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τοῖς Ἑλληνίζουσιν

I had a jueju come to me a while ago while camping with some friends, would anyone like to see it?

>>25547990
Sure

I think epistolography will be my next area of interest.

>>25547990
>>25548001
某城跨會營某村望池 (place names censored for anonymity)
營地斜陽暖
我旗映彩雲
逍遙同志語
亂世絕新聞

διὰ τί ὁ τῶν Ἀμηρικανῶν βασιλεὺς, αἰσχρός τε καὶ παχὺς ὤν, καλλὴν γυναῖκα ἔχει;

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Fluency 100 words at a time

You fool, Latinists don’t actually read or discuss the literature they just argue about how to best learn to parse the literature for the sole purpose of arguing about how to learn to parse the literature.

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>>25548216
τὸ θρυλούμενον, ὡς ἔοικεν, φίλε, τῶν ἐπίκλοπον ἦθος ἐχουσῶν ἔχει σποράν, ὁτῳοῦν γὰρ ἄν ὑπάρχῃ πλοῦτος ἔσονται τὸ δέμας εἴκελαι ἀθανατῄσιν

>>25548385
copiam facio fortunae numerorum mihi eligendorum

>>25548757
>De cultu feminarum
«truly» nihil sub sole novi
>Enimuero, qui utique interdum cogitabant unde cecidissent et, post libidinum uaporata momenta, caelum suspirabant, illud ipsum bonum feminaram naturalis decoris ut causam mali sic remunerauerunt, ne eis profuisset felicitas sua, sed ut deuectae de simplicitate et sinceritate, una cum ipsis in offensam Dei peruenirent
dat post nut clarity

How do you commit poetry to memory bros?

My method is to read a sentence aloud 7x, write it down on a piece of paper, recite each individual line 7x without looking at the paper, then the whole sentence 7x, then the whole selection if it’s multiple sentences.

I've been reading and doing anki for a while (dropped Latin though, since most latinfags are so lowbrow -as this thread proves- they look like troglodytes, which, ironically enough, makes way more difficult to find knowledgeable people to ask questions to and get proper answers -which I think it's very important and very useful for a beginner- even if there are a fuck ton of them; I will probably come back to it once I've learnt enough of my current TL, good ol' Greek) and I can say that mining words, even with some context, is pretty much useless, i. e. not better than looking them up in a dictionary a few times -which takes no more than a few seconds- so I'm mining entire sentences instead, not caring about individual -i.e. abstracted- vocabulary items. The difference has been abyssmal so far. The idea is to mine entire texts for a while, then keep doing entire sentences until I can read with some ease; I don't think I'm interested in native-like fluency or anything like that so I guess I can ditch anki in the near future. The problem is to decide which texts are "essential". I've begun with the Gospel of John, any other suggestions are appreciated.

>>25549559
whatever poetry I know by heart is just through repeated reading but no method tbqh, I memorized it more by accident than by a conscious effort

>>25549647
should do it halfway, make cards about words/verbs BUT present them within given example sentences so that they aren't isolated

>>25549668
That's how I was doing it and no, that's not better than looking them up in a dictionary. It's probably even less efficient.

>>25549647
>latinfags
They're a funny bunch, isn't it? They incarnate completely both the redditor and chud archetypes somehow.

>>25549559
that's what the verse is for. let me try
LL LSSL LSSL LSSL SL
tu ne quaesieris scire nefas quem mihi quem tibi
finem di dederint, Leuconoe, nec babylonios
temparis numeros, ut melius quicquid erit pati.
seu pluris hiemes, seu tribuit Iuppiter ultimam
quae nunc oppositis debilitat pumicibus mare
tirrenum, sapias, uina liques, et spatio brevi
spem longam reseces. dum loquimur fugerit inuida
aetas. carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
I'll post without checking it. I had to verify the quantity of fūgerit with a dictionary though (and how to write Tyrrhenum kek)

>>25549983
>temparis
temptaris

>>25549559
There are a few different methods I know. The first is an online spaced repetition system called linebyline.app. At some point I fell off of it, but it's effective if you can stick with it. The second is:
>Read the poem
>Then, go through one line at a time, first reading the line out loud and then repeating it while looking away
>Then do the same thing two lines at a time, then three, four, five, and six
The person I learned this from said then you sleep on it; I'm not sure if this part's necessary, I haven't done it. The third is:
>Read the text aloud a few times
>Copy out by hand the first letter of each word, keeping punctuation and formatting as closely as possible
>Try to read the text off of that, referring to the original if necessary
>Once you've successfully read it off the initial letters a few times, try to recite it entirely blind
I've even applied this method to Chinese poetry, with Pinyin initials of each character rather than first letters of each word.

scribo hunc textum pro verificare si exclauserunt me ex hoc loco. In Ultimo temporibus quo veni ad 4chan, meum IP exductus est. Infimus lucus de WEB rejicit me.

>>25549647
I really, really like this post.
>Gospel of John
Someone already made an anki deck that’s every NT verse with a built in pop-up dictionary/parser. I don’t remember the exact name.

I think you’re right about sentence cards though, especially with Latin where I feel like I’m so often fighting syntax rather than vocabulary.


>>25549744
Fair.

>>25550175
sunt dies in quibus mecum volito num ianitores vel moderatores consulto hoc faciant, pellere ob pusilla qui totus situs paulatim derelinquatur iam frequentia infirmior ac solebat

vocabularius patricii litteraturae eligit me; medicaput sum; si phrasis simplicem SVO non habet, non intellego; lacrimam vertere volo.
Anglam linguam didici sine hac difficultate.

>>25550770
expulsus temporarius fuit. Hac hora conspurcare vestrum colloquium cum pessima latina lingua mea possum. Correctum et pulchrum dialectum quasi habetis, sed in hoc loco sum ad loqui.

>>25550889
noli vexari, loquendo enim fit facundia vel potius scribendo in interrete necnon legendo, quanto enim legis tanto facilius quae conaris scribere bona aut mala diiudicare poteris

>>25550902
eloquens veriloquium, amice, dictionarium librum infeliciter usavi pro intelligere tuos verbos. Nunc gerund(iv)us casus est ex meo intellecto.

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I love participles!

>>25550902
>quanto enim legis tanto facilius quae conaris scribere bona aut mala diiudicare poteris
Recte dicis. Mirum est quam celeriter tantum legendo copia loquendi scribendique crescat. Cum tiro maiora opera Latine scripta legere suscepissem, verba Latina enuntiare de improviso incepi, nullo alio exercitio adhibito.

>>25551004
>puella vocata
the called girl
>puella vocatura
the girl about to be called
>puella vocans
the girl being called OR the girl calling??

>>25551016
>vocatura
*about to call(active)
>vocans
calling

>>25551019
for some reason I thought that participles were always passive

>>25551070
Latin has them only in a zigzag pattern if you will

present vocans(act) --(pass)
perfect --(act) vocatus(pass)
future vocaturus(act) --(pass)

Greek is king of participles of all flavors

The periphrastic future passive infinitive in Latin is something that I remember being taught very clearly, but one almost never encounters it in actual practice. I think I read somewhere that it occurs less than a couple hundred times in all of classical literature.

>>25551082
I am retarded and can't understand that syntax, do you mean -tus is passive, -ans is active, -turus is active as well?

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>>25551106
yes, it's hard to tabulate things here but that's the idea, mnemonically if you will

>>25551106
>do you mean -tus is passive, -ans is active, -turus is active as well?
I'm not that anon, but you have that right. The only exception is deponent verbs, where the -tus ending is active in meaning.

>>25551082
You forgot the future passive: vocandus, although I can understand why you would avoid teaching the form simply as a future passive participle.

https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/gerund-and-gerundive

Also deponents deserve a mention (cf. >>25551135), as many of the choicest verbs in Latin are deponent.

>>25551212
I considered it because indeed some do, but when I learned Latin I never found it described as such

>>25551212
>>25551216
I've always objected to calling gerundives participles. They're verbal adjectives, sure, but they work quite differently than true participles.

>>25551256
I understand your concern, sir, but Donatus says that they're participles.

>tempora participiorum quot sunt?
>tria.

>quae?
>praesens, ut legens, praeteritum, ut lectus, futurum, ut lecturus et legendus.

https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/don.html

>>25551343
Yeah, well, he can kick rocks.

>>25551359
Donatus is right and you're wrong. Every ancient grammarian and pretty much all modern linguists agree with him.

>>25551417
>pretty much all modern linguists agree with him.
You've overextended yourself with this claim. From a modern perspective, the gerundive is a modal verbal adjective rather than a temporal participle. Ancient Latin grammarians called them participles because they were constrained by a closed set of parts of speech developed by Greek scholars like Dionysius Thrax. Teachers often keep the label of 'future passive participle' for reasons of tradition and convenience.

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The frog commands it:

Easy
Who yelled?
Someone is angry with you.
This plant can grow everywhere.

Medium
Is he even sure the cart can hold that much weight?
I think next time I see him I'll ask him about it.
Back then most people believed that if they stood under that tree they'd grow taller!

Hard
Here, take this! I know you are scared and if I were you I'd be myself, but unless you have a better idea or know another way or hope that some god is going to come down and rescue us, be of good cheer and do it, there's not much time left before the passage closes and we're stuck here forever!

I was briefly amused that the common word for "camp" (στρατόπεδον) in Ancient Greek is obviously related to the word for "army" (στρατός), but then I realized that there were realistically few other contexts outside of military campaigns in which an Ancient Greek would go camping. I don't think many of them were going out and spending their weekends on the lake. Anyways, I'm dumb.

