>Zeon: hurrr, we need to destroy the guntanks, ignore the gundams>Feds: guntanks are really important, don't let them be destroyedMeanwhile in the OG gundam, the RX-78-2 was 10000000x times more lethal than any guntank crap.
>>235977321) Ground Gundams are basically buffed up GMs, so it is a flawed comparison.2) Most of RX-78-2 lethality came from having a reliable beam rifle. In 08th MS Team, beam rifles are both rare and inferior, so artilery plays a more important role.
>>23597732Guntanks are more like mobile artillery who get coordinates on where to fire like irl howitzers and the RX79 ground type is slightly above a GM with since its built blem RX78 parts.
>>23597732Lol yeah when I first watched 08th MS Team after 0079 my initial thought was 'isn't 3 Gundams kinda overkill', but in universe the Gundam Ground Types aren't 'true' Gundams, more like a waste product of trying to create the Gundam, so in that sense I can totally see Guntanks having vital tactical utility that the Ground Types aren't expected to fulfil.
>>23597732Neither the Ground Gundams or their pilots are near the ability of the RX-78-2 or Amuro Ray.
>>23597817https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J85jV37CsYE
>>23597732Are you forgetting the part where all of this is happening because the feds are besieging a fortress? Or even when Norris literally says the Guntanks will shoot down the Kerguelen so he needs to kill them first?
>>23597817Originally the animation and movement was a bit.. floatier? but then they decided to have it skew a bit closer to how 0083's ground battles played out.>>23597953also because they were using them to pound the fuck out of all of the mountain base's defenses and entrances, and the zeeks didn't have much artillery or air units of their own to counter or prevent it from happening
>>23597732The weirdest part of the finale is that Zeon doesn't have counter batteries or cannons to fire back against the Guntank positions. They had absolutely no static defenses either to shoot back.Even during the final days of WW2, the Germans and Japanese still had artillery cannons and batteries to shoot enemy positions.It makes no sense that Zeon had nothing.
>>23598161At that point they'd retreated back through every last defensive line of that facility, they didn't have the strategic depth to have anything topside and stationary that wouldn't get immediately pounded by ground forces or air power. Best they could do was use the big tunnel network the Federation hadn't cleared yet to send out harassing forces to buy them the last few hours they needed.
>>23598187Okay, but what's stopping a Zaku grabbing a 180mm cannon and just firing artillery shells at the city where the Guntanks are located? The Zaku itself can be a mobile turret. We've seen that done numerous times.
>>23598271Who knows. They might not have the shells to do it, might not be set up to do indirect fire, might not have accurate enough data on their location to guarantee effective fire on an important target. If you have to put someone out there to get you a proper target anyway then it might make more sense to have them try and take it out than to have a second team emerge somewhere else as an improvised artillery section, then try to aim at a designated target while not getting their shit rocked out in the open wherever they are. At least if you're mixed in with your enemy in an urban environment you deny them the ability to just level your grid square.Unless they had a couple dozen Zakus and appropriate cannons, they wouldn't be able to do enough damage fast enough before getting levelled by counter-battery or air power if all they know is 'in that city'. Given that they allowed a single Gouf to go on a suicide mission to get the job done, I suspect they didn't have those resources spare.At some point you also just have to decide if you want to watch a cool robot fight or not. I think it's pretty reasonable here with how much Zeon's been rolled back into their bunker and worn down that they can't manage anything more.
>>23598271Maybe they thought getting in close with their more agile mechs was the better play than getting in long range artillery duels against long range artillery platforms.
>>23598187It's strange. If I recall 08th MS team correctly, in the previous episodes before the finale, Zeon was still doing quite well. They had bases and mobile suits in the area. But then the final episodes happen and it immediately cuts to Zeon getting their ass kicked and Zeon hiding in a mountain. There was no transition at all. I think that's a major problem of 08th MS team.
>>23598271Not having one I guess. Might be a supply line issue, which would be in character for zeon.
>>23598313about halfway through 08th MS team, operation odessa canonically takes place. before that point, zeon still had a decently strong position on earth. after operation odessa where the federation finally breaks the stalemate and scores a major win in europe, zeon's earth front starts collapsing.we don't see odessa in 08th MS team except for like one scene because odessa is in europe while shiro and his team are fighting in south east asia. but you see other details like admiral kellerne bitching about the feds taking odessa from them and his damaged forces having to retreat back to ginias' base, losing gear along the way.
