What other /m/'s are like the 08th MS Team?People break their arms jerking it off as 'the most realistic depiction of gundam' and such but I really enjoyed the down and dirty grunt perspective of it. There other series that go for that angle rather than the typical young autist MC?
>>23463211
>>23463211>most realistic depiction of gundamHey remember when Shiro dodged a zaku machine gun at point blank range
dorvack
>>23463328Let it go man, they already apologized for that.F91shellcasing.webm was his daughter
>>23463328Hes just that cool okayBut honestly speaking I think a lot of the polarization around 08th MS Team comes from the OVA advertising itself as somewhat realistic while also being about one of the more hot blooded and idealistic Gundam protagonists surviving absurdly dangerous battles through guts and luck, which contrasts or even clashes with the aesthetic.
>>23463712And it’s okay for characters like Michel and Eledore to be retarded so long as they’re technically adults. Even the White Base kids were more useful than them.
>>23463729They were more or less fine. Eledore does an okay job as support and Michel is simply meant to be someone not cut out for war. I only remember finding them annoying in the one episode where they get captured together. The rest is ok since one aspect of 08th MS Team 'realism' was showing Shiro trying to manage the morale of his squad as the leader.
>>23463211None other exist
>>23463743Really? I liked that episode
>>23463211Logh, you see everyone from the emperor to line soldiers and all the in-between
>>23463712At this point I think it's more a conditioned overreaction brought on by an annoying type of fan, that everyone is now stuck with.
Shiro is a bit too idealistic and naive for leading a unit. Especially after he is investigated for treason.Romance is nice, even if a bit clichéd. It pays nice homage to the Newtypes.I loved 08th MS. It's by far my favourite of the OVA trio. However, the stuff I see people talk about it has just not been my experience. It's like people watch ez8 vs gouf on youtube and project that onto the whole show.Good show, retarded fanbase.
>>23463211RfV and Hardgraph Iron Mustang.
>>23463211>off as 'the most realistic depiction of gundam'no
>>23463712People who criticize 08th MS Team are like the people who trumpet how DCS is super-realistic and any other flight game is just an arcade game that shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as their treasured super-realistic flight sim. They're spergs who think shit brown and insta-death are the hallmarks of realism, and that everyone in a "realistic" story should suffer and kill themselves at the end because war is hell donchaknow.
>>23465483>and that everyone in a "realistic" story should suffer and kill themselves at the end because war is hell donchaknow.This mostly comes from redditor Tominofags, they only need a chat with veterans or watch close range combat videos in Ukraine to realize how unrealistic their 'dark and realistic' anime portrays human emotions and behavior.
>>23465483>>23465581Which is weird because a lot of those mudcore grimdark dudes also think 08th is the only good one, but they'll tell you they don't focus on the story and skip the final episode.Basically the sort of guy whose only critique is that the rape and suicide is only in the book.
>>23463783This but unironically. There’s a reason people keep asking almost 30 years later.
>>234632110080 was pretty good, MS Igloo tried but the animation was wacky even for its time which kills the realism feel. Then MS Igloo II: Gravity Front went full retarded
>>23465483The DCSfags that try to have a one-sided war with Ace Combat absolutely send me. Putting aside that it's not most DCSfags, as is clear from the number of Strangereal liveries, recreations of missions and AC-inspired campaigns people have made for it, they seem to be entirely focused on jerking themselves off for enjoying something trying to be realistic, and unable to understand that nobody playing Ace Combat somehow got lost on the way to a serious sim and thinks they're playing the cutting edge of flight modelling.
>>23465928>but they'll tell you they don't focus on the story and skip the final episode.For me the greatest thing in 08th is the story and the final episode it's among the best endings ever.
>>23465483>>23466602I'm just glad that in Ace Combat, Bandai Namco didn't get into a tiff with one of the developers and have them never work on the Strike Eagle ever again, leaving it to be abandoned forever. It's sad when even fucking War Thunder has its act together better than DCS does.Oh great, now I'm fucking mad about video games... I mean, simulators.
>>2346663111 or 12 you mean?
>>23463211macross plusOrguss 02Armored Troopers Votoms Mellowlink>>23463328He's asking for well animated mecha with choreography that doesn't have psychics nor beam spam. I love newtypes and beam spam, but less of them makes it more powerful.
>>23463211>https://youtu.be/FZUoslVA4T8?si=ADFfOL0FSJ_AaSKsStardust memories. Actual tactics, pilot skills and no newtype bullshit. The 1v1 between the GPO1 and GPO2 is some of the best mecha on mecha fights ever.
>>23471733>Actual tactics, pilot skills and no newtype bullshitIf these elements are what gives you utter dogshit like 0083, maybe those things aren't good.
>>23465928a lot of it is cartoon network nostalgia, that's because toonami didn't air the final episode so it unintentionally made their sacrifice feel impactful
>>23471785i love newtypes and space magic, but it is fair that people want grittier or creative choreography. i really liked that Char used the sun to blind Amuro in 0079
>>23471785Maybe your opinion is just wrong and you have godawful taste in mecha.
>>23466009The first 2 eps were extremely forgettable but goddamn I love that Guntank from the 3rdHonestly with the tone they tried for the first ep should've really been about the first ever instance of the EDF running into an MS (on Earth I guess since the actual first time was in space, they could just do the typical "those things are just a rumor" shtick). Build up some "ace" fighter or Type 61 pilot for 25 minutes just for him to get stepped on or swatted abruptly
>>23463712I think the people who love 8th ms team just want creative mecha fight choreography from grunt soldiers. It was really awesome how Shiro used his environment to his advantage instead of being strongly carried by his tech or genetics. I was rooting for that lone jegan soldier in Unicorn
>>23463211fang of the sun dougram, the star troopers cgi cartoon
>>2347084812
>>23472084>I think the people who love 8th ms team just want creative mecha fight choreography from grunt soldiersIf you're a main character, you're not a grunt. It's not like Shiro's level of tactics was anything different from what you could find in a Tomino show. People really only care about 08th MS Team for its aesthetic.
