Zeta and ZZ Gundam are not two separate shows. They're two seasons of the same TV show.
yep only 0079 is good
>>23573671Okay.And?
Seed and Destiny aren't two separate shows. They're 100 episodes of Kira wank.
Zeta = Kill Bill vol. 1ZZ = Kill Bill vol. 2
>>23573697It means they partially wrote Zeta Gundam with the assumption they had a whole second year in mind.
>>23573738https://www.gundamunofficial.com/production/gundamzz.html>Even in the planning stages of Mobile Suit Z Gundam, it's said that director Yoshiyuki Tomino had envisioned the long-awaited followup to Mobile Suit Gundam running for two years. And in the November 1986 issue of Newtype magazine, Tomino claims he began planning for the second year of Z Gundam in the summer of 1985>Officially speaking, however, the project was launched in October 1985. At this point the main sponsor, toy manufacturer Bandai, approached the Nippon Sunrise animation studio about a continuation of Z Gundam.
>>23573751So that's a yes?
>>23573773I like how we naturally assume every response is a sabotage or insult
A lot of people say Hamans character was ruined in ZZ but I really wonder if she was just meant to be secretly pathetic and vain like Char. Perhaps she only latches onto Judau because shes desperate after being rejected by Char, and this is what shes really like at her lowest.
>>23574202She didn't have a character in Zeta besides "angry that Char dumper her".
>>23574202yes
Z & ZZ were rehashing Heavy Metal L-Gaim. I mean, Zeta debuted the week after L-Gaim concluded. I wish Zeta and ZZ weren't blatant recycles of L-Gaim and even Dunbine concepts that Tomino utilized.
>>23573671>>23573738>>23573773>>23574202Judau and Glemmy were never meant to be main characters.Char was supposed to be the main character as he starts a Zeon Civil War against Haman.Then Tomino got funding approval for CCA movie and didn't want to waste Char on ZZ.
>>23574984>Judau and Glemmy were never meant to be main characters.That actually makes OP's case stronger since Zeta had a big focus on Kamille and Char's relationship. So one or both of them still being in the main character seat while the new characters were on the sidelines makes sense for a show with 2 seasons.
>>23574984>Char was supposed to be the main character as he starts a Zeon Civil War against Haman.No, even in the earliest version, when it was still just "Zeta part 2", Judau takes over as the protagonist.https://zeonic-republic.net/?page_id=10078Not fully translated by Zeonic, but there's the Japanese text herehttp://kaito2198.blog43.fc2.com/blog-entry-344.html
>>23575021Yeah and had Zeta Part 2 not been a thing, we wouldn't have gotten Kamille brain blasted at the end of Zeta.
>>23574202I actually like that Judau's presence is enough to make any woman lower their guard and stop their bullshit. His presence alone would've been enough to fix Rosammy, Four, Reccoa and keep a nice, lighthearted ambient in the AEUG during the events of Zeta. With him on board, neither Kamille nor Char would've turned the way they did.After 100+ episodes of everyone being a miserable piece of shit comes this guy that's just great all around all because he has friends and a cute little sister.One of my favorite scenes is when Ple tells to Judau "I love you" and he doesn't reciprocate. Char would've reciprocated just to find a way to use her Newtype abilities until she died pointlessly, Kamille would've reciprocated both out of guilt born of not saving Four and because he had deep emotional needs, Amuro might have returned the "I love you" in a more platonic sense.In that moment all those lesser men would've detonated an emotional landmine but Judau didn't: he had enough emotional intelligence and was responsible enough to realize that reciprocating her feelings would've been terrible for both of them.I love my nigga Judau. It's a shame that the first half of his show is absolutely atrocious.
>>23575021Nah Tomino changed his mind once CCA got funded. Glemmy was originally just called "Soldier A" and just a background character.
>>23575632My point is that Judau was the protagonist even before Char was removed from the show.
