How does its compares to previous mass production mobile suits?
>>23777873Jesta and Rezel beats both
I like Messer, it has a rag rag look that fits Mafty.also, its face reminds me of pic related.
>>23777875The Jesta has a higher thrust-mass ratio but it's worse in every other way. Especially against the Type-00 which is legit a brand new MS from scratch, whereas the Jesta is a souped up Jegan. MS Illustrated 2013 even says the Gustav Karl's basic performance is on par with a Gundam-type, but it's technically just a highly advanced 2nd gen MS (movable frame generation).
>>23777873Is better.
>>23777879HF came first so Anno was influenced by the Messer
>>23777885>The Jesta has a higher thrust-mass ratio but it's worse in every other way.Nah. Karl is a big slow chunky boy.
>>23777904different karl
>>23777873Both are huge and probably inherently more expensive and heavy as a result. When I see them I just see the impetus for micro MS designs in the future
>>23777904Nothing slow about GK, especially 00 model.
>>23777873Fodder for Rezels
>>23777912>>23777922fuck you bitch, Jesta is tacticool and kino, better than your fatty shit
>>23777936Dom is a fattyGustav Karl is that big bouncer in front of club, who won't let (You) in
How much better these MSs really are compared to, say, Magnetic Coating Gundam or NT-1?Are they really be so much better than a MS that could keep up with Amuro's piloting?I can understand better armor while keeping maneuverability or higher beam output, but would an average pilot in a Gustav Carl or Masser really be a match to a pilot like Amuro, Char, and Scirocco in a late 1YW MS with a modern beam saber?
>>23777968Gustav Karl is like G-Line.Cool in theory, jobber in practice.Didn't it get trashed by a Dijeh in NT?
>>23777904Unicorn is a parallel universe though. There are zero unicorn MS seen in HF
>>23778107The Gustav Karl’s in the new movie we’re using REZEL beam rifles
>>23778006Your basically asking if a bolt action rifle can beat an automatic rifle.
>>23778132Technically, you can. Most automatic rifles are not even used on automatic most of the time, any way.But what I meant is that by A Baoa Qu some mobile suits are already keeping up with the upper range of human reflexes, so what does later era mobile suits have as a definitive edge? What prevents Amuro piloting Gundam with Magnetic Coating dodging all attacks from a Geara Doga and returning precise fire with a modern beam rifle?
>>23778118Their weapons exist but they suits don't exist. It's a parallel universe
>>23777922>Nothing slow about GKBruh stop trolling. It's so bad. OH you're serious? *Laughs in Dijeh*
The only Gustav that matters.
>>23778006The biggest advantage is the increase in raw speed and improvements in man-machine interface, but roughly speaking there is nothing that prevents you from just upgrading the good old Gundam in similar way, as we see it with the old reliable GM line that was used by PMCs even beyond the Hathaway's Flash.Though it's important to mention that it would only be helpful against general mass-production MS. It wouldn't help you against "cavalry" like Zeta and Gaplant or against one man armies like ZZ and Mk-V.
unicorn is fanfiction
>>23778006>How much better these MSs really are compared to, say, Magnetic Coating Gundam or NT-1? >Are they really be so much better than a MS that could keep up with Amuro's piloting? Try using a standard computer from the 1990s with Windows 95. Now try using a modern computer 30 years later. Pretend your Amuro. That's the difference.It doesn't matter how fast your response time is when your computer responds too slowly to fight modorn suits. Amuro might be a newtype, but he still needs a decent mobile suit to put up a fight. A Gundam NT-1 is way too old and slow. Bare minimum, Amuro would need something from the Zeta Era (late UC 0080s) to beat a Gustav piloted by a grunt. CCA to Unicorn era would be even better. He can make up for being a 1 generation behind by using newtype powers.Although Xi Gundam lacks psycho frame. So Amuro could probably Nu Gundam and use newtype hacks to slap Hathaway around. But that's a special ability reserved for fighting other main characters.
