I wish wed go back to designs that didnt pretend they were outside of an anime toy commercial? Seriously why does everything need 100 vents/portholes/ridges and 100 decals of logos/racing stripes/ and signs akin to "CAUTION DO NOT STAND NEAR THRUSTER WHILE GIANT ROBOT IS IN MOTION" these days?Like look at this asshole in pic related. This is not my boy..this is not the 0079 MS I fell in love with yet it dares shares its name.
Shut the fuck up american faggot.
>>23822353get filtered lmao
>>23822361That looks great tho. Thats what I want.
>>23822360Americans love that shit tho
>>23822353Everything you love is the 1970s aesthetic. It's fantastical, bombastic, and stylized. Some people would call it "campy". But modern Gundam UC directors are obsessed with realism. They want everything to be tied to reality with very little room for imagination or fantasy.The funny part is watching modern Gundam directors struggle to pretend (Pic related) is realistic.
>>23822353okay, then go look at 50 year old pictures some more and stfu
>>23822353There's no going back.The reason Gundam is beloved is for its realism, pseudo-realism or not.
>>23822424>The funny part is watching modern Gundam directors struggle to pretend (Pic related) is realistic.Those retcon are easily the best part.
>>23822466
meanwhile what these designers you love so much do when not restricted by money and technology:
>>23822469
>>23822471
>>23822473
>>23822474
>>23822475
>>23822476
>>23822477
>>23822479
>>23822480
>>23822481
>>23822482
>>23822484
>>23822485
>>23822486
>>23822488
>>23822489
>>23822490And that's all from me
>>23822475>2. The core fighter is expensive because it has a learning computer.Uhhh...how about they just don't put a learning computer in it? Problem solved.
>>23822493They say it is an expensive unit, they didn't say the "learning computer" is the main reason.Plus I could imagine it as:>every other systems were engineered to link with the learning computer>removing the learning computer mean wasting all that and building something else instead>removing that waste mean is no different from rebuilding everythingIt's my retcon and I'll die by it
>>23822424But realistic vehicles tend to look closer to 70s or at most IGLOO era UC with greebling minimized since you have to maintain all that shit post-mission. I've noticed the traditional animation medium of older Gundam forced the designers to be conservative with their designs in a way reminiscent of actual engineering, and the end result is that all of the OG suits have distinct, easy-to-read silhouettes.
>>23822424I fucking love the 70s aesthetic in all things despite it being a shit decade.
>>23822466Wrong.
>>23822667Yeah just look how smooth this thing is. It doesnt have a trillion vents
>>23822353That sounds like a you problem, maybe try looking at more mecha anime.
>>23822353It's time you accepted that gundam is a franchise built on "don't you recognize thing!? clap if you do!" and moved on.
>>23822424All of Zeon's early MAs are basically just MotWs so watching people bend themselves into pretzels to try and justify shit like the Zakrello always makes me laugh.
>>23822792Mad this early?
>>23822361Was this supposed to be a troll? Because it's better looking than anything bandai has shat out for the past 25 years.
>>23822696i have a funny experience with this image. I once made an artist friend who was very skilled he really did liked to do mechanical stuff so one day i sent him that image and dude went nuclear telling me that was the shittiest thing ever and that was made by untalented creative deficit faggots. After that rant we barely spoke until one day he called me a borring faggot and blocked me.
>>23822424>>23822353It's not like things even took long to change. Zeta already moved towards much more detailed designs than MSG and it became the design basis of Gundam, not the original series. Now, there was a limit to how much detail they could animate at that point, and you have Tomino in CCA - f91 - Victory going for somewhat simpler designs for ease of animation, but when you look outside of that, you get stuff like Sentinel quickly moving to very detailed designs.
>>23822832When it touches a nerve thats when you know its right.Sounds like he couldn't swallow the pill that hes a hasbeen who just copies does what an AI does. Copy n paste different parts from different vehicles of the military industrial complex onto a "design" and call it his own creation.
>>23822463Bamco is a greedy company right? Isn't it cheaper to produce kits that are less detailed? And approve simpler designs and reject busy ones?Then again I guess in the long run its cheaper to make 50 variants of the Zaku with different assortment of tattoos and piercings than have artists make 50 different designs
>>23822936Gundam blew up merchandising-wise due to MSV and other expanded material. People consuming the "world". So it had to drift towards realism and even Bandai realized that.Note even Gundam's recovery with SEED also came alongside a renewed push for extended content beyond the anime, while its weakest decade sales-wise was the 90s, where there was the strongest disconnect between the anime and Gundam as a media franchise in general, with products at the time not elaborating on the world nearly as much as what UC got back in the 80s and the newer series starting from SEED got.
>>23822945Makes sense.Though SEED being a gen y and z version of UC-OYW, the fact it revived the IP just shows yeah people like simple smooth designs. Heck its the one show that has 50 different gundams. Yet they were simple and boring so can we really not have MSV and streamlined designs at the same time?
>>23822970genuinely deranged take
>>23822973Deranged in what? That SEED wasnt a rehash of the OYW? >spacenoids vs earth federation>giant space laser super weapon>newtypes even having the damn same sound>char clone>big bad gets shot from behind in the last episodeOr do you mean that the designs of Buster,Duel,Forbidden,Calamity etc etc arent simple borderline boring designs. Cause they are.
>>23822696This picture is really retarded.Artist focusing on realism or fantasy exist no matter the era.Hard-SF artist worked based on what they knew at the time.Even that pic within the pic is conceptually feasible, today's project for Air-taxi sometime manage to hide the blade. Thought I could imagine an network of autonomous lifter carrying those pods like air crane.That ringed object down there, is an acceptable design for a rotating space station.Arthur C. Clarke predicted what was almost a smartphone in 1968, the original Discovery spaceship had heat-radiator removed for the movie for artistic reasons, and HAL 9000 could be made today, it would even be just as reliable.>>23822832Your friend sound very touchy and oversensitive, but I can understand how anon's pic is insulting for artists. It's basically just a meme that imply artists don't know what they are drawing for and just do it on a feeling.
>>23822985That was the golden age of sci fi and while some realism was worked in form took over function. Star Wars aesthetic is pretty much the poster child of this. A Giant 4 legged AT-AT that can get its legs tangled wouldnt even be a thought to be entertained by the left panel. Yet its left a bigger mark on sci fi than a forgettable bayformers design.What we have today is the artistic equivalent of architectural brutalism, function over form.You are missing the point completely by making it directed toward the artist and not the philosophy. Its cope for this>>23822931
>>23822936Quite the opposite.>Then again I guess in the long run its cheaper to make 50 variants of the Zaku with different assortment of tattoos and piercings than have artists make 50 different designsExactly.They aren't even the one assembling/painting the model so it already cut 90% of the cost.Plus it's easier to distract from its nature as a toy if the model aim for "gritty realism".Entire limb/body is one smooth surface? Muh toys, even concept cars have access for maintenance.Groove to pretend it's dozen of panels? Now that's a vehicle made to be repaired.
>>23822993>Its cope for [insulting bullshit]If anyone answering uneducated bullshit with more words than it deserve is "touched", my guess is that you are either encouraging obscurantism, or a mid-effort troll.The constructive answer is that both type of artists, of "philosophy" coexist in any era.The golden-age of Sci-fi was not limited to one art style and a long time, and many novelist were forced a very arbitrary form of pseudo-realism filtered by a certain editor John W.Campbell.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctpvd2VvukQPlus it's called a golden-age not because it was realistic or attached to details, but just because it became more than niche literature.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=174-Gch95uY>starwarsWhat? James Cameron is exactly that kind of details focused nerd even when making science-fantasy. All SW space-fighter were made taking inspiration on existing aircraft even if he didn't care about realism for that project.You can't even call anon's "left pic" a search for realism, just like "right pic" could be imagined either as a lazy artist paid to represent a real machine, or a space-opera writer being honest about his understanding of science.>artistic equivalent of architectural brutalismThose words describe a very specific type of design in a specific context, and it was definitely NOT "function over form", kinda of the opposite even.
>>23822424And this is why modern science fiction post Star Wars is shit.
>>23822985>>It's basically just a meme that imply artists don't know what they are drawing for and just do it on a feeling.And what is wrong with that?
>>23823069You are wrong.
>>23823073For you anon, for you. That’s the real failure of Star Wars. It created a standard. Granted, sometimes referred to as “Used Future”, started really with Silent Running, and really, maybe even with 2001, took away wonder from it. That’s why it’s can really be given credit to Dino et al when they worked on this. Zarkov is even credited as being one of the developers fictionally of the Shuttle, but it’s damn neat to see picrels look as sticking with the original instead of running on George’s homage.
