>>25257296
>6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

Phone and internet but also all public transit and automobiles. The state ensures those who need an automobile for work have one, and that public transit is available for all other purposes

>7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Shares of corporations owned by capitalists and all the property those shares signify, revert to the state upon their death. But the state is also to invest their tax revenue in factories and agriculture for socialized production.

>8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Employment is a guaranteed right, but anyone, including capitalists, who refuses to take employment they would qualify for or training for employment they would then qualify for, is not entitled to state benefits.

>9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Expansion of housing in order to alleviate the cramped environment of cities and allow for more healthy communities.

>10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

Free primary education but also higher education including working adults having higher education as a portion of their workday

Does communism except the ideal of quantity?

>>25257306
accept* sorry

>>25257306
Commodification, according to Das Kapital, is the brute transformation of all qualitative value into quantitative value, and capitalism will not rest so long as there is any qualitative value which has not besn utterly transformed into a purely quantitative one

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>>25257296

I wish /pol/ and /leftypol/ would have gay discord slapfights on some otther board.

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>>25257437

>>25257452
>extremist sees extremism everywhere
It's a symptom of your psychosis.

>>25257497
>you're heckin XTREME

>>25257296
>1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
There will be a single land owner which is the state. Land is means of production so it makes sense.

>2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
That doesn't sound that despotic now but pretty unusual in 1848. Doesn't sound like the worst thing.

>3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
This is somwhat contradictory with (1.) If a revolution occurs, expropriation of property can happen, and if the the state has the power to appropriate property, then there's no point in declaring the abolition of inheritance. Remember this is Germany in the 1840s and they're mostly talking about land which operates as capital.

>4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Basically it means we just won the revolution and if you resist or leave then we'll take your stuff yeah.

>5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Exclusive monopoly on banking, money, credit, yeah.

>6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
They didn't have phones and the internet then but it follows logically that the state would own the newspapers, the phone systems, the internet, etc. We'll be the source of your information, the state is your novelist. Whatever you count as communication we're gonna be centralizing it in the hands of the state, and if you try to get from one place to another you'll have to deal with us.

>7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Marx was definitely a go-go industrial guy yeah.

>8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
It's interesting to think about what that means. Collective farming? That's straight-up Stalin. China tried to do this too. Forced labor for the state.

>9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Industrial model of agriculture. Also the state assigning where you'll go and engaging in some wild-ass idealized project where we'll distribute people equally across a continent if we're Russia or the U.S. (I guess)

>10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
Thumbs up on abolishing child labor. Also sounds like apprenticeships in industry (very German!)

Appreciating communist literature is appropriate considering it is an antiquarian interest.

>>25257713
Communism is inevitable.

>>25257717
Provided you wring out the liberals and the Marxists. The purified communism left would be so desirable, of course we'd say it was inevitable.

>>25257709

>and if the the state has the power to appropriate property, then there's no point in declaring the abolition of inheritance.

It is a lot less likely to cause civil war or insurgency because wealthy people have plenty of time to adjust their lifestyles

>if you try to get from one place to another you'll have to deal with us.

Already the case, the state owns all roads and highways and sidewalks

>Forced labor for the state.
It just means expansion of employment by the state.

>>25257709
>There will be a single land owner which is the state
What could possibly go wrong?/
Good God, you "people" are fucking stupid.

>>25257449
Yeah

>>25257800
Privatizing all of resources, or the tragedy of the commons, is a lot worse than Georgism

>>25257296
lol hi planks bro
you did not mention in your synopsis the explicit statement that these are not 'planks' but likely actions that marx and engels thought the most advanced societies would enact. its a small but critical distinction and a distinction that marks the whole. it is pliable, unrigid, variable, but against capital and against explotation.

>>25257709
see, this is the problem with plankies and the people that read them. theres a whole section where he talks about people owning propery. so there is no 'single state property owner'

>>25257815
I reject your lobotomized false dichtomy.