>>23472467>It's not like Shiro's level of tactics was anything different from what you could find in a Tomino showIt’s much more well animated and happens way more frequently per episode.
>>23472467>If you're a main character, you're not a grunt.You could still be main character and just die at the end of the episode.
>>23465483I don't dislike 08th ms for being unrealistic, I disliked it for being hyped as this super realistic gundam when it's just as absurd as the rest of them. Just say you liked more physical robot fights and I'll agree.
>>23463211Full Metal Panic and Macross
>>23471872Problem is, the writing quality is generally gonna be about the same. 90% of gritty tactics fiction you might read is extremely basic ambushes that the enemy will walk directly into. Like directly on the one spot that does the most possible damage to them.Ambush is a magical word like newtype that lets you win against whatever the writer wants you to. Either you turn super saiyan and energy beam them to death or you just put down some explosives and a camo net and the enemy will blunder into it every time.You can see this directly play out in 08th where shiro almost has precognitive powers and superhuman abilities and even his suits gain total bullet resistance whenever needed and everyone claps just because they don't ever say he's a newtype. Would he be any less ridiculous if he was?
>>23473031Its been a while since I watched 08th MS Team but hats your standard for well written tactics in fiction? Getting a pincer attack on your enemy is like one of the main ways to gain an advantage and ambushes are one of the main ways to achieve it, especially in something like 08th MS Team with its jungle setting encouraging guerilla tactics and the small MS squads that get deployed there. Its not the kind of setting where youll get to see Shiro break the 8 gates formation.
>>23471785Have you thought about killing yourself? You should
>>23472837>>23472467>>23473872It's not necessarily realistic, it just has more variety in its choreography than newtype fights. With newtype fights from Zeta and ZZ, they just fire lasers before retreating or activating their beam saber if their weapon is blown up.Meanwhile, there's a lot of creative mecha fight choreography in 8th ms team. Shiro fights against a Zaku by binding himself around it, constraining it with his arm, and firing a turret at the head to blind the pilot to cover for his team member.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISfBFwACKFwI liked that Gquuux made a homage to it with Shiko.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-de0yqe2FDgAnyway, I felt that 8th MS team was a subversion (inversion?) of 0079. Zeon had the best overpowered tech and the Shiro's team had to improvise like Char did.
>>23474660It'd be more believable if any given scenario didn't also feature him doing completely improbable shit. They just didn't have to have his ball get squarely pelted with zaku machinegun fire. They didn't have to do that. It undermines any element of careful planning and daring-do if he fucking leaps around like dante and shoots grenades out of the air as well.>Zeon had the best overpowered tech and the Shiro's team had to improvise like Char didThey win fights repeatedly by just eating damage and counter attacking. Luna titanium has always been a hard carry technology.>>23473872Well isn't that the problem? It's basic. It's absolutely bare-minimum fundamentals, which makes it even weirder when any character suggesting it is treated like some tactical genius for it and the enemies also completely fail to recognize it.Ironically the newer segment where they get trapped on a bridge from support fire while the flight type keeps ducking under the bridge is a pretty solid. Sure it's another ambush, but it makes sense why they're in a predictable location, and the enemies are actually playing to their suits strengths in an unconventional way. It's fun.
Jfc, Is there something in the water that makes you guys just tune out during battles in Zeta and ZZ?Both shows use very complex staging and movements to create depth of field view during fights. There is so much variety during fights by use of colonies (inside and outside), space debris, buildings, forests, water, as backdrop. The desert arc of ZZ is just filled with insane maneuvers. All of this is combined with uses of various cut ins, panning shots, zoom ins, slow mos and psychedelic backgrounds to breathe life and kinetic energy into the fights. Does it always work? No, but I am tired of seeing so much stuff being reduced to 'beamspam lol'.
>>23474808>It's fun.except for shiro being completely fucking invulnerable to all gunfire
>>23463211Gundam Thunderbolt's Acguy jungle battle was more realistic than all of 08th MS team.08th MS Team was nothing but Zaku bullying for 10 episodes. The Gundams wetr immune to damage. Even Zeon artillery shells from base defense cannons did nothing. So stupid.
>>23476849Imagine when you find out that tanks and batteships can bounce or shatter shells.
>>23476849Of all the things to complain about, you pick a Zeon MG not doing anything an up-armoured machine built from parts of a machine already noted for being near impervious to Zeon's standard machine guns.
>>23476849I did mention that, I just consider it par for the course for 08th.>>23477357>>23477368I mean it clearly distracts a little from the heckin tactical gritty combat when it turns out he can tank the first hit from anything they can throw at him. He gets sprayed like 9 fucking times by that gun. The pilot should've just gotten the hint he wasn't gonna hurt him and just left.
>>23474808I honestly dont remember anyone praising Shiro for his tactical genius or something, the show really doesnt pretend that hes especially amazing in that regard, he just competent. All his teammates and Aina are only ever impressed by his boldness or recklessness, and maybe you were confusing that as them hyping him up?
>>23475125it has great animation (less great than OVAs), but it is not impressive because it is done by talented psychic kids with state of the art equipment it is like how you get more impressed from a grandpa doing skateboarding tricks than a xgames winner like tony hawk
>>23465483I don’t like 08th MS Team because it’s not realistic. I don’t like it because the writing is shit.
>>23474660>With newtype fights from Zeta and ZZ, they just fire lasers before retreating or activating their beam saber if their weapon is blown up.That has nothing to do with Newtypes and everything to do with the fact L-Gaim was 54 episodes of that same shit. Even tech from that show made its way into Zeta/ZZ in subtle and not so subtle ways.
