BUTThis thing has a NUCLEAR REACTOR with enough power to give electricity to 1000 homes. 8,862kw is a shitload of power. Flying around, swinging a saber, taking potshots with the standard beam? That's like 1 or 2 homes worth of power required, maybe like 5 or 6 in a sustained conflict.This alpha strike of freedom is totally reasonable within the context of the fiction. Plus it's not like late UC designs aren't doing this shit constantly, especially MS with funnel systems. Like, canonically? The Nu Gundam would wipe the floor with the freedom, yet UC purists never seem to shit on CCA or Unicorn or even Hathaway (ugliest Gundam ever)
>>23502820I don’t care much for SEED but the criticisms about beam spam always felt silly, it’s a giant robot show with lots of pretty colors and high tech looking robots, one of the robots being more flashy than usual is just nitpicking.
>>23502820I think you misunderstand the reason people dislike it if you're just talking about in-universe specs.
>>23502820>Like, canonically? The Nu Gundam would wipe the floor with the freedomWould it? I thought the Freedom had higher acceleration at least.
>>23502820The issue was never the beam spam. The issue was there no one could block it, or even counter attack the Strike Freedom and damage it. This issue was fixed in the Gundam Seed Freedom movie. Plenty of enemies are on the same level as Strike Freedom.
The problem wasn't the logistics of it, it was that Kira using stock footage blasting animation followed by shots of MS getting their limbs blown off was really fucking boring to watch. As Freedom showed, if Destiny had pretty animation and fights that weren't constant looped stock footage people would have loved it
>>23502820The robots are fine, the problem is more the dark crystal like character art.Even the whole Jesus kira thing is cool.
>>23503041The other Gundam suits were pretty safe from it, the grunts just didn't have the technology, which I would argue makes sense in canon. If you think about it, the GINN was a hastily thrown together weapon of war that was designed to fight against mobile armors, which in CE are like really advanced fighter jets. That's why it has the missiles and fires ballistic tank shells from its machine gun. It is a super weapon against tanks, planes, helicopters, infantry and most importantly mobile armors. The Gundams were created as very expensive cutting edge technology in multiple variants because the EA (and ORB) wanted to find the best way to counter ZAFT mobile suits. They were over engineered and designed to experiment with different weapons loadouts for the purpose of making cheaper general use mass production mobile suits. The Dagger was made to kill GINNs and BuCues etc. it wasn't made to fight Gundams. It was specifically an anti-zaft suit. The astray was made off of the Astray frame design and was designed to be an allcomer suit capable of fighting everything *well enough* because ORB had to rush them out the door to protect themselves from both ZAFT and the EA. The grunts were never meant to take warship grade beams to the cockpit. Most of them could barely survive a large caliber ballistic impact. My 2c anyways.
>>23503314That wasn't the critique though, the critique was just how much plot armor Kira had that grunt suits couldn't even put a dent on the Freedom and Strike Freedom.
ESL
I always assumed that the Freedom multi locking was meant to show that it had superior range and was doing HiMAT Fullburst BVR, but it wouldn't look good doing it from the range an F22/J-20 fires from.
Like others have said, the problem with the beamspam was Kira having such thick plot armor together with it. Once Seed Freedom put him up against enemies where he had to work for his win, it was cool.
>>23503611Grunt suits couldn't put a dent in anyone in a modern Gundam show. That wasn't the problem. The problem is when Legend and Destiny, two Gundam's that also had nuclear power and basically the same technology couldn't put a scratch in the Strike Freedom. Especially compared to the previous finale where OG Freedom got fucked up fighting Providence.
>>23503674It's pretty clear from the establishing shots everyone is well within visual range in those battles.
>>23503684Well, it was substantially less bad.
>>235028208,8 megawatts is rather pathetic though. You could make that with few helicopter gas turbines. I guess it would be decent for some early spacecraft fission powerplants but powering multiple particle beams and railguns takes a bit more than that.
>>23503314You are on the right track. A more simplified version is1. EA mass produces Mobius space fighters to kill Zaft ships.2. ZAFT Ginns were designed to kill Mobius fighters.3. Five Gundams were designed to kill Zaft Ginns and ships with ease.4. The Strike Dagger was a cheaper version designed to kill Ginns.5. The Zaft Freedom and Justice were designed to kill EA's original 5 Gundams6. Zaft makes the GuAIZ to kill Strike Daggers.7. EA makes improved Daggers and Windams to counter the Zakus7.5 - (Zaft makes Second Stage series Gundams to match the old Freedom and Justice. But is limited by batteries) 8. Zaft makes Goufs and Babis to counter these Windams9. EA says screw this and makes mobile armors like Zamza-Zah and Destroy Gundam to try to end the arms race through overwhelming fire power. 10. ZAFT counters by making the Destiny and Legend Gundam to defeat Destroy Gundams.11. Team Lacus steps in and interferes. They unleash Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice to counter Destiny and Legend. SF and IJ are like a half-generation better than Destiny and Legend. SF and IJ beat Destiny and Legend - with moderate difficulty.
>>23503684If you guys are referring to full burst mode specifically, I'm a bit confused. Kira landed a direct hit with that on literally one ace. The rest of the time it's just used to clear out fodder/intercept shit. The way you describe it, you'd think it's the Build Knuckle.>>23503875It was cool, fuck you.
The amount of samefagging in this thread is embarassing
>>23504141Who are you accusing?
>>23503913>SF and IJ are like a half-generation better than Destiny and Legend.They're basically the same and use the same technology and were in development at the same time. The only difference is their OS and cockpit designs.
>>23502820The problem isn't that the SF can do thatThe problem is that it's basically all the SF is known for
G-Reco did the whole half-hearted-pacifism-trying-not-to-kill-if-I-can thing better because it actually portrays doing that as extremely difficult and undoable most of the time, Bellri is constantly struggling and anxious about minimizing his kills. Meanwhile SEED and Destiny has Kira do it effortlessly all the time to most of the grunts he faces and even to Shinn all of which only serves to jerk off Kiras skill level by showing how superior he is to his pathetic enemies instead of driving home the intended message that pacifism and deescalation are harder than war and conflict.
>>23504194>They're basically the same and use the same technology and were in development at the same time. The only difference is their OS and cockpit designs.Maybe but their reactors were clearly different. Destiny had power supply problems. Strike Freedom did not.
>>23504443nigga that's like claiming only the zudahs that blew up had bad reactors and all the zudahs that didn't must be using different reactor techeven fukada said they were same reactors
>>23504440Kira never effortlessly disarms Shinn outside of their literal first confrontation, and even that's mostly owed to the latter being totally blindsided. The struggle to deescalate conflict is still obviously on display too even if he isn't struggling not to kill ever grunt he meets anyway.
>>23504443>>23504477I thought the problem was that the Destiny's reactor was improperly tuned or something along those lines. Regardless, it never happened again after that incident. Regardless, I'm pretty sure the Destiny still edges out over the SF/IJ, at least in raw power.
>>23504443No they canonically have the exact same reactor. And the movie shows that Strike Freedom can have power problems as well it just didn't in Destiny because it didn't need to be pushed as hard.
>>23504477>>23504545Much like with the Windam VPS thing, they probably weren't supposed to have the same power source at first (Destiny and Legend still need a charging cable while SF and IJ do not, and their reactors are in totally different spots on the frames) but the seat of their pants design and later decisions ended up making them the same since that was the best way for development to make sense.
>>23504194Destiny and Legend did not have a phase shift inner frame like SF and IJ.SF had golden inner frame. IJ had silver inner frame. This allowed both suits to have greater flexibility and response time.
>>23504694How does that work anyway? You'd think armoring up the joints would be cause for greater restriction. Is the phase shift making the joints tougher so they can be stretched/stressed at lesser cost? Also, do we know if the Destiny Spec II got the inner frame job?
>>23504524Theres the obvious implication that Kira could have always beaten Shinn if he "got serious" which is what I meant. Shinn beats the Freedom by exploiting the fact Kira never aims for the cockpit when he isnt fighting some madman to imply that he wouldnt have lost otherwise. It all serves to hype him up as a fighter instead of being conducive to the themes.
>>23503913>Zaft makes the GuAIZ to kill Strike Daggers.The GuIAZ project existed before they got the Gundams but a bigger deal was made about beams because ZAFT realized Earth has them better than they realized. Thus the end product ended up stronger by necessity.
>>23503768He was getting dicked the first time before Athrun rammed Shinn with the IJ. The end battle had way less damage for the whole 3 Ships Alliance side but Shinn nearly his beam cannon ready to blast him on Earth.
>>23504785>Theres the obvious implication that Kira could have always beaten Shinn if he "got serious"Which just paints Kira as an idiot for being so unserious that he got his nuclear powered trump card wrecked, and almost got himself killed. Not to mention all the Orb pilots that later got slaughtered when Shinn showed up in the Destiny, but before he was intercepted by Akatsuki then the Strike Freedom.
>>23504443Strike Freedom has the same power problems that Destiny had in the movie. Hyper-Deuterion MS like Destiny and Strike Freedom are constantly regenerating power for their deuterion battery, but they can still run out of the power in the battery if they use too much at once. Kira in the show never fought a battle where he was in significant danger, so he never really needed to push the Strike Freedom, whereas Shinn was constantly spamming his Wings of Light and overtaxing the Destiny's battery faster than his reactor could refill it.
>>23504785>>23504840>>23504524I don't care what anyone says. This is shitty writing under any light.