>>23822667>and the end result is that all of the OG suits have distinct, easy-to-read silhouettes.Good. That's exactly what Tomino ultimately wanted. He told original mecha designers to do whatever they wanted as long as each shut was distinct enough for a 7 year old child to draw it.
>>23822832Sounds like you deserved that
>>23823084Shit like this still gets made today but you wouldn't know.
>>23823161Not enough
>>23823084That pic Reminds me of when LRH said alien space craft look like DC10s in his writings.
>>23823029Brutalism quite literally is function over form. It arose because Europe bombed its housing to kingdom come and there was a massive post war population that needed simple housing.
>>23823267Shitty writer, save volume, shittier religion, no apologies
>>23823314Idk theres some skill involved in creating such a con. Especially convincing John Travolta to risk his entire career and acting prestige on a shitty movie
>>23823406BE is one of those films so shit it a study of the insanity of either one mind or a collective. Psychlos destruction felt like a temper tantrum
>>23822484>>23822485>the brown paint was really special guiz! It has radar blocking properties and is super stealth!1!!>also only the Acguys that invaded Jaburo had this paint. That's why other Acguys were not stealth in other animes!Really? Are they really doing this? They couldn't leave the Acguy alone or have the Federation just suck at secueity. It's so silly. And what about the BRIGHT RED paint Char used when he infiltrated the Jaburo base with the Acguy team?
I agree with the general sentiment, but I think our thresholds for what is acceptable are different. That Zeong doesn't look too bad to me. But then you got stuff like the Valverave's upgade or GQuuuuuuX and it does start to seem like visual noise for the sake of it.
>>23823596The standard is simple. If a 7 year boy can't draw the general outline of your mecha, then your mecha is too complicated. That's what Tomino said when it came to mecha design.
>>23822353The problem with this re-design is that the design feels like its ashamed of being a Zeong. It doesn't embrace the wacky design language of the original Zeong body.So the designer slapped a bunch "realistic" armor plates and booster rockets to the body.
>>23822424Ironically, something like big zam isn't actually that far off from "realistic", at least compared to humanoid mecha.>legs for landing and anchoring the mech>big fuck off gun dominating the center of the machine>the rest of the armaments dedicated to suppressing smaller things>crewed like a ship, with multiple people on a bridge
>>23822424>>23823681>Ironically, something like big zam isn't actually that far off from "realistic", at least compared to humanoid mecha.Don't forget it's also shielded against beam weapons.You could use it for a ground assault on the moon. Low gravity, 360° attack é defense, big ass main canon if neededno explanation for the flying claws tho
>>23823772>no explanation for the flying claws thoThey provide coverage for the blind spot on the Big Zams underside. The beam cannons can't aim that low.
>>23823798The laser don't point above either and the legs allow to AMBAC.No really, those claws are silly and retconning them would be impressive
>>23823625I kind of get what they were going for with the Thunderbolt "Perfect" Zeong. Unlike the Plamo-Kyoshiro/MSV version which went for a more MS design, they pushed it towards a more MA design. It in many ways is a reference to Gundam Sentinel's [Bst] and Deep Striker configurations of the S Gundam.
>>23822667I mean, tanks do have those visible plates connecting in what's otherwise a straight surface. That's basically the reference point for greebling. You just end up with busier designs for mecha since the tank's silhouette is simpler than a humanoid one.
>>23822694The 70s was a better decade than the 2010s and 2020s.
>>23823625It's effectively just zeong with a bigger skirt and some exaggerated featurez, I'm not seeing the shame here
>>23823084>>23823029>>23822985Man, people in the past had such high hopes placed in us it's not even funny
>>23824903>It's effectively just zeong with a bigger skirt and some exaggerated featurezEffectively sure. Symbolically? Nope.Thematically? Nope.>I'm not seeing the shame hereLook harder
>>23822353Thundernolt Perfect Zeong was such a massive disappointment. It lasted a few chapters in total, destroyed a couple grunts, briefly fought the Psycho Braw Bro, and then ran away and exploded. What a waste.
>>23825013It pretty much just exists as a plot point to deliver Io his co-pilots for the titular Gundam.
>>23823596Why do the little "wings" on the claws look like wadded up napkins?
>>23824960Their wars didn’t help
>>23825309Not that anon but there was a lot of advertisements pushing the Perfect Zeong battle in promo material for Thunderbolt's final arc. I wonder if the author for Thunderbolt purposely gave a middle finger to fans and changed things after seeing the hype and all the ads
>>23824960Its funny cause you'll see comments like>omg if i showed my smartphone with my gen z humor it would mindrape a Victorian child like a Lovecraft monsterWhen really they'd just go>Thsts it? Yeah that seems about right.
The word overdesign doesn't exist in Japanese. You gotta consider the fact that even in 0079 The Rx78 was "busy looking" compared to the typical giant robots of the time.Japan always prioritizes rule of cool over practicality.
>>23826093>omg if i showed my smartphone with my gen z humor it would mindrape a Victorian child like a Lovecraft monster >When really they'd just go >Thsts it? Yeah that seems about right.Maybe not Victorian child, but someone from the late 1800s or early 1900s? Yeah They would probably be very disappointed. They would ask if we've gone to the stars or other planets yet. But be very sad by our answer. Take away smartphones and then Internet, and daily life for human very different compared to the 1930s. We just have more fuel efficient cars and uhhh...better medicine I guess. We replaced radios with TV. That's about it.
>>23822667Couldn't you have chosen a tank that actually entered service in the '70s?
>>23824045>The laser don't point above either and the legs allow to AMBAC. Big zam doesn't have Ambac
>>23829534Given how big and heavy the legs are, they'd have enough mass to be used for AMBAC.
>>23831746You need both arms and legs for Ambac
>>23823596I like the base vulvarape, the claws and clown shoes look like shit and ruin what's otherwise an okay design if you don't mind the neon shit.
>>23832575If you can do ambac with more than 4 limbs(binders) you can do it with less. It will just be obviously less effective.
>>23832782You can't do Ambac with binders. You need actually limbs. Arms and legs.
>>23832798Are you retarded? The entire point of binders is to add more limbs for ambac. Why in the flying fuck do you think only four limbed shapes have physics apply to them? Because it's based on real principles and I can assure you that whether you have one limb or twenty they apply all the same.
>>23832819Wing binders are for extra thrust and thrust vectoring. Not Ambac.
>>23832826They are explicitly for ambac and I'm not sure why you think otherwise. A huge part of zeta era design was adding as many wobbly bits to suits as possible in order to use them for ambac, almost as much as it was the era of everything must transform.
>>23832839Zeta suits were all about transforming and redirecting thrust.
>>23832819Sorry but the big Zam's helmet wings dont give it Ambac. That's just absurd. If bit zam had some giant arms to counter balance the legs, then you would be correct.
>>23832575>>23832798Original guy you answered here, (another anon took after me)All you need is to be able to move even one limb/binder with enough Degree of Freedom. Ideally of course you'd have 360° and the ability to move mass closer/further away from your center of mass.>>23832826If you are talking about the usual extra tank+rocket they add for final battle, as long as you can move them independently in a coordinated fashion it would also serve for AMBAC.That said, if the binder start to outmass the mecha and have lesser range of motion, it might impede a full 360°.At some point you become more of a turret atop a propulsion stack.Those Dra-C forms do follow function.https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/MS-21C_Dra-C>>23833019The legs are enough to match the minimal requirement. It will be crap at it, yes, but it's still more than enough to quickly reorient the body (and its 360° laser) 45° up or down.Actually since if has knee, it could technically rotate fully 360° up/down.If it spread its legs forward/backward, rotate them both in a spread left/right position, they'll be moving enough mass to have the main body rotate a bit.>to counter balance the legsSilly anon, counter-balance is what you do to PREVENT induced rotation.AMBAC is about moving your body limbs so the BODY is forced into a rotation you want.
>>23822353>because its a toy commercial it needs to be simpleAs someone who occasionally has to clean the lab or kitchen spaces i cook or clean in, i cant tell you how retarded these designs incan you imagine cleaning every recess in those atrocious thunderbolt designs? fuck that
>>23827782>The word overdesign doesn't exist in Japanesedont i fucking know itthe outside should always be a shell, and for practicality purposes, be alot easier to service than the innards, since the job is to protect the horribly complex innards>Japan always prioritizes rule of cool over practicalityin theoryin practice imo the simpler, sleeker designs are better and in my opinion, more iconic, i think its a crime that>people prefer destroy unicorn over unicorn unicornVotoms just being an armored bucket is greatRk Savages (Fullmetal panic) are amazingly elegant designs because they look sleek but also bulky where it counts (protecting the pilot)I hate the idea that extra edges and lines with no rhyme or reason is considered "cooler" than older designs which at their peak utilized arches, clean lines, and more readable geoemetries
>>23833147>Original guy you answered here, (another anon took after me) >All you need is to be able to move even one limb/binder with enough Degree of Freedom. Ideally of course you'd have 360° and the ability to move mass closer/further away from your center of mass. I own the gunpla model. The Big Zam's legs do NOT move that way the articulation is limited. Similarly, the real life big was extremely limited. It could walk, boost, and stomp. But the leg movements were so stiff and no where near what a basic Zaku 1 could do.