>>25551655
I mean I think it's a fitting anthropological observation, do people from non western cultures pre-contact even do it themselves? as in, seek spaces not anthropomorphized for the sake of it without necessity

>>25551678
>do people from non western cultures pre-contact even do it themselves?
That's a good question which I don't know the answer to. When did it start in the West, anyway? Maybe with the hermits?

>>25551698
idk but there has to be an element of pre-anthropomorphization I guess i.e scarcity of truly dangerous animals, proximity to civilized places, though mentality is probably also a big part of it

Other than the ablative, what is something Latin can do that Greek can't?

>>25551986
Form sentences that aren't loaded with dozens of barely-translatable particles and discourse markers.

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>>25551636
had to review my indirect discourse hypotheticals they can't stay in my head

τίς ἔκραγεν;
σοὶ ἄχθεταί τις
βλαστάνει τόδε τὸ φυτὸν πανταχοῦ

ἆρα σάφ' οἶδεν δύνασθαι τὴν ἅμαξαν τοσοῦτον σταθμὸν ὑπέχειν;
ὅτ' ἄν πάλιν ἐντυγχάνω αὐτοῦ δοκῶ μοι ἀνερωτᾶν αὐτό
τοῖς πάλαι πλείστοις ἐδόκει κατὰ μῆκος αὐξάνεσθαι εἰ ὑπ' ἐκείνῳ τῷ δένδρῳ ἴσταιντο!

ἰδού, δέχου τόδε! ἔγνων μέν σε φόβον ἔχοντα κεὶ ἐν χώρᾳ σου ἦν ἔχειν ἄν ἐμαυτόν, ἀλλ' ἐὰν δὲ μὴ κρείττον' ἔχῃς γνώμην ἢ ἄλλον τινὰ τρόπον ἤ τινὰ θεὸν ὀυρανόθεν ἐπικουρήσονθ' ἡμῖν προσδέχῃ, εὔφραινε καὶ τλῆθι, οὐ γὰρ πολὺς ἔτ' ὑπάρχεται χρόνος πρὶν ἄν κατακλείηται ἡ διάβασις κεἰσαεὶ μενοῦμεν ἐνθάδε!

>>25551636

Quis clamavit?
Aliquis cum tibi iratis est.
Haec herba in aliloco crescit.

Scitne quem carrum tantum ferre potest?
Cras hac re eum interrogaro.
Tunc omnes credebant quam essere ad illam arborem omnem crescere potest!

>t. lowit

I'm quite liking Catullus. I memorized poem 5 and that's helping me read a lot of the rest more easily, as long as its in the same meter. But some of the meter he uses seems really weird in some of his poems, can anyone explain? Like I read a praise to Diana today IIRC and was not sure how to take it.

>>25552346
most are in hendecasyllables but some aren't, have you checked https://hypotactic.com/latin/index.html?Use_Id=catullus
the one to Diana I never met myself but it doesn't seem too hard

>>25552200
>Aliquis cum tibi iratis est.
irascor/iratus takes the dative of the one you are angry with so iratus tibi est is fine, cum takes the ablative not the genitive
>in aliloco
ubique

>Scitne quem carrum tantum ferre potest?
quem doesn't work here, posse instead of potest(whole sentence must be in the infinitive)

>Cras hac re eum interrogaro.
interrogo mainly works either using two accusatives, so ask someone(acc) something(acc), or one accusative and de + thing, so ask someone(acc) about something(de + abl)
if you use the first, then hanc rem, if the latter de hac re

>Tunc omnes credebant quam essere ad illam arborem omnem crescere potest!
to be under is best translated I think as sub X stare(stare indicating standing upright as opposed to iacere), again, all phrase goes in the infinitive, though you could break it down with a subordinate, like
>omnes, qui sub illa arbore starent, crescere staturā/proceritate posse

>>25552346
>can anyone explain? Like I read a praise to Diana today
catullus 34?
>Dīānae sumus in fidē
>puellae et puerī integrī:
>Dīānam puerī integrī
>puellaeque canāmus.
>etc
look like built around a choriamb, -uu-
xx -uu- u-
...
xx -uu- -

>>25552764

THanks for correcting me; I started to study latin recently.

I used quem there, but I really don't know how xD

>I know science.
>Scio scientiam.

By (dumb) analogy,

>I know that thing...
>Ego scio quam rem...

>>25553075
don't confuse relative pronouns with demonstratives, the "that" in "that thing" is a demonstrative, quam from qui, quae, quod is a relative pronoun
demonstratives in Latin are hic, iste, ille and such, relative pronouns as the name says, relative pro-nomine, are used to reference other nouns e.g
>ego scio rem, quem(that is, rem) memorasti
demonstratives instead are used to specify, like "that" thing as opposed to another, and Latin demonstratives vary by "distance" so to speak i.e how close to the speaker they are hic = right here, this one, ille = right there, that one

>>25552746
Yes I use hypotactic for when I can’t figure out meter myself

>>25553102
mb for the ambiguous example. I mean I conjugated "qui" together with the subordinate clause it introduces as if they were all a single direct object:
>I know that you know
Ego scio quem te scis

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>>25547982
I just want to stop by and encourage the people of this thread. Most of /lit/ is /b/- or /pol/-tier posting with a PNG of a book cover in the OP, but you folks are discussing scansion of Catullus poems. It's wholesome, is all.

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>>25553497
gratias tibi Dive Iuli Imperator Galliae

Ladies, you don't need special cosmetics to have luxuriant eyelashes; you just need to work as braziers!
>'Quod autem dixisti, Evangele, de acuto aeneo, ni fallor coniectura mea a vero non deviat. est enim in aere vis acrior, quam medici stypticam vocant, unde squamas eius adiciunt remediis quae contra pemiciem putredinis advocantur. deinde qui in metallo aeris morantur, semper oculorum sanitate pollent, et quibus ante palpebrae nudatae fuerant, illic convestiuntur.

What is also interesting is that those in classical antiquity knew that bronze has natural antimicrobial properties:
>Aristoteles vero auctor est vulnera quae ex aereo mucrone fiunt minus esse noxia quam ex ferro faciliusque curari: "quia inest," inquit, "aeri vis quaedam remedialis et siccifica, quam demittit in vulnere."
(Macr. 7.16.33-34, e persona Dysarii medici)

>"lis" in Old Latin was spelled "stlis"
Absolutely cursed consonant cluster

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>>25553673
>qui in metallo aeris morantur
this sounds like it's talking rather about those that work in mines no? so not so much the brazier, but the ones who extract the raw material?

>>25553837
Hmm that's definitely possible. The signification of "mine, quarry" is secondary to that of "metal" in Latin, which is the opposite of the Greek μέταλλον, and the verb morari may indicate the word's use as a location.

>>25553851
>>25553837
*signification for "metallum," that is

>>25553851
Lewis and Short seems to also give the mine/quarry signification as primary in Latin

>>25553859
The OLD does as well, so I think you're right. We should get the women in the mines.

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>>25553865
You mean Netflix was on to something?

>>25553960
As they often are

>>25551636
I don't usually do these, but in interest of bumping the thread, I'll do an attempt at the hard sentence.

>Here, take this! I know you are scared and if I were you I'd be myself, but unless you have a better idea or know another way or hope that some god is going to come down and rescue us, be of good cheer and do it, there's not much time left before the passage closes and we're stuck here forever!

I broke the Latin into three parts to make it easier to compare. If the fact that it's not one continuous sentence (according to the punctuation), just insert "et" I guess.

>Ecce, tolle. Te pavere scio. Si tu essem, ipse quoque paverem.
>Nisi tamen consilium tenes melius, nisi deventurum deum ac nos salvaturum speras, aequo animo esto et fac id!
>Paulum temporis restat dum iter claudiatur semperque hic constringamur!

(1) I started with timere for both parts and connected them using a relative clause, following the rule that "'et' bad, relative clause good." However, after typing out my first draft, I decided to turn it into an intransitive construction to more closely match the English grammar, and then I thought it sounded more dramatic without a connecting conjunction. I also decided to change the verb to pavere on revision. I know "ecce" has other forms that might be more appropriate in this case (maybe "eccum"?), but I didn't check.
(2) The most interesting thing here is the "unless... or [unless]..." I wasn't sure of this, and I didn't see a standard construction in my brief look at A&G, so I chose to use "nisi... nisi..." The "fac id" is a subtle joke that the English speakers among us might note.
(3) I wasn't sure what word to use for "passage." I thought the sentence suggested some kind of underground tunnel, so I considered a more cave-like word, but I just settled on using "iter," since it's very broad in meaning, and I think it probably is appropriate here. L&S cites Vitruvius as using it for the hallways or corridors of a building for example. Hopefully I got the tense and mood for the dum-clause.

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>>25554949
adding also mine, I tried making it a bit more interesting seeking alternative expressions

>>25551636
Quis ululavit?
Ira ebullit aliquis in te.
Ubique crescit gramen hoc.

Pro certon habet currum posse tale pondus tolerare?
Certust ubi videam rursum rogare eum hoc.
Olim plurimi censebant statura se promissuros si sub arbore illa consisterent.

En tibi hoc! Sentio te formidine captum esse et memet capturam fuisse si vicem commutaremus sed nisi consilium tibi sit melius sive ratio superior seu spes cuiusdam dei superne opem laturi nobis, bono esto animo et age, fugitur temporis spatium priusquam claudatur transitus et perpetuo permanebimus hic!

>>25554985
>fugitur
*fugit

>>25554949
and btw I think yours is essentially spotless, the -i- in claudiatur I guess is a small oversight
not sure myself about "dum" though, I think it works but it sounded off in my mind

>>25554999
I'm nta, but dum + subj. is well attested in the sense of "until," but it overlaps with its use in the sense of "provided that, while"

chairete /lit/
ti dokeite peri tes hellenikes mou;
autopaideoumai :p
manthanoumenos eti eimi hahaha
kath hemeran prasso ap anaginoskontos ten kainen diatheken
krinete ten helleniken mou, eucharisto soi!!