>>25257825
That isn't a dichotomy. It is three options:

A: privatiziation
B: tragedy of the commons
C: socialization

>>25257821
Did you read the OP? Specifically the second and third paragraphs?

>>25257828
I also reject your false trichotomy. Even if it were, and it's not, the browning if the commons would warrant tragedy.

>>25257833
dont respond to me, respond to the anon half reading and reposting the plankie posts

>>25257842
Keep trusting capitalism, I am sure if you bomb enough brown people, Israel will reward you with a medal some day

>>25257800
I wasn't literally endorsing this, just playing around.

>>25257821
>theres a whole section where he talks about people owning propery.
Yeah bro, let's just ignore the logical conclusion of giving the state control over everything, and pretend that will happen.Just like the state will eventually wither away too, right? retard
dumb shitskin
>>25257817
Anywhere communism was implemented has led to mass exploitation and death, bro. It’s the opposite.
Why do you think the existing communist countries abandoned Marxism and went with capitalism
You're stupid nigga, do you even work

>>25257985
>listen, my friend, a corporation won't hurt you or exploit you, a state does that, that's why healthcare has to stay privatized

>>25258011
In Communist China, corporations have to install suicide nets because workers don't have in rights there.
That's what communism to leads, corporations having power over you.

>>25258011
Capitalist countries healthcare systems always outperformed healthcare systems in communist countries bud
Singapore and South Korea have way better healthcare systems than socialist shit holes like North, China and Cuba

>>25258043
China has better worker rights than the west

That's where Dengism leads. I would say he actually took the country away from communism whereas Xi was given a mandate to squeeze that liberalizing faction out, or at least their influence

>>25258051
Cuba and North Korea are under sanctions from America with the intention of wrecking them. America actually has an army planted on North Korea's doorstep with their guns aimed at them itching to invade

>>25257296
the point of communism is to hold women in common, and marx said that the bourgeoisie already abolished private women with divorce and adultery

>>25258067
Get better material

>>25257847
Keep trying to force your false trichotomy. I'm sure if you say it enough reality will bend to your delusion.

>>25258064
>China has better worker rights than the west
That's an inversion of reality. In China, workers don't have the right to strike or form an independent trade union. Strikes are regularly suppressed there. They can't even use the internet freely due to China's Great Firewall, and suicide prevention nets are widespread. Suicide rates are high, and the 996 work work is the norm. China's healthcare system is largely private, and Xi frequently talks about the need to cut social welfare for workers. They even abolished the "iron rice bowl" program, which once provided workers with guaranteed housing, food, and employment
>That's what Dengism
That's just what communism leads to, as every former communist country is like that. You're suppose to be a historical materialist, but believe the history of a country isn't influenced by the actions and failures of its past? LMAO.
This is just the typical 'IT WASN'T REAL COMMUNISM' cope by a job-less bum. If you think it’s so great for workers, you should live in there instead of living in the west, you degenerate. Stop larping.
>Cuba and North Korea are under sanctions from America with the intention of wrecking them.
They were shit hole, struggling countries even before the sanctions. Chinese officials primarily blame Cuba’s economic system rather than attributing its poverty to sanctions. The 1989 revolutions prove that communism leads to failure. Even the Chinese realized this and intelligently changed course. You are just a dumb ass and not a serious person.

>>25258094
Yes Deng cut the iron rice bowl and introduced heavy liberalization

The retirement age in China is 60. I don't think you have ever written anything Xi has written

Historical materialism suggests that mistakes are overly compensated for, leading to another swing that needs correction. Here excessively liberalization obviously needs correction

>shithole

I see blocks of people living in tents in America.

>>25258094
>This is just the typical 'IT WASN'T REAL COMMUNISM'
But you just spent an entire paragraph trying to prove that China doesn't practice communism. So which is it?

