De consolatione editio>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·>>25396989>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mέγα τὸ ANE·https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
for Greekanons
Did you do your reps and daily reading anon?
>>25423378yes
>>25422140>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxYoFlnJLoE [Embed]>'The Poor Man of Nippur' in Akkadian with subtitles in English and other languages. The only thing I don't get is why the professor in the beginning says māt Akkadi 𒆳𒌵𒆠, literally 'land of Akkad' if the subtitles say 'land of Babylonia'.
Any Old French speakers in? Especially of Anglo-Norman dialects specifically? I sure hope so
>>25423463Btw if you want a relatively easy way to convert the cuneiform transliteration into actual characters, EBL has a great conversion tool:https://www.ebl.lmu.de/tools/cuneiform-converterIf syllable characters and logograms are typed with spaces, it will produce spaces in the output. If they are typed with hyphens, it will produces non-spaced output. A propos, a highly recommended manual of Akkadian by Huehnergard (3rd edition, clean searchable .pdf) + keys:omnika dot org/library/key-to-a-grammar-of-akkadian-3ed - manualdokumen dot pub/qdownload/a-grammar-of-akkadian-3nbsped.html - keysA lot of resources I recommended for Sumerian last year actually overlap with Akkadian, so whoever updates the OP FAQ, please make a separate section for Akkadian and duplicate the relevant links, or make a shared section for cuneiform languages.>>25423480The best I can offer is modern French. I did try reading Chanson de Roland in Old French, it and requires consulting the dictionary quite a lot (like, 30% of words at least) if you don't study it as a proper separate language. I didn't go far past the beginning, so maybe it's doable as you grind it on.
>>25423523>omnika dot org/library/key-to-a-grammar-of-akkadian-3ed - manual>dokumen dot pub/qdownload/a-grammar-of-akkadian-3nbsped.html - keysDamn, the other way around.
>>25423480I present to you Anon for your amusement, a misogynistic poem from the Middle Ages period in Old French about the evils of women.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cS322gHBGow&list=RDcS322gHBGow&start_radio=1&pp=ygUTVGhlIGphaWxlcnMgZWluaG9ybqAHAQ%3D%3D&ra=mOfficial name is: Tant y a femme scet bon tairThe poem is online if you search that. “A’onions cera d’acun complainte/ ir se mout sainte et mout juste.”
>>25423368ill roll and report
>>25423659ok i looked at Hero's Belopoeica 71-72pretty standard attic style with some words that i've never seen beforeταραχθήσονταί was tricky for me but this seems to be from τάραξις, which i should be familiar with through ἀταραξίαthe ξ aspirates in contact with the (typically aorist, here future because of primary endings and sigma) passive marker θή(σ)if ἀταραξία is tranquility, τάραξις is disturbance, and made into a future passive verb, "they will be disturbed"fun thanks
If i learn Hebrew can I read old scrolls?
>>25423855Yes
>>25423855you might be able to audit a biblical hebrew course from your local university. my uni is offering one this fall—not taking it bc im on fellowship and need to write
>>25423674it's from the verb ταράσσω(root ταραχ-) which I think even precedes in etymological order ταραξία and the rest
>>25424195oh nice thanks
people in the last thread were talking about Arabic and how it lacks good content, but I wonder are Persian and Turkish better?
>>25424481In the same vein I’ve always been curious about chagatai. It was a major literary medium for like 600 years or something. But I doubt there’s much scholarship outside of central asia nowadays on it, even though a lot of the corpus is mughal.
you know the drillWikipedia challenge: Go on Wikipedia, click on 'random article' and describe what it is about in your TL.Easy mode: 50 wordsMedium: 75 wordsHard: 100+ words
>>25424537Actually there are a few English textbooks on Chagatai and some Russian and Chinese ones as well. The Chagatai-language Tarikh-e-Hemidi is a very important account of late Qing Xinjiang history and has been translated into English, modern Uyghur, and Chinese, and there are also various other histories and documents from Xinjiang and pre-Russian Uzbekistan.It's easiest to learn Chagatai if you have an understanding of modern Uzbek or Uyghur, it's basically just Uyghur with more Persian grammar and a few words with different meanings For instance därya is sea in Chagatai and river in Uyghur (Uyghur uses Turkic dëñiz for sea)
>>25424607Filum concertinum est quiddam genus fili ferrei hamati, id est, cum spinis. Nomen habet de instrumento musico quod "concertinam" dicunt. Textum in spiris inter palos, potest hostes aut Mexicanos nostris finibus prohibere. Item potest captivos retinere ne ex carcere effugiant. Esti perutile est in bello, tamen periculosum est si tangitur.
>>25424607Caesar Gambara episcopus fuit. Natus est anno 1516 in Italia. Ecclesiam reformare voluit post Concilium Tridentinum. Multos pauperes adiuvit et novam cathedralem aedificavit. Multos annos dioecesim rexit. Mortuus est anno 1591.
>>25423378can you share which website/program this is?
>>25424810looks like Anki
>>25423368πάλῳ χρῶμαι
>>25424822>δισσώαὖθις >>25423368
>>25424720Barbed wire? Nice. You write in a non-pretentious way.
>>25424720>potest hostes aut Mexicanos nostris finibus prohibere.Kek
>>25424825>500 words from the Batrachomyomachialol so be it btw it seems like oxytone.xyz is back
>>25423360Imgbox appears to be down, does anyone have the Classical Chinese book chart?
>>25424935it should be this one if I'm not mistaken
>>25424940It is, thank you very much
https://github.com/eggrobin/EnmerkarAbsolute madmen actually made an IME keyboard layout for typing cuneiform languages for Windows and IME.To test it out, I typed the transliteration of Ur brick 90009 shown in Hayes' Manual of Sumerian:𒀭𒋀𒆠𒈗𒀀𒉌𒌨𒀭𒇉𒈗𒋀𒀊𒆠𒈠𒆤𒂍𒀀𒉌𒈬𒈾𒆕𒂦𒋀𒀊𒆠𒈠𒈬𒈾𒆕It works a lot like Chinese IME input except the position of signs is fixed according to the established Assyriologist numbering system instead of relative frequency of use. You can quickly select the required sign by typing in the digit or using arrows.
>>25424856I just read it all, hilarious work, didn't expect to be so enjoyable and readable as well, very much the language of Homer, if you read the latter you'll have no problem with it
>>25424810Anki with this deck https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1763694683
>>25425048how do I use this if I've already gone through 29 chapters of familia romana
>>25425050You can filter the cards by tag in the browser. Mass delete the ones you already know from ch1-29.
poasting the Latin one myself
>>25425448How dare you. It’s okay I’m just very busy. Rollan’
>>25425802>3. Primum est, ex eo quod mens humana in se con[8]versa non percipiat aliud se esse quàm rem cogitantem, non sequi ejus naturam sive essentiam in eo tantùm consistere, quod sit res cogitans, ita ut vox tantùm caetera omnia excludat quae forte etiam dici possent ad animae naturam pertinere. Cui objectioni respondeo me etiam ibi noluisse illa excludere in ordine ad ipsam rei veritatem (de quâ scilicet tunc non agebam), sed dumtaxat in ordine ad meam perceptionem, adeo ut sensus esset me nihil plane cognoscere quod ad essentiam meam scirem pertinere, praeterquam quod essem res cogitans, sive res habens in se facultatem cogitandi. In sequentibus autem ostendam quo pacto, ex eo quod nihil aliud ad essentiam meam pertinere cognoscam, sequatur nihil etiam aliud revera ad illam pertinere.It’s amazing how the forced break and a little Caesar practice has made my reading so much more fluid that I could largely understand the sentence structure first pass. It helps that the vocabulary is quite focused and narrow so I’m not having difficulty there. Alas classical latin of a specific 90 year period may be impossible to read smoothly I will just have to settle for unlocking the collective intellectual output of Europe from ~300-1700 which of course does not count.
Is there a copy of either the Iliad or odyssey in Greek with linguistic notes for a beginner learner?
>>25426205>linguistic notes for a beginnernot sure exactly what you are looking for, there's interlinears, at least for the Iliad there's one in the OP's links
>>25426205Try Pharr’s homeric greek
>>25426205Geoffrey Steadman
>>25425448do me fortunae
>>25423368arigatōgozaimasu senpai
I am so bored by Familia Romana
>>25423360Whats the best recordings youve found of greek and latin?
>>25426938How far are you? Read some medieval stuff. Steadman’s medieval latin books, or the gospels for late latin. Don’t stress about grammar you don’t know just get that volume in.
>>25426978chapter 29I find it frustrating, but I'm not good enough to read any real books. I might try Steadman's Fabulae ab urbe condita though
>>25426988>fabulae ab urbe conditafyi that one’s a bit difficult after FR. Ritchie’s fabulae faciles is easier and more interesting. It’s short stories about Perseus, Hercules, Jason, and Odysseus
>>25427017okay, thanks, I'll consider it. what else could I read that is interesting?