>>23481234>it has great animation (less great than OVAs), but it is not impressive because it is done by talented psychic kids with state of the art equipmentYou're just a killjoy. Dragonar has all that minus the psychics and the fights are hype as fuck. And Tomino rarely ever shows the main characters thoroughly overpowering their foes even if they're in the most toyetic mecha. >it is like how you get more impressed from a grandpa doing skateboarding tricks than a xgames winner like tony hawkTony Hawk is nearly 60 years old now.
>>23476849One thing I don't get is Ex8's chest armor is supposed to be 2 zaku shields welded together, but I don't see it
>>23482038>Ex8's chest armor is supposed to be 2 zaku shields welded togetherI call bullshit, it's supposed to be armored with luna titanium.
>>23482038>>23482320I think that's just the result of someone after the fact trying to explain just how they field-upgraded a mobile suit so heavily. The name is an obvious nod to a Sherman variant and the explanation of a field modification is probably drawing from how many one-off modifications tankers made to try and improve their chances during the second world war, but the machine itself doesn't actually look like they just added some bits onto an existing Ground Gundam, so I think the 'uh it's Zaku parts' is supposed to at least explain the quantity of material in use.One person wrote that it's a field one-off, then someone else wrote that Zaku bits were involved, neither was looking too closely at the actual design at the time.
>>23486018Im inclined to agree, I think its much like Ground Gundam, they wanted to have Gundams and then an upgrade first and thought about the setting for the suits later which results in the explanations being somewhat of a stretch.
>>23486990The Ground Gundam itself at least makes a bit more sense in that it's a low production vehicle used to salvage parts from one project and test ideas for another.Not quite the same but the example from WW2 that comes to mind is the Elefant. Porsche had been so confident their design for the Tiger would be produced that they'd actually tooled up and begun producing hulls, only for the competing design to be greenlit. Since this is Nazi Germany in 1943, you absolutely fucking could not afford to waste 90 hulls, so they were reworked into a heavy tank destroyer instead.The idea of the RX-79G originating from similar thinking with components for the RX-78 that were either failed QC or were redesigned isn't too far out there.Certainly as far as excuses to shove extra Gundams into the OYW go, the Ground Gundams and the Alex are the two best.
>>23489465The problem with your argument is that the Elefants were horrible tanks in real life.Meanwhile The Ground Gundams are portrayed as awesome. Not a single indication is given or hinted that the Ground Gundams use shitty failed parts or leftover parts. Nope the characters talk about how awesome the Ground Gundam suits are, and smash Zakus and Doms for 13 episodes.
>>23490054How is that a problem? I'm not saying it's a 1:1 comparison, just a convenient historical example of unused components being repurposed. The project being salvaged in the Elefant's case was ass, hence why it lost to the other design. It tracks that the rework would also be ass.>Not a single indication is given or hinted that the Ground Gundams use shitty failed parts or leftover partsIt's not mentioned that the EZ-8 is a field upgrade partially from salvaged Zaku parts either. We're talking wider lore. There's no reason that a project built from components intended for another task has to be ass, and it's reasonable to assume there's more room for tolerance stacking and other cut corners when space capabilities are completely stripped out.Speaking of, the 'Max mode' we see briefly used is explained as being an override on software limitations intended to protect the inconsistent part quality. Kind of like a button to switch an Airbus from normal to alternate flight law, except useful instead of just a way to put 200 other people in danger.Keep in mind we also see a Ground GM derived from the Ground Gundam. These machines still reflect an R&D program, not just reclaiming dead-end components.Like I said, it's far from the worst justification to stick more Gundams into the era and I like that it's a batch of them instead of a single unit, too.
>>23490054>The problem with your argument is that the Elefants were horrible tanks in real life.The M4 Firefly was more or less the same concept as the Elefant and the Ez-8, and ended up being awesome.
>>23490666I don't entirely agree, Satan. The Firefly was a new serial production turret and supporting modifications, whereas the Elefant was finding a use for a fixed number of existing half-built hulls and the EZ-8 is, in lore at least, an extensive field modification and repair without proper design or production support.You're correct about the more general point though, that just because something's a quick hack job to fill a need and make do with existing assets, it doesn't mean it's automatically ass.
>>23490314>It's not mentioned that the EZ-8 is a field upgrade partially from salvaged Zaku parts either.Because it's not. The databooks say the Ez8 surpasses the Ground Gundam in performance despite being a rebuilt in the field.
>>23494243How does that contradict what I said in any way?
I thought the Ez-8 used Ground GM parts for repairs? That's why its so beige. Not to mention lore wise it makes sense. They had plenty of spare Ground GM parts laying around since that suit was actually mass produced.
>>23494249But then why doesn't it look anything like a Ground GM? Either way you run into the issue of explaining how such wildly different parts got manufactured and fitted.
>>23494277Unless you're replacing entire sections of the body like how Karen's Gundam had a replacement GM head, you're not gonna see the GM parts on the inside. The GM parts are internal. The luna titanium armor on the exterior of the MS is fabricated in a workshop and can be any shape or color they want.
>>23494293Right so when people are talking about 'used Zaku parts' they don't mean it's internally an RX-79G-Zaku hybrid or something. They're referring to the explanation for the chest piece.The issue is less where the material came from and more how such a heavily altered design was both designed and fabricated from what was on hand at an FOB. Even well resourced maintenance we've seen in other shows is generally depicted as using a combination replacement components and smaller repairs, not fabricating entirely new exterior shells.This isn't some big takedown or anything, and I love the EZ-8 if this isn't clear from how much I've thought about it. It's just a spot where by trying to explain something, supplemental lore writers have accidentally introduced a new hiccup instead.
