Haydn editionhttps://youtu.be/gVDWf_COA8IThis thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:https://rentry.org/classicalgenPrevious: >>127888054
babiaa
>The last performance Haydn attended [of his oratorio The Creation] was on March 27, 1808, just a year before he died: the aged and ill Haydn was carried in with great honour on an armchair. According to one account, the audience broke into spontaneous applause at the coming of "light" and Haydn, in a typical gesture, weakly pointed upwards and said: "Not from me—everything comes from up there!"based pious papa haydn
>>127912820https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa6DRoxpOwg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIvWjI4PrJw
not really important but this pianist Craig Sheppard's recordings have the worst album covers I've ever seen for a supposedly talented musician, good lord, looks like something you'd find in a music shop in Kentucky from the local town pianist
Wagnerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6LvdUAOpa4
Rostropo's Bachhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7QjvJSF33A&list=OLAK5uy_kv8--oGFP9zVe7a7MLfuTOne4VbP-4h5w&index=36
How many of these old generation great musicians were actually as good as their current reputation would suggest as opposed to just being first? From Toscanini to Furtwangler to Klemperer, Rostropovich to Casals to Fournier, Oistrakh to Heifetz to Stern, Richter to Michelangeli to Serkin, and so on, take your pick, we hold these classic musicians in such high esteem, and no doubt some of it is warranted solely for the influence and innovation, but are they actually worth being remembered and listened to today, especially compared to the generations which followed?
https://voca.ro/12m8gDCZpQSn
>>127913603snap your neck.
>>127913621I'm tuning it this weekend I promise
>>127913404It's very nice
>>127913792:3one of my very sets of the cello suites, it goes down so smooth, and is spiritually refreshing
>>127913516>From Toscaninihe was one of the most adept orchestral trainers of his day and was arguably one of the leading reasons for the rise of standard-of-playing, along with Stokowski and Mengelberg. his recordings have probably aged the most poorly, not because he was a bad conductor but because he was so enormously influential and copied - sometimes directly so - that there's only a few recordings of his worth hearing still; mostly the early stuff with the NY Phil, some of his operas (Otello, Falstaff), and some exceptional performances like his Missa Solemni.>Furtwangleri think of his style, i.e. flexibility of tempo, a more loose interpretation of the score, a sense of improvisational inspiration, he's aged pretty decently, but Mengelberg was better and often got better results from the orchestra. still, Furtwangler was a genius, and there's still a good chunk of his recordings worth hearing. https://desuarchive.org/mu/thread/126924931/#126933294this is a good list>KlempererKlemp was pretty unique in his rigidity, i.e. his inflexible nature to tempo, where some conductors sped up or slowed down, Klemperer would maintain a steady pace, and often underutilized tempo fluctuations in order to bring more attention to the 'structure' of the music itself, whether it be in his extraordinary sense of balance. Klemperer was lucky in that Legge gave him a top tier orchestra and often great engineering. still worth hearing. i could go on, i don't really care for Rostrpovich, Fournier, or Oistrakh though. really, i think all of these musicians have at least a few worthwhile recordings that live up to their reputation, and i can't really think of any performers in the last 20 years that has had equivalent influence or notoriety.
>>127913884>Klemperer would maintain a steady pace, and often underutilized tempo fluctuations in order to bring more attention to the 'structure' of the music itselfBut didn't the very idea of excessive fluctuation of tempo arise from the romantic desire to bring more attention to the structure of the music? How does underutilised tempo fluctuations bring attention to the structure?
>>127913884So, in essence, you think the history of performance and musicians is akin to the artists where the old greats are forever timeless?
Hmm, which recording of Chopin's Nocturnes tonight... do we go with a familiar one in Hough, Pollini, Arrau, Livia Rev, Pires, Freire, Engerer, Fliter, Moravec, and more, or try a new one... let's try this one by Claire Huangcihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaq4GKAAO4M&list=OLAK5uy_k92dH2YZJVO1b5cIso_urepAk8ps9FfmU&index=8>Claire Huangci proves herself to be a vividly expressive interpreter of Chopin, the first since Artur Rubinstein to offer a complete cycle of the Nocturnes by Frédéric Chopin. During her background research work into Chopin's oeuvre she repeatedly came across poems by French authors such as Charles Baudelaire, Victor Hugo and Tristan Corbière. She began to form associations and found a poem contemporary to each of Chopin's nocturnes. You will find the links between poetry and music in the booklet. Claire Huangci herself explains: "They may add a further dimension to your listening pleasure, so that everyone can conjure up an image of what I see as I play. I do hope that these lovely verses will act as an impetus to allow listeners' fantasy to take flight and to create their very own Chopin diary."interesting, might have to check out the accompanying booklet if I end up liking it. Next time I'll revisit a more familiar recording.
