Please let’s keep this thread free from genreslop. Retards should go to /sffg/ or /wng/. This is a place for the discussion of literary fiction or nonfiction writing, which is what intelligent people read.

>>25273319
can we keep the thread free of faggoty hall-monitoring posts like this? how about post whatever you want. Shakespeare was the original "genreslop."

>>25273331
Go to /wng/ if you want unfettered retardation. It seems like it’s more your speed, anyway.

>>25273341
go be a janny if you want to be a full-time faggot.

A conversation between Life and Death

Life
Silence is golden, my friend. And words are cheap. Put your words away like lesser coppers and spend them when you have something to say. Otherwise, drink up the golden nectar of the Olympians.

Death
Silence is golden, tis true. Does your silver tongue lap up the golden nectar all the same - by some alchemy?

Life
Mince not your words, friend. Tis the meat between the teeth that is my interest. My silver tongue picks it carefully, as it does with words.

Death
I do not mince my meat, I beat it. It's usually finished in a minute.

Life
Sir's loins?
Death
Below the ribs, aye.

Life
You betray a sweet tooth for your mouth is filled with trifles.

Death
Fudge!

>>25273350
I’ll janny my dick up your ass, homo.

>>25273331
The reason the board is lost to illiterate charlatans is because all the educated gatekeepers left, and you wish for even less?

>>25273391
maybe post something of value yourself instead of nagging like an idiot woman.

>thought for decade I was writing YA because of the protagonist's age
>find out what YA means
>panic because the fucker refuses to change, doesn't care about teen problems (does planning to take over the world count as a teen ambition at least?) and doesn't take the plot seriously
>litfags won't like it because the voice has too many teen moments
>coomer and wattpad fags won't like it because he's too cool to get laid
>RR fags won't like it because of the aforementioned stuff and refusal to give them a dopamine rush with every chapter
>couldn't even self-publish it on amazon without changing some spicy teen scenes
Uh, well, Eileen by Ottessa Moshfegh somehow found an agent, so maybe there is still hope?

Nevermind
>Moshfegh was born in 1981 and raised in Boston, Massachusetts.[5] Her mother was Croatian and her father an Iranian Jew

>>25273408
>too cool to get laid
you can't be "too cool to get laid" as not getting laid is uncool by the definition of the word
you may say too stoic to get laid, although that's also a mangling of the word as most of the stoic philosophers had children
too chronically online to get laid may work, or too autistically hyperfixated on a distorted idea of what he believes coolness means to get laid

>>25273319
Then we'll have no books. Nobody is writing anything other than elves with swords and dwarves with spears.

>>25273420
I mean, it's a mix of anxiety with intimacy and not wanting people to get attached but chances are, the sort of audience who cares about will miss it. Though at least AI models did flag the dodging when it gets spicy correctly.

>>25273473
most people, especially women, don't get attached to people just for having sex
there's a reason why casual sex is a thing

>>25273462
Occasionally there are lesbians in space.

>>25273319
Post your work.

>>25273408
Your MC sounds insufferable, no offense.

>>25273781
You wouldn’t understand it.

>>25273462
I thought Victoria was about a Saint

>>25273783
I don't even disagree. He gets called out for it by the few people he respects too. And the greentext even skips the darker consequences of his attitude on others. But it also skips the self-awareness and humor which might soften the reader's impression if they vibe with it. Then again, given he's performing it for himself too and actively pushes the reader from sympathizing with him – yeah, it's going to be a hard sell, alright, even as competence porn.

Though it's sorta justified in the context of the setting (think a more corrupt and violent post-soviet country) when his ego is holding it all together as an overly-empathetic person. Well, at least cognitive empathy.

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How do you like my cover?

>>25273945
Thumbnail looked a bit like 50 shades.

Better to write more than necessary and then trim back in editing? Or try to hit your targets the first time?

>>25273289
>AI slop

I've found that focusing on hours writing per a day over words written per day makes me more productive. When I set myself to write 500 words minimum every day, I kept falling off the wagon, but now that I'm setting myself to write at least an hour every day, my daily average has shot up to ~1500 words.
Anyone else report anything similar?

ESL here. If you're also an ESL, how did you manage to stop sounding like an ESL? Is that even possible?
Reading a lot doesn't seem to improve my writing. Is that advice a meme?

>>25273878
Nobody gives a shit about your greentext. You probably haven't written 10 chapters of this supposed "story".

>>25274306
read a lot, write a lot, talk to other people a lot.

