Old thread hit the bump limit. Conclusions from the previous thread include:1) Marxism is objectively correct.2) Racists are retarded.Marx demonstrated how changes to our mode of producing goods during the industrial revolution led to a non-stop cycle of spiralling exploitation with the market negatively affecting every aspect of your life. Each working day roughly half of your work is for your boss and this extra wealth you have generated is used to fuck you over six ways from Sunday. Shills will try to make this a left/right shitfest but Marxism is beyond left/right - it’s science.
>>25271964>it’s science.
>>25271964> Marx demonstrated how changes to our mode of producing goods during the industrial revolution led to a non-stop cycle of spiralling exploitationIt’s the other way around comrade. Early manufacturing was limited to the available technology and then competition led to true industry and the factory. The crucial change was not industry per se but free wage labor.
>>25271964>Each working day roughly half of your work is for your bossWould you say that surplus value comes from the difference between the exchange value of the labour power and the actual value of the labour as it becomes the commodity's exchange value?>but Marxism is beyond left/right - it’s science.That would still make it a left/right shitfest because the right does not believe in science.
>>25271964Lol go away nigga
>>25271975Ty for the correction gomrade. I did know this but I wrote clumsily.
>>25271976>Would you say that surplus value comes from the difference between the exchange value of the labour power and the actual value of the labour as it becomes the commodity's exchange value?Yes. The value of labor power is how much it costs to maintain the laborer according to his standing in society. Capitalism rests on exploiting a gap between how much the worker costs the employer and what the worker actually produces. The problem isn’t surplus as such - we need surpluses to grow. The problem is that it’s owned by random retards who think they’re better than you because they run a fleet of hot dog waggons or whatever it is. The consequences of this are quite far-reaching and include the breakdown of relations of the sexes as women are pushed into work. The cornerstone of capitalist ideology is that we are all Individuals who ought to selfishly pursue our own happiness. If that bothers you, if you understand how much this idea is destroying us, then you need to read Capital, regardless of whether you see yourself as ‘right’ or ‘left’.
Why is there a resurgence of interest in Marx? Did the left FINALLY realise that intersectionality was glorified liberalism and that they've wasted over a decade with this shit and inadvertently annoyed people into voting for fascists?
>>25271999>The cornerstone of capitalist ideology is that we are all Individuals who ought to selfishly pursue our own happinessIn the most capitalism infused western societies like America, it is known that parents charge rent to their own kids. And of course with no fault divorce women walk away with a man's half wealth when the financial incentive says so. Family be damned.
>>25272005Snatching children away from their parents because they did not let their kids transition was a bit over stepping
>>25271964It's kind of boring to have been born after Marx solved philosophy and political theory, like everything since is just kind of coping and running in circles
>>25271964>1) objectively correct.About WHAT? Why dishonest? It has been concluded that his political program was DISASTROUSLY wrong. We have had to live with his acolytes derailment of the revolution to this very day. ADMIT THE FAILURE.
>>25272005It’s just massive disillusionment and misery all around leading to critical thinking. I read Marx because his name was on a list; I thought his arguments would be a mix of retardation and insight, but he turned out to be a gold mine. Reading Capital is like an ant realizing he is an ant. And it scares the shit out of them and that’s why they shill propaganda about it.
>>25272005The New Left was explicitly supported by the CIA and astroturfed by them
Fichte was the true godfather of Marxism, not Hegel. Fichte:1) Could see liberalism was evil and a mere stage to something better.2) Calls for a revolution and even advises his readers on how to bring it about.3) Invented dialectic.There is no economics in Fichte, it’s all autistic metaphysics. But it’s high time people recognize Fichte as Marx’s true predecessor, not the hyper-boozh, liberal Hegel.
>>25271964Another marxist shill thread pushing their poverty cult. Marxists should be more upfront with the fact that they believe in the progression of material conditions finally resulting in the final stage of the evolution of humanity (communism, a stateless, classless, moneyless society), so that people understand how retarded they are. Instead they'll obfuscate and never tell you what their intention or vision actually is because they know no one will take their delusions seriously.
>>25271964I don't understand one thing. Can someone who has read Das clarify?One anon suggested that different labours can have different values based on subjectivity. He said that's use value. But I thought that it is exchange value that corresponds to nature and that has nothing to do with subjectivity. He also rejected the idea that a car is more expensive than a cake because more human labour went into making the car. But that makes perfect sense to me.