>>23598323It was my understanding that Zeon had 3 major landing zones.North America - Under command of GarmaEurope/north Africa - (this includes Odessa) under command of Kycillia South East Asia - under command of Giren Each of these forces operated independently and didn't really support eachother. So even if one force was defeated, the others should still be fine. I don't really understand how Odessa falling means the end for Zeon on Earth. It's just one Stronghold
>>23598408Odessa Day was the start of the Feddie counter-offensive that turned the tide, the start of wide deployment of production RGM-79s to the front. Nobody says Odessa falling was literally the cause of Zeon's rout on Earth just like nobody would say the Normandy landings were the specific cause of the collapse of the Third Reich, but people still talk about how D-Day was a critical turning point.
>>23597732Yeah, If only they actually had access to said RX-78-2 in that theatre, huh.
>>23598423But this doesn't explain why Zeon rapidly fell on Earth.Just to take Odessa, it took 75% of the Earth Federation military gathered together to take the base. And even then, they almost failed.
>>23599021Garma Dies > Odessa falls > majority of zeon command on earth escapes to space > zeekes launch one last hail mary attack on jaburo led by char and it fails > apsalus is destroyed > zeon abandons the earth with no clear path left to destroy the federations ability to resist > most of the earthside zeekes surrender or fuck off and become insurgnetsIt makes perfect sense honestly just on a very shockingly squashed time scale because all of that happens in about a month.
>>23599173Wouldn't only the Odessa survivors escape? Why would the other commanders from other battlefronts on earth run away
>>23599021In other words, 25% of the Earth Federation military was enough to keep two other fronts entertained. Freeing a large chunk of the rest of the military combined with EF making better weapons would explain how they folded, don't you think?Plus, North America was probably weakened from the misadventures of the White Base.The biggest contributor though, was likely Zeon's Jaburo assault fiasco that funneled a lot of resources away from their other ground troops.
>>23599173Once again really just comes down to the insistence on the concept of the "one year war" condensing the timeline too much. Unfortunate it wasn't a year from when Amuro gets the gundam
>>23599183>In other words, 25% of the Earth Federation military was enough to keep two other fronts entertained.I always figured the two other fronts just thought>"haha. Those losers are at Odessa are under attack? No we aren't going to help them. With the Federation so busy attacking Odessa, we basically are going to get a vacation for the next 2 weeks."Or something like that.
Look at this retard who doesn’t see the value in shelling someone out of sight, miles away
>>23599182They assumed (correctly probably) that with Odessa destroyed Zeon wasn't going to be sending anyone any new HLV's or orbit capable Zanzibars. So they got while the getting was good. Yuri shows up in 08th to more or less steal Gineas's Zanzibar to get his crew home. He was only going to take Aina and her people because he had a soft spot for her and wanted to play the hero. It also might have been a play by Kycilia to leave a shit load of Ghirens more die hard supporters earthside to get them out of the way for her eventual coup. Zeon has just as many internal factors for its failures as it did external.
>>23599228>They assumed (correctly probably) that with Odessa destroyed Zeon wasn't going to be sending anyone any new HLV's or orbit capable Zanzibars.Wait. Stop here. Explain you logic. Why can't Zeon send ships to land in North America?
>>23599235iirc Zeon loses the entire west coast of the USA by December, and right before that Jaburo launches multiple whole fleets in late November to begin the new GM equipped offensive in space. Zeon lose high orbit supremacy and don't see the value in rescuing a bunch of infantry and ground type zakus who can't fight in space.
>>23597772>2) Most of RX-78-2 lethality came from having a reliable beam rifle.Most of the RX-78-2's lethality came from Amuro sitting in the cockpit.
>>23599298That too. Having his pilot data made lives of EF shoefitters a lot easier, considering that Gundams and GMs are harder to control than Zeon's mobile suits as is.Still, you can't just pin it all just on Amuro considering other EFF aces with 100+ kills, like Tenneth A. Tung.
>>23599301>Still, you can't just pin it all just on Amuro considering other EFF aces with 100+ kills, like Tenneth A. Tung.Yeah, those kill counts are inflated from the way EFSF regulations count mobile suits being docked in HLVs as "individual" kills. Jung was part of the space front shooting down Zeon HLVs fleeing Odessa.