>>23778523>man-machine interfaceThis sounds like the most significant change. Even if the machine itself is fast enough, 360 panoramic screen, linear seat, bio-sensors and the likes making it easier to control and improving situational awareness is going to make a difference.>>23778610I'm not entirely convinced. The machine/computer responded fast enough, War in the Pocket shows Christina saying Alex was too fast and wondering what sort of pilot could control it. Same happens with Dijeh in one of the mangas, with Bosch saying Amuro's Dijeh is too hard to control.If these mobile suits were already so fast good oldtype pilots of the era barely could keep up, making them faster would not help much given the human is the limiting factor.As I said above, improvements on man-machine interface to make complex maneuvers easier to do and peripheral technologies improving situational awareness and safety seems more significant.Oh, also sensors. Better optical sensors, HUD, AR etc is also probably going to be very helpful.
>>23778697>I'm not entirely convinced. The machine/computer responded fast enoughNo. AMURO responded fast. He had precognition and could sense the future. During battle, Amuro would sense the intentions of enemy pilots. Then move the Gundam before the enemy made their attack. This made it seem like Gundam was moving super fast to enemies. For example, by the time a Zeon mobile suit raised it's rifle to fire, Amuro was already dodging away. This was absurd to Zeon pilots.Imagine shooting at the Gundam from a distance while hiding behind cover, but the Gundam suddenly jerks and boosts away even before you fully raised up your rifle. Then your cockpit explodes because you got hit by a beam without realizing. Your last thoughts are "How?!?! The stolen data clearly showed you were outside the Gundam's sensor range!" as you explode. That's what it's like fighting Amuro during the One Year War.Of course this precognition had limits. Amuro struggled against Titan's ace pilots, and struggled against equally powerful Titans suits. Amuro couldn't dominate like before. I suggest you watch Zeta to understand the limits of his abilities.
>>23777936But I like them both :c>>23778519Hathaway 2 gave us the novel Messer, so skinny Karl shouldn't be far behind. Trust the plan.
>>23778874Amuro do that, yes, but to actually take advantage of his "precog", he needs a machine that can respond fast enough, it's not like he has minutes to react, it's seconds. That's why pre-Magnetic Coating Gundam was shorting, Amuro was simply too fast for it.I'm not pulling it out of my ass either, here are some lines taken directly from War in the Pocket, regarding NT-1 Alex:>"So what's your impression of the Alex? How do you like the 360 degree monitor and the magnetic coating?">"It's so fast it's scary. Can anyone really handle something this sensitive in combat?">[...]>"You'd have to be some kind of freak to control this thing."So by late 0079 they already had the technology to make mobile suits so fast the mechanics thought it'd take a superhuman to handle it. Even if you don't consider WitP canon, Amuro 'complained' about Gundam being too slow for him before magnetic coating, and after that he was satisfied.
>>23778697All the stuff Gundam Alex like the mag coating becomes standard in mass produced mobile suits.
>>23778899Sure, cutting-edge technology becoming standard is to be expected. But can an average pilot take advantage of it? If it was already suitable for the best of the best (Amuro, Char) and made a test pilot like Christina say it's too fast, making it faster wouldn't mean much given the pilot would be the limiting factor.Take Monsha from 0083 for example, could he make full use of NT-1? I don't think so. So what's the point of making the mobile suit even faster?
>>23778904>But can an average pilot take advantage of it? They seem to be able to. In Zeta, Amuro had trouble with fighting Titans pilots. He couldn't easily destroy them like he did against Zeon pilots during the OYW. Amuro actually to work for each kill. Same goes for Char too. They both had to put in work for their kills.
>>23778519this is fanart
>>23778923Fair point, really, but I want to point out that Amuro is coming out of a 7 year long house arrest in Zeta (besides, Tomino really didn't want him to steal the show) and later in CCA he's back to curb stomping everyone. Also, for all the flaws of assholes like Bask and Jamaican, the pilots are supposedly above average.Regardless, wouldn't it also make sense that this difference is due to improved controls, not machine spec?
>>23778904What makes you think it was the magnetic coating that made Gundam Alex so hard for Christina to control? It could have been many other things. It was an early version. For all we know, Amuro could have tested it, not liked it, and given harsh feedback to the designers. They designed Alex without input from Amuro.
