>people complain that they never accepted the olive branch of friendship>but the writers intentionally characterized them as being unrelentingly evil So whos fault is it? The fandoms hopes and expectations being too high or the writers for actually giving the audience villains who dont fall into the trap of morally grey or redemption arc?
>>43227952Sex with Chrysalis
>>43227952The writers. Because even if the villains were truly irredeemable, the heroes should have tried harder to have them see the light, even if it ended up being in vain.
>>43227952>>people complain that they never accepted the olive branch of friendshipBut they literally did. What they wanted was to dominate Equestria and the ponies.
>>43227989Thats retarded. If someone you meet or know derives pleasure from harming others and has done so for years or is a sociopathic, power hungry monster they don’t deserve sympathy. Almost all MLP antagonists fit that description.
>>43227952Chrysalis never should've been paired with them because the changedling shit never should've happened in the first place. They don't have a queen anymore, they're going to go fucking extinct because they wanted to look a little fruity and have an aspie virgin for a king.
>>43228040I agree. But that doesn't mean the characters should see things the way we do.
>>43227952>effortful writing is a trapCome on now. I like unredeemable saturday morning cartoon villains as much as the next guy, but are you really going to pretend this dramatic convention makes any actual sense?
>>43228040>power hungry monster they don’t deserve sympathySpoken like a true modern man. But...
>>43227952You just wanted an excuse to post that image don't you? Cause no one cares for season 9
>>43228120Fucking kek of an edit
>>43228120>"I choose DEATH!">flies at mach 10 and rips your head off before you can even react to it >"Princess Celestia you are avenged." >looks back at all the other stunned /mlp/ bronies>"You are all next..."
>>43227952In fiction, you can express a metaphysical idea as a person. "The ocean" can bitch slap you and the sky can hurl lightning bolts and take the form of a beautiful soaring bird and rape your wife. A fictional character can start from the metephysical idea and then the character can be defined as an attempted expression of that idea. A character can be irredeemably evil. On earth, events come first. You observe events which have occurred in an order and reach a conclusion. You collect evidences that a person is evil, or that any other fact is true.So, when you read fiction, while it can contain a character who is intended as a representative of evil, the reader must still line up a series of events, and/or statements, which indicate that the character is representative of evil, and of irredeemable evil, and what that means, and to what degree. It is not enough that an author intends for a character to be representative of a concept. It must be communicated to the audience that the character represents the concept. A case has to be made in the text.So, lets assume that the characters are, intentionally, representative of evil which cannot be redeemed. I suggest we also offer the same credit to friendship, that it is a simplistic representative of good which is in deed capable of redemption as a shallow reading of the show suggests. There is then an apparent contradiction, where the bell episode appears to suggest that the characters contain friendship, where friendship is the force which redeems, and this must be resolved.As we are assuming author intent, we must then assume that the bell episode is not intended to show that the mean 3 are redeemable. As it still features a very long setup specifically designed to push the characters towards friendship, and the intent cannot be to show that they are redeemable, the bell episode must be intended, specifically to show that they are not redeemable. As irredeemably and the spark of friendship are the same, we must then assume that the episode is specifically intended to show that the spark of friendship does not exist within them. Thus, the setup is intended to push them into being friends, and fail. Thus, while the facts about the characters are exactly as they appear, these facts to not constitute friendship as it is defined by the show.
>>43228210The characters hang out, like each other more than others at least, and cooperate well enough to turn their alliance into greater power than they can wield individually. Considering how much tension there is among the main characters sometimes, these three aren't, according to these standards, that different. There is exactly one relevant difference between the mean 3 and the main 6 within the context of the bell episode. The mean 3, despite having the good feeling emotions inside them, verbally express disgust with the friendship within themselves. This disgust, this self image which they are protecting which is in opposition to the friendship within them, must then BE a lack of "friendship" in terms of the metaphysical force of good in the show. This means there are two "friendships", which are different. There is "being a friend" and "having a need of friends" which is the normal version of being a friend. There is then, also, the separate metaphysical aspect of "friendship", which requires, specifically, that you are willing to advocate verbally and directly on it's behalf. According to this, a "friend" who is not willing to espouse friendship, does not have friendship. And the next thing the mean 3 do is publicly propagandize against the wider cultural practice of being friendly and tolerant across racial divides. The very next thing they do after the episode where I suggest the author intended to show that they are not friends due to refusing to speak for friendship, is speak against the hierarchy of friendship. This means that, according to the show, refusing to speak in favor of order and the cultural narrative which holds people together makes one irredeemable.