>>23494302Worth considering that said FOB is basically the largest facility we ever see anyone get maintained at, short of full bases like Jaburo or Luna 2. It's still something of a stretch, but much less of one than if the whole thing was tents and quonest huts.
>>23494302This is why supplemental lore is a treat and not a rule. If you like it, great, if you don't like, laugh it off and ignore it. If it's stupid and can't be justified then the EZ-8 is not made from zaku shields.
>>23494381True. A maintainance depot would be better equipped than most, and if written today you could probably excuse them having a giant CNC machine and maybe some capacity to 3D print some simpler components. Not exactly an industrial replicator but it'd do in a pinch.>>23494398Very true, and I don't think I ever indicated my view was otherwise. It's just interesting to discuss.
>>23490314The problem is Ez8 is a junky half baked field repair job with whatever leftover components and spare parts they could find in the hit and humid jungles of South East Asia. Ez8 wasn't exactly their finest work in a clean favtory with unlimited support. From what I can see it looks like they used leftover armor panels from Ground GMs and remodeled them onto a Gundam frame. Besides Anytime a vehicle gets trashed like that in real life, it's either scrapped, or the repair job leads to a very junky repair job with a short lifespan. Even Tanks that receive so many hits have to be retired due because of too much structural damage to the frame. And the Ground Gundam's limbs were ripped apart, it was slammed against a cliff wall, and dropped from the sky at terminal velocity. They should have retired the darn thing and given Shiro a reliable GM instead since the GMs were rolling off the assembly line by that point in the story. Maybe a brand new Sniper GM with higher performance would be best.
>>23494542Can we please decide which fucking mobile suit we're talking about? Because the initial response was to someone complaining about the performance of the Ground Gundams, not the EZ-8.
>>23477357>>23477368>Of all the things to complain about, you pick a Zeon MG not doing anything an up-armoured machine built from parts of a machine already noted for being near impervious to Zeon's standard machine guns.Idiot. That's an machine gun with armor piercing rounds that rips through Luna Titanium armor like paper. Norris used the same gub to destroy Guntanks that were made of Luna Titanium armor.I hate speed watchers like you.Idiot.
>>23494557you didn't tell him about the phase shift tipped rounds
>>23494557Or, maybe, it's loaded with something consistent with the on-screen performance and that has already been established as a flaw in Zeon's MS arms. I can't imagine their supply chain is looking particularly good at that point, and you'd probably go through the good stuff first or ration it out to units like Norris's.For that matter, we don't know how well protected MP Guntanks are. Even if we assume they were using the same load, there's only an outright contradiction if we're given reason to believe that the EZ-8's armor is no better than the mobile suit equivalent of a self-propelled gun. Material choice alone isn't the only factor.If you want to be mad that a tribute short made nearly two decades later for a BD collection has some slight inconsistencies then be my guest I suppose, but nothing about it is irreconcilable.
oh boy...it's this thread...AGAIN...
>>23494542>The problem is Ez8 is a junky half baked field repair jobI know I'm an old but even I remember when boomer sites like Newtype Asylum correctly identified everything that's superior about the Ez8 in terms of functionality and fitting the aesthetic they were going for with the setting. It swaps the V-fin for a regular antenna, armors up the chest and gets rid of the awkward titty gun in favor of proper anti-personnel turret, and generally does away with the obvious Gundam Leopard run off that was all over the pre-production design. It's an upgrade in the series and in a meta sense.
>>23494627I do really like that the chest gun is an obvious cookoff hazard for little real world use and it actually gets rectified when someone gives the suit a once-over. It makes sense as something they'd try to get some use out of extra space, too.
>>23494627>It's an upgrade in the series >and in a meta sense.The databooks say Ez-8 isn't even fully made of Luna Titanium. They didn't have enough spare parts, and used hardened steel over much of the suit instead. It's a hybrid of different weaker metals.
>>23477368That same machine gun destroyed Guntanks made of Luna Titanium armor. It shredded them. So bare minimum the Ez8 should suffer some damage - even with plot armor.
>>23494758You're late, see >>23494575
>>23494873So your argument is that they were using different bullets?
>>23494910Very good, now read the other two lines.
>>23494917There's indication they are using different bullets. There's not even a hint that Zeon even makes different bullets for the gun.
I like the idea that in order to solve the problem where a gun does different levels of damage in different scenes in a spinoff, we should just introduce that zeon has lunar-titanium piercing bullets. We can worry about whatever problems that causes later I guess.
>>23495148Problems? What problems? Supply issues are a fact, not a problem. Fact solved.
>>23495051There's also no indication that we should expect the EZ-8 to be as vulnerable as an MP Guntank but you've just glossed over that part.In fact, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the up-armored variant of the mobile suit sent to escort the artillery is probably better protected than the artillery.
>>23495148That's not even that weird, unless you want to make it explicitly 'anti-Gundam armor guns'. There's a reason that tanks fire APFSDS at other armoured vehicles and HE at buildings.
>>23495164>>23495236Yeah, literally every other gun in the OYW had the doodoo butt rounds that don't do anything, and norris got the good shit that kills things. It's a shame they only made so many of those bullets to kill like one guntank, and then he let himself die knowing they were too powerful to be used ever again.
>>23495257More to the point, there's just not a contradiction between 'can kill a MP Guncannon' and 'glances off the EZ-8'.Someone's saying they like apples and then someone else is saying that can't be true because they've never seen them eat an orange.
>>23495214Again, this is just speculation on your part. If you want to provide evidence that a Gun"TANK" (which theoretically should have even MORE armor than a mobile suit) has weaker armor than be my guest.
>>23495319We see it used as a self-propelled gun. It's the only thing we see it used as. Artillery is never as well protected as a frontline combatant.Honestly this part is way, way less of a leap.The recovery vehicle from the intro is based on an MP Gun"TANK" too, but for some reason I don't think the name bestows any magical properties on the vehicle.