>>25426988>chapter 29When you say “i’m not good enough to read real books” do you mean like wholly unassisted monolingual texts or do you mean you don’t think you’re good enough for parallel texts or glossed texts like steadman? Because you’re definitely capable of the latter atp, and the former you shouldn’t be really capable of until your vocabulary grows. The intermediate plateau in Latin is largely the march to gain vocabulary via reading volume, and parallel texts are typically a good way to do that.At your current level there’s zero reason you shouldn’t be able to go tackle a parallel translation of the gospels for example.
>>25427056like a retard I believed the comprehensible input people which led me to not really study grammar properly or do exercises and now I really really struggle with tenses, I don't really recognize the word endings and can't tell apart subjunctive from other tenses and stuff. studying from LLPSI was a waste of time
>>25427076Your outlook is overly pessimistic. You’re actually in basically the exact state I was at that point. Simply put, the high volume CI approach doesn’t encourage close reading, so you’re bad at close reading. It’s not wasted volume though. If you’ve been rereading you have processed a substantial amount of latin, and you have acquired a robust beginner vocabulary. You lack an explicit ability to name inflections and pick apart sentence structure, you are NOT deficient in Latin relative to someone who has put the same time in with a different method. Since acquisition takes fucking forever, you’ve done a lot of the hard part. What the intermediate stage looks like is basically carefully reading a lot of authentic text with aids like a Loeb. Remedial grammar work is fine too, but the most efficient thing to do for reading is simply to carefully read the explanations in something like Wheelock’s rather than to sit down and grind a bunch of exercises. Basically, if you’ve put 55 hours into familia romana you will be better at reading after 5 hours of reading grammar explanations (on top of your input diet) than someone who spent 60 hours grinding wheelock all the way through. The problem with the CI approach is it makes you feel retarded for a long time but it has definitely worked for me. Don’t compare yourself to someone doing a grammar course, because your skillset and their skillset are lopsided in completely opposite directions.I didn’t actually learn the subjunctive in Familia Romana, I learned it by reading my Grammar book’s explanation of it because I kept seeing it in the gospels. Basically, you can read, and assuming you’re that Lithuanian anon, you can read a great deal more than a monolingual anglophone at your point, so just get to it and be patient. The hardest part is the cases, verb tenses are more regular and often context driven so you can input even if your grasp on most tenses is that something is past-ish.Picrel was my grammar guide, it’s basically just a modernized trimmed down wheelock. It’s not digitized anywhere but it’s like $20.
>>25426988So you mean you're practically done with the book? The whole book is 35 chapters, and of those, chapter 34 is like the graduation party, where it introduces you to Latin poetry. Chapter 35 is just an in-Latin summary of the basics of Latin grammar (which is an easier read than the preceding chapters). If you're finding the ending chapters frustratingly difficult, go back and review some of the prior chapters as a reminder of how far you've come and to loot them of their vocabulary. (You're going to need as much vocabulary as you can get your hands on, so loot everything that's not bolted down.)I second the recommendation for Fabulae Faciles >>25427017. It starts out very easy and gets progressively harder over the sections. The vocabulary glosses on the Steadman edition will also be a big help. Fabulae Faciles (which I read in the Steadman edition) was a very important book in my own education. I also agree that Fabulae Urbae Condita is probably more difficult than Fabulae Faciles, but less difficult the more you know about early Roman history going into it. Both these books are worth re-reading multiple times for learning purposes, so it's okay if you struggle with parts and not everything is 100% comprehension the first time around.For "real literature," you are probably also at a point where you could try reading through one of the Vulgate Gospels. If you made it through chapter 29, you should know enough grammar to make sense of difficult parts. Skimming over the "grammatica Latina" sections in the end of the book, the main thing you'll need that you haven't seen yet is the "future perfect (indicative)" tense. The vocabulary will be a struggle, but you can try reading part of it in Latin, then read the corresponding section in English, then re-read the section in Latin again. If you feel like you got to a satisfactory level of understanding of the Latin, set it aside and come back to it later that day or the next day or whenever you want and re-read it to test how much you retained.The Gospels are good for learning grammar. They shelter you from some grammatical constructions that are confusing. For example, one thing that makes the "easy" author Caesar a real challenge is the extended passages of dialog where all the dialog is reported in indirect discourse, where you keep losing track of which party "se" or "suus" or "eius" or "ipse" refers to, or whether the accusatives are the subjects or the objects of the clauses. Despite tending toward simpler syntax, they will give you a lot of practice with concepts that are "advanced" in the scheme of Familia Romana (or the typical Latin course in school), like the conjunctive/subjunctive.You could also try Epitome Historiae Sacrae. Using the LLPSI edition will help some with the vocabulary. I have the sense that the difficulty increases a little bit over the course of the book, but I'm not certain whether that's intentional.
>>25427121I have a copy of Wheelock's I'll read through after Familia Romana, so I guess I shouldn't worry too much>>25427131okay, I'll give the Steadman books a try then
I took the first 11 verses from Matthew 2, to give a concrete example of what "advanced" grammar are there as exercise for the LLPSI student. The point is that pretty much every verse, you can point to a subjunctive verb or something.>1 Cum ergo natus esset Jesus in Bethlehem Juda in diebus Herodis regis, ecce magi ab oriente venerunt Jerosolymam,Cum-clause with pluperfect subjunctive.>2 dicentes: Ubi est qui natus est rex Judaeorum? vidimus enim stellam ejus in oriente, et venimus adorare eum.Purpose clause with infinitive instead of an "ut" clause. Less orthodox grammar, but also easier for budding young readers.>3 Audiens autem Herodes rex, turbatus est, et omnis Jerosolyma cum illo.I'm not sure how late the perfective passive was introduced, but aside from that, there is "audiens Herodes rex,' which is a non-intuitive construction for English-speakers and needs to be reinforced by many examples.>4 Et congregans omnes principes sacerdotum, et scribas populi, sciscitabatur ab eis ubi Christus nasceretur.Indirect question with subjunctive.>5 At illi dixerunt: In Bethlehem Judae: sic enim scriptum est per prophetam:Direct quotation instead of indirect speech.>6 Et tu Bethlehem terra Juda, nequaquam minima es in principibus Juda: ex te enim exiet dux, qui regat populum meum Israel.Relative clause with subjunctive.>7 Tunc Herodes clam vocatis magis diligenter didicit ab eis tempus stellae, quae apparuit eis:Maybe no "advanced" grammatical constructions by LLPSI standards, but we're learning the word "clam.">8 et mittens illos in Bethlehem, dixit: Ite, et interrogate diligenter de puero: et cum inveneritis, renuntiate mihi, ut et ego veniens adorem eum.Future perfect. Ut+subjunctive.9 Qui cum audissent regem, abierunt, et ecce stella, quam viderant in oriente, antecedebat eos, usque dum veniens staret supra, ubi erat puer.Cum with pluperfect tense. Pluperfect indicative. Dum with imperfect subjunctive.10 Videntes autem stellam gavisi sunt gaudio magno valde.Deponent verb.11 Et intrantes domum, invenerunt puerum cum Maria matre ejus, et procidentes adoraverunt eum: et apertis thesauris suis obtulerunt ei munera, aurum, thus, et myrrham.Ablative absolute.
>>25427176I think this is still too hard for me
>>25427188Oh my gosh nigger just open a parallel translation and try your best ffs. The concepts are only advanced in terms of the order LLPSI chooses to present them, these sentences are simple, you just don’t know the vocabulary and the patterns. His point was that it teaches a lot of “advanced” usage in a form that is very simple (mainly because the sentences are paratactic et…et… type structures).Here’s John 1:1-2 to get you started goober>In principio erat verbum et verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat verbum. Hoc erat in principio apud Deum.
>>25427076let this man spoon feed you the first few chapters of Caesar DBG (each video is only 3-4 mins long), it will advance your understanding of grammar considerably:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEC2sC2cPY4Ax7hmyRp3Bkqlaco821jIL
>>25427076Your post makes me feel bad because I hate seeing someone demoralized who's come so far. You might not appreciate this, but if you've gone through 28 or 29 chapters of LLPSI, you've really accomplished a lot. If a high school teacher were using LLPSI as their textbook, the material would cover at least two or three years of classes.LLSPI is not really a true "comprehensible input" method. In LLPSI, if you're starting from scratch, the reading is often not immediately clear, and you have to do some thinking to deduce the meaning of a word, or how a grammatical construction works. At the same time, LLPSI is teaching you grammatical constructions explicitly, and you're supposed to learn the names and forms of those grammatical instructions explicitly. LLSPI is only comprehensible input if you already learned enough Latin from another course that you could come through and read through the book from cover to cover without any serious difficulty.>now I really really struggle with tenses, I don't really recognize the word endings and can't tell apart subjunctive from other tenses and stuff. studying from LLPSI was a waste of timeYou can't really blame this on LLPSI, because LLPSI teaches these endings and expects you to learn them. The problem is that you made the mistake of listening to "comprehensible input people" and applied their message to LLPSI, which is not sufficient "comprehensible input" by itself to learn Latin. LLPSI follows the scheme of a traditional grammar course. It just tries to teach the grammar and the vocabulary from context as much as possible, which it does a good job at. If you think you understand the grammatical concepts well, you should review the old chapters, and read the "Latine Disco" for each chapter. You should be reviewing old chapters anyway to firmly acquire as much of the vocabulary as possible.I do think that the "comprehensible input" message is correct, and I've been using comprehensible input to learn Spanish this year just to see it goes. The problem with Latin is not that comprehensible input wouldn't be a good way to teach Latin, but there's not enough of a trove of CI, particularly AUDIO-VISUAL CI, to easily learn Latin via CI alone. We need to front-load the grammar to chip away at materials that are not immediately comprehensible and get at the comprehensible meat inside, like eating a lobster.