>>23833360nigga usually the plastic models are made to be cheap and have shit articulation compared to what it's supposed to be able to do in the animationif we took a bunch of gunpla for exact articulation and posability, half of them couldn't even hold their bazookas properly or take out their own melee weapons
>>23833403There's no way big zam has Ambac. You have to be able to swing your limbs. Big zam can only walk and stomp.
>>23822985>This picture is really retarded.>Artist focusing on realism or fantasy exist no matter the era.that's the fucking point you drooling retard it's a fucking inversion making fun of the original image that said the fucking oppositefucking newfags
>>23833360And I've seen plastic toys with wheels that didn't turn.Not much of an argument given all the time you need to ignore the animation to make the toys articulation (even if nowadays they make it as a toy before making its glorified advertisement).>>23833509>You have to be able to swing your limbs.Even the most basic ability to perform limbed locomotion and step over obstacle is enough to perform AMBAC.I hope you aren't under the misunderstanding that the speed at which the limbs move matter. There's no added kinetic energy from moving faster.The only argument we can give you is that it will be slow at it, but given its shown battlefield use, just throwing it in the direction of the enemy fleet with an escort of MS, using legs to give it's 180° lasers a 360° coverage without using propellant is believable enough for Gundam.
>>23833560>mock japanese design>"western design" is from Japan
>>23834114low iq post
>>23834094The big zam never used Ambac. it used boosters and thrusters. Zeong doesn't have Ambac either. It's missing legs.
>>23833147Gundam seems to imply that the AMBAC systems used in Zeon suits (and later other mobile suits) are significantly different than just ordinary AMBAC. I headcanon the term as "Combat AMBAC". I mean let's be honest here. Zakus are literally weaving through bullets and missiles using nothing but agility. That's not ordinary. That has to be something special that Zeon developed and later the Federation copied.
>>23833560is the joke that left is actually western and right japanese?
>>23834132None of the Mobile Suit supposedly using AMBAC actually move in a manner that imply it.Because it would look like rather silly contortions.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mro8HqJMv3cThe point remain that the Big Zam would be capable of using it simply from having limbs.>ZeongStill capable of it, as long as arms are massive enough.However, even with legs it is superfluous because it fights using self-propelled INCOM, so it needs to be able to move out of the way more than it need to rotate.>>23834174>ordinary AMBAC>ordinaryThere's only one kind, it's plain physic. The only variable you can play on is how much fuel you are still ok to use in order to move faster.The controls and algorithms would certainly be a closely guarded secret, but again, it's plain physics, by UC tech level both side would have their AI instantly deduce the most perfect movements combination for a given design.Also, everything AMBAC is about can be achieved by having plain rotating parts. So the Federation's Balls could have achieved 0G superiority simply from having fast rotating parts with thrusters & weapons or even flywheels.
>>23833147Your picture seems to imply that 3 limbs is the minimum required to do AMBAC
>>23833560The pic from >>23822696 is retarded because it implies a now/back then for something timeless.Your own pic is only troll material or at best a joke over these troll comparisons.
>>23822696It's funny because this picture is backwards. The reality is that person on the right designs something cool looking, but uses science to justify his choices afterwards. >"The Enteprise has nacelle tubes because they create radiation and need to be kept away from the ship"
>>23834357>Still capable of it, as long as arms are massive enough. Not complete Ambac. Arms only give 180 degree Ambac. Not 360. Thats what legs are for.
>>23834443There was also a design rule for all the early designs that you needed the engines in pairs and you probably don't want to be standing between them when they're active, so they all try to have clear line of sight between them. They hadn't nailed down the specifics on what warp cores and engines were all about but they had a certain basic vision informing it going in. No rocket engines or exhaust was probably the biggest rule initially.Hell even the uniform colours were inspired by carrier flight decks, colour-coding people so you could more easily approximate how many of who are doing what.
>>23834848>No rocket engines or exhaust was probably the biggest rule initially. This is probably a good rule because it forces designers to come up with new ideas. The moment you allow rocket exhaust is the moment the designers start putting it on everything.
>>23822696Anyone who puts Shinkawa in the left category doesn't know what they are talking about.
>>23834950Yeah, the entire reason was wanting to make it clear that whatever propulsion system it used was way, way ahead of anything real-world.Naturally I can't fucking find it now but a lot of early depictions of the Enterprise fucked up and gave it engine exhaust anyway. The one I was looking for also seemed to imply that they'd filled the shuttle bay with rockets too.
>>23834443>The reality is that person on the right designs something cool looking, but uses science to justify his choices afterwards. Literally how 99% of anything in Gundam works. The guys who made Gundam Century knew giant robots were stupid but the fun part was trying to figure out what kind of science they might have in a world where they actually exist. They regretted it later though when Gundam nerds somehow thought this stuff was actually real and would legitimately argue whether a fictional robot from a children's cartoon had a made-up technology or not.> Kawamori: It's fascinating to see giant bipedal robots, which aren't even remotely realistic as weapons, fighting battles reminiscent of the Sengoku period, using tactics older than World War I. If you don't use the word "realistic," the show's appeal is overwhelming. Something went wrong somewhere, and a certain percentage of mecha fans were fooled into thinking it was real.
>>23834401Old better
>>23834848Speaking of propulsion, it's a rather credible idea to spread them apart to avoid a single point failure if something explode. You'll have to reorient what's left toward the center of mass, but it's still easier to recover from if those are also your main source of energy.>>23834990Artistic choices or not, the rules Star Trek used to fake future technologies led to surprisingly logical choice.They faked doors opening automatically, you can smirk at how modern smartphones now have more functions than their gimmick and the sleek design also went on to inspire real design.
>>23822487>>23822486>>23822485>>23822484>>23822482>>23822480>>23822479Very glad to see this about the Acguy.
>>23834958>Anyone who puts Shinkawa in the left category doesn't know what they are talking about.Why not? He's the very definition of an artist caring a lot about details his works.It's not like modern tech don't have design that also seek to be aesthetically appealing, I won't be surprised if someday >>23835109>interviewSource? It smells made-up
>>23835752Later in the same Jhonny Ridden manga they show it in its full glory, like a chubby mecha ninja.ARK performance are really good when it comes to mechanical design.
>>23834848>you probably don't want to be standing between them when they're active, so they all try to have clear line of sight between themclose but not quite, roddenberry insisted from an aesthetic design that nacelles need to be visible from the front, and the nacelles just need to have partial line-of-sight. there's plenty of ships where the nacelles are pretty damn close to the hull or at least where the crew would be working (e.g., shuttles)https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/design.htmIIRC it was someone else who said that the nacelles also need to be located on struts and mostly away from the rest of the ship (maybe jefferies?) but I can't remember who and I sure as hell can't find anything about it right now
>>23834675>Not complete Ambac. Arms only give 180 degree Ambac. Not 360. Thats what legs are for.That's not how Ambac work. You'll have 360° as long as you have enough DoF which is the case for both.
>>23835783No. Because and elbow and shoulder joints only bend in one direction. Unlike your photo which has limbs bending in both directions. If you try to to Ambac like that then there's a chance you can get stuck in an uncontrollable 360 degree spin. And you cant compensate because your joints only bend in one direction.
>>23835811nigga that's like saying you can hide from a zaku's gun because the elbow and shoulder joints only bend in one direction
>>23835775Yeah I'm probably confusing the explicit rules with the logic that Jefferies incorporated to inform his design.And of course by the TNG era designs you had things getting pretty experimental anyway.>>23835744Funny thing about the doors, by TNG they tried actually automating them. Turns out that a motion sensor can't read the script and it's super distracting having them opening and closing on their own whenever anybody walks by, and they have no sense of dramatic timing either. Manually operated doors meant they opened precisely when the director wanted them to, and for as long as the director wanted.Apparently it took a lot of practice to get actors walking towards them with the confidence they'd actually open.
>>23835814>nigga that's like saying you can hide from a zaku's gun because the elbow and shoulder joints only bend in one directionThat's exactly what the Federation did.
>>23834315Yes, same as the other image that is the exact same theme.
>>23835811>If you try to to Ambac like that then there's a chance you can get stuck in an uncontrollable 360 degree spin.That's not how BASIC PHYSIC work.In a vacuum, momentum is a closed system. No propellant is ejected, no mass is lost. Any rotation you start, you can stop by doing the same movements in reverse.You are making an error so basic I'm wondering if you are of good faith, trolling, or a child who shouldn't be here.