>>43227952If I learned anything about hollywoke by now its that its never the person who did it's fault
>>43228040>If someone you meet or know derives pleasure from harming others and has done so for years or is a sociopathic, power hungry monster they don’t deserve sympathyCool it with the misogyny pal
>>43228254Fucking kek
>>43227952The writers. Absolutely despise retards taking everything in the show at face value and as a singular "canon" despite contradictions.>>432280401. "Irredeemable" villains were "reformed", including the primordial spirit of chaos, Discord.2. Little to no effort was spent actually trying to convince the villains, not as much as has been afforded to other villains.This is a double standard, and the ending was severely unjust. Had most villains throughout the show never been "reformed", way less people would be complaining about the ending, and pretending otherwise is delusion.
>>43228341>"Irredeemable" villains were "reformed", including the primordial spirit of chaos, Discord.must play Scorpan's advocate here. Discord was by far the easiest one to redime.He is the living embodiment of Chaos, and chaos itself is not necessarely a bad and evil thing (especially in Buddism and asian spiritualism. Even in his first introduction he wasn't actively killing ponies and causing direct suffering to anypony but the mane 6 (and by proxy Celestia) , and that only due to them being the sole ponies able to seal him again.The guy was pretty much dicking around with his weird powers and drinking chocolate milk directly from cotton candy clouds.more of a chaotic trouble maker rathen than an actual evil and malicious entity like the others.the others, if give chances (and rating), would've killed anypony in front of them even just to kill boredom or flexing their powers
>>43228165now i wanna see picrel but with mlp
>>43228040but enough about Rainbow "brick in yer sandwich" Dash
>>43228050>they're going to go fucking extinctbasedtotal changeling death
>>43227952Not canon. Same for the gay bugs.Mom isn't a villain, she just wanted to feed the hive.>>43229901Up yours pal.
>>43228427This downplays a lot of his malice. He wasn't just some guy accidentally causing trouble in ancient times. He ruled Equestria as a mad tyrant and his subjects were miserable. The dude was chuckling maniacly throughout his debut, and could've discorded the m6 immediately in the same way he did Fluttershy, but he always took pleasure in emotionally tormenting his victims first. Post redemption, he enjoyed vine raping the town before backstabbing Fluttershy in the cruelest way imaginable, "Enjoy your dirt sandwiches. I imagine they'll be your last decent meal for quite some time." If Tirek has murderous intent, then Discord is as guilty as he when he handed the world over to him. Suffering was always part of his original definition of fun, and because of that I believe Discord, before his third chance, would murder any pony for no reason beyond causing random chaos for amusement.
>>43230234None of that is malice.>malice>1: desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another>2: intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuseFirst, the legal definition (2.)Nothing you do is illegal if you're a tyrant by force, so none of that qualifies. If you count assault, then basically every enemy showed that kind of malice. If you simply mean that he did crimes while knowing they were crimes, that's arguable, because he has no reason to know about or care about what is or is not legal in pony society. However, he definitely did the crimes and not by accident, so technically he has malice in the legal sense, I think. It simply isn't what we were talking about.>normal definition (1.)>suffering was always part of his original definition of funSays who? Why?Your examples:>miserable subjects>he chuckled a bunch>NOT efficiently mind-controlling the m6>vines>betray fluttershy>"dirt sandwich">subjectsHe's a neglectful narcissistic hedonist without a concept for thinking ahead unless he's being directly threatened and a horridly flawed understanding of other people. Suffering under his rule is the default. Thousands would die simply because he wouldn't read the paperwork and may or may not bother creating a creature to automatically sign it. We don't really know why he beat celestia and luna's ass the first time, but they probably told him to do something, like put down the community center and un-discord a mayor, which is basically the same thing as the government picking a fight with him, at which point we would absolutely destroy the government and become the leader for long enough for the sisters to go get the elements.None of that means he has any malice at all.> vines>Discord: I'm reformed. Don't you remember? Why don't you ask your zebra friend?>Discord: Oh, well, how silly of me to assume that you would think that. All you did was choose to keep your precious princess self out of harm's way while your friends thrust themselves right into it. He takes three actions in the episode. He directs twilight towards zacora, who was very helpful. He convinces twilight to return to the forest, which was required to solve the problem. He admits, when nobody asked, that he had planted the plundervines 1000 years ago while he was being sealed in stone. While he does not do everything in his power to minimize the suffering of ponies, and sits on his ass instead, he still takes action which helps end the conflict favorably, and does not go out of his way to increase suffering or seek it out. He simply does not care.>dirt sandwichIf mockery is malice, then you must see a lot of malice in the world. Ill behavior, but weak example.Also, as they are ponies, they can actually eat the grass, so this is kind of just good advice.>betray fluttershyHe makes it perfectly clear what his motives are in the moment.