>>23575628I feel the same way about ZZ as I do Star Trek Voyager. I love DS9 and Zeta to death, but Voyager and ZZ I dropped. There is something about both those shows where I just find the main cast boring.I believe people think inoffensive equals likeable. Like Elle and Roux dont have any offending complex qualities like Reccoa did so they are better characters to some people.Kamille actually had a personality, even if it was unlikeable. The fact that I can't find a flaw in Judau's character makes me actively hate him.
>>23575708In before somebody lists off a superficial character flaw Judau has like "he is too headstrong" or "he loves his sister too much".Judau is just fucking boring to me.
>>23574984>Then Tomino got funding approval for CCA movie and didn't want to waste Char on ZZ.Then why did he write CCA like Char dethroned Haman?
>>23575721Haman wishes he dethroned her WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA!
Screw it I'm hiding this thread. I only made it so I could bitch about shitty continuity
>>23575741I really wish I didn't give a shit about character writing so much my bad.
>>23575752No I'm doing this because of how someone obviously wants to derail this thread into a Haman picdump.
>>23575708>>23575715Judau was annoying, irresponsible and brash for the first half of the show. In equal measure than Kamille, in fact, but without the childish outbursts. During the series he quickly adapted and accepted his new role as a member of the AEUG because he felt it was the right thing to do, unlike Amuro who was forced to become a soldier or Kamille who did so during a tantrum.The second half of the series is good and Judau becomes a responsible, likeable guy towards the end. To me this was a nice change of pace after 100+ episodes of everyone being a piece of shit.>Elle and RouxBoth of them are boring, sure, but I don't see how anyone can prefer Reccoa over them. She had zero personality for most of the series and then her motivation to become a war criminal was paper thin.Elle, Roux, Ple and everyone else was a mess whenever Judau was not on-screen. He is the thing that kept the group together and it worked because he needed the rest of the group's support to succeed. Judau needed his friends as much as they needed him.Kamille is my favorite character, by the way. I found Judau and his friends to be extremely annoying at first but they grew on me as the series went on.
Do people really hate Haman or do they just hate Haman fans? I am seriously asking.
>>23575871Why would anyone sane hate a character?
>>23575871Why would anyone sane hate Haman-sama?
>>23575871I believe, Haman fans and Cima are the same, way too obsessed with wanting a mommy gf and can be sometimes very annoying.
>>23575871This is the first time I hear about people hating Haman. I checked a lot of places and she is usually one of the most beloved characters.
Stop dumping your image folder.
>>23575944Make me faggot.
>>23575946Isn't it a bannable offense to phonepost?
>>23575952At one point watching Naruto was a b&. I miss Snacks.
>>23575954Why don't they ban daily chapter storytimes, they're a waste of precious lebensraum.
>>23575956Never make me Google Nazi words again.
>>23575958Says the guy posting Zeek waifus.
>>23575946post row 10 column 7 NOW
>>23575721What do you mean? Tomino wrote CCA with Char being disgusted with Haman and everything she represented. That's why Char refused to use any of Axis Zeon's ships or suits. Char's Neo Zeon used brand new ships, symbols, and new mobile suits. Char viewed Haman as trash.
>>23575978
>>23575715judau is a frivolous dumbfuck at the start and he becomes more mature and responsible. he has one of the cleanest, tightest character arcs in the franchise.
>>23576073Maybe I thats why dislike him then because I find him boring.
>>23576002>Char's Neo Zeon used brand new ships, symbols, and new mobile suits.To sell new toys.
>>23575871ZZ skipper here, Haman was a pretty bland on Zeta, but she works really well as a foil for Char. She's essentially a simple bad guy who acts as a projection of the inner conflicts and sins of Char. Ultimately, that's a credit to Char's character, not hers. On top of that, she's the weakest major antagonist in Z paling in comparison to the Titans or Scirocco.Even though I like her, it's only conditionally. But yeah, in my experience, the majority of Haman fans are just a lot of horny, stupid people.
>>23576153Haman seems bland in Zeta because she's acting as Axis' leader. She pretends to be how an Axis leader should be.There is a brief moment in which Kamille has a newtype connection with her and he noticed there's another side of her that she doesn't show anyone right before she forcefully cuts the connection. ZZ explores that side of Haman which surfaces whenever Judau is on scene.Anyone that claims ZZ ruined Haman never really understood the character to begin with. She's doing the exact same thing Char does.