Federation sudden comeback makes no sense. Zeon destroyed almost their entire space fleet. How is the Federation regaining space supremacy?
>>23599424I don't think that they ever got space supremacy. IIRC they just crushed Zeon's hope of getting the Earth and than gone for blitzkrieg on some of their important locations.
>>23599424Luna II is still an EF foothold in space, and Zeon never fully controlled Earth's orbit or space itself even post Operation British. There's an entire IGLOO episode dedicated to Zeon trying to shoot down fleets that Jaburo keeps launching, and before the EF had widespread MS use stuff like the Ball Minelayer produced their highest scoring anti-ship aces.
>>23599472I don't disagree with events. But it seems odd that Zeon suddenly became impotent after winning the Battle of Loum and smashing the Federation space fleet. They should be at the peak of their power. Why doesnt Zeon have enough ships to blockade Luna 2?Why doesn't Zeon take or destroy Luna 2?Before any treaty was signed, why not hit Luna 2 with nuclear missiles and destroy it? Char was able to do it with just 14 ships during CCA.I just want an explanation so I can understand Zeon's lack of strength despite winning the space war.
>>23599503Zeon crippled the EFSF's offensive capabilities through speed and surprise, that doesn't mean they have the capability to mop up every single space asset in a more protracted fight, especially now that the EFSF knows what Zeon's mobile suits can do and has a chance to plan for them.As for why not nuke it, Zeon were all-in on their plan to force the EF out of the war with the strike on Jaburo. They probably didn't want to divert resources, nor damage something they'd hoped to be able to occupy after.Keep in mind too Zeon is severely limited in manpower and accessible resources compared to the Earth Federation. Supporting a bridgehead from orbit is a mammoth logistical undertaking, the kind of thing that nobody in human history has ever done anything comparable to. There's simply no way that Zeon could keep the same level of intensity of space operations while also facilitating the invasion of Earth.
>>23599696>Zeon crippled the EFSF's offensive capabilities through speed and surprise, that doesn't mean they have the capability to mop up every single space asset in a more protracted fightAre you seriously telling me Zeon could completely destroy 5 Colony Sides, blow up hundreds of Colonies, kill Billions of people, but not have enough power left to take a puny asteroid base?
>>23599701Yes.The One Week Battle was a complete surprise attack on the Earth Federation, with a Space Navy coming out of nowhere, and with chemical WMDs to first clear out Island Iffish to use it as a kinetic WMD to drop onto Jaburo.Of which the fallout caused said billions of casualties, including both Feddies & Zeke armed forces.
>>23599701Yes. If Zeon had a strong chance of winning the war conventionally, they wouldn't have gambled it all on a knockout opening blow.
>>23599701Yes. Speed, suprise, and technological superioritygot them far initially but once the momentum was lost the war became one of attrition where the EFF held the advantage. Operation British was tremendously costly for Zeon and rendered it impossible for them to effectively attack Luna II; while attacking and dropping it on Earth was indeed one of their threats it was a bluff they could not support. In CCA Char managed to perform a colony drop through a combination of popular support (other colonies could not respond against him without rioting or terrorism) and bargaining/lying, e.g. telling the EFF he'd surrender his weapons in exchange for the purchase of Axis, using dummy balloons to trick EFF officials into thinking his fleet was in port while actually performing the drop operation, etc.
>>23597817>>23599298>>23599301I hate all this powerscaling shit that comes up in relation to UC side materialsStop talking about Amuro like hes Goku or something
>>23600167Might as well be.Mind you, a lot of that was shown in the original show.
>>23599182Disrupted supply chains, they likely reasoned they didn't have the capability to hold the ground any longer.
>>23600167Amuro in the Nu could beat Goku
>>23600167You don't get a nickname like Shiroi Akuma for nothing
>>23597773>RX79 ground type is slightly above a GMSlightly above GM ground types, which are built from Gundarium and way above regular GMs.
I don't get where the Amuro hype comes from.I saw the original series, zeta and the cca movie.In none of them I saw Amuro as some kind of god killer like Kira Yamato was in seed.In the original series Amuro was always having a hard time against most of the non grunt enemies."B..but he killed 10 grunts in 5 minutes". Yeah yeah, char could do it too. kamille could do it too. judau could do it too. even fa yuri scored kills against grunts.In zeta he didn't show any impressive skills.In cca he was also meh.In that Cucuruz Doan's Island movie, Amuro mostly jobbed.Even in Gundam Wing, Heero seemed like a better pilot than Amuro.