What should revising be I always just rewrite the whole thing

>>25274306
ESL here too. It never really goes away. All it takes is one bad phrase for people to sniff you out. So I've just stopped agonizing over it and just revise a lot to try to catch as many of those mistakes as possible. AI is also a huge help for hunting those things, but it never catches them all.

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>>25274243
i was considering giving the book a try but the more i see it being shilled in that insufferable bronze age mindset way (or even worse still since it's ai not dumb hotties or poor photoshop which has its charm) the more i'm put off by it
then again i was going to pirate the first read anyway so no harm no foul to op, i guess

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>>25274306
>>25274384
my esl-brethren, my brothers-in-esl, you have been so enticed by the prospect of becoming a famous writer that you forgot you will never actually become a famous writer and that is rule number one, you will never truly be appreciated or fully understood even and the quicker you come to terms with it, the better, as you then start focusing on what actually matters to you and what you bring to the table will shine through in your own unique, maybe quirky, way instead of a "trying too hard to blend in and not to sound esl" second-hand way, even worse if you do make it and end up shilling your little book with forced memes and edits, absolutely dreadful

but tongue-in-cheekyness aside, what you must do is what all your ancestors have done and that is to translate, translate as many of your favorite obscure, untranslated works as possible to and from your native language, this is akin to what any other art form has you doing in the beginning, ie imitate, as it will not only give you a proper workout in terms of pace, rhythm, tone, maintaining a glossary etc but also an incredibly invaluable, fundamental morphism between what's natively inside your head and the corresponding english concept that best encapsulates or at least approximates it, and once you've built these bridges you can then loosen up and start exploring own little accents, push some boundaries for color & flavor while still staying inside the general intended meaning so on

thank you for coming to my ted talk

>>25274444
Quads of correctness of opinion checked. I've read that book cover to cover, and I can confirm your apparent suspicions that, much like the book's marketing campaign, the book is sloppy and kind of insufferable.
What are your thoughts on the marketing of T. B. Johnson's work with its hot bodies and decent Photoshop?

>>25274480
100x better than Victoria

>>25274517
I sense that Consumptive Cur's Kitty and (???)'s Victoria are kindred souls; humanity may be writing crossover fanfiction for generations

>>25273833
It's that awful, huh?

>>25273492
You are neither an expert on people, or on women.

>>25273319
"Literary fiction" is just the "drama" genre. No particular reason to hold it in higher esteem than any other genre.

>>25274556
"literary" also covers what would be called "experimental" in film

Sent 15 queries so far (started one month ago)
3 rejections
12 no replies
What do I do if no one wants it? I don't like the look of any agents other than the ones I've already sent to

>>25274752
Sounds like pretty standard numbers though given the business it's also impossible to tell whether your query or the writing sucked, or the agents were wrong for it.

I'm only capable of writing in first person. The words come out easily and it's like the writing happens on its own. But when I try to write in third person it's like a switch flips and my mind just goes blank. Any body else experience this?

>>25274752
15 rejections is nothing, especially in month. When you're coming up on a 100, that's maybe when you should start wondering if there's something about your work that's the problem.

>>25273391
>educated gatekeepers
There was never a single year of /lit/'s existence when it ever had these

I probably wouldn't be published if I wrote a love story between a lesbian and a straight guy, right? Is that considered problematic?

>>25275047
>about your work
it's just as likely it's about you as your work. you need to have a significant social media presence to make it work.

>>25275081
Depends on what places you're submitting to. Also, now that I think of it, a lot of places aren't open to submissions from writers without an agent. That's something to watch for as well.

It seems better to do the Japanese model of posting your work and hope a publisher finds you. Working for Matt dinnamen and a host of random fanfics with the names changed

How much stock do you put in a writer who’s had positive things said about them by big publications? Does that make you want to read their book or do you not give a shit?

>>25275196
>Do you care that the people selling the books are also praising them?
guess

>>25275196
zero-to-negative effect. the "expert class" has been totally discredited by anyone above room temp IQ. i might trust the endorsement of another author that i like, if it seems genuine.
honestly in this political environment i would default toward any trad-pub book being feminist-approved dogshit until proven otherwise.

>>25275217
What about a straight girl who falls in love with a gay guy?

>>25275080
They'll force you to write a book about a straight guy who falls in love with a gay guy next

>>25275219
No, after that to ramp things up it'll be a bisexual who falls in love with a non-binary person

>>25275223
Is this like a series of something?

>>You wouldn't like any tea?
>Yes, I would like some tea.
>No, I would like some tea.
damn

>>25275226
Why do you create problems for yourself?