>>25271964>Capitalism? Yeah, not a big fan.
>>25272055>*Corresponds to labour
>>25271964Wasn't Marx racist?So Marx is retarded then?Good to know.
Marx's critique of capitalism is invaluable. Every critic of his in these threads only ever focus on the failed attempts to inaugurate communism, getting away from the real flaws of capitalism and grievances expressed by its losers. They'll never give you a direct answer to a question such as: "What can be done to prevent wealth from centralizing into the hands of a few corporations, snuffing out competition by bribing them or lobbying the government for less rules and regulation?"
>>25272065> They'll never give you a direct answer to a question such as: "What can be done to prevent wealth from centralizing into the hands of a few corporations, snuffing out competition by bribing them or lobbying the government for less rules and regulation?"Look at how Saudi Arabia solved that: you have a king sitting there who’ll stomp out or nationalize any corporation which gets too powerful.
>>25271964>1) Marxism is objectively correct.Okay>2) Racists are retarded.No you‘re retarded
>>25272065people are just destined to ruin and squander everything theyve been given
>Marxism is objectively correct.xD le epic troll of forchinz!!
>>25272055Marx make it clear in chapter one that he isn't talking about this or that labor but "socially average labor"Use value in chapter one is given as non social and social. Non social is like air, there is use value but no labor value. Social uss value is when you do labor for someone else, be it out of love or compulsion or whatever. This confers SOCIAL use value which is gauged by socially average labor time. This however is still a qualitative value.Capitalism takes this value and *commodifies* it, which Marx says is precisely the transformation of qualitative value, social use value, into quantitative value, i.e. exchange
>>25272051>there is no economics in FichteWhat about Closed Commercial State? Or Foundations of Natural Right?
>>25272065Unironically religion, specifically unitarian rationalist Christianity, is the only way. Enough people need a strong moral core (which Marxists don't have) so that they don't partake in obviously corrupt and barbaric institutions.
>>25272076Yeah but it’s completely a priori. He does talk about economics but he doesn’t approach it empirically. Marx did the hard, boring, empirical work.>>25272069We can all see morphological differences in race and differences in behavior as well but this is not genetic inferiority because black people are not related to one another to any meaningful degree, nor are whites. It’s a very simple illusion. You can talk about Irish people or Igbo people, they may well have iq or behavioral differences, but white and black is nonsense. It’s a useful ideology for someone who isn’t you.
>>25272081>unironically a retarded belief system based on magic that no one takes seriously anymore except very old people
>>25272097The Global South (proletariat) in Africa and South Asia and the Middle East are religious to the extreme. Like how can you say no one takes religion seriously anymore when Islamist groups are conquering West Africa as we speak
>>25272081Okay well now we have a bunch of dominionists, who support Trump ironically, using the kind of rhetoric you're using now by saying that Marxists lack moral values to consolidate power for their own ends.
>>25272074>This confers SOCIAL use value which is gauged by socially average labor time. How do you reconcile socially average labour with use value. The latter is entirely subjective (unless I'm wrong). And the former will depend entirely on the labour it takes on average.
>>25271964Wrong website faggot>kys
>>25272111Marx did not understand the precise nature of this connection, none of the classical economists did. So he handwaves with ‘socially necessary labor’. It does not affect his theory one iota.
>>25272092>Yeah but it’s completely a priorias it should be. do you even german idealism bro?
>>25272111As I said, Marx distinguishes use value in Chapter One. The first, asocial, has zero to do with socially average labor. For example if you are do something for yourself, socially average labor has no bearing on it. Use value only becomes predicated on socially average labor when is social use value, production or service done for another, because then it is a social activity and the socially average labor imparts meaningfulness. Remember "socially average" can mean societies as small as two persons
>>25272124Fichte actually argues that they are two sides of the same coin. One day I will meet an anon who actually suffered through Fichte’s speculative works, who makes Hegel look like Thomas the Tank Engine, and then I’ll finally die.
>>25272092>but white and black is nonsense.My daily experience says otherwise.
