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>Capitalists can buy themselves out of any crisis, so long as they make the workers pay

>All official and liberal science defends wage-slavery, whereas Marxism has declared relentless war on that slavery.

>I can't listen to music too often. It affects your nerves, makes you want to say stupid nice things and stroke the heads of people who could create such beauty while living in this vile hell.

>Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle.

>When a liberal is abused, he says, ‘Thank God they didn’t beat me.’ When he is beaten, he thanks God they didn’t kill him. When he is killed, he will thank God that his immortal soul has been delivered from its mortal clay.

>What is a liberal-democratic philistine? An empty gut, filled with cowardice.

>All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the bourgeoisie.

this kind of dopey drivel makes me miss the guenon spam crew

>>25281889
>actually talking about the real world and facing the nightmare makes me miss hearing about astrology and crystals

I unironically understand

my productivity isn’t your resource, parasite.

>>25281898
It's the shareholders'

i just don't want to hear this stuff man why do you have to constantly bully me on the literature board if we had mods this wouldn't even be on topic his was made for a reason
fuck you guys are like mormons just place stop knocking on my door let me have my little life

>>25281903
Bully?

>>25281903
exactly man lmao marxists are like those jehova's witnesses pushing watch tower magazine on the street corner. same exact playbook: "omg isn't the world messed up? we're all doomed! except we have all the answers right here in this pamphlet!"

>>25281907
>omg isn't the world messed up? we're all doomed! except we have all the answers right here in this pamphlet!
Glorious mode of thought.

How does this relate to those big tech service based companies that don't really produce anything?

>>25281912
They are primarily surveillance and datamining firms.

>>25281918
then they must have great appeal to communist governments!

Why does he use bourgeoise as some sort of antagonistic label.

He was minor nobility, which is worse.

>>25281944
Bourgeoisie in Marxist terminology means the capitalist class. It has zero to do with blood lineage, it is purely a relationship to the means of production which is why Marx considered it the first class-conscious class.

>>25281953
I was sick in a hospital for a long period of time and I had to accumulate wealth by throwing my sickbux into crypto markets. What class is that.

>>25282015
Gamblers are capitalists if that is their main source of income

>>25281953
At my job there are grunt workers who are, I suppose, the 'genuine proletariat' because they get paid the minimum cost for labor that the market will bear at this time (15-17$/hr). But there are also more skilled positions within the organization that pay more like 25$/hr and are not hard to get; if you're a reliable worker and you have a driver's license you can get these jobs within a year or two of starting. There are also training programs that will get you into highly skilled work. Then there are people like the engineers - are they workers? They're being exploited by definition but they don't have any common interest with the true proles. And the 'skilled' proles don't have much in common with the true proles because the true proles are all recent high school graduates or immigrants, and the vast majority will not be true proles forever. So your entire theory is retarded, this is not 1865, 40% of workers are not making subsistence wages. This is such a beautiful time for substantive change and you're posting about Lenin like a tankie retard.

>>25282056
>if you have a driver's license
Fuck...

>>25282056
Both trade unions and unskilled labor are labor. The difference is that the unskilled labor are on a lower deck of the sinking ship. Wages have been stagnating for a long time now and it WILL get worse and worse and worse until even the higher deck laborers are drowning

>>25282057
ppl with driver's licenses should be liquidated so life's more fair, am i right, comrade?

>>25282061
wages went up under trump 1 so the libs chimped and did covid

>>25282066
Real wages are consistently declining

>>25282065
What

>>25282072
>Historical data from the Economic Policy Institute indicates that since 1979, real hourly wages for middle-wage workers have increased by only 6%, while low-wage workers’ wages have declined by 5%, contrasting with a 41% increase for high-wage earners.

freaky, it's almost like "the working class" isn't one monolithic block and various income strata may have competing "interests".

You make a good point about how appropriation remained private; if money was a more social currency do you suppose some kind of lower court could be established rather than a congressional body to enforce appropriation socially? How would you make sure the people at the top aren't getting their toes stepped on, in such a way that they wouldn't violently resist that? Surely what Bolshevism lacked in representation can be accounted for in its dismissal of religion, right?

>>25282081
A middle-wage worker is defined a worker earning 2/3 to 2 the median wage. So today that means anyone earning from about 15 to 40 dollars an hour.

>>25282093
>real hourly wages for middle-wage workers have increased by only 6%,
so
>Real wages are consistently declining
was a lie. that's standard for marxists tho since their ideology is just theoretical dressing on resentment vibes.

>>25281884
It's high priority in my to read list. Maybe I'll get to it after going through marx

>>25282057
How can you not like vrooms.

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>>25281912
>>25281884
There is no one running the market anymore, more than 65% of trades are being run by automatized algorithmns that purposefully ignore reality, or just outright look at marketcap and invest in marketcapped indexed pattern (like ETFs, which are the main investment alongside bonds of most retirement 401k(s)). When the Trump 'ceasefire' announcement happened, a lot of margin calls began to be issued on those who had shorted stocks, beginning with small shorts then rising up. When that small nudge of positive happened, the trade algorithmns (who do not see war or anything else, really), began buying stocks, which raised their value and caused more margin calls to be issued, forcing more and more of those who shorted stocks and commodities to buy once again. Discretionary buyers were forced to re-buy stocks, and algorithmns saw this volume of trade as a sign to long all assets in the economy.

The result of this algorithmn and marketcapped passive trade? The line cannot go down anymore. The way to win capitalism is to have money and buy everything and anything you can get your hands on. Do you think it is car sales that props up Tesla, or AI subscritpions that props up OpenAI? No, it is passive investments in the form of ETFs that see big marketcap, then make it bigger.

The issue with this is that these business are now sucking in all the capital (resources and reserve money) of society like a black hole, and they are operating outside of reality. Profits, earnings, war, peace, nothing matters as long as marketcap is not lost. The line has been rigged to always go up.