>>43230351He believed that fluttershy would expect this of him, because he didn't think they were actually friends, which is the same reason tirek was able to tempt him in the first place. His understanding of his relationship with fluttershy was one which did not involve loyalty from either of them, which is why he was wrong about fluttershy, and expected fluttershy to expect her friend discord to "betray" her. One cannot really betray their jailer, and fluttershy was, basically, his parole officer at the time. >pre-gaming his mind controlI'll take the meanest example, which is the pinkie pie one. What has more malice:>successfully arguing that someone's insecurities are correct such that they become paranoid and depressive as a result>simply mind controlling them into being paranoid and depressiveIn both cases, after the event in question, the pony goes through the same experience. In one case, they are emotionally compromised for absolutely no valid reason. This condition has simply been inflicted upon them and cannot be resisted or given meaning, but is still being experienced. In the other case, there is a specific reason why they are being emotional, and so these emotions function as an outlet for or reaction to those reasons. The responses they are having, while influenced, are still "them", and so can potentially be reclaimed as a part of their larger whole.The only long-term effect of discord taking the extra time and effort to pick at a mental flaw of each of the ponies is that their sense of self is potentially less damaged by what is about to happen, and their personal issues are given an excuse to express themselves and so given a chance to gain contradicting data that would normally be unavailable in polite society.>your pointEvery mind control and flex of chaotic energy is used to challenge a pony's insecurities and pretenses, which would not be necessary if discord's goals were merely suffering and pain and would be very inefficient actions. All attacks on and betrayals of the government relate to direct conflict with the government, which is to be expected when a bureaucracy attempts to overpower a spirit of great power, or even a powerful adventurer, and this includes his conflict with fluttershy. Constantly, after reformation, he directly claims that his action, and inaction, is designed to allow the people around him to grow through adversity, mostly twilight. If we assume he is a consistent character with any internal motivations at all, then it should be assumed that he had this motivation previously. If so, then that would mean that his exact intent, in basally all cases other than direct conflict, was not pain, but growth. Growth, even without adversity, still requires the challenge of preconceptions, which absolutely requires that people face exactly that which they normally hide from, their insecurity. In other words, discord is specifically benevolent, and also arrogant and retarded.
>>43230234Honestly the betrayals and nuisances he pulled earned him a spot as a permanent statue alongside the bug, the filly and the halfbreed. Same with Starlight and her endless psychopathy and mind-control shenanigans. Really the only one who felt remorse and changed was Luna and even she was a narcoleptic misanthrope.
>>43227952Cozy Glow shouldn't have been turned to stone. Tirek and Chrysalis are fair enough, I think at least they should have been given one final chance to reform when defeated (not without punishment, but a chance to work towards redemption) and have them turn it down cus they'd rather be evil and turned to stone then bow down to the ponies they hate. But Cozy Glow is a foal, doesn't feel right at all.
>>43230351>>43230351>t.
>>43230381I mean , its not like Princess Twilight cannot unseal her ever again to give her another chance in the future.