>>23778305Yes, you can beat an automatic rifle with a bolt action one but you need lots of things going in your favor for it to happen.>>23778305>A Baoa Qu some mobile suits are already keeping up with the upper range of human reflexes, Where they? I don't remember that, but I remember Amuro asking the gundam to keep up with him even with magnetic coating I think. >What prevents Amuro piloting Gundam with Magnetic Coating dodging all attacks from a Geara Doga and returning precise fire with a modern beam rifle?First og gundam probably wouldn't be able to power a modem beam rifle without being modified. Second later MS are better designed and built using knowledge from the OYW war and later wars. Gryps era ms even the pre-war ones are much more efficient than late oyw suits. Hizacks, Galbaldy Betas and GM IIs were good enough to clean up almost any OYW era suit.Gryps era and beyond are much maneuverable and tend to be armored with better versions of gundarium. They would be faster and have easier time dodging and reacting to the old gundams movements.In order for Amuro to beat a Geara Doga in a rx78-2 with magnetic coating the pilots would have to be total noobs and Amuro would have to catch them by compete surprise and use lots ambush tactics in order to win.
>>23778305>What prevents Amuro piloting Gundam with Magnetic Coating dodging all attacks from a Geara Doga and returning precise fire with a modern beam rifle?The magnetic coating improves response time. But the Gundam still has physical design limits. Just because magnetic coating was applied, the thrusters don't suddenly output more raw power, the sensors don't suddenly get longer range, and the beam rifle doesn't suddenly output more power.Think of it this way. Amuro was piloting the Gundam with 100% efficiency. The magnetic coating allowed Amuro to squeeze an extra 20% out of the Gundam. But the Geara Doga is 3000% better in performance than the original Gundam. So it doesn't matter if the Geara Doga pilot doesn't control his suit as efficiently as Amuro. Even if the Geara Doga pilot only controls his suit with 65% efficiency, his combat potential is 1950% better than the Gundam.
>>23778697>>23778896MS tend to be tuned for their pilot. It would be no different than handing someone used to the default sensitivity and handing them a control with sensitivity on max. They would perform worse than default since they can't control it. Same thing if you dropped your average driver who is used to a commuter car and dropped them in an top of line sports car or F1 race car.Christina never had chance to properly practice with the NT-1 before being forced to fight with it. So she would be piloting the NT-1 like what ever ms she had previously used. Which would most definitely have been slower than the NT-1. The inverse would be Origins Amuro piloting a gm fresh off the Jaburo assembly line he wasn't used to it so he performed poorly.
>>23778939>What makes you think it was the magnetic coating that made Gundam Alex so hard for Christina to control?I don't know if it's MC specifically, I just know it made Gundam usable to later OYW Amuro and is one of the main features of NT-1, which made Christina say it's too fast and sensitive to control.>For all we know, Amuro could have tested it, not liked it, and given harsh feedback to the designers. They designed Alex without input from Amuro.Fair enough but that's control problem, not response time problem, which is what I'm arguing.>>23778940>Where they?Pretty sure it did. I don't recall every detail of A Baoa Qu but I do remember Amuro was complaining about Gundam being too slow until it got Magnetic Coating, then I don't remember him complaining all too much. If Gundam with MC was good enough for Amuro, I'm sure it's at least good enough for 99.9% of humanity.However, if you place any trust on games like Ghiren's Greed and the card game, Amuro with NT-1 would have avoided having its face blown up by Zeong and dodge its ambush, so there is margin for improvement.>you need lots of things going in your favor for it to happen>power a modem beam rifle without being modified. >>23778940>thrusters don't suddenly output more raw power, the sensors don't suddenly get longer rangeLater MSs being better than OYW suits regarding armor, sensors, power output etc is something I acknowledged. I'm talking strictly about response time and speed, e.g. dodging.For reference, RX-78 has a generator output of 1.380 kW while Xi has 3.980 kW, grandpa's sensors are good for 5.700 M while Xi is good for 30.000 M. All things being the same, Xi would snipe grandpa with a vaporizing beam before it even knew about it.But if they fight on short range and Grandpa has a UC0105 beam rifle with external power (E-CAP), would Xi be able to dodge way better? Grandpa could already dodge everything thrown at it, including Elmeth.