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>>25258103
>Yes Deng cut the iron rice bowl and introduced heavy liberalization
Because 80% of China's population lived in poverty due to Mao's policies, it wasn't Deng's fault that communism under Mao plunged millions into desperation, pushing some to extreme measures such as cannibalism.
>Xi
I don't think you've ever read anything about Chinese history because you glorify Mao's poverty and starvation while living a cushy, privileged life under capitalism. It's no wonder modern China puts Maoists in jail. You're a retard that doesn't work or contribute to society but thinks your opinion matters when it does not and never will.
>I see blocks of people living in tents in America.
In China, 30 million people live in caves. It is common for them to live in what is called 'ant colony' buildings, which are notorious for being infested with rats and frequently collapse, killing hundreds of people. I know more about China than you, kid. Don't even start with me.

>>25257985
ok, plankie.

>>25258043
the manifesto manifestly critiques shitty socialism. no doubt china would be amongst the criticisms, which is why you read the manifesto, dumbass.

>>25258067
yes, marx criticizes bourgie morals. he does not call "women in common" as that has already been achieved by the bourgies.

>>25258113
I wrote at length about why your utopian vision of communism failed in China and why they ultimately moved on to something better, something that avoided the famines, poverty and cannibalism that is intrinsic to communism in practice and reality.

>>25258121
>>25258120
Marx was a parasite who leeched off his parents and his sugar daddy Engels
Why should anyone care what he had to say
He spent most of his life being an alcoholic, being a terrible father, and he cheated on his wife

>>25258121
Marx never owned a business, worked in economics, held a government position, organized a revolution, or passed a bill. He was just a shitty journalist, nobody cared about him until Lenin brought his corpse back from the grave. Even modern communist countries don’t follow or care about what he had to say because his ideas are terrible and don’t work.
Mainstream economics finds him to be a joke. Every theory he professed was refuted by communism in practice in the 20th century by states that followed his ideology.
You're troon coming to 4chan to shill some jewish guy you dick ride for no intelligent

>>25258144
The paradoxical "no one cares" melty

>>25258124
>why they ultimately moved on to something better,
Corporations having suicide prevention nets? Blockage of internet? No strikes or trade unions?

It seems that anti-communists are sophists who want to have their cake and eat it too. Something bad happens under communism, it's communism's fault. Something bad happens under capitalism, it's also communism's fault? Something good happens under communism, it's because they became capitalist. You can't be expected to be consistent.

>>25258151
>Be ESL Indian in new Delhi
>Thinks "Nobody cared about Marx until Lenin" means nobody cares about him now
Giving third world trash, like you, access to the internet was a mistake

>>25258161
>>25258144
Here's another example of your sophistry. Communist countries don't follow or care about Marx. But also communist countries are proof that Marx's ideas failed.

When you are in a bad faith dishonest discourse challenge and your opponent is an anti-communist

>>25258132
the same way bernini was a parasite leeching off his patron, the pope?

>>25258144
he started a newspaper apparently. so, uh, WRONG.

>>25258161
They don't have famines anymore, they've lifted millions out of poverty, allowed people to practice their religion, and given Chinese people the ability to raise a family. Comparatively, yes, that's better than Marxism and communism, which led to starvation, famines, cannibalism, and the Red Guards shooting anyone with an education. How is this even debatable

>>25258174
As I said, trying to have your cake and eat it too

>>25258169
>Sophistry is when you point out communist countries abandoned Marxism for capitalism because their ideas don't work
Yeah and? Even communists themselves realized that classless, moneyless, and stateless societies are utopian fantasies, bro. How does that help you? What's even is your point, troon?

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>>25258132
>>25258144
>Marx was a parasite who leeched off his parents and his sugar daddy Engels
>He spent most of his life being an alcoholic, being a terrible father, and he cheated on his wife
>Marx never owned a business, worked in economics, held a government position, organized a revolution, or passed a bill.
putting aside the question of whether we should care about a thinker's biography at all, it's not in the least surprising to me that the framework for a thought that would transcend capitalist modernity would come from someone who in his life was so out of place within capitalist modernity, someone so disconnected from that world's usual forms of practice and habits of mind, unplugged from its closed circuits of desire and satisfaction, someone built for another world and a higher task.