>>23502820>Hathaway (ugliest Gundam ever)Naw, More charming than freedom
>>23504635The charging cable has always been optional, it is just to keep the suit topped off at 100% when it leaves the ship. When Legend and Destiny take off for the very first time from the base hangar, they don't have the cable plugged in either, but you're right about them having it plugged in when launching from the Minerva. I guess If it doesn't have the charging cable to keep it at full then maybe it's sortieing with 95% battery or something. It's nice to have a full battery, but doesn't necessarily win or lose the battle in most cases.>>23504710It's not making the joints thicker. Phase shift just makes the material stronger and more resistant to wear and tear and damage.>Also, do we know if the Destiny Spec II got the inner frame job?I actually can't even remember if SF and IJ type 2 have them or show them in the movie either.
>>23504785>Theres the obvious implication that Kira could have always beaten Shinn if he "got serious" which is what I meant.Athrun does seem to take the fight at Angel down as a farce/shock, that much is true. That said, SEED Destiny's entire thing is that in battles against aces, the thing that matters most is willpower. Kira (who reflects that he was hesitating on fighting ZAFT when talking about the fight) lost more to Shinn's unyielding rage than he did to any exploit (although the silhouette spam does work as a good visualization of Shinn's resolve). That absolutely works for the themes.
>>23504934Because...?
>>23504141Wait? That was a one person conversation? The whole time?...SeedCHADs not like this!! NO
>>23504968Don't put characters in situations where they would clearly get killed, but don't because of writer fiat.
>>23504973Kira's go-to fighting style is writer fiat?
>>23504843You're basically right but clarification: the reactor supplies enough energy to run the suit, and anything excess goes into the battery. When the energy required is more than the reactor's moment-to-moment output, or when the reactor needs to be shut down, that's when the battery kicks in. The old idea I've seen bandied about where the suit runs off the battery which is fed by the reactor isn't strictly correct.>>23504785There are far more factors to Angel Down than just that. Kira was trying to avoid killing anybody from ZAFT to avoid more bad PR. He had been fighting for a while whereas Shinn was fresh. Kira's number one priority was protecting the Archangel to the point where he's willing to completely turn his back on Shinn when it's in danger.>>23504934I just think you don't understand that scene. What do you think is happening there? Why does Kira use the railguns? Why does Shinn say what he says?>>23504785
>>23504986Shinn's own words are telling you that he would've died if Kira had fired beams at the Destiny. In other words, instead of making the battle interesting on its own merits. he's put in a deadly situation that really isn't.
>>23502820>>23502829You misunderstand why people disliked SEED's beam spam.It wasn't a lore issue. It was because the animation looked terrible and lazy.90% of the time SEED's battles heavily abuse reused footage or genga. The choreography was ass.No one complains about beams in 00 or AGE or UC because those shows have great battle animation.
>>23505001>Shinn's own words are telling you that he would've died if Kira had done something that goes against his established characterAgain, failing to see the issue here.
>>23505001The railguns were the only option Strike Freedom realistically had in that moment. Shinn interprets their use as a personal insult, because he's not thinking rationally.
>>23505033>realisticallyHe could've killed that little shit right then and there, but doesn't because he's a fag (and the plot demands the characters still be there, even if the writing is SCREAMING that they're seconds away from dying).>Shinn interprets their use as a personal insultAnd he's right. Kira does not take the battlefield seriously. He never has, up until it's time to wrap things up.
>>23505016No one remembers AGE in the first place, and I hardly ever see anyone talk about 00 outside of Setsuna x Exia memes.
>>23505016>No one complains about beams in 00 or AGE or UC because those shows have great battle animation.They also DON'T over-reuse stock footage unlike sneed.
>>23505040He couldn't have. The Calidus could have caused the Destiny to violently explode in Kira's face. The vulcans would do nothing. The beam rifles were too unwieldy to intercept quickly. He didn't have time to toss the rifles and then grab the sabers and then block. The only safe option for Kira to counterattack was the railguns, which while it didn't damage the Destiny, Shinn still felt the full force in the cockpit. That he wasn't instantly knocked out is, if anything, plot armor on his end.
>>23505066>The Calidus could have caused the Destiny to violently explode in Kira's face. The vulcans would do nothing. The beam rifles were too unwieldy to intercept quickly. He didn't have time to toss the rifles and then grab the sabers and then block.You care more about the technical minutae than anyone that wrote for the series. Don't you remember Fukuda's bullshit explanation as to why Mwu survived a Lohengrin shot to the face? Shit happens (and doesn't happen) because the plot says so.
>>23505066He didn't even have the rifles on hand to begin with.
>>23505075The show didn't just happen by accident, people behind the scenes did put some thought into some aspects of it, as rushed as it might have been.>>23505078Yeah, he tosses them up into the air when Shinn rushes him.
>>23505066Anon, at a certain point you have to let things go. The guy you're talking to clearly isn't looking to argue in good faith.
>>23505084>people behind the scenes did put some thought into some aspects of itAnd it's irrelevant when the writer and director simply do not care. Also, the "thought and care" is usually dumped in databooks written after the series' conclusion, meaning that they had little (or no) weight in the story's actual writing.
>>23505093I only just hopped in the thread.>>23505096I explained the scene to you in plain English. If you deliberately choose not to understand it and make weird excuses instead, that’s on you. Not a failing of SEED Destiny’s.
>>23505107Let's put it this way: I'm as angry as Shinn is when I see that scene.For further context, we have all the instances where Kira and Athrun could've butchered the druggies, but didn't. Or the times that Phase Shift gets beaten by physical weapons.
>>23505075You fucking retard, you just defeated your own point.
>>23505123Try to let the irrational anger go and engage with the story with an open mind. You might be surprised.
>>23505123>Picrel The Justice is literally repelled back by a mini explosion the second Athrun gets close enough to land anything.
>>23505066>The Calidus could have caused the Destiny to violently explode in Kira's face.Kira could get clear in barely a second like he did with Rau after stabbing him and Destroy after stabbing it. At worst he'd mess up catching his rifles and have to fish them out of the water later on.
>>23505135Get clear of a potential nuclear explosion in a second?
>>23505134>literally repelled back by a mini explosionNo, you dumb sack of shit. The Justice is actively pushing the druggie's chest beam back towards it, then moving back. The glow you see is the beam proper, not an "explosion". It would've been zero effort for Athrun to stab him with the beam saber that was already drawn.Do I have to make a fucking WEBM now?And what about this one?
>>23505123>>23505144This has literally nothing to do with the Destiny scene
>>23504949>I actually can't even remember if SF and IJ type 2 have them or show them in the movie either.They do, but they're not as prominently sparkly as they were in the show.
>>23504710Yes, Destiny’s joints glow red.
>>23505134hahahaha are you serious this isn't a turn based game just fucking shoot again or move closer
>>23505144We have flashing unstable light, a literal "boom" sound effect, and the Justice suddenly moving back really fast. It's definitely an explosion, you disingenuous mongoloid. >And what about this one?Most sane people would be at least a little baffled watching three drug addicts crash out on the battlefield. >>23505158There was a guy a couple months back who'd pull the same shit. He'd make a fuss about something, get called out, then abandon that talking point to see the about something else only to get the same result until he left to do the same thing in another thread. Not sure if this is the same guy, though.
>>23505189>Shoot again He didn't have his rifle out to begin with and the Raider closes in to defend a second later.
>>23505192Seethe*
>>23505192I rewatched the scene. The Justice had had more than enough time to swing the beam saber (which, again, IT WAS ALREADY DRAWN) and stab the faggot in the left side while the other hand was blocking the beam.>Most sane people would be at least a little baffled watching three drug addicts crash out on the battlefield.Kira and Athrun don't know anything about them, other that those are dangerous units that suddenly stopped shooting for unknown reasons. Why aren't they firing back?
>>23505198he has the lifter's twin beam guns and there's nothing stopping him from just being more lethal and doing something WHILE approaching with the shield
>>23505237>there's nothing stopping him from just being more lethal and doing something WHILE approaching with the shieldIf you look at >>23505237, even if the body was being covered by the shield, he could've used the lifter's plasma guns to shoot at the cannons. Piece of cake for a supposed elite pilot, since the druggies always shoot while moving.Also, Kira was defending Athrun during his close engagement, so "oh no raider is approaching to defend" isn't an excuse either. That's the point of having a wingman.
>>23505144>>23505123I think many of you forgot that Gundam mobile suits can self-destruct in Seed. So pilots have to at least be a little cautious before diving head first for a lethal blow. If you examine all 6 times they fought the Druggies, Kira and Athrun don't go for the lethal attack unless they are 100% sure the attack is a fatal killing strike that will hit the cockpit. Otherwise it's usually a "hit and dash away" attack that Athrun and Kira use. And even when you do hit their cockpit, the suit still explodes (just not as powerful as a self destruct), and you still need to back up a bit to avoid the blast.
>>23505227A beam saber strike isn't enough to guarantee a kill in Seed. We've seen cockpits take a beam saber slash and all it did was slice the cockpit door open (Strike VS Aegis). Or when Destroy Gundam cockpit got slashed but the pilot still survived.
>>23505291not good enough reason since that never happens
>>23505227>More than enough timeHe had a second, and the beam wasn't just going to politely wait for him to finish before exploding. Even if he had done as you said, the ensuing explosion would have still thrown off his swing. >Kira and Athrun don't know anything about themThey were literally just firing at each other five seconds ago before suddenly stopping. They knew enough about them to wonder what their fuck their problem was. >>23505237>he has the lifter's twin beam gunsThe Raider's still there, Anon. Even then, the shot up close would be awkward to land. > there's nothing stopping him from just being more lethal and doing something WHILE approaching with the shieldExcept the maneuver that is currently taking all his focus. >>23505271Firstly, moving goalposts. Secondly, Athrun literally got in this position bailing Kira out, who's stunned like everyone else that Athrun's reckless move paid off. Clotho moves in to attack first, Kira snaps out of it at this point to intercept.