The only way the markets can even crash anymore is if all of this money invested in ETFs is withdrawed, and there is no liquidity to keep on buy AI stocks (1/3 of the US economy) anymore.

tl;dr: we are royally and completely fucked

>>25282117
ya but some people save their money and buy vrooms while other ppl waste all their money on hookers therefore those who own the vrooms are BAD it's just not FAIR

>>25282117
I just can't drive man. Its really fucked my life

>>25281884
marx thread poster here

not really sure i give a fuck about lenin or anything he ever wrote.

just sayin.

>>25282137
I've heard impetialism is great. But don't listen to me I'm drunk af rn

>>25282056
aw shit tankie the plankie rides the silver shitpost again!!
yeeehaw

>>25282141
drunk on the blood of indigenous people or booze?

>>25282061
You're writing like this is something that just started last year but it's been going on for decades. Your rhetoric sucks, it will accomplish nothing, people don't see themselves as working class because for so many of them the bottom rungs of society are temporary, hence they buy into the broader system. Nobody cares about Lenin in 2026. Your best hope really is the left wing of the Democratic party but you're probably too much of an edgy retard to get involved with something as boring and potentially effective as that. Instead of donating money or volunteering or perhaps running for office you'll sit in your darkened room writing drivel about dialectical agriculture and how Pol Pot wasn't so bad after all.

>>25282101
No I am saying "middle wage" is averaging a minority of much higher with much lower wages together and is therefore bullshit to call it middle. It is a way of masking media wages

>>25282124
>The only way the markets can even crash anymore is if all of this money invested in ETFs is withdrawed, and there is no liquidity to keep on buy AI stocks (1/3 of the US economy) anymore.

But this shit is not happening because you have 401k(s) buying tech stock, literally people putting retirement money in Apple and glorified video game / chat bot companies larping as 'AI infrastructure' like Nvidea. So if there is ever a loss of liquidity in the stock market, the private sector will just blackmail the federal government to inject money in it, otherwise "people's retirement will be in danger".

It is all coming together in possibly the greatest scheme of income theft that would make the Pinkertons blush.

Then some fools talk about the virtues of capitalism, when all capital in society is not being used to build roads, trains and bridges, but to buy shit AI stocks that cannot go down.

Argentina is learning it the hardest way, that when the poor argentinians finally decide to do capitalism, nothing is being built because dealing in the real world has become so unprofitable and dangerous that it is better

And the USA is realizing it by 400 thousand homes losing insurance coverage around hurricane season because insurance no longer wants to insure anything when it is safer to join in the stock scheme.

I could go on for hours on how bad all of this is, that the stock market is skyrocketing and mooning on auto-pilot while the US government does a war in the ME and scarcity is creeping over fast.

I don't know who is behind all of this, but they have fucked up terribly, and 1 billion+ people are in risk of starvation. Even those who survive will see the harshest loss of living standard since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

It is already begun.

>>25282137
I don't think anyone who even read Marx today if not for Lenin. Marx was already close to nobody anymore by Lenin's lifetime and Marxists were the minority of socialists who strongly opposed involvement WWI in the countries involved

>>25282148
>false consciousness

Yes, I am familiar with the concept

>>25281912
The imperial quest for profit has enclosed the earth and turned inwards on human cognitive and attention.

>>25282147
Both?

>>25281903
My problem with them is they always act like there is something specific to me that I can do to stop this. And then they get angry and bitter as if me not agreeing with them is somehow harmful. Whenever they talk about how we as individuals can do something its always along the lines of tribals who think they can fend off the death machine by throwing rocks

>>25282124
>do you think it's car sales that props up tesla
Teslas stock price is based on the idea that self driving cars will replace logistics and taxis and uber.
>AI subscriptions props up openAI
OpenAI is not even publicly traded, so how are people making passive investments via ETFs?
>>25282150
The problem isn't capitalism it's just investing in stocks is a useless waste of resources that ought to be completely rethought.

>>25282202
>The problem isn't capitalism it's just investing in stocks is a useless waste of resources that ought to be completely rethought.
investing in stocks gives everyone the ability to have ownership stakes in some of the world's greatest companies. it completely democratized capital.

>>25281884
petty bourgeoise screeching about getting raped by big Capital is still going strong hundred years later and is why people like Piketty, AOC and other 'tax the rich' drones becomes so popular in countries were the middle classes dominate all political discourse.

>>25282211
>democracy is when you buy your votes

>>25282211
>lowqualitybait.jpg

>>25282235
>3: relating, appealing, or available to the broad masses of the people
yes

>>25282235
instead of seething about tesla and nvidia, you could have owned them and seen your portfolio grow. tesla is up 30,000% since 2014 or something. instead u spent ur money on bing bing wahoos, and you're free to deploy your resources in that way, just don't get mad when others retire comfortably while ur still greeting at walmart.

>>25282148
nta but I participate in Democratic politics in the real world and also make occasional Marxist, Leninist, and Maoist threads anonymously in my spare time. I even tried to organize my workplace and got to the point that a group of about 15 were meeting outside of work but nothing came of it because we couldn't strike and half the workers on the floor turned out to be in bed with management in one way or another. There is nothing wrong with talking about Lenin or Pol Pot on 4chan. It's not like I walk around in a Pol Pot t-shirt if I'm knocking on doors.

>>25282241
Having a share on paper is. Not actually having a voice in the running of the company or any portion of its profits beyond pennies which aren't even minted anymore

>>25282256
I made money gambling and continue to. Telling me I could have gambled there instead if only I had bet on the winner is not a persuasive argument

>>25282211
My case against the stock market is that it's an inefficient use of resources.