>>23836006>Tries to do a horizontal spin with only 2 arms and no legs. >Bumps into wall. >Now stuck in vertical spin. >Can't counter rotate because no legs>Endless spin>Black out.Gg
>>23835775>>23835852The rules exist because Trek designers constantly try to make everything smooth and streamlined like a jet fighter. If the rules didn't exist, then the designers would make everything too streamlined. I think the designers forget that this is space and aerodynamics don't apply. A Borg Cube doesn't care about looking smooth. Even with the rules the designers pushed the limits. Enterprise E and Voyager looked way too smooth and elongated.
>>23836338There is not a single worthwhile piece of Star Trek media made after the 90s
It definitely goes overboard. At what point does this stop becoming the Sazabi as seen in CCA?Part of engineering is also streamlining and simplifying things to viability. This just looks like an engineering nightmare to the point where regular Sazabi seems more realistic to what a military would use.
>>23836379Beyond was surprisingly decent, if the Kelvin timeline films had been like it from the start I think people would've had a lot less complaints. Same goes for Strange New Worlds and the seemingly winding down current TV productions.But anon also didn't mention anything that falls outside the 90's anyway.
>>23836379Enterprise was pretty good in the last 2 seasons. They stopped trying to experiment with radical ideas and just realized:>"Oh we should just do a prequel show about the early days of humanity and the formation of the Federation. Let's focus on that idea." So they stopped doing weird time travel arcs and actually gave us backstory on the Vulcans, Klingons, etc. If the show continued, the Romulan Empire were going to the next big villain and all the species coming together to resist them.
>>23837126Here's the smart thing Paramount should have done with Kelvin movies.1. Acknowledge this is alternate universe Star Trek (they quietly did) and ask people to be open to it. 2. The first Kelvin movie should have led to a prestige TV show. A High quality show like Game of Thrones. Have 1 season in-between each new Kelvin movie. So the audience can appreciate and grow with the charactersNot just make continuous movies with huge time gaps between each movie. This was Paramount's mistake.
>>23835744Eh, I actually think TOS-style tricorders are more practical for exploration than the glass screen craze that TNG predicted. Try manipulating a tablet in the freezing cold versus tactile buttons.
>>23836014You are still wrong in a way you could literally learn from a swivel chair, but involving bump/friction with extra object is out of the scope of Ambac.
>>23837675>but involving bump/friction with extra object is out of the scope of AmbacOut of the scope? If an enemy smacks you with a shield, it will send you flying. How is that out of the scope? If you hit debris why flying around then that also counts too
>>23837430For the most part TNG Tricorders still had buttons. They didn't invent a touchscreen tricorder until one of the late TNG movies.
>>23837724Its hilarious because now we are going back to partial physical buttons with devices. Full touchscreen controls proved to be too troublesome to use.- If you are driving, then physical buttons are superior because you don't need to look down. - If you are flying a plane the same idea applies. You need buttons for crucial moments to make no mistakes. You don't want your finger to slip and hit the wrong button.- If you are doing research, physical buttons are better. Try using an Ipad with gloves on in near freezing cold. Not happening. So future "tricoders" may actually come full circle and have a small touch screen with physical buttons.
>>23837715the moment you are launched away from the impact, you are no longer in contact with said object and you can correct your orientation and postureno shit you can't correct yourself with AMBAC while you're still in contact with wall/object, you're basically rolling/rubbing on a surface that prevents free movement
>>23837777This still doesn't prove Big Zam has Ambac.
>>23837795The main issue here is whether the Big Zam legs have the range of motion required for AMBAC.
>>23822353Of all the things Anaheim Electronics could have done, this seems like a lazy upgrade. Just 3 giant fuel tanks added in place of legs? No creativity.
>>23837715It's out of scope because AMBAC is about what you can do when nothing is hitting you.If we consider the starting situation: you rotating wildly, trying to stop it, you can do so as long as you have the minimal amount of DoF to move your mass around.The Zeong with only its arms could stop its rotation in every axis, if slowly.The Big Zam with its very big legs could stops its rotation in every axis, if slowly.>>23837795The Big Zam can do Ambac because anything with limbs articulated enough can do so. It's just control software.>>23838939I actually considered less that this pic when I brought it up
>>23839231You are stretching AMBAC too far.Yes. Any moving mass can affect rotation in space. That is basic physics. So in a very loose sense, even Big Zam could change its spin if it moved its legs enough.But AMBAC in Gundam is not just that. It is a SPECIFIC design idea. It is for humanoid mobile suits. It uses articulated limbs for fast and controlled attitude adjustment. It is meant to reduce reliance on thrusters.Zeong is at least close to that idea. Its arms are large. They are independently controlled. They can help with orientation. So you can argue it has limited AMBAC behavior. It still is not a full mobile suit system though.Big Zam is different. Its legs are not built for fine control. They are large structural parts. They are not meant for quick inertial adjustments. The machine relies on thrusters and verniers for movement.If you define AMBAC as “any object that moves mass and affects rotation,” then everything qualifies. That definition is too broad. It breaks the meaning of the term.So the simple breakdown is this. Zeong is borderline AMBAC-like. Big Zam is not really in that category at all.
>AMBACMeanwhile Xi Gundam dodges missiles and lasers with anti-gravity planking and doesn't even look like it's trying.
>>23839953that's because AMBAC doesn't work in atmosphere
>>23825312They're heat sinks that the machine disposes like ammunition shells when it fires off one of its super attacks.I think the shape is meant to invoke this kind of pattern.
>>23839953>and doesn't even look like it's trying.It doesn't even look like it's moving either. The cgi model is stiff as a board .
>>23839817What? The only one stretching AMBAC into some kind of super-tech restricted to humanoid is you.Literally: "Active Mass Balance Auto-Control"You could do AMBAC with a single limb so long as it is capable of 3DoF and stretching the center of mass away.Logically it would exist as a default software installed in any space vehicle if only for stability.And if we are honest, none of the anthropoid mecha are even optimized for AMBAC, and massive units profit more of it following the square-cube law.>It is for humanoid mobile suits.It's not and you know it.https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/AMBAC_Space_PodIF not for the rule of cool the ideal AMBAC design would be a ball with mast it can rotate 360° in 3 direction 90° apart.That and transforming units, ofc.>They are independently controlled.So are any mech limbs, the entire concept relies on AUTOMATION doing the fuel-saving movement for you.>ZeongAMBAC = Yesno "limited"It doesn't matter if it's a crazy prototype that fight by detaching said heavy gauntlets into funnels and thus profit little of it.>Big ZamIts legs are HUGE and LONG, actually better for AMBAC than most humanoids design.But wait there's more!If the 'hips' even rotate 360° without caring about look or forward direction, it would be tremendously better.>quick inertial adjustmentsThey. Are. LegsThat's the most basic requirement for limbed locomotion.>fine controlNo even necessary, as long as you save 80% of propellant, it's ok to finish the job with RCS or just using the turret.Again its legs&knee are even (surprisingly yes) well shaped to rotate its 360° defense system.So stop trying to deny obvious use for AMBAC just because you can't accept it's not a mystical ability that justify humanoid robots.>>23839953>Xi GundamMinovsky magic, don't get us started on Psychoframe and Phoenix reactionless propulsion.>>23839982>AMBAC doesn't work in atmosphereIt does, it's just not as useful necessary.
>>23841202You need to stop quoting Gundam wiki like it's the ultimate source. The wiki is known to have many errors and the admins jealously guard articles from being edited.
>>23841366You need to stop avoiding addressing the talking points like a little bitch
>>23841202"AMBAC system" ===///does not equal///=== normal AMBAC One is designed for agility in combat.Zeong does not have AMBAC. The Perfect Zeong lore specifically says that the legs + arms finally give the suit an AMBAC system, and greatly a increases agility and maneuverability. Far above the Zeong.By that same logic, Big Zam does not have an AMBAC system.
>>23841512betcha the perfect zeong's legs make it slower than the legless zeong so any theoretical increase in mobility is canceled out by the extra weight that makes it slower to move
>>23841535Maybe. But the Zeong could just detach it's arms and those arms are much faster in top speed than the main body.
>>23841668I wonder if the wires carry electricity
>>23841535I think you are looking at it backwards. Perfect Zeong with legs being able to maintain the same ridiculous speed as the smaller Zeong is a very scary sight.
>>23841828It makes me sad we didn't see wacky designs like Zeong anymore. I miss things like the detaching head and rocket finger beams.
>>23841828eh, we all know psycho gundam is more advanced and even slower
>>23822353Are you one of those faggots from /toy/ that always bitched about transformers and "Muh toon accuracy"?
>>23841845I still don't understand how Psycho Gundam can have all those beams but never hit anything. Big Zam, Zeong, and Neue Ziel were able to fight entire Federation fleets. But Psycho Gundam loses and never hits anything. It's just a light show.