>>25427380>>25427076The more you actually try reading Latin, the more you'll understand that "recognizing the word endings" is not as important as you think it is. I'll give a few specific arguments. The argument I'm trying to make is that being able to tell the exact ending is not always critical, there are parts of the endings that are more important than others, some groups of endings are more important than others, that there's a lot more that goes into actually understanding a sentence than being able to identify the endings.- With verbs, the tense is not the most important thing. Person is more important, and even if your knowledge of the tenses is uncertain, the very ending of the verb is the critical part. As far as active verbs go, -o/-m, -s, -t, -mus, -tis, -nt covers almost everything. If you're reading extended passages, depending on factors like genre and so forth, the narrative might be entirely narrated in past tense(s), and all the verbs are third person (or forms that don't have person). I'm not saying that you shouldn't strive to get better at recognizing the exact verb forms with time, but that being able to rattle off conjugation tables or parse verbs doesn't mean you're going to be able to understand the sentence that contains them.- "Recognizing" subjunctives (which, to be pedantic, are not a "tense" properly speaking) is a vocabulary issue, not a grammar issue. The present subjunctive is the hard one because the subjunctive is because of a different vowel relative to the indicative. You can't recognize present subjunctive from learning "the subjunctive." The only way to recognize these subjunctives is to know the words, so the word is obviously subjunctive. Otherwise, a subjunctive form like "dicat" might as well be indicative (from "dicare"). To learn how to form the present subjunctive, use the mnemonic "wE bEAt A lIAr." There, you've mastered the subjunctive. Now comes the actual work of learning the vocabulary. -The future indicative tense of the third and fourth declensions has a similar problem. You can use the mnemonic that "e" indicates the futurE and "a" indicates the subjAnctive. But there's an exception in the first-person singular. What form is "dicam?" Is it future indicative or present subjunctive? That's not a question that can be answered by endings. That can only be answered by understanding how the verb is used in its context.- The two other main forms of the subjunctive (maybe the most important forms if you're reading past tense) are the imperfect and pluperfect subjunctives. Those are incredibly easy to form and (especially in the case of the pluperfect) to recognize, because they're just the present infinitive or perfect infinitive, plus the personal endings. E.g., "Haberent" and "habuissent." If you read lots of examples of these forms, these will feel like your closest friends (unlike the present subjunctive) because they are so obvious.
>>25427380it took me around 5 months to get to this point. I studied somewhere around 2 hours per day on average. Generally speaking I understand everything I've read, but I'm still nervous and, as you say, demoralized.I don't want to review old chapters now as I'm bored of the textbook, but I might do it later. like I said, I will read Wheelock's after Familia Romana while reading these intermediate textsI'm sorry I can't respond to you with such verbose posts, as I don't really have much to say. I'm also reading Fabulae Syrae and even though it's extremely boring I can still read itwhat you people are saying about vocabulary I think is pretty correct
>>25427392- Here's another point that a lot of people overlook, especially in regards to nouns. Elision. You may not have learned this yet, but they say that the endings of Latin words were not pronounced (or at least blended) with the following word if the first word ends with a vowel sound (including vowel+m) and the following word begins with a vowel sound (including h+vowel). Keep that in mind that when Cicero was giving a speech in the Senate, a good number of the written endings that you think you need to interpret the meaning of the sentence wouldn't really have been pronounced.>>25427188If you work at it, it will become easy. For now, try the Fabulae Faciles and see how it goes.
>>25427433since you're talking about pronunciation and you seem to know what you're talking about, are there any good complete reference materials for classical pronunciation?
>>25425448Roll
>>25427429That’s a real achievement. I took much longer but I also was more like 30-45 minutes a day. For remedial grammar work one thing that I found helped a lot was to reread FR once through focused specifically on naming and parsing all the words, so I would read the grammatica for the chapter to refresh myself on the new material, and then go carefully read the whole chapter. I would also first about read the relevant grammar concepts in my grammar book.
Does anyone know where I can download all of Luke's Ranieri-Dowling Method material for Latin and Attic Greek online?
>>25426873>O crux! o vehemens continuo labor!>O quantis homines se miseri terunt>Curis! quam gravibus saepe periculis>Quaerunt, ut pereant, ut doleant, student!>Felix, quae petitur, Vita negotio>Quam posset facili, si saperet, dari>Humano generi! diffugientibus>Curis, inque Deo spe posita, memor>Ut sis officii, fungere partibus>Iussis. hoc oritur fonte beatitas:>Hac coelum petitur, si petitur, via.>Non est Vita labor prospera, sed quies.A-men
>>25425448>>25429031>Interim Hludowicus rex gravi dolore contristatus, videns regnum deleri, convocato exercitu praeparat se ad proelium.The king, seeing his realm attacked, prepares for war.>At Nortmanni omnia prospera agentes cum magno exercitu fluvium Sumnam mense Iulio transeunt, cuncta vastantes more solito usque prope civitatem Belvagorum.omnia prospera agentes = homines quibus cuncta negotia feliciter proceduntThe Normans make their way to Beauvais, laying waste to all on the way.>Hludowicus vero rex cum exercitu transiens Hisam fluvium Latverum tendere coepit, quo credebat Nortmannos redire.The king's army moves to Laviers, where the king believed the Normans would return.>Missis itaque exploratoribus, nuntiant redire eos honustos a praeda.Spies announce the return of the Normans.>Contra quos rex ire perrexit obviavitque eos in pago Witmau, in villa quae dicebatur Sathulcurtis, et commissum est proelium.The army meets the Normans and the battle begins.>Moxque Nortmanni fugam ineunt atque dictam villam deveniunt; quos rex insecutus est gloriosissimeque de eis triumphavit.deveniunt = perveniuntThe king routs the Normans.>Et patrata victoria ex parte coeperunt gloriari suis hoc actum viribus et non dederunt gloriam Deo.patrata = accomplishedex parte coeperunt gloriari suis hoc actum viribus = partim coeperunt gloriari quod hanc victoriam factum esse cum suis viribusThe army glorified themselves for this victory and not God.>Paucique Nortmanni ex dicta villa egressi, omnem exercitum vertit in fugam, pluresque ex eis, videlicet usque ad centum homines, interfecerunt; et nisi rex citius equo descendens locum resistendi et audaciam suis donaret, omnes turpiter ex eodem loco fugiendo abirent.Some remaining Normans attack the army, killing one hundred, and the army would have fled wretchedly had not the king encouraged them to fight.>Hac vero patrata victoria, quia multos contigit ibi ruere Nortmannos, rex ovans repedavit trans Hisam, perpauci vero Dani, qui evasere, interitum suorum nuntiavere in castra, indeque Nortmanni Hludowicum regem adolescentem timere coeperunt.ovans = rejoicingThe king returned home rejoicing. Some surviving Danes gave word of the defeat, and the Normans began to fear the young king.>Rex quoque adunato exercitu in pago Camaracensium venit castrumque sibi statuit in loco qui dicitur Strum ad debellationem Danorum.adunato = unitedThe king regrouped his men in preparation for battle with the Danes.>Nortmanni hoc cognoscentes Gandavum rediere suisque reparatis navibus terra marique iter facientes Mosam ingressi sunt et in Haslao sibi sedem firmant ad hiemandum. The Normans hearing this repair their ships and leave for the winter.
>3 months learning attic greek. >working on participlesIs this a good pace? Still feel like an absolute beginner
Old Norse seems fun, and not terribly hard, but the size of its corpus is offputting
>>25423368Roll
>>25429750as long as you are feeling motivated it means you are proceeding at an acceptable pace, and considering how rich the ancient Greek verb system is you shouldn't rush
I'm finding the later parts of LLPSI somewhat easier. I remember being very frustrated at chapter 6, 8, 10, then it started to get better and easier for me
>>25430652In this lecture by a college professor, she identifies the following chapters as being sticking points in her classes.- Chapter 1- Chapter 2- Chapter 6- Chapter 8- Chapter 13- Chapter 15- Chapter 29- Chapter 32https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adv_lbelCJk
>>25428199https://luke-ranieri.myshopify.comHonestly, even if you can find it for free, are you really sure that's how you want to study the language? Looping through playlists of these audiofiles on your iPod and logging reps in a spreadsheet?
>>25423360I want to learn Ancient Greek. I was recommended the Keller / Russell Learn to Read Greek books elsewhere. Are they good to start with?