>>23505305>that never happensSo we're just making shit up now?
>>23505291>Gundam mobile suits can self-destruct in SeedYou have to activate the self-destruction manually. So no, the "danger" you're babbling about isn't a thing in a combat situation. Aegis had hooked itself to the Strike, which had lost an arm already.>>23505298A direct stab is not the same as a slash.
>>23505291That only ever happened once with Miguel vs the dozen or so other times Kira went for the kill in Strike with zero hesitation of worrying about the enemy self destructing. I don't think that was the reason.
>>23502820I always love how some people will just a criticism and then just not understand it at all
>>23505315If anything Kira should worry about that with all his non lethal attacks not fatal ones. If you destroy the cockpit the pilot won't be alive to self destruct.
>>23505306>He had a secondWe've seen Kira and Athrun act even faster, so no, that isn't an excuse.>the ensuing explosion would have still thrown off his swing. What fucking swing? Just shove the saber on the side.>to wonder what their fuck their problem wasIt's a combat situation. You don't "wonder" at what the enemy is doing, just shoot back.>The Raider's still thereAnd what the fuck does that have to do with anything? He's engaging that other guy. If anything, this is more of a reason to move in guns blazing.>Even then, the shot up close would be awkward to land. See >>23505271>Except the maneuver that is currently taking all his focus. Just fire the fucking cannons at the enemy while approaching. How is that so difficult?>who's stunned like everyone else that Athrun's reckless move paid offExcept for the fact that he didn't go for the killing stab with the beam saber and just disengaged as soon as he finished blocking. The only consequence is getting the shield a bit burnt.
>>23505048>I hardly ever see anyone talk about 00Outside of /m/? who cares all the decent discussion is here
>>23505315>You have to activate the self-destruction manually. So no, the "danger" you're babbling about isn't a thing in a combat situationWhy are you typing the OPPOSITE of what your GIF is showing? Athrun is literally in a combat situation and blows up Aegis in Kira's face. Did you seriously think you have a "gotcha" or something? You just disproved yourself.
>>23505317>I don't think that was the reason.It isn't. And the Strike wasn't damaged when Miguel's GINN exploded just meters away, apart from a few scuffs on the chassis that did not affect its combat operation.
>>23505347If your suit doesn't have phase shift, then you are toast. Even then it's not a good idea to risk standing next to an explosion.
>>23505342With "combat situation", I meant a dogfight. Aegis clawing itself to the Strike is a thing only that unit could do in a desperate situation for Athrun. Miguel did it because Strike only stabbed at the head and needed to escape quickly and create a distraction.Outside of that specific situation, nobody does attacks with the self-destruction mechanism because the pilot escaping would been a dead giveaway. Even those Ash pilots could've tried to dogpile the Freedom and damage it with the self-destructs; but no, they engaged with their weapons and only killed themselves to leave no living evidence of ZAFT's involvement.
>>23505335>We've seen Kira and Athrun act fasterWhile holding a beam at bay? >What fucking swing? The point is that the beam's gonna explode on Athrun as he's making the move and the Raider's gonna be on his ass while he's making that move too if he lingers. >You don't "wonder" at what the enemy is doing, just shoot backThe goalposts have again sprouted legs. >And what the fuck does that have to do with anything?Are you retarded or trolling? The Raider is still there to intercept Athrun. The Raider's not currently engaging anyone since his last move was just to push Kira back and line him up for Orga's attack either. >See see >>23505306>Just fire the fucking cannons at the enemy while approaching.The beam in his face screwing up his line of sight, the beam actively pushing against him, the knowledge that the slightest mistake will fuck up his leverage with the shield and potentially get him (and everyone else) killed? He had to enter SEED mode to do this for a reason.
>>23505407all invalid because hypotheticals
>>23505412>No argument Fuck off
>>23505407>While holding a beam at bay?While evading shit all around them, which is more difficult to pull off than just "pushing forward with the shield against a straight beam".>The point is that the beam's gonna explode on Athrun as he's making the moveWhy? He's covering himself with the shield. If he goes for the kill, an explosion would happen regardless. Either take the chance and engage or stop pussyfooting around. What you actually want is for Athrun to snipe them from kilometers away and eliminate any risk that he could possibly be damaged.>The goalposts have again sprouted legs. Make an actual argument or shut up.>The Raider is still there to intercept Athrun.And Kira is there to cover Athrun. What's the argument here? "Won't attack if it is too hot?" Tough shit: this is a fucking war. At least killing the druggie closes a dangerous vector right then and there, instead of prolonging the risk to himself and the rest of his afaction.>(and everyone else) killed?Now you're exaggerating to make a point.>He had to enter SEED mode to do this for a reason.And he pulled much more complicated stunts before and after. Why is "swing arm, stab druggie gundam in the side" so difficult?
Where the hell did this "Kira and Athrun don't make aggressive moves against the druggies because they're pussies and afraid something bad might happen if they get too close" come from all of a sudden?
>>23505437>Kira and Athrun don't make aggressive moves against the druggies because they're pussies and afraid something bad might happen if they get too closeThat's the diegetic ("in-universe") explanation. And it's bullshit. And the alternative explanation ("Kira and Athrun are too pussy to kill their enemies") is even bigger bullshit.>the story can't kill off the main annoying foes in gundams up until the climax.That's the non-diegetic ("from the writer's perspective") explanation. And it's bullshit because other shows have done it. As much as I hate Ali, he did the right thing and offed of two out of three of those worthless Trinity pukes.
>>23502820>This thing has a NUCLEAR REACTOR with enough power to give electricity to 1000 homes. 8,862kw is a shitload of power. >Flying around, swinging a saber, taking potshots with the standard beam? That's like 1 or 2 homes worth of power required, maybe like 5 or 6 in a sustained conflict.That's not a lot if you actually knew what you were talking about.This is the McDonnell F-4 Phantom II, the very best of 1950s aviation technology and proof that even a brick can fly if you put enough thrust in it. The US model is powered by two General Electric J79 jet engines (Brits used their own engines in their units).
>>23505469 (cont'd)This is the GE LM1500, a derivative of the J79 for electricity and marine power generation. A single one of these powerplants can provide 11,500 kW of electricity, enough to power about 2,800 households.And the Phantom has two of these mounted on its fuselage.
>>23505429>While evading shit all around themSo it's retardation after all. Firstly, even if we argued that doing that WAS in fact harder than the beam tank, it wouldn't matter unless we agreed that both tasks were difficult for the same reasons. We have a force plainly slowing the Justice down, both on account of force and Athrun trying his damnedest not to get burn vs Athrun taking out opponents with full range of motion granted to him in a high speed MS. Do you not see the difference? >Why? What do you mean "why?" It's literally what happens in the show and none of your fanfic scenarios actually work around that. While Athrun's moving to stab or swing or whatever, the beam will explode like it always does because nothing's changed to influence that. Because the explosion from the beam will still happen, the force of it will still send him back and screw up the aim of his stab/attack. >Make an actual argument or shut up.ZAFT trained Athrun to deal with foolish/bloodthirsty naturals, not insane asylum escapees, and Kira's hardly a trained soldier. As such, your statement misses the mark for Athrun and my own original argument still applies fine for both him and Kira. >And Kira is there to cover Athrun.Kira literally just got saved in this immediate context and canonically responded to defend Athrun after the Raider made his move. >Won't attack if it is too hot?" Tough shit: this is a fucking war. Do you have something of value to say besides retarded platitudes? My argument was that this missed opportunity you're pissing your pants about wasn't a thing and even if he wanted to capitalize AFTER or during, he would have gotten forced back by the Raider like he did in the show.Even if my point was that it was too risky, your response is effectively to say that potentially getting fucked up to kill one druggie is worth it. >Now you're exaggerating to make a point.It's a nuclear Gundam and the Archangel at the very least is well within exploding distance.
>>23505490>the beam will explode like it always does because nothing's changed to influence that. >the force of it will still send him back and screw up the aim of his stab/attack.He'd make the stab before the beam "explodes". There's enough time for him in >>23505227 to do that. How long do you think a beam saber's stab takes to pull?You are telling me that Athrun Zala, one of the top five pilots in this whole story, simply cannot use its arm to do a basic stabbing on the side of an MS while blocking.>ZAFT trained Athrun to deal with foolish/bloodthirsty naturals, not insane asylum escapeesWhat's the difference? He's facing dangerous pilots regardless. You think he cared when he was against the Extended in Destiny?>and Kira's hardly a trained soldierOh, no. You don't get to play this card after all the stunts he pulls on the Freedom.>and even if he wanted to capitalize AFTER or during, he would have gotten forced back by the Raider like he did in the show.Why is this relevant if he had gotten a kill? Move to block, use the closeup to stab the bastard, disengage when cover appears.>your response is effectively to say that potentially getting fucked up to kill one druggie is worth it. Define "fucked up". He defended pretty well against the druggies. At best, he would've gotten the Justice a bit banged up in the process: lose a limb, head, weapons, backpack, whatever. He's gotten kills with missing limbs and Justice/Freedom are very sturdy. Which is, by the way, more than what could be said when Kira unsuccessfully tried to rescue Fllay's capsule, got the Freedom decapitated in the process and none of the druggies were touched.>It's a nuclear Gundam and the Archangel at the very least is well within exploding distance.The only instance of a meltdown is Impulse stabbing Freedom square in the chest. None of the other attacks against a nuclear Gundam (Providence obliterating Freedom, Destiny's finale) has ever ended with a critical explosion.