>>25272092>white and black is nonsenseBut I thought whites are settlers and blacks are proles
>>25272150Was probably true in some places and times like Haiti but never universally
>>25272150Lol. There was no slavery in early virginia because they had no legal categories for slaves. Black and irish ‘servants’ violently rebelled together and they invented racial categories.
>>25272156i'm calling bullshit
>>25272156I‘m not calling bullshit but their having had a common interest that one time has no bearing on that I would feel at home in an Irish neighborhood today but hate living around blacks.
>>25272097>unironically a retarded belief system based on magic that no one takes seriouslyThat's Marxism
>>25272110Yes but they're spiritual Marxists, aka ideologues, only interested in consolidating power for themselves, lacking the aforementioned moral core
>>25272065>"What can be done to prevent wealth from centralizing into the hands of a few corporations, snuffing out competition by bribing them or lobbying the government for less rules and regulation?"Abolish democracy and centralize wealth-oops! I meant to say political power in a Vanguard party who will steward the resources of the society for the sake of the rest of the proletariat and usher in Gommunism
>>25271964> if i say objective and science and conclusions enough times my enemies will be confused
>>25272166Marxism does not deny that blacks suck on average it just questions why this is so. I can see a ‘white trash’ phenotype - you know exactly the physical traits and behaviors I mean. Are they all related to each other forming a subspecies? Nope. Now how could this happen?
>>25272100The less developed they are, the more seriously they take religion. But this is the wrong board if you want to do missionary work there>>25272167Thank you, Dr Prager, how insightful.
>>25272152Anon please, I’ve lurked in enough Sakai threads to know the leftist approach to this
>>25272189>Sakai is taken seriously in ANY Marxist party on the planet
>>25272183Marxists are blind to the the obvious fact that they are the very evil they hate. The foremost communist in America is Larry Fink
>>25272185>I can see a ‘white trash’ phenotype - you know exactly the physical traits and behaviors I mean.I fuckin love West Virginia, man. But I hate Atlanta and Baltimore.
>>25272188>The less developed they are, the more seriously they take religionThis applies to Marxism if we're talking moral and emotional development. There are scientific statistics that back this
>>25272197[yawn]
<this many replies on lit>Guaranteed glowie thread.
>>25271964Marxism is pretentious intellectual posturing unless you're willing to actually go through with it and forcefully drag the bourgeoisie and retarded peasants along with you without any regard for their opinion or rights.t.Papa Joe
>>25271964You forgot 3.) Marx had a Fat Body jusl like you.
>>25272188>The less developed they are, the more seriously they take religion. The Gulf States? Iran? Heck, American conservatives? It’s deluded to think religious movements can be handwaved away like this when they have defeated Marxist/socialist movements time and time again. And don’t think that populations will secularize over time, the opposite has happened in the Muslim world.
>>25272243I would say religion in the gulf states holds much much less sway in urbanized areas, its pockets are mainly ruralIn Iran, religion is associated with anticolonialism and the revolution against the shah so it is a more unique situation, opposition to religion tends to align with Israel and America. Their political system also depends far more on religion than any other in the world does except the Vatican
Genuine question: where are the Canadian Marxists? Where are the left-wing writers in Canada, there was a labour movement here and even Communist MPs but kind of fizzled out after WWII.
>Marxism is beyond left/right - it’s science.genuinely what do they mean when they say this
>>25271964>Old thread hit the bump limit.but not the OP-dick-sucking limit
>>25272336It fizzled out after WWII because America was panicked about western states going Marxists and explicitly funded non Marxist leftism as a competition throughout the world, Canada included
>>25272119My own understanding used to be that socially average labour is directly translated into exchange value. And use value is a completely independent phenomena. >>25272127I understand what socially average means. My issue is with it's connection to use value.Let's say I harvest a batch of apples. One person may want it but another person may not. The labour I perform to provide apples to those who need it remains constant nonetheless (which is also the social average)Now in my understanding, the "use value" qualitative is individual and subjective and would entirely depend on how much a particular consumer wants the apples. But, then this use value cannot be predicated on socially necessary labour, since, as I pointed out the labour remains constant. Therefore the use value is subjective and independent. Thus the "value" of any quanta of socially necessary labour becomes predicated on two variables.1. Use value of per unit socially necessary labour performed.2. The actual quanta of labour.And as I said, value 1 i.e. per unit use value is completely subjective. But then how do we arrive at a universal measure for the individual subjective? I guess we "average it out" maybe
>>25271964>Each working day roughly half of your work is for your boss and this extra wealth you have generated is used to fuck you over six ways from Sunday.I work as a software engineer. Yeah probably most of the money goes to the CEO but that's because he's the one out there selling the software. Without him I'd just be creating software that nobody uses. I have no people skills so I wouldn't be able, nor would I want to, do what he does. I'm not bitter about it, it's just the way it is.