>>25555058
yes I see it but it kinda rubs me off I think because the sense is negative, if e.g it was "until it stays open" then dum would sound totally fine, whereas this is more like "as long as X not..."

>>25555069
I think I see what you mean, but because the construction is not grammatically negative (i.e. there is no actual negation with a negative adverb), it still works. Personally, I tend to opt for donec just to avoid this sort of confusion.

>>25555066
οὐ μὴν μεμπτέα κατ' ἐυγλωττίαν ἅτε μαθητὴς ὤν ἀλλὰ διὰ τί Ῥωμαϊοῖς γράμμασι γέγραφας φίλε;

>>25555077
he plax mou echei romaikata grammata mona, kai argeoumai sphroda to graphein hellenika grammata hahaha

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>>25555099
ξυνἴημι καὶ ἡ ἐμὴ ὧδε ἔχει ἀλλ' ἵν' Ἑλληνιστὶ γράψω τάδε ἆθλος οὐδείς· ὅτ' ἄν γὰρ πιέζω δύο ὀμφαλώ(μεταφραστέον πως Ἀγγλιστὶ buttons) ἀλλάττεται τὸ σχῆμα τῆς πλακὸς εἰς τὸ ἐν τῷ πίνακι

>>25555139
thaumazon, anon. ara, hos duo omphaloi poiousin touto;

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>>25555258
ἐν τῷ Ἀγγλιστὶ linux καλουμένῳ ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐν τῷ windows δυνατὸν διάθεσιν ἀκριβῆ καταστῆσαι τῶν ὀμφαλῶν ἵνα παραδείγματος ἕνεκα ὅταν P ἢ G πιέζῃς ἐν τῇ πλακὶ Π ἢ Γ φαίνηται γεγραμμένα, καὶ ἐὰν αὖθις ἐκείνην τὴν διάθεσιν πιέζῃς ἀποδίδωσι τὸ πρὶν σχῆμα, ἰδού

>>25554949
Question from someone less experienced. Why “essem” and not “sim” in “si tu essem.” Is imperfect subjunctive preferred for a hypothetical to present subjunctive?

>>25555631
in the present tense, present subjunctive is used for real hypotheticals i.e something that can/may happen, imperfect for unreal conditions
"if I were you" is by its nature unreal i.e I cannot be you

>>25555370
eucharisto soi, anon. an ido eis touto. kale hemera, kurie. :)

bump
>>25555694
ἔρρωσο καὶ σύ, ὠγαθέ

Does anyone else here care for poetry in Latin and Greek, but not in any modern languages? I like a bit of Milton, Wordsworth, Tennyson, but it's not something I often go out of my way to read in English. Even Tolkien once said that he only gained an appreciation for poetry after studying classical languages.

>>25557487
>Even Tolkien once said that he only gained an appreciation for poetry after studying classical languages.
he did? same then, 0 appreciation before it, I guess to be fair it's also probably in part because there was a conscious effort vs encountering modern poetry in my native language basically only in school and in the usual boring curricular way it's often taught

>>25554999
>is essentially spotless
is it? something as innocent-looking as "si tu essem", already in the first sentence, could be completely unidiomatic, it looks like a calque and I'm not sure if it is attested in classical prose.
i'm not saying it's wrong, it probably isn't, i'm just pointing out that it could maybe sound very awkward to a roman

>>25557511
"Ego si tu essem" is found in Plautus. More common is "si in tuo loco essem," which is found in Cicero, Pliny Minor, and Seneca.

>>25557511
I mean there's always some leeway if we are to translate modern idiomatic expressions striking a balance between maintaining the original sense and the "intended" sense: in >>25554985 I for example opted for the potentially also unattested vicem commutare, which stretches the english a bit in the sense of exchanging each other's position.
I was about to say that I thought about searching deeper for a potential attested equivalent and I see >>25557530 preceded me

>>25557530
please post the specific passages, if you have them. I can't find those expressions using the corpus at packhum. thanks in advance

>>25557560
>please post the specific passages
I will not because I made them up.
But seriously, I would typically perform a search on TLL or PHI for instances like this, but I instead relied on an AI assistant for convenience. This has worked well before, but this time, It hallucinated some references that I now cannot verify.

>>25557532
one should try to find the idiomatic phrase an ancient speaker or writer would have used, imho. there must be an attested way to say "if i were in your shoes"
>I was about to say that I thought about searching deeper for a potential attested equivalent and I see >>25557530 # preceded me
i hope to be wrong but i suspect anon made that up, probably using a chatbot.
i was only able to find this one
>si ego in istoc sim loco
Plautus, Bacchides 1039
no "tu esse", no " tuo loco"

>>25557649
>esse
yo esse, i meant "essem"

>>25557649
I found this in Cicero as well
>Non igitur potestas est ex tempore, aut cum velis, opitulandi rei publicae, quamvis ea prematur periculis, nisi eo loco sis, ut tibi id facere liceat
so "to be in the/a/that position" does seem to have established expressions, so "tuo loco essem" I think is perhaps closer to 'be in someone else's position'

I wonder if anyone else gets a strange "bird's eye view" feeling from language learning. When you learn these distant languages, the gap between you and the foreign culture closes, and there is this odd way in which you can just sit down and immerse yourself into a world that's the same yet different. And to constantly flip back and forth between the modern English speaking world where everything is viewed as de facto mundane and trivial, and the ancient world where everything is treated as deeply significant has a strange psychological effect on you.

>>25557487
This is more common than you think. While Latin poetry forces you to appreciate rhythm, modern poets are obsessed with free verse, which barely feels like poetry at all.

>>25557487
When I read Pindar I was so deeply confused by the fact we don't make poetry like this now

>>25557674
yes, you're probably right
https://latin.packhum <<dot>> org/search?q=%23si%23+%7E+%23loco+esse
for example, from Quintillian
>ut Cato: 'cedo, si uos in eo loco essetis, quid aliud fecissetis?'
it seems there is a few eo/eodem loco but not a lot of possessive adjectives. i know latin sometimes omits possessives that are mandatory in english so who knows
these seem relevant too
>Marcus Tullius Cicero, Epistulae ad Familiares 4.4.4.2
>Itaque, cum omnes ante me rogati gratias Caesari egissent praeter Volcacium (is enim, si eo loco esset, negavit se facturum fuisse),

>Titus Livius, Ab Urbe Condita 37.14.4.6
>ibi C. Liuius—is enim est primus rogatus sententiam—neminem fidelius posse dare consilium dixit quam eum, qui id alteri suaderet, quod ipse, si in eodem loco esset, facturus fuerit:

with possessive
>Historia Augusta Aeli Spartiani Severus 17.7.4
>nam et infinita multorum caede crudelior habitus et, cum quidam ex hostibus eidem se suppliciter optulisset <at>que dixisset, ille <si suo loco esset>, qu<i>d facturus es<se>t, non e[st]mollitus tam prudente dicto interfici eum iussit.
(but if I remember correctly, "<...>" indicates additions from the editor, not sure about this edition though)

more results
https://latin.packhum <<dot>> org/search?q=%23si%23+%7E+%23loco+fuiss

>>25557511
>it sounds like
>could be
>I’m not sure if
>could maybe
Least obnoxious latinist

>>25557998
Surely to speak as if one is more certain that one really is would be dishonest?

>>25558005
*than one really is

>>25557716
yeah it's a form of escapism in its own way, in a good sense
I can see myself going back to Homer whenever I want to zoom out of things, it's a form of detachment from the now towards an alternative model, even if it's only in my own head though its vision of the Homeric world

>>25558016
It's the opposite of escapism for me. It gives a weird sense of urgency
When you're an English native, there is so much writing in English that it feels functionally limitless. But when you learn a foreign language and get a bird's eye view, you can see the entire scope of what's being said in the language, and it feels as if you gain a sort of objectivity due to your distance.

I know a non-English language that's being widely spoken nowadays, and nearly everything people are communicating in this language just doesn't matter. And then you go back to English and realize almost nothing people say in English matters either. It's all just chatter. It makes the world feel so small

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Just ordered pic related hardcover for 60 eurobucks. Now trying to imagine my girlfriend's reaction when she sees it in the mail.

>>25558146
UUUUUUUUUD REEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>25557998
>obnoxious
ackchyually did you know "obnoxius" has a completely different meaning in latin? i may (or may not) believe so (i'm not sure though)
you could say i am obnoxius dubiis (perhaps)

>Iam primum omnium satis constat...
ZzZZzzzzzzzZ

>5 year old general
>nobody fluent

fucking yikes

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>>25559051
>>satis constat

>>25557649
Ancient Latin was not spoken Ancient Latin

This is seen through Romance idioms spoken from Lisbon to Bucharest which are unknown in written Latin

Are there audio pronunciation resources for Greek? I don't have the distilled autism required to learn pronunciation from text descriptions and I have deep hatred for the IPA vowel chart

>>25559091
I often rec this http://atticgreek.org because it's where I learned especially the accentuation, I found their scheme good; as for pronunciation, they help with both Erasmian and reconstructed

for auditory practice, check https://www.youtube.com/@Podium-arts/videos

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>>25559064
fluiditas? quomodo datur cuivis hodie linguam latinam colat metiri facundiam absentibus Quiritibus quibuscum conferri loquela possit
satin magistri calvi iudicium accipere vice fungentis Quiritium?