>>23505517>He'd make the stab before the beam "explodes".Where is this leverage you're imagining that Athrun has to even do that? He can't reach ahead to do a stab as he's coming in because he has the beam to mind and he can't afford to move the Justice too much until he reaches ground zero (and the beam's still against him even then). He has half a second to adjust himself once he reaches ground zero and then in that last half second he can make for the stab from that awkward angle, which leads again to the whole "explosion pushing him back" thing. >What's the difference? The fact that the escapees can't be understood at all. Like, we literally see this vex Athrun in particular. It's not a secret.>You think he cared when he was against the Extended in Destiny?The Extendeds were nowhere near as crazy, and he still tried to handle them non-lethally. Even if they would have been, the Extendeds could never be his first run in with crazies in mobile suits, so of course he wouldn't be as thrown off by them. >He piloted a mobile suit really good so that suddenly means he's a trained soldier!This doesn't even make sense as an argument for you to make when you highlight him losing his head over Flay later in the same post.>Why is this relevant if he had gotten a kill?Clotho see stab motion, Raider stop Athrun. Kira too shocked to intercept in time, so Athrun gets pushed back, just like in canon. >None of the other attacks against a nuclear Gundam (Providence obliterating Freedom, Destiny's finale) has ever ended with a critical explosion.The Providence got caught in the Genesis explosion like a second after it got stabbed, and the Destiny/Legend both got disabled.
>>23505474That's the wrong kind of autism for this board anon Your effort is appreciated and I salute you, but this is the silly Chinese cartoons board
>>23504710>How does that work anyway? I just read through several databooks about it. I'll give a quick breakdown. Destiny Gundam:- New reactor provides much higher energy output to Destiny Gundam. - This results in much greater speed, strength, and maneuverability. - Improved Phase shift helps suit and joints withstand higher G-force stress. - Phase shift is only on outer layer of suit and joints.- Sliding armor plates around legs and joints allow for greater flexibility.- Zaft engineers on Minerva had to constantly fine tune the Destiny's sliding armor plates (especially around the joints) to match Shinn's combat data. It took several battles for Zaft engineers to get it just right to match Shinn. Every battle improved the Destiny's performance. - Shinn supervised adjustmentz before and after every battle. That's why the suit fits Shinn like a glove. Everything is tuned to his *exact* preferences- Same system was applied to Legend Gundam but tuned to Rey's preferencesStrike Freedom:- Kira supervised the design and construction. - An EXTREME was placed emphasis on speed and maneuverability (request by Kira). - Kira wanted less armor and more agility/maneuverability. - Kira and Terminal Engineers literally removed armor plates and shaved down the armor to bare minimum. Especially around the joints. Because of this, much of inner frame is exposed during combat. - The remaining smaller armor pieces also slide around during combat.- The lack of armor getting in the way allowed Kira to achieve human-like movement and flexibility at the cost of Defense. - This extra speed and flexibility caused great stress on the joints. - To solve this, a new "double phase shift" system was used. Phase shift was applied on the surface AND inner frame of the suit. Including the joints. - The joints glow bright gold and also vent/dissipate excess heat generated during combat. - Even in the inner barrel of the railgun has phase shift applied.
>>23505448Ali himself was a major threat though, and every faction had Ace pilots. The biggest problem with SEED is that the hero and rival had joined forces and pretty much all of the face pilots had joined the same side, so other than Rau (who was being saved as the final boss) the Druggies were the only ones they had left to actually fight against Kira and Athrun.
>>23505448>And the alternative explanation ("Kira and Athrun are too pussy to kill their enemies") is even bigger bullshit.That pretty much IS the explanation for Kira. Post getting Freedom you have to show massive evil or wanton destruction for him to kill you. Otherwise he won't even at the risk of his own life. Athrun though has no such justification.
>>23506300>Is the phase shift making the joints tougher so they can be stretched/stressed at lesser cost? Yes.Also the weapons as well for SF. Strike Freedom's railguns have phase shift applied to inner components and barrel. This allows Strike Freedom's weapon with higher electromagnetic power and to fire rounds at higher velocity. SF is basically like Gundam Mark II from Zeta Gundam. A skeleton inner frame with components and armor attached to the frame.>Also, do we know if the Destiny Spec II got the inner frame job?Destiny Spec II only got a partial enhancement. The joints were modified to have same system as Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. The joints got enhanced with "double phase shift" for greater flexibility, and for dispersing heat. But the rest of the Destiny "skeleton/inner frame" did not get the refit. It's still the same. So it's only the joints that were changed. As to why not? I'm not sure. Maybe Destiny Gundam was designed differently, the inner frame can't be phase shifted, and/or can only receive limited upgrades in certain area. My guess? It's like upgrading an old 1980s/1990s Russian Tanks. Sure you can add new optics, attach extra armor, some new electronics, and several other things. But there are limits. At its core it's still an older design, and can only be upgraded so much. However, that just makes it more impressive to me. Shinn bested the Black Knights with only a partial enhancement to Destiny Gundam.
Databookfags are the worst. I miss when all of this was unknown to everyone
>>23506337Then it just becomes arguments about power levels like dragon ball Z, or tiers about which pilot is more "skilled".
>>23506632That was way easier than this current shit we have. All we had to do was insult each other, now we're bringing imaginary numbers and dumbshit "director said" ideas into the mix
>>23506322>there's no such thing as just disabling someone, it's got to be weak-ass punches and kicks or cockpit killsfuck that nonsense
>>23506708It could be argued that he wasn't mentally stable anymore and skills went down. He lost both his teammates and was alone. He just saw his father figure Neo get shot down in front of his own eyes.
>>23506706Some of us IRL are tread heads and former military. I can autistically ramble all the specs for everything that used a 155 during the gulf, because I was there doing it and I enjoyed what I was doing. Serving in artillery was my first exposure to Gundam and manga. These imaginary numbers add an extra layer of autism for servicefags like me, and we enjoy it.
>>23506300So basically Strike Freedom. sacrificed armor for better mobility... while Destiny tried to strike a balance between armor and mobility.Isnt that really bad for Kira? One hit and he takes massive damage.
Relinquish your redundant limbs, noids, The superior form is here. Gaydamns will never be capable of even comprehending competition.
>>23507212Kira rarely gets hit. And no amount of defense other than a strong beam shield (which both of them have) can really defend against a head on beam weapon, so armor is mostly irrelevant.
>>23506708That only works to some extent. Kira couldn't "just disable" Shinn at Angel Down and eventually gave up and tried to bail rather than kill him even though Shinn was kicking his ass.
>>23506632I don't care about any of that. I just want to state my head canon and have nobody be able to refute it so I can claim victory by forfeit. You mother fuckers and your databook shit have been ruining all my fun. Die in a fire.
>>23507223Kira took some direct beam hits before while piloting Freedom. The armor saved him. The beam did not go clean through Freedom. When the beam hit the suit, only the outer armor got blown off. And Kira kept moving. Seems like armor is a good idea. Even if the armor is only good against 1 hit.
>>23507254Did you mean to post a pic with this? I assume you're talking about his battle against the Providence.
>>23505474All I'm hearing is that Gundam engineers are cracked out of their minds if they can make Mobile Suits do what they do with 2/3rds of that power at the most.
>>23507254>>23507259Kira takes 3 body shots against Providence. The first blows off the shoulder (and the whole arm is shot off a few seconds later) and the second destroys one of his railguns. The 3rd is the only real direct hit, it hits the left chest vent and makes a hole but doesn't seem to go through.
>>23507259Kira took beam hits against Raider, Calamity, and later on Providence.People talk about rifle beams melting through phase shift. That's not exactly true. Phase shift does resist it a bit. The beam is stopped at the first layer of phase shift most of the time. Almost like reactive armor.
Anyone think it's ridiculous that Freedom's shield is able to withstand a direct hit from Archangels main Gotfried beam cannons? The beam is huge. Should the shield fail? Or at the very least Crack or break after a single hit?
>>23507478Very very rarely does that happen. Typically the shot goes straight through or causes something to explode. When Freedom took hits against the druggies, first one of wings blew up, and then it completely disintegrated half of it's head. Against Providence it constantly took damage, except for that final shot to the chest which it somehow tanked and people had been calling BS on that for 20 years. In Destiny one of Impulse's shots melts straight through the shoulder armor and a later hit again blows up one of the wings.
>>23507466>>23507478I remembered the chest attack in the Providence vividly, but I must admit the instances against the Raider and Calamity escape me. What episode do the latter happen in?
>>23507541I remember Freedom getting shot from behind and Kira getting caught by surprise. And the Druggies laughing. I'll have to double check. It's been a while.
>>23507540>In Destiny one of Impulse's shots melts straight through the shoulder armor and a later hit again blows up one of the wings.To be fair, Freedom is like 3 years old by that point. Everyone has already upgraded their beam weapons. I remember some databook blurb about Impulse's rifle being equal in power to the old Freedom and Justice beam rifles.
>>23507581I remember that. Didn't he lose half the Freedom's head, though? It was a beam cannon, I think.
>>23507581I believe that was Calamity's bazooka and not a beam since we only see an explosion from behind Freedom that pushes it forward but not what was fired and Freedom takes no actual damage from it.
>>23507581>>23507592>>23507641
>>23507641You are thinking of Justice getting hit by Calamity.
>Kira and Terminal Engineers.So, Albert and Kira?
>>23503041>issue was there no one could block it,how can you block giant beam? you can't
>>23508384>how can you block giant beam?With your shield.
>>23502922Where are you pulling Freedom's acceleration from? They stopped listing propulsion strength when they started AUs.
>>23506778>he wasn't mentally stable anymoreMentally unstable pilots don't call back to their mothership to announce they're withdrawing from the battlefield. Quite the opposite, in fact.And Shams was a regular human, not an Extended.
CE still has the worst skilled grunts in the franchise and it's partly due to this.