>>25430856>go on a walk when the weather is nice>come back knowing a new declension by heartYeah.
>>25430517Very motivated. Thanks anon.
>>25423360Could I get the Latin and Old/Middle English charts, imgbox is down
>>25432102
>>25432108might have to switch image hosting site if this persists
>>25432111Thanks
>>25427429For the Bible, consider the psalms. There’s friction at first like with all real texts, but the vocabulary is very repetitive and full of cognates, and the sentences are short, contained in short memorable chapters, so it’s a great bootcamp to solidify your ability to parse.
>>25427433One thing I always wondered about was how far the dropping of the “e” in “est” before a vowel actually was. Because I hear some people say “factum est” as like, “facktoomst” with not even the slightest hint of the E, and it kind of just sounds dumb. Idk maybe if I try to read aloud more it’ll feel more natural.Would factum est be “factum’st” or “factu(m)’st” with the M mostly elided?
>>25432184far enough that in Plautus it's even explicit, not just hinted through phonology>Nullust hoc metuculosus aequethe e seem to even disappear in front of words like onus>habendum et ferundum hoc onust cum labore
>>25432192It makes sense I guess since we do the same thing in English all the time with the 3rd person singular copula. Just never really thought about it before learning Latin.
>>25429914It's smaller than Arabic, Classical Chinese, Sanskrit, Ancient Greek and Latin sure but it's not small relative to other languages
if anyone for some reason enjoys both latin and project zomboid, i whored both google gemini, tokenly; and myself spirtually, out over a short period translating the game into latin. 99% of all the translation was done with ai, there is no credit to be had here but enjoy it if you want to https://limewire.com/d/dLahS#IWhSbDqagPmake a folder in steamapps\common\ProjectZomboid\media\lua\shared\Translate called 'LA' and place in all the files except 'fonts.txt' and all the zomboid .pngs. in steamapps\common\ProjectZomboid\media\fonts make a folder called 'LA' and drop in the 'fonts.txt' file and inside make four folders titled '1x', '2x', 3x', '4x' and each one should have one set of 'zomboidLarge.fnt', 'zomboidLarge_0.png'; 'zomboidMedium.fnt', 'zomboidMedium_0.png'; and 'zomboidSmall.fnt', 'zomboidSmall_0.png'. it should work. i'll continue working on it, and should any feedback pop into existence i will take heed of it
>>25432806I don’t play project zombiod though
>>25432877no worries, if you play it in the far future and i'm still alive by then i'll drop another link for you
>>25430856Like what the other anon said, looping through and memorizing declension while I'm out would be nice. I just managed to find the Latin for free, though it sadly looks like the Greek isn't up anywhere
>>25424607I wanted to improve this challenge because a downside imho, having tried it, is that a lot of the time you get things like sport-related articles, there must be a lot clearly, and it's kinda off putting as it's basically going to consist mostly in coming up with neologisms for every other word in there rather than a theme that could make for a reasonable TL challenge.I was thinking maybe one could use the simple English wiki in place of the normal English one, https://simple.wikipedia.org , as it should have quite fewer of these articles, but it's still not perfect.I also thought maybe one could use some tool that restricts random articles to certain topics(like history, geography and similar) and maybe also a certain length, maybe I ought to explore wiki APIs
I am now moving onto a research masters in Classics, specifically Greek Philosophy, but now I'm genuinely struggling to work out how people even identify research gaps in this field. It feels like every word of Plato and Aristotle has already been minutely dissected and I don't feel like I could possibly add anything new.
>>25434439Well typically when you enter that line of work it’s not with the express purpose of making some giant breakthrough with Platonic study but with explaining his thought to others.
kino, makes me want to learn greek to appreciate it completely
>>25434473>tfw too hunkered down by poetry/myths to jump back into Plato and then Aristoteles in Greek
ay yo niggas at what stage of Latin is a nigga to learn Greek? finna learn Greek eventually. after familia romana looks too early and shit, but roma aeterna might be too much. just a lil practice you know what I'm saying?
>>25424940not interested in learning classical chinese, but, it says that you can already start with intermediate if you know a SE language, but how can it be the case, aren't korean and japanese both utterly different from chinese? I've heard that korean even has more similarities with finish, than anything else
>>25430885use any grammar textbook in conjunction with a comprehensible input book. I can't comment on the ones you name, but I use Mastronarde + Logos by Cultura Classica. it's god-tier in my opinion and really accelerates my greek learning. I would interchange between the two books every 2 chapters. returning to the grammar book is infinitely less daunting after having read a chapter fluently from the CI book. that other anon earlier in this thread who only used LLPI rather than that in conjunction with a grammar really suffered due to it.in the CI book, I'd read each chapter thrice. my first read is cold and slow, I wanna see how much I can deduce and understand without looking anything up besides the marginalia, the second reading is to look up works that I forgot or whose explanations aren't present in the marginalia, and the third read is the one where I ideally understand the text perfectly or near-perfectly. then I do the exercises in the end. when I proceed to the next chapter (which never is on the same day), I revise simply by reading just my exercises, rather than the entire prior chapter, since the exercises are a condensed version of the chapter and the grammar concepts are readily apparent.
>>25432111is there one like this for greek? one with as much variety as this, rather than just 'here's a grammar/CI textbook and beginner texts'
>>25435464Grammatically they are different but 40-50% of their vocabulary is derived from Chinese. It's like how English is quite distantly related to Latin, our grammar is very different, but we have so much Latinate vocabulary from Latin and old French that we can recognise and read a lot of Latin by guessing. For Japanese speakers they know most of the characters already and that makes it so much easier, for Korean speakers they just use so many Chinese words that they should be able to recognise the correspondences.
>>25435547understood
>>25435549it's the same for Vietnamese as well, but a little harder because their Chinese words have gone through more sound changes, and they make multiple-character words the other way around, i.e. "Sino-Vietnamese border war" is 中越邊界戰爭 [China-Vietnam border war] in Chinese but 戰爭邊界越中 [war border Vietnam-China] in Vietnamese. And they don't use characters.
>>25435559I said I understood already
>>25435144you should have digested at least some basic real Latin authors, bare minimum reading Caesar with ease imho
>>25435547I wish Koreans didn’t abandon Hanja because it would make reading their text so similar to reading Japanese that cross-literacy would be way easier. They still use it in some contexts but it’s kind of an elitist/dinosaur type shit fr cuh sadly.>>25435497>MastronardeThanks for the rec. i have logos and a koine nt so I was looking for a grammar book.
>>25435144It's not so much a question of being ready to learn Greek as much as ready to devote study time to Greek at the expense of your Latin study time.
>Because the aorist was not maintained in either Latin or the Germanic languages, there have long been difficulties in translating the Greek New Testament into Western languages.oh no no no no...hellenoids??? aren't we the cradle of the VVest???
>>25436296wdym don't we all have the aorta vein in our necks?
>>25435748as far as grammar textbooks, the only references I have are Mastronarde and Hansen and Quinn. Mastronarde is good if you want really meticulously detailed grammar explanations and chapters that all provide different grammar concepts in small to medium bites. and Hansen and Quinn (as is suggested in the title) is 'intensive' in that its grammar concepts are packed together and 'told straight' -- 'this does that, it's written this way, now here's an example'. Mastronarde I would say progresses in difficulty, whereas H&Q is difficult from the beginning, which for some people is also good because the difficulty level remains steady. I think Mastronarde is for 'understanding' and H&Q for 'memorising'.maybe some other anon might give their tuppence on a different textbook as well
>>25436420Huh I just kind of want a quick to the point primer/reference so maybe that’s better for my approach.
why do Latin and Greek feel so magical
>>25436420Began using H&Q, and so far the difficulty is consistent, but rewarding as I change to lighter reading. An older Anon said the advantage with it is that later on, you won't struggle so much but recommended supplementing it with Athenaze or other texts because it does come across as rather 'dry'. >H&Q for 'memorisingI would say so. There are exercises but its not alot. Haven't heard of Mastronarde, looks good.
>>25436595>There are exercises but its not alot.Good, it’s kind of just an auxiliary for my reading.
>>25436511inflections are a hell of a drug
any recent complete reference materials for the classical pronunciation?
>>25436770https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12eznHN9Duo-2UI4wEQHmVVapXP7fIQqBHk5JzlzvwEM/https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fv46XgPPJy-ky9FUSApiemOVmtc8i6q7ZL5XkqtmMWA/
Anyone have the Iliad and Odyssey rendered into untranslated prose?
>>25436803I sure hope not that'd be six gorillion years in the deepest corners of Tartarus, can't prosify Homer man
>>25436835Guess I'll have to make it myself.
>>25436511Modern langs teach you to talk about the weather and Latin/Greek force you to look into your own soul.
could we get this added to the reentry?