>>127914038that's just the argument that Klemperer fans use, hence why i gave it air quotes https://accelerandobjmd.pages.dev/articles/issue5/analysis-of-klemperers-interpretation-of-eroica/i'm not really a fan of that argument but you can see it posited here as well as many other articles on his recordings>>127914060for the most part, yeah. it depends, though. not all the old greats are worth remembering.
>>127913884Klemp recorded some of the fastest Mozart in his younger years.
>>127913516pachelbel is shit-tier despite his canon becoming a bit of a meme. even his influence on pop chord progressions isn't what people say it is, they're reading too much into that one comedy routine.
>>127913884>i could go on, i don't really care for Rostrpovich, Fournier, or Oistrakh though. really, i think all of these musicians have at least a few worthwhile recordings that live up to their reputation, and i can't really think of any performers in the last 20 years that has had equivalent influence or notoriety.I guess being honest, I have somewhat of a bias toward giving contemporary performers the benefit-of-the-doubt because I want to make a living as an artist myself, and how can I expect anyone to buy my books if I won't engage with other living artists myself? If everyone sticks to the classics, no one will read me! Point being, I wonder if this bias prevents me from admitting how much better the older greats are compared to this current generation, or if it's been a boon in motivating me to give contemporary artists and musicians not only a chance, but multiple. Guess we'll never know.
>>127914207never post here again.
>>127914234cope>One of the last middle Baroque composers, Pachelbel did not have any considerable influence on most of the famous late Baroque composers, such as George Frideric Handel, Domenico Scarlatti or Georg Philipp Telemann. However, he did influence Johann Sebastian Bach indirectly; the young Johann Sebastian was tutored by his older brother Johann Christoph Bach, who studied with Pachelbel, but although J.S. Bach's early chorales and chorale variations borrow from Pachelbel's music, the style of northern German composers, such as Georg Böhm, Dieterich Buxtehude, and Johann Adam Reincken, played a more important role in the development of Bach's talent.[27]
>>127914190he did, yeah. stereo Klemp is pretty different from mono Klemp, he slowed down. i generally like his approach the earlier it is, his mono Mozart is exemplary. >>127914225as far as contemporary artists are concerned, i'm pretty taken with most chamber groups these days. quartets are in their golden age at the moment, there are quite a few groups worth listening to. i can't really say the same for pianists, conductors, and especially opera singers
>>127914122These Asian pianists are almost always lacking spiritual depth and soul in their performances, no matter how pretty and virtuosic their playing can be.
>>127914474cope. you sound like a nigger.
now playingLiszt: Ballade No. 2 in B Minor, S. 171https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMFNtgHMq2Y&list=OLAK5uy_ku1qrxq1bpJbOoOzi8aQiWDpCEwuukq6I&index=2start of Liszt: Harmonies poétiques et religieuses III, S. 173https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui7SNvhR0cE&list=OLAK5uy_ku1qrxq1bpJbOoOzi8aQiWDpCEwuukq6I&index=3start of Liszt: 3 Lieberstraümehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8NP31UkuEk&list=OLAK5uy_ku1qrxq1bpJbOoOzi8aQiWDpCEwuukq6I&index=12https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ku1qrxq1bpJbOoOzi8aQiWDpCEwuukq6I
>Bruckner was a lifelong bachelor who made numerous unsuccessful marriage proposals to teenage girls. One such was the daughter of a friend, called Louise; in his grief he is believed to have written the cantata Entsagen (Renunciation). His affection for teenage girls led to an accusation of impropriety where he taught music, and while he was exonerated, he decided to concentrate on teaching boys afterwards. His calendar for 1874 details the names of girls who appealed to him, and the list of such girls in all his diaries was very long. In 1880 he fell for a 17-year-old peasant girl in the cast of the Oberammergau Passion Play. His unsuccessful proposals to teenagers continued when he was past his 70th birthday; one prospect, a hotel chambermaid in Berlin named Ida Buhz, came near to marrying him but broke off the engagement when she refused to convert to Catholicism.[33][34][30] He suffered from periodic attacks of depression, with his numerous failed attempts to find a female companion only adding to his unhappiness.[35]t
>>127915260Based Bruckner reminding us that women are in their prime in their teens
Bachophiles vs. Mahlerians vs. Wagnerites - The three most insufferable fanbases in classical music go against each other in a Triple Threat boxing match with four rounds! Who is winning the first round?