The first problem is that when I buy a stock I'm not, as a naive beginner might think, 'investing in the company'. My money doesn't go to Apple when I buy Apple stock. It doesn't help Apple management buy something they need, it doesn't give them the capital to undertake some venture. I'm buying the stock from a guy who previously bought it, and the money goes to him.

The exceptions are, of course, if Apple dilutes the stock to raise money, or if it's an IPO, but outside of that, investing in Apple doesn't help Apple. The stock price is pretty much completely distinct from the company and its performance.

So my buying Apple has benefitted the economy 0.

What might I have done instead if investing in Apple were not available to me? I could have:

a) Lent the money to a company that needed to raise capital. This would be productive as that company would then be directly benefitting from my investment, providing employment and production in the economy.

b) Spent the money on my own personal luxuries. This would be productive as it would provide employment to people in that industry.

c) Started my own company with that capital.

So without the stock market the huge amounts of capital wasted in what is essentially this unproductive ponzi scheme would be put to good use. The same goes for bitcoin and gold and any other asset.

I have some ideas for reform but they're not very well thought out.

>>25282263
>stocks are gambling!
oh a financial illiterate i see, guess that's why ur marxist.

>>25282273
Stock speculation is gambling, yes. Speculation is absolutely gambling.

>>25282277
Buying the S&P500 has literally never lost anyone money

>>25282290
Buying the S&P and holding it for long enough, sure. That is not what you were talking about

>>25282273
Stock markets at this point are gambling with zero risk. It is a rent-seeking cheat. If you have money, just invest it because the line is not allowed to go down anymore.

>>25282202
Their valuation is 900 billion dollars and their IPO plan is coming soon.

A few stocks related to "AI" answer for most of the S&P500.

>>25282211
Except it isn't, due to how monetary supply is distributed within society, with big borrowers being able to buy everything on discount before prices rise, thus generating income inequality. This is why Musk will take colossal loans just so he can get his hands on some extra stock, or why Ellison realized the same and just went all-in on stocks.

In the current marketcap trade, it is a monopoly game of whoever gets the paper first, wins.

>>25282271
no one think when u buy shares of a company it's going to the company. ur buying a claim on future cashflows and assets of the company.

>lend the money to an early stage company
good luck with that dude... there's a reason early stage companies raise capital with equity not debt, lmao.

>self fund a startup
do u realize how much money it takes to start a capital intensive company? people who self fund like musk or the uber founder already had big exits, but in ur marketless world founders aren't able to sell their companies.

>>25282299
>the line is not allowed to go down anymore
classic "this time is different" thinking

>musk, ellison, bezos use debt
yeah, so they don't have to sell shares and trigger a taxable event every time they want to buy something

>>25281893
Marxists do not face the real world. They just gripe about how they don't get enough hedonistic pleasure out of life.

>>25282303
>no one think when u buy shares of a company it's going to the company. ur buying a claim on future cashflows and assets of the company.
So what? Can you interact with the point? It doesn't do anything for the company, so it's ECONOMICALLY UNPRODUCTIVE.
>good luck with that dude... there's a reason early stage companies raise capital with equity not debt, lmao.
If all the money wasted in the stock market was used to lend to companies instead, ie if companies were only allow to issue bonds and not stocks, then obviously the competition engendered by the inflow of capital to the bond markets would lead to lower interest rates.
> in ur marketless world founders aren't able to sell their companies.
Yeah well I don't know the solution, maybe it would be something like CEOs pay themselves from the profits of the company instead of owning stock. So Mark Zuckerberg would pay himself millions or billions per year instead of $1 per year as he currently does.

>>25282310
Nothing to do with labor alienation

>>25282234
To be fair, Aristotle said that the only correct form of democracy is one where the a strong middle class dominates. However, his ideal polity may have been more like Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie)

>>25281903
like close your eyes
walk away.
holy kek bro change your diaper and take a fucking nap, baby

>>25282312
>providing liquidity is unproductive
the absolute explosion of wealth in countries with well regulated equity markets says otherwise

>>25282335
The 'explosion of wealth' can only come from production. Wealth is not the numbers on your Robinhood trading account, it's the ability to buy bread, flour, pasta, TVs, cars, games, holidays, etc, etc, etc. It makes no sense to say that an unproductive transfer of money leads to 'an explosion of wealth'.

>>25282345
the numbers in your portfolio are representative of the productivity of those companies

>>25282345
>money isn't wealth; only the goods you buy with money are wealth
Another person who got filtered by part 1 of Capital.

>>25282356
ironically that guy is the marxist in this thread lmao

>>25282356
Wealth is an economic term, Marx didn't come up with it. Adam Smith was the first to see that a lot money is not the same as a lot of wealth by showing poor countries that imported a lot of gold and spent it all on services did not become wealthier. Marx more or less accept's Smith on his definition of wealth, and sees money as a way to alienate labor from the wealth it produces

>>25282367
>b) Spent the money on my own personal luxuries. This would be productive as it would provide employment to people in that industry.
this you?

>>25282323
Starship Troopers has a bit of Plato in it because the females are the jet pilots.

>>25282374
Smith was critical of that, not saying it was productive, see what he said about Paris

>are you Versailles?

Are you retarded?

>>25282383
u made that big post about how equity markets aren't productive and it would be better to blow the money on luxuries since that would create jobs unlike equity markets that just magically work without any labor never mind the army of guys supporting high speed trading in some data center

>>25282367
One of Marx's main points in part 1 is that money itself is congealed labor. So you are correct that money is a way of alienating labor but you are incorrect that nothing happens economically when an investor in the stock market makes a profit, as if numbers have merely changed on a screen - numbers that also, in some mysterious way, allows the investor to have more things. Lol, lmao even.

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>>25282310
Average marxist is a dumbass who will need to be eliminated at the first round of revolution.