>>25437589while I appreciate the effort and style I wasn't sure it fits with the FAQ's theme which is language learning resources, maybe I'll add it as a little extraI think I'll have to change hosting site anyway imgbox is still down
>>25437677addedalso changed hosting to postimg, that was clunky as well, for some reason it kept downsizing the uploaded images randomly, weird
Black market items aside, and speaking of only the official archaeological findings from China, how many of them are fake? I'm interested in some rigid research on this subject.
gem's uphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4IDx2z0e4
What Loebs did you all buy in the summer sale?
It's amazing how I can feel this book working. I'm the guy who mentioned a while ago that he was spending two weeks on one chapter to make sure I got it. I just finished Chapter 8 tonight. I really focused on this one because it introduces pronouns. By the time I finished the last Pensvm tonight I really did feel like I could read the sentences and understand them.It's funny. I'm not going out of my way to do rote memorization of vocabulary or rules. But I can feel my reading comprehension of Latin increasing, just from knuckling down and making sure I read and reread the chapters and do the exercises.
>>25436511>>25436739morphology
>>25439351Vergil volume 1 and 2 and Metamorphoses 1 and 2. (all came with varying degrees of markings and tears on jackets and pages btw)
>>25439626Yeah it’s kind of insane how reading a lot just works with this book. A couple chapters are more difficult and have sticking points, but you’re doing great. Plus the pensa are great comprehension checks.
>>25439351I got this.>>25439747Did you order the books from the Harvard University Press website, or from somewhere else? I ordered two books, and they came well-packaged in pristine condition.
>>25439980I'm almost finished with the Moralized Ovid. It's comfy extensive reading.
>>25439351Pentateuch, New Testament, 1st volume of Virgil, and DBG>>25439626GMI
>>25439980Harvard university press website. The type of wear suggests it wasn’t due to transit but that they were sitting around for ages, not secured, constantly rubbing with other products
>>25439747>>25440090Same lmao>>25439351Caesar DBG, DBC, and the other minor war commentaries of his. Plus St. Augustine’s confessions books 1-8.
As a Westerner I feel like I should be studying Latin, but the painful truth is that Greek is simply much more valuable.
>>25440250I can say inane stuff too
>>25440250>>25440426As a best western, I feel I should be staffed by Greeks but I am staffed by Latins who will get your orders wrong.
>>25429914Learn to read Old English and Old High German at the same time to read the entire Medieval Germanic corpus
after I finish Familia Romana I will start extensively reading and doing Wheelock's, is this a good plan? the extensive reading is for vocabulary, while Wheelock's is to review grammarI think I will be able to finish Wheelock's this way in 4 months, probably less though and in the meantime get enough extensive reading in to start Roma Aeternawhat kind of sucks is that there isn't much material to listen to
>>25440585No it’s a horrible plan. Reading is famously a terrible way to expand your vocabulary and skill.
>>25440250in antiquity greek mogs most of what romans did sure, but as westerner willy-nilly latin has had a too prominent role to be left behind in the last thousands of years
>>25440585Coming from Familia Romana, you should probably know most of the grammar taught in Wheelocks. Keep in mind that you're not studying for an exam, and it's also not a video game where you need to 100% it to unlock the secret ending. If you understand a concept well, you don't need to spend as much time on that chapter, and you don't need to do all the exercises.
>>25441100I think reviewing grammar through a textbook like Wheelock's will still be useful for me, and it's true, I probably won't need to spend that much time on each chapter.I think I will also read 38 Latin Stories alongside each chapter for the sake of variety and probably try the Wheelock's reader alongside Roma Aeterna. I think my plan is solid enough though. After that I will start learning another language as I think I will be able to read Caesar and other authors and be able to maintain my Latin skills and slowly improve
>>25441193Did you try reading Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles yet? If so, what do you think of it.
>>25440250I’m switching to classical chagatai now out of spite
the subjunctive tense is the ablative of tenses
>>25436803There's Theodore Gaza's prose paraphrase of the Iliad into Attic Greekhttps://archive.org/details/ilias-iliad-gaza-paraphrase/Hom%C4%93rou_Ilias_meta_palaias_paraphrase%C5%8D_volumes_1_2/page/3/mode/2up
do you know what. seeing boethius in this thread has convinced me to take a shot at learning latin. i'll try with that lingua latina thing and hopefully come here again
>>25441874Oh nice. Thank you!
>>25441841Subjunctive is not a "tense." Subjunctive is a mood (or mode), which has multiple tenses.
>>25442125try reading good philosophy instead of some ancilla theologiae shit
Ubi situs quidam sunt ubi loqui Latine possum?
>>25442170nostine Porticum Publicam nostrum?
>>25442237Non
>>25442245https://porticuspublica.org/non est sane frequentissimus sed datur more fere quarti canalis colloqui
>>25442248Gratias, bona sita hic est!
>>25432111Does anything like this exist for Sanskrit?I've ordered Devavanipravesika, but Sanskrit language resources seem pretty scare.
>>25442132sentimental value. but tell me more about your dislike for him, i’m intrigued now
what are some FUN medieval latin books?
>>25442979Carmina burana
>>25442979I'm starting to explore more medieval texts too. I started reading this "Navigatio Sancti Brendani" yesterday (I'm about halfway through), about St. Brendan and some monks on a voyage to find an island, which is more or less described as the Garden of Eden. The genre kind of reminds me of the stories about King Arthur I used to read, except with more sailing and praying and less fighting and killing people.https://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost10/Brendanus/bre_navi.htmlI found an English translation too. (I personally found this helpful because the opening was a little confusing.)https://web.archive.org/web/20160207182202/http://markjberry.blogs.com/StBrendan.pdfAnother word of caution is that the parts in parentheses mark editorial corrections, where I suppose the transcriber made an educated guess about partsthat were unclear in the manuscript. They're not actually setting off parts of the text parenthetically.
I got a Kobo e-reader yesterday, and I'm wondering what the best way is to get Latin texts on it. I thought at least it would be nice to read HTML documents (like from thelatinlibrary.com) without having to stare at a computer screen. I know Project Gutenburg and Wikisource/Wikifons have links to download documents in epub format, and The Latin Library also has a page with some works in epub format. Any other good sources for Latin ebooks? Or if you make your own ebooks from HTML, do you have a process you think works well?
>>25444383I mean more popular books you could probably just find in modern "fancy" form on Hannah's archive et similia.If it were me maybe I'd try using Latex + a bunch of regexes to format the raw Latin text the way I like it
>>25444821This might be a stupid question, but did you have any "modern" editions in mind? For DIY ebooks (for an e-reader), I think Latex is probably the wrong tool. It's for making PDFs, right?
>>25445980if I just want the text pure and simple often I just search TeubnersI mean maybe Latex is indeed not optimal but it's basically the only tool/language I have experience with to make pdfs(back in uni) so having just the raw text with little formatting I'd probably give it a shot if I were trying to make my own documents, but you are probably right that there's better tools(if you specifically need epubs I don't know if compilers support it or not, though IIRC there's also tools that do PDFs to epubs)
>>25441841both sort of "pick up the slack" so to speak of inflections/moods that fell out of use, yeahthey do it for free
I got the Keller and Russell Learn to Read Greek book but I'm not sure how exactly to pace myself when reading it. I don't have a tutor and I'm not using it in a College or HS class, so all the talk at the beginning of the book about how to pace it in a classroom environment really doesn't apply to me.
Scrībere mē versūs censēs nōn posse Latīnē?Hexametrum scrīpsī, pentametrum atque vidēs.Cūr tempus terere hōc modo tū fortasse requīris?hōs hodiē faciō ut crās melius faciam!
>>25442170Rōmānē hīc garrīre | licet dum jānitor absit.Num nescīs quantum | dēmereat? Nihilum!
>>25448311>Cūr tempus terere hōc modo tū fortasse requīris?Where would you put the caesura(s) in this verse?>Cūr tempus terere hōc // modo tū fortasse requīris?(3rd foot)or>Cūr tempus // terere hōc modo tū //fortasse requīris?(2nd and 4th)
>>25448359qui ianitorem provocabat latine nugandi causa Suecium abesse credo, huiusce enim fletui accurrit nullimerito noster
why is Greco-Roman literature so kino? is it because of survivorship bias (the only works that scribes bothered to copy were the good ones), so we don't have any of the bad ones, unlike we do now?the Illiad mogs hard
Okay then.
>>25449230No because even works looked down on in their own time like the gesta francorum are absolute kino today.
Would it be stupid to learn a modern language if I care more about ancient languages? at this point i think im more interested in classical languages than in modern languages, but I dont know if its realistic or healthy to try to learn something like akkadian or sumerian with free online resources like youtube.It seems to me like you need books to learn classical languages, this is not true for modern languages. So I was thinking of learning a modern language even though dead languages are more interesting to me at the moment because I dont have an income source.Also, do sumerian and akkadian have enough literature to justify learning them? Latin and Greek obviously do, but what about ancient near eastern languages?I suppose all of you have a job, im unemployed and
>>25443145I was reading about this the other day. Golliard literature, is it aspiring priests who failed to become priests and they just lived a bohemian lifestyle kind of mocking the church?