>>25559076
yeah, everyone knows latin was actually a sign language

>>25559217
quare pepinus infelix est

>>25559225
magni artefices hodie loco investigandi quomodo fabricentur aevi mutandi machinam ut possimus cum antiquis comminus colloqui tempus terunt simulacra oraculorum fingendo et alia pusilla!

>>25558146
Based Sumeroanon. After you receive it, could you scan it and upload somewhere?

I'm that anon >>25533660 btw but I decided against ordering it since paying double the price just because of the delivery cost felt obnoxious.

>γλῶσσαν δ' ὑμετέρην τε καὶ ἡμετέρην σάφα οἶδα·
>Τρωιὰς γὰρ μεγάρωι με τροφὸς τρέφεν ἠδὲ διάπρο
>σμικρὴν παῖδ' ἀτίταλλε φίλης παρὰ μητρὸς ἑλοῦσα·
>ὣς δή τοι γλῶσσάν γε καὶ ὑμετέρην εὖ οἶδα.
(E Hmyno Homerico in Venerem Primo, ll. 113-6)

Ut notat Martinus West, haec est prima hominis bilinguis mentio quae in Graecis litteris exstat. Cum autem ille hanc rem intra Graecas litteras coartasset, quaero quae sit illa prima mentio hominis bilinguis omnium gentium. Nam talis mentio certe in primis Bibliorum inest; estne quaedam etiam prior? Nimis ignoro illa primordia artis scribendi ut tali quaestioni ipse respondeam.

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>>25559432
censeo nonnulli momenti esse quam posuisti quaestionem cum hominem quaeras bilinguem non aliquid bilingue, quod magni sane interest, facilius enim est profecto textus invenire in quibus plures sunt linguae necnon translationes: homines autem nisi ad narrationem quandam pertineant difficilius reor, praecipue cum saepe quod inventum est in ruinis vel excavationibus nihil aliud sit ac tabulariorum opera id est tabulae publicae ad commercia vel vectigalia et alia huiusce generis
nescio ipse tamen et nolo interrete quaerere

Quare hoc filum tam lente evolvitur? An hic locutores tempus terunt linguis studendo libros legendo? Nonne multi mihi dixerunt neminem, qui in /lit/ versetur, re vera libros legere?

>>25559863
*librosque legendo
Ego certe, mente lapsus, particulam "-que" in proxima sententia mea ponere neglexi. At saltem legi potest quasi sub specie asyndeti; eo modo fortasse aliquid eloquentiae mihi vindicare possem.

>>25559076
Isn't the more likely explanation that they spread between related dialects?

δοκεὶ μοι ἑλληνικὰ εἶναι ἡ τῶν γλωσσῶν καλλίστη!

>>25560478
ναὶ δὴ ταῦτά γε πάντα φίλος κατὰ μοῖραν ἔειπες!

>>25561131
καὶ εἰ ἐσφαλμένη εἴη ἡ ἡμετέρα κρίσις , οὐκ ἄν βουλοίμην ὀρθός γενέσθαι!

Tantum delectant Plinii Minoris epistulae ut denae paginae verterentur antequam animadvertam. Stilus eius non tam pressus ac concisus quam abundans atque effluens est, sed tamen multa doctrina multisque figuris ornatus. Ne praeteream et illa rerum historicarum fragmenta passim interspersa, velut illam praeclaram Christianorum priscorum mentionem in epistula XCVI, libri X. Denique, eum vobis commendo.

>>25561368
Accipio hoc Plini libellum maximo cum studio legendi. Gratias refero tibi pro benignitate tua.

- Scriptum Brundisii meo iphono a.d. iii Kal. Oct.

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>>25559863
non est detrimento cum pauci simus istis oblectamentis occupati, eam ob rem /lit/ loco aliarum tabularum optima visa est tabula ad ea colenda, iam ante desertiorem factum situm anno vel duobus annis abhinc haud facile erat servare filum linguis antiquis colendis et saepe valde Acherunticum videbatur
hodie fortasse nostro emolumento fit desertio, facilius vivit filum

Here's a passage from the Summa Theologica I was reading yesterday, that I found humorous. The context is whether God exists (utrum deus sit), where he lists his "five ways" that the existence of God can be proven. This quote is from his "third way," where he argues for the existence of something "per se necessarium, non habens causam necessitatis aliunde, sed quod est causa necessitatis aliis."

>Tertia via est sumpta ex possibili et necessario, quae talis est. Invenimus enim in rebus quaedam quae sunt possibilia esse et non esse, cum quaedam inveniantur generari et corrumpi, et per consequens possibilia esse et non esse.

>Impossibile est autem omnia quae sunt, talia esse, quia quod possibile est non esse, quandoque non est. Si igitur omnia sunt possibilia non esse, aliquando nihil fuit in rebus. Sed si hoc est verum, etiam nunc nihil esset, quia quod non est, non incipit esse nisi per aliquid quod est; si igitur nihil fuit ens, impossibile fuit quod aliquid inciperet esse, et sic modo nihil esset, quod patet esse falsum. Non ergo omnia entia sunt possibilia, sed oportet aliquid esse necessarium in rebus.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q2.A3

The argument seems to be something along the lines that we can see that there are things that don't necessarily have to exist because they are created and destroyed. If something can exist or not exist, then there was a time where it didn't exist. If everything was so, then there was a time when nothing existed. And something that doesn't exist can't start existing by itself; it can only start existing by way of something that already exists. Therefore, if nothing was eternal and necessary per se, then nothing would exist now.

I found the wording to be amusing. (My standards for humor at this point in my life are not very high.) I'm having fun with this, and I think the Latin is relatively simple even if the ideas and arguments are not always so easy to understand. The website has a lot of his works, maybe all of them, with translations. For the Bible readers here, the biblical commentaries are also good. I've read some in English translation in the past.

>>25562612
I don’t feel ready for Aquinas not insofar as his Latin is especially hard but that I have basically zero experience in systematic theology and would want to try to learn it entirely via Latin. I have pars I of the Summa in the leonine edition.

I always thought his writing would be excellent for actually cogitating in the target language. I also have wondered if maybe Pliny the Elder would be good reading to cultivate output for a similar-ish reason since looking at his work it is so syntactically straightforward.

>>25562612
I think you got that right, it's my reading as well: not a bad starting case for a metaphysics of being I guess but from that to "god" I can see why these arguments have a bad reputation in the whole religious debates environment

>>25563209
Even anon’s own post says it’s merely one of 5 arguments presented, but the full “question” is much longer and more fleshed out. Nevertheless, the existence of a divinity at all was I guess just less disputed in the 13th century compared to other eras, so the first few questions have way more to do with God’s nature and the role of theology compared to other “sciences” since that was more contentious at the time.

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>tfw just finished Chapter 10 of Lingua Latina

I read it over and over across about two weeks. I alternated between reading the meat of the chapter and reading the grammatical sections in the back. Then I did all the Pensvms.

Now it's on to Chapter 11.

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>>25547983
κλῆρον πάλλω

>>25563919
ὄοφ, κατά μου φαίνοιντ' ἄν εἰρημένα τάδε «ὃς δὲ οὐ δὲ φθόγγου κατακούων οὐ δὲ τὴν ἀκοὴν γεγυμνασμένος ἥκει τῶν λόγων ἀκουσόμενος, οὗτος ἀπίτω τὰς θύρας ἐπιθεὶς ταῖς ἀκοαῖς. ἐμφράξει γὰρ τὰ ὦτα καὶ παρὼν τῷ μὴ προγινώσκειν ταῦτα αἰσθήσει, περὶ ὧν οἱ λόγοι»

Βοιωτὸς γὰρ ἐγὼ κατὰ τὰ τεχνικῶς σκοπούμενα μουσικὰ καὶ χαλεπῶς ξυνίημι τοὺς ἔλεγεν λόγους περὶ αὐτῶν· οὐ μὴν ἄμουσος ὡς ἀδύνατος εὖ ἔχειν ἀκούων τοὺς δεινοὺς ἀλλ' ἐὰν ἄρχῃς λέγειν περὶ τόνων ἢ ἄλλων τινῶν τοιῶνδε χαίρε καὶ ἄλλους μᾶλλον λύπει!

>>25562975
You don't have to totally understand what he is talking about to enjoy it or use it to practice your Latin. You also don't have to commit to reading the entire thing cover-to-cover before you start looking at it. The Summa Theologica has a wide variety of topics, some more approachable than others. That's the great thing about the ST for casual reading. You can jump in wherever you want, find an interesting question, and read one or more of the articles without being totally lost or feeling obligated to read more.

If you have the goal of learning theology "entirely via Latin," but you don't want to read Thomas Aquinas because you have "basically zero experience," how are you ever going to get ready? What Latin-only resources do you have in mind to get started?

>>25563209
I think these are intended as basic sketches of the arguments, not comprehensive treatments. I also suspect there's a pedagogical reason for the five ways. Not necessarily because there are only five ways, but because the five ways show that the nature of the world points to the existence of God (or more strictly, consistent with how people conceive of God). My print edition has a "conclusio" in between the "sed contra" and "respondeo," which gives a helpful summary of the response.

>Necesse est in rerum natura inveniri unum primum ens immobile, primum efficiens, necessarium non ex alio; maxime ens, bonum, et optimum; primum gubernans per intellectum, et omnium ultimum finem, qui Deus est.

The other thing is that the book was written as a textbook for beginners. In the prologue, the ST is likened to milk (for infants) rather than solid food: "tanquam parvulis in Christo, lac vobis potum dedi, non escam." The stated intention is to cover all the important material for beginning students "breviter ac dilucide." Interestingly too, he says that he's writing the book because existing texts are constrained by having to "commenting on books" (according to the translation on that page; Latin: "quod requirebat librorum expositio"). Maybe he had his own Commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard in mind.