All this discussion about what is wealth and capital is pointless. I just know that companies that earn less than a tire factory reach trillionaire market caps due to being listed in the sheets of 401k(s). Passive investment is the true bubble, not AI or electric cars.

>stock market is skyrocketing and mooning on auto-pilot while the US government does a war in the ME and scarcity is creeping over fast

And this is the absolute worst fucking part, because you will have people starving by the millions in the 3rd-world, and empoverished in the 1st, while the stock market is mooning.

What type of message does this send to governments, like Trump's, who pride themselves on how tall they are playing the Down, or how much stocks are up that week? — It tells them war is good, and removes the one immediate feedback that they were getting from the stock markets, telling them to tone down.

What type of message does this send to the goyim, who are quickly losing standards of living while those who bought in the feedback loop scam become the wealthiest people who ever lived on Earth? — That there is no reason to deal in the real world.

I don't know how it got this bad, how no one saw it coming, and how no one realizes that the dream of the ETF and passive trade overcoming the dangerous, edgy discretionary Warren Buffet-style 'see potential -> buy' more noble side of investment. And the consequence of such oversight and corruption will be either the destruction of the regime, or destruction of mankind.

Capital (unspent resources, and resources already invested) is the single, most important asset to manage in humanity, and the entire point of the economy. That is what mitigates disaster and provides insurance to those who want to run risks making the world better.

>>25282389
No, he said *commodities* are concealed labor. Not money, except perhaps bitcoin o algo

>>25281903
SIR? SIR! YOU NEED TO HEAR ABOUT DIALECTICS SIR! BECAUSE... IT'S IMPORTANT, OKAY CHUD???

>>25282399
Money IS a commodity, it's simply a commodity that has come to serve as a medium of exchange. He makes a point of saying that even fiat money, or credit money, is, at the last analysis, labor. Log off and read that shit again dude you are very confused.

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>>25282386
>u made that big post about how equity markets aren't productive

Equity markets right now are ANTI-PRODUCTIVE, it is far worse.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmarkman/2026/04/20/how-39-million-shoe-company-allbirds-turned-in-to-an-ai-company/

Due to resource allocation, a shoe company turned into an AI company.

All these resources, capital, labor, were supposed to sell things to people, not business that barely make any money from "AI services" but have trillionaire market cap due to a feedback loop in automatic trading.

>>25282396
because indexes outperform most money managers. paying someone to skim a percentage of your money to underperform the market was the scam. esg was a way to get libs vulnerable to empathetic manipulation to move their money back into expensive managed funds agains their own interests, but like buffet says about this if u care so much put ur money in an index, and take the gains that would have been wasted on management fees and donate it to charity.

>>25282407
>funny stuff happens in a bubble
i take it ur not old enough to have been around for the dotcom bubble. don't worry, markets will discover the correct price eventually. in fact, it looks like all birds is down 32% over trailing twelve months. that said berkshire hathaway is a textile company from new england that is somehow with 1 trillion dollars, weird!

>>25282405
I am not sure you know what a commodity is

>>25282409
Indexes will fail terribly at one point. They have to. Every single bubble, it is the same 'we are in a new paradigm' discourse, shortly preceded by a catastrophic collapse.

But look at how much money and resources has already been wasted on this. All these companies offering AI services will either ultimately end up signing government contracts with long durations, or they will ultimately continue relying on your Claudecode fee and fail to outearn Target.

The data center infrastructure takes 36-48 months to finish, the costs of constructing are only rising, insurance companies are quitting America left and right, the population is very upset by basic resource re-allocation because every service provider wants to sell to "AI companies", a handful of assets answer for all the positive results in US stockmarket, and I can go on.

The stockmarket is not the problem in itself, but it is a red flag on the colossal amount of leverage and resources being put into what will turn out ultimately to be another US contractor for the department of defense.

The end game of AI is a government contract, selling to retail barely makes any money and Deepseek is 100% free.

>>25282433
And I'm positive that you don't know what money is in Marxist theory. And you're apparently too arrogant to take a look at the text again so we're at an impasse. I'm posting on a phone on a train so I can't easily look up passages but take this right here:
>The first chief function of money is to supply commodities with the material for the expression of their values, or to represent their values as magnitudes of the same denomination, qualitatively equal, and quantitatively comparable. It thus serves as a universal measure of value. And only by virtue of this function does gold, the equivalent commodity par excellence, become money.
Note that he calls it the equivalent commodity. This is referring to the development earlier, how a commodity becomes money, in this case gold. This isn't the best quote but like I said there are limitations physically for me atm. As much of a pain in the ass as this is to do here is another one from the beginning of the same fucking chapter.
>It is because all commodities, as values, are realised human labour, and therefore commensurable, that their values can be measured by one and the same special commodity, and the latter be converted into the common measure of their values, i.e., into money.
Read it again you fuckwit. You do not understand the text. There is one place in particular where he talks about how the money-equivalent MUST be, originally, a commodity, before it is money. Now look at all this I typed out and copy-pasted on my phone just to enlighten you. Read it again.

>>25282356
Yeah, you retard, of course money is not wealth. Money would mean absolutely nothing if the productive forces of society were to disappear. If I am a millionaire but there are no bakeries and no bakers, I can't buy bread. Now apply that 1 million times over to any other product. If I am a billionaire but nobody produces anything I can't buy anything.
>>25282351
It doesn't matter. What I want is money not to be uselessly hoarded but PUT TO USE IN THE ECONOMY. That can only be done via loans or consumption spending, not through buying unproductive assets like stocks or crypto.

>>25282452
Gold has a use value, which of course disappears when it is an equivalent value, and Marx also explains that. You have a relative value and an equivalent value, e.g. these socks (relative value) are five dollars (equivalent value). But a commodity have function on both sides, which pure money does not, we do not say five dollars are two socks.

A commodity is a good or a service. Can a good be used as money? Certainly. But does money therefore become a good? No, because a good has use value.

