A lot of late-european philosophy stops being very interesting and mysterious once you take the time to ask a very mundane question: What state of affairs does this person prefer? Here, elaborate metaphysics, theories of history, liberation, authenticity, flourishing, emancipation, reconciliation and so forth terminate in something very mundane and animalistic: people should be less miserable, less frustrated, less vonstrained, more fulfilled, more capable of gratifying their desires, less pain, nore pleasure. Different philosophers may disagree about superficial things, construct alien-seeming systems which nevertheless have a very recognizable end which one can even see in domesticated animals.Some, like Nietzsche, go the other way and affirm pain and suffering, but they eitger do not last long or suffer the same fate as David Lindsay's green corpuscles: all their striving and ideas get reinterpreted, repurposed to serve pleasure.
Dude, yeah, pretty much. You can build this giant philosophical death-star out of metaphysics and historical necessity and whatever, and then you kinda scrape off the paint and it’s just like, “yeah, I’d prefer people not to be miserable, I guess.”Like bro, you wrote 600 pages to arrive at “being fucked sucks and feeling good is preferable.” Nietzsche’s the funny exception because he’s like “actually suffering rules,” but then somehow even that gets turned into a new flavor of self-actualization or whatever. The human brain really cannot resist making a philosophy out of wanting a nice afternoon.
>>25473212Suffering is just another means of attaining a desirable outcome (pleasure)
>>25473212Yes, there's something fishy going on here. All of these people are worthless weaklings who seem to turn their weakness and all the flaws that it entails into the purpose of life itself. They are certainly no stoics or any otger school that considered transformation and transcendence to be more pertinent.
>>25473207anyone who denigrates pleasure and desire is lower than slime to me. and it's particularly evil given that right now the boss class are explicitly trying to create a labour force without the capacity to know desire.desire is probably of the same stuff - the same substance - in me as it is in a household pet, but if i take one microsecond to examine my experience of desire it's instantly clear that what's important is not the stuff desire's made of but the specific forms and combinations it takes on.
>>25473296You are lower than slime.
questioning the value of pleasure is insane to me. surely it has to be the starting point, is has to be what everything else is 'in the name of'. the question is how pleasure gets produced, how mysterious its sources are, how diverse its specific forms, how it works differently for different people, how they resolve those differences. but to question the value of pleasure itself is almost like advocating suicide, to my mind it's just as nihilistic. maybe the problem is that this is 4chan, so when people think of pleasure they only think of like, snacks and porn. but this is also a literature board so you'd hope people would have some better examples to hand.
>>25473296You hate these illusory boss men because they desire things like you and feel more pleasure than you, which you also desire. In short, you hate what you want to become. That's pretty slimy.
>>25473312>questioning the value of desire is insane to me because... uh... it just, ah man, it just has to be, bro!It's pretty easy though. Pleasure is useless and self-justifying. It creates dull and complacent minds. Pain, however, jolts you out of complacency and makes you start to utter sentences that end in question marks.
the study of LIFE has the answers to LIFE
>>25473296>the boss class are explicitly trying to create a labour force without the capacity to know desire.Yes, they are indeed trying to make everything fully-automated so that we can all live like the fat lards of the Axiom.
>>25473296>he believes desire is a substanceVirtually everyone in Europe who was anybody defined it as a lack. I mean, what else is it supposed to be? Something you already have by virtue of your being? A force, like the buddhists seem to say? You know what they also have to say about that force?
>>25473326ok, we're both slime, we're all in the slime pit here. fine.but i wouldn't want to have been a bossman even if i had the talent, because getting to the top requires moulding your desires to fit those of the capital accumulation algorithm. you have to pretend that the latest source of investment returns just so happens to be what stirs those obscure regions of your soul and reminds you what the universe is capable of. mr beast got where he was not because of the depth and subtley of his desires but because he has no desires except to increase his subscriber count. elon musk is completely analogous, an empty vessel for market forces.plus the pleasures i desire wouldn't even be available to me if i were a wealthy entrepreneur, because they require collective forms of life and creativity that our we no longer (or don't yet) know how to produce. i don't desire commodities, i desire forms of life and experimentation in forms of life.
>>25473312>maybe the problem is that this is 4chan, so when people think of pleasure they only think of like, snacks and porn.Well, you already said that questioning the value of pleasure itself is insane. Why make distinctions now? Surely, questioning those things is essentially insane too, to you.
>>25473365Oh ok, so you think these people have all forced themselves to actually just love the game itself. They do not desire money because of what they can get with it, but they desire money for its own sake. You are not a serious person. You are just a mindless hedonist who eants to live in an effortlessly totalitarian state where everyone just does exactly what you want them to do. Thankfully, you will suffer but I doubt you will ever learn anything from it. You'd need some kind of soul for that and leftists have none. Their end-goal is to turn humanity into pleasure-slime for the novelty alone of being a pleasure-slime.
>>25473365Man, you have no theory of mind. But you are likely very autistic and therefore delusional, so I guess it's understandable.
>>25473327>Pleasure is useless and self-justifying. It creates dull and complacent minds. as i said, this is a literature board. can you really not think of a time when pleasure has jolted you out of complacency? pain tells you more about your own affected body and its limits than it does about the affecting body and its potentials. but pleasure is a sign that your bodies are starting to interact, it's as if an inhabited zone of possibility is unrolling before you. adorno compares metaphysical experience to the moment you leave a dark prison and feel the breeze on your face, and i think the image works so well because real pleasure always carries that sense of contact, possibility, openness. >>25473359a force is a good way of putting it. i was speaking loosely when i said substance. i don't know anything about buddhism, but if they don't agree with a substantial self i'm on board with that. i think a self is more like a whirlwind of forces, tangled up in the infinite ocean of forces that is the universe.
>>25473387I don't agree with that. You may call it openess or possibility (for what, more pleasure?) But it is ultimately just an animalistic craving that is not essentially different from a sadist deriving pleasure from torturing your, for instance. And yeah, I cannot recall any point where pleasure jolted me out of complacency. It seems to just make you more complacent. Not sure why you think this being a literature board is a point in your favor. The real metaphysical aspect of pleasure is perhaps most likely that it does make you complacent. It draws you into the world, making you feel comfortable. God is in his heaven and He loves you, probably sexually and for his own pleasure. Pain, however, makes you less complacent. It opens your eyes up to a clearer view of the world, and you see that it is thoroughly sordid and not worth worshipping. David Lindsay describes pain as the light of muspel piercing the world and calling for your soul. It is painful precisely because the world does not want you to seek it. It wants you to stay in safe and comforting delusion, fooling you into thinking that pain is actually a stopsign. Don't go any further! Stay in Eden forever. But pain ignites wanderlust, rejection, critical thinking, and it is the source of meaning.
>>25473387>i think a self is more like a whirlwind of forces, tangled up in the infinite ocean of forces that is the universe.I suppose they agree. They even name these forces. However, they believe that most desires, exceot those that aim at the cessation of desire, are delusional and trap you in the karmic cycle of ever-hustling samsara
>>25473296>the boss class are explicitly trying to create a labour force without the capacity to know desire.The proletarians are the primary consumers of today. If they had no desire, then no money. You are retarded and need to read other authors like Sklar or Kondylis.
>>25473296Nigga pussy dustin hoffman
I like when my dick feels good.
>>25473443based
>>25473443As do Bonobos, I hear. Perhaps you'd like to join them?