>>23841512>normal AMBACThere's only one AMBAC system.You have a control software that let you save on propellant.It cost you nothing to install, probably generated automatically by a script.Not using it when your machine has good enough limbs would in fact be irresponsible.So of course you use it.>Perfect Zeong loreOh so it's only ok if you are the one bringing up lore?There are actual reasons to treat the Z and PZ as distinct units, none in pretending there's distinct concept of using limbs to orient yourself and save on propellant.Zeong is capable of AMBAC.Perfect Zeong is also capable of AMBAC.Big Zam is capable of AMBAC.Again: When you look at actual design, the Big Zam would actually make better use of it than many of those cool looking humanoid robot.
>>23842314Probably just trying to one up those without the budget to make stuff explode.I like the Universal Century but honestly most of it is still made as glorified gunpla ads.
>>23841828The Zeong main weapon are its wire-guided bits attacking in every direction from multiple direction, especially with a newtype who don't need sensors to detect targets.So the suit itself is better focusing on dodging fast than turning or walking around under gravity which wouldn't be useful for its flying hands.Can almost hear the technician saying it doesn't need the legs they are just for show
>>23842602>Oh so it's only ok if you are the one bringing up lore? >There are actual reasons to treat the Z and PZ as distinct units, none in pretending there's distinct concept of using limbs to orient yourself and save on propellant. Can you calm down and speak English. The whole point of Perfect Zeong is that is gets AMBAC and extra maneuverability that Zeong doesn't have.
>>23842602There's a ton of thruster usage in that video. A bunch of fuel used just to turn around. I'm not seeing Ambac used at all
>>23842982I don't think Ambac is meant to completely replace thruster usage to turn around, just reduce it/do it slightly faster. It's meant to explain why mobile suits' limbs are seen moving around in a scene like that, rather than just standing perfectly still and getting moved around by the thrusters.
>>23842982Hence the filename, muh ambacGundam remain a work of fiction, rule of cool take over realism.None of the MS actually move their limbs in a way that would provide fuel-less rotation because it would look silly.It's mostly an extra justification to sell the idea of space robot.A more realistic space fighter would look like >>23833147.
>>23842898>can't argue against any of the points>deflect with personal attackAgain the Zeong is fully capable of AMBAC.It doesn't even save fuel to shoot 360° like other MS or the Big Zam who use AMBAC for that, and the PZ lose in acceleration since it is heavier without extra thrusters. Not the first time overdesign stuff and downgrade their own design.
>>23842982>>23843477>>23843012FYI AMBAC was only ever a flimsy justification for why 0079 mobile suits in space can theoretically orient itself around without needing maneuvering thrusters all over the body, it's not like they animated any part of 0079 to ever show this principle in action properly anyway. also, AMBAC was never said to be superior to a thruster system either, it just has the advantage of not needing propellant to accomplish the same resultover time the specs and lore of UC imply that while AMBAC is fine for older MS or used as a backup if maneuvering thrusters get damaged or run out of propellant or used at the same time as thrusters, the overall pursuit of performance in UC just ends up turning into "add more maneuvering thrusters" instead of "make AMBAC more effective by adding more limbs, control surfaces, binders, or flywheels".In the case of AU some machines also have really fancy wings that essentially act like UC's binder tech but on steroids, but even though you might hear about Wing Zero Custom being "AMBAC god" it's just bird wing flapping in space as opposed to actual movement of a certain part of the body's mass that would cause it to move in a specific way. Like, the damn thing flaps like there's air in space to give it lift, it isn't moving the wings or swinging the legs or arms in any actual way to induce motion in a certain direction.>it's just a chinese childrens' cartoon, you're silly for pointing this outno shit, the whole point is that it's just an-after-the-fact excuse that is kinda clever as an idea but never actually implemented meaningfully and none of the machines are designed to make use of it properly or are even seen using it. anyone thinking this hard about it and pointing to plastic models as proof or making claims for or against is kinda pointlesslike when was the last time you saw a zaku rotating limbs like that?
>>23843506I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure AMBAC was Gundam Century stuff trying to retrofit on a reason that they're humanoid. It wasn't ever part of the actual production or creative side.
>>23843481>Zeong is fully capable of AMBAC. It can't. Not according to Perfect Zeong lore. We are not sure why this upsets you so much.
>>23843481>>23842898>>23843745The joke was that Char was known for kicking stuff.
>>23843767Perfect Zeong kicking the Gundam...would destroy the Gundam... lmao
>>23843481>Again the Zeong is fully capable of AMBAC. >>23842602>Big Zam is capable of AMBAC. You are wrong, but that's okay.
>>23843506>it's not like they animated any part of 0079 to ever show this principle in action properly anyway. They did.
>>23843870That's a 3DCG OVA made like 25 years after 0079 but I'll allow the misunderstanding since I didn't clarify the OG series and not every depiction of the 0079 timeline
>>23844020It looks like they are using the machine gun for extra leverage to spin
>>23843481The big zam might have Ambac due to the giant legs but the Zeong doesn't seem to have it. The arms are too small
>>23844443>The big zam might have Ambac due to the giant legs but the Zeong doesn't seem to have it. The arms are too smallwtf are you talking about? if anything the arms are too big
>>23843506>FYI"no shit", you've basically repeated what I've said to fanboys who exaggerate its importance.While the concept is legit for any space-turret, they are not wasting time actually portraying AMBAC in action, just like they aren't mentioning heat radiators or how pilot controls MS so finely using only 2 sticks and pedals.It would be more credible for them to have legless MS dedicated to space battle, protecting the legged MS dedicated to colony/surface assault, instead of making new MS for job that could have used the same design.>AMBAC was never said to be superior to a thruster system either, it just has the advantage of not needing propellant to accomplish the same resultIf you accomplish the same result, without needing propellant, I'm seeing only gain here, even the mass of articulation is worth itOf course some design need it more than others. If you are fighting mostly with funnels or can shoot 360° without turning around anyway, >AU wing"no shit" again. If you extend the discussion to anime that didn't even pretend to care about being military unit we are not done.Thx for the webm tho, it could come handy.>>23843570Retcon is like a UC sport.You might as well search if the concept was mentioned in Tomino original script, or in his novel.>>23844443The Zeong arms turn at 180°, can fold on top of the hands being massive. That's only a problem when the hands are detached in drone mode>>23843745All PZ data say "improved AMBAC ability", QED: the Zeong already had AMBAC.You won't find otherwise. You seem to be the one upset by the Zeong being logically capable of AMBAC, as true as 1+1=2.
>>23843776>>23843767Char needed the buff
>>23844924>QED: the Zeong already had AMBAC. Incorrect logic. The Zeong data books say nothing about AMBAC. Zero mentions. Nothing.Perfect Zeong lore mentions AMBAC. Therefore PZ adds AMBAC with the legs.If you want to prove me wrong then show me a data book mentioning Zeong AMBAC.
>>23844924>how pilot controls MS so finely using only 2 sticks and pedals. This is has been touched upon briefly a few times. Pre-programmed macros for most major movements. Pilot only needs to press a button. The mobile suit has drivers installed that tell it how to pick up and handle most weapons. For very specific and detailed movements, the pilot can enter manual mode. I think it's similar to using a gaming mouse and increasing dpi for certain micro movements where you need to be absolutely precise. More advanced models probably have contextual movements too depending on the software installed. If the mobile suit detects something like incoming funnels, then a new option of selectable movements appear. Like raising the shield, using arms to protect the cockpit, etc. >It would be more credible for them to have legless MS dedicated to space battleIt's called a Guntank or a Loto.>If you accomplish the same result, without needing propellant, I'm seeing only gain hereIt depends on the speed of the action and how long it takes. Doing Ambac during a combat situation is different than doing Ambac in a casual situation. Spinning around in 1 second to shoot an enemy is a lot different than taking 10 seconds to spin around slowly. It's a matter of life and death. >The Zeong arms turn at 180°The Zeong arm joint has a 90° range of motion. From 180° degrees (fully extended) to 90° degrees (bent elbow). The Zeong arm can't rotate either. It locks into a specific position. >All PZ data say "improved AMBAC ability",Going from no Ambac ability to good Ambac is still an improvement. This doesn't necessarily prove Zeong has Ambac. Combat Ambac is different than just an astronaut jiggling his body slowly to rotate in 10 to 20 seconds. Zakus can do it near instantly.