>>23495319Name's carryover from the ridiculously armored prototype it's based on. Real tanks are vulnerable, too, when there's no infantry covering up for them. And huge treads with a very high profile don't offer enough mobility and stability for armored assaults anyway, hence MP Guntank being optimized for fire support use and not what would be the MBT of Mobile Suit warfare
>>23495334>It's the only thing we see it used as. Artillery is never as well protected as a frontline combatant. The Elefant you described would disagree with you. It had incredible armor (but a shitty engine and mobility). Most Elefants were lost on the battlefield due to breakdowns with the engine and needing to be abandoned by the crew. Not to enemy attacks. Those usually were stopped by the armor.
>>23495357>And huge treads with a very high profile don't offer enough mobility and stability for armored assaults anyway*laughs in guntank*
>>23495360The Elefant wasn't an SPG in the sense we're discussing here and you know it. An AS-90 or M109 isn't an MBT, it's just well protected enough for shrapnel and small arms in case of counter-battery or ambush.The MP Guntank is a new production vehicle, it's clearly not just retooled Guntanks.And we all know that Guntanks and anything else not a mobile suit takes a debuff to attack and defence against mobile suits when a named character isn't piloting it, don't be silly.
>>23495369>no high profile I predicted this post, Oldtype
>>23495408>implying Guntank isn't high profileLmao
>>23495548For weight distribution regarding mobility and stability - yes, it's not high profile in proportion Next time you're entering a pissing contest, don't forget to get your clothes out of the way.
>>23495564>doesnt know what high profile is>gets called out>muh weight distributionKekekeke
>>23495608>"maybe if I'm pedantic enough, I won't look fucking retarded anymore"
>>23495548low profile tanks are described to be low profile despite being higher profile than cars or skateboardsis your mind blown yet?
>>23495377>The MP Guntank is a new production vehicle, it's clearly not just retooled Guntanks. MP Guntanks are not purely for long artillery. They are fully capable of midrange combat too. In many ways, they are superior to the original Guntank. The databooks say MP Guntanks are revised Guntanks. They removed the core block system to allow for more armor, and for the ability to twist the waist section and aim backwards. The original Guntank could not turn the waist at all. It was stick aiming forward.
>>23495685so why the fuck isn't it armored with luna titanium?
>>23495690It's expensive ass to produce and repair and MP Guntanks are supposed to be protected by GM escorts anyway
>>23495690>so why the fuck isn't it armored with luna titanium?The MP Guntank? They are made of Luna Titanium.
>>23495685>The databookThe wiki, anon. The wiki.
>>23495685>MP Guntanks are not purely for long artillery. They are fully capable of midrange combat too.>In many ways, they are superior to the original GuntankAre they? Because the only thing we see is them act as artillery then get completely bodied by a single Gouf Custom, and be unable to stand up to fire that the EZ-8 fared much better against.Seems like your assertions from the wiki might be contradicting what we see on-screen, anon.
>>23496325You keep saying artillery artillery artillery You explain to me why the Feds even needed Guntanks as artillery when the Federation had pic related.
>>23496311Eww. Your a Gundam wiki editor. Gross. >>23496325>bodied by a single Gouf CustomNibba that was Norris Packard. Show Respect and shut your mouth.
>>23496345Presumably because different sized assets exist for all sorts of things in both real life and fiction, anon. Please don't make me explain the concept of tactical and strategic assets, integration at different levels of force structures, all that stuff.By the same token, you explain to me why they needed them as anything else. Ground Gundams and GMs are more mobile, demonstrably hardier and able to use a wide variety of equipment. We see them with a range of hardware for short, medium and extended range direct fire engagements, with the latter notably their weakest. If the MP Guntank is as good or better, on top of clearly being a significantly simpler construction, we would presumably see more of the things in literally any other role.The other reason of course, is because the writers and directors wanted an urban fight and needed an asset that both did a job the Gundams weren't suited to and also could fit the hit-and-run tactics Norris was using to outmaneuver the team. A land battleship would raise problems for the fight they wanted.>>23496347>Eww. Your a Gundam wiki editor. Gross.Not really sure how you understood that as me saying it was a good thing, or that I'm a fan of the wiki.>>23495648Yeah, but there's not a whole lower profile class of vehicle that does what a low profile tank does from a lower profile again. If you wanted a low profile, tracked, turreted vehicle in the OYW you'd just use an actual tank.
>>23496381>If you wanted a low profile, tracked, turreted vehicle in the OYW you'd just use an actual tank.These begin to show some impotence even against Zakus. You certainly wouldn't be able to use them as an armored assault spearhead like you'd use IGLOO Guntanks or Hildorfs, even if you consider that such assaults without melee capabilities are rather suicidal and require melee capable unit close support
>>23496418That's true but that's also when you get into the debuff anything not called a mobile suit has against anything called a mobile suit.I'm sure if they reclassified the M61 as the RGM-61 it'd suddenly start holding its own.
>>23496422Just make a Mobile Armor tank. MA always just werks.
>>23463328Forget the rounds, the overpressure of a large-caliber gun firing that close would be pretty close to lethal
>>23495275Could just leave it at "the armor probably sucked" not "he must've had extra special bullets!". Never mind that if they gave it lunar titanium they clearly wanted to splurge on making it tough.
>>23496347>Show Respect and shut your mouthThis isn't youtube.
>>23496777Hence why I said that the second one isn't my preferred explanation.>Never mind that if they gave it lunar titanium they clearly wanted to splurge on making it tough.Or it's what they had available for a low run vehicle. And/or it allowed better protection within the limited weight they'd allowed for armour.Please for the love of fuck don't try and play dumb and act like you can tell protection level from just material choice, never mind why all of a sudden secondary lore is fine for justifying a criticism that's reasonable with the context of what's seen on-screen. Pick a fucking lane.
