>Zeon: hurrr, we need to destroy the guntanks, ignore the gundams>Feds: guntanks are really important, don't let them be destroyedMeanwhile in the OG gundam, the RX-78-2 was 10000000x times more lethal than any guntank crap.
>>235977321) Ground Gundams are basically buffed up GMs, so it is a flawed comparison.2) Most of RX-78-2 lethality came from having a reliable beam rifle. In 08th MS Team, beam rifles are both rare and inferior, so artilery plays a more important role.
>>23597732Guntanks are more like mobile artillery who get coordinates on where to fire like irl howitzers and the RX79 ground type is slightly above a GM with since its built blem RX78 parts.
>>23597732Lol yeah when I first watched 08th MS Team after 0079 my initial thought was 'isn't 3 Gundams kinda overkill', but in universe the Gundam Ground Types aren't 'true' Gundams, more like a waste product of trying to create the Gundam, so in that sense I can totally see Guntanks having vital tactical utility that the Ground Types aren't expected to fulfil.
>>23597732Neither the Ground Gundams or their pilots are near the ability of the RX-78-2 or Amuro Ray.
>>23597817https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85jV37CsYE
>>23597732Are you forgetting the part where all of this is happening because the feds are besieging a fortress? Or even when Norris literally says the Guntanks will shoot down the Kerguelen so he needs to kill them first?
>>23597817Originally the animation and movement was a bit.. floatier? but then they decided to have it skew a bit closer to how 0083's ground battles played out.>>23597953also because they were using them to pound the fuck out of all of the mountain base's defenses and entrances, and the zeeks didn't have much artillery or air units of their own to counter or prevent it from happening
>>23597732The weirdest part of the finale is that Zeon doesn't have counter batteries or cannons to fire back against the Guntank positions. They had absolutely no static defenses either to shoot back.Even during the final days of WW2, the Germans and Japanese still had artillery cannons and batteries to shoot enemy positions.It makes no sense that Zeon had nothing.
>>23598161At that point they'd retreated back through every last defensive line of that facility, they didn't have the strategic depth to have anything topside and stationary that wouldn't get immediately pounded by ground forces or air power. Best they could do was use the big tunnel network the Federation hadn't cleared yet to send out harassing forces to buy them the last few hours they needed.
>>23598187Okay, but what's stopping a Zaku grabbing a 180mm cannon and just firing artillery shells at the city where the Guntanks are located? The Zaku itself can be a mobile turret. We've seen that done numerous times.
>>23598271Who knows. They might not have the shells to do it, might not be set up to do indirect fire, might not have accurate enough data on their location to guarantee effective fire on an important target. If you have to put someone out there to get you a proper target anyway then it might make more sense to have them try and take it out than to have a second team emerge somewhere else as an improvised artillery section, then try to aim at a designated target while not getting their shit rocked out in the open wherever they are. At least if you're mixed in with your enemy in an urban environment you deny them the ability to just level your grid square.Unless they had a couple dozen Zakus and appropriate cannons, they wouldn't be able to do enough damage fast enough before getting levelled by counter-battery or air power if all they know is 'in that city'. Given that they allowed a single Gouf to go on a suicide mission to get the job done, I suspect they didn't have those resources spare.At some point you also just have to decide if you want to watch a cool robot fight or not. I think it's pretty reasonable here with how much Zeon's been rolled back into their bunker and worn down that they can't manage anything more.
>>23598271Maybe they thought getting in close with their more agile mechs was the better play than getting in long range artillery duels against long range artillery platforms.
>>23598187It's strange. If I recall 08th MS team correctly, in the previous episodes before the finale, Zeon was still doing quite well. They had bases and mobile suits in the area. But then the final episodes happen and it immediately cuts to Zeon getting their ass kicked and Zeon hiding in a mountain. There was no transition at all. I think that's a major problem of 08th MS team.
>>23598271Not having one I guess. Might be a supply line issue, which would be in character for zeon.
>>23598313about halfway through 08th MS team, operation odessa canonically takes place. before that point, zeon still had a decently strong position on earth. after operation odessa where the federation finally breaks the stalemate and scores a major win in europe, zeon's earth front starts collapsing.we don't see odessa in 08th MS team except for like one scene because odessa is in europe while shiro and his team are fighting in south east asia. but you see other details like admiral kellerne bitching about the feds taking odessa from them and his damaged forces having to retreat back to ginias' base, losing gear along the way.
>>23598323It was my understanding that Zeon had 3 major landing zones.North America - Under command of GarmaEurope/north Africa - (this includes Odessa) under command of Kycillia South East Asia - under command of Giren Each of these forces operated independently and didn't really support eachother. So even if one force was defeated, the others should still be fine. I don't really understand how Odessa falling means the end for Zeon on Earth. It's just one Stronghold
>>23598408Odessa Day was the start of the Feddie counter-offensive that turned the tide, the start of wide deployment of production RGM-79s to the front. Nobody says Odessa falling was literally the cause of Zeon's rout on Earth just like nobody would say the Normandy landings were the specific cause of the collapse of the Third Reich, but people still talk about how D-Day was a critical turning point.
>>23597732Yeah, If only they actually had access to said RX-78-2 in that theatre, huh.
>>23598423But this doesn't explain why Zeon rapidly fell on Earth.Just to take Odessa, it took 75% of the Earth Federation military gathered together to take the base. And even then, they almost failed.
>>23599021Garma Dies > Odessa falls > majority of zeon command on earth escapes to space > zeekes launch one last hail mary attack on jaburo led by char and it fails > apsalus is destroyed > zeon abandons the earth with no clear path left to destroy the federations ability to resist > most of the earthside zeekes surrender or fuck off and become insurgnetsIt makes perfect sense honestly just on a very shockingly squashed time scale because all of that happens in about a month.
>>23599173Wouldn't only the Odessa survivors escape? Why would the other commanders from other battlefronts on earth run away
>>23599021In other words, 25% of the Earth Federation military was enough to keep two other fronts entertained. Freeing a large chunk of the rest of the military combined with EF making better weapons would explain how they folded, don't you think?Plus, North America was probably weakened from the misadventures of the White Base.The biggest contributor though, was likely Zeon's Jaburo assault fiasco that funneled a lot of resources away from their other ground troops.
>>23599173Once again really just comes down to the insistence on the concept of the "one year war" condensing the timeline too much. Unfortunate it wasn't a year from when Amuro gets the gundam
>>23599183>In other words, 25% of the Earth Federation military was enough to keep two other fronts entertained.I always figured the two other fronts just thought>"haha. Those losers are at Odessa are under attack? No we aren't going to help them. With the Federation so busy attacking Odessa, we basically are going to get a vacation for the next 2 weeks."Or something like that.
Look at this retard who doesn’t see the value in shelling someone out of sight, miles away
>>23599182They assumed (correctly probably) that with Odessa destroyed Zeon wasn't going to be sending anyone any new HLV's or orbit capable Zanzibars. So they got while the getting was good. Yuri shows up in 08th to more or less steal Gineas's Zanzibar to get his crew home. He was only going to take Aina and her people because he had a soft spot for her and wanted to play the hero. It also might have been a play by Kycilia to leave a shit load of Ghirens more die hard supporters earthside to get them out of the way for her eventual coup. Zeon has just as many internal factors for its failures as it did external.
>>23599228>They assumed (correctly probably) that with Odessa destroyed Zeon wasn't going to be sending anyone any new HLV's or orbit capable Zanzibars.Wait. Stop here. Explain you logic. Why can't Zeon send ships to land in North America?
>>23599235iirc Zeon loses the entire west coast of the USA by December, and right before that Jaburo launches multiple whole fleets in late November to begin the new GM equipped offensive in space. Zeon lose high orbit supremacy and don't see the value in rescuing a bunch of infantry and ground type zakus who can't fight in space.
>>23597772>2) Most of RX-78-2 lethality came from having a reliable beam rifle.Most of the RX-78-2's lethality came from Amuro sitting in the cockpit.
>>23599298That too. Having his pilot data made lives of EF shoefitters a lot easier, considering that Gundams and GMs are harder to control than Zeon's mobile suits as is.Still, you can't just pin it all just on Amuro considering other EFF aces with 100+ kills, like Tenneth A. Tung.
>>23599301>Still, you can't just pin it all just on Amuro considering other EFF aces with 100+ kills, like Tenneth A. Tung.Yeah, those kill counts are inflated from the way EFSF regulations count mobile suits being docked in HLVs as "individual" kills. Jung was part of the space front shooting down Zeon HLVs fleeing Odessa.
Federation sudden comeback makes no sense. Zeon destroyed almost their entire space fleet. How is the Federation regaining space supremacy?
>>23599424I don't think that they ever got space supremacy. IIRC they just crushed Zeon's hope of getting the Earth and than gone for blitzkrieg on some of their important locations.
>>23599424Luna II is still an EF foothold in space, and Zeon never fully controlled Earth's orbit or space itself even post Operation British. There's an entire IGLOO episode dedicated to Zeon trying to shoot down fleets that Jaburo keeps launching, and before the EF had widespread MS use stuff like the Ball Minelayer produced their highest scoring anti-ship aces.