>>43227952Of the lot:>Sombra has basically fuck-all personality wise to sus out if he's redeemable or not.>Cosy's big problem is she's a known deceiver with no known origin for that behaviour. You can't know for sure if she's ever been redeemed because it might just be a long ploy on her part. You'd have to deconstruct her and put her back together again from the ground up.>Chrysalis holds long grudges. Waiting for Starlight to croak and then keeping her at distance from any still-living enemies of hers is the easiest way to redeem her, though controlling her grudge via bringing out a competitive side might work as well, but that'll still keep the troublesome grudge behaviour.>Tirek's literally only got brother and daddy issues, a hunger for self improvement, and a dangerous power. You throw a power limiter on that shit, give him a trained therapist, and allow him a full gym set and he'll be a decent enough guy in months, easy. Fortunately, if you take off his Inhibitor and he goes back to his old behaviour, his power leaves noticeable signs and takes a while to get going with weak-ass ponies, so you got plenty of time to throw him back in the limiter.
>>43227956plap plap
>>43230351>>43230355Holy tl;dr Batman
>>43228341>"Irredeemable" villains were "reformed"The trio could've been instantly redeemed like Luna and Sunset if they started crying after getting hit the by the gay laser. I'm not a big fan of the rainbow laser being such a quick and easy shortcut to reform villains but I'd still accept it.>>43230366Starlight was really the only properly redeemed villain since she was just a misunderstood mare that was never really evil in the first place similar to Trixie and Luna. She felt remorse and changed, surrendering on her own without needing to be hit with a rainbow laser then kneeling to Twilight's judgement without even running away. Starlight's guilt was so much that she even had nightmares over it. And no, she's not any more psycho than Twilight, they both had one oopsie, that's it. Starlight and Twilight weren't endlessly mind controlling ponies.
>>43230822>the gay laser.I like to believe it only works if there is some trace of good inside the target. Sunset and starlight were either well meaning and just misguided and still had some goodness deep inside.The evil trio is just too evil for the gay laser to works on them, since they have no goodness left inside of them, if there ever was at first
>>43230916Meant Luna
>>43230916That's how I feel too, their hearts were so empty that even the combined friendship power of two sets of element bearers along with the rest of the gang couldn't reach them.
>>43228427>Even in his first introduction he wasn't actively killing ponies and causing direct suffering to anypony but the mane 6 (and by proxy Celestia) , and that only due to them being the sole ponies able to seal him again.Watch the fucking episode.
>>43230822>Starlight was really the only properly redeemed villainYou are the biggest fucking idiot on /mlp/ right now
>>43230822>The trio could've been instantly redeemed like Luna and Sunset if they started crying after getting hit the by the gay laserIt worked in Luna's case because she wasn't the villain of that story, Nightmare Moon was; a persona born out of her own feelings of dejection and jealousy. Nightmare Moon wasn't meant to be redeemable. Luna's 'goodness' is completely absent in her in the first place. She was just a 'shell' created around Luna to protect her from her own bitterness and the world that she felt rejected her, one that completely ended up consuming her in the process. It took the Magic of Friendship™ to finally break her out of that shell and allow the real Luna to come back.>but what about the IDW comicsnot canon
>>43230351>What has more intentionalistic malice, brainwashing through arguing or brainwashing without arguing?NTA, in both cases they are "them".1. I shouldn't be afraid that my friends laugh at my expense because that's retarded. <- the most relevant to normal life (unless brainwashing is a daily happenstance in Equestria?) lesson to learn2. I shouldn't be afraid that my friends laugh at my expense because a high-CHA character may use this flaw to manipulate me. <- I get to experience my flaw, yet the real context (the manipulator's intent) has nothing to do with its nature or origin, so the experience is somewhat tainted. I'll have to sit and manually re-reclaim some of it later. The part of the experience about being manipulated is entirely opaque to me in the moment and I will have to manually claim it in its entirety.3. I shouldn't be afraid that my friends laugh at my expense (or "I shouldn't be capable of being depressive", mutatis mutandis. It's not clear which one was it) because a wizard character may use this flaw (or this capacity) to manipulate me. <- I get to experience my flaw (or my latent capacity for moping and paranoiding), yet the context has nothing to do with my flaw (or with regular causes of my sads) so I'll have to manually re-reclaim a bunch of it later. The part of my experience about being manipulated again will have to be manually claimed.Experience 2 seems to be much closer to 3 than to 1. Experiences 2 and 3 may both be tangentially useful for learning 1. Basically psychodrama vs psychodrama on dissociatives.A better question is whether or not magical mind control is cheating. We know ponies can resist bullshiting, but off the top of my head I can't think of a single example of a pony successfully breaking free from magical brainwashing. Even Twilight with all her extensive training had to be rescued by Spike in the Crystal Empire. What's up with that? Once I'm in Equestria, I will regularly brainwash all the little fillies to mithridatise them against it. Right after their weekly hooves-on training with high explosives.