>finished Zeta Gundam's last episode>basically knew what I was getting into>still feel the emotional gravity weight of it and just want to lie down because the finale punched me in the stomach repeatedly>Char still has faith in the next generation, fights rather well in a 2v1 with a mobile suit not even customized for newtypes, doesn't even hesitate risking his life to get Kamille or rescue Haman>an anon described Emma as the consistently sanest character whose thing is "don't you people realize we're in a war", and to the end she's a strong trooper with her eyes on the goal, ignoring the fact that she said some weird space magic shit about the Zeta>we see all our dead friends as better people finally at peace>Fa's consistently one of the best girls, risking her life in the dinkiest mobile suit on the Argama, blasting Haman just so Kamille could get to safety, and she's rewarded with this finaleBefore, I was ready to enjoy ZZ despite its tonal shift just because I wanted to like ZZ, but now if ZZ started as the saddest show in the world I probably would have dropped it or killed myself or both.
Guys, you told me that Stardust was an absolute shit. What the hell? I finished it and it had a lot of great moments even if the show was a slog and the last 3 episodes were a mess.
>>23577232>guys what do you mean apart from the complete clusterfuck clusterflop of an ending, it still had some good partsBasically yeah. It starts to plummet in quality soon after the protag has the gay love song montage with the guy piloting the crab thing, but a lot of the other parts are fine. It's just that it feels like the bad stuff overshadows the acceptable parts, because how the fuck do you salvage that ending.
>>23577241The ending is really funny>in the end MC... won the betraying bitchI guess I need to be more mature about Nina but it really looked like they mocked Kou in the end. Until she appeared I thought that Kou moved on.
>>23577244It's been a while but>Nina now recognizes her ex for the sake of drama and because production staff changed partway>Kou in turn spergs out and kills people who were trying to defect>the 5D chess the Titans played to create themselves masterfully go into existence, and you get to admire the horror for a second before we get back to Kou again>we're somehow supposed to think Kou and Nina's happy ending was something that will happen and was also well-earned by both parties
>>23575708I think ZZ was more or less okay but Im in the middle of watching L-Gaim and I cant shake the feeling that Elle and Roux are just watered down versions of Amu and Leccee. I really think Tomino was lacking inspiration or slacking off for most characters in ZZ when the only interesting characters are the Purus and Haman.
>>23577155>ignoring the fact that she said some weird space magic shit about the Zetabut she was entirely right about the Zetas powers
>>23577244>>23577244>>23577259Its not about mocking Kou. I the finale of 0083 is really hard to parse thematically but I really think its supposed to be a vindication of the "losers" of history and that being a person that can take pride in oneself does not depend on the perception of others or that of history. Gato is the "winner" but ultimately accomplishes the opposite of his goal in the grand scheme of things and Kou is the "loser" but stands in the end as the person that has nothing to be ashamed of, in contrast to Nina standing before him. She smiles because she knows she cant ask Kou to forgive her, and its left ambiguous whether or not he does.
Everytime somebody says "Judau could have fixed her" I die a little inside.
>>23577466I know that but how does she know thatWhy does the Zeta have this function>just a prototype thing for newtypes but this is somehow arguably more advanced than anything we've ever seen in terms of space magic, even if allowing that Kamille is the strongest newtypeI'm not saying it's a bad or unenjoyable concept, or that she was wrong, but it took me a second to register and accept.>>23577478I'll think about this and try to have a generous rewatch at some point, GP02 and GP03 have interesting concepts and designs, and it's a very pretty OVA, so I hope it's not like, unsalvageably dogshit.
>>23577483any cock could've fixed her
>>23577232>>23577244>>23577259>>23577478The first Director wanted to create a cool action - thriller in the style of Top Gun. Chasing Gato and having cool mecha battles along the way.The second Director said screw that. He wanted more forced melo-drama, romance, and love triangles. Even if it didn't make sense with the first part of 0083.