>>23496381This isn't theoretical. We literally see the Big Tray class on the battlefield in the anime.
>>23496809When has the "thickness" of luna titanium ever mattered? Plus If anything the thickness of Luna titanium would be thicker on big boy Guntank than on the smaller mobile suits.
>>23497153>When has the "thickness" of luna titanium ever mattered?So we're just tossing out all possible logic or connection to reality unless explicitly outlined somewhere?Are you suggesting that in Universal Century, the Earth Federation made an infinitely strong material at any thickness and the only impact it had on the setting is they sometimes put it on robots? Because that's what you're suggesting if we're tossing out the entire concept of armour as it exists today.Amuro should get a refund on the RX-78-2, clearly it was faulty if the Zeong was able to rip it apart.>Plus If anything the thickness of Luna titanium would be thicker on big boy Guntank than on the smaller mobile suitsUnless, of course, it's not meant to get shot because it's an artillery vehicle and they wanted the weight/space savings.If you want to dig around in supplemental lore about armor compounds someone else wrote about to be mad about a clip from a 2013 short, I can absolutely fucking point out that material choice isn't the only factor in anything.
>>23496809Buddy I don't think they're wasting lunar titanium just because of some entirely made up on the spot fan justification. I think the famously pretty inconsistent show is just being inconsistent again.Don't work yourself up into a lather trying to come up lore bandaids for something they probably just didn't think much about. The gouf can stab guntanks to death with it's oddly inactivate heat sword and it spurts oil-blood, because the animator thought it looked cool.
>>23497291Believe it or not I agree.If I'm making any point here it's that putting stock in secondary material over what you see on-screen and using it to justify being mad about what's on-screen is fucking dumb, because it opens all this shit up.Someone can't 'um ackshually' some some shit from a high grade manual and be surprised when people follow things to their logical conclusion in a way they don't like.I really hate this kind of fan that's way more invested in what some wiki editor decided is canon from an old magazine article, a translated rumour and an unfinished manga over the actual damn shows and their clear on-screen intent. It's not just a Gundam or mecha thing.
>>23497269>Unless, of course, it's not meant to get shot because it's an artillery vehicle and they wanted the weight/space savings. 1. If it were a pure artillery unit like you suggest, then they wouldn't give MP Guntank arms with close to mid range guns.2. MP Guntank is *significantly* heavier than Gundam. It's 20 tons heavier with thicker armor. >So we're just tossing out all possible logic or connection to reality unless explicitly outlined somewhere? No. I'm pointing out that if we use your logic, then it actually help my (and the apparently two other anons debating with you) argument. The luna titanium would be thicker on Guntank due to weight and obvious visual differences in thickness of armor. The Guntank has massive slabs of luna titanium armor on it.
>>23497329Well the first one just isn't true. All sorts of vehicles not meant to get up close still have weapons for close-in protection.Second is just your speculation about how the thing's built, which is the entire thing being argued. If it's so much better protected, how come the Gouf Custom's sword can punch through one, but just dents the EZ-8's arm and fucks up the internals with blunt force? It's almost like in the damn episode we see one's better protected than the other.
>>23497342>just your speculationBased on what I've read in the thread, the only one here making speculation is you. Let's actually review the timeline here. 1. Anons complained about Ez-8 not taking any damage from repeated hits from a 75mm gatling gun. 2. You said the gatling gun can't harm Luna Titanium. 3. One anon pointed out the inconsistency since the MP Guntanks are also made of thick Luna Titanium and got destroyed by the very same gatling gun model. 4. Rather just admitting you are wrong and Gundam made a mistake, instead you get triggered and rant about Luna Titanium bullets and Luna Titanium thickness without any proof. Just mere speculation. 5. You continue to argue and speculate even more. Then demand other anons use facts to disprove your speculation. 6. If they manage to do so, you change the goal posts and make up new speculation. That's NOT how debates work. The person who makes the claim has to present some sort of evidence. Which you have not done at all. You made the claim the gatling gun can't harm Luna Titanium. You got proven wrong by someone else. So just admit you were wrong and stop being stubborn.
>>23497367The basic case is just that the EZ-8 is better protected than the MP Guntanks, which I think is reasonable from what we see. Twice we see a weapon that destroys a Guntank not destroy the EZ-8. Once in the original OVA, and once in the clip anon was complaining about.I don't care what external lore says, because that's always been secondary to what's on-screen, especially if it contradicts it.
>>23497342>how come the Gouf Custom's sword can punch through one..........Because Gouf used the pointy end of the sword and stabbed. That's what a stab is.
>>23497388Anon, it's a heat sword. The active edge is pretty important to cutting power. At least in theory, anyway.Actually that makes me wonder, do we ever see someone try and whack someone with an off heathawk or sword? Other than Norris's, I know some people say it's on, others say it's off and others again say it's just a sword. I can't think of an example.
Norris just bends any consistency about armor and weapon power to his will anyways. Unless we want to believe a Jet Core Booster can stop a beam rifle from going through it. Hey remember when Amuro would blast through his shield as a trick?
>>23497424He's just too powerful. I'd say someone should stop him, but. You know.
>>23497424Is that idiot soldier really standing on the GM's shoulder?
>>23497524I'd never really noticed that before. If it's his and he's somehow climbed up there from the cockpit that'd be one thing but if he's just a grunt hitching a ride on a grunt suit, he's got a death wish.
But when Norris fired at the Guntank with his Gatling he was firing from below and presumably hitting parts that werent well armored. Thats why the backpack on the Guntank explodes first.
>>23497693*from abovefuck
What an awful thread, 100 posts of shitflinging and only >>23471711 actually manages to answer the question. I was going to recommend Orguss as well and I can't think of many others, maybe Aldnoah Zero? Though not everyone will like it.