>>25275080
>a love story between a lesbian and a straight guy
So...a regular heterosexual romance? What a taboo

>>25275232
Yes, but... you know. Lesbians are treated almost like holy beings today. It'll be like desecrating lesbianism for some people, end though it'd be more about two people finding each other, etc.

>>25275239
>desecrating lesbianism
You're reminding me of that narrow-minded reviewer who misidentified my queer character as a lesbian and complained that she had sex with men

>>25275080
>>25275239
Anon, I wrote a novel that’s WAY more taboo than that (like, if I phrased it wrong, I’d go to jail level taboo), and I’ve still got it up for sale on all major platforms. The way I got around it was self-publishing through a distributor and then focusing on targeted marketing.

Your lesbian x straight male romance will do fine if you point the right audience towards it.

>>25275225
Sure, and the big final book is about two asexuals who try to make a baby together.

>>25275261
>if I phrased it wrong, I’d go to jail
Unless your work is a functional manual for overthrowing the government, I doubt this is the case

>>25275253
It's a real issue, man.

>>25275265
Its deals with taboo sexual content with younger girls. It’s only JUST within the legal limit (slightly further than Lolita went in some ways). I’ve also had a review come back telling me it’s “creepy” and “alienating”, even while admitting that the book is overall well made.

>>25275081
>media presence
Hypothetically speaking, if I have written a great book, and next year I enter a literary competition in my native language, whose main traits of selection include a board reviewing its books anonymously, do you believe, before my book is to be declared winner, that they would through contact reconsider their choice, based on the fact I am a nameless hikikomori undereducated NEET? Hypothetically speaking.

>>25275283
There's definitely a political aspect to publishing books. Lolita was created by Vladimir Fucking Nabokob and it another era of our world. Today, from a no-name author, amidst the biggest pedophile hysteria in history, no chance your book will get published. That's my worry too, and that's why I don't even attempt the books I want to write. Even Game of Thrones would have a hard time today unless the fat man aged up those kids (specifically Dany).

>>25275299
As I said though, my book is self-published so it IS published. I think we have to accept that trad publishing just isn’t the place for any book with ambition and risk involved, especially since even without the controversial content, my book was too long for what the trad publishers I looked into were looking for.

The comforting way to look at it though is that a lot of great works in mediums that stand the test of time usually aren’t the most popular ones at the time of their release. As long as you find AN audience of some sort, then that’s all that matters.

>>25273319
Literary nowadays means jackshit, though. The canon is dead and if not, we’ll have to wait a few more decades to see what holds up and if modern NPCs even appreciate good literature by then or if it’s gotten even more brain dead High and lowbrow have effectively merged in that you can have the sloppiest of slops but even literary minded people seem to lean more towards literature with the outward appearance of accessible slop (which even then can still filter plebs).

I’d say that at least we got some dudes willing to write that enjoy it for the sake of writing and not to have a “heckin cool awesome sauce magic system”, which is way better than 99% of writing groups I’ve ever been in.

>>25273391
>educated gatekeepers
Audible kek

>>25275080
Hmm, the scenes and themes keep coming to me. I don't want this. I should write something that sells.

>>25275080
This is admittedly one of my guilty pleasures, especially if its in harem setting. Try self publishing, Anon. If you're lucky the controversy will be free marketing.

>>25275733
>harem setting
I don't know, I really like tension in romance, and harem removes a lot of it IMO. The premise swirling in my head right now is: what if these two down-on-their-luck friends accidentally started a street-fight social media channel, and it gets more and more complicated as they gain recognition and followers. Think Fight Club meets Viral Hit. There are nuances to the setting I haven't ironed out yet.

>>25275745
NTA, but that sounds way better and also hotter than a harem route. I’d read it.

>>25275745
That's a fair preference. Personally, I prefer to cut out the unpleasant parts in fictional romances. Wish fulfilment, I suppose. The premise sounds like it could be interesting. I assume it's supposed to be a comedy.

Have any of you published something and noticed any spelling or grammatical errors after the fact. I think my work has some stupid subtle grammatical errors, even after editing, but it’s too late to fix it now.

>>25275803
Thanks.
>>25275815
It might have its funny banter moments, but no parody-funny like Viral Hit. I'm thinking right now it would become a sort of litrpg, but not in the sense of status, but more akin to Neuromancer, where the MC gets "better at the game," though I suppose there will be no virtual reality there, just the guy going through the fights and the channel growing (then crashing). Or it might be something completely different. It's very nebulous right now, and it might be some time before I attempt to write it.