>>23510744Only the Windam is garbage (oh, look! it got a kill against a ginn in the movie!! it doesnt matter that its an obsolete mook by ce 73!) fluffed over by side material.ZAKUs have a decent track record.
>>23512982I meant the pilots. They are retarded.
>>23513146The Winds pilots?
>>23513300Windam*
>>23507796Kira must have a fundamental problem guarding his left side. Because whenever he takes damage , it usually starts with the left.
>>23506708Question. When Chaos is flying, do those giant pods actively their thrusters to help with acceleration? Or do they just sit there and hang doing nothing?
>>23514803Yeah it actually needs those pod's and their thrusters to fly (barring an error in the original release where it deployed the pods in air which was removed on the remaster). When one of them gets damaged by the Murasame's it starts to drop like a rock.
>>23512982>>23513146I still can't get over the eventual "The Windam has VPS but most pilots can't be assed to turn it on" decision they came up with.
>>23505469bullshit, it has wings
One major thing I'm dislike about the whole CE timeline is the fucking everyone manages to shit trained soldiers, ready made weapons of war, population to support and the supply chain within less than a half a decade. There's not even a time of peace to rebuild everything.
>>23518772>I dislike about the whole CE timeline
>>23506322Kira have pstd from Killing Nicole (Original TV version not remastered)Basically, he chose to kill to protect his friends. But Nicole death is different. Kira just look at Nicole ambush attack, and before his brain can register it, his body subconsciously take most lethal yet most efficient way to kill Nicole with minimum movement
>>23518825Nicole's attack didn't even make sense. Why did he de-cloak? Did he think his phase shift missile lance would be enough to destroy Strike? Why not just shoot strike?
>>23519558He's defenseless while using the cloak and his beam arm was taken out.
>>23519590Yeah but Nicole could have gotten much closer. Why did he de-cloak so far away? Get up close behind Strike Gundam and THEN de-cloak.
>>23519558The whole "chasing the Archangel for 25 episodes" arc made NO SENSE. It served no point. Realistically, after they stole the Gundams the Athrun's team should have returned to Zaft and turned the Gundams over for inspection. Chasing the Archangel for so long served no purpose
>>23518825That’s true for the remaster, but the original had him fully reposition the sword and do a massive cleaving swing. That seemed incongruent with Kira killing on reflex so the animation director changed it.
>>23502820Can Strike Freedom use it's Dragoons on Earth? I know Chaos Gundam can do it so I wonder about Strike Freedom since it's nuclear powered.
>>23519813No. Chaos Gundam can't either. Well it can, but it can't fly without it's weapon pods attached so so it can only deploy them if it's on the ground. SF can't at all, the dragoons are too small to have enough thrust to fly. Neither can Legend's.
>>23519558His gun arm was sliced off and he can't run PS with cloak up. Plus he wanted to divert Kira's attention from Athrun.
>>23519652They turned in the data, which was enough for Zaft to start reverse engineering them without needing the actual MS present, which were far better used actually being fielded given they were better than anything else Zaft had at the time.
>>23519645I think that was originally the plan, but Athrun getting knocked on his ass in phase shift down caused that plan to go out of the window in favor of grabbing the Strike's attention.
>>23519652The Strike and Archangel were basically the only known hope the EA had of winning the mobile suit/ship arms race at this point, especially after the other Gundams were stolen. Of course they would try to shoot it down before it could get the ball rolling for more trouble. Also, they do turn the Gundams over for inspection.
>>23520314Surely the Archangel transmitted the data of the mobile shits to the EA. If Zaft can do it, then so can Archangel
>>23520496N Jammer's prevented that. If they could just transmit it so easily they'd never have to have gone on that long travel to HQ in the first place. Zaft couldn't do it either. Cruset and Athrun had to personally return to Plant to deliver the data, hence why they weren't there when the other 3 were attacking Artemis.
>>23506708i dont remember this, this is badass.
>>23520523I recall the Archangel joined up with an entire space fleet in orbit of Earth. And the EA are able to send communications between Earth and their Space bases on the Moon. So Archangel was definitely in range to send a message.
>>23525917The spacefleet got turned to mulch five seconds after meeting up with the Archangel. The only base the Archangel made contact with outside of that would have been Artemis, and that didn't pan out for obvious reasons.
>>23526404Are you telling me that during ALL those times, not a single transmission was made to EA headquarters?
>>23526412>ALLYou named two times, and again the second time that would have actually been productive wound up getting fucked up by ZAFT almost immediately.
>>23526445You do realize the EA are able to communicate with their other bases, including the moon, despite N-Jammers.
>>23526476You do realize the space fleet you yourself mentioned directed the Archangel to take the trip to headquarters.
>>23526506And?
>>23526513What do you mean "and?"
>>23526518Finish your thought.
>>23520523The problem with your theory is the EA headquarters was made aware of the Archantel's existence and information before the ship arrived. So some communication was possible.
>>23526476None of that changes the fact that this didn't get done at Artemis because the Earth Forces couldn't get out of their own way for five seconds before getting gunned down. Nor does it change the fact that they were literally ordered straight to Alaska because the big wigs down on Earth would have been too apathetic/out of touch to listen otherwise.
>>23526534NTA>before the ship arrived.When did they gain this information again?
>>23526548They linked up with the 8th fleet before descending to Earth. N-jammers may block conventional radio comms but laser communication is still viable.
>>23526768That... doesn't answer my question at all. When is Headquarters made aware of the Archangel's data is what I'm asking. If you're referring to the 8th fleet itself, they knew about the Archangel and Strike from the start.
>>23527339The original claim is that Archangel needed to go to Earth Alliance Headquarters because they needed to pass on the data and about G-Weapons and Archangel to the Alliance leaders, and wireless transmission is not possible. That's why Team Athrun chased them endlessly for 25 episodes. If the Earth Alliance leaders are aware of the Archangel before their arrival, then clearly that nullifies your (or the other anon's) original argument. Wireless transmission and communication IS possible. They aren't operating in a complete blackout.
>>23527339>When is Headquarters made aware of the Archangel's data is what I'm asking.Most definitely when Archangel docked at Orb. Since countries are able to communicate with eachother despite N-Jammers. But probably much earlier since Strike Daggers and the Dominion class ship were already in production before Archangel arrived at EA. And those used data from the Strike Gundam and Archangel in their construction.
It's one of those things that's inconsistent thanks to SEED's questionable writing. Yes people obviously talk to each other through communication frequently, but there's many many points where they can't just transmit important info, or otherwise call each other long distance to talk. AA seemingly did have some of the data transited to HQ since they have the Dagger's made without the Strike actually getting there. But on the other hand they still have the whole "We gotta take Strike and it's data to HQ in person no matter what" arc that's the first half of the series. They don't just transmit it and have AA remain with the 8th fleet and give it's significant firepower to fight Zaft in space instead the whole fleet sacrifices itself so AA can get to Earth. Likewise Rau can't just transmit the NJC data to Azrael for some reason he has to play out that whole gambit of Flay in the pod that just lucks out that Dominion gets her instead of AA because Kira's freaking out.It's something that happens all the way to Destiny. Athrun can't just call AA and tell them to stop messing around, he needs to find Milliaria in person, have her send a super encrypted vague message to AA and have Kira fly out to meet them. Towards the end, even though Eternal can contact AA to tell them they're in trouble and show them their projected course, Lacus has to put the Destiny Plan data in a pod with SF and IJ to drop to Earth, rather than transmit it immediately so that even if they get destroyed AA at least gets something. And there's the many times Durandal has to go meet up with Minerva in person to give them instructions rather than just call Talia from Plant.
>>23528189>Durandal has to go meet up with Minerva in person to give them instructions rather than just call Talia from Plant.Durandal can call Talia from PLANT, but he can't make booty calls from PLANT.
>>23528189>But on the other hand they still have the whole "We gotta take Strike and it's data to HQ in person no matter what" arc that's the first half of the series.Which is funny because when AA gets there, the EA leaders don't really give AF about the Archangel ship or its technology. In fact, they call the ship a headache and an annoyance. Then send the ship out to die while Joshua self-destructs.
>>23528200Well yeah they got there without the Strike and it's computer.
>>23528221Didn't they capture the Buster Gubdam though?
>>23528223Yeah but that's not gonna help the Dagger's or the OS problems. The Dagger's are based off the Strike, and they specifically wanted Kira's improvements he made to the OS, although in the end they didn't need it and made it workable with him.
>>23528189>Likewise Rau can't just transmit the NJC data to Azrael for some reason he has to play out that whole gambit of Flay in the pod that just lucks out that Dominion gets her instead of AA because Kira's freaking out.This one was actually explained. Rau wanted to leave it to fate. Good chance the Archangel got it instead. Good chance the EA won't use them for nukes if they have the choice. Instead, things went exactly as he expected.
>>23527959I didn't make that original claim. My main points were that either ZAFT or a combination of ZAFT and the EA got in the way for the opportunities listed. Besides that, the main reason Halberton gives us for the Archangel's mission is the EA's wall of apathy/dismissal. Case in point >>23528200He wanted them there in person so they'd be harder to turn away or ignore, put their foot in the door. The reason I asked about the timing was because I was wondering if Rau had a hand in Headquarters knowing ahead of time.
>>23528226EA doesn't want Dearkka's data on Buster? It's still a pretty effect suit.
>>23528200They care enough to make the Dominion. The Archangel itself is relatively disposable given they already have all the data.>>23528702The computers there had the data for the others. That's how the Buster Dagger was made. It's arguable that though the making and testing all happened at Heliopolis, it wasn't the only place that had the data because the Druggie machines were made too. They could've just had backups or copies of the data sent back to Eerth every now and then before ZAFT found out and Heliopolis go boom.
>>23528761>Buster Dagger Was this a good suit?