>>25449532Most of the best books for classical languages are online for free, many of them are quite old. If your goal is to engage with literature, classical languages are great for that. If your goal is to watch anime or gossip on discord, classical languages are terrible for that. If it is your first foreign language of any kind I would recommend you do latin or greek since resources that are aimed at beginners and don’t assume a classroom are more abundant, while Akkadian is a much more rigorous scholarly-feeling effort to be able to make much progress. The greek script is easy and close enough to the latin that that won’t be a barrier for more than a few days, but otherwise consider sticking to langs with latin scripts since the added friction makes it harder to stick with as a beginner. I personally learned latin via physical books but only because I prefer physicals, every book that I eventually bought I had used in .pdf form at first.>>25449540Students AFAIK. Universities and all were at the time places of religious education primarily.
>>25449532unless paid for it learning languages that don't actively stimulate your interest is pretty grim, just pick what you see yourself happy engaging with if it's entirely a hobby
>>25449532modern languages might also give you more materials to learn other languages from
I finished Navigatio Sancti Brendani on Tuesday. I think Gesta Francorum is next.
>Ancient GreekThis is the only think you need to know by the way
>>25450865η and ει look backwards
>>25450300I’ll have to check that out. Have fun with the Gesta Francorum. It’s kino.
Ouch
I’m about 200/300 pages into Familia Romana. I was doing well until I picked up the pace, and it got away from me. Now I’m doing more googling than reading.
>>25452204I had a similar struggle in the last 1/3 of the book, and ultimately i just gritted my teeth and ground it out since i just wanted to be done, but it worked out fine, just meant i had to review a bit later on. Don't overthink it.
>>25452217Where did you go from there? I’m worried I’ll be lost reading Latin without as much context and a curated vocabulary. Not to mention my weak grammar. The Vulgate doesn’t look too bad though.
>>25450865>>25451498Because it's AI slop. Notice that there is no ου either.
>>25449532>It seems to me like you need books to learn classical languagesQuī scit ubī quaerat, thēsaurum semper habēbit.Pīrātīs grātīs optima merx dabitur.
>>25448719Forsitan exsiliō multāvit jānitor illum?Quōmodo egō poterō discere nunc trivium?
>>25449243>the two-hand-trembling swelling-breast-kneading cowgirl got stuck in the throbbing-cock-stalion milking machine...
>>25452249After FR, regularly reviewing grammar while reading a lot.
Reading the Bible right now (I'm at Genesis 20), and it feels like going through a schizo's ramblings. Every other page I stumble upon something illogical or out of place, and have to refer to the internet to make sense of it.Just to illustrate my point, suddenly in Genesis 4:17 there comes up Cain's wife when previously there were only 4 people mentioned (Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel). The smarter than me people on the internet say that the Hebrew word ha-adam used throughout Genesis can refer either to 'man' as a collective noun (mankind) or an individual person, meaning that in Gen 1:17 God created the Man as a species, both males and females. Yet in Gen 3 through Gen 5 ha-adam is talked within the context of a specific person, Adam, whose wife ate the fruit of knowledge, who was expelled, who had a specific genealogy etc. How the same Hebrew word can simultaneously refer to the mankind as a whole and a particular member of mankind simultaneously just depending on the context?
>>25453078Other people objectively existed in Genesis in “the Land of Nod.” Hence why Abel moved there and within a couple generations an entire city was built. I am not a Bible literalist but this is just a coherent storyline
>>25453078Adam (Adamah- soil) is first man created in garden of Eden (within God’s realm) while those in Nod already existed without God. That is the spiritual meaning of this part. Genesis also has a major anti-technology bent to it. The fruit of knowledge is wrong and the first thing the people of Nod do is to create a city which is evil compared to the idyllic lives of Adam and Eve.
>>25453097>>25453097>Hence why Abel moved there and within a couple generations an entire city was built.You haven't even read the Bible. That's Cain who moves here after murdering Abel in Gen 4:16, you absolute philistine. >>25453105>while those in Nod already The land of Nod literally comes up first in Gen 4:16, and then in Gen 4:17 Cain settles there and conjures a wife.>existed without GodGod literally created everything. There can't be creation without him.
>>25453110I meant they existed in a state of not being in Gods grace while those in Eden were the divine ones. Sorry for confusion
>>25453078Are you reading it in a classical language or just Russian?
>>25453145>I meant they existed in a state of not being in Gods grace while those in Eden were the divine ones. Sorry for confusionDoesn't make any sense. So, God breathed life into ha-adam, settled ha-adam in Eden, made a wife for ha-adam, the wife made ha-adam eat the apple. At which point in the scripture ha-adam refers to the mankind, and where to man called Adam? >>25453167Russian, and using Hebrew interlineal for reference to difficult parts (I don't speak Hebrew, the only Semitic language I somewhat speak is Arabic).
starting chapter 33 today (Familia Romana)>>25453078I also found Genesis pretty weird, because there were all kinds of weird demons (?) that I haven't heard of before, humans that weren't related to Adam and Eve, overall the content is a bit more mystical to me than I though it would've been
>>25453178What is likely, is that Hebrews just incorporated elements of older myths, particularly, Mesopotamian myth of creation where Enki created the man from dirt, and slapped onto their own mythos which led to an incoherent mess.
>>25453188Every mythological tradition is an incoherent mess
I finished Roma Aeterna 40, but I'll pause the book for now and just reread stuff for a few weeks before going any further. I rely a lot on chat gpt to parse the poetry bits and it's frustrating me.
Is there any way to buy physical copies of Greek texts in the original that contain the entire text and aren't dual language and/or print on demand trashEvery edition I've found for anything is either small sections of a larger work or dual language or an edition that's POD from some jeet company that still costs 60 bucks for some reason
>>25453228Oxford Classical Texts, Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics, Bibliotheca Teubnerianathey are also the latest critical editions, but also are rather expensive
>>25453078The bible exists within a tradition and trying to understand it outside of the tradition, things just wont make senseAnd Im not talking about le time and place context. You need to read the texts of the tradition surrounding genisis. Enoch, Cave of Treasures, early church fathers, commentaries from the alexandiran jews etc. Id highly recomend watching the Universal History videos on the Symbolic World youtube channel, it will immenisly aid your understanding of Genisis. (At least the way traditional Chirstianity understands it if you care for such things)>>25427433>>25432184>>25432192There are actually perfect examples of this that survive in modern Persian. Take a simple sentance like, That is green. Inkeh Sabz Ast becomes Inkeh sabzeh. Ast, the verb to be, straight cognate to latin, is dropped completely for an short e sound. Youd porbably drop keh as well depending on whos talking. People are just lazy and dont like enunciating every little letter. We do it in english all the time dropping things, the french do it, everyone does it and yet academics just cant imagine that the great Romans would ever do such a thing. Really boggles the mind that there is any debate about it at all
>>25453300maybe it's more interesting in Latin due to the nature of -um, it you don't conceive it as a nasal vowel sound then it's reasonable to think -um and est shouldn't contractthough it's actually more interesting perhaps, and I should've mentioned it I guess, that in Plautus you also have contraction in -ust from -us and est
>>25453178The Book of Tobit also has Arabian nights “ifrit” style demons in it that enchant a woman so that any man that beds her dies. This is overcome by a ritual with a dead fish iirc. Basically all the real folklore-y books that go along with Genesis were excised from the Protestant canon.
>>25453228you could try any of these, theyre usually really old and expensive but if youre complaint that the book looks ugly these are great, these are compilations texts by the way>Graeca Minora>Graeca Majora>Chrestomathia Graeca>Anthologia Graeca>Anthologia Palatina>Poetae Graeci>Oratores Attici>Historici Graeci>Philosophi Graeci>Tragici Graeci>Comici Graeci>Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum>Poetae Melici Graeci>Corpus Aristotelicum>Corpus Platonicum>Corpus Inscriptionum Graecarum
>>25453236The OCTs and Teubners were what I was thinking about but apparently unless you're only buying the newest ones they're both using a POD service now. I guess the only option is buying the older ones used? The green and yellows are nice but mostly not complete texts and they have the same issue with POD from what I understand.
How do I move past basic text reading on Greek? I have been reading Xenophon and it's been going great but I know he is easy to read. When I stumble on something harder I drop my spaghetti.
>>25453454what are some fun apocryphal or not canon books of the Bible?
>>25453507Make sure youre studying
>>25453513Tobit which I mentioned is my favorite. It’s basically an Arabian Nights story that got mixed up in a book or Hebraic laws.
>>25453507there's no going past the intermediate plateau through any other way other than reading more
>>25453513Have you looked at the Catholic deuterocanonical books or those of the Eastern churches? The early church, aside from gnostic texts, also has books that were looked favorably upon, like the Protoevangelium of James or the Shepard of Hermas, but which were not considered canon.
>>25453513>>25453300
>>25452439>Because it's AI slop.And yet, it was posted online in 2016. Curious.
>>25453513There’s some pre Christian accounts of the lives of adam and eve that are pretty neat. Include explicit statements of concepts like resurrection and the Word, supposed to have been popular in the region around the time Christ came.>>25453546For most Christians, Tobit is canon.