>>25282452
>And I'm positive that you don't know what money is in Marxist theory

Fuck, it is saturday and I got nothing to do.

Please explain in Marxist theory what is:

>money supply
>commodity
>capital

And what was Marx's opinion about antissemitism.

I am beginning to see an attempt to revive political manifestos, rebrand politics, and revive anticapitalist movements from the corporate-imposed La Sallization of it.

>>25281884
Lenin was a Turkbaby rape mutt deliberately delivered to Russia by the Germans as a cognitohazard. Take him less seriously

>>25282480
brutal trvke lmao

>>25282474
No, just read Capital for yourself, it is available free online. If you want to read something light-ish from Capital check out part 8 which is a history of how capitalism developed in England and (to some extent) the colonies.
>>25282471
But I never denied this. I accept your concession - money is not an empty symbol or means of exchange, in order to even fulfill these functions it must itself be a commodity, it must be congealed labor, and this is one of the main theses of part 1. Money as a 'mere' symbol is one of capitalism's mystifications. When speculators make their profits they are not just playing some weird game with money they are accumulating the real labor and wealth of the society. Obviously I have been ignoring, this whole time, the issue of inflation etc. but Marx talks about that too, just read it again.

>>25282508
Money is a certificate of ownership of that labor, power over it, so to speak, yes, but that labor is congealed on commodities. Printing or digitally creating money is not production of commodities. For example if a plantation owner has the "deeds" to a hundred souls, as in the satirical novel Dead Souls, these deeds are not commodities, they are not goods. Anymore than the title to a house is.

>>25282536
Concealed in*

Commodities represent labor expended. Fiat money takes its value qua money as an analogue to the commodities of society, in fact even gold qua money does.

>>25281907
The primary difference is that Marxists do actually have the answers in their little pamphlet.

>>25282508
>When speculators make their profits they are not just playing some weird game with money they are accumulating the real labor and wealth of the society

This is very far-fetched and unecessary.

A commodity has inherent value, money does not. Not all labor is made the same, and 'congealed labor' means nothing. Money is a medium of exchange, there is hardly any mysticism to it.

Marx, like Smith, seems to inhabit a world where labor magically creates profit, rather than the expectation of profit create labor. Where is time, and how each agent in the hierarchy of production deal with time?

It is also quite glib how this entire 'labor is wealth' narrative collapses fast, considering wealthiest markets are exactly those with fewer workers and worked hours. Marx's cop out that 'profits outperform earnings by workers' is just a cop out. And of course, the colonialism narrative is there, that such labor being exploited is from foreign nations, ignore that the poorest nations on Earth are exactly those that do not engage in market economies for political reasons.

The truth is much simpler. Money is not congealed labor, money is a medium of exchange that is accepted by various agents and can be stocked easily. Money cannot be converted easily into goods and services, not without those willing to accept it.

>purposefully ignoring the issue of inflation

The issue of inflation is core and the centerpiece of "capitalism's mystification'. As a matter of fact, it is all of it.

If money is congealed labor, that would mean that labor loses value when there is more money, since inflation erradicates purchasing power?

You do not need such stupid rationalizations to conclude that money can be used to steal from society; it suffices that you acknowledge that some people earn that money first, before prices rise.

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>>25281884
Read it a few months ago. Main thing I remember is that Lenin really really disliked Kautsky.

>>25282508
Convenient. Anyone who disagrees with you "doesn't understand", but you're the one who won't explain what you think it means. Fucking cowardly way to debate.

>>25282148
>democratic party
Fyi this is a very american centric view. Here in europe anticapitalism is more common, even if it is marginal. I couldn't find the source but in France 33% of the pop. considers itself "against capitalism and for an alternative mode of production".
But yes, tankies adoring stalin and the likes whilst autistically clinging to dead authors has probably been of the most damaging things for the movement overall, alongside the shittification of the USSR and virtually all socialist countries which existed after it.

>>25281884
I dont read kike nonsense. And neither should you.

>>25282771
Tankies are not even Stalinists. Tankies maintained loyalty to the party line in the USSR despite it denouncing Stalin. Stalinists distanced themselves from the USSR and eventually, along with China, strongly condemned the USSR invasion of Afghanistan

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>>25281886
> wage-slavery
Nah no way this unemployed balding incel was already using the term wage slave in 1910s kek

>>25282552
>I never read Capital therefore I do not understand how money can be congealed labor here are some asinine opinions blablabla
You don’t understand ltv. It is not a matter of how many hours you work. I’m not explaining it to you either you’ll just have to read Capital if you want to argue with Marxists and have them take your points seriously.

>>25283082
Does any more labor go into printing a hundred bill than a one?

>>25283117
Not at all. And does mining an ounce of gold take twice as much labor as a chest x-ray? That’s patently absurd and it is not how Marxist LTV actually works. You’ll just have to read the book.

>>25283131
The social average value of a chest x-ray factors the education of the doctor and the engineering the machine

>>25283134
You’re getting warmer but you still don’t get it because you haven’t read the book. LTV isn’t about explaining why something costs what it does. It’s explaining how your labor can be ‘hoovered’ into a temple horde or a capitalist’s balance sheet, the logic of this mysterious process. How did Uklak hunting a deer thirty years ago become a speck of gold in the temple of Ishtar?

>>25283146
So you concede that LTV is just mental gymnastics for poor workers to claim they have been robbed when their hirer profit, while remaining suspiciously silent when the hirer doesn't?

If you are going to defend LTV, you need to make people aware of the historical context of LTV, and that LTV does not conceive of the possibility that that the capitalist can have any losses. That is more reasonable in the 19th century, when there was barely any capital, and all that was produced were goods that were immediately consumed, and seldom you saw crisis of overproduction, but plenty of crisis of scarcity.