>>43232744>I can't think of a single example of a pony successfully breaking free from magical brainwashing.Twiggles read scrolls she herself wrote. Spike overcame greed when faced with a reminder of his own prior emotions.The m5 regained their cutiemark from a state of fundamental altercation by re-experiencing their passions. While these all still indirectly involve the actions of another person, all that is directly required is that the mind-controlled individual is still receiving stimulation from the wider world and thinking so that they may, by chance, experience something familiar and emotionally resonant. Sombra's mass mind control, which removes the potential for outside stimulation by covering the eyes and controlling the pony via simplistic robotic instructions, could not be broken, or at least was not.
>>43232721Nice headcanon.Not sure why you'd even want to reduce her agency and ruin her character like that as if she dindu nuffin. She's black so I guess that makes sense.
>>43232685
>>43230366Discord backsliding from his redemption since Fluttershy was the only one who had 'pure' motives for doing so makes some sense since he's a millennia old spirit to whom the concept of empathy is totally new. And he was even surprised that Fluttershy actually believed in him when he worked with Tirek the first time, since Celestia made them redeem him for her own plans. Not defending that Discord's betrayal wasn't a move that warrants punishment but you can follow the train of thought around it.That Discord would go on to betray Equestria to work with Tirek a second time is stupid and solidifies him as a reckless, malicious villain dangerous to others and himself.
>>43233248I'm adding my own interpretation to it obviously, but the original intent behind Nightmare Moon was that Luna didn't have agency while she was transformed as her. This is why Celestia was forced to banish her to the moon to begin with; she would have tried to get through to her sister and make some sort of amends before it reached that point. I don't think it necessarily makes her a dindu nuffin character either, since it was her own jealousy, resentment, and need for validation that gave birth to NMM, and Luna still clearly remembers (and feels guilty for) what she did as her after she transformed back.
>>43234054>betray Equestria to work with Tirek a second timehm what when what huh?what ya hallerin about, stinky?
>>43234085Unfortunately Faust wasn't able to portray her intent in canon. We have no idea if that was even her true intent, she could've made that up on the spot after being asked that question. It is essentially Faust's own headcanon.It is a dindu nuffin character though, jealousy is a very common human emotion felt in one way or another yet most of us don't commit crimes over it. Luna got to commit crimes then blame it on a mysterious 3rd party entity that came out of nowhere, and it makes her look retarded feeling guilty over getting mind controlled if none of her crimes were her fault, Luna didn't choose to be mind controlled, meaning she has no responsibility for whatever NMM did. It's not even the same as Trixie feeling bad for what she did to Ponyville because at least Trixie chose to put on the amulet like a drunk driver chose to drink and cause an accident. Feeling guilty over what someone else did has ZERO weight, like white guilt over slavery, fuck that nonsense.
>>43234316nta>It is a dindu nuffin character though, jealousy is a very common human emotion felt in one way or another yet most of us don't commit crimes over it. Luna got to commit crimes then blame it on a mysterious 3rd party entity that came out of nowhere, and it makes her look retarded feeling guilty over getting mind controlled if none of her crimes were her fault, Luna didn't choose to be mind controlled, meaning she has no responsibility for whatever NMM didi wouldn't handwave it so easily to be fair.Nightmare moon is not a mere "third party" , its is an emotional corruption of Luna herself. If we take as completely canon the existence of Daybreaker too, it is easy to see that NMM and Daybreaker are forces of maliciousness that are deep part of Celestia and Luna (and maybe every alicorn as special and old as them), it is when they subcumb to dark thoughts that they get corrupted into turning into powerful evil versions of themselves.Now we will never see this in the actual canon...THANKS TO GEN 5 screwing up with Opaline (seriously, she should've had her own corrupted form as well, just fully embracing it instead).SO the evil that canonically rapresented NMM is also something deep inside Luna, that she failed to control and was overwhealmed by it. its not just a mere machination my someone else, its pretty much a Jeckil-Hide scenario where a powerful entity can be enslaved by its own dark desires adn be corrupted by it, and since Luna herself still had traces of goodness deep inside of her,it was possible to save her with the gay rainbow.