>>23600923so, when is your eye surgery?
>>23600202>Disrupted supply chains, they likely reasoned they didn't have the capability to hold the ground any longer.What supply chains? North America has its own giant factory. Don't they make Goufs and Doms there? There's nothing to worry about it when it comes to supplies.
>>23599472>>23599503>>23599696>>23599701>>23599990Luna II is massive. Its the real life asteroid Juno, which as can be seen in the image, is roughly the size of Taiwan. Note that A Baoa Qu, Solomon, and Axis are all on there too, near the bottom left. Zeon was stretched thin from Loum and trying to conquer the Earth, I don't think they even had enough ships for an effective blockade
>>23601068Thanks for the info. It's quite interesting and didn't know about it's huge size. However there is no way Luna 2 in the anime is that big. Its looks smaller than Al Boa Que. Maybe about equal to Solomon based on how big the Luna 2 hangar doors are. Plus Char was able to completely covet the surface with a missile bombardment with just 12 ships in CCA. If it were that big, 12 ships couldn't even dream of doing that.
>>23601088It certainly does look small in the animation, although I feel its more an artifact of the low budget of the original show itself. Compare Solomon in Gundam 0079
>>23601097With Solomon in Gundam 0083. Bigger budget means more detailed lights, which makes it look physically larger.
>>23597953Actually, he says the Kerguelen would get shot down by the Gundam's beam weapons. I'm not really sure why he then focuses on the tanks. I don't get it, that line's always bugged me. >>23598271Did you miss the absolute fuckton of planes bombing the shit out of their base? The zaku would get wrecked.
>>23601008Why do you keep bringing the most absolutist assumptions to everything? 'They have a big factory' doesn't mean 'they are entirely self-sufficient'.
>>23601008IIRC, Odessa was a major mining hub. All the factories in the world won't help you if you don't have any raw materials to build shit with.
>>23597732>These suits are vital to this mission, and they lack the firepower of an RX-78-2.Oh, OK.
>>23601105Okay....so how did Jaburo make all those GMs then without controlling Odessa for 95% of the One Year War?
>>23601102I think people perceive the fight a bit differently than the creators intended. Norris goes after threats the the ship first and foremost. He prioritizes the three guntanks because of their long range firepower. But he also slaps the beam rifle out of Karens hands the first chance he gets, lets her live, kills a guntank, then destroys Sanders's cannon. He never bothers to seal the deal on any of the gundams because once they're disarmed, they aren't a threat to the ship directly.
>>23601147South America is about as mine dense as continental Africa, and the Zeekes didn't land there because they assumed the colony drop would destroy it. Jaburo also has a massive underground manufacturing complex that produced everything from tanks to Mobile Suits and fleet scale ship production.
>>23601103>Why do you keep bringing the most absolutist assumptions to everything? 'They have a big factory' doesn't mean 'they are entirely self-sufficient'.Except California Base WAS mass producing mobile suits. Some of best looking mobile suits of the one year war if you ask me.
>>23601161Yes, and that does not contradict them not being fully self-sufficient.
>>23601103No base is truly ever 100% self sufficient. However California Base is probably the most self sufficient base out of all Zeon bases on Earth.They have factories for producing submarines, surface navy ships, and any boat design you could think off. They also have factories for producing their own mobile suits. And they are next to the ocean, so technically they won't ever starve or run out of food or water. In some ways, California Base is more valuable than Odessa.
>>23601168Breaking the siege by making a flotilla to take ten thousand EFF grunts to pee in the ocean right outside California Base's desal and fishing facilities.
>>23601168California Base also has HLV launch and landing facilities. So they aren't even cut off from space.
>>23601148That's a good point, actually. I never thought of that. That's very smart. >>23601147Because Odessa isn't the only mine on Earth. >>23601168The California Base was hot shit, sure, but again, it needs raw materials from somewhere for those factories to matter. I know someone's probably thinking that they could get resources shipped down from space, but that's a really long, expensive, and dangerous trip when Zeon doesn't control space around Earth.