>>23778305>What prevents Amuro piloting Gundam with Magnetic Coating dodging all attacks from a Geara Doga and returning precise fire with a modern beam rifle?Anon are you delusional? Wtf is Amuro going to do against a suit like this?Amuro in Gundam barely tied against the Zeong.Geymalk is 4 generations newer than the Zeong.And CCA era suits like Geara Doga, while not as flashy, are designed to kill ZZ era suits like Geymalk.Original Gundam doesn't stand a chance.
>>23778961>I'm talking strictly about response time and speed, e.g. dodging. Your whole scenario depends on the enemy just firing a single beam. What is Amuro going to do if the Geara Doga unleashes a barrage of modern missiles at the old Gundam? Then follows up with repeated beam blasts. Do you really expect Amuro to evade all that? Newtype senses or not, Amuro is getting roasted.
>>23778949>Even if the Geara Doga pilot only controls his suit with 65% efficiency, his combat potential is 1950% better than the Gundam.Again, it's better in a lot of way, that's something I never refuted. What I'm arguing it about response time and speed. Amuro was already dodging Gyan's beam saber thrusts like he's Muhammed Ali, Sharia Bull and Lalah's funnels like he's a leaf dancing in air, Char's Gelgoogs automatic beam fire, and Char's Zeong's mega particle beam fingers. Sure, Amuro's NT precog is part of the equation but e only was able to make use of it because Gundam's response time was fast enough (corollary from Amuro suffering from pre-MC Gundam slowness). Would a random pilot in Geara Doga be able to repeat these feats?>>23778955Doesn't that prove that the mobile suits are restricted by its tuning, not hardware?>>23778962As I said above, Amuro is not new to beam showers.Amuro in Gundam barely tied with Zeong piloted by a highly motivated Char, not simply Zeong.Beside, Gundam's armor was already weak enough to Zeong's beams, making it stronger is not going to make it more of a threat. Just like Char could have taken down Gundam with his Zaku if he had a weapon capable of damaging it, I don't see why Gundam couldn't dodge Geymalk's fire like he did so many times before against more dangerous mobile armors.>>23778968Depends on the barrage, doesn't it? I wouldn't expect Amuro to dodge Solar Ray or Colony Laser pointed at him regardless if he's piloting RX-78 or Hi-Nu. But as long as it's something comparable to the cases I mentioned above, yes, I expect Amuro to evade it all because he has done it before.If Geara Doga's 3 times better than Gundam with MC (random number), does that mean Amuro could evade the barrage from 3 Zeongs if he piloted it? I don't think so, at that point the limiting factor is Amuro himself or physics (no space to dodge), not the response time of his mobile suit.
By the way, NT-1 has more rocket thrusters than Xi. LMAO>NT-1: 174.000 kg (max weight: 72.5tons)>Xi: 160.000 kg (max weight: 80 tons)
>>23778986And that’s why miniaturization was a thing later on, in fact it was already proposed years prior to the events of Hathaway, the R-44 guntank may have already been built by then too (most recent source mentions that the one from the F91 movie was first obtained by the collector in UC 107)
>>23778983Anuros abilities only work well when he's fighting mobile suits from the same era/generation. The latest UC engage video showed Amuro in a Custom Dijeh get absolutely stomped by Sazabi. And Sazabi was 2 generations newer than the Dijeh. Amuro was completely overwhelmed and the Sazabi literally ran circles around him.
>>23778926I'd call it a reference art in that particular case as he designed it and it appeared in official media, though he does "fanart" as well.