>>23599472I don't disagree with events. But it seems odd that Zeon suddenly became impotent after winning the Battle of Loum and smashing the Federation space fleet. They should be at the peak of their power. Why doesnt Zeon have enough ships to blockade Luna 2?Why doesn't Zeon take or destroy Luna 2?Before any treaty was signed, why not hit Luna 2 with nuclear missiles and destroy it? Char was able to do it with just 14 ships during CCA.I just want an explanation so I can understand Zeon's lack of strength despite winning the space war.
>>23599503Zeon crippled the EFSF's offensive capabilities through speed and surprise, that doesn't mean they have the capability to mop up every single space asset in a more protracted fight, especially now that the EFSF knows what Zeon's mobile suits can do and has a chance to plan for them.As for why not nuke it, Zeon were all-in on their plan to force the EF out of the war with the strike on Jaburo. They probably didn't want to divert resources, nor damage something they'd hoped to be able to occupy after.Keep in mind too Zeon is severely limited in manpower and accessible resources compared to the Earth Federation. Supporting a bridgehead from orbit is a mammoth logistical undertaking, the kind of thing that nobody in human history has ever done anything comparable to. There's simply no way that Zeon could keep the same level of intensity of space operations while also facilitating the invasion of Earth.
>>23599696>Zeon crippled the EFSF's offensive capabilities through speed and surprise, that doesn't mean they have the capability to mop up every single space asset in a more protracted fightAre you seriously telling me Zeon could completely destroy 5 Colony Sides, blow up hundreds of Colonies, kill Billions of people, but not have enough power left to take a puny asteroid base?
>>23599701Yes.The One Week Battle was a complete surprise attack on the Earth Federation, with a Space Navy coming out of nowhere, and with chemical WMDs to first clear out Island Iffish to use it as a kinetic WMD to drop onto Jaburo.Of which the fallout caused said billions of casualties, including both Feddies & Zeke armed forces.
>>23599701Yes. If Zeon had a strong chance of winning the war conventionally, they wouldn't have gambled it all on a knockout opening blow.
>>23599701Yes. Speed, suprise, and technological superioritygot them far initially but once the momentum was lost the war became one of attrition where the EFF held the advantage. Operation British was tremendously costly for Zeon and rendered it impossible for them to effectively attack Luna II; while attacking and dropping it on Earth was indeed one of their threats it was a bluff they could not support. In CCA Char managed to perform a colony drop through a combination of popular support (other colonies could not respond against him without rioting or terrorism) and bargaining/lying, e.g. telling the EFF he'd surrender his weapons in exchange for the purchase of Axis, using dummy balloons to trick EFF officials into thinking his fleet was in port while actually performing the drop operation, etc.
>>23597817>>23599298>>23599301I hate all this powerscaling shit that comes up in relation to UC side materialsStop talking about Amuro like hes Goku or something
>>23600167Might as well be.Mind you, a lot of that was shown in the original show.
>>23599182Disrupted supply chains, they likely reasoned they didn't have the capability to hold the ground any longer.
>>23600167Amuro in the Nu could beat Goku
>>23600167You don't get a nickname like Shiroi Akuma for nothing
>>23597773>RX79 ground type is slightly above a GMSlightly above GM ground types, which are built from Gundarium and way above regular GMs.
I don't get where the Amuro hype comes from.I saw the original series, zeta and the cca movie.In none of them I saw Amuro as some kind of god killer like Kira Yamato was in seed.In the original series Amuro was always having a hard time against most of the non grunt enemies."B..but he killed 10 grunts in 5 minutes". Yeah yeah, char could do it too. kamille could do it too. judau could do it too. even fa yuri scored kills against grunts.In zeta he didn't show any impressive skills.In cca he was also meh.In that Cucuruz Doan's Island movie, Amuro mostly jobbed.Even in Gundam Wing, Heero seemed like a better pilot than Amuro.
>>23600923so, when is your eye surgery?
>>23600202>Disrupted supply chains, they likely reasoned they didn't have the capability to hold the ground any longer.What supply chains? North America has its own giant factory. Don't they make Goufs and Doms there? There's nothing to worry about it when it comes to supplies.
>>23599472>>23599503>>23599696>>23599701>>23599990Luna II is massive. Its the real life asteroid Juno, which as can be seen in the image, is roughly the size of Taiwan. Note that A Baoa Qu, Solomon, and Axis are all on there too, near the bottom left. Zeon was stretched thin from Loum and trying to conquer the Earth, I don't think they even had enough ships for an effective blockade
>>23601068Thanks for the info. It's quite interesting and didn't know about it's huge size. However there is no way Luna 2 in the anime is that big. Its looks smaller than Al Boa Que. Maybe about equal to Solomon based on how big the Luna 2 hangar doors are. Plus Char was able to completely covet the surface with a missile bombardment with just 12 ships in CCA. If it were that big, 12 ships couldn't even dream of doing that.
>>23601088It certainly does look small in the animation, although I feel its more an artifact of the low budget of the original show itself. Compare Solomon in Gundam 0079
>>23601097With Solomon in Gundam 0083. Bigger budget means more detailed lights, which makes it look physically larger.
>>23597953Actually, he says the Kerguelen would get shot down by the Gundam's beam weapons. I'm not really sure why he then focuses on the tanks. I don't get it, that line's always bugged me. >>23598271Did you miss the absolute fuckton of planes bombing the shit out of their base? The zaku would get wrecked.
>>23601008Why do you keep bringing the most absolutist assumptions to everything? 'They have a big factory' doesn't mean 'they are entirely self-sufficient'.
>>23601008IIRC, Odessa was a major mining hub. All the factories in the world won't help you if you don't have any raw materials to build shit with.
>>23597732>These suits are vital to this mission, and they lack the firepower of an RX-78-2.Oh, OK.
>>23601105Okay....so how did Jaburo make all those GMs then without controlling Odessa for 95% of the One Year War?
>>23601102I think people perceive the fight a bit differently than the creators intended. Norris goes after threats the the ship first and foremost. He prioritizes the three guntanks because of their long range firepower. But he also slaps the beam rifle out of Karens hands the first chance he gets, lets her live, kills a guntank, then destroys Sanders's cannon. He never bothers to seal the deal on any of the gundams because once they're disarmed, they aren't a threat to the ship directly.
>>23601147South America is about as mine dense as continental Africa, and the Zeekes didn't land there because they assumed the colony drop would destroy it. Jaburo also has a massive underground manufacturing complex that produced everything from tanks to Mobile Suits and fleet scale ship production.
>>23601103>Why do you keep bringing the most absolutist assumptions to everything? 'They have a big factory' doesn't mean 'they are entirely self-sufficient'.Except California Base WAS mass producing mobile suits. Some of best looking mobile suits of the one year war if you ask me.
>>23601161Yes, and that does not contradict them not being fully self-sufficient.
>>23601103No base is truly ever 100% self sufficient. However California Base is probably the most self sufficient base out of all Zeon bases on Earth.They have factories for producing submarines, surface navy ships, and any boat design you could think off. They also have factories for producing their own mobile suits. And they are next to the ocean, so technically they won't ever starve or run out of food or water. In some ways, California Base is more valuable than Odessa.
>>23601168Breaking the siege by making a flotilla to take ten thousand EFF grunts to pee in the ocean right outside California Base's desal and fishing facilities.
>>23601168California Base also has HLV launch and landing facilities. So they aren't even cut off from space.
>>23601148That's a good point, actually. I never thought of that. That's very smart. >>23601147Because Odessa isn't the only mine on Earth. >>23601168The California Base was hot shit, sure, but again, it needs raw materials from somewhere for those factories to matter. I know someone's probably thinking that they could get resources shipped down from space, but that's a really long, expensive, and dangerous trip when Zeon doesn't control space around Earth.
>>23601182HLVs are extremely vulnerable if your enemy is in range either on ground or in space. Better than not having them but if you're getting rolled up your safe HLV route is going to go sooner rather than later.
>>23601148The whole battle makes no sense. I don't think Guntanks can even shoot down air targets so far away. Those shoulder cannons are artillery and meant for shooting ground targets.And what's the point of Norris taking out the beam rifles? They can't reach the space ship. The Federation needed a custom GM sniper with a long ranger beam sniper rifle. And even wasn't enough. The rifle needed a power boost by connecting it to an external generator.
>>23601222>I don't think Guntanks can even shoot down air targets so far awayThey presumably can, since that's what the EFF is staging them there for and that's why Norris is focusing on them as targets.The beam rifle thing is easy, he's just not worried about finishing them off when he's focusing on taking out the guntanks. Disarmed of the beam rifle, their main threat is gone and he can move on.>custom GM sniperThat's just a repainted Ground GM, believe it or not.
>>23598210Fuck yeah Guntank!
>>23601268I don't even remember the original Guntank on White Base ever doing any of that. It could only shoot down nearby enemy targets.
>>23601390There's abit of stock footage in the OG MSG of the Guntank shooting down Dopps with its shoulder cannon
>>23601390>>23601400There's also no reason to assume it's an identical machine, since the whole Operation V concept of 'three complementary platforms' went out the window. The original Guncannon was also shown as being at least not entirely helpless up close, whereas these ones essentially didn't even put up a fight.They're shown being used as fire support units to intercept a launch vehicle and they're treated as a threat to the launch vehicle, so I'm going to go with the show and the implication that this model of Guncannon is a threat to the launch vehicle.
>>23601412>GuncannonImagine I wrote 'guntank' instead and that I'm not a fucking idiot, whoops.