>>25453548the blackest of pills…
>>25453771NGMI with that attitude. Enjoy the journey instead of yearning for the end.
>>25453821thanks mr. platitude
>>25453771Why would you pick up a language if not to read as much of it as possible
>>25453912it was a shitpost, it’s not that deep
ni scriob - & rv bibo quum pro cm, liquet pro licet, tue pro tuae. qumdo isentir pos
>>25453718>2016If that is true (IF) ,the person who made that is retarded.
>>25454093>bibo cumhehe'tue' is something that you will certainly see if you read old enough editions or editions that preserve the medieval or early modern orthography. and that's, kids, how æ and œ were born
>>25453718>being this autistic about pronunciation in a language with no standard pronunciation and where the most popular pronunciation for crnturies was created arbitrarily by a dutchmanSome people hate fun and will do anything other than read.
>>25453078You have to keep in mind that Genesis (and the other first books of the Bible) was not written by one author. It's a collage of different books, which sometimes tell you the same story with different details, which leads to a lot of contradiction.Up to the point you are reading, you probably already noted the first big "contradiction": there are two creation myths. In the first one, god is called Elohim. He creates with his voice, he creates the world in seven days, he created mankind as a whole, and then blessed humanity.In the second one, god is called Yahweh. He creates using his hands. He creates everything in one day. First creates one man, then one woman. In the end he damned them and expelled them from paradise.These two stories come from different books and were then pasted together in Genesis. You'll find a lot of cases like that
>>25455434The Christian view is that the Eden story running till the end of Genesis 2 fits within the Genesis 1-2:2 creation story. I think a part of the problem is how you define contradiction, and there's a lot of semantics played around that. Like, is using a hebrew regnal plural of respect name (Christians believe this signals the Trinity) really contradictory with using a singular title a few verses later? Parts of scripture where the author are known use several interchangeable titles for God, sometimes in the same verse.
>tfw you'll never have bros like this
>>25455720Besides all the starvation, the 1st Crusade is a pretty awesome adventure.
>>25453300>And Im not talking about le time and place context. You need to read the texts of the tradition surrounding genisis. Enoch, Cave of Treasures, early church fathers, commentaries from the alexandiran jews etc. Id highly recomend watching the Universal History videos on the Symbolic World youtube channel, it will immenisly aid your understanding of Genisis. (At least the way traditional Chirstianity understands it if you care for such things)>just trust the expertslelpleb detected
the Seikiklos epitaph is beautifulare there any GOOD recordings of Catullus' poems in the restored classical pronunciation?
>>25455434Who says these things are a contradiction? The post modern disection of texts into infinte analysis leads you further away from the truth than closer. These stories dont exist in vacuums so why are you reading them in one
>>25455743Yes if you want to understand the liturgical text of a religion maybe you should read the wiritings of the early church fathers whose liturgy is used word for word 1600 years later. Or learn from people whose day job it is to teach what those people wrote Astonishing ego that you think you can understand biblical texts outside of the tradition its written in
>>25455997they have nothing to do with the Jews that lived in 700 BC or something that actually wrote down that shit, I don't need or care for their reinterpretations and attempts to root out contradictions in the attempt to develop a sophisticated theological system for their practical religious affairs
>>25456034Goy
>>25456034That sophisticated theological system is the one upon which the last two thousand years of history rests. Im not telling you to believe in it. The christian understanding of genesis, of the old testament, is the understanding that informs all of literature after Christ. Otherwise whats really the point in reading it? Every piece of literature written since then that may reference the old testament is understanding it through this lense
>>25456049the world doesn't revolve around theological ramblings, theological ramblings revolve around practical concerns of the aristocracy and clergy
>>25456048Shut the fuck up needle dick
>>25456069quare fremuerunt gentes? [why do the goyim rage]
Anon should either be indeclinable or a 3rd declension name
>>25456880‘trannus’ should be a 2nd declension masculine noun
>>25456880Anōn Anōnis or Anōnymus -ibut Nēmō would be better /imho/>>25457023Are you the infamous Swede? Someone wrote about you. Did you read it? What do you think?
>>25457055The issue with anonymus is that it’s just anonymous, but when we call each other anon, while that’s technically short for anonymous, it is really its own distinct word. Plus anones and anonibus just sound funny.AnonAnonisAnoniAnonemAnoneAnonesAnonumAnonibusAnonesAnonibus
>>25457070or treat it as completely irregual/random and use arcaic endings>acc. anōnim anōnīs >abl. anōnud anōnubus>gen. anōnās anōnāsum>voc. anōne
>>25457122That would be retarded for a neologism though
>>25457205>implying anon isn't retardedanon...
>SEI QVES ESENT>Senatus consultum de BaccanalibusOld Latin had a proper plural for quis. Isn't that cool.With modern orthography:>sī quēs essent
>>25457219Fair
>>25457023No need. If we needed to convey that meaning, we can just refer to the poster of post number 25456880!
>>25457222More trivia about quis>Maurus Servius Honoratus, In Vergilii Aeneidos Libros 1.95.1>"qvis" et quis et quibus significat: secundum artem enim 1.95.1sic dicimus. ab eo enim quod est 'a qui' in 'bus' mittit, ab eo quod est 'a quo' in 'is' mittit, sed a tertia declinatione in usu sunt dativus et ablativus plurales, licet antiqui omnibus usi sint casibus. denique Cato in originibus ait "si ques sunt populi". et decli- 5navit 'ques quium', ut 'puppes puppium'.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXZt4-LTtHw
>>25457290Oh is this that gargantuan vergil commentary made by that late roman author? Does anyone know where I can find it online?
It’s funny to me that perhaps Virgil himself might not have known that the Po valley would probably have been Etruscan at the time, like that Claudius was the only person nerdy enough to bother to study their history in detail.
'ate 'ruscans simpel AS
>>25457464https://latin.packhum.org/author/2349Check also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servius_the_Grammarian it has links to the critical edition of his complete works>Servii grammatici qui feruntur in Vergilii carmina commentarii, Georius Thilo, Hermannus Hagen
Why does Catullus use et as a long and a short beat here?
>>25457503Isn't it possible that the arrival of Aeneas (after the fall of Troy) predated the Etruscan expasion by a few centuries, mythologically speaking? The Villanova culture (earliest phase Etruscans) is dated after 900 BC, and according to Erastothenes the fall of Troy happened in 1183 BC.(I should actually check those dates, since I pulled them from wikipedia)
>>25457649I was under the impression the estruscans expanded from the Po into tuscany, and that that was their original heartland, nisi fallor. id probabiliter sit ut dixisti.
>>25457643et-vī-net-sa-le-tom-ni-bus-ca-chin-nis– – – u u – u – u – –
I'm going to finish Familia Romana in about a week, provided nothing distracts me (only chapters 34 and 35 are left). I regret not doing the exercises desu, I did do a few of them (up to chapter 12), but I got lazy. As a result I don't recognise verb tenses that well and I rely on context really. I don't want to go back and do them, since I will anyways do all of Wheelock's exercises since I'll be studying from it now to review grammar pretty much. I also took a look at Roma Aeterna and it didn't seem that bad, but I will just read Orberg's readers + Ad Alpes + Fabulae Syrae + a couple of Steadman's readers while studying from Wheelock's to learn more words before Roma Aeterna
>>25457643>"imagine the smell" the poemCatullus is inviting his friend to1. have a (probably bisexual, meros amores) threesome with his mistress2. simply have sex with his mistresswhich would mean that2.1. Lesbia is a whore and Catullus some sort of pimp2.2. Catullus is a cuckAlso the unguentum and the totum te faciant nasum could be perfectly translated as "imagine the smell">Fabulle, here's the whore of my girlfriend, imagine the smellThe only open question is, does Fabullus want to smell some part in particular?
>>25457750>whore of my girlfriendmy whorish girlfriend, I mean
>>25457655the -le- is dropped, the -et- remains no? so since it should be pronouced l'et, shouldn't et retain it's full meter?
>>25457603That’s very helpful thanks.
>>25457818the first et is left untouched in front of v, finishes in consonant so it's long, the second et contracts with the previous -nō into net(long) while the third gets split, the front contracting with preceding -le gives a short le, the final t joins om- into tom(long), I don't see how to read the phalaecian differently
>>25457831So, in terms of a rule, for me, a student, the length of et is not by default long but instead depends on the letter before it? Consonant = long; long vowel = long; short vowel = short? What if et is the beginning of a line, would it be effected by the end of the previous line?