>>23577977I don't mind either, I don't mind both, but when it's one show that was trying to be one suddenly switching to the other...
>>23577977Idk at which episode another director replaced the old one, but Nina showed that she knew Kelley in the middle of the show and it feels like that this episode was made by the first director. So I assume he planned betrayal too.
>>23577990Thats the problem with these OVAs that take years to animate slowly.08th MS team suffered the same problems.Director #1 Umanosuke Iida was the original Director. He wanted a gritty realistic war drama with ground level tactics and military realism. He handled episodes 1 to 6, created the Gouf fight, and created most of the final mobile suit battles used in the finale. He died unexpectedly. Director #2 is Takahiro Kanayama. He came in board and wanted to Chang things to a drama with emotional themes, and a much bigger focus on romance. Less focus on military tactics and battles. He handled episodes 7 to 11, and the Miller's report movie. That's why Aina went from a loyallving sister in the first episodes.....to suddenly wanting to kill her brother and run away with Shiro to make babies in later episodes. Despite her only knowing Shiro for like 1 day at most. Inconsistent direction. The only reason we even had the Gouf Custom fight was because Director #1 storyboarded and created the Gouf fight ahead of time. He told the staff what he wanted far in advance and had all the visuals prepared. He was really enthusiastic about the battle.
>>235780152nd half is better.
>>23578015I watched 08th with a friend and they just insisted that for my sake we skip the last episode, and I could watch it on my own time if I wanted. So in terms of drama, I found it acceptable, while having also really liked the fights from earlier.And what the fuck is it with OVAs changing directors? Other commitments? The director in the first half burning too much money? The duration of time causing personal problems within the production crew? LOGH was eight thousand episodes and was consistently good, but I can't help but think of Getter Robo Armageddon which apparently had similar problems (and I'm putting both budget and interpersonal issues there because I've heard both rumors)
>>23577155i was iffy with zeta at times, likely due to having not ideal subs, but the last two episodes were fantastic maybe i'm just an edgelord but kamille losing his mind at the end was an insane thing to do and i love it, the arrogant, bratty kid from the start cared about people so much that losing almost all of them just broke him completelyone moment i don't see people mentioning very often is when he opens his visor when talking to emma in the prior episode, i don't know if it was an animation quirk or not but his right eye is twitching before he does it, kamille was already over the edge there and everything that happened after was just kicking him further down the hole
>>23575628And that's why he sucks
>>23578139>likely due to having not ideal subsI gave a few other versions an attempt and tested one episode, and they still had the same subs. If I ever hear a phrase I can recognize, and you've put in a completely unrelated phrase that happens to fit into the situation, I'm going to lose faith in the subtitles faster than Char lost faith in humanity. (Ok maybe it took several years for him, but shut the fuck up.) Like, there's going to be other scenes that talk about some abstract shit, I want to know I can trust the subs, I get what you mean.>maybe i'm just an edgelord but kamille losing his mind at the end was an insane thing to do and i love it, the arrogant, bratty kid from the start cared about people so much that losing almost all of them just broke him completelyI think we're both able to enjoy tragedy for what it is, and see the artistry or even comedy in it. I'd rather have a character go out in a lovable way than to have him finish his arc and just turn into a background character because there was fuck-all else to do with him. And ok, I thought it was mostly Paptimus being a dick and crushing his psyche, but I'll take a reading that him losing most of his friends helped.>i don't know if it was an animation quirk or notI asked elsewhere about Char looking like he was smiling when he said he mistook Haman for Amuro or something, and I had no idea whether it was intentional or not. But yeah, I can't pinpoint when Kamille stopped being a screeching child, to being whiny about an important point and still getting beatings, to being pretty mature and sensible about the gravity (heh) of the situation. Maybe it's when fucking Katz started existing again. I appreciate that Katz exists as a contrast to a matured Kamille and that he's a freakishly good pilot but holy shit I do not like that child.