>>23601268There's literally an entire episode of the show that hinges on a gundam using it's beam rifle to make a long range shot.
>>23597732>muh lore muh consistency this shit has ruined sci fi, simply tell a compelling story with clear stakes. I can very easily believe that in a military operation protecting self propelled artillery is important
>>23601400Yeah but those Dopp pilots flew insanely close to White Base when attacking.
>>23601652There's also an episode where the Gundam cuts the warhead off a nuclear missile while in flight. Which honesty, just highlights the problem with the OYW OVAs trying to mil sci-fi up a series that's still fanciful and romanticized at its heart. It's like when people thought the Nolan movies were the peak of Batman.
>>23601412>They're shown being used as fire support units to intercept a launch vehicleThey are shown being using as artillery on ground targets. And when they fire the shoulder cannons at point blank range, the cannons doesn't event penetrate Dom backpack armor. >and they're treated as a threat to the launch vehicle,Well...technically Zeon did. More specially Norris. But the Federation didn't.
>>23601795>fanciful and romanticizedAny non-Tomino /m/ works that are like this?
>>23601805>doesn't event penetrate Dom backpack armor.I headcanon this as a defect shell or wrong type of shell moment
>>23601652>There's literally an entire episode of the show that hinges on a gundam using it's beam rifle to make a long range shot.Yeah and their Gundam sensors can't see that far away.
How come Gundam Thunderbolt did a much better job of showing jungle battles, than all of 08th MS Team did?
>>23601828They had 08th MS Team as reference for what to not do and what to double down on
>>23601828Did the Gundams in 08th MS team even take any damage? It's been years since I watched the anime, but all I remember is the Gundams effortlessly smashing Zakus every episode. I don't even think they took battle damage.
>>23601860Did you watch it with your eyes closed? The main Gundam is literally a field repaired unit.
>>23601860It's really time for you to rewatch it
>>23601865I'm not talking about damage from bosses. Did a Zaku even get any battle damage on the main Gundams?
>>23601860GM Head would like a word.
>>23601860In the gouf fight they took a bit of a beating, but the most major damage taken was from Ez-8 ripping its own arm off for a melee weapon when he forgot he had beam sabers.
>>23601951Come on. We all know Gundams have magic plot armor until the final 2 or 3 episodes of the anime. Or if a boss shows up. The rest of the time, the Gundams are invincible. A mere Zaku could slash Shiro's Gundam cockpit with a heat hawk, but the Axe would magically do nothing and harmlessly bounce off.
>>23602028>Gundams are invincible if you define out all the times they aren't
>>23602029Oh please. 80% of the 08th MS Team anime, the Ground Gundams are unstoppable Juggernauts. 3 of them were even able to destroy an entire Zeon base. Even though the base has well defended with artillery, turrets, defensive fortifications, and mobile suits. The Ground Gundams didn't even take any damage from the attack.
>>23601412>The original Guncannon was also shown as being at least not entirely helpless up close, whereas these ones essentially didn't even put up a fightBoth Guntanks have identical armaments(and infact, the MP Guntank is more mobile in the fact that its torso can turn properly), the only reason why these guys look useless and retarded is because they're grunt pilots made to look that way so the named character looks cool
>>23602062>oh please, if you ignore the 20% of the time they took damage, they were unstoppablenigger what
>>23602203Anon is saying the Gundams lose plot armor during the final episodes of the show. And he's not wrong.
>>23602221That sorta true. Unless it was a Tomino directed anime. Tomino doesn't give a shit and damages the Gundam all time. The original Gundam had its cockpit cut open, head half crushed, leg sliced off, joints slashed, and chest melted. That's why the original Mobile Suit Gundam is awesome and better than any of the OVAs. Tomino kept a sense of danger and suspense.
>>23602221Shiro's Gundam took more damage fighting the apsalus II prototype than in the final battles with norris and dealing with the apsalus IIIKaren and Sanders take zero fucking damage during the final 3 episodes. At best they lose their guns, that's fucking it. Norris disarms them cleaner than Kira Yamato does since the Ground Gundams still have their limbs intact. Karen's beam rifle isn't even visibly damaged after Norris pushes it into a building, it just fucking disappears and she just no longer has it, so we can only assume it's broken without even seeing it.
>>23602227Fair point. It is interesting to see the difference. All the Gundam OVAs glorify the Gundam. And unicorn is the absolute worst. The music swells and the orchestra plays whenever it shows up. The Unicorn is like some sort of "Evangelion Time God" by the end of the anime. Meanwhile the Tomino directed Gundam anime treats the Gundam like a tool. It gets used, abused, and discarded. Tomino doesn't treat the Gundam like it's sacred or important. The characters are more important. Amuro ditches the Gundam at the end. The Gundam Mark 2 is discarded at the end of Zeta. Same with Zeta and ZZ.
>>23602195>only reason why these guys look useless and retarded is because they're grunt pilots made to look that way so the named character looks coolThat's the problem with 08th MS team. Too many sacrifices made just so the Gundams can look cool. The anime really should have been about a team of Ground GMs. Not Gundams.
>>23602195Anon are we doing the 'some databook somewhere said a thing so I'm going to ignore what's shown in the show' thing again? Because that game is always fucking retarded.
>>23602316in a world where 08th MS team was about land combat GMs you'd just be complaining about how ridiculously cool and powerful they are compared to other GMs and that if they were just given gundams instead, it wouldn't raise so many questions about plot armor
>>23602279>Gundam Mark 2 is discarded at the end of ZetaAre you sure about that?
>>23602353Yeah it was discarded and floating in the void abandoned at the end of Zeta
>>23602362And then collected by Fa to take back to the Argama, where it remains and becomes part of the next show's hero lineup.
>>23602329You don't need to rely on databooks to see that the Guntank MP is a upgraded machine, the pilots are always a bigger flaw in cases like this.
>>23602382It's different and it's (seemingly) serial production, that doesn't mean it's 'upgraded' in every way or intended for exactly the same role or anything else. That's all we see in the show that you're saying both shows that they're better but also does them dirty.
>>23602386>that doesn't mean it's 'upgraded' in every wayExcept it is, the only way you could really argue it isn't is because it doesn't have core blocks, I don't think you understand how fucked up it is that the Guntank can't turn its fucking body in a scenario where you are engaging mobile suits.MP Guntank carries more ammo, has a better firing system, seemingly doesn't have the issue of requiring two pilots without modifications.There isn't really a damn thing you can say the original does better than any of its spinoff machines, unlike Gundam and Guncannon where they still have some clear advantages
>>23602393You immediately veered back off into databook bullshit instead of what's actually on-screen. If the two disagree then it's the fluff that's wrong, not the fucking show the fluff is complementing.
>>23602394>You immediately veered back off into databook bullshitEverything I mentioned is on screen things you can use your eyes to see, the original Guntank is just that shit.
>>23602398You keep insisting it's upgraded in a way that means it should kick ass instead of be an artillery unit that needs close-in protection.Clearly, on-screen, that is not the case.
>>23602400The fuck are you talking about? Being a upgraded machine doesn't mean it should "kick ass" it just means it was better than the original Guntank, they got their asses kicked because they all sat in stupid positions and got caught out by Norris, especially the last one who tried to take advantage of the face he can peak around a corner by turning his torso
>>23602404I think we've lost the thread here. I'm arguing with >>23602195 and the claim that the machine is being undersold to make Norris look cooler.
>>23602195If the MP Guntank is better why does it blow up when it by bullets? The original Guntank was able to take numerous bullets impacts without damage. It required rockets and missiles just to damage the original Guntank. It's clear the MP Guntank is a downgrade. It doesn't even have a core block system. So the pilots can't escape. They are stuck inside their suits with no escape.
>>23602414Mosttly because of plot, for example only two blew up iirc, one blew up because its ammo was exposed while trying to reload it sseemss >>23602404The second explodes despite Norris shooting it earlier for effectively the same amount of time he shot it after being cut in half, its all for suspense.The original guntank has the same exact exposed cockpit problem the MP one has, but there's no reason to kill off Hayato like that though
>>23602421>Anon discovers action scenes are not plotted out by running a crunch heavy wargame session and then animating the results
>>23602423I'm not the one asking why a grunt is dying when a MC wasn't, also by the way the core block system only mattered when the original Guntank was two pilots, when Hayato was using that fuck in space he couldn't eject
Every discussion of the play-by-play details of 08th always comes back to the conclusion that norris has a stupefying aura that makes everyone turn into stumbling blind morons around him.This is only countered by shiro having kung fu powers from secretly training under master asia, and even that's barely enough to survive.
>>23602408At the time that's pretty much what most grunt machines did, especially in the OVAs, its not even a special thing to say, if we think about what it objectively can do its a superior machine to the original Guntank, I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing things like that out, its just how they hyped up antagonists back then, like how the Kamfper took out GM Sniper IIs and Guncannons
>>23602442By all accounts, Shiro should have died figuring against Norris.
>>23602471Norris wasn't trying to kill Shiro. He'd already disarmed the gundams and was going for the Guntanks. If he killed him, there'd be nothing stopping the other two from rushing him with beam sabers.
>>23602488If the other Gundams couldn't kill him earlier, then what difference does it make if they attack him again? Norris will just Spiderman up some buildings and continue.
