Engels wrote a book, the Conditions of the English Working Class. In the chapter on immigration Engels says immigration functions to raise rent and lower wages and make the working class aliens in their own communities. That itself is a major economic fallacy. But look at the even bigger picture. Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communism and communism was a major movement at the time that played a role in the immigrant crisis. Engels intentionally overlooks the damage it is already causing just to blame capitalism. Communism basically shits the bed and then says communism is needed to fix it
>>25335230what did you think of the rest of the book?
The whole class distinction is a meme.Especially in modern times.
>>25335243It's hypocritical. Engels was "bourgois" himself, his family owned a factory but he seethes about da boojwazee>I have never seen a class so deeply demoralised, so incurably debased by selfishness, so corroded within, so incapable of progress, as the English bourgeoisie; and I mean by this, especially the bourgeoisie proper, particularly the Liberal, Corn Law repealing bourgeoisie. For it nothing exists in this world, except for the sake of money, itself not excluded. It knows no bliss save that of rapid gain, no pain save that of losing gold. In the presence of this avarice and lust of gain, it is not possible for a single human sentiment or opinion to remain untainted.
>>25335254How in the fuck does that lone fact discredit him? That makes no sense
>>25335269Communists claim to be the "voice of the working class" while all being trust fund babies. That discredits him for the same reason a prophet claiming to be from God is discredited when it turns out he is lying
>>25335272There is no such thing as a working class, it's all dynamic.
>>25335280I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or what you even mean
>>25335272Who are communists here? We were discussing Engels. Have you found such a quote from him?
>>25335288
>>25335295I'm not a leftist I have only asked for proof.
>>25335298>I'm not a leftistdoubt.jpg
>>25335230>Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communismIs this the power of the american education system?
>>25335303You were confident in your accusation of hypocrisy so I had assumed you discovered proof that discredits Engels. If you have such proof on hand I desire to read it for my own enrichment. I don't intend to be political.
In "Capitalism and the Historians," edited by F. A. Hayek, the essays by T. S. Ashton and W. H. Hutt give context to Engels' and others' gloomy view of the conditions of the English working class in the factories. There were indeed poor living conditions, in that their houses were shoddily built due to tariffs on building materials, taxes on certain types of housing, usury laws pricing builders out of loans, and other factors. But the shock of the upper class at the working conditions of the working class was partly because, prior to the Industrial Revolution, the working class was in the countryside and out of sight, so that the writers of the 19th Century were able to hold an unrealistically romantic view of life in the countryside. The working class themselves chose to work in the factories because it improved their real wages and therefore their overall living standards. There was a sensationalist view of overwork and danger to the children who worked in the factories, based on some discredited expert witness testimony in one case.
>>25335306>I'm not political, I'm just here to defend communismNo one's buying it, moshe
>>25335340The English industrial working class were actually very happy, same as today. Communists are always some retards who don't actually work and need to step in to "advocate" for the working class that never appointed them
>>25335349the cholera epidemics, smog and factory maimings were a real hoot i've heard
another terrible marxism thread populated by mongaloids who've never read a passage of marx.
>>25335344I never held any such intent. I apologize for my previous posts, however can you previsely quote a sentence where I am defending marxism? In order to better my phrasing. Thank you.
>>25335230>In the chapter on immigration Engels says immigration functions to raise rent and lower wages and make the working class aliens in their own communities.The idea that "immigration doesn't lower wages" from mostly neoliberal apologists is retarded because it's literally a supply and demand curve issue which they love beating Marxists over the head with at every opportunity. Of course it does. Engels was also married to an irish immigrant. So obviously pointing out this fact is not some statement in support of rounding all of the pakis or micks up and shipping them elsewhere. Also the claim about communism causing depressed wages in Engels' time is idiotic beyond measure.>>25335349You've never had to work a 12 hour day inhaling coal smog every day of your life to provide a bare minimum standard of living.
Its always the people who've never had an honest days work in their lives who want to throw out every idea socialism or marxism or communism ever had.Psychos
>>25335254this is the kind of retarded midwit take that people use to discredit gotama buddha.
>>25335424>>25335456Aw, those poor, stupid working class need you to come and defend them, huh? Because they're just too dumb to understand why they need communism?
>>25335730Honestly yeah the working class will vote against their own interests nearly every time
>>25335230so, eh, how is it a major economic fallacy?hmmmmm?and exactly which communist country in 1845 was causing mass migration, hmmmm?
>>25335340holy kek "distinguished conservative historians"anyone even opening such a book is begging to be lied to
>>25335780>communists didn't exist in 19th Century England
>>25335254no wonder english and jews get along so well
>>25335782the fatphobia in the middle ages, a survey
>>25335730please go on making more claims about the working class for my amusement, thank you.
Engels describes a stream that runs through a working class district in Liverpool that's literally black from filth, the district itself constantly stinking of rotten meat due to it's proximity to a massive tannery. I think he was lying about that desu, Hayek can't be wrong.
>>25335340>But the shock of the upper class at the working conditions of the working class was partly because, prior to the Industrial Revolution, the working class was in the countryside and out of sight, so that the writers of the 19th Century were able to hold an unrealistically romantic view of life in the countryside.TRVTH NVKE
>>25335456>>25335921yet conditions improved for the working class in England without ever being communist?