>>25271964>1) Marxism is objectively correct.>2) Racists are retarded.But you are racist. Do you believe that monkeys, for example, are included in your Marxist project? Clearly not. They have no share in the Utopia. And it's because of their race, their genetics, that they will always live in a state of war, predation, and scarcity. Ok, so if you believe that about monkeys, why is it unreasonable to say the same thing about human races?
>>25272713>Yeah probably most of the money goes to the CEO When they say "boss" they mean the owner not another employee. Though CEOs do belong to the class of labour aristocrats who come from the same bunch overall. Their exorbitant packages being siphoned off from the grunt developer. >but that's because he's the one out there selling the software. That is still labour. Owners do not get to siphon off workers' output because they are performing the labour of sales or executive decision making. They get to do it because they own the business.>Without him I'd just be creating software that nobody usesThat is just absurd. If nobody finds that software useful then it wouldn't get sold to begin with. >. I have no people skills so I wouldn't be able, nor would I want to, do what he does. That is still labour. In many corporations the sales part is not even handled by the owners but more grunt workers
>>25272065>Marxism is objectively correct>But you can't prove that by uses examples every time it's been triedAlso,>They'll never give you a direct answer to a question such as: "What can be done to prevent wealth from centralizing into the hands of a few corporations, snuffing out competition by bribing them or lobbying the government for less rules and regulation?"You don't think corruption existed in socialist countries? Lmao.
>>25272920>You don't think corruption existed in socialist countries?The things that are considered "corruption" in socialist countries or in general socialist institutions like the government, are a deviation from the ideal of public control and public service. Capitalism and private sector has no such ideal to begin with. Because there the word of the private owner is the law. Therefore the corruption and exploitation that is pointed at in socialist institutions reach their final form in Capitalism, where what would be considered illegal corruption under socialism, is now legal matter of course.It is no wonder that the corrupt elites of USSR made the way for capitalist post Soviet states turning into oligarchies.
>>25272924>The things that are considered "corruption" in socialist countries or in general socialist institutions like the government, are a deviation from the ideal of public control and public service.Bribery was rampant in socialist countries, used to bypass the enforcement of laws regarding things like stealing public funds or paying workers' wages. It wasn't a deviation; it was the norm. This was largely because you could shoot anybody who complained about it. Under capitalism, fraud is easily exposed by influences on Twitter, like those championed by people such as Nick Shirley, and is dealt with by the government. The fact that you put "corruption" in quotes is because in socialist countries, you just pretend fraud doesn't exist. Your ideology doesn't allow you to accept when you're wrong.
I agree with a lot of Marx's critiques on the nature of capital and read Das Kapital a while back but I just cant bring myself to support socialism in any serious way or even take part in political activism muchFor communism to truly be achieved Marx himself admits that it would take A LOT of time, look at how long the Soviet Union lasted and they barely made any true progress in achieving it. Most of his pseudo prophecies were highly accurate but comparing to how long it took for feudalism to finally change over to capitalism im just not really willing to spend all my life fighting for something that aint even gonna come close to being true in my lifetime and with short term shake ups. Im upper middle class and im beyond comfortable with my position in life living mostly off charging rent and studying stuff at university so I dont really have a strong inclination to political extremism, most changes in the government dont affect me much regardless. I just fail to see the point in spending so much of your life getting worked up over marxist theory and changing the world when you could just find a cute girl to kiss or go cave diving or something
>>25272005There isn't. Trannypolers have always spammed and brigaded 4chan.