>>25258178
>Cake and eat it too
Pretty sure that's you holding onto your unfeasible utopian fantasies and being upset whenever someone points out it's a failure in practice because they know basic history. I'm sorry you can't indoctrinate me, or most people here, with bullshit because I'm not an illiterate peasant, the typical person is persuaded by your bullshit propaganda

>>25258179

Lol either this faggot has zero reading comprehension or is deliberately trying to pretend that he doesn't understand his own sophistry when it's pointed out.

We get it. You hate communism. Your pathetic little mind has created a short circuited mechanism where communism is always "le bad" because everything bad under communism is directly communism's fault but everything good under communism is aKsHuAlLy capitalism. I would feel sorry for such a non critical propaganda infused state of mind that cannot even see the fallacy in it's own hypocrisy.

>>25258180
Marx was from a privileged family. All his problems in life were self-inflicted. Marxism is an ideology primarily for petite bourgeois, not workers. Commies don't know a fucking thing about work because most of the time they do, or they look down on workers for not being communists

>>25258180
nicely said.

and that is a bit from some adorno?

>>25258201
they dont because they do? or they do because they dont?

you are a divisive ideological too of the man. sorry bro.

>>25258200
We get that you're an unemployed faggot who spends most of your time on 4chan because your ideology is a utopian fantasy. That's why you're debating me, on this basket-weaving form, instead of organizing workers. You're just a pseudo-intellectual who thinks you're the next Lenin when you are worthless and a nobody. Keep crying about people over the internet, bud, while people raise families and go work. You are of no importance.

>>25258201
Every communist movement ever has always boiled from ground up with workers (and in my country's case, farmers) fighting back against accumulation of capital in hands of the few.

Anti-marcists do not have a single. And I repeat A SINGLE counter argument against any of the points Marx actually makes. So they must ALWAYS resort to sophistry. Like character assasinating Marx based on his background because they simply do not have ANY rebuttal to the logic of communism

>>25258161
This. If we went by the same metrics that people use to come up with the “Soviet Union killed 100 million people/some other arbitrary number during its ~70 years of existence”, then capitalism in Western Europe and North America has already reached that number in merely ten years.

>>25258144
Never mention that Keynes was a millionaire by today’s standards, that von Mises was a nobleman and an advisor to the Austrian throne for a part of his life, that Thatcher was…

No, attack Marx for doing what a good many philosophers and social scientists did in the 19th century - seek funding from academia or friends, and live in basically poverty for doing so. “Mainstream economics” has no direction to speak of, only numbers and trends on plots. It is entirely at the mercy and manipulation of current politics and has a horrible neglect of the political, sociological and historical foundations of the institutions and markets it describes; in turn politics, sociology and historical facts are all used to manipulate policies and the economy. All mainstream economists do is make futile attempts to be purely descriptive and statistical despite it being abundantly clear politicians can and will hold them by the balls due to said descriptivism and the tendency to “lie using statistics”.

>>25258208
>muh utopian fantasy

Lol amerimutts and their retarded little slogans, deliberately created to shut down discussion and critical thought so that they do the have to directly engage Marxism and communism will never not be funny.

What is it about actual Marxist theory that scares you so. Do you not sleep well knowing that you don't have a single good point against it's logic?

>>25258216
>This. If we went by the same metrics that people use to come up with the “Soviet Union killed 100 million people/some other arbitrary number during its ~70 years of existence”, then capitalism in Western Europe and North America has already reached that number in merely ten years.

In my country alone 175 million people died out of a single famine that transpired under colonialist capitalism. And that's even not the only famine. This number alone exceeds the fake 100 gorrillion communist death count.