>>43234369>emotional corruptionSo school shooters were just emotionally corrupted or what? Was Twilight resorting to abusing fillies over a homework assignment emotional corruption? So everyone gets a free pass now? Don't worry they were just emotionally corrupted, tee-hee.
>>43234400My wife is autistic, don't be so hard on her!
>>43234400school shooters aren't god-like immortal entities which powers can challenge the rules of physics and nature.these are super magical god-like equines that can be subject and corrupted by their own magic into turning into dark and evil versions of themselves.especially the old and eternal gens like Celestia and Luna (and Opaline if the writers weren't massive coward hacks)
>>43234426I love your wife's good and bad side, they are both a beautiful part of her.
>>43234369A father who normally is against murder killing the rapist of his child in a crime of passion can be considered emotional corruption. The father is still the same person, that's what Luna and NMM are, they're still the same person, cartoons alicorns just get a cool transformation out of it.
>>43234453again, these are god-like entities susceptible to their own magic. is not something that can be compared to any human impulse.it is something more magical and beyond human comprension since the corruption and transformation is literal
>>43234513>these are god-like entities susceptible to their own magicWhere'd you get that information from?
>>43234544>little immortal mare, usually a good girl, loses against her own insecurities and jelousy toward her stronger and older sister.>turns into an adult and strong evil mare>literally a different personality, presence and confidence>once healed by it thanks to the power of friendship, she reverts into the introverse and timid mare she used to be, even showing some massive historical and cultural dissonance after 1000 years stuck on the moon and into her evil form.the two are too different despite being the very same entity. Since no other magic was involved and if we take daybreaker as canon, we can conclude when an ancient and powerful Alicorn can be corrupted by its own strenght and powers into shaping herself into an horrible beast (maybe age is not even a factor, just power...so twilight might have a similar form deep inside of her).i will repeat again, if only the hacks didn't failed Opaline, she could've been the perfect example of what happens to a powerful/ancient Alicorn if ambracing her corruption.
>>43234573In S4 we see Luna acting like NMM before she even turns super saiyan, the difference in personality is just Luna when she's mad, just like anyone's personality changes when they're mad. That's normal.Luna becoming timid after getting her ass kicked is normal too. Of course she'd whimper in defeat, that's part of her personality. Like Fluttershy when she unleashes her wrath, but she just doesn't get a cool temporary evil bat pegasi transformation, Luna's transformation is simply a fancy reflection of her feelings, it doesn't mean she's a different person.
>>43230822>Starlightnigger once again makes false equivalences between Twilight and Starlight to make his sociopathic mess of a waifu look betterYou "people" really cannot be taken seriously.
Uh oh twiniggers chimping out again, just like their waifu!
>>43234573>>43234633The corrupting influence of dark magic is a general theme in FiM and not necessarily tied to alicorns. Celestia demonstrates some kind of dark magic before Sombra is introduced as a monstrous entity with the same sort of magic. Is Sombra a Mr. Hyde situation? Beyond self contradicting comic lore, who knows. Stygian opening himself to magical darkness over hurt feelings plays out the same way as Nightmare Moon. The act is almost like inviting a demon to possess you. After Luna returns to her wits, she continues to dabble in devilry by creating a Tantabus; The "darkness" in this case has a will of its own.It really is funny how easy it is to fake being corrupted by an outside force puppeteering your body in Equestria.
>>43228165>"Besides, I'm a big dragon now. What chance do you have?" As Spike sends Thorax flying>Until he's caught by Queen Chrysalis.>"He has me."
>>43227952>So whos fault is it?I put it on the writers. They had a kneejerk reaction to everyone hating Starlight and the Pony of Shadow faggot's redemptions and wanted to make sure the next villains weren't redeemed. Then they compounded the problem by having S9 be so shit that one of the only highlight episodes was the one that focused on the villains and gave them a bit of sympathy. Then they fucked up the finale's pacing by cramming the Windigo race war stuff in and not having any time to do a proper "hero offers their hand and the villain rejects it" thing to affirm the rejected redemption.