>Consideravimus namque huius doctrinae novitios, in his quae a diversis conscripta sunt, plurimum impediri... partim etiam quia ea quae sunt necessaria talibus ad sciendum, non traduntur secundum ordinem disciplinae, sed secundum quod requirebat librorum expositio...

In the conclusion to each of the five ways, he qualifies that what the thing he's proving are consistent with what people (or theists at least) mean when they speak of "God" (e.g., "quod omens dicunt deum"). You're right that for someone who considers himself a materialist (for example), even if he agrees entirely with the argument, he might says something like, "even though substances themselves come into and out of being, maybe the underlying matter itself is eternal and necessary per se." That's not a stupid objection, but it's beyond the scope of this particular article.

>>25564053
>What Latin-only resources do you have in mind to get started?
I have in print a lexicon of philisophical-theological terminology written in Latin, and at least a .pdf of a textbook on basic systematic theology written in Latin. So I mean that I want some mix of 1. Firmer confidence in my Latin reading ability generally, can’t grapple with concepts as well when I’m fighting the sentences too much 2. Maybe spend some time with those other books to get a basic grasp.

I was hoping to use the commentaries in the leonine addition to help but in practice they seem both harder to read and go deeper conceptually.

>>25563258
It's actually a really interesting article, not just for the proofs of God's existence, but because the two listed objections are two of most likely objections that you'd hear from the average atheist off the street:

(1) God is (hypothetically) infinite good; but if there were infinite good, then there would be no room for evil to exist. But evil does exist. Therefore, God cannot exist.
(2) Everything can be explained in the world by the laws of nature and by human action. People made up "gods" to explain natural phenomenon that their puny, primitive brains couldn't understand. Now we know how to use science to figure the natural laws of the universe, and there's no need to throw some "God" into the mix to explain anything. Occam's razor. *tips fedora*

Also, for anyone who prefers a simpler format website, I've also found this website. (If you're observant, you might also notice the link to the "e-book library" at the top of the page.)

https://isidore.co/aquinas/

And the Github repository.

https://github.com/Geremia/AquinasOperaOmnia

>>25564068
I would just be afraid that there's something you really want to do, but you don't ever get to the point where you feel ready to start. In the five ways section we're talking about, the text cites the Metaphysics for the fourth way. The print edition I have also has citations in the footnotes to the Physics and the Metaphysics for the first way. You could say that you're not ready to read this argument until you've thoroughly studied these works of Aristotle. I can't say I would be able to clearly and thoroughly explain the difference between the different concepts in the first three ways (motion/motus, efficient cause, necessity/cause of necessity) if I was really put to the test and interrogated on it, nor do I feel like I really understand the principle behind the fourth way. Nevertheless, I still feel like I profited from reading it, both from the perspective of practicing Latin, and because I'm getting acquainted with the ideas contained in this book even if I don't totally understand them.

>>25563761
Excellent work. A wise man once said, "Non via longa est Romam." As long as we stay on our feet and keep moving, we'll all get there in our own time.

>>25564076
I find his commentary on aristotle very easy to read.

>>25564099
I’ve read the first few questions already I’m just preoccupied with other Latin projects and feel waiting will profit me in the long run.

>>25563761
You’ve taken your first steps into a larger world. I remember that learning the third declension was the point where I knew enough to make some of the easiest Latin doable.

>Quam imprudenter Romani deos penates, qui Trojam custodire non potuerant, sibi crediderunt profuturos.
Part of why I’m not hyped yet about St. Aquinas is because St. Augustine’s prose is so delightful and I have yet to read all the big works.

>>25559051
I recognized that line years after my last reading of Livy's first book. I never got past book 4 but the first one still remains maybe one of my favorite reads because it's in that sweet spot between mythology and history

>>25564274
Isn't Aquinas's book the equivalent of a modern thousand-page scientific publication though? Dry on purpose, I mean.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZByDOoDjIM

>>25564274
>>25564926
Aquinas wrote some nice poetry in a simple Medieval Latin.

Adoro te devote, latens deitas,
Quæ sub his figuris vere latitas;
Tibi se cor meum totum subjicit,
Quia te contemplans totum deficit.

Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur,
Sed auditu solo tuto creditur.
Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius;
Nil hoc verbo Veritátis[6] verius.

In Cruce[6] latebat sola Deitas,
At hic latet simul et Humanitas,
Ambo tamen credens atque confitens,
Peto quod petivit latro pœnitens.

Plagas, sicut Thomas, non intueor:
Deum tamen meum te confiteor.
Fac me tibi semper magis credere,
In te spem habere, te diligere.

O memoriale mortis Domini,
Panis vivus, vitam præstans homini,
Præsta meæ menti de te vívere,
Et te illi semper dulce sapere.

Pie Pelicane, Jesu Domine,
Me immundum munda tuo Sanguine:[6]
Cujus una stilla salvum facere
Totum mundum quit ab omni scelere.

Jesu, quem velatum nunc aspicio,
Oro, fiat illud quod tam sitio:
Ut te revelata cernens facie,
Visu sim beátus tuæ gloriæ. Amen.

>>25564926
He wrote a lot of stuff

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I was surprised to see that Martin West translates Zeus's epithet αἰγίοχος as "goat-rider" instead of the more common rendering as "aegis-bearer." Apparently, West maintains that the reading of "aegis-bearer" is the result of a folk etymology retroactively fitted to the term; that its derivation from αἰγίς is untenable; and, furthermore, that there are parallels to be found in comparative Indo-European mythology. This seems obvious now, but I had never given it much thought.

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>>25566067
that's interesting, the objection does makes sense for the lack of the proper root αιγιδ- although some of it to me doesn't quite sound right: one word that has -οχος that came immediately to mind even before γαιήοχος is ἠνίοχος and in this case οχος being from ἔχω seems clear, no? I'm not sure if he's saying that the οχος in γαιήοχος isn't from the same verb/root

in any case, why would it be goat-rider? from αἴγιον? im confus

>>25566082
to be precise, I maybe understand two different roots are at play according to him, one is from PIE *wogh the other from PIE *segh, second gives ἔχω, etc... the former ὄχεα/ ὄχος, etc.... but an *οχος from an o grade of *segh should still be regular in Greek no? and thus you have an οχος with the sense of carry/bear and one with the sense of driving, and he's saying then, I guess, αἴγιον + οχος(from *wogh) gives goat-driver

>>25566082
>some of it to me doesn't quite sound right: one word that has -οχος that came immediately to mind even before γαιήοχος is ἠνίοχος and in this case οχος being from ἔχω seems clear, no? I'm not sure if he's saying that the οχος in γαιήοχος isn't from the same verb/root
The -οχος ending can be derived from either ἔχω or from ϝέχω; they would look identical in this context, and that's why γαιήοχος is variaously translated in both ways.
>in any case, why would it be goat-rider? from αἴγιον? im confus
He's deriving it from αἴξ, which has the stem αἰγ-.

>>25566100
>He's deriving it from αἴξ, which has the stem αἰγ-.
but what about the iota in front of οχος? αἴξ should give αἰγόχος no?

>>25566102
Yeah, I realized that about the iota as I was typing it. He's written about this in multiple places, so I'll have to do some more digging to see how he explains it. I guess you have to ask what is more objectionable, the insertion of a vowel or the loss of a consonant in the stem.

>>25566103
>>25566102
I just realized where the iota could come from. An epenthetic iota is often added between consants when forming compound adjectives (e.g. ἀρχίκακος). In this case, there were two consonants next to each other, gamma and digamma, so an iota was added between.

>>25566103
while checking some other words I see that similar troubles would seem to appear with e.g words like αἰγιαλός that also try to derive the first part from αἰγίς in one of the two senses
I wonder if there's some imitation perhaps of how third declension nouns like πόλις form compounds, like πτολίπορθος, here if one used the ῆϝ ending one would get something different

>>25566113
that could be it too I guess, so the iota is added before digamma falls out, makes sense

btw doesn't Thor also ride a chariot draw by goats? could be a common mythical attribute of the thunder god that was also transported to Zeus

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>>25566129
West makes that same comparison!

>>25566132
lol nice, he seems to think it's unseemly, if it's indeed something that traces back to when pre-proto-Hellenes had a separated thunder deity, the question would remain, why the goats
but now that the iota makes sense, perhaps the interpretation of αἰγίς as storm isn't bad either and is in character

I will always defend Loebs. Their introductions, notes, and bibliographies for further reading have sent me down so many enriching rabbit holes. They're good for discovering new areas of interest.

>>25566504
I like them too

>>25565589
Farya Faraji praising it as authentic-to-the-best-of-our-knowledge in the comments? Damn, that's high praise.

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which arabic authors, philosophers, poets etc. would I be able to read from learning classical arabic?

>>25567556
Basically all of them, as far as I know. Arabs today still write in more or less Classical Arabic.

>>25547982
Anyone read Αρειος Ποτηρ και η του φιλοσοφου λιθος?

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>>25567951
no but I remember downloading and reading bits here and there and I was impressed by how good the Attic is

Does anybody here have any experience with Ottoman Turkish?

>>25568384
Isn't Ottoman Turkish essentially modern Turkish but with more Persian/Arabic loanwords and written in Arabic letters?

>>25568396
I believe so, yes.

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>10% of all extant Ancient Greek literature was written by Galen

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>>25568471
>*check on oxytone*
yeah that looks like a big boy alright

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Found a cool database of a lot of British Latin from 1500-1700. There's really just mountains of cool literature by good authors that are obscure because they're not the classical canon.

https://scholarcommons.sc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2186&context=ssl
https://philological.cal.bham.ac.uk/analytic.html

Started reading my first middle englissh text (Canterbury Tales) and I've been doing out loud since I've been home alone. I'm trying me best at "authentic" pronunciation but I must say it sounds quite ridiculous in an Australian accent.
I was reciting it in the front room; some of the neighbourhood kids were playing in my front yard, as is their wont, and I could've sworn I heard one of them laughing at me...