>>23528702From what it looked like with the Zaft suits they filled in the blanks in the OS with Zaft standard programming. Shortly after capture we see Athrun and several Zaft techs have plugged the Aegis into an external computer which is in turn plugged into something higher on the ship, and on the screen the Aegis is receiving data and Athrun is rebuilding the OS with it. That would seem to imply they used the Zaft OS from the ship's database to fix the incomplete EA OS that couldn't operate the suits properly (Athrun and the other guys tweak the OS's on scene to get the Gundam's moving but it doesn't seem like they can do much with them but fire vulcans and move in a straight line) which would be worthless to EA because most of their pilots can't use Zaft programming. Kira meanwhile seemed to actually correct and complete the OS as it was and was even able to set it to allow use by Naturals. So they'd want that one, not Dearka's.
>>23528572>He wanted them there in person so they'd be harder to turn away or ignore, put their foot in the door.Why would he care about that? Data is data. He wasn't sending them to HQ to keep them safe, once the data and MS was delivered they'd likely (if not the for the fact that Blue Cosmos loyalists were planning a takeover and would want them dead for making nice with a Coordinator but he doesn't know that at the time) be sent back out to fight in the war some more. It was all about the data which if he could have just transmitted it and been done he would have.
>>23528453>This one was actually explained. Rau wanted to leave it to fate.Did he or was he just being dramatic though? Rau pretty much had things set so he'd get what he wanted either way, and actively encouraged Zala's paranoia as well as set things so that only the crazies would be in charge by then. For all his talk about fate he always seemed to rig things heavily in his favor.
>>23527959>>23527339Well, there's also a huge difference between sending a quick and simple encrypted message that says "we're alive. send help. meet here." which is how the 8th fleet came to their aid, or choosing to transmit tons of confidential, sensitive "change the course of the war" data that might require staying in place for hours or days and sending large EM bursts is sort of like the opposite of hiding, pretty much inviting enemies to check out what's going on here with a giant flare in the form of military signals intelligence.>>23528871>For all his talk about fate he always seemed to rig things heavily in his favor.It's always nice to benefit himself, he wasn't one of those people who wanted to live life hard and challenge himself. Besides, he also tips the war in the EA's favor by giving them the data on N-jammer cancelers. Really, he was in favor of doing stuff if it escalated the war.
>>23528862>and was even able to set it to allow use by NaturalsWhen did that happen? The only person to attempt piloting the Strike other than Kira was Sai, who fell over inside the Archangel's hangar. Kira didn't program a Natural OS until the episode where Orb secretly sheltered the Archangel and had them stay over, and that was pretty much right before the Strike got suicide bombed by the Aegis.
>>23528948The Archangel stayed in orbit for at least a day with the fleet. Plenty of time to send a message.
>>23528958He didn't do it to Strike, but given he made the OS for the Astray's natural friendly by tweaking several things he could have with their OS, which would have made it far more valuable to whatever OS the Buster had installed.
>>23528189>Athrun can't just call AA and tell them to stop messing around, he needs to find Milliaria in person, have her send a super encrypted vague message to AA and have Kira fly out to meet themIsn't that just Athrun wanting to meet up with his friends in person so they can have an actual conversation on neutral ground? >>23528865That's not what Halberton is saying at all. It's not about protecting the Archangel, it's about sending the Archangel in person because he doesn't think Headquarters will listen or care otherwise.>>23528761They cared enough eventually. Lord knows when, and under whose influence. That said, the fact that they learned about the Archangel to whatever extent they did and ultimately left them to make it on their own (giving ZAFT the chance to damage the Strike, destroy the Aegis, and displace Kira) further proves Halberton's point about their leadership. I don't think he realized just how bad it was though. >>23528992>At least a dayWhere are you getting this from?
>>23502820>Thinks people are upset at the absurdity>Not the fact that this is indiscriminate fire manages to be pinpoint nonlethal 100% of the timeYou're retarded
>>23502820>SFFuck that. The problem literally starts with the first Freedom's beamspam. >freedom jumps in an active battlefield literraly everyone is an ennemy> Kira enters Seed Mode to activate a fully automated targeting system.> While standing utterly still somehow hit countless moving targets in a 360° area around it.>Nobody dodge, nobody put up a shield.> Blowing up an arm is somehow a "disabling shot,">Despite STANDING UTTERLY STILL, nobody fucking shoot at Freedom while Kira give his long ass speech about the base blowing up.Full burst was retarded from day one and came just after Kira literraly respawned in Lacus' bedroom after being burned alive. It deserves all the mockery it received over the last 20+ years.
>using "haters" unironicallywhat year is it?
>>23529253>It's not about protecting the Archangel, it's about sending the Archangel in person because he doesn't think Headquarters will listen or care otherwise.Why would they not care about the data they need to complete their MS. Data is data. What are they gonna ignore it if it's not personally handed them and say screw you guys we don't want your data.
Halburton wanted to send AA to Alaska to not only deliver Strike and it's data to bolster the MS development, but also have Murrue warn the brass on his behalf about how they have to take the war more seriously since 4 of their MS were stolen and Zaft would improve their own MS with it. On the other hand, that's yet more evidence that long distance communication is not reliable, since he should be able to call them and report to the brass himself which would be way more effective with a fleet Admiral saying all this than sending a low ranking officer to talk on his behalf. Indeed when AA does get to a major base the brass there don't really give two shits about what Murrue has to say to them.
>>23513300Nameless pilots in general. This >>23529379 is why I said the grunts of the Cosmic Era are the worst skilled in the franchise. This shit happening constantly does not make Kira look godly, it makes the people getting hit look retarded.
>>23529749Sometimes in politics and in the military, it's better to go in person if you want to emphasize your point and try to convince people.
>>23502820Rewatching this now and I would've bet a lot that the first use of Meteor was the birth of Jesus scene in Alaska. Kinda disappointed to see it was wasted in a recap episode already. Even more disappointed that that recap was followed up with two consecutive partial recap episodes
>>23529379It's not even the only time when "MS float in the air and nobody even considers to shoot back" even happens. See >>23505144
>>23529253>>23529789>because he doesn't think Headquarters will listen or care otherwise.>They cared enough eventually.Care about what? From what we see on the show, the only thing the top brass of the Earth Alliance really "cared about" was wantonly killing Coordinators.>>23529749For the zillionth time, despite all the stuff SEED lazily copies from 0079, this isn't "the White Base having to get the Learning Computer data to Jaburo in order to get the GM on the frontlines". While something along those lines happened with Kira helping Morgenrote get the M1 to work with Natural pilots, there was nothing of value that the Archangel gave to JOSH-A, to the extent that they left the Buster to rot in the ship's hangar.They already had an MS program underway with both a basic grunt unit for the bulk of the forces, and a trio of over-spec units under Blue Cosmos' direct command. They didn't use anything from the Heliopolis units other than the basic template.
>>23528992>The Archangel stayed in orbit for at least a day with the fleet. Plenty of time to send a message.>>23529253>Where are you getting this from?The official timeline:https://web.archive.org/web/20050429015158/http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/timeline.htmlFebruary 11>Just before its rendezvous with the 8th Fleet, the Archangel battles three GAT-X series machines. [PHASE-11]February 13>Flay Allster, Sai Argyle, Tolle Koenig, Miriallia Haw, Kuzzey Buskirk, and Kira Yamato formally enlist in the Earth Alliance forces. [PHASE-12]>The Archangel attempts to descend to Earth, but comes under attack from the Le Creuset team. The 8th Fleet is annihilated in the ensuing battle. [PHASE-13]This means that the Archangel rendezvoused with the 8th Fleet on February 12.
>>23530181How does any of what you said even remotely relate to what >>23529789said? >>23529961Those points were all nonsense, though. I think you'd be better off arguing for yourself than leaning on such drek.
>The sharpshooting mobile suit piloted by a sharpshooting ace is super accurateAnon, you can't have seriously been thinking this was the problem all along.
>>23530497Meant for >>23529354
>>23530458Because everything that Halberton was arguing about ended up being irrelevant:"get the Archangel, the G-weapon and all its data to Alaska">they had an MS program well underway without any of its data being essential"ZAFT keeps deploying new weapons while the number of EA soldiers dying is a figure on paper!">the EA brass never cared about the lives of its men, to the extent they killed a bunch of them just to spite ZAFT, and deployed them with MS that were disabled on their very first deploymentIn hindsight, it makes Halberton look oblivious as to the nature of the war as a whole, and of its own faction in particular.The most generous interpretation I can make is that, at this stage of the story, the writers still intended the Earth Alliance to be basically a reskinnned Federation from UC: sure, there's a radical wing stirring up shit from the inside, but it's still more or less sensible. Come Alaska, and they're all suddenly straight-up evil motherfuckers spewing Blue Cosmos's motto, no nuance whatsoever.
>>23530506>they had an MS program well underway without any of its data being essentialAren't the Strike Daggers based off the Strike's data anyway?>the EA brass never cared about the lives of its men, to the extent they killed a bunch of them just to spite ZAFT, and deployed them with MS that were disabled on their very first deployment...Isn't that literally just proving his point that EA's leadership is shit? He's pissed at the EA treating the human cost of the war so callously, resisting the idea of the G project all while practically sending their men into a chipper with weapons like picrel. At most, he gave them too much credit for considering them them capable of being reasoned with. There's no need to cope about the matter. Halberton thought the EA's leadership was shit but either didn't know just how much or they got worse over the course of the war thanks to Azrael and Rau.