But even with this historical context, LTV is just simply plain wrong. Workers are not business associates, they are entitled to payment to previously accorded contract, independent whether the expected profits of the hirer are made or not. The salary arrives from the expectation of profit, that the hirer themselves can't operate all the machines and expects that even if a salary is paid, there will still be profit and a net gain even with the additional cost of hiring.

The truth about value and the hierarchy of production is that the capitalist expects, the employee is paid. In this aspect, capitalism is innocent, and if you do not bring historical narratives about how 'all communal property was seized and the proles were left with only the strength of their arms', TLV itself is just outright wrong and is a very confusing thing for a services-based economy.

>>25283156
> LTV does not conceive of the possibility that that the capitalist can have any losses.

NTA but there is a thing to be noted here. A single Capitalist may or may not register losses but the Capitalist system itself operates on the assumption of profit. Profit and losses are not symmetrical. The system requires profit to exist at all times to make human productivity chugging alone. Losses are an exception to the rule, when we look at the whole system

>>25283166
NTA but you’re just completely wrong

>>25283156
>So you concede that LTV is just mental gymnastics for poor workers to claim they have been robbed when their hirer profit, while remaining suspiciously silent when the hirer doesn't?
Sure. Except that Marx is objectively correct that the only thing all commodities have in common is labor.
> If you are going to defend LTV, you need to make people aware of the historical context of LTV, and that LTV does not conceive of the possibility that that the capitalist can have any losses.
What the fuck are you talking about, all the classical economists were trying to crack the business cycle, which involves losses. Marx alludes to losses and business failures all the time.

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>>25283156
> But even with this historical context, LTV is just simply plain wrong. Workers are not business associates, they are entitled to payment to previously accorded contract, independent whether the expected profits of the hirer are made or not. The salary arrives from the expectation of profit, that the hirer themselves can't operate all the machines and expects that even if a salary is paid, there will still be profit and a net gain even with the additional cost of hiring.
Nope, sorry, you still don’t get it. It’s like your knowledge of Marx is pieced together from half-remembered blog articles on mises
.org. The fact that workers are contracted and what wages are and how they are not the same as profits, or the prices of goods for that matter, is essential to Marxism. In all the time you’ve spent arguing with Marxists on 4chan you could have read dozens of pages of Capital. Even if you are not a committed commie in the end, it’s a powerful, world historical book. Reading it feels like an ant becoming aware of the hive.

>>25283192
>Reading it feels like an ant becoming aware of the hive.
Even learning about it's arguments from tertiary sources had the same effect on me. Despite never having read the book.

>>25283192
Why did Marx write Capital in German when he was fluent in English and French and thought Germany was too backwards for socialism? It’s a minor point that always puzzled me.

>>25283200
>doesn’t understand based contumacious anarcho agitprop

>>25283198
For me it was the opposite. I had imbibed a lot of liberal economics as a young man so the typical Marxist shenanigans didn’t have an effect on me because I thought I understood the economy fairly well, for a layman, and that Marxism was emotionally charged bullocks. I distinctly remember saying to someone, “I don’t care if the 1% are rich, they didn’t steal from me.” I was right that they had stolen nothing and yet I was still a retard. Capital is a massive red pill and paradigm shift.
>>25283200
I would guess he was not comfortable writing quality prose in those languages. Capital was Marx’s baby, he agonized over every comma.

>>25283214

I come from STEM college and in STEM, career is what you talk about half the time. Even back then, during campus job placement season people would say shit like, "even if they are pay you a hefty package, rest assured they are making 4-10x more off of it."

But this is not just about a salesman making 100k worth of sales and getting 25k in bonus. This goes all the way to the lowest rung blue collar worker.

>>25283256
Yes, one minor effect of reading Capital is helping me understand why blacks are so lazy and careless at work. Because of their history they understand better than most, at least intuitively, that they’re being fucked over. Whites buy into it more, they also snitch more. I used to resent Laquazhius taking 30 minutes on a 5 minute task; I wouldn’t tattle but I’d be annoyed. Now I just chuckle.

>>25283288

There is absolutely no reason to not be lazy at work if one is this spiritually alienated from the thing they are doing. You are going to be paid the same anyway.

Though I must say, the concept of alienation blew my mind as much as LTV. It's the kind of thing that is everywhere but you'll never notice is someone doesn't point it out.

>>25281884
yes thank you comrade

>>25283288
while this post is inherently racist and the poster should be banned, as its meant to be predominantly racist, there have been all sorts of startegies used by all sorts of people ot deal with the misfortune of certain types of labor. yessir and no sir being one amongst many.

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>>25283357
Yes, I tell people at work “why do they have to manage us like this? Why is zach stalking the halls looking for you slacking off? Does anyone supervise you cleaning your apartment at home?” They are receptive because they are black; they intuitively understand this shit. But at least where I work a true action would have to be black led. And I think they feel it’s not worth the risk. The young single ones are on board but the ones with families are very cautious. And contrary to pol blacks aren’t retards, I have to avoid white savior which means doing little more than subversive talk. We have a new elaborate process for cleaning equipment so I started advocating for stools to sit on while we clean. “Engineering has stools, why not us? Making us stand at this table is sadism, you’re inflicting pain for no reason.” This is getting real traction but it’s such a small victory. People with kids, recent immigrants and so on, will not go to the wall for these ideas ime so far.

>>25283156
havent read your whole argument with the other anon, but it seems alot of people really like to get hung up on the labor time thing. its like a gotcha point, people think.

but stocks had been around for over two centuries. marx wasnt ignorant of types of value, surely.

as to labor time, its well known that the closer you are to the london high street shop front, the more you are going to get from an exchange. i think that puts some perspective on the matter.

>>25283369
There’s nothing racist about it. It’s not their dna it’s their lived experience and inherited knowledge. I respect and like black people.