>latin fags be like lemme write a few sentences as abstrusely as possible because being hard to understand is the only quality I can recognize in classical texts
latin like are this fags why?

>>25551082
>Greek is king of participles
Pain.

I have a horrible disease where I stop reading works 50%+ into them, sometimes 90%.

>>25569655
Nescio

>>25569655
Maybe your reading skills just aren't very good

>>25569655
>latin like are this fags why?
what?

>>25569655
>because being hard to understand is the only quality I can recognize in classical texts
holy projection

>>25569655
>>25569786
Both of you are correct.

latinfags be like
>here is normal sentence, lemme randomly scramble it little bit to make it more kikeronian (articles? that's for gayreeks)

>>25569852
>article
You’re misusing terminology, articles are in fact for gayreeks. But yes dropping prepositions for no reason and writing sentences more architecturally complex than Cicero just leads to opaque writing especially because a fair amount of the time such sentences posted here have basic errors in case/gender/number agreement so it just turns into word vomit. When I write I try to focus on natural thought and only embellish insofar as it’s clear and not indulgent. I notice a lot of the renaissance neo-latinists write like that.

>>25569862
>architecturally complex
kek good one (sorry i mean hæhæhæ)
hope you don mind if i stæl this phrase, gonna start using it masel

>>25569852
>lemme randomly scramble it little bit to make it more kikeronian
It's not random scrambling. Classical Latin word order is determined by pragmatic factors like topic, focus, and emphasis as well as rhetorical figures like antithesis. There's plenty of literature on constituent order in Latin sentences. It just looks random to you because you don't understand it.

>>25569932
>It's not random scrambling
It shouldn’t be. But online it often is. It’s great to mix order to emphasize words but if the only thing you’re emphasizing is how poorly you can write a sentence no one gives a shit.

>It just looks random to you because you don't understand it
I don’t understand it without careful parsing because it’s random. When Livy does it I understand it. You’re not Livy.

>>25569939
I won't disagree that there are many poor attempts at Latin composition online, but I also see some good ones. Give me an example of what you see as randomized order in Latin written here, and I'll tell you if I agree.

>>25569932
>It's not random scrambling. Classical Latin
latinfags be like
>someone talkin' 'bout la'in fags? must be a direkt attack on kikero's style
>implying...
trivia: there's 2 (two) "implying" in the previous sentence

>>25570027
Give an example of random scrambling, and I'll tell you if I agree.

i wonder if latinfags enjoy the same reputation in academia as the violas in the string section

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>BRITANNIA omnis, ... , dividitur in partes quatuor, quarum unam incolunt Angli, aliam Scoti, tertiam Walli, quartam Cornubienses. Hi omnes vel lingua vel moribus seu institutis inter se differunt.
>POLYDORI VERGILII URBINATIS ANGLICAE HISTORIAE LIBER I
It's almost comical how intentionally derivative the humanists can be but it makes for great reading. It almost feels like when you're reading a pedagogical reader and it has some phrase like "O tempora, o mores!" in there that just jumps out at you.

>>25570042
Idk, I've never interacted with one and I don't ever intend to.

>>25570030
Roomba in Iiiiiiiiiitaliaaaaast.
(the I longa is long due to metrical reasons)

>>25570103
Ah okay, you're just a troll, a retard, or both

>>25570097
>It's almost comical how intentionally derivative the humanists can be
No, that means all texts are fake and made up by Benedictine monks. A Russian mathematician proved it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_chronology_(Fomenko)

>>25570104
that wasn't me

From a latin forum I frquent.
>Classicos igitur quorum auctores gravitate sententiarum atque vetustatis maiestate eruditi animus lectoris non tam delectatur quam ad sublimiorem quandam mentis disciplinam paulatim adducitur pertractandos ita esse censeo ut festinans neque oculus neque iudicii facilitas levis sensuum arcana illorum longo saeculorum silentio quasi consecratorum temere sibi vindicare praesumat sed, assidua crebris meditatione annotationibus, comparatione exemplorum et reverentia paene sacerdotali quadam, ea tandem intellegat, quae prima fronte simplicia penitus autem inspecta humanae totius vestigia sapientiae prae se ferant.

>>25570337
Is he allergic to punctuation?

>>25567979
tempted to pick up a copy. Shame the current cover is shitty.

>>25570337
>Classicos igitur - quorum auctores gravitate sententiarum atque vetustatis maiestate eruditi animus lectoris non tam delectatur quam ad sublimiorem quandam mentis disciplinam paulatim adducitur - pertractandos ita esse censeo; ut festinans neque oculus neque iudicii facilitas levis sensuum arcana illorum longo saeculorum silentio quasi consecratorum temere sibi vindicare praesumat. Sed, assidua crebris meditatione annotationibus, comparatione exemplorum et reverentia paene sacerdotali quadam, ea tandem intellegat; quae prima fronte simplicia penitus, autem inspecta humanae totius, vestigia sapientiae prae se ferant.
Okay, this seems competent, but it's absolutely intentionally trying to sound learned and in the process making it obnoxious to read. The point being, it makes no sense for the context of a forum, because something like this isn't created to generate response and discussion, but so the author can masturbate and all 3 people in the dead forum can be in awe of his massive periods,

>>25568987
Funny, there are works by David Hume (not the philosopher, but rather a man with the same name born over a century prior) and his son (the philosopher never married nor had kids). Thanks for sharing.

>>25570487
>>25569766

>>25570487
wouldn't overthink it, it's part of the fun, to imitate the more grandiose style, it requires going over the dictionary to search for idioms, then recall the proper constructions and if necessary look them up again, etc.... it's understandably a sort of late Latin learning/using goal

latinfags on sibi-mortem-consciscere-watch (suicide is postclassical)

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>>25571139
>check Novum Lexicum Manuale for compound nouns starting with αὐτο- and their Latin translation/expression
>mfw

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People will hate you for saying it, but learning a ton of hapax legomena is actually how you become a confident reader.

uncomfortable truth nuke: reading Latin/Greek books in the original is a significantly worse experience than in a translation in literally any modern language
>no ebooks
>critical editions are unreadable (often due to inconsistent u/v, j/i etc. choices, sometimes no punctuation) and they are extremely expensive with no commentary
>the two best places to read Latin/Greek books for free are the Latin Library (which never lists its sources) and Perseus, both of which don't properly proofread the texts and rely on very old editions of works (which are inferior to the latest critical editions)
>you won't find cheap paperbacks of Latin or Greek books
>the best possible reading experience is paying 30 € for a Loeb, half of which consists of a bad translation which you don't need
>terrible community of learners
I'm going to keep studying Latin but probably never begin Greek. I don't think anything will change for the better as the Classics are a dying field and nobody actually thinks people learn Latin to read books

>>25571442
>>no ebooks
lol
>>critical editions are unreadable (often due to inconsistent u/v, j/i etc. choices, sometimes no punctuation)
non even a skill issue, just not an issue
>>and they are extremely expensive with no commentary
annasarchive, libgen, welib, zlibrary etc + laser printer, voilà book for 5 bucks (printer priced in)
>>the two best places to read Latin/Greek books for free are the Latin Library (which never lists its sources) and Perseus, both of which don't properly proofread the texts and rely on very old editions of works (which are inferior to the latest critical editions)
>latin library
lmao
packhum, corpus corporum, again any shadow libraru if you really need contemporary editions (you don't)
>>you won't find cheap paperbacks of Latin or Greek books
you do (in Italy) (and therefore in any eurocunt) (usanians aren't human so non issue)
>>the best possible reading experience is paying 30 € for a Loeb, half of which consists of a bad translation which you don't need
10 or 15€ any Italian-Latin bilingual edition, good translations and notes
>>terrible community of learners
I agree, imagine not knowing how to convert html/plain text to epub

>>25571487
>non even a skill issue, just not an issue
it's an issue for me
>annasarchive, libgen, welib, zlibrary etc + laser printer, voilà book for 5 bucks (printer priced in)
I hate reading on a computer screen and one does not simply print a book like that
>you do (in Italy) (and therefore in any eurocunt) (usanians aren't human so non issue)
I don't know what you're talking about
>10 or 15€ any Italian-Latin bilingual edition, good translations and notes
I don't want or need the translation, I also don't know Italian (but would like to learn it in the future), so the notes would be useless for me
>I agree, imagine not knowing how to convert html/plain text to epub
a lot more than that goes into making a good epub

>>25571509
>one does not simply print a book like that
yes you do, i just printed one two days ago, use something like scantailor to center pages etc
>a lot more than that goes into making a good epub
a couple of shell commands?
>no cheap paperbacks
>no not like that
are you on your period? >mfw thinking of you hurting

most modern edition in shadow libraries are proper pdfs, not scans, I bet you can read them directly in you ereader without, again, any issue
>inb4 muh k*ndle doesn't allow me to read muh evil pirated bookerinos
cuck

>>25571532
>yes you do, i just printed one two days ago, use something like scantailor to center pages etc
you need to bind books, make proper covers, at that point you might as well just use a print on demand service, but they wouldn't really like to print a pirated copy. Also, if you're not using a pirated copy, you will need to use some kind of publishing software to make it look good, then proofread and compare it with the original text. I'm sorry, but this is an unreasonable amount of work
>a couple of shell commands?
you don't know anything about book publishing
>are you on your period? >mfw thinking of you hurting
just lol
>most modern edition in shadow libraries are proper pdfs, not scans, I bet you can read them directly in you ereader without, again, any issue
I don't want to suffer vero being uero, uerso and similar stuff. It's distracting and introduces ambiguity

I fucking forgot about delphi classics, well formated ebooks of latin and greek works. There you go, you can even find them in the fucking OP, you don't even have to buy them you cheap lazy nagger.