The communist deaths are mostly attributed to famines in early days of Soviet union and CCP. What it tells me is that these countries which have had famines for millenia developed, after some missteps, food security under communism.

>>25258217
all of western capitalist history is literally "uh no i want more"
there has never been a good argument against lifting up the people.

Commies are so pathetic they invented their own Wikipedia because Wikipedia wasn't left-enough for them. https://en.prolewiki.org/ Imagine being such a loser you have to create safe spaces to protect your ideology.
>Never mention that Keynes was a millionaire by today’s standards, that von Mises was a nobleman and an advisor to the Austrian throne for a part of his life, that Thatcher was…
And? All of those people actually worked on real-world economics. They are honestly more intelligent, more informed about economics than someone like Marx, or Marxists, who never managed an economy in any capacity. If I want my car fixed, I speak to a mechanic. I don’t listen or ask a poet. Expertise is important, and necessary, in any serious field. I doubt you’ve ever done any professional work where credentials mattered.
>then capitalism in Western Europe and North America has already reached that number in merely ten years.
No reasonable person thinks this way or believes this. It’s nonsensical. Whenever the deaths of capitalism are brought up, you blame idiotic things like car accidents or people starving Africa people capitalist countries send food aid too. When the deaths of communism come up, we actually point to real policy failures. Even if it were true, and let's be honest, it isn’t, this argument is irrelevant because, in practice, communism has produced worse outcomes. It’s not even a good argument from a consequential standpoint., or a moral one.

>>25258223
>In my country alone 175 million people died out of a single famine that transpired under colonialist capitalism.
Colonialism and capitalism are oxymorons, and this sounds like jeet bullshit, so I was right to call you out for being a jeet
Go back to India with your bullshit

>>25257296
>>25257297
Go back to your containment site, dumb tranny.
>>>/bunkerchan/

>>25258294
>Commies are so pathetic they invented their own Wikipedia because Wikipedia wasn't left-enough for them. https://en.prolewiki.org/ Imagine being such a loser you have to create safe spaces to protect your ideology.

Lmfao this has to be bait. No one is this retarded

>>25258294
>posts on 4chan

>>25258298
>Colonialism and capitalism are oxymorons
Modern capitalism was literally born out of colonial expansion and slavery. Modern international markets would not exist without colonial trade networks evolving internationally.

Also so far I haven't been called a "jeet" so it must be someone else you are talking about.

>>25258300
>>25258308
Imagine being such a loser you invented your wikipedia and 4chan because people there made fun of you

>>25258318
You do realise that I imagine you drooling from your mouth as you typed that sentence. That would be appropriate to the belief that 100s of topic specific wikis exist because people who made them were afraid of Wikipedia lmao.

What down syndrome does to a nigga

>>25258316
>Modern capitalism was literally born out of colonial expansion and slavery.
That’s some Howard Zinn bullshit that no one takes seriously. Capitalism made slavery and colonialism irrelevant because the generalization of wage labor was cheaper than imperialism and owning slaves. You don’t even know what you’re talking about. Colonialism wasn’t even profitable for most nations. You're a fucking retard lmao.
If colonialism and slavery enriched countries, then Africa would be the richest continent in the world because they practiced those things for far longer than anyone else. Yet this is not the case.

>>25258318
dur dur le dur le hur dur
>pretends hes holding the door

>>25258333
>zinn
>bulllshit
DROPPED

>>25258333
your post is an argument for the nationalization of resources, ie communism.

just thought you'd like to know.

>>25258326
You’re such a fucking loser, you made an alternative Wikipedia because no one takes you seriously outside of your safety spaces on leftypol. Dude, you're not fooling anyone with this non-sense, you dumb nigger. Try being more intelligent.