Ez-8 ripping off it's own arm to bash gouf is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Why didn't he just pull out a beam saber?In fact I don't even know how Gouf lost. Ez-8 was already half defeated. Why did Norris do a dumbass suicide charge?
>>23497759>Why didn't he just pull out a beam saber?Because it was cool and caught Norris off guard, just like shouting about marrying Aina threw him off.>Why did Norris do a dumbass suicide charge?To shoot down the Guntank which was his primary objective. Did you pay attention to the plot or just watch the fight on youtube?
>>23497826>Because it was coolNo. Not really. Char kicking someone is cool. Amuro throwing his shield, and dual wielding beam sabers is cool. Shiro ripping off his own arm and yelling about banging Aina was dumb and self destructive. He could have pulled out a beam saber 200% faster. >To shoot down the Guntank which was his primary objective. Did you pay attention to the plot or just watch the fight on youtube?Gouf didn't need to suicide charge at Ez-8 to accomplish that. The Ez-8 was crippled. No long range weapons, no shield, one arm, and a busted jet pack. Gouf could literally just run around Ez-8 at that point and Shiro couldn't do anything.
>>23497854>He could have pulled out a beam saber 200% faster.That would telegraph what he was trying to do to Norris. Grabbing Ez8s arm and using it as a club would catch him unprepared. Besides, it was better to get rid of the arm than have it dangling around as dead weight.>Gouf didn't need to suicide charge at Ez-8 to accomplish that.Karen and Sanders were still around and armed, he couldnt just run around and leisurely shoot down the Guntank. Norris was also short on time because he already told the Kergeren to launch and needed to get rid of the Guntank before that. Tricking Shiro into charging at him to quickly get to the Guntank behind the Ez8 was the best way to do that and he wasnt coming back alive anyway even if he did beat beat Shiro first.
How tf were artillery units supposed to shoot down flying targets? Guntanks are not anti-air units. The whole plot is stupid. The Federation had like 500 core boosters flying in the sky. Norris' sacrifice meant nothing.
Didn't the same guy who worked on 08th MS team also do Netflix Gundam Requiem for a Vengeance?If so, then I'm not surprised. 08th MS team wasn't that great outside of the Gouf Custom battle.
>>23497424Norris is firm evidence that the man on the street LOVES insanely lucky, protagonist power, super-newtype ability guys in tricked out custom suits, they just want you to scrub all those labels off it first. He can still do it all you just need to make sure you just say he's just a "veteran" and now it's all okay.>>23501628No, but someone from genlock S2 did lol
>>23497737>maybe Aldnoah Zero? Though not everyone will like it.Aldnoah Zero is just shit, Blue Gender would probably be a better rec since its from the same guy as VOTOMs and the same time period as 08th.
>>23463211Gasaraki.
>>23497826>To shoot down the Guntank which was his primary objectiveIt was also convenient as all hell that the final Guntank was sitting exposed and watching the fight. One of the big problems with the whole setup is the Guntanks feel like static targets than capable combatants like their predecessor.
>>23494758luna titanium lets you make strong armor lighter, it doesn't make every piece of armor made out of it super strong>>23497367Ez-8 has thicker and stronger armor than the guntank, even if they're made out of the same material>>23497396 I think that happens in GQuuuuuuX once, it crunches Zaku armor pretty good>>23497949Guntanks are anti-air units lol, that's how they're deployed in 0079
>>23505951I don't remember the Guntank ever doing anything aside from shooting down a few aircraft and taking strays
>>23501628>x Gundam Requiem for a Vengeance?it was okay, but Guntank was way too weak, just like in 08thIn reality, Guntank would destroy all gundams. Just because of superior fire rate.
>>23508389>has thicker and stronger armor than the gundude, 75mm would destroy it 20mm and 30mm literally can destroy tanks
>>23465483>>23463712>>23463211>>23463328idk about 08th ms team being the most realistic ever. it's certainly the best gundam series, up there with war in the pocket, and I'd say both shows benefit a lot from having a few amazing fight sequences in what is otherwise a short anime that doesn't get bogged down by needing to hit 52 episodes
>>23508389>Ez-8 has thicker and stronger armor than the guntank, even if they're made out of the same materialThe Guntank has thicker armor but lacks legs. The Ez-8 is lighter and more agile.
>>23508489Have we found the world's first Guntank fanboy?
>>23508702Did you even watch the original series? The Guntank annihilated any mobile suit that stood directly in front of it. It was basically a giant mobile turret. I don't care if your suit is made of Luna Titanium. It can't withstand direct hits from the barrage of those cannons.
>>23508868The MP Guntank isn't the Guntank just like the GM isn't the Gundam.
>>23509015That's because every GM is Ideon.
>>234632110083 to some extent. You should also already know this.
>>23476849That was the gay digislop movie. It wasn't like that in the show.
>>23508676what is shown onscreen contradicts that, therefore you're wrong and all the guntank's extra weight goes into the big guns and ammo storage
>>23509715No duh, why the fuck did you think they were talking about that specific animation?
>>23509015>The MP Guntank isn't the GuntankIt's funny because the MP Guntank is supposed to be an upgrade to the original Guntank. They gave the Guntank more mobility with the uograded MP Guntank.
>>23509015You’re basically saying it’s better when the action is less interesting. Like when the Kampfer blows through a squad of GM Snipers because they went full Nemo.
>>23510004you talking about units stats or action direction?
>>23509841And we also see it move slow, be used as fire support and get its shit rocked up close.So what makes more sense, that it's intended to portray the original Guntank as equally useless, or that the inference is that the new variant performs differently?>>23510004How the fuck did you reach that conclusion from my post?
>>23511399Maybe the pilots of the Guntanks are gutless cowards with no training or skill?