>>25571541
I hope you're trolling, if not seek professional help, anon

>>25571563
keep being fine with low quality texts I guess

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>>25571442
>>no ebooks
Patently untrue

>>the best possible reading experience is paying 30 € for a Loeb, half of which consists of a bad translation which you don't need
i like loebs but also i like non golden-silver age authors and there’s way more good editions of stuff like the Bible or the Latin fathers (patralogia latina is goated) and someone just posted a database of like 5,000 pages of critical editions of humanist latin above.

>>terrible community of learners
Wholeheartedly agree.

For Greek in particular, I was thinking of scavenging as many firmin-didot graece-latine books or at least .pdfs as I can. Also there’s a novum testamentum graece-latine critical edition (and the monolingual one for each language).

>I don't think anything will change for the better as the Classics are a dying field
Classics finally giving up the ghost is exactly why things will change for the better.

>and nobody actually thinks people learn Latin to read books
Why learn languages at all if your only goal is what people who don’t know the languages think

>>25571541
>I don't want to suffer vero being uero, uerso and similar stuff.
Get a grip バカ

I can't read Plautus or Terence because they didn't know to spell correctly. I refuse to read Virgil because he didn't know how to pronounce illíus. Finally I refuse to read books that confuse -ii and -i. (No, I won't specify. If you'd paid attention in school, you'd know.)

>>25571691
>No, I won't specify. If you'd paid attention in school, you'd know
You jest but the majority of the arguments on here are just one side smugly implying they're competent or credentialed while calling their interlocutor an idiot while simultaneously never substantiating any of their claims or making a single argument.

But yes anon is wrong.

>>25571691
based
>I can't read Plautus or Terence because they didn't know to spell correctly.
uo instead of uu uolgus extinguont etc, not written geminated last consonants miless corr etc, geminated s caussa etc, me te se but read as med ted sed etc
>I refuse to read Virgil because he didn't know how to pronounce illíus.
short i instead of long
>Finally I refuse to read books that confuse -ii and -i.
Genitive of -ius
>(No, I won't specify. If you'd paid attention in school, you'd know.)
what did I won
you forgot iīs īs eīs btw

>>25571715
idiota es. ego peritvs
vide litteram v pro u poni, qvod indicat vastam ervditionem meam

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ὢ πόποι, ἦ μάλα δὴ Λατινίζοντες μαίνονται
οἱ δὲ τῶν ἐνθάδε πολὺν ἤδη χρόνον φοιτηταὶ μέμνηνται ἴσως πρωταγγέλου τινὸς ὅς δυοῖν ἢ πλειόνων ἐτῶν πρὸ τοῦδέ ποτε μετέβαλεν τὸ ἄνω σχῆμα τὸ δεσμοὺς δεικνύμενον τῶν καθαιρετῶν βιβλίων ἐκ Λατινιστὶ εἰς Ἑλληνιστὶ γεγραμμένον διὰ τὸν ἐν τῷ προτέρῳ νήματι ταραχοποιὸν τρόπον τῶν Λατινιζόντων
γέλωτα παρέσχεν μοι καὶ ὑμῖν λόγον τοῦ Ἑλληνιστὶ γεγράφθαι τὸ OP

>>25570487
You know what? You are right. There are a lot of dudes like that.
But this one at least didn't intentionally used unorthodox spelling to confuse novice learners, like people who write "seruus, maxume, equos" instead of "servus, maxime, equus".
Yes I know those spellings are valid, but you know what I mean.

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>>25571541
>you need to bind books, make proper covers, at that point you might as well just use a print on demand service, but they wouldn't really like to print a pirated copy.
Do you have any idea the sheer amount of public domain editions of Latin texts there are?

latin (and greek) fags be like
>lemme write an entire paragraph without using a single punctuation mark that's how the ancients wrote spaces lower-case? why yes of course I use those
why do grecolatinfags write like this?

i don't know but if any language should be allowed to not use a single punctuation mark, it's latin

>>25572339
Actually punctiation is least necessary in highly analytic languages precisely because the boundaries of clauses are clearly indicated by word order since the semantic role of a given word in an analytic language is simply defined based on its position within the word order thereby removing the need for any punctuation It just happens to look ugly to us since it is something that we aren’t used to In a more synthetic language like latin with freer word order the boundaries between clauses can take an inordinate amount of time to untangle not least because authors purposely play with the concept of what a clause even is in Latin and therefore lack of decent punctuation substantially impacts the ability to read a previously unseen text for a reader so it ought to be attempted even if various editions will have varying punctuation of mixed quality.

>>25572379
you probably make some good points, which i'm not focusing on because you've drawn my attention to the capitalizations you made after 'It' and 'In' where there'd be periods

>>25571691
That Herodotus guy also sucks. He can't spell at all. They really should have taught these guys the alphabet better.

>>25571877
archaizing spelling, "architecturally complex" word order, no punctuation, made-up idioms, all affections and stratagems to obscure, through a lack of clarity, a lack of content.

Have you read 1,000 pages of non-pedagogical material in your language not counting rereading?

I hadn’t started reading real Latin outside of my textbooks until my second year of study. Now at about 2 years total of study, I’ve read around 1,250-1,500 pages of unadapted Latin.

I just finished the Gesta Francorum, which had been sitting on my shelf half-read for a long time, finally yesterday, and am on the verge of finishing De Bello Gallico, since I’m through all the Caesarian material and halfway into Hirtius’s book. The new testament was a big contributor to the pagecount since I’ve read the whole thing aside from a few of the epistles.

>>25573839
I'd say so

I'm sure this has been asked many times before. What exactly is denoted by the suffix -io? My lexicon says it expresses a profession when attached to a noun. Example libellus to libellio would be book to book seller. Seems to me like there is some wiggle room there. Could this also translate to librarian?

>>25574151
I don’t have time to give a more thoughtful or even researched response, but off the top of my head English is the exception in using Liber for Library while in Latin and in Romance it comes from a greek loanword and is “bibliotheca” so something like “bibliothecarius” would be librarian.

>>25574151
it does seem like there is a rather poorly productive masculine third declension -io forming few agent nouns from other nouns, most -io you'll encounter though are going to be feminine abstract nouns, those are much more numerous
here are some others I found looking in lewis and short in txt format(because I can't find a decent online dictionary that allows to do this kind of search easily i.e find specific types of third declension nouns that are also masculine)
coarmio, coarmionis
gubernio, ....
homuncio, ...(this seems specifically to have a negative connotation like homunculus)
longurio, ...
lucrio, ...
ludio, ...
mulio, ...

>>25574215
>agent nouns
*not just agent but more general as well

>>25574215
Aren’t the feminine abstract ones more specifically -tio?

>>25574233
true you're correct I got it confused with another rare io

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Every once in a while I consider patronizing these people lest the publication of new editions die out and every time I’m instantly reminded why academics should be shot out of a giant daredevil cannon into the Sun.

Why are capitalization rules in Greek so retarded? Sentences starting with lowercase, but names being capitalized, despite actual Ancient Greeks mostly writing in all-uppercase and lowercase being just a script version used for fast business bullshit and such

>>25574469
I think capitalization only for proper nouns is a good compromise, honestly. Though you sometimes get strange instances in Greek where compound nouns or adjectives are formed using a proper name and editors don't agree whether the element derived from a proper name should remain capitalized or not.

>>25574547
It would be smarter to capitalize the entire word, like the Japanese use the katakana. Uppercase-first-letter-only is really anachronistic. Compromise is not really the thing to optimize for here too.

>>25574557
>It would be smarter to capitalize the entire word
How do you figure? If the goal is comfort for modern readers then wouldn't it make sense to conform to modern orthographic conventions?

>>25572339
Most languages didn't use any punctuation at all until quite recently. When it comes to Latin, punctuation is more of a courtesy towards the reader, not different from dividing a text into paragraphs etc.

>>25574292
By academics you surely intend am*zon (re)sellers and the retards who buy there, right?

>>25574576
nah, we should only read handwritten texts with reed pens on papyrus, no spaces all caps, and of course don't even mention that demonic spawn of the Whore of Modernity known as codex, scrolls only or fuck off.

>>25575002
Exactly. That $498 price tag oncludes the sucker's markup. If you buy directly from the publisher, the book can be had for the low, low price of only $475.

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/albert-of-aachen-historia-ierosolimitana-history-of-the-journey-to-jerusalem-9780199204861?prevNumResPerPage=20&prevSortField=8&sortField=1&resultsPerPage=20&start=0&lang=en&cc=us

>>25574576
>conform to modern orthographic conventions
Why not capitalize the first word of the sentence and use ? instead of ; then?

>>25575134
Honest question, who is this even for? I brought >>25558146 for €65 the other day, and I thought it was comparatively expensive due to the small audience a book like that has outside academia, but
for ~€500 who can possibly buy it besides university libraries?

>>25559371
>After you receive it, could you scan it and upload somewhere?
Sorry, I had forgotten to reply. I'd like to scan it eventually, but it will have to be with my phone, because I don't want to ruin my nice hardcover by jamming it in a flatbad scanner. If and when I do so I will post about it here.

>>25575356
just universities

>>25575431
Then I would hardly feel bad about pirating it.

>>25575356
There’s your answer, university libraries. That’s pretty much it. It’s a vicious cycle in classics where cloistering leads to it shrinking which leads to further cloistering which is why the field is so small today.