>>25272736>When they say "boss" they mean the owner not another employee.I work in a startup, I bet the CEO & his family own most of it. So am I being exploited or not?>That is just absurd. If nobody finds that software useful then it wouldn't get sold to begin with.Sales is pretty much 99% of software. You can have a good product but without sales it's impossible.>In many corporations the sales part is not even handled by the owners but more grunt workersIdk they bring in investment and make high level decisions
>>25271964>it’s science
>>25272948omg takes a lot of time guess ill just goon to anime
>>25272700Well I might be full of shit anon, take a look ar the relevant passages for yourself. The way Marx speaks of this is pretty confusing. But remember too how later in the book he says something like, “because money is labor we can express the theory of surplus value in a more popular manner by saying the boss is stealing money the worker has made.” Marx’s theory of value is metaphysical; it’s about what commodities actually are qua commodities. So to the rest of the question Marx simply did not know how individual subjective choices become objective market prices. The gap you see is a gap of ignorance.
>>25271964Servitude never persists in a society whose diverse elements have merged to any degree. Long before this amalgamation reaches its perfection, the situation changes and then disappears. Even less likely is it that half of a race could say to the other half, "You will serve me," and the other obey (1).Such examples have never occurred, and what the weight of arms might consecrate for a moment, never being ratified by the fragile and wavering conscience of the oppressed, would soon vanish. Thus, wherever there is slavery, there is a duality or plurality of races.(1) It might be countered that in Russia, as in Poland, serfdom is a recent institution; But it must be observed, first, that the situation of the peasant in the empire scarcely deserves the name; then, in both countries, it rapidly transforms into complete freedom, proof that it was never endured without protest. It will therefore have constituted only a transitory accident, a natural result of the superposition of differently endowed races, for in Poland as well as in Russia, the nobility descended from foreign conquerors. Today, with this ethnic dividing line disappearing or having disappeared, serfdom no longer has any reason to exist and proves it by dying out.
>>25273150Yeah, people from the same ethnic background never exploit one another! How the fuck do people fall for this?
>>25273166Replace 'ethnicity' with 'family' and the answer is no, there's no such thing as a family member accepting a relative as his 'master'. Having a rich uncle is a good thing, a successful cousin brings happiness to the family. Thus social privilege is not only meek in genetically related groups, social distinctions are considered a net positive. One starts wondering how social classes even emerge in the first place, the answer is ethnic clashes that go back to the stone age and today present themselves as nobility, bourgeoisie and plebbitry.
>>25272937There are people from the decayed and abandoned parts of the US who are thrown into prison without trial because they’re more useful serving as actual slave labor.
>>25273241The quote you originally provided had to qualify itself: ‘and as for serfdom in eastern Europe, well, it wasn’t THAT bad and it only lasted a few centuries!’ Lol, lmao even. You also continue to think of races as big genetic families even though this has been repeatedly debunked.
>>25273340Oh, it can totally happen within the same race if they are different ethnicities, like in European serfdom. What we have in the Balkans and the Middle East, in contrary, is genetically similar groups warring against each other, without either of them being able to succeed in dominating the other one for longer period of times because they are too similar. They can only trade with each other within the boundaries of their small territories or decimate each other in gruelsome wars. The same can be said about barbarian New Guinea.
>>25273241>Having a rich uncle is a good thing, a successful cousin brings happiness to the family.When has that ever been the case? There's countless lower middle class families out there fighting each other over a shack in the middle of nowhere. Im upper middle class and I consistently clash with my sister over inheritance issues and family members are just as likely to be jealous of other family members as any other person in the world, specially if they are somewhat distant like cousins and uncles. Endless pity feuds all around. Families are mostly desperate to have their daughter/son be sucessful because it grants the parents social security when they are older and for many lower class families they think their kids can take them out of poverty, it's trading favors. Social privilege is specially strong in genetically related groups and plenty of blood has been shed over this SPECIALLY between closest related ones
>>25273062Socialists can sort it out after im dead. I know a couple people at university spending their entire youth preaching marxist dogma and going to so much meaningless stuff that it feels kinda depressing to see, at least sometimes some of these events are just thinly veiled excuses to go drink and do drugs but still plenty of people take it sincerely. Why waste your youth on a project that far outweighs your lifetime? Just fuck hookers and let the future proles sort this shit out themselves
>>25273362You have auto-refuted your own argument. Yes, in perfectly homogenous societies, as well as in the family, the minority is oppressed by the majority. Your comment sounds like the lament of an aristocrat, in sociological terms, it is the lament of an aristocrat oppressed by the plebs.