>>23602404This right here is 08th MS Team's approach to redesigns in a nutshell. It wants the aesthetics of realism when it ends up making things more retarded. They could have just left it at giving the MP Guntank a bigger backpack that tells you it has more ammo but there's actually a whole mechanism with tiny arms that load shells individually.
>>23602793Right? Who'd ever design a mechanism with tiny arms that loads shells individually. It'd be even sillier if it turned out it was a massive design weakness that led to way more unsurvivable explosions than nescessary.
>>23602471Shiro's the only character in it with more improbably abilities to survive. The only reason he had a hard time was because he was in a gundam. If he got out and shot a bazooka at him he would've won.
>>23602793>this mechanism that exists irl is totally retarded and unrealistic we should just start executing these Warhammer brained mid-wits who think anything other than edgy 12 year old aesthetics are unrealistic
>>23602805>>23602814Before anon points out the obvious that my example was of a carousel loader stored internally, I'll just point out that it was also drawing on the various loading mechanisms that have been used historically to allow self-propelled artillery to restock their own magazines or now the Caesar is directly using exactly like the MP Guntank.They did it this way because it helps reinforce visually that this is a vulnerable artillery vehicle that needs protecting by the mobile suits and because it's more interesting to look at and animate.
>>23602793shit like this is why I'm into mecha
>>23602840>>23602827Mecha gave me IRL machinery fetish
>>23602335>in a world where 08th MS team was about land combat GMs you'd just be complaining about how ridiculously cool and powerful they are compared to other GMs and that if they were just given gundams instead, it wouldn't raise so many questions about plot armorNo I wouldn't. I think GMs and GM variants make sense. You can tweak a GM production line to make batches of variants. That's how the USA made so many Sherman variant tanks during WW2. What DOESN'T make sense is Ground Gundams using "leftover parts" from Operation V to make more Gundams. 1. First of all, the Ground Gundams look nothing like the RX-78 Gundam. 2. Secondly, how does leftover parts translate to making 30 more Ground Gundams?3.Thirdly, if there were THAT many "leftover parts¥, then why didn't they just make more RX-78 Gundams?See? The existence the of the Ground Gundam doesn't make sense at all.
>>23602400the original guntank is a piece of shit that needed to be constantly protected as well, even with Amuro in the cockpit he flees as soon as enemies get close
>>23600167Amuro killing the Big Zam essentially does make him Goku within the context of 0079.
>>23603567>1. First of all, the Ground Gundams look nothing like the RX-78 Gundam.It feels like Okawara iterated on that RX-78 redesign that's in Iron Works rather than go back to his classic style. He really didn't get back to drawing like that until MSV-R though.
>>23603567>3.Thirdly, if there were THAT many "leftover parts¥, then why didn't they just make more RX-78 Gundams?They did. They had 7 RX-78 series Gundams, all but 2 were piloted in the OYW.
>>23603567>>23603650Yeah, it's silly. You can't just build a low run vehicle out of rejected parts and tooling from a different project, to make the most of already committed resources during wartime.
>>23602793I genuinely don't see what's wrong with this
>>23603676At most you could take issue with the mechanism being exposed during the process, but that's easily justified as a rushed wartime design to make multiple existing components play nice, and not mattering a ton in a fire support role anyway. It's still better protected than most self-propelled artillery.
>>23597732the mass produced Guntank is better than the original Guntank for its intended purpose, mid-long range support. even in the anime, the Guntank can never reach the range that the mass produced Guntank does with its bombardment. thats why the MP Guntank is important in the 8th MS team anime, Zeon can't have 3 precise long range artillery killing them from afar
>>23603664Because the real answer is Sunrise/Bandai didn't want to sell an OVA without at least one Gundam in it and the idea these are made from Project V parts obviously came after the fact. They should have scaled it back so only commanders got a Gundam so Karen and Saunders had GMs. The prior OYW OVAs managed to keep Gundams special.
>>23603710Yeah, they should have given a GM Sniper II to one of the characters.
>>23603664The sad part is the Elefant probably would have been a decent "tank destroyer" if they just gave it a normal gas engine, and a machine gun to shoot enemy soldiers attacking the tank.I can't believe they gave it an electric hybrid engine (with 1940s technology), and no machine gun. So the first Elefants broke down only after a few miles of driving and enemy soldiers could walk right up to it without any resistance.
>>23603676>I genuinely don't see what's wrong with thisThe original Guntank had all the firing mechanisms inside the body. It wasn't exposed to enemy attacks.Who thought this was a good idea to expose the ammunition to enemy attacks? What a dumb design decision.
>>23603650>They did. They had 7 RX-78 series Gundams, all but 2 were piloted in the OYW.So why didn't they give any of these to White Base? I'm sure Sayla, Kai, Ryu, Sleggar and Hayato would have enjoyed using a Gundam. Not core fighters. Amuro probably would have appreciated the back up too.
>>23603787Because it's clear it's supposed to be seen as an artillery vehicle, and artillery is regularly fairly vulnerable to direct fire.Presumably whatever they changed about it to make it the MP model forced altering the loading system.The original Guntank also doesn't have any clear means to actually get a shell into the cannons anyway.This is a loading mechanism that real artillery in service in real wars right now uses.It's true that it's more exposed than the original Guntank design but I don't see why I'd assume the designers are idiots over assuming there's a reason, when it's a realistic system and not something super outlandish.
>>23603787>>23603800we pretty much have no reason to assume the Guntank could do field resupply on its own in the first place, being able to restock on it's own(which is the only reason why it did that) is a good thing, not the pilot's fault he was suddenly fighting spider-man
>>23603650And that doesn't count stuff like Pixy, Alex and FA/Heavy/Gunner Gundams, which technically are a part of the line.>>23603789Why would you concentrate all your best stuff in one place, rather than spreading it across the entire battlefield? Especially when only Amuro was a proper Gundam worthy pilot on the White Base.
>>23604204>Why would you concentrate all your best stuff in one place, rather than spreading it across the entire battlefield?Lmao. Your mind is still stuck in World War 1 ! You will never be a competent modern General.
>>23604210>Base all your Gundams on White Base>Now all the enemy has to do is either avoid or distract White Base to take all your most effective assets out fo play at once, which they will always know to be prepared forGenius. Though if you're only planning on using White Base as a distraction I suppose it could work.
>>23604233>Though if you're only planning on using White Base as a distractionnta but that's exactly what they did, it also isn't like all of those gundams did anything of use, Mudrock and G3 for example did jackshit during the war
>>23604249I know, but this is also kinda getting into 'how much impact does a Gundam have' territory because if we're going by serious business realism rules, there's no point putting any more Gundams on White Base anyway because it won't make a meaningful difference. They're worried about it because of Amuro and the RX-78-2 already.
>>23604250I mean, some of those gundams was already meant to go to the white base anyways, not even as replacements for the RX-78-2, getting rid of stuff like the Guntank was a goal, it just couldn't happen
>>23604257Yeah that's true. I suppose if I'm making any point is that I think 'you should've loaded White Base up with everything' is dumb, even if I also think some of the later units added to the 'main' family are also dumb.
>>23604204White Base is their most effective ship of the entire war. General Revil even believed the ship was filled with Newtypes. You don't need to put every Gundam ever made on it, but sending 2 or 3 extra Gundams would certainly help and be reasonable.
>>23604233>Genius. Though if you're only planning on using White Base as a distraction I suppose it could workAnd what did all the other White Base class ships do during the war? Not much.
>>23603710>Because the real answer is Sunrise/Bandai didn't want to sell an OVA without at least one Gundam in itWhy not just have one Gundam?Gundam Ez8 is a pretty solid design.
They did try to send extra Gundams to White Base. NT1 is one of them, FAG parts were another idea but it ran into development issues, Pixie was also meant to go to White Base.
>>23604249>Mudrock and G3 for example did jackshit during the warNah, Mudrock was instrumental in foiling the Midnight Fenrirs attack on Jaburo & the subsequent Feddie recapture of California base.G3 was even more important in that it was the testbed for the magnetic coating tech that made piloting the Gundam even better for Amuro & the immediate predecessor to the Alex. And in the novelization, the G3 was Amuro's replacement for the RX-78-2 whose frame was already fried by all the high-intensity maneuvers Amuro forced it to perform.
>>23604293>And what did all the other White Base class ships do during the war? Not much.Not much that we've seen, you mean.Sounds like we need MORE OYW content, amirite?
>>23599199The Zeon siblings were too busy trying to fuck one another over than considering helping. We see it with the Dom's, Ramba Ral and M'quve. Why not send a new weapon to guys going after the White Base? Well they're Dozle's guys, not Kycillia's guys. Helping Ramba Ral means glory for Dozle, not Kycillia
>>23604319>They did try to send extra Gundams to White Base. NT1 is one of them,No they didn't. It was sent to some random Colony and got destroyed.
>>23604477Has this argument gone so far past the point of reason that we're now having to litigate the basic premises of shows? It was intended for Amuro, since he was their most prominent newtype ace. It didn't make it there because the war ended before it could finish testing, and then some jackass in a Zaku did his best to total it.