>>25258223
>In my country alone 175 million people died
brown therefore opinion invalidated

>>25258341
Nationalization worked so well in Venezuela

>>25258348
nationalization has been harried by superpowers for over a century, out of fear.

you will never have the high ground in any legit argument because of it.

deal with it.exe

>>25258355
Go to your DSA book club and check your white privilege

the most annoying thing about communists is their incessant demands to take them seriously
stop posting 24/7 and do your little revolution already

>>25258363
wow, i never thought id be one of those "not an argument" posters but damn thats not an argument.

so, uh, i guess i accept your concession.

>>25258367
ok cool. which capitalist hell hole are you posting from, so we can schedule this thing?

>>25258372
do it in your own country first

>>25258333
>Capitalism made slavery and colonialism irrelevant because the generalization of wage labor was cheaper than imperialism and owning slaves.

You seem to have trouble grasping the idea of continous historical development. As I said modern international markets, it's specific form of trade relations and in effect modern Western economic hegemony would not exist without the history of colonialism, period. Capitalism itself, as it exists today was born out of it. It transformed yes, just like everything transforms with time. You seem too blinded by ideology to see this.

You can see the both the beginning and the end of slavery as different phases of capitalism's development. For example slave capitalism was all about using slave labour to produce non-subsistence cash crops to sell on the international markets (American south). While worker Capitalism was all about wage labour in a more industrial setting (American North.) As Marx points out, the specific material discourse of economy determines it's ideological discourse. Advanced forms of industrial capitalism may have ended slavery but itself it was hsitorically born out of the slave capitalism that preceded it. It was the slave class which formed (and still forms) a bulk of the working class. While it's the slave owning class that historically evolved into Capitalist elite.

>Colonialism wasn’t even profitable for most nations.
Who's the one being retarded now? I am certainly not the one denying basic historical facts here.

>If colonialism and slavery enriched countries, then Africa would be the richest continent in the world because they practiced those things for far longer than anyone else.
Did Africans colonise europe, asia and americas? Did Africans preside over historical development of international trade routes and market systems. Do Africans use wage labour and resources from one continent to flood another continent with commodities? Are Africans supporting the regime in Israel to control middle eastern oil? Did africans preside over complete economic plunder of India?

>>25258375
i am legion.

>>25258347
Except it's not an opinion it's a fact. It's not my fault that capitalism has lead to more deaths than communism. And it's not anyone's brown skin's fault that facts are not on the side of anti-communists.

>>25258043
there is no definition of "communism" that would make China a communist country - it has a stock market ffs
it's obviously a capitalist country with heavy keynesian policies

they only use communism as an art movement for government propaganda

>>25258381
BASED

>>25258381
That isn't a fact unless you consider reality itself "capitalism". Abolishing capital itself would do nothing to prevent war or famine or change the distribution of resources and talent, you are a retarded cultist.

>>25258391
>it has a stock market ffs
it's obviously a capitalist country
LMAOOOOOOOO

>>25258381
fact: you are brown

>>25258377
How can you write so much and say so little? You said nothing of value, besides repeating more Howard Zinn bullshit.
>As Marx points out,
Nobody gives a fuck what Marx thought or his useless conjecture. He was wrong. As we have pointed out, the revolutions of 1989 made anything he had to say or anything irrelevant and obsolete. Stop wasting our time with useless erudition and try to have an original thought, faggot.
>Who's the one being retarded now?
You? Obviously. You think colonialism was possible and responsible for the wealth of capitalist countries when African countries still practice slavery and are still dirt poor. There are actual studies that show family members of Chinese monarchy, royal family that are richer today than peasants born under Mao Zedong, despite losing their wealth. Your theories do not even pass the stiff test.
>Did Africans colonise europe, asia and americas?
Africa and Arabic countries were the biggest factors of slavery and colonialism. You do not seem to know know anything about world history or why the Crusades and reconquest of Spain happened. Like I said, faggot, get your history from someone who isn't Howard Zinn.

>>25258043
in capitalist america they had to wait for the shirtwaist fire to stop locking workers in buildings.
fuck you, ignorant cunt. you re on the side of the people or you are not.