>>23778992UC Engage is a bit of weird position. I consider it as reliable as the mangas, at best. The specific case you mentioned is credible, at least from my point of view.Rick Dijeh is a Rick Dias is a somewhat silly MS that was adapted to be used on Earth and then adapted again to be used in Space. Meanwhile, Sazabi is one-off custom expensive mobile suit for the leader of Neo Zeon, with Psycho Frame to boot.However, regarding Amuro's ability to fight it, I consider the pilot being Char more significant than Sazabi itself.In CCA Amuro almost killed Gyunei, a capable and above all stable Cyber Newtype, piloting a Jagd Doga, while he himself had only a Re GZ (not the worst MS, but much worse than Jagd).
>>23778999The how do you explain Gundam Evolve where Amuro in Zeta Gundam couldn't defeat the Titans mobile armor? He couldn't even get close and was taken out by a rocket punch, grabbed, and was helpless. That shuts down your entire argument.
>>23778999Here you go, Gyunei is considered as low ability and high stability on the Cyber Newtype chart.
>>23778961>>23778983>I'm talking strictly about response time and speed, e.g. dodging.>Doesn't that prove that the mobile suits are restricted by its tuning, not hardware?A newer mobile suit would have higher performance potential and at the same time would have higher tuning potential that an Rx78-2 wouldn't be able to meet unless you oldsmobiled it which than would make it an rx78-2 at the surface level.The GM III has reinforced knees since the old GM frame can't handle the stress of the upgrades it had received. So the GM III can perform more advance maneuvers that the old gm knees would probably rupture under from the stress.So the Geara Doga has the Hardware + Software + tuning potential advantage while all the RX78-2 has going for it is that Amuro happens to be it's pilot. Training after the OYW also saw a huge improvement as Amuro and other aces exploits were turned into curriculum for the next gen pilots to train on.
>>23778992Most people writing for Gundam nowadays (especially the games, Char always has ridiculously high stats in games) also consider Char to be Amuro's equal, so obviously that would be the result of Dijeh vs Sazabi.
>>23777873Chunky fucks that remind everyone anything can fly with enough raw fuck you levels of thrust.
>>23779085>The GM III has reinforced kneesThey're motor amplifiers. The frame can handle it just fine, if anything it has more to give. It's the motors that can't move the heavier construction of the old-style semi-monocoque and need to be juiced.
>>23777873They're jobbers, just like any grunt MS, so if they're on the screen they're getting bodied. In that aspect, their performance is the same as previous grunts.
>>23779084I wouldn't exactly call Marida stable. You the wrong word and she goes crazy.
>>23778132>Your basically asking if a bolt action rifle can beat an automatic rifle.That's not an accurate comparison. A bullet is a bullet, plenty of bolt actions rifles are still in use world wide and plenty of durka durkas with AKs have been slotted by bolt actions in the 21st century. A better comparison would be something like an F4 Phantom against an F-35. One was state of the art in it's day, but more advanced sensors, fire control, and avionics give the new fighter an edge. >I still think the pace of UC development is silly, there should be Zaku IIs retrofitted with high spec parts like GM IIs and IIIs up to ZZ and beyond.
>>23778006>"Can a tank made in the 1950s defeat modern US Abrams tanks? They are both tanks. They both have treads, a turret, and a gun! Anuro's newtype senses can help him aim better and dodge."This is what it sounds like when you ask this question.
>>23779879Your pic related is ground up new mobile suit with its armor being a throwback/disguise.It's kinda like that one Nemo in Zeta that got disguised as Gelgoog.
>>23779084Good chart, what's the source?Gyune is still a Cyber Newtype and he was piloting Jagd Doga, a high performance MS using Psycho Frame, while Amuro was using a discount Zeta. >>23779486That's more to do with her trauma than anything related to being a Cyber Newtype, no?>>23779085That's a good point. Better controls and frames enabling average pilots to close the gap, assuming the NT is using an older MS.>>23780010Then you didn't understand my question, or what a mobile suit is.
>>23780112>Then you didn't understand my question, or what a mobile suit is.A tank is a pretty good analogy for a giant 75 ton humanoid robot mobile suit.