>>236035671. Ground gundam was adapted to operate in gravity exclusively, also artist interpretation changed2. Luna titanium doesn't seem to be the limiting factor since ground GMs used it too, so I'm guessing lots of spare high spec internals that were earmarked for replacements when the RX78 needed them but wound up being used on a separate model instead3. RX78 had extra features for space combat that would mean more expense for stuff that's just literal dead weight in gravity, ground gundams were optimised for their theatre of war
>>23604539I also usually interpret the spare parts thing to mean things like tooling for rejected or redesigned components. Like the shoulder design could've been something that was built for material choice validation that had to be altered anyway for the RX-78, but was perfectly fine for the needs of the Ground Gundam project. I think people taking it as 'literally every piece is supposed to have been a Gundam part that failed QC' are being a bit narrow.
>>23602793That's a really weird autoloader design. Especially since the OG Guntank didn't need all that
>>23604581The original's guns are magic, there's not enough room in most depictions for a proper loading mechanism, and they aren't shown as having to return to a specific position to load between rounds so that limits the options pretty severely.
>>23604560That's fair, if you're working to make a knee joint or something, you might wind up with 99 prototypes and a blueprint for what made the final model the best.
>>23604602Yeah, or you thought prototype #58 was the one and made it to production before someone caught a flaw, or you ordered what was meant to be the same component from two different factories only to find out one wasn't quite identical in a way you needed, or a billion other things that can go wrong, especially when rushing a wartime project.The Federation essentially crash developing their first production mobile suit and trying to leapfrog Zeon's designs in the process mid-war is probably going to lead to some waste.
>>23604599I mean the cockpit is in the head of Guntank, so obviously the loading mechanism is in the chest.
>>23604609Agreed, and a lot of these waste designs are going to be close enough to the final that in a pinch you could shave off a bit or rework some balances to get something useable, once you know your endpoint.
>>23604614The retarded ass core fighter is in the chest.
>>23604614Anon, unless the loading mechanism features a teleporter and fits neatly around the core fighter it's going to be pretty tricky getting rounds into the guns.If you handwave the stowage, the easiest fix would be having the cannon have to return to a vertical 'home' position between rounds, then you could say it's locking into an autoloader that passes a shell up into the breach.As-is I don't think there's actually a way to get a round in those guns unless they're muzzle loaders.>>23604615The external components that people get hung up on would probably be the easiest parts to fabricate new too if required. Designing a new shell to encompass your bodged together head sensors is probably a lot easier than from-scratch designing the guts of the head.
>>23597732I just here to say that the Shiro and Aina romance is one of the worst written romances I've seen in Gundam.Shiro barely knows Aina, and is suddenly willing to betray his teammates, and throw away his entire career to be with her. What a joke.Only Kou and Nina's relationship is barely worse because Nina helped Gato commit genocide.
>>23604620Absolutely, one of the reasons Ez-8 was fine to be completely rebuilt with custom armour but they had to resort to a GM head for the other ground gundam. You can slap on new plating as much as the servos can hold, but they can't pull a full sensor suited out of their asses, and the gundam heads are out of stock.
>>23604620>Anon, unless the loading mechanism features a teleporter and fits neatly around the core fighter it's going to be pretty tricky getting rounds into the guns. 1. The Guntank is freaking tall and massive. 2. The shells are only 120mm. The same as a modern Abrams tank. There is absolutely no problem fitting a 120mm autoloader into the massive body of the Guntank.
>>23604338Mudrock didn't stop shit, it jobbed at Jaburo, Fenrir retreated because the overall attack failed, their only job was to disable the Blanc Rival, which they did.Later Mudrock tried to stop the HLVs and failed again.G3 being used for magnetic coating isn't unique to it, Alex was also being tested for that purpose, doesn't change the fact that they could have sent it over when they upgraded the Gundam instead of giving it to a different ship that was too late to arrive
>>23604690nigga are you telling me the 120mm shells are being fed upward through hollow spaces in the waist armor?
>>23601268>>23597953>Or even when Norris literally says the Guntanks will shoot down the Kerguelen so he needs to kill them first?A Guntank shooting down a rocket moving fast enough to break from Earth's gravity into orbit? Are you people stupid? There's literally a line in the original Gundam anime where they say, "It's impossible to shoot down a flying target with a Guntank! We need a dedicated anti-aircraft gun." Then they even TRY to shoot down planes, and the Guntank misses horribly.
>>23604690Anon you keep ignoring how the shells get into the fucking guns. That's the much more important problem. There is no breach block or discernable rear to the gun facing into anywhere it could be feeding shells in from. It ends in a hinge, the whole thing is just barrel. It's a child's drawing of a cannon. Any design that introduces more to make it look more mechanically plausible, like the MG, is already deviating from the actual design.
>>23604800>A different mobile suit firing at a target that can be evasive missed, so this other mobile suit firing at a target that has to move predictably couldn't ever hitIt's not relevant unless you take the line that it's impossible to mean all Guntank patterned mobile suits shoot shells that have a moral objection to hitting anything not on land and will choose to miss.
>>23604759>>23604812You both are forgetting how small 120mm shells are. They are the same size as a modern Abrams tank shell. What you think is a hinge is probably a loader, and a 120mm tank shell could probably fit through it.
>>23604831I think you're using a later kit manual retcon to handwave away the fact that the design clearly forgot to account for it, unless you really think the intention was to see the massive diameter and assume it was firing something comparatively tiny out of it instead, and also assuming that the fact it's a '120mm cannon' means it's shooting rounds the same as today's in length but that's a digression.I'm not saying this means the original Gundam is garbage and to be thrown out or anything, it's just an oversight (or something they simply didn't care about) in the Guntank and to a lesser degree Guncannon.If you go back to the pictures of the MP Guntank's reloading, you can see they were essentially trying to find a way to make a shell that it looks like those cannons should actually be firing load while keeping within the rough profile of the original design.My point is that the 'original guntank firing mechanism' is handwave magic, and if they'd gone that route people would probably instead be complaining that the 'realistic and gritty' OVA is using a Guntank that could never properly reload.
>>23604843>the intention was to see the massive diameterThe cannon barrel walls could just be made extra thick to reduce heat build-up, and add extra durability. It's been done before. It also makes more sense since the Guntank is able to rapid fire the shoulder cannons like a machine gun in the anime. Something an artillery cannon definitely can't do.
>>23604759I think you need to re-watch 0079. They got rid of the corefighter, and upgraded the Guntank to be controlled fully in the head cockpit. So yeah it's possible to have the auto loader in the chest. There's even a anime scene where the Guntank takes a direct hit to the chest, and Hayato says that attack damaged the loading system and he can't reload anymore. So Guntank retreats away.
>>23604621Prime zeek pussy got niggas acting unwise. >>23604800You realize that the ship was launching from a tunnel right? The goal is to find and destroy the tunnel before it can launch.Thats what guntanks do. They destroy static objectives.
>>23604676Kind of related, back in the 90's NASA was running experiments with early neural network implementations to create autopilots that live adjusted their model of the aircraft based on how it responded to control inputs. The idea was to see if it was practical to make an autopilot that could handle an aircraft in a degraded condition, like damaged control surfaces or missing entire systems, since normal autopilots base their control inputs on a model of the aircraft that assumes conventional function and can't assist in a crisis.Point is there's precedent for control systems that could compensate for irregular internals or heavier field modifications. Every Ground Gundam could be an artisan creation with no two fully parts interchangeable and software could make them all handle the same. I don't think they ever say it in the show but I know the HGUC Revive manual referred to the 'MAX mode' as disabling some of the software safeties meant to protect the jank construction.>>23604871If the best engineers of AE and the EFF have to build a cannon that big to fire something equivalent to a modern 120mm shell then they deserved to lose the OYW.Never mind that there's '90mm' machine guns on Zeon suits that need longer mag wells, or that the Zaku II's 120mm rounds are visibly longer than could fit through there in pretty much every interpretation.>>23604886I think you just need to accept that the Guntank has always been a goofy design that didn't think too hard about any of this.
>>23604831Buddy,does >>23602404 look the same fucking size to you?
>>23604887>The goal is to find and destroy the tunnel before it can launch. >Thats what guntanks do. They destroy static objectives.Not that anon but I'm confused. Was Norris afraid the Guntanks would collapse the base via artillery bombardment? Or was he afraid the Guntanks would shoot down the ship after it launched? Because if Norris was attacking to destroy their artillery to take pressure off the mountain base and give his comrades enough time to launch, then that makes much more sense.
>>23604903question, did you look at the scenes where the guntanks were shooting the base and what they hit?
>>23604905IIRC the ship launched from a different tunnel area of the base.
>>23604886>remove the core fighter>remove the actual power source of the tank and it can still be usedpost a screenshot
>>23604903When the ship launches, the hidden tunnel that the feds had been bombing trying to find would open. That would show the feds where to "plug the barrel" so to speak. If they hit the tunnel what so ever when that things blasting ass down it, it would hit the debris and get immediately owned by it.It's every bit as dangerous to the ship as taking a round in the air, of which the feds had snipers on standby, as well as the air wing that had been conventionally bombing the mountain itself.Taking out the guntanks was the biggest priority because they can do the most damage to the launching ship by destroying the launcher.
>>23604912Your plan has one flaw: Minovsky Particles. They mess up targeting and long range communication. There's no way they can reliable hit a target so precisely under Minovsky Particles at combat density.
>>23604918If they were using missiles you might have a point. They have cannons, they merely have to point them at the "ship sized hole" in the side of the mountain where the massive heat signature is screaming out of. The only hold up is that hole was hidden by the launch tunnel hatch and they couldnt find it yet. Once it opens, that's when your window to shoot it is. Minovsky particles arent going to stop you at that point.