>>23844924>>23845095>More advanced models probably have contextual movements too depending on the software installed. If the mobile suit detects something like incoming funnels, then a new option of selectable movements appear. Like raising the shield, using arms to protect the cockpit, etc. Just adding on to this, I remember that the Zaku 2 and Gundam databooks mention why the Gundam was so dangerous. Zakus have a limited amount of movement macros the Zakus could store. Zakus could store only 1 to 2 dozen Pre-programmed macros to use during battle. And pilots would "customize" those macros before battle by choosing which they wanted before battle. That's why each Zaku moved slightly differently depending on the pilot. Meanwhile the Gundam Learning Computer could store hundreds of movements AND could create new movement macros on the fly. Usually by analyzing combat data from enemies, or by fusion the movements of 2 different macros. That's what made the Gundam so groundbreaking. The Federation invested so much resources into the Gundam Learning computer. Zaku computers we're basically cavemen in comparison to the sophistication of the Gundam computer.
>>23822353So everything below the waist is made by Anaheim Electronics? No wonder it looks so cheap. The top half looks like it was made with a specific design in mind. The bottom half looks like they gave up and slapped some fuel tanks on it and called it a day.
>>23845095>macrosBoy, I remember the era when that term implied a super-intelligent system.Now I realize just how fucking far we are. You'd need straight up AI that understand context, intent, and do all the sword fighting / shielding itself.And it would still require the control interface to convey more information than whatever this stick does. We are talking at least 3D movements, 3D rotation, in a way that doesn't get false signal when the pilot is under acceleration.We are better handwaving "thought reading suits, sticks are for less important functions".>It's called a Guntank or a Loto.Read, anon, read. We were obviously talking legless MS as in OPTIMIZED FOR SPACE BATTLE and never meant to walk on surface.>Doing AmbacLet's be honest: none of the MS are actually designed to maximize AMBAC by any metric. Minimizing the time it takes to actually point a gun at a target, maximizing number of thrusters reoriented, minimizing dead mass...IMO a true space-MS would probably be all ball joint Ball, turret weapon, flywheel fuel-tank with thrusters.And if you use Funnel/360° laser you don't really need to rotate around, only dodge.>Zeong articulationWhat kind of cheap Chinese counterfeit model did you buy?Are we doing the Big Zam all over again?>Perfect ZeongMean the Zeong's AMBAC capability was improvedThere's nothing to negotiate here, if it has good enough limbs = can do AMBAC>>23845027RX-78 Gundam isn't said to be capable of AMBAC because anything with enough limbs can by default.It's not a magic ability limited to "humanoid", give up bro.https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/MSN-02_Perfect_Zeong>As the legs increase the Zeong's mass, in "Perfect" form it would actually have somewhat reduced acceleration, though improved AMBAC capability would make it more agile.Don't argue against the wiki if you can't provide anything that explicitly say the Zeong can't do AMBAC.Even if you did, it would logically be bullshit.
>>23822463plausibility > realism
>>23845320>you can't provide anything that explicitly say the Zeong can't do AMBACThat's not how logic works. You don't prove a negative. You prove a positive. .It only goes one way.Otherwise someone could say:>"Well...there's nothing in the lore that says the Zeong DOESN'T have a beer dispensor in the cockpit! There's so much room." It's your job to prove it.
>>23845386see >>23839817, someone already lost the fight for you, he just doesn't want to acknowledge that any physical movement is enough to count as ambac because literally any physical movement with mass counts because even the fucking thin-ass backpack binders on zeta era-MS are said to work for AMBAC
>>23845939Thats not how Gundam works. just because something exist in real life does not mean it exist in GundamDrones exist in real life.But we do not see them in the one year war.You need to prove Zeong has it. You cannot assume.That is not logical.
>>23842314Psycho Gundam was effectively an MS-shaped star cruiser, and gained all the weaknesses of one when going up against true mobile suits, including Minovsky particles screwing up its accuracy.
>>23842314Zeta fucked up by making the conflict smaller and getting rid of the mooks for these super weapons to destroy. Also this is probably a newtype moment. You can clearly see beams hit Kamille and glance off. The entire scene is Rosamia having newtype psychosis and Kamille kinda being dragged into it
>>23842982AMBAC is just a stupid acronym for "I can reorient myself by shifting my body." You can see the GM Cannon is in fact shifting its body around in conjunction with the thrusters. Turning at the waist would be considered AMBAC. Well, I guess technically AMBAC is the computerized control system that automates those kind of movements, rather than the actual movement itself. But you get the point.
>>23846402The Psycho Gundam Mk II proves to be just as fast as the Zeta in space. It's easily able to tail the Zeta however it maneuvers except getting into tight spaces. You're really underestimating how agile it is for its size. Ships can't do that. And it's focused beam cannon is literally able to make Axis shake even into the residential areas which is deeper inside. That's just short of the Nahel Argama's Hyper Mega Cannon feat-wise. It's a monster that get the short end of the narrative stick
>>23846402>Psycho Gundam was effectively an MS-shaped star cruiser, and gained all the weaknesses of one when going up against true mobile suits, including Minovsky particles screwing up its accuracy.This is probably the best explanation I've ever seen that explains the horrible aim. My one minor issue is that you would think the designers would realize this flaw during testing.
>>23846438>This is probably the best explanation I've ever seen that explains the horrible aimreally I thought it was because most of the time they were piloted by people who were having psychotic episodes almost every time they got in the cockpit, and most of their weapons are designed to be scattering or diffusion-type barrage beams. I mean they could have just stood still and lined up shots properly with the one or two standard beam cannons that they did possess but it seems like they were never taught to do that
>>23845386>>23846364AMBAC was created for space vehicle with sufficiently sophisticated limbs,It applies by default without needing to be listed as a feature as demonstrated by every source,Zeong match the requirement to use AMBAC,Therefore Zeong can use AMBAC,Perfect logic.
>>23847128>It applies by default without needing to be listed as a featureYour headcanon is not evidence.
>>23847151Basic physics are his evidence.
>>23847168"Basic physics" clearly doesn't apply here since we have 60 ft tall giant robot death machines that can walk on Earth yet not immediately sink deep into the ground or destroy everything they stand on. Assumptions do not work. Provide evidence or keep quiet.
>>23847180wait why are you assuming it doesn't have it then?
>>23822696That image is really fucking funny to me, on top of what all other anons said, because it implies Vanquish of all things is part of the mega realistic modern sci-fi vibe.The game where you do ninja somersaults in slow-mo and beat up giant tanks with your bare power-armored hands.
>>23822696Why there are people who get mad at this? The picture is funny.>>23822667There's a lot of wrong with a design if there isn't the post-production, logistics, maintenance, ergonomics, external module greeble to it.The bigger the unit, the less greeble it has, proportionally.
>>23843870IGLOO being the supreme entry as usual
>>23822667Abrams-X is a concept demo not a real thing in use anywhere, meanwhile in real world the things are covered in bits and pieces!
>>23822667He's not talking about greebling vs no greebling. He's talking about aesthetics and art style. Zeon is a spacenoid civilization that developed their own design style without influence from Earth Federation. It's why you have crazy designs like Big Zam, Braw Bro, Ad Zam, Elmeth, etc. You see all these wacky but fun designs in the original shows. It's part of Zeon and spacenoid heritage.But what does modern Gundam do? Uhhhh...Gundams fighting Gundams...and some more Gundams show up. Maybe add some angel wings made of energy or something feminine like. Make the high heels even bigger. Also maybe a non-Gundam suit shows up, but the only thing thats different about the suit is the mono-eye. The design isn't distinctive anymore. If you swapped the mono-eye for 2 regular eyes and painted the suit light blue, suddenly the suit is a "XYZ123 Federation custom mobile suit". Where the modern version of the Big Zam? Where is the modern version of Zakrello? Why do we always keep making memes and going back to a show that's 40 years old at this point? Is there nothing memorable about designs from modern Gundam?
>>23847536>Zeon is a spacenoid civilization that developed their own design style without influence from Earth Federation. It's why you have crazy designs like Big Zam, Braw Bro, Ad Zam, Elmeth, etc. You see all these wacky but fun designs in the original shows. It's part of Zeon and spacenoid heritage. People also seem to forget that the GM is a poor man's copy of the Zaku and other Zeon mobile suits. The Federation doesn't really like mobile suits. They only made the GM because they were desperate not to lose the war. If it were up to the Federation, they would prefer to build lots of big spaceships with many guns and missiles.
>>2384753600 (admittedly more first season than second) and Age are that. Like, even newer Gundam post mid-2010s has just caught the same disease as IP everywhere so it's inward looking and overwhelming just about being Gundam, which is how you get to toilet water like G-Quacks which has nothing of it's own to say other than wanting you to basedface at Thing From Gundam you recognize
>>23847194
>>23847561>People also seem to forget that the GM is a poor man's copy of the ZakuThat's just plain wrong, the GM is a downscaled Gundam. Its almost as capable as it, has a reactor strong enough to field beam weapons, and is reliable and cheap enough to mass-produce. It completely outshined most of Zeon's MS arsenal (especially the Zakus) until the Gelgoog, and even then, it still lost for being deployed too late into the war.