>>25575234
Because the punctuation in most texts is editorial and conjectural. By capitalizing only proper names, the text becomes more legible and is subject to less alteration.
>? instead of ;
Because that is punctuation found in the some of the texts themselves (though not always)

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I love how these 16th century niggas be writing n sheit

>>25576173
That's a pleasing excerpt
>rex captivus in triumpho duceretur
I've always found it interesting how early modern writers continue to use terminology that wouldn't be out of place in the context of classical antiquity. Even when I look at Latin dedications on old buildings made in the early modern period, I see contemporary offices described by classical terms for magistracies

>>25576207
We ascribe specialized meanings to these terms because we don’t grow up using Latin to describe real life, so they take on a hyper specific Roman meaning in our minds and we’re shocked when Caesar/Imperator consults with his Senate in the Curia about where to send his Exercitum

>Nam apud Germanos wallsman significatur peregrinus, incola, hospes, advena homo, hoc est, qui aliam Germanis habeat linguam. Wall enim eorum lingua vocatur externus, qualis est Italus vel Gallus, qui lingua differunt a Germanis. Man vero homo nuncupatur. Angli igitur, Germaniae populi Britannia potiti, Britannos qui ex eo patriae excidio evaserant patrio more appellarunt Wallos, quod aliam ac ipsi haberent linguam, et ipsam terram quam habitabant Walliam, quod nomen deinde tam genti quam terrae remansit. Ita Britanni cum regno nomen amiserunt. Haec est vera Wallici nominis ratio et origio, quam ante me, quod sciam, nemo homo comperit.
Funny to just find the discovery of the roughly modern etymology of the term Welshman while reading this history of Britain.

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In case I can't post it for the next thread. Here's a new rolltable I made. A couple of the entries are just in English (usually with latin interspersed in the text) so just go one over if you roll one.

What's the best (modern) biography of Cn. Pompeius?

>>25576581
voveo me fortunae

>>25577082
>Periandrum Iohannis Sandsburensis
Num eorum quos anglice modo scriptos autumasti libros fortuna mihi commendat? Non invenio latinam versionem.
Rogem rursum? Rogem. >>25576581

>>25577090
Idk if I had to guess probably 5-10 of the ~270 entries are. If you roll one just let me know and I’ll mark it on an updated version.

Okay i was working through some of them and I’m going to change my estimate to about 10% of the entries. I’ll update it later.

>>25577090
>Iohannis Stradlingi Epigrammata
gavisus sum legens paucis horum, nonnulla risum movere
>Multa loqui, tacuisse parum, muliebria cum sint
>Crimina, foemineus multus in orbe vir est.
duo milia fere plus minusve annorum post Sophoclen illum nihil sub sole novi
>γύναι γυναιξὶ κόσμον ἡ σιγὴ φέρει

Placet illi nescio qua de causa "charus" loco "carus" scribere, homini profecto gnaro litteris Latinis Graecisque, fortasse fugit me ratio simplex

"Contentio pictoris et medici" palma donem.

>>25577121
So far just the Periander of John Sandsbury

>>25577169
I notice there’s a decent amount of divergent spelling in that era even with everyone trying their best to be classical. Also certain works like Christopher Columbus’s letters seem to use prefixes much more freely and frequently to modify verbs.

>>25576510
"Welsh" is also related to names like Gaul, Wallachia, and Cornwall. The fact that it meant "foreigner" - especially in the context of Britain - reminds me of a professor of Native American languages at my old (American) university, who complained that he was part of the Foreign Languages department lol

>>25577241
How is it related to gaul?
One thing Polydore Vergil notes is that he heard an ancient name for Cornwall was basically “Cornugallia” because of its jutting shape and that by tradition it’s the original landing site of the Armorican Gauls that became the Britons. But idk if that theory is still valid today.

I did know about Wales being the same etymology as places like Wallachia though.

>>25577169
>Placet illi nescio qua de causa "charus" loco "carus" scribere, homini profecto gnaro litteris Latinis Graecisque, fortasse fugit me ratio simplex
perhaps in his time the scholarship around manuscript traditions and spelling conventions simply hadn’t caught every term yet.

>>25577258
>How is it related to gaul?
Borrowed from French Gaule (“Gaul”), from Middle French Gaule (“Gaul”), from Old French Gaule, Waulle (“Gaul”, a term used to translate unrelated Latin Gallia (“Gaul”)), from Frankish *Walha(land) (“Gaul, Land of the Romans, foreigners”), from Proto-West Germanic *walh (“foreigner, Roman, Celt”), from Proto-Germanic *walhaz (“an outlander, foreigner, Celt”), probably of Celtic origin, from the same source as Latin Volcae (name of a Celtic tribe in South Germany, which later emigrated to Gaul).

>One thing Polydore Vergil notes is that he heard an ancient name for Cornwall was basically “Cornugallia” because of its jutting shape and that by tradition it’s the original landing site of the Armorican Gauls that became the Britons. But idk if that theory is still valid today.
Yeah, Cornwall is essentially "Horn-Wales" (or "Horn-Gaul," if you prefer)

>>25577275
>Borrowed from French Gaule (“Gaul”), from Middle French Gaule (“Gaul”), from Old French Gaule, Waulle (“Gaul”, a term used to translate unrelated Latin Gallia (“Gaul”)), from Frankish *Walha(land) (“Gaul, Land of the Romans, foreigners”), from Proto-West Germanic *walh (“foreigner, Roman, Celt”), from Proto-Germanic *walhaz (“an outlander, foreigner, Celt”), probably of Celtic origin, from the same source as Latin Volcae (name of a Celtic tribe in South Germany, which later emigrated to Gaul).
Very cool. Funny to realize that in a distant way Wales is still called Gaul in English. IIRC it’s more explicitly called something gallic in French.

One thing that always interested me is the Goidelic Brythonic distinction, i.e. that the former have been in Britain longer and the latter came from Iron-Age Gaul as tradition also states. But Polydore Vergil seems to sort of imply a further division between the gauls of cornwall/britanny vs the welsh almost seeming to imply that they have a different origin (which seems erroneous). I think I’m just reading into something he’s not actually trying to say though.

Olim quidam ianitor audiebat pulsationem. Aperuit ianuam, viditque solam cochleam stantem ad portam. Cum cognosceret pulsatorem cochleam esse, ianitor mediam arripit cochleam elatamque e domo in inferiorem partem per gradus deiecit.

Tribus post annis, ianitor rursus aliquem ianuam pulsantem audivit. Ianua aperta, inventum est eandem cochleam revenisse. Tum magna voce cochlea, "Quid hoc," inquit, "rei est!?"

>>25577872
Valde surrisi

Words can’t express the constant seesaw of emotions between the joy being able to crack open a major medieval/renaissance history and read 20 chapters with like 1-2 unknown words per chapter and the sorrow of my brain melting trying to read classical authors. I’m at a threshold stage where I’m painfully aware at once of how close I am to being able to read clearly and how far I am from being able to read confidently.

>>25577872
>Ianitor
>Gratis agit
>Nulla pecuniaria compensatione
>veri simile cinaedus

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>>25547983
ἄλλο τι

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>>25579024
>Galen on Sperm
talk about being methodical and scientific ante litteram, don't trust the mere opinion of those who said to have assisted to copulation of animals, watch horses, asses and sheep carefully yourself to see when they eject the sperm and when not and whether they get pregnant, nonchalantly ask women about it and what they feel their uterus after receiving the sperm, and then dissect animals to look at the uterus directly, then check all that has been written by doctors and look for confirmation

>>25579124
>nonchalantly ask women about it and what they feel their uterus after receiving the sperm

>>25579135
apparently they feel it
>κινήσεως γάρ τινος ἔφασαν αἰσθάνεσθαι κατὰ τὴν μήτραν, οἷον σπωμένης τε καὶ κατὰ βραχὺ συνιούσης εἰς ἑαυτὴν, ἐπειδὰν συλλαμβάνωσι τὸ σπέρμα

I'm curious what you all think of the theory that the entire Bible was originally written in Greek before being translated to Hebrew. I was introduced to this idea through this video: https://youtu.be/kzhWUUUXSa0
After doing a bit more digging, I discovered that this Ammon Hillman has a surprisingly large and militant group of supporters.

Aren't Erasmus's colloquia familiaria supposed to be (at least in their initial part) teaching material? I can barely get through them, even with a dictionary.

>>25579228
The New Testament was indeed written entirely in Greek (of various quality), because it was the Hellenic times. The Old Testament was written and read by Jews hundreds of years ago before the Hellenic era, so there's no reason to believe why it should be written in Greek.

>>25579270
>The Old Testament was written and read by Jews hundreds of years ago before the Hellenic era, so there's no reason to believe why it should be written in Greek.
Yeah, that's the scholarly consensus, and it is what Ammon disputes. I personally think the idea is crazy, but I wanted to hear what others here had to say because I now recall hearing sentiments similar to Ammon's echoed by users on this site.

>>25579274
Honestly I'm not even going to watch because it's such a stupid notion on its face, unless you can summarize the arguments and sell it to me.

>>25579228
nah the Greek itself bears the mark of its GSL composers, down to weird attempts at imitating grammatical features of the original language that sound silly in Greek, and that's without mention of the obvious elephant in the room, nouns/names that in Greek mean nothing

>>25549559
The notion of what we call a "memory palace" comes from Cicero talking about how he remembered his long ass speeches. I don't memorize poems but that's what Cicero would recommend.

>>25579277
>>25579279
I'm glad to see that you all have sense. There's a subreddit dedicated to Ammon's idea that's a good laugh. A lot of Christian users on X echo similar ideas because they think it gives them a better claim to the Old Testament than Jewish people.