>>23578179i think kamille stops being a brat around the midway point, when everyone stops beating the shit out of him and he finally learns to not piss people offkatz is a weird one because he's a total shitter who's trying to be like what he thinks amuro was like, but doesn't understand anything about what amuro actually did, and ultimately pays for itkatz got away with a lot more than kamille did when he was just as bad, if not worse considering that kamille actually had the skill to back up his more reckless moves when katz had to constantly get bailed out
>>23578184The funniest thing about Katz is that I perceived him as a spoiled kid but then I remembered that he was of Kamille's age
>>23578186shit i didn't even realize that, i thought he was 14 in zetai think he was pretty spoiled all things considered, so was kamille but he got a reality check pretty damn fast where katz got all moody because he got 'betrayed' by sarah even after everyone told him she was going to use him and never really learned from it
>>23578184>when everyone stops beating the shit out of him and he finally learns to not piss people offThis much is just knowing how to get around the rules, not necessarily maturing, but I get what you mean.And to his credit, Katz was surprisingly skilled and did bail out Kamille and others a few times>kamille actually had the skill to back up his more reckless moves when katz had to constantly get bailed outBut yeah, it's just that SPECIFICALLY whenever they did something stupid and gay and retarded, where the entirety of the AEUG and the viewership are screaming at them to stop, Kamille could ostensibly get out of it whereas Katz ends up the way he ended up. Still felt bad for Sarah though, and it was good to see him post-mortem, but I really couldn't pity his (earned) death.>>23578186>>23578190No he's just 1-2 years younger isn't he>>23578190I mean, at least they both found closure at the very end postmortem, you could argue that that's still something, for the sake of Sarah's soul.
>>23578194>No he's just 1-2 years younger isn't heHmm, yes. My bad. I always thought that Kamille is 16.
>>23578195It's too late for apologies, you've just lost your Nemo, enjoy your new Rick Ball.
>>23578194sarah was still simping for scirocco even after she died, she only went against him because all the other ghosts essentially forced her to help kamille because he actually cared about them, and her
>>23578205To be fair, Scirocco's insanely charismatic/gravitational, and she also had even Reccoa telling her to get out of the way, as well as Katz giving her hope that Scirocco could still come and hang out. We've seen some of these people become slightly better post-mortem, maybe due to this being a higher state of mutual understanding, or maybe due to the fact that they're literally fucking dead. Maybe it could be the same for Scirocco as well after some period of time. I don't think she grew tremendously as a character, but I wouldn't be too hard on her needing that one final push. And it's from Katz out of all people, I'd rather Katz and Scirocco become better people in newtype heaven than be sent to newtype hell.Wait. I'm starting to wonder whether you need proximity to the Zeta, and/or affinity with the pilot for people to appear as helpers. Like, I'm glad we never saw Jerid ever again but the writers could have brought him back if they wanted, if this ghost realm is anything like what I think it is, a place with a continued sort of understanding and peace with oneself and each other, etc. I do hope Jerid burns in newtype hell, but if he and Mouar talk about how hateful power-seeking won't solve anything and "I'm sorry for making fun of your name", then ok he's one of us now.>saved Kamille's apology but lost Jerid's
>>23578227iirc reccoa never had an issue with kamille, her siding with him over scirocco makes sense if you remember she wanted kamille to stop her from doing all the genocidal shit the titans were making her doi think tomino said that kamille is the strongest newtype in the uc, and the zeta probably amplified his ability so he could properly contact the ghosts he shared a strong connection with, even if sarah wanted to help scirocco initially she was unable to deny that kamille wanted to and did try to help her live like a normal personjerid died hating kamille so he would likely want nothing to do with him if he could commune with him, i don't remember him having a big opinion on scirocco either so he likely just fucked off into the voidi do find it interesting that kamille is so fried by the time he kills jerid it's not even personal for him anymore, he just wants the killing to stop before anyone else dies, whereas jerid is still so consumed with hating kamille he does everything he can to get revenge
>>23578241But Reccoa was also simping over Scirocco because Quattro was just bafflingly ignoring her for no reason/because he pushes people away/because he has issues/etc.>tomino said that kamille is the strongest newtype in the ucThat was my understanding, but didn't some viewers say this about Judeau for good reasons>even if sarah wanted to help scirocco initially she was unable to deny that kamille wanted to and did try to help her live like a normal personYeah, I do appreciate the human connection, poor girl.>jerid died hating kamille so he would likely want nothing to do with him if he could commune with himYeah, I would have found it a bit jarring if he cheerfully showed up, but do you also become better and relaxed people after death, especially if he gets to be with Mouar or Galbaldy girl>kamille is so fried by the time he kills jeridLiterally all his friends are dying, it didn't feel like a very long fight and I hope it was intentional. Not just for the show to shit on Jerid but just because even these blood-soaked personal vendettas like this, where it'd be an otherwise-engaging rival fight (mixed feelings here, Jerid's a loser but he's also a skilled pilot to an extent) but it just pales in comparison to the notion that this depressing shit is never going to fucking end. It might have been a bumpy ride but yeah, as you or >>23578139 said, I don't think you can dislike the finale, unless you absolutely require happy endings.