>>23847565>which is how you get to toilet water like G-QuacksThe show didn't even commit to anything. >It's a show about illegal underground mobile suit fights>No wait it's a coming of age show about a girl growing up in a UC space colony>Actually its a show about a mysterious boy with newtype powers>Wait it's a show about alternative UC where Zeon won or tied the One Year War>No it's actually about the mystery of Char and where he teleported to>Actually is about Lalah>What if we add even more mystery girls? >No it's actually alternate about dimensions and multiverse>Char's Counterattack music plays even though the original Gundam shows up??? Whoever wrote this show needs to pick one and stick with it. No wonder the Japanese have forgotten this anime just 1 year later. It's dead and forgotten.
>>238475711. The entire idea of a mobile suit was something the Federation resisted until they were on the verge of losing the war. >the GM is a downscaled Gundam2. Not really. The Gundam was never going to be mass produced. It was too expensive and a resource hog. It's better to say that the Gundam was an upgraded Zaku with beam weapons. After all, the Federation used captured Zakus and copied it's technology to help build the Gundam.
>>23847635>After all, the Federation used captured Zakus and copied it's technology to help build the Gundam.Well the Feddies did use captured Zakus to make the Zanny, but iirc the Gundam was a clean sheet design that wasn't directly related to this
>>23847635>>23847571> It completely outshined most of Zeon's MS arsenal (especially the Zakus) until the Gelgoog, and even then, it still lost for being deployed too late into the war.I still don't understand why they couldn't give the Zaku or Dom a beam rifle. They had thousands of Zakus and Doms already made. Jus make an add-on for them. I mean come on. You can give a tiny CORE FIGHTER ... TWO beam weapons but you can't give a huge Zaku a beam rifle? Not even a beam pistol ? UC technology enrages me so much.
>>23847635I'm not denying that the EFF shat the bed hard in taking so long to develop its own mobile suits, only stating that the GM is much better than a lot of Zeon's MS arsenal.>It's better to say that the Gundam was an upgraded Zaku with beam weapons.Not really, no. Sure, the Feddies had based the production principles off of Zeon, and the Zanny was built off of stolen Zakus, but the Project V suits are otherwise original. Also, do note that the aforementioned Zanny isn't part of the V Project.
>>23847786>core booster shoots beamsYeah I don't really have an excuse for this one.
>>23847787Don't forget that Project V suits were also built around a combined arms concept of entirely distinct chassis for close, mid and long range combat at first. Only later did they reorient the program to a CQB-first suit that was then modified for other roles.At most, captured Zakus and those remanufactured into Zannys would've served as learning tools. They're a chance to test doctrine, train pilots, learn why Zeon made the design choices they did and if there's any that stick out as ones to repeat or avoid.The wildly different design language is supposed to be a hint about the lack of lineage, which is in turn why designs like the Hizack deliberately mix the two.
>>23847796>>23847786The Core Fighter doesn't have beam weapons, the Core Booster addon does (that said it's still powered bow the Core Fighter generator which is what powers the Gundam?) But that aside the thing that grinds my gears is that you have bits later on which have beam weapons, but Zakus & Doms couldn't be retrofitted with them. Of course, most of those small bits other than the Elmeth's weren't around until 0088 so that's like a decade late for the OYW>>23847824>Don't forget that Project V suits were also built around a combined arms concept of entirely distinct chassis for close, mid and long range combat at first.nta, but what also irks me is that the Gundam has all the toyific G-Fighter stuff, but why couldn't they use the Guncannon or Guntank for that? Imagine the Guntank torso on the G-fighter in space, instead of a stupid tank floating in space
>>23847151>warmachine created with limb so it can do AMBAC>headcanonSo we are in the phase where you just spout low-effort bullshit hoping we give up? You won't save face like that anon.>>23847566You are the one who fail to prove the Zeong isn't capable of AMBAC. Just as anon failed with the Big Zam.
>>23847180>yet not immediately sink deep into the groundIt shows you never did the math on that one and just repeat troll talk from real robot thread.Your Zaku 2 could weight 200 tons it would do no more than leave a hefty footprint.The only reason wheeled/tracked vehicle can't afford to "sink" a few centimeter more, is because wheels/tracks can't casually climb their way out with multiple meters of clearance.
>>23847786>>23847796See >>23822476 >>23822477
>>23847966>Imagine the Guntank torso on the G-fighter in space
Guntank + Zeongthe tracks could still work as flywheels for AMBAC purpose while acting as a tiny second layer of shieldingLet's call it the G-EARTH! The ultimate weapon to defend the Earth Federation.
>>23847786>I still don't understand why they couldn't give the Zaku or Dom a beam rifle.they already did a bunch of timesdom originally shot a thickass beam from its chest that got lorenerfed into a reusable flashbangrick dom had optional beam bazookaact zaku had next-generation beam rifle that the titans adopted for the hizack and marasaihigh mobility zaku series had one or two final models with prototype beam gunsquad-armed monkey zaku could quadruple wield gelgoog beam rifles>but these are all rare or prototype weaponsyes because the zaku was too old and weak to power ANY beam weapons without major modifications, and the dom was developed and put into production before the gundam showed up and MS beam weapons became desirable, so the gelgoog became the project intended to adopt beam weapons as standard without conventional weapons as a backup (it could just reuse zaku and dom weapons if it got desperate)in the end, the feds couldn't equip each and every GM with a beam gun either, a lot of them ended up armed with machine guns and bazookas anyway>You can give a tiny CORE FIGHTER ... TWO beam weaponsit's also not mass produced.. it's another expensive-ass prototype like the Gundam itself. The Jet Core Booster version that DOES get produced omits the beam weapons and probably has a far weaker power system since that one isn't expected to power a MS.
>>23848593>Your Zaku 2 could weight 200 tons it would do no more than leave a hefty footprint. You clearly have no idea what you are talking. Read more about tank weight, tank tracks, and weight distribution. There's a reason why weight is so important. It will sink into the ground. Roads are not built to handle most tanks let alone giant robots
>>23848619>yes because the zaku was too old and weak to power ANY beam weapons without major modificationsIf you can make a tiny bit or funnel fire beams, then you can do the same for a Zaku.
>>23848971If by "sink into the ground" you mean leave a big mark, sure, It will break the fuck out of many roads.But it's a childish exaggeration you shouldn't take seriouslyhttps://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/crane-machine-rental-services-26316991573.htmlTracks are less about spreading mass and more so they can climb/crush things without getting stuck. The weight do matter but because of the logistic, we are talking of a SF setting where making VTOL fliers carrying 50tons isn't a problem. When fitting into a tunnel no longer matter, a lot of things cease to matter.
>>23849016You didn't listen to anything that was just said. Literal infrastructure cannot handle tanks driving across them. Bridges collapse. Road break apart. They sink into the ground. Many things happen. This why weight is so important.Go read about WW2 and tanks getting so heavy they sink into the ground and mud. It's also why modern tanks are so focused on dropping weight. Like the new Abrams M1E3 tank dropping 5 to 8 tons to get lighter. >CranesThese so not drive around. Most cranes are towed or transported to construction sites by other transport vehicles. Then setup on location. The tracks are only for basic movement in the job area. Cranes with treads aren't running around like a mobile suit does.
>>23849007Not really. Bits were wired to the MS/MA and received power from the suit/armor's reactor. Funnels came later when the E-Cap technology used by the Gundam, GM and other Project V units became more widespread.
>>23849075Did you forget about the Elmeth?
I remember the Dom had a beam bazooka. Why didn't they just mass produce that and give it to Zaku pilots? They may not be able to be front line fighters but they could be secondary fire support helping Gelgoogs and Doms.
>>23849083>I remember the Dom had a beam bazooka. Why didn't they just mass produce that and give it to Zaku pilots?iirc they tended to explode>>23849075agreed>>23849080Not sure what the exact scaling is, but aren't an Elmeth's bits about the size of a Zaku's torso?
>>23849083>I remember the Dom had a beam bazooka. Why didn't they just mass produce thatWhy didn't they mass produce shields for the Dom? Why does Zeon hate using shields? Would have saved a ton of pilot lives .
>>23823283>brutalism is function over formThat absolutely not what brutalism was about. It was about removing nostalgic ornamention for the sake of ornamentation and letting the raw materials of the building act as a more "honest" decoration. It was intensely interested in decorative buildings where function followed form. That's how completely ridiculous and borderline unusable brutalist masterpieces like the Geisel Library in pic rel were designed. While some brutalist architects focused on practicality, that wasn't a quality totally independent of whether it was brutalist or not.