>>23780112https://gundam-official.com/news/i/news/publications/news_publications_20161027_16702pPuru Files (2016)
>>23780112>That's more to do with her trauma than anything related to being a Cyber Newtype, no?Pretty sure fat bastard isn't the trigger word, so no
>>23780126Behold, a tank.
>>23780267Jus the kind of movement I expect from a sluggish machine.
>>23780279Look at how slow these two are, a Neo Zeon pilot in a Gaza C would easily kill both of them with its superior speed.
>>23780281Amuro has to try so hard in his snail suit, if he had a Hizack he'd be able to cut three funnels with one slash.
>>23780284Early mobile suits were notoriously slow.https://youtu.be/QMcoG4vT0nU?t=122
>>23778874>For example, by the time a Zeon mobile suit raised it's rifle to fire, Amuro was already dodging away. This was absurd to Zeon pilots.By the way, here's the best animation of that.
Perhaps 0079 is overly dramatized and Battle for Earth is the actual canon depiction of mobile suits in combat.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJWV9-TRD1E
>>23780323The 1996 MG kits could not pull off those poses.This was the first white people's Gundam, long before Requiem.
>>23779010Easy. You just disregard Evolve as canon. Same with manga. Only animation is canon and if they job once, they are losers. These are the rules I didn't make them up.
>>23780406>Only animation is canonEvolve is animation though.
>>23780406>>23779010Amuro was winning that battle until a beam attack came from the planet's surface that stopped him from being able to dodge around, so he was just a sitting duck due to being surrounded by continuous beams.
>>23780267Mobile suits are canonically around 70 to 80 tons. There is no better analogy than using a tank.
>>23780406Anime is canon hasn't been a thing in two decades anon. Let it go
>>23780414>Amuro was winning that battleLol. No he wasn't. Amuro was struggling badly and even his partner died. He couldn't protect or help anyone. Amuro was struggling to survive.
>>23780896The yellow literally suicide ran into the main MA. There was nothing Amuro could do. Right after that, Amuro was slicing through all the Hastas/bit suits.https://youtu.be/ogivR0c0pWQ?si=oUidzhncHvEgyRGA&t=581He only gets caught there by its hand afterwards due to the earth side beams surrounding him.
>>23780918Amuro's partner reactor exploded in a nuclear explosion and the mobile armor took it no problem. There was nothing Amuro could do. The mobile armor also could have grabbed Amuro with the hand and crushed him. Amuro was literally at the mobile armors mercy.
>>23780075I'm aware of that, I'm just saying what I said and pic related was the best example. Ship of Theseus argument, but IRL you have the F-15 that's had dozens of iterations from the 70s to the modern F-15EX
>>23780964>Amuro's partner reactor exploded in a nuclear explosionThat's not how it works. Well, sometimes they do say that, even so it's inconsistent, and in this case that clearly wasn't a nuclear explosion.>The mobile armor also could have grabbed Amuro with the hand and crushed him.Is the hand strong enough to do that? It's used to crush the MA itself, but that's with a newtype aura, so physical stats don't matter much there. Either way, my point is that he was only grabbed in the first place due to the beams surrounding him.
>>23781034Early type, I would somewhat get, but late type RF Zaku is definitely not the best example.
>>23781065>in this case that clearly wasn't a nuclear explosion.Based on what? Mobile suits don't gently explode. It looks like a nuclear explosion. Plus the mobile armor is the size of a small mountain.
>>23781065>Is the hand strong enough to do that?We literally saw the hand do that in the video. Watch carefully.
>>23778697Jegan = RX-79 or AlexSinanju = modern suit.Gif = result.The Alex is too old and slow. Deal with it.
>>23777873Gustav Karl is a roided GMMesser is spiritually a Gelgoog
guys could the Red Baron in his D.V Biplane survive a Gulf War era dogfight?I think he has a shot, he can just dodge their vulcan fire and air-to-air missiles.
>>23782233That gelgoog has a feddie face... That's just a face plate fused with the chin. That shit aint a snout
>>23782240Looks more like a snoot in the official artI think the artist just goofed its proportions
>>23782233>>23782251These literally look the same and it's absolutely a snoot
>>23782214>unishit as accurate depiction