>>23600167Amuro is literally Goku and Char is literally Vegeta
>>23604918WWI already had creeping barrage where they time artillery fire precisely together with infantry march, that shit has been possible since ~111 years ago even with shitty basic communications. you don't need to see the target, you just need to calculate the trajectory if told to fire at a spot on the map.aina being able to broadcast the ultimatum to the feddies proves there's no minovsky jamming in effect, otherwise she wouldn't be able to demand a ceasefire.
>>23604925>>23604937Minovsky Particles messes with optics too. It's one of the main reasons why Federation and Zeon ships have to get to point blank range to shoot eachother. And it's why they can't just snipe eachothers ships from a safe distance. Their shots go wildly off target.
>>23604949so what part of that changes how there's no minovsky jamming or that they ain't looking when shooting?
>>23604949Don't mistake trouble getting a firing solution for trouble making shots go straight. If you know where to hit you can still be precise, the hard part is knowing where to hit when there's heavy minovsky interference.If you can identify the grid square, your artillery can still delete it. It's also probably much less of an issue on Earth where you still have terrain, magnetic North, all sorts of other cues to assist in target location. Space is where it really fucks you because you don't have any fixed frame of reference of note.
>>23604937Laser communication
>>23604988That's optical point to point communication, dumbass. You can't just broadcast a laser transmission like you would a radio, they couldn't just jump on the Federation's laser net like they could transmit a radio on a feddie channel.
I like how the guy immediately started shitting on Feddy artillery when it turned out the Zeeks didn't have any, as if the Zeek versions weren't prone to the same disadvantages
>>23605004Laser communication is not foul proof. You can forcibly hijack laser communications if you know where the receiver is located.
>>23604983>Space is where it really fucks you because you don't have any fixed frame of reference of note.I mean you have all the stars in the sky, Earth, Luna, Sol, ect...
>>23605023Not as useful as 'by that hill over there on your map' for targetting in a sensor compromised environment.>>23605019And this capability that's never shown and never alluded to being used makes more sense than the interference just being low?>>23605007And he's now demanding people justify every little thing incoherently to justify not liking the fight.I swear to god he's going to ask how feddie guns fire if we've never seen feddie propellant charges.
>>23603567The ground gundam use spare parts of the gundam but dont use all of its parts, my guess is it just using sensor, armor and power plants from the line seeing as literaly everything else is worse and dissimilar. In 8th team we get to see the joint mechanisms for the ground gundam's foot. Its a standard gearbox and hydraulics. if you were to take that into space the gears would cold weld themselves frozen. The 78-2 needed a coating for a magnetic field that the joint mechanisms rely on and produce for locomotion, a gearbox doesnt do that especialy with hydraulics. So to me the ground gundams existence totaly makes sense seeing as its literally your tweaked gm you just mentioned for the same reason... using gundam parts.This is probably how the Ez8 came to be now that I think about it.
>>23604937The message was being broadcasted from her fuckoff massive mobile suit, meaning it was louder than the interference. The replies were being broadcast from an entire base, meaning it was louder than the interference.
>>23605040>yeah lemme just make up this bullshit and also ignore that the GM sniper and Jet Core Booster were also able to communicate two-way with the Big Tray>or that the 08th MS team members were able to talk with each other>or that Shiro and Norris could hear each other>or that the Guntank crews were being given firing instructions by Eledore>trust me bro, they're all blind and deaf and everyone's just acting on cues and assumptions because I know the radio doesn't work
>>23605060And we know the radio doesn't work because the indirect fire shouldn't work but is, of course.
>>23605027Pretty much. The EFF had a war that needed fighting now and they couldn't wait for the perfectionism of Operation V to deliver something, so they spun up a project to use what they could borrow and slap together the rest to get something functional sooner, so they could start using mobile suits and spinning up the institutional knowledge to support them. Limiting scope to Earth both focused on the current most important front and gave a lot of leeway in design relative to a space-capable unit. It's probably the best excuse for more Gundams in the OYW other than maybe the Alex. Real hardware is full of stuff like the plane being ready before the intended gun, the gun being ready before the intended plane, the early model tank coming off the line knowing an improvement is already in acceptance testing, initial production runs knowing core systems will need to be replaced once the intended guts of the fire control system are ready, the new turret for the old tank so you don't have to wait ten more years to field the improvements for the next gen tank, military vehicles are insanely complex cross-discipline projects that're really made up of a thousand sub-projects running on their own timelines with their own issues. It's super common to roll finished parts of one project into another, especially when holdups with the original project are causing a critical gap in a capability.If anything, it'd be weirder if everyone just sat on their hands and waited until Tem Ray was done making his perfect machine that's not even a direct prototype for the production model.
>>23605040Gihren's Greed games give a good sense of how interference/Minovsky particle baseline and spread works (condensed at some distances around sources at least as big as MS carriers and MA, needs some time to build up close to ensure max interference close to the source)
>>23605060all those examples except the gm sniper were right next to eachother and the same distance away from aina. I can imagine also that the base's communication systems can probably focus onto a localized spot for specialized two way communications, like microwave transmitters do. I dont understand the hostility in your post this is not a hard concept considering 9 square law. That means that yeah the only obstacle was the minovsky particle interference at range for the guntanks that would probably need a spotter and orders from base relaying spotter orders.
>>23603650Unit 3 was spare parts for Unit 2 on the White Base iirc, which other one didn't see service?>>23603789Swapping out the White Base's Guncannon, Guntank, and Sayla's Gundam B Parts vehicles for GMs would have been a good play but concentrating another Gundam onto the White Base would have been a mistake
>>23605254>Swapping out the White Base's Guncannon, Guntank, and Sayla's Gundam B Parts vehicles for GMs would have been a good play but concentrating another Gundam onto the White Base would have been a mistakeisn't that what happened in Origin? I've not seen/read it so idk
>>23605025>And this capability that's never shown and never alluded to being used makes more sense than the interference just being low? She's in a giant mobile armor that shoots a giant laser.
>>23605526Ah yes clearly this is the All Laser Types For All Jobs Testbed Mobile Armor. How foolish of me.This makes so much more sense then a radio.
>>23605526>>23605580That post was so retarded it rubbed off on me for a second and I forgot that it's not even a laser, it's a particle beam. Because this is UC and they use particle beams, not lasers as weapons.
>>23604937Except they literally say that the Minovsky Particles are dense in the battle area and lose connection in a scene. >aina being able to broadcast the ultimatum to the feddies proves there's no minovsky jamming in effect, otherwise she wouldn't be able to demand a ceasefire.Laser communication between jets. One jet relays the info to a nearby plane and that plane relays the info on a chain which eventually leads back to base.
bro, minovsky didnt even stop kou and gato from shitposting at each other, its not as big a deal as its made out to beno (you) because you arent even trying at this point
>>23605790Because they were standing next to eachother. Minovsky Particles jam long range. Not two mobile suits standing next to eachother.
>>23605790Retard.
>>23605254>Unit 3 was spare parts for Unit 2 on the White Base iirc, which other one didn't see service?Unit 1 was only ever used for testing at Side 7, was blown up by the Zeon raid, and then was relegated to spare parts for Unit 2.
>>23605790they dont block visible light, gundam uses laser pulses to communicate
>>23608182>was blown up by the Zeon raidIts armor is practically the same as RX-78-2's, how was it destroyed so easily anyway?
>>23608745it wasn't fighting back so it wasn't dodging
>>23599701My head cannon was Side 5 was caught in crossfire between the battle causing most of the damage. This was supposed to be a cataclysmic battle, the EFSF was throwing everything at it to stop another colony drop.
>>23601412The guntanks were a threat to the base, they could damage facilities and equipment needed to launch a space craft.
>>23608734the scenes in question show a radio making scans on the low and medium frequency bands. AM radio. Shit a baofeng radio can do. Had absolutely fuck all to do with laser communication.
>>23601102>Actually, he says the Kerguelen would get shot down by the Gundam's beam weaponshis initial mission was to destroy the guntanks, because they were able to shoot down the shuttlethe he noticed gundams have beam weapons, which he didn't expect, but which also could shoot down the shuttleso his mission became killing the guntanks and the beam weaponsit's all consistent
This thread proves that 08th MS team had a lot of potential, but the execution was done badly.So many flaws, plot holes, and character problems.They should just reboot 08th MS team and try again.
>>23609344op go to bed
>>23598271What's stopping you picking up a mortar with a pair of tongs and using it effectively?
>>23609418What was stopping Norris from killing Shiro during the river fight?
>>23608745it was in pieces and so got shot in its unarmored innardsit was too close to an exploding fuel barrel
>>23611195that, and Amuro used the Super Napalm to destroy whatever they couldn't salvage or take with them.
>>23608734They actually do distort light but the ranges are better. Higher frequency EM spectrum is less disrupted than lower frequency, but even visible light is still distorted at ranges of 20km which is actually a lot.It's all EM so it's all affected. IR is also naturally affected. And iirc Minovsky reactors don't have the problems of real reactors (fission and hypothetical fusion) so you can't use X-ray telescopes for detection either.