>>23850683low ceilings make you go coo coo, i'd imagine half of the insane posters itt were raised in a home with a low ceiling
>>23850683brutalism is baller af I unironically love commie block buildings
>>23822463yet they refuse to give us a grunt unit simulator
>>23850523Their suits did have shields though; the shoulder shield on the Zakus ended up evolving into extra armor on Zeon MS's arms.Making a big physical shield for the suit to carry when you could integrate the protection into its existing plating would be silly. Who would be silly enough to do that?
I am gonna ask here since this seems a bit of UC tech autist thread again. Honestly, I can buy into UC's suspension of belief that 18m tall mobile suits can move and need ambac. Even late UC miniaturization magic stuff. I do. AMBAC, transformable suits to get in-atmo flight and the works.But then there's this shit in picrel. Sure it might look cool, but it's so backwards. You're strapping 3 to 4 times the size and weight just to give it proto-minovsky flight to an MS in side. I seriously don't understand why wouldn't they just make an MA with half the size and much much less volume? I am having trouble understanding how adding so much shit wouldn't negate the lift/thrust that it gains. It's ridiculous. At least with a complete minovsky drive/flight I can try and believe into the magic glowy i-field panels. Can somebody please try and convince me even with in-universe explanation how they thought it's a viable idea? Is it not trying to fly while strapping 4 concrete buildings to yourself?
>>23851231the side that keeps winning, apparently
>>23851238Alyzeus does not have a minovsky flight device. it is also not intended to be as compact as possible. it's more of a proof of concept and aerodynamic testing model using as many pre-existing off-the-shelf parts as possible. everything is arranged in a way so that in theory it should handle like the penelope will end up, because this thing existed before the Penelope and is sort of like a custom trainer unit so the pilot can get used to flying the penelope since crashing that thing would be expensive.If you want it to be more compact, then that's literally the newer Penelope and then the Xi models that came out after Alyzeus. The chart's not perfectly scaled but it should be close enough, maybe off by a slight bit since it was made in a rush.
>>23851238Alyzeus is to the Penelope what the Narrative was to the Nu - it's a proof of concept and a trainer, never meant to be an efficient or viable unit that would ever be sent into the field to take part in actual action, but forced into it by circumstances where it was the only viable counter they had available to them
>>23851264>>23851473After all that the Federation must have been pissed when Xi Gundam showed up and it was basically the perfected version of what they tried to order from Anaheim in the first place.
>>23851183>yet they refuse to give us a grunt unit simulatorDon't be silly, the market for grunt MS is eve, bigger than the "main mech". Most games I know let you pilot the grunt, you just also have the few super units.What is near impossible to find is a game with only grunts.
>>23851238>TX-ff104 Alyzeus>with in-universe explanation how they thought it's a viable idea?>"The TX-ff104 Alyzeus is a mobile suit hastily developed for Lane Aim as a trainer for RX-104FF Penelope's high‑speed Flight Form"As one of the autist around, we are reaching far into glorified gunpla ads with theses.But if I have to try:Basically the usual gundam + an autonomous flight packOne that don't trap the MS inside as cargo, don't make it just a MS standing atop a lifter.So you have a MS as light/agile as the usual gundam, but capable of docking with something that make it very fast in atmosphere.>RX-105 ΞMiniaturize & integrate the flight pack into the MS, without losing the ability. Better than transforming or combining.Also all gundam are supposed to be prototypes, to test shit out, before mass productionI can imagine it:>war>need a MS for all your grunts>make a crazy prototype and give it to the kid that might have god-like precognition>god-like kid solo entire army>wonder if the kid even needed a special MS for that>oh shit>now the brass tell you to mass produce it as it is>grunt can barely pilot it
>>23851633It's just a case of "prototype" being misused. They're actually testbeds or research vehicles. Actual prototypes are usually called "early production models" or something along the lines in Gundam. Like the early production GMs, which were noted for being unreliable and unstable because they were still working out the design and production. Or the GM Early Type from 08th MS team, which is literally a pre-production GM made for testing in space. They tacked on the C-Type connection later with 0083 to make it semi-distinguished as a variant.
>>23851633The thing is with the battleship I can try and convince myself it's mostly hollow with big minovsky lift engines or whatever. The Alyzeus is tight and solid for no good reason, even if it's patchwork for training/proof-of-concept, it's still trying to fly with like 5 buildings on you, when you consider you can strap the funnels onto a smaller fighter, isn't it?>but muh ambacCorrect but they aren't fighting these in space. A Zeta Plus or Delta Plus with those same funnel/missile pods would have similar perfomance instead of making a fortress fly and job?
>>23851639To be fair Gundam's hardly the first time fiction's done this but you're right. Macross is much better about this kind of stuff, I think my favourite details in the VF design lineage are stuff like how the in-service VF-22 is different enough from the YF-21 to need a new type designation and how the YF-24 was a massive innovator that made the -25 and -31 possible, but also in its own right a steaming heap of shit that never made it past testing and we never see in the flesh.The poor old VF-17 being in service forever with block upgrades is great too, even if it probably wasn't the original intention.
>>23851639The Alyzeus really is the definition of a test bed.Now the Penelope and the Xi look distinct model with the usual "super unit" finish. They are supposed to be early prototype, but actually have superior performances.>>23851640That's exaggerating A LOT, it's a pure combat MS, it's by nature reduced to the minimum, most the added mass is extra thrusters.A battleship carry megatons of mass for long operation, for maintenance...etc. THe cube laws means that even if the proportion were the same it would be far heavier and slower.Now, why not make a pure MA? They already have those, bigger & less maneuverable. One can only imagine that even if they did, not limiting the maneuver would require to have plenty of limb with thruster anyway.>but muh ambacI don't get why you bring this up again since you pointed out yourself they are meant specifically for air-combat.In atmosphere you don't need to save on fuel since you can pump/use the atmosphere, so AMBAC become at best just a mean to redirect thruster, then the setting keep finding reasons where you end up needing the legs & arms to kick and stuff.>Zeta Plus>Delta PlusOne can only imagine that making transforming MS involve internal sacrifice. They move differently and adding tons of funnels/pods would get in the way of the transformation.Frankly with this setting, it's like the slightest concept deserve full budget.It's as if someone saw the F35, wondered if a VTOL stealth fighter with 2 engines would be better, got the budget for it. Then turn out it was only a test bed to make a version with a GAU-8.
>>23851621>Don't be silly, the market for grunt MS is eve, bigger than the "main mech"Nah, the money makers are the super special hero suits like the Nus and the Freedoms and the Aerials. Even when it comes to the grunt suits, yeah Bandai throws them a bone sometimes but its the rival customs that get all the love like the Chars or the Psycho Zakus. It's only the "muh grunt suits" crowd on here or on le reddit who actually thinks they're on the same level of popularity as the main suits, in reality general audiences don't want nameless losers in boring jobber mechs and Bandai knows it.
>>23852228zeon hero units are almost all just customized grunt types and it puts them way above the uberwunderwaffen gundams in my eyes
>>23851640>>but muh ambac >Correct but they aren't fighting these in space. A Zeta Plus or Delta Plus with those same funnel/missile pods would have similar perfomance instead of mThe Minovsky Flight engines give the suit ridiculous gravity defying ability. This suit can dodge at ridiculous angles and pull off weird turns that a Zeta Plus or Delta Plus simply can't do. One minute Xi Gundams moves like a jet plane, but in a split second it switches to moving like a helicopter with hovering ability. Just look at how Xi Gundam dodges Penelopes beams in the first fightml. It literally dodges to the side and then hovers AROUND the beam. Like a bee hovering around a flower.
>>23852284The fight felt very Macross to me, both the very aviation-inspired choreography and missile use and the rapid switching between mobile suit and more fighter like movement.
>>23852284You can argue how effectively the CG is portraying it, but you can see what they're going for with this clip:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqR3Zx3KPwYou can see how the Alyzeus is fighting gravity, sluggish, staggered and barely staying balanced, while the Xi is just effortlessly circling it without even to touch the ground at all
>>23852284>>23852302The Xi does thrust vectoring on screen in 2nd movie right?
>>23852284>>23852291>>23852302Xi Gundam is insane in the second film. Outruns missiles by just floating faster and dodges through beams like they're nothing.Both movies also do a good job showing that Xi and Penelope are the only suits that can "fly" and the Gustav and Messer are just "jumping" and struggling to stay in the air without their sleds.
>>23852483>The Xi does thrust vectoring on screen in 2nd movie right?Xi does it in the first movie too. But I'm not even sure you can call it thrust vectoring. What is it called when you point your anti-gravity engine in different directions and float around beams? Gravity vectoring? Minovsky Flight vectoring? Who knows.
>>23852228Never cared to check the sales, maybe the master grade ball is a fluke, but some are definitely more popular than the special gumdum snowflake.At best you consider they are all so customized like >>23852272 say, they count as Zeon's wunderwaffe snowflake of the week despite shown as grunt.