"Realism" is an art direction only, has nothing to do with events or story08th wankers only care that the machines and battles try to ape real-world design language and are from a "grunt" perspective, they do not care if said grunt is UC's version of Domon Kasshu
>>23511521Amuro uses the guntank a few times, he gets a few AA kills against fighter jets and then bails because Zakus show up
>>23515877Kai manages to use the Guntank to help Amuro blasts some Z'goks in Belfast.
>>23501657That’s not some revelation, I have no idea why you think it is. Everyone wants to see trick shots and well choreographed action. But the narrative and tonal differences between someone who was born special and someone worked for their ability is massive.
>>23508868I thought its hands were grenade launchers, but they look like machine guns here, I guess just because of the sheer speed?>had an old neglected HGUC Guntank that paled in comparison with newer kits>realized that there's no major ways to improve it for an HG>took care of the shitty nub marks and have it proudly next to its friends>it's still affordable if you wanted one or spares>was apparently cut out of Origins for baffling reasonsThe Guntank is a dear friend!
>>23517650>I thought its hands were grenade launchers, but they look like machine guns hereI think that varies by which source you ask. In the gif a few posts up it's drawn like a beam rifle, which is wrong for many reasons.>cut out of OriginsThe Origin's take on Operation V basically lays it out so that instead of being three complementary machines it's more a crawl/walk/run evolution, with the Guntank and Guncannon being the ancestors of the Gundam.So where in main canon it ended up clearly making more sense to use the Gundam as a base and then equip/modify the GM to fill other roles as needed instead of maintaining three distinct lines, in The Origin it's framed more as the EFF struggling to break out of their orthodoxy and full-on adopt the concept of the mobile suit, starting with giving a tank arms and eventually becoming a 'true' MS like the Zaku.In theory I don't actually hate the idea but in practice it's just an excuse to do the EFF dirty, particularly the Guncannon.It's like they took the joke of how calling something a 'mobile suit' is a magic property that makes it more effective and applied it to actual (alt) canon.Pic related somehow goes 12v5, plus air cover, and doesn't make a single kill or mission kill while getting totally wiped against some Zaku Is.
>>23517533It's not just trick shots and well choreographed action. It's performing never before seen or established stunts, handing everyone else onscreen the idiot ball and stormtrooper aim, generally acting without opposition because of your status.Some people get mad when you say "the enemies miss him all the time because of his psychic field" but they're happy and fine with it when they just miss all the time without any explanation. That much is true.
>>23517877I know you're having trouble grasping it. But a good analogy I heard is that it's like WW1 tanks VS WW2 tanks in combat. Yes they are both "tanks", but the WW2 are a few generations ahead and much more mobile and faster.5 German Panzer III tanks (from WW2) could absolutely wreck 12 British Mark 1 tanks (from WW1). It would be an absolutely slaughter in the Germans favor. Very similar to how the Federation gun cannons were destroyed if I had to imagine the scenario.
>>23517988Anon, my complaint is more that they don't do enough on-screen to justify it, particularly when White Base still gets a Guncannon just a year later like in mainline UC.There's also plenty of the classic 'oh no you landed a hit but I jumped out of the explosion at you' stuff.It comes off much less as portraying a gap in technical capability or doctrine behind development and much more like it's giving Zeonic a reach-around. If you want to have a meeting engagement of mobile suits where one side has a more than two-to-one advantage as well as top cover, you really need to sell me on how the other side comes out without a scratch while the other unit not just suffers a strategic defeat, not just crippled but literally wiped to the man.Like I said, in theory I like what The Origin is going for with the EFF's orthodoxy holding them back but in practice I don't think it sells.
>>23518050Gundam the Origin isn't even fully animated. It's just a chat backstory for a few episodes. If they ever animated the actual Origin anime then it would probably do a better job of what you are asking.
>>23518062Yeah that's fair, and I'm happy to confess I'm much less familiar with the manga. Read a bit of it but not cover to cover. Still allowed to complain about the bits they have put to screen, though.
>>23518062>It's just a chat backstory for a few episodesDamn I meant "Char backstory".
>>23517877>I think that varies by which source you ask. In the gif a few posts up it's drawn like a beam rifle, which is wrong for many reasons.I swear the manual (of the HG kit, not the actual mobile suit) said they were grenade launchers...>crawl/walk/runI mean, I guess that makes sense in light of proto-Guntanks existing earlier on. I just still dislike that the Guntank got shafted for no reason, because it would have been silly to have it in space?>yeah fuck having treads in space, you're really supposed to have legs until you realize you don't need legs eitherI understand and appreciate the design philosophy you've laid out for Origin, but I did like the notion of far/medium/close range that they had in mind where they're really supposed to compliment each other, even during pioneering days of mobile suit doctrine. I mean, you didn't just have megadestroyer tanks in WW2, but also tanks that were designed to accompany infantry, right?>the Guncannon was done dirty tooHow, I thought you were given two or three of them later on?>picWhat happened>>23517988>WW2>light tanks went ham until they were getting murdered>Germany tries to go ham with heavy fatass tanks>lighter tank chassis made viable again with heavier weapons>apparently the infantry tank stuff I mentioned earlier was replaced over timeAs a weirdo who likes the Gyan as well as Zeon's stupid mobile armors and various EF grunts, I think you could have still kept a lot of the older stuff or shown a different and unique design philosophy showing things as potentially viable.>Gyan and M'Quve giving Amuro a run for his money for a bit (but written out in Origin!!)>that one guy heading out with a Zaku I and faring okay for a bit>Zeon having to deploy Zaku Is alongside Gelgoogs in the endBut then again, I also haven't finished Origin due to this and what I heard about Char. It probably does at least have a thought-out philosophy for some of the mobile suits, but they also robbed me of my Gyan.