>>25283383
I predict you will be fired within six weeks.

>>25283383

Frankly each small action counts anon. It's a huge juggernaut workers are up against, and ironically one of their own making.

Tbh absorbing Marxist Kapital adjacent ideas made me go through a phase of temporary insanity. I don't even "see" money when I look at money. I see quantised and abstracted labour. Which can be replaced for someone else's actual labour in the form of a commodity.

I don't see commodities as just consumable objects anymore but as physical units of accumulated labour. And I "see" (in a quasi-schizo manner), the effect this material reality of commodity production has on our collective minds. How we changed as a culture because our production realities shifted.

>>25283156
LTV is based on socially average labor required to make something, not how much went into that particular something. Fluctuations in this are dealt with on one end through futures contracts. Capitalists taking losses is covered by Marx and especially by Lenin in the OP pic where their deliberate losses in competition is discussed. But this has nothing to do with the cost of labor, especially if you at how low labor is paid on some parts of the supply chain

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>>25283171
>What the fuck are you talking about, all the classical economists were trying to crack the business cycle, which involves losses. Marx alludes to losses and business failures all the time.

Then Marx is completely wrong and like Smith, misunderstood how each agent deals in the hierarchy of production.

The capitalist risks for profit in the future, the employee earns salary in the present (if the employee is not paid, of course, it is fraud).

Losses are necessary for you to understand where salaries come from. When the expectation of profit declines (remember Covid-19), what happens? Layoffs, immediately, to the maximum extent allowed by law.

>>25283192
I read Critique of the Gotha program and Communist Manifesto, I am not going to read through your marxist tome when the people who have read it themselves teach it poorly at schools and argue for it worse.

Yes, I have a Mises.org background, yet I do not like that place, nor it is spineless, useless philosophy, nor its economics. Jewish Schumpeter (Mises) is not nearly as an enticing author as he is made to be, and his essays on socialist economic calculation are basic economics problems that the socialists were trying to deal with it.

I am coming for discussion with Marxists because very clearly something is VERY wrong in the current system, and I am not throwing out any good idea because my dad disliked Marx.

If only Marxists actually knew something of their mentor, maybe my search would be productive.

>>25283384
The LTV is part of the problem. People like the Gotcha! because it is easy, and they throw down the 'digging a hole in my backyard creates value, according to Marx'. It is a dumb strawhat, since any reading of Marx shows that LTV is related to the historical and economic context of mine workers and already useful work in the division of labour, where, presumably, any additional input extracts more output, and the more input (time) you put in, the more value you extract.

>>25283406
> Tbh absorbing Marxist Kapital adjacent ideas made me go through a phase of temporary insanity. I don't even "see" money when I look at money. I see quantised and abstracted labour. Which can be replaced for someone else's actual labour in the form of a commodity.
Yup, I had the same experience, it is a legit red pill. Not a fake red pill that confirms the prejudices you already halfway had but a true shift.

>>25283383
This is Confederacy of Dunces.

>>25283421
You talk about the hierarchy of production like it’s a fact of nature but it is not. I hope you meet a plump bottomed black girl and cum inside her, it will be a liberating experience. Black chicks love whites, just talk to one.

>>25282150
>Argentina
Has been a banana republic the entire 20th century, and so far in the 21st.
They could have created a metal extraction cartel back in the day, and still can. Or they could have tried to segregate out the mining from te economy, and create a Sovereign wealth fund to not get a complete system collapse like England did.

But still, completely crashing their economy with trying to take out their pension fund was a fun ride. And hopefully a good warning to the Euro states who practice similar ideas.

>who is behind all of this
Nobody.
Looking for culprits or ghosts instead of admitting there is some shortsighted idiots in there for their own gain is... the true sign of a midwit.

>>25282271
You are 100% correct from the investment POV.
From the company POV, the problem with stocks is that IF the majority shareholders are just stockholders, the company is going to start a cycle where its trying to stop its growth completely for the sake of cashing out via stock dividends.

>>25281903
Twitter is that way

>>25281886
>All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the bourgeoisie
LOL victim mentality because all your ideas and beliefs are wrong and stupid and everyone can see that.
Only trannies find these rants to be "powerful". He clearly didn't know what he was talking about.

>>25281903
It's because they're trannies. These freaks literally have bleeding open wounds in their crotch and their unable to go outside because of it.

>>25281907
>omg isn't the world messed up? we're all doomed! except we have all the answers right here in this pamphlet!"

Except most people who haven't known Marx don't even know what's EXACTLY so messed up with the world

>>25283471
cringe tranny freak.

>>25284150
>>25284111
You can tell the wind is shifting by how little effort the chuds put into their posts. They are low-effort because on some level they themselves no longer believe in it. Every Marx thread you guys get absolutely destroyed.

>>25281886
Why is he so against liberalism.
Liberalism is left wing.

I don't think Lenin gets to lecture anyone on imperialism when the Soviet Union invaded almost all of their neighbours and practised internal colonialism.

>>25281884
There was a great Marxist named Lenin
Who did two or three million men in.
That’s a lot to have done in
But where he did one in
That grand Marxist Stalin did ten in.

>>25282315
Marxists no longer concern tjemselves with labour issues. Their lore oressing concern is letting in as many migrants as possible.

>>25284184

You don't even know what colonialism is do you? Or imperialism for that matter

>>25284177
>Liberalism is left wing.

Lol. Maybe that's why the orange hero of the right wing is a conservative God fearing family man and not a liberal philandering, borderline rapist who married a topless model

>>25284171
I resent that racist insult.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud

>>25284171
2 more months of spamming /lit/ and the chuds will transition xister.

>>25284192
Are you FOX news? Are you paid by FOX news? You have no arguments, you are running on fumes and racialist outrage. Only low IQs fall for this transparent rhetoric.