>>23530606>Aren't the Strike Daggers based off the Strike's data anyway?Yep. In fact, they sped up development and production by intentionally stripping out the Strike-specific features. In a way, the base model Strike Dagger ends up having some overlap with the other models like Long\Duel Dagger but it was worth it to them to churn out units as quickly and cheaply as possible. Also, I'm more or less sure that hardware and engineering-wise, the 5 Gundams were already more or less perfected. The EA has no trouble building out the better "105" Dagger and additional Strike Gundams later. The only thing they were missing was an OS for Naturals. I don't actually think Kira's Strike would have been THAT useful for the EA since its OS was largely customized for Kira's use, but the Alliance probably would have separated Kira from the rest of the Archangel crew at JOSH-A and keep him as a virtual prisoner to develop a Natural-use OS
>>23530606>>23530729>Aren't the Strike Daggers based off the Strike's data anyway?Apart from the baseline GAT-X design, not really. Or, at least, nothing that would specifically require Kira's Strike or its data for its development.>Also, I'm more or less sure that hardware and engineering-wise, the 5 Gundams were already more or less perfected. The EA has no trouble building out the better "105" Dagger and additional Strike Gundams later.Incorrect on the basis that the EA didn't build more "baseline" Strikes apart from Kira's unit, since Mwu's and Cagalli's were Morgenröte's. Afterwards, they did iterate on the design with the E model, and what effectively was an MP variant with the Windam.>Halberton thought the EA's leadership was shit but either didn't know just how muchHence his obliviousness in hindsight. And even "hindsight" is being generous; the EA had already fired a nuke at a civilian habitat, so it's not a case of merely an outmoded high-command, but rather him fighting an entirely different war (defeat ZAFT) than the one his superiors were waging (exterminate Coordinators whatever the cost to their side).
>>23530792>Incorrect on the basis that the EA didn't build more "baseline" Strikes apart from Kira's unitThe EA did make more Strike Gundams. They experimented with different backpacks.
>>23530792>Hence his obliviousness in hindsightBut he was right on the money with his criticism. I don't see why we're ignoring the point that the EA also got worse over the course of the war as a cause for the disrepancy. But even aside from all this...what does any of this matter? Perhaps he's fighting a different war than the one some of his superiors were fighting (though even as late as the second half of SEED, we have at least one guy wanting to use their regained nukes to handle the energy crisis instead of nuking ZAFT off the map (although he acquiesces to Azrael in the end)), but is that really so strange an occurence in Gundam, let alone real life? I just don't see what's worth griping about here.
>>23530842>at least one guy wanting to use their regained nukes to handle the energy crisis instead of nuking ZAFT off the mapNot that anon, but I think his suggestion was to use funding to build N-Jammer cancellors and restart nuclear power plants again. Apparently N-Jammers aren't cheap and are quite expensive from what I read.So the military spent a literal massive fortune to equip hyper expensive NJCs onto all their nuclear missiles. So when Kira and Athrun shoot down those nukes, it was a massive blow to the military budget.By then events of Seed Freedom, the EA military was broke. It was cheaper to ask ZAFT to remotely turn off the N-Jammers, than it was to build N-Jammers cancellors. The EA literally couldn't afford to make them.
>23530142>He's at it again
>>23530842>But he was right on the money with his criticism.Devoid of context, he appears sensible. When you consider what's actually going on with the EA (the disregard for their own soldiers' lives as a tactical choice by the top brass, rather than just an effect of being poorly equipped), it comes off as naïve.>the EA also got worse over the course of the war Except it didn't "get worse", because the whole thing got started, to repeat myself, when the Earth Alliance nuked a space colony. Not a military facility, a civilian habitat. Shit was bad right from the get-go.>but is that really so strange an occurrence in Gundam, let alone real life?The "gripe" is that you have a top military commander, head of a numbered fleet, not only thinking his pet project was in any way relevant to the overall war effort, but also disregarding the fact that the army he was fighting for was actually this side of the Einsatzgruppen.Either he was utterly ignorant about the top brass or outright stupid. If I want to get even harsher, he was willingly looking away at the virulent Blue Cosmos ideology all around him and just pretended it didn't affect his command, effectively doing a Guderian/Manstein.
>>23530888What's there to argue? Just like the unseen mooks that >>23529379 points out just letting themselves get shot by the Freedom's beamspam, without putting up a fight or even blocking him. Kira and Athrun do nothing when three dangerous foes just suddenly stop fighting, instead of blasting them on the spot.
>>23530894>(the disregard for their own soldiers' lives as a tactical choice by the top brass, rather than just an effect of being poorly equipped)Not every battle is JOSH-A, anon. There wasn't any tactical advantage to sending their own pilots to die in droves against the GINNS with their shit mobile armors, hence why Halberton bothered making the push for the G-Project, and why the EA finally bit on the offer after initially rejecting it in the first place. >Except it didn't "get worse", because the whole thing got started, to repeat myself, when the Earth Alliance nuked a space colony. Not a military facility, a civilian habitat. Shit was bad right from the get-go.>The Earth Alliance declares war against the PLANTs, and an invasion force sets out from the Ptolemaeus lunar base. Meanwhile, Blue Cosmos loyalists in the military secretly load a nuclear missile aboard the mobile armor carrier RooseveltBlue Cosmos acted on their own with Junius 7. >not only thinking his pet project was in any way relevant to the overall war effortIt was, though. From the Seed world and Mechanics>The Earth Alliance's first mass-produced mobile suit, which was based on data from the prototype Strike Gundam>but also disregarding the fact that the army he was fighting for was actually this side of the Einsatzgruppen.He would be disregarding the fact if he wasn't actively sending the Archangel down to them in order to try and talk some sense into them. If you want to call it naive, I can agree with that.
>>23530898I don't think you grasp how quickly fights happen in real-time during Gundam. It was stated by the director and staff that they slow battles down for the sake of clarity and helping viewers understand what's happening.When Kira firs Freedom's guns, he's not literally floating there helpless for 20 seconds locking onto targets. And all enemies standing in awe of Freedom as they get shot. Nope. The "real time action" is happening very fast. Kira is doing it all within mere seconds.
Can you not understand that the Freedom entering full-burst mode is maybe something that happens in a second at most in-universe? Or are you saying the GINNs and DINNs should have blocked an attack that blindsided them with their imaginary shields? (which totally would have survived anyway). Maybe dodge the attack that they again did not see coming in the second they had to react? >Kira and Athrun are baffled on their first run-in with drug addicts piloting mobile suits What a shock.
>>23530933>Not every battle is JOSH-A, anon. JOSH-A isn't even the first time they used a microwave trap in the lore>Blue Cosmos acted on their own with Junius 7.This is as retarded as assuming Durandal had nothing to do with the two assassination attempts on Lacus. Blue Cosmos is defacto leader of the EA with Azrael calling the shots.
>>23530943>Can you not understand that the Freedom entering full-burst mode is maybe something that happens in a second at most in-universe?If you want to know how fast Seed suits move, look at the Battle of Orb for a perfect example.When Justice Gundam arrives and helps Freedom, everyone on the battlefield looks up and sees the Druggies fighting Justice and Freedom Gundam in the sky. It's literally a bunch of high speed blurs smashing into eachother in the sky. It's like a Dragonball Z fight. Everyone is amazed. THAT'S how quickly Freedom moves in real time.
>>23530946>JOSH-A isn't even the first time they used a microwave trap in the loreThe point still stands. >Blue Cosmos is defacto leader of the EA with Azrael calling the shots.Blue Cosmos muscling in on the EA still would have been relatively recent, and especially to this extent.
I know you all are arguing about something else, but I just wanted to drop in and say that Yzak is a child murderer and committed war crimes. I can forgive every character EXCEPT him. He absolutely deserves to be executed, and/OR at the very least stripped of his rank never serve in the Zaft military again.I cannot believe fans have accepted HIM. Yzak killed pic related. It disgusts me when they try to do cute things with Yzak like pairing him up with girls and the Director joking about Yzak. Yzak killed children. How can the Japanese forget that?
>>23530956Yeah, they honestly could have done a little better with his redemption arc. Or maybe not make him an unintentional child killer. Wasn't he originally planned to die?
>>23530181>For the zillionth time, despite all the stuff SEED lazily copies from 0079, this isn't "the White Base having to get the Learning Computer data to Jaburo in order to get the GM on the frontlines". While something along those lines happened with Kira helping Morgenrote get the M1 to work with Natural pilots, there was nothing of value that the Archangel gave to JOSH-A, to the extent that they left the Buster to rot in the ship's hangar.That is exactly what they were doing. It's stated several times. They fail on that. They lose the Strike and it's data right before they make it to JOSHA and it turns out the brass didn't need it anyway and wanted to kill them because they were Coordinator sympathizers but that was their goal. They weren't driving around Earth for fun and they weren't ordered to fight all that Zaft along the way that was just the way their path to JOSHA took them. In fact the original plan was to drop right from orbit to Alaska and skip the entire journey and give the data and Strike there where it probably would have been helpful. Instead they had to descend early to not get blown up in orbit and then had to alter their path to save Kira from burning up which added weeks to their travel time at which point EA had already caught up.
>>23530954there's no way "they acted alone", you're saying the EA military was infiltrated by a ragtag team of idealistic blueys who pulled off heisting a nuke, loading it onto the ship, strapping it to the moebius, and getting close enough to launch it at the PLANTs? at minimum the entire ship's crew was in on it since it's a fucking 10+ meter long nuclear missile, there's no hiding that shitbesides, it's fucking safe to say the entire EA from the highest general to the lowest recruit were secretly rooting for them, they sure as fuck didn't feel embarrassed by the incident or try to de-escalate the situation, and they sure as fuck didn't try to unfuck the blue-cosmos-ifcation of their entire forces, they LET it continue until Azrael could openly stroll into a room of generals and politicians and they all had to respect him
>>23530867From what I remember they require rare metal that Plant has in abundance (hence why they make all those NJC equipped Gundam's) but is very hard to find on Earth. So yeah Azrael wasting most of their supply attaching them to missiles that would get blown up just wasted a fuck ton of their money and resources.