>>23578247Cont.Like holy shit, I'll bump a show up from a 9 to a 10 if it had a nice little epilogue where everyone gets closure and you have a happy reunion or dance party or whatever, but I can still appreciate the absolute and pure fucking minimalist misery that comes after Paptimus dies.
>>23578094>fights from earlier. >And what the fuck is it with OVAs changing directors? Other commitments? The director in the first half burning too much money?These Gundam OVAs took years to animate back in 1980s and 1990s.Very few experienced anime directors are willing to commit 2 to 3 years of their life just to one anime. They have bills to pay and families to feed. So they schedule their time months in advance for different projects. Bandai would animate 1 or 2 episodes. Then slow down production to see how well it sells. Bandai would sell these Gundam OVA episodes on VHS tape via magazines or catalogs where fans could order them via a phone number (also sometimes fans would place orders at local video stores or hobby stores). If the VHS tape sells well, then they would continue production onto the next episodes. If the tapes didn't sell well, then the anime got cancelled. And the staff got let go.
ZZ is better than Z the first half of ZZ is greatbreak free of the internet conditioning
>>23578441Ok that makes a lot more sense and puts things into context, it's not just "burning a lot of our budget and we might have to cheap out later on", it's outright "can we even exist anymore", and likewise withI guess something like LOGH was popular and also wasn't absurdly difficult to animate, because humanoid on humanoid action is probably the most difficult to draw but was thankfully the rarest thing that came up, then fights between somewhat-geometrically standard shapes that the ships were in, then most commonly people walking and talking. Maybe. Just pure conjecture on my end.Do you also know if both 08 and 0083 switching from focus from action to drama was due to how much it would take to animate more fight scenes, or was it more so or even largely just the directors' preferences?
>>23578519Yeah, the Devilman OVAs didn't get to continue due to expenses and Iida died, and you get other stories like Bubblegum Crash and VOTOMS Shining Heresy being cut short due to budget
>>23578555>Iida diedOh, I enjoyed Hellsing quite recently, and I liked the Devilman OVAs as well, that sucks. I haven't seen the Bubblegum stuff yet, I have mixed feelings about Shining Heresy but I never got the feeling that it was cut short....?>it was only 5 eps and not the 13 I remember>Phantom Arc was also 6>Pailsen Files that came out in between was 12, same with Mellowlink that came before HeresyThere weren't that many episodic Votoms OVAs to begin with, I'm not sure if it's a relative lack of interest in Votoms, or - my guess - that people really really thought that a continuation after the show's ending was unnecessary. Hopefully Bubblegum Crash at least doesn't feel like it was cut short.
Director of 08th MS was changed cause he died midway.
>>23578693That is very sad and for multiple reasons I wish that didn't happen
>wasn't seduced or pressured by Scirocco>had determination>newtype>arguably better pilot than Jerid>died like Stacy defending her man>one of the few members of Titans who questioned their methods>her only flaw - being obsessed with JeridWish we could see AU where she isn't obsessed with Jerid. The girl had some great potential.
>>23578764>literally everything you said but she was also willing to love even literal trashNo yeah, on many levels she's one of the best characters in the show despite such a short amount of screentime.