>>23601182HLVs are extremely vulnerable if your enemy is in range either on ground or in space. Better than not having them but if you're getting rolled up your safe HLV route is going to go sooner rather than later.
>>23601148The whole battle makes no sense. I don't think Guntanks can even shoot down air targets so far away. Those shoulder cannons are artillery and meant for shooting ground targets.And what's the point of Norris taking out the beam rifles? They can't reach the space ship. The Federation needed a custom GM sniper with a long ranger beam sniper rifle. And even wasn't enough. The rifle needed a power boost by connecting it to an external generator.
>>23601222>I don't think Guntanks can even shoot down air targets so far awayThey presumably can, since that's what the EFF is staging them there for and that's why Norris is focusing on them as targets.The beam rifle thing is easy, he's just not worried about finishing them off when he's focusing on taking out the guntanks. Disarmed of the beam rifle, their main threat is gone and he can move on.>custom GM sniperThat's just a repainted Ground GM, believe it or not.
>>23598210Fuck yeah Guntank!
>>23601268I don't even remember the original Guntank on White Base ever doing any of that. It could only shoot down nearby enemy targets.
>>23601390There's abit of stock footage in the OG MSG of the Guntank shooting down Dopps with its shoulder cannon
>>23601390>>23601400There's also no reason to assume it's an identical machine, since the whole Operation V concept of 'three complementary platforms' went out the window. The original Guncannon was also shown as being at least not entirely helpless up close, whereas these ones essentially didn't even put up a fight.They're shown being used as fire support units to intercept a launch vehicle and they're treated as a threat to the launch vehicle, so I'm going to go with the show and the implication that this model of Guncannon is a threat to the launch vehicle.
>>23601412>GuncannonImagine I wrote 'guntank' instead and that I'm not a fucking idiot, whoops.
>>23601268There's literally an entire episode of the show that hinges on a gundam using it's beam rifle to make a long range shot.
>>23597732>muh lore muh consistency this shit has ruined sci fi, simply tell a compelling story with clear stakes. I can very easily believe that in a military operation protecting self propelled artillery is important
>>23601400Yeah but those Dopp pilots flew insanely close to White Base when attacking.
>>23601652There's also an episode where the Gundam cuts the warhead off a nuclear missile while in flight. Which honesty, just highlights the problem with the OYW OVAs trying to mil sci-fi up a series that's still fanciful and romanticized at its heart. It's like when people thought the Nolan movies were the peak of Batman.
>>23601412>They're shown being used as fire support units to intercept a launch vehicleThey are shown being using as artillery on ground targets. And when they fire the shoulder cannons at point blank range, the cannons doesn't event penetrate Dom backpack armor. >and they're treated as a threat to the launch vehicle,Well...technically Zeon did. More specially Norris. But the Federation didn't.
>>23601795>fanciful and romanticizedAny non-Tomino /m/ works that are like this?
>>23601805>doesn't event penetrate Dom backpack armor.I headcanon this as a defect shell or wrong type of shell moment
>>23601652>There's literally an entire episode of the show that hinges on a gundam using it's beam rifle to make a long range shot.Yeah and their Gundam sensors can't see that far away.
How come Gundam Thunderbolt did a much better job of showing jungle battles, than all of 08th MS Team did?
>>23601828They had 08th MS Team as reference for what to not do and what to double down on
>>23601828Did the Gundams in 08th MS team even take any damage? It's been years since I watched the anime, but all I remember is the Gundams effortlessly smashing Zakus every episode. I don't even think they took battle damage.
>>23601860Did you watch it with your eyes closed? The main Gundam is literally a field repaired unit.
>>23601860It's really time for you to rewatch it
>>23601865I'm not talking about damage from bosses. Did a Zaku even get any battle damage on the main Gundams?
>>23601860GM Head would like a word.
>>23601860In the gouf fight they took a bit of a beating, but the most major damage taken was from Ez-8 ripping its own arm off for a melee weapon when he forgot he had beam sabers.
>>23601951Come on. We all know Gundams have magic plot armor until the final 2 or 3 episodes of the anime. Or if a boss shows up. The rest of the time, the Gundams are invincible. A mere Zaku could slash Shiro's Gundam cockpit with a heat hawk, but the Axe would magically do nothing and harmlessly bounce off.
>>23602028>Gundams are invincible if you define out all the times they aren't