>>23611290true but as minovsky decay or fade or whatever they could also be releasing their own EM waves and if they are we dont see them emitting any noticeable amount of visible which could also be a reason visual communication hold up better
>>23611866Agreed, that could be possible. It's all guesswork since I doubt there's gonna be a scientifically minded writer in UC's future that will want to use the specific mechanics of Minovsky particles like this in some plot point. But your theory is reasonable and I don't dislike it.
>>23601222Guntanks could still shell the launch rail or hangar opening. Maybe even get off lucky hits during the rockets acceleration phase. There's also the possibility that Norris just had no idea the MP guntanks weren't capable of AA fire. For all we know Zeon could have shit intel and Norris just genuinely didn't know they weren't as capable as the one on White Base.
>>23597732The guntanks were important in that scene because they were being used to shell a fortified bunker. A regular beam rifle isn't going to do much there for that.
88>>23602365Actually no, it wasn't. The MKII in ZZ was the one of the original three that was sent to AE to be studied early in zeta. It appears several episodes into ZZ when the Argama got its resupply because AE had no use for it anymore and the Argama needed more MS as they lost most of theirs at Gryps.
>>23597732Wow, you really know nothing about military theory. >Meanwhile in the OG gundamWasn't present. Ground Type Gundams were made of spare parts and weren't much better than GMs. In fact, there wasn't enough spare parts to fix them so the 08th MS team had one Gundam with a GM head and one with a partial rebuild. >more lethal than any guntank crap.Lethality isn't linear. In this case, the Guntanks had better range than anything Zeon had in the mountain so they could keep shooting until the base surrendered. >>23604800Don't have to hit the ship, they could just hit the launch bay and cause a collapse.
>>23597732In theory the Guntank was probably in a position to be the most OP>Two big ass cannons >Relatively mobileI mean think about it, the only reason Gundam is so good is because shit was written for it to do
>>23600167There's an inuniverse reasoning in the form of propagandaThe Gundam is infamous to zeons so many info from the zeon perspective should be exaggerated for effect, therein elevating the GundamPower scaling in the DBZ tense is because people such as yourself are retarded and childlike
I know tigers had lone ops, but since when did TDs and assault guns have no infantry support and allow enemy soldiers to "walk up without little resistance"
>>23603800Right the outlandishness comes from the tactics>There's a big ass mountain>Lets advance to it via the city it overlooks, therein insuring all our artillery is ripe for ambushThe fuck is that
>>23616760>In addition, the Ferdinand was hampered by flaws such as the lack of peripheral vision blocks. But contrary to popular belief, the lack of a mounted machine gun was not a problem for the Ferdinand during Operation Citadel. For example, a report by the commander of the 654th Heavy Tank Destroyer Unit stated that due to the noise of the Ferdinand firing and the Ferdinand's effect on Soviet troops, no Soviet infantry was capable of engaging the Ferdinand in close combat. Furthermore, a Red Army commission examined the Ferdinand tank destroyers abandoned at Ponyri and found that they had been set on fire with Molotov cocktails, not by Soviet infantry, but by German crews who had abandoned their tanks.[10] On the other hand, Heinz Guderian himself complained in his autobiography that the Elefant, much as other failed designs, suffered from lack of close-range protection against infantry assaults.[11]>In the initial stages of the Kursk battle, when the Germans were on the offensive, vehicles could be recovered and repaired with relative peace at night; this at first allowed the majority of knocked-out Ferdinands to be rescued, repaired and returned to duty. However, once the tide of battle had turned against the Germans and they fell back on the defensive, with fewer vehicles to spare, functional Ferdinands with minor damage to their tracks or suspensions had little hope of recovery, and crews were usually forced to destroy the vehicle to prevent a mostly intact Jagdpanzer from falling into the hands of the Soviets.
>>23616765City means roads and infrastructure for easy transport and resupply. Fuck having to clear 20 meter wide paths for vehicles and mobile suits through forests, or getting vehicles stuck in rocky, muddy, hilly jungle terrain.
>>23609400With you? :3
>>23616206>Wasn't present. Ground Type Gundams were made of spare parts and weren't much better than GMs. In fact, there wasn't enough spare parts to fix them so the 08th MS team had one Gundam with a GM head and one with a partial rebuild.No one cares about this retarded backfilling garbage that isn't in the show itself. The GM Head was for one joke and the Ez8 ended up being the mid series upgrade.
Wait a second. Are you telling me that the Ground Gundam is NOT an evolution of Ground GM? Why not??? They look exactly the same except the head is different.
>>23617677It makes more sense that both are evolutions of the rx78It's the efsf, everything is a ball, a Gundam, or a jim
>>23600167>Stop talking about Amuro like hes Goku or somethingANY "newtype" is by default far superior to any normal pilot, from feeling attack in their through minosvky particles, to predicting it ahead of time.And while other protag since claimed to be even stronger, Amuro was at the time the best known.
>>23598271JammingGuntanks are used mostly against static targets thanks to the Federation being present in big enough numbers to transmit targeting data.A Zaku with a 180mm cannon would not know where the Guntank are.Remember, they needed a goddamn sound-tracking support vehicle to detect enemy via soundstep/vibrationEven if the last 2 episodes of the show were a clusterfuck with no consistency
>>23599503It's incredible enough Zeon could take on the Federation, even unprepared.>Why doesnt Zeon have enough ships to blockade Luna 2?The Fed can launch from other colonies, even if less protected, so while you blockade this one, the enemy either get a chance at your own base or intercept your supply line.>Why doesn't Zeon take or destroy Luna 2?Given the size even damaging it would require driving a colony sized object into it, and unlike a colony Luna 2 is HEAVY, not empty so it might not even notice unless you aim for the entry door like a castle ram.The numbers for the colony drop are grossly exaggerated, asteroids a thousant time heavier than a O'neill colony didn't leave crater this big on Earth.>Before any treaty was signed, why not hit Luna 2 with nuclear missiles and destroy it?As said before it would not be enough, also nuclear missiles are much weaker in space because there's no medium to turn into overheated expanding shockwave.>>23599701As said by >>23601068 (I guess you've seen it since) a colony is puny compared to Luna II.Space colony are also very fragile. Realistically a single nuke inside the colony would be enough to make it explode like a tin can full of gunpowder.
>>23600923>Yeah yeah, char could do it too. kamille could do it too. judau could do it too. even fa yuri scored kills against grunts.All are Newtype, literally precognition in a world with jamming that affect visual sight
>>23601677>compelling story with clear stakesYou need consistency for that, even if you retcon and work as if each scenario was unique and just happened to take inspiration from otherBad sci-fi is the result of making shit up as you want and acting like your reader/spectators have less than 30mn of memory
>>23616747>The Gundam is infamous to zeons so many info from the zeon perspective should be exaggerated for effect, therein elevating the GundamSave me captain Zeon!
>>23618055>As said before it would not be enough, also nuclear missiles are much weaker in space because there's no medium to turn into overheated expanding shockwave. But Gp02 used a single nuke and melted half of Solomon.
>>23619359>But Gp02 used a single nuke and melted half of Solomon.I assume the GP02 used some sort of Casaba Howitzer type weapon, because the way it's shown is not how nukes work at all.
>>23619359As the guy you quoted I would not defend 0083. It did have good concepts here and here but other than that it was just chessy "big gun fire big laser"It's as ridiculous as 08th MS team Apsalus 3 holing a mountain.I vaguely remember reading the show changed of director midway. If so, the new guy couldn't be bothered to keep things coherent. Remind me of the stupid transformation of the Apsalus 3 which I would also suspect to be some misinterpreted instruction no one care to check.>>23619360>Casaba HowitzerEven such weapon would not do anything to an asteroid, actually, you'd be better nuking it because it would be directly in contact with the surface
I fucking swear, gundam is so wishy-washy about this shitthey will never fucking confirm if nukes were used in the beginning of the OYWsure the databooks' written lore is full of that shit, but then you get MS Igloo and Origin both refusing to show any
>>23619787>they will never fucking confirm if nukes were used in the beginning of the OYWpretty sure that's been a stable since the start. Nukes and chemical weapons were used by both sides (or at least nukes were), hence the Antarctic Treaty
>>23619823yeah but they won't fucking show it
>>23619360It's not how that concept works either. Best to just chalk it up to poetic license.>>23619767>Remind me of the stupid transformation of the Apsalus 3 which I would also suspect to be some misinterpreted instruction no one care to check.I always figured that was so it didn't have to deal with lateral wobble and to get the reactors out into better airflow at the same time. Guess they'd be pretty useless at bracing the thing once it's firing though, so not much point.
>>23619827I think Japan is still sensitive about showing them big bombs, so this part is best said than showed.Plus those parts would not have much giant robot action, if at all.
>>23622342>>23619827The most offensive part is them claiming to make an early OYW anime, but still refusing to show nukes and chemical weapons being used. What kind of sanitized nonsense is this? Either do it properly or don't bother making it.
>>23617677Ground gundam and ground GM were made roughly the same time, they're both offshoots rather than one preceding the other.
>>23622404>but still refusing to show nukes and chemical weapons being usedThe start of 08th MS team is a chemical attackhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments/v0t4pf/cima_gasses_shiros_colony/The end of the series had one of the general knowingly sent a MS to die in a trapped tunnel and count that as a nuclear attack (since MS use nuclear reactor)The word "nuclear" may be taboo but Japan sure have regular nuclear-like explosion in their anime.