>>25335230>In the chapter on immigration Engels says immigration functions to raise rent and lower wages and make the working class aliens in their own communities. That itself is a major economic fallacy.How is it a "major economic fallacy"? Genuinely asking, because I'd say both American and European enterprises are hiring Indians or foreign workers for reducing the cost of labor both in IT and farm labor (https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor), if I didn't know any better.>Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communism and communism was a major movement at the time that played a role in the immigrant crisis.Again, you fail to say how "mass immigration comes from communism", for mass immigration is a pattern present in the US too, and I don't know if we can say America was a communist country in any point of its history. North Korea is a communist country, and I don't think there is a mass immigration phenomena happening there.
>>25335340>The working class themselves chose to work in the factories because it improved their real wages and therefore their overall living standards.I think tends to produce "class conflict" more than anything else is relative differences in status. Like the working class themselves chose to do it and their wages went up 3x but the bourgeoisie became 10x wealthier. Gets worse if that's followed by an economic downturn because you've had growing relative differences in status + rising expectations + sudden brakes on future expectations.People are really mentally teenagers but it's like being a poor kid at a ghetto high school vs. that poor kid who lives in the one shitty apartment complex in a largely affluent suburb and he goes to the high school and kids are driving sports cars their parents bought for them. That kid is going be like billions of rich kids must die fr:https://youtu.be/m5RbdReBMLE>>25335947>yet conditions improved for the working class in England without ever being communist?They did but workers also formed unions and child labor was gradually reduced. Also workers began receiving the vote and a lot of them went into the Labour Party which formed in 1900. One of the earlier pieces of legislation was the Mines Act of 1842 which made it illegal for boys under the age of 10 to work underground.
Also the relative status thing is real if you ever played school sports, competitive anything growing up. I went to a largely middle-class suburban school but we were tougher and meaner when facing the kids from the really rich school (Highland Park in Dallas), like we really wanted to beat them and make them cry and shit. But maybe it toughened them up and made them better owners of businesses their dads gave them.
>>25335230>false flag threadOP probably thinks he's le smart Trotskyite fifth columnist.
>>25336060>it wasn't REAL communism!
>>25336021>They did but workers also formed unions and child labor was gradually reduced. Also workers began receiving the vote and a lot of them went into the Labour Party which formed in 1900. One of the earlier pieces of legislation was the Mines Act of 1842 which made it illegal for boys under the age of 10 to work underground.yeah so a bunch of things that aren't communism?
>>25336294workers organizing and forcing concessions from the state is communism.
>>25335230>Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communismIs this bait?
>>25335230and what of wangles? and shingles? and hingle-mccringles?
>>25336956It's literally capitalism
>>25337255the labour movement is communism. read marx nigger
>>25335230has to be a false flag communist thread because the alternative is you are actually mentally disabled
This thread is so goofy
>>25337486Dumbfuck. The unions all advocate big-state socialism.
>>25337513Or maybe you're just economically illiterate
>>25335230>But look at the even bigger picture. Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communism HOLY RETARD>Communism basically shits the bed and then says communism is needed to fix itOne could only wish communism was as powerful as retarded OP makes it out to be. Instead communism can barely achieve it's goals nowadays and even OP is left with blaming Communism for Capitalism's problems.
>>25335780>how is it a major economic fallacy?Read any book on economics or ask any economist>okay Karl Mar--Any ORTHODOX economist, not fringe kookoo heads
>>25337964>Read any book on economics or ask any economistBut you haven't read a single economics book in your entire life
>>25337971I have read multiple works by Friedman and Sowell and I minored in economics and read a lot of books pursuant to that
>>25337981>multiple works by Friedman and SowellThat explains the brain damage
>>25335230>But look at the even bigger picture. Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communism and communism was a major movement at the time that played a role in the immigrant crisis./lit/ is truly the modern House of Wisdom
>>25338187Epic snarky reddit sarcasm my good sir!
>>25335230>Engels says immigration functions to raise rent and lower wagesFucking on point, still in 2026. We always talk about immigration as a reserve army to lower the wages, and thus make more profit, but there is also a real estate market component to it. Indeed, in this day, the real market estate industry loves a constant flux of new people, in order to push real estate prices constantly up. With no mass immigration, real estate prices tend to go down, since people are aging, and population renewal is negative, in most first world countries.
>>25335230>Mass immigration isn't even caused by capitalism it comes from communismWhat are you talking about you unread retard, Marx was explicitly critique of immigration. Like most stupid tradcels, you are mistaking pro-immigration Georges Soros (who is not a communist by the way) for Karl Marx. Quote from Marx: "But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class." Source: Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt,London, April 9, 1870https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm
>>25335246>The whole class distinction is a meme.Jesus Christ this level of absurd stupidity. There is not distinction for you between Jeff Bezos and the Amazon Warehouse wagie. I mean at one point you have to calm down with the idiocy.
>>25335349>The English industrial working class were actually very happySure they were working 80 hours a week, up to the point of dying of exhaustion in the factories and in the mines. You are insulting your very ancestor, who have lived through those times.
>>25337981Still hasn't read Das Kapital have you? It's easier to shitpost on 4chan.
>>25336060Nice strawman.
>>25339985You don't know what a strawman is.
I don't know if this is the right place for this but I think a lot of people on this board are, and I mean genuinely, retarded