>>25457842I see where you are coming at, taken in isolation it's long, but within a sentence or better a verse what makes the meter come through isn't so much what you read so to speak i.e the single words separated by spaces but the sequence of syllables and these don't care about spaces, and can emerge from things like elision which in turn as in this example can split individual wordsso don't get confused by the length of et as a spoken individual syllable and an "et" written in the text because the latter may create something else in terms of syllables depending on what precedes and followsrather than imagining a scheme for every possible combo, think about rather what can happen, vowels like to contract when they are close to each other, so since et starts with a vowel, pay attention if there's a preceding vowel; but since it starts with a vowel, if it's preceded by a consonant maybe you could form a new short syllable by taking the preceding consonant and adding the e, and so on, take for example this line from the beginning of the Aeneid> lītora, multum ille et terrīs iactātus et altōtwo et, constrained by the dactylic hexameter, what can they do? ille et, e against e, think about a potential contraction(indeed it is, mul-til-let); iactātus et altō, mmmh both preceded by a consonant but also followed by one, potential for splitting, and indeed you get iac-tā-tu-se-tal-tōso basically try to separate et as a single word and the breaking down into syllables of the actual verse which most definitely can break down individual words and join pieces together
>>25457863>but also followed by one*but also followed by a vowel
forgot to mention that Latin also has those nasal sounds which can do something similar, Virgil has plenty of lines with 'et' torn into different syllables to practice>et genus invīsum, et raptī Ganymēdis honōrēsfirst et gets away, second et contracts with -sum into set because sum = sũ>ūnius ob noxam et furiās Āiācis Oīleī?noxam = noc-sã hence noc-set-fu-ri-ās.....
>>25457842for hard rules to commit to memory, read this, especially 398-404. examples are dactylic hexameter but will help nonetheless and it has the line >>25457863 mentioned
>>25457962I see, thanks a lot for the effort posts. This has clarified some things I didn't quite grasp about elision and is really helpful.What book is your screenshot from btw?
>>25458032Caesar's De bello gallico
>>25458032Pharr’s Aeneid, in the grammar appendix. you can find it on archive.org
>>25457750>the whore of my girlfriend*my whore of a girlfriend*
I love Orberg's marginal notes like explaining 10 times that litterae = epistula
>>25458089thanks fren>tfw I'll always be an ESL
>>25458538Never happened.
en! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsXQyv4rDw8audistisne socii? nisi quid maioris sit momenti ut tergo instruatur, sententia claudatur VERBO
>>25459050>youtube slop
>>25459050are there any other Latin speakers who are as good as him? I haven't really seen that many actually being good at speaking Latinwhat's his secret?
>>25459050Ego iam me teneo multum malum. Non possum ponere illum verbum ad finem de meis sentiis. Est nimis difficile facere istud.
>>25459608>what's his secret?no native speakers
>>25459608>knew italian fluently first (so he puts actual effort into prosody instead of talking like a retard)>decades of effort actually speaking, going to conventions, keeping active relationships with other latin speakers>memorizing poetryIt's as simple as that really.
I hate how low quality the printed LLPSI volumes look. I thought it was a problem with my edition, but no. The PDFs are also extremely big (233 MiB???) for a book.
>>25459980This is what I'm talking about (forgot to attach the image)
>>25459980My copies of the main books (Familia Romana and Roma Aeterna) look good enough to my eyes, but, then again, I'm not looking at it under a microscope like you are. I remember my copy of Sermones Romani being especially bad though with marks from scanning an original I guess.Of the digital scans I have, the largest PDFs I have are only ~50 MB, and most are smaller than that.
>>25459608I'm not very familiar with that scene, but I like the way Alexius Cosanus talks.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KoiQ-oG85cInterestingly, he's Italian. I wonder if there's a pattern?
For the Greekfags in the audience who are Christian and/or have read the NT, what’s your take on the exegesis of the Olivet Discourse - in particular, the relevant Mark and Matthew chapters - and the sense in which it’s meant that no one knows the hour except the Father? I’ve been considering the interpretation that Augustine, among others, makes, that Jesus is talking about declarative knowledge as opposed to cognitive knowledge, but I find that interpretation quite strained.Firstly, leaving aside these passages in question, out of all the Greek I’ve read from different periods, and different lexica I’ve consulted, I’ve never seen a single instance of οἶδα being used in a causative sense. Now, of course people can use words uniquely, and general usage doesn’t preclude the potential for liberal usage of language, but that fact alone would seem to point away from the declarative reading; and when you look at the rest of the Bible and its language I think the case against it becomes even stronger. Namely, when we look at how the idea of causing someone to know something is treated elsewhere in the NT and the OT.For instance, in 1 Cor 15 Paul says:>Γνωρίζω δὲ ὑμῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ὃ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν…“I make known to you, brothers, the Gospel which I have evangelized to you…”He used γνωρίζω. According to STEP Bible, γνωρίζω is used 24 times in the NT, and 63 in the OT. one interesting example from Ezra 7:25:>καὶ σύ, Εσδρα, ὡς ἡ σοφία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν χειρί σου, κατάστησον γραμματεῖς καὶ κριτάς, ἵνα ὦσιν κρίνοντες παντὶ τῷ λαῷ τῷ ἐν πέρα τοῦ ποταμοῦ, πᾶσιν τοῖς εἰδόσιν νόμον τοῦ θεοῦ σου καὶ τῷ μὴ εἰδότι γνωριεῖτε.“And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God that is in your hand, appoint magistrates and judges who may judge all the people in the province Beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God. And those who do not know them, you shall make known.”Γνωρίζω is explicitly being contrasted with οἶδα in the verse (μὴ εἰδότι).So it seems like, under this declarative knowledge exegesis, you’d have to make some sort of special pleading for why Mark and Matthew used a word that’s (virtually) never used in a causative sense when they also have other words readily available that they would’ve known about and were regularly used even in the OT to deal with Hebrew and Aramaic verb meaning ‘to make known’ or ‘declare’.
>>25460219I also just don’t think it makes much sense contextually. The disciples start out the Discourse by asking Jesus about the end times, when it will be, and what the sign or indication (σημεῖον) will be that it is upon them: they’re asking epistemic/cognitive questions. Then in different ways Jesus goes on to talk about knowing this, knowing that, and eventually says that only the Father knows the hour, and that the disciples do not know the hour. So either Jesus is consistently talking about declarative knowledge, and is making non-sequiturs to the disciples’ questions, or he’s equivocating and using different verbs to talk about “knowledge” (he uses γινώσκω in the passages as well) but there’s no marked distinction - which seems rhetorically sloppy, no?>hey Jesus, when are the end times? How can we tell?>no one’s going to declare it except the father.>alright, not what I asked but…It also just wouldn’t make sense with the list of events/conditions he mentions immediately following their questions (wars, famines, earthquakes); he’s talking about signs they can recognize as indicating the end times.Maybe there’s something I’m missing, but I don’t see how people can really defend this take. I see popular apologists use it, and it makes me cringe every time.
>>25460223Idk you haven’t really said anything about why this matters at all so I don’t care enough to have an opinion about it.
>>25460244don't care that you don't care
>>25460249Don’t care that you don’t care that I don’t care.
>>25460219I mean if one has to indeed interpret that as declarative, grammatically I think they don't have any ammunition at all so to speak, you're right imho, purely grammatically speaking it's "know", even the Latin uses scire which likewise is entirely non causative.They can maybe get there theologically speaking, after all it's kinda weird Jesus who in mainstream christianity is one thing with the father and should know it all would want to imply he doesn't actually know, maybe it's a roundabout way to say that it's not time to tell them.>Chrysostomus in Matth: Cum dixisset dominus omnia quae praecedunt Christi adventum, et ad ipsas ianuas narrationem duxisset, diem tacere voluit; unde dicit de die autem illa et hora nemo scit, neque Angeli caelorum, nisi solus pater.
>>25460785nobody cares about your christcuckery
>>25460785>after all it's kinda weird Jesus who in mainstream christianity is one thing with the father and should know it all would want to imply he doesn't actually knowwell the crux of the issue - certainly part of it - is what the authors' particular Christology was. to my mind the more straightforward reading is that they simply didn't have the same general concept of Jesus as most Christians do now; that he was divine, sure, and had particular knowledge and abilities distinct from other prophets, but that it was authorized through the Father. i.e., they thought Jesus really didn't know the hour because of his divine limitation, not him "humbling himself" or whatever sort of other apologetic you're likely to find.
>>25461327yeah I mean it's why I felt like adding 'mainstream' was important, because I guess e.g an Arian christian here could easily point and say "see, father != son because the son doesn't know certain things the father does"; in fact I realized after sending the post that Mark also adds "οὐδὲ ὁ ὑιός|neque Filius" compared to Matthew simpler statement
chapter 34 of LLPSI is pretty difficult, the poetry is hard to understand, is chapter 35 easy? it looks easy
>>25461949compared to cap 34 yes
It's very frustrating that economics encourages new redundant readers to constantly be made but never for voluminous commentaries in easy latin of poetry to be republished
>>25461957is my reading list after FR good enough to transition to RA?>Fabulae faciles>Fabulae ab urbe condita>Ad Alpes>Epitome Historiae Sacrae>Amphitryo>De Bello Gallico (Orberg's edition)>Sermones Romani
>>25461970Idk seems good enough.
>>25459608any of those videos from the Academia Vivarium Novum guys have pretty goat Latin skill
>>25462399>>25462399
>>25461970Not in that order though. Ad Alpes for example is much harder than Sermones Romani. I'd also start with Fabulae Syrae if you haven't read them yet.