>>23601272>guntank with the launchers moved to wrist mounted and standard hands added so it can hold guns as wellIts perfect!
>>23618030Yazan dunked on newtypes because he is just that good.
>>23622689Cima not knowing she was gassing a Colony is such a weird retcon. How could she not know the giant containers that were attaching to the Colony's air system wasn't gas? It was so much better when Cima was opportunistic and didn't care about anyone's lives except her own and her crew. In 0083, Cima was willing to kill Billions of people with no remorse as long as her crew got benefits.I hate this stupid retcon the writers are doing.
>>23623410Wasn't it that she thought it was noxious or anesthetizing but not outright poison?
>>23623428Again, that's the retcon reason added later. Originally she was a ruthless soldier of Zeon's special marine division. She carried out her orders without objection. But Zeon discarded her after losing the war. Neo Zeon refused to grant her and her fleet passage to Axis. They blamed her fleet for war crimes even though she was just carrying out orders of Giren Zabi. So she became bitter and turned against Zeon becoming a pirate. That's why she betrayed Admiral Delaz.But now the writers are saying she had no idea it was poison gas? Lmao. Is it just because she's hot that they don't want to keep her as evil? Lmao Pathetic horny Japanese writers.
>>23623487Ah, thanks for the clarification.
>>23623428Anesthetising someone without a specialist monitoring their vitals and very finely adjusting the mixture is just killing them the long way around. A group of GRU Spetsnaz tried it for real about 25 years ago, didn't end well. And then the terrorists had gas masks anyway so they'd just gassed the hostages.
>>23623487>Again, that's the retcon reason added later.Not really a recent thing, Mayfly came out around the same time as Stardust was finishing, there's fair reason to believe Cima was intended to be sympathetic very early on since it showed she had nightmares about what she's done and did regret it deep down despite her pretending otherwise
>>23630482Mayfly of Space didn't give any specifics on why she was having a nightmare about her time in the One Year War. Her being tricked into thinking the chemical weapon she used inside Island Iffish was from a Gihren's Greed game using information from Entertainment Bible 39 (Zeon soldiers not being told they were using GG gas).
>>23630664Forgot to mention this but do note both EB 39 and the Gihren's Greed games came almost a decade after Mayfly of Space.
>>23630664>Entertainment Bible 39 >As guerilla warfare against Zeon continued, the lifestyle of soldiers on Earth became increasingly wild, and they began breaking into civilian homes to commit lootings and assaults. This was also influenced by the nature of the Federation Forces, in which, unless they had gone through military academy, nobody could ever be promoted beyond the rank of junior officer no matter their achievements.>Meanwhile, what of the Zeon forces? Not only did they have a sense of purpose in fighting for the sake of their nation, but if they could distinguish themselves by merit, then becoming a general was no mere dream. Thus, many of them freely chose to participate in dangerous missions. As they went up in rank, they could also receive perks such as custom-made machines and greatly improved treatment.>Because they had objectives like these, the discipline of the Zeon troops was well maintained, and even in the occupied cities they rarely ran wild committing inhumane acts as Federation soldiers did. They were always gentlemen on the battlefield.Zeon troops might (unknowingly!) gas populations and then drop them on the planet but they'd never ever ever commit a war crime.
>>23630684>Because they had objectives like these, the discipline of the Zeon troops was well maintained, and even in the occupied cities they rarely ran wild committing inhumane acts as Federation soldiers did. They were always gentlemen on the battlefield.These databook retcons really bend over backwards to make Zeon sound noble. Why can't these authors respect Tomino's original vision of Zeon being evil?
>>23623410They told her it was new car smell.
>>23630664The actual audio drama did, if you're just looking at the picture drama it doesn't actually show you the full story.
>>23630684>>23630752It's wild to see them basically trying to make Clean Wehrmacht shit canon in a different setting.I wonder how much is their slightly odd perspective on the western front and how much is a conscious or unconscious desire to defang Zeon's original intent very much being an explicit rejection of any attempts at postwar revisionism. Same for how much more German-coded they get once others get involved.Honestly fascinating that some people might see an uncomfortable parallel there and end up in a proxy war.I think it's also kind of wild to suggest that 'Remember Sydney' and 'kick Space Jerry back where they came from' wouldn't be enough of a unifying rallying cry to give a sense of purpose. Rally-round-the-flag is a real thing. Or that a bunch of Spacenoids wouldn't be wondering 'wait, why the fuck are we conquering Earth, I just signed up to fight to free the colonies'.
>>23630836>I think it's also kind of wild to suggest that 'Remember Sydney' and 'kick Space Jerry back where they came from' wouldn't be enough of a unifying rallying cry to give a sense of purpose.It's something you see in the stories themselves. Zeon's crazy mass murder is barely acknowledged as character motivation. So, you go from that to aimless unmotivated troops, even though overlooking Zeon's actions makes no sense.
>>23630836I wonder how much of this internalized guilty for the atrocities Imperial Japan did to occupied cities during WW2? Especially that line in the databooks about Zeon treated occupied cities well, being "absolute gentlemen" during wartime, and more civilized than Federation troops. It's just so bizarre that the databook authors go out of their way to say it. During WW2, The Japanese treated occupied cities and prisoners of war absolutely horribly. UmIt's so bad that Japan refuses talk about it when discussing history or teaching about WW2. They've scrubbed it from their history books. To them, WW2 was Japan's misguided "War of expansion". And 2 nukes got dropped on them out of nowhere for no reason. It's really weird reading about WW2 in Japanese history books.
>>23604269Actual brain damage take
>>23597732>>23597773The downplaying of the groundgundams is crazy. They had high durability, high firepower with a strong reactor. They're better than most of what zeon is fielding at the time aside from the Doms, which outperform the RX-78-1 and 2 on Earth.
>>23600167Facts. I'm an Amurofag but there are some COLD pilots in the side material that are comperable to him. Brave Cod and Ford Romfellow are oldtypes but would beat him in a 1v1
>>23630885I could this during the 80s and 90s. A lot of those Japanese Gundam writers for databooks and novels were fans of WW2. Tomino specifically said Zeon was an allegory for Japan especially with how the Federation had to do Island hopping to slowly beat Zeon.Feds had to counterattack in earth, take Odessa, retake other Zeon bases, launch into space, retake earth orbit, reinforce Luna 2, attack Solomon, attack A Boa Que, attack Zeon home colonies. It's an allegory for the Pacific war
>>23616747>Power scaling in the DBZ tense is because people such as yourself are retarded and childlikewhat did you even mean by this i was saying powerscaling is stupid
>>23630836>I think it's also kind of wild to suggest that 'Remember Sydney' and 'kick Space Jerry back where they came from' wouldn't be enough of a unifying rallying cry to give a sense of purpose. Rally-round-the-flag is a real thing.This actually brings up something more interesting, to me at least, about the EF and it's population(s). The EF is a post national abomination. The Government has only existed for 79 years. Old people would clearly remember a Pre federation world. Almost everyone alive in 0079 would have some kind of family member who would have told them about the old order, and who their national identity was. On earth people would because of this probably still be identifying themselves based on what their great grandparents were. Would someone born I the Pre federation really ever say they're an Earthnoid or a Freddy? Almost certainly not. The other major problem is that the federation government is an entity that creates no love for itself. It's been deporting people to space for decades. The federation's actions at the same time were also creating the spacenoid identity. I honestly don't think there can be a large federation identity/eaethnoid identity until after the OYW when Zeon created a reason for it to exist.
>>23597772>>23597773Ground Gundams were literally on par with the Gelgoog in terms of performance under atmosphere, with the Ground Gundam having better armor, weapons and equipment.
>>23600167Amuro (and Char) glazing is a cancer to this franchise. Tomino was smart and had them both take a backseat in Zeta before killing them off permanently but hack writers keep bringing them back just to suck them off.
>>23631070My guess? I think at the beginning there was a lot of Optimism about creating the Federation and a united government. Perhaps people were sold on the idea that there finally would be no more wars or conflicts on Earth. A true united government. No more divided nations. There was probably a bunch of wars and conflicts that caused the Federation to have support for its creation. Similarly, the building of the colonies were probably sold to the public as a "new beginning" or "luxury paradise". Earth was overcrowded with 14 billion people. People were being offered a chance to have a fresh start. So lots of people signed up at first to deport themselves to live in colonies. The whole idea was shipping humanity to space. That lasted until the Federation suddenly decided they only wanted to send 50% of the population to space. Then they suddenly stopped deportations. Then people realized the Federation mostly sent poor people and criminals to space. The rich people stayed on Earth. Then the Federation declared were done building Colonies after Side 7. And the people in space would not be allowed to vote. Only people on Earth could vote. This last act caused Spacenoids to hate the Federation and start a war with them.To summarize, the Federation starred with good intentions. But people were tricked and lied to. Turns out they were exiled from Earth. Only the rich were allowed to live on earth.
>>23630836The most bizarre one for me is rise from the ashes having an australian city getting on really well with their zeon occupiers. Fucking australia? After the colony drop? "oh yeah aside from the apocalyptic event that's permanently fucked our ecosystem and weather and killed all those people we knew they're actually really swell. They have like, ideals and shit">>23630885>They've scrubbed it from their history booksI don't think this has been true for a long time. It's been a while since "onwards to our noble deaths" came out and became a best seller.
>>23631214they might thank them for blowing Sydney up