>>25284196
marxists always redefine common politically and emotionally charged terms within their own pseudo-science.

>>25284205
Correct. Trump is not a liberal and the right has been calling out liberals for almost a decade now bevaise liberals are anti-capitalist.

>>25284213
>Trump is not a liberal

Kek

>>25284211
Am I wrong though? Self-proclaimed marxists are famous for being self-hating degenerates, be it hating on ther gender or people or culture.

>>25284224
Correct. Liberal is synonymous with social justice, woke and leftism, progressivism and anti-capitalism

>>25284235
>>25284229
>let’s all argue about the word ‘liberal’ even though every educated person knows it’s homonymous
The Marxist posts are objectively more intelligent and interesting than the chud posts. Every thread is like this.

>>25284235

This js what amerimutt politics does to your brain.

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>>25284212
Imperialism is a new term. Originally "imperial" meant pertaining to an emperor and his sovereignty, and an "imperialist" was someone who backed the emperor as an ideology, similar to how a royalist was in the king's camp. Imperialism in the modern sense was inherited by the unique empire under a queen, the British Empire. The British Empire unlike most prior empires or states was not simply expansionist, it was about expansion of markets specifically in give lebensraum to capitalism, since capitalism needs more qualitatives to quantify constantly, if it doesn't expand, it dies. Lenin was the first theorist to describe this phenomenon, his description of it is not just a foreign policy, it is something practiced domestically as well.

Lenin actually abolished the Russian Empire. The USSR expanded to its former size due to WWII

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>>25284235
Welcome to Murca, where the liberals are statists and the conservatives are radicals. Fucking clown country.

>>25284479
that's a lie, the ussr under lenin invaded and subjugated a number of countries that tried to gain independence such as ukraine.
>The British Empire unlike most prior empires or states was not simply expansionist, it was about expansion of markets specifically in give lebensraum to capitalism, since capitalism needs more qualitatives to quantify constantly, if it doesn't expand, it dies
this is obviously false since no expansionist states exist today except russia and irrelevant third world shitholes and maybe china and usa and israel but they're certainly not doing it for economic reasons so this is just another example of marxist subhumans seeing their theories fail at capturing reality, making up ad-hoc fixes and rationalizations that later on also get superceded so they have to add further rationalizations and post hoc fixes to their previous ones.

>>25284235
trvth nvke,

If Marxism is so based and correct, then why are Marxists so gay and annoying?

>>25281886
Crazy how prescient he was.

>>25285194
As opposed to what political camp?

>>25285218
I wouldn't really align myself with any one camp myself as I believe I need to read and educate myself more politically before doing so. There are tendencies that annoy me amongst all factions but Marxists seem to be the most insufferable to me for some reason.

>>25285224
If you find Marxism more annoying than Trumpism, then you should do some soul searching.

>>25285229
>Brings up trump out of nowhere
>Doesn't consider that not everyone lives in the USA
>You need to heckin' do better!
This is exactly what I mean.

>>25285194
they expect most people to be actively antagonistic towards their beliefs

>>25285231
You made a generalization that you found Marxism to be annoying, so I asked if there was any political camp you found less annoying, and you replied that every single one was less annoying. Trumpism although American has a large digital footprint not just on social media but on television and news, so I named it as another political camp.

>>25285245
I'm not on twitter or anything which I think would probably be where most of that Trumpism you're talking about would circulate. I don't like Trump in the slightest but what I was mainly trying to say was that I found Marxism the most annoying subjectively, not that it was the most morally vacant in my opinion. I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that the somewhat passive aggressive, 'holier than thou' attitude present in your reply telling me to "soul search" is off putting to me.

>>25285262
I have experience in sales and all you are doing is what most people do when confronted with a desire: they feel a corresponding loss of agency, and their first impulse is to place some sort of counter to their desire, in order to feel like they choose it. In your case, the desire is for Marxism, and the counter is, "it's annoying". The easiest counter for sales, "overturning an objection", is, "Okay, cool, do you find labor alienation annoying? Do you find capitalism annoying? Do you think fixing that would be a good thing?"

Soul searching, confronting false consciousness, is an important part of Marxism. Because many of the thoughts or feelings we take to be produced from within ourselves, are produced by capitalism and grow within us, "ideology". Capitalism is extremely good at that.

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>>25285273
For (You)

>>25285276
Based

>>25285273
I understand what you mean, but I'm unsure where you got the idea that I have a desire for Marxism from as I don't think I said anything that would imply that. I appreciate the thought you put into this reply and I'm more inclined to be interested in the "soul searching, confronting false consciousness" side of Marxism now that it's not delivered in as snarky a tone as before. I'm sure that you've probably spent a good amount of time engaging with the literature surrounding this, so can I ask why you take such a tone when it's less likely to get people on your side?

>>25283146
>You’re getting warmer but you still don’t get it because you haven’t read the book. LTV isn’t about explaining why something costs what it does. It’s explaining how your labor can be ‘hoovered’ into a temple horde or a capitalist’s balance sheet, the logic of this mysterious process. How did Uklak hunting a deer thirty years ago become a speck of gold in the temple of Ishtar?
The brief section on temple hording is my favorite part of the book. Why would temples accumulate gold over centuries and not bother to spend it? What happens when the hordes are raided and the metal enters circulation? Marx explains this.

>>25285295
I don't. If I were trying to convince you, it would be another matter. I am not because I know you already are convinced and are not so much as engaging with me as trying to sort out your thoughts to engage with them. No human being is convinced of something outside the norm, and that is that. His belief is beset constantly not just externally but by the ideology implanted in his head. Men who become firm in their beliefs and stay firm are men who have convinced themselves, which is all you are trying to do on a conscientious level. What you are actually examining is not at all whether you like me qua Marxist, but whether you would like yourself qua Marxist