There was an anon that talked about a dude getting isekai'd into a fantasy world that uses his knowledge of working at McDonald's to build an empire in his own right of fast food. Is he still around? That's something I'd genuinely read and is good fuel for satire.

>>25274476
You seem like a good guy, anon. I have an ESL friend who is translating his book from spanish. You basically would have to rewrite the whole thing. They say, "You haven't read Sartre if you haven't read it in French." It's hard enough to write in your own language.

I'd honestly recommend writing in your language DESU.
>>25275299
I can see that yall are concerned about being crucified for what you want to write. I don't think it's as bad as we think. Sometimes ,I toss and turn worrying that MY writing is too edgy. Kids are reading Mafia agegap rape scenes with smoking and swearing. If the turner diaries got published, so can we!

I enjoyed Lolita, personally. I even told people that I enjoyed it. No one throws rotten fruit at me on the street. No one sends me nastygrams on twitter dot com. The cherry trees are starting to bloom. And I just got put on a wattpad ambassador's reading list (but I doubt that means much).

>>25274306
Have an LLM write for you. Spend more time editing out slop than it would have taken you to write it yourself.

Chinese women write in English and have won the Nobel Prize in Literature, the Pulitzer Prize, etc. If you're ESL, don't give up, just keep practicing; it's just as hard for natives.

Should I write even if I'm horrible at it

>>25276058
Chinese women have significantly higher IQs than brown males (the ESLs on this thread)

>>25276091
If you're enjoying what your writing, yes. Even if you're bad at it at list it will have heart and readers pick up on that.

>>25276098
Proof?

>>25274444
it's just 120 pages or so

>>25276204
120 double spaced with block paragraphs.

It's not even more than 15k words.

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>>25276220
why lie?

>>25276235
>under 30k words
point still stands. this isn't a novel. it's a shitpost

is very amateur writing and reading literature a valid respectable hobby?

>>25276241
seems like you lied and then moved the goalpost.
thx for your brilliant contribution, sweaty.

>>25276325
honey, your work isn't a novel or even a novelette

>>25276317
Respected by whom?

>>25276327
i never said it was anything other than a story. the second story will be released in august and a third in december, if you’re concerned i’m not writing enough.

AI is hilarious when you complain about agents. They insult them by saying agents hire some 20 year old assistant sending form letters and never read even the first 2 chapters.

500 words today. Trying to write at night after I take melatonin is probably not a great idea.

>Everything is Romantasy!
I can't take it anymore. I'm fucking writing the NTR cucking fat ugly bastard story! The romantasy pretty boy shall SIT IN THE KEK CHAIR and watch (me) fuck the girl.

>>25276220
Length and quality are not linked

>>25276536
Watching you try to make love would indeed make me kek

>>25275833
If you're self-pubbed on Amazon, it'll let you upload new editions. But anyone who bought the book before you changed it will always have the version that they bought (even eBook owners).
t. published something and noticed any spelling or grammatical errors

>>25276488
>insulting
Just sounds like facts most agents are pretty open with. And the more I read, the more I get them.

Go do some trash driving on sites where people publish their shit, how many of the blurbs even make you want to check out the first chapter? How many from these make you go "lolno" after the first paragraph?

>>25276699
I think I might leave it as is with my book being so close to release because it’s just a “their/they’re” level error and maybe it’ll add a kind of rough charm for the people who actually notice it considering everything else is correct. It’ll correct it in later editions

>[
>(
>{
in what context are each of these used?

>>25276938
>(
An aside comment that isn’t that important, but adds texture.
>[
Mostly used in academic and scripting contexts. It’s an author comment that exists externally from the text.

>{
Genuinely no clue, but I know mathematics uses it a lot.

I've just about realised my 15000 word goal for my intermezzo play-about-children-playing. Right on time too, because my muse is almost out of juice. One or two scenes left... It's meant to be farcical but it's ended up having an unironic moral, and not just that but what could be considered a Christian one... lol

>>25276938
(a literary aside)
>"I had no idea what she was thinking." (I actually did know what she was thinking.)
>{a nested literary aside}
>"I had no idea what she was thinking." (I actually did know what she was thinking. {If only I had told her that.})
[A setting marker, scene transition, or time skip.]
>[After along night alone with her, the feel asleep. He woke up, startled that he wasn't in his normal bed.] "I had no idea what she was thinking."

Does anyone have experience with Developmental vs Line Editors? I'm unsure which would be best for my work.