>>23530971>you're saying the EA military was infiltrated by a ragtag team of idealistic blueys who pulled off heisting a nuke, loading it onto the ship, strapping it to the moebius, and getting close enough to launch it at the PLANTs? What makes you think I'd even have to be saying that? >there's no hiding that shitYou can't secretly load something that isn't being hidden. >try to de-escalate the situationAnon, it's a nuked colony. How the fuck do you even go about de-escalating that, especially given recent history? >they LET it continue until Azrael could openly stroll into a room of generals and politicians and they all had to respect himNote how they're still calling Azrael out (repping BC here) for acting on his own with J7 even as he's entering these meetings?
>>23530943Because that's wrong. Freedom remained stationary in full burst during Kira's entire announce about the cyclops system, shooting like 200 mses while doing so. I'm okay with maybe the first 3 salvos to "blindside" people but at some point it's just plain stupid for nobody to react.>>23530941>It was stated by the director and staff that they slow battles down for the sake of clarity and helping viewers understand what's happening.What an amazingly broad and vague statement regarding a franchise that proabably add 50 different director by now. I'm sure you can give me a source for that quote and that that man spoke for everybody , Fukuda included.
>>23531035Gundam seed has only ever had 1 director.
>>23531038>Gundam seed has only ever had 1 director.Then finding the interview where he says this will be much easier.
>>23531035>Freedom remained stationary in full burst during Kira's entire announce about the cyclops system,Wrong. Re-watch the scene again. Kira was moving.
>>23531060Don't bother. This retard hasn't known a good faith argument in his life. Pretty sure he's the same shitter from that Dullindal thread.
>>23531145>>23531060>moving
>>23531309>not the scene when Kira broadcasts the message.Your bait is awful.
>>23531672https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XQvFjprhm0&t=871s
>>23531757You do realize we can just back up the footage 20 seconds to see that you are lying right? Terrible bait.
>>23531766 >Kira standing still while giving his speech>No one shooting at him while people explode all around him>LyingSure, my man. The scene is right there, it speaks for itself. Whatever makes you feel better.
>>23531772So your new plan is it to just pretend the 20 seconds (with Freedom moving guns deployed) before your timecode doesn't exist eh? How boring. Don't waste our time.
>>23531757Kira is literally moving forward while broadcasting. Do you not see the speed lines in the cockpit and the Freedom moving forward to covet the Archangel? It's not standing still. Get your eyes checked.
>>23531783>>23531794>Gave a capture.>Linked the sceneMaybe you're trolling. Maybe you're genuine and retarded. I've done more than enough.
>>23531757The Freedom isn't standing still.If you watch 30 seconds before your link, the Freedom is boosting ahead and providing covering fire for the EA fleet and the Archangel.Freedom is breaking the Zaft blockage as the Archangel and EA fleet moves forward.Freedom is moving WITH the fleet and firing as it moves to escape.
>>23531808>I've done more than enough.You haven't done anything. No one agrees with you.
>>23530975That's my problem with Blue Cosmo. It's fine if they want to wage a war, but why are all them idiots? Not a single one of them is a good long term planner? Azrael's only plan was to get some nukes, use his 3 Gundams, and charge head first to attack Zaft. Did he not consider that Zaft would ALSO have nukes and their own weapons of mass destruction? Fool!Same thing Djibril. I recall a conversation in Seed Destiny where he was talking to the President of EA and he was telling to strike at Zaft. But the President was saying that they haven't fully recovered yet from the last war and need more time to build up their forces. But Djibril told him not to worry about it. To just attack and vaguely hinted at mobile armors would win the war for them.Blue cosmos doesn't have a single long term planner or competent leader.
>>23532092they were written to lose, even moreso than than most gundam villain factions
>>23530971>>23530984According to the fact files on the Bloody Valentine, that's more or less what happened. A minority of EA guys who were secretly BC zealots personally loyal to Azrael snuck a nuke onboard an EA ship that being deployed as a show of intimidation and when Zaft's defense force deployed as well Azrael ordered the BC guys to load the nuke and deploy it in the confusion. Then EA basically had to own it since their own troops did it and they were debating war anyway and the war broke out. What I think they were trying to do but did a poor job of it, like most SEED writing, is that BC was a minority at first, but as the war when on everyone who wasn't BC was either killed (The Artemis guys, Halburton's fleet, everyone that was sacrificed in Alaska) sent so far away from the action they'd be unable to have any clue what was going on or do anything (what was supposed to happen to Mu until he ignored orders and rejoined the AA) or were so in the minority they couldn't do anything (Everyone that basically calls Azrael out as being a violent retard but is ignored). Similar to how in Zaft everyone not part of Patrick's crazy kill the Naturals party was either killed, arrested, or joined the Clyne Faction.
>>23532100The Vagans and Titans still edge them out. >>23532209Didn't the EA literally declare war three days prior to the inident? As for doing a poor job...how so? Not only are you able to make a case for the supposed intent you've found, but you have the lore to back it up as well.
>>23531889>Ad populum fallacy>talks about debating in good faith.
>>23532428>The Vagans and Titans still edge them out.no duh why do you think he said "most"
>>23532511>Ad populum fallacyLmao. You even got the fallacy wrong."Ad populum fallacy" is only a logical fallacy when you are trying to prove something is TRUE.For example:>This thing is clearly true because everyone says it's true. I don't need evidence. I believe everyone.Ad populum fallacy does NOT apply in reverse when trying to disprove something.
>>23530933>There wasn't any tactical advantage to sending their own pilots to die in droves against the GINNS with their shit mobile armorsAnd what was the tactical advantage of killing scores of their own just to deny ZAFT a win? TWICE.>Blue Cosmos acted on their own with Junius 7.That's not how it works. Even if Blue Cosmos's sympathizers loaded nukes on a carrier in secret, the command responsibility for firing them goes all the way to the top. Commanders are responsible for the actions of their men. Otherwise, you'd have a rogue force running around wearing your own colors. Basically, what >>23530971 said.>If you want to call it naive, I can agree with that."Naïve" is selling it cheap. Considering the way that the EA pursued the war right until the end (prioritizing the killing of Coordinator civilians over military targets), the only reasonable explanation is that Halberton was overlooking the reality around him: "hundreds of our men died in Endymion by our own hand; surely the G-Project and sending the Archangel personally will make the brass listen to reason and stop them from treating the force like numbers!">>23530954>Blue Cosmos muscling in on the EA still would have been relatively recent, and especially to this extent.The Earth Alliance itself is recent, and Blue Cosmos had a whole campaign of terrorism going on for years before the war's outbreak. Even Azrael admits that he'd been calling the shots all along.
>>23534378>And what was the tactical advantage of killing scores of their own just to deny ZAFT a win? TWICE.Endymion might possibly have been an accident. The system was installed there to melt ice rapidly into water for their water supply and overloaded during the battle, supposedly as an accident and also some suspected it was intentional it was never figured out one way or the other. It did however inspire them to deliberately use it for the second incident (the Cyclops system had no purpose there but to kill everyone) but that WAS a massive tactical advantage because Zaft had gone all in on operation spitbreak and sent 80 percent of their forces as part of the attack most of whom were killed. The losses there effectively made Zaft winning the war conventionally without Genesis impossible which is exactly what Rau wanted (and he deliberately didn't tell them Genesis was in development) It was also a very strong political move for the Atlantic Federation because the European forces being killed gave them effective control of the EA from then on.
>>23534378>And what was the tactical advantage of killing scores of their own just to deny ZAFT a win? TWICE.What does any of what you said do to even remotely refute my point? >That's not how it worksObviously the leadership has to roll with the punches after Azrael pulled the trigger, but the fact that they fired a shot on their own without said leadership's expressed knowledge or knowledgeable consent remains. >Naïve" is selling it cheap. Considering the way that the EA pursued the war right until the end (prioritizing the killing of Coordinator civilians over military targets)Except again, things didn't start out this bad. >>23534719As written here, the Atlantic Federation (the side most strongly influenced by BC by now) wound up gaining more political dominance of the EA following JOSH-A, meaning more direct influence under BC/Azrael, who himself is blatantly growing more unhinged as the war goes on.In Artemis , the Eurasian Federation offered Kira protection in return for his services. You think that would have happened in the second half of the series?>Surely providing a means of fighting ZAFT that doesn't require killing our men in droves will prevent the leadership from making that our modus operandi!I mean, even if Endymion was an inside job, the Leadership presumably aren't doing it because they get off on it. Expecting things to change a bit with mobile suits entering the picture isn't some unreasonable demand unless you have knowledge that ZAFT is building some doomsday weapon that takes things back to square one.
>>23534378>The Earth Alliance itself is recentIt still would have existed in some capacity for at least a decade or two before Blue Cosmos started getting more entrenched in the military. >Blue Cosmos had a whole campaign of terrorism going on for years before the war's outbreakThat again doesn't do anything to refute the point being made.>Even Azrael admits that he'd been calling the shots all alongHe's clearly talking about who's calling the shots in the Dominion in the clip you sent.
>>23502820Rewatching now and it feels like he should've done a whole lot more with it. At the part where Orb just got wiped because he spent 2 episodes just shooting pointlessly at the druggies beam reflection shit, when at any point he could just throw out 2-3 full bursts to wipe (well, cripple because Kira) that entire fleet (which was way bigger than it should've been considering Alaska and Panama happened 5 minutes earlier).Had plenty of time to do it while they were regrouping so they wouldn't even be able to send out those Strike Daggers which were conveniently able to wreck the M1s despite being shittier (and more importantly, ugly as fuck)