>>127915484the Brucknerchads come in and kill all of them
>>127915484Mahler and Wagner would team up to beat Bach in the first round.
>>127915484Scriabincels would win with telekinesis
>>127915484not sure but Schoenbergians would be the referee.
>>127915484>>127915576actually the Brucknerchads would approach every teenage girl present at the event and propose to them.
>>127915613And they would both lose, Wagnersister because despite being a "neo-nazi" he is actually on HRT and Mahlercuck just because he is a Mahlercuck while his wife is getting bred by a BBC. (big Beethovenian Cock)
if you don't like Chopino's Nocturnos, we can't ever be friends or sleep together, sorry
>>127915260A good day to be a Bruckner hater. Turns out he had even less game than his symphonies. God I fucking hate Bruckner’s music.
>>127916535his 8th is the best symphony of all times (speaking from a purely objective and musically-educated standpoint)
>>127916470aw :(
>>127916557If we’re speaking from that standpoint, string quartets are superior to symphonies. And Beethoven has Bruckner beat in both forms.
>string quartets are superior to symphonies.
>>127916557I love the phrase 'of all times'>Mozart is timeless.meh>Mozart is music for all times.Nice.
>>127916623I mean only if we’re speaking from a musicians perspective. We can be casuals here too, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone can enjoy late Beethoven.
>>127916647I can enjoy late Bewthoven. Grosse Fuge (and the rest of Bb quartet) is one of my favorite pieces.Objectively speaking:Piano Concerti > piano chamber music > orchestral/symphonic > solo piano > string concerti > various chamber ensambles > string-only chamber > solo string > solo whatever > choral > organ >>> voice.
I asked my kitty (me on the left) whose her favorite pianist and she replied,>ARRAUW!!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYh60U5rFtY
>>127916658I’ll take Schubert lieder over piano concerti any day. Also>Bb quartet Don’t larp on me, it’s 130.
>Schubert lieder
>>127916677>Schubert lieder over piano concerti any dayHoly retard.I memorize key better than opus. Grosse fuge and the quartet are also different opuses.
>>127916690Go to music school and you’ll be the only one not using the opus. Though no one really says op 133 for the grosse fugue if you’re planning on performing it. It’s just 130 plus the grosse fugue.
>>127916690Get ready to get triggered, because I would choose to listen to Oscar Peterson Trio over piano concerto most days.
>>127916698>schoolNo.
been a while since I listened to any Schubert lieder; now playingstart of Schubert: Winterreise, Op. 89, D. 911https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZmc2m-GYYA&list=OLAK5uy_l3wLvhvw2zmlcZRmf5CAG8Jc95vQ5OiAE&index=1https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l3wLvhvw2zmlcZRmf5CAG8Jc95vQ5OiAEYes, it's a female version, can't stand male lieder. Also can't go wrong with Brigitte Fassbaender. I looked up a survey of recordings by Ralph Moore and these are his top recommendations,>Mezzo-soprano: Brigitte Fassbaender*>Contralto: Nathalie Stutzmann>Tenor: Jon Vickers/Geoffrey Parsons *>Baritone: Florian Boesch*>Bass-baritone: Thomas Quasthoff>Bass: Kurt Moll>*First choiceshttps://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/May/Schubert-Winterreise-survey.htmI only knew Stutzmann as a conductor, neat to see she was a singer before, might try her version soon.
>>127916751Why not?
>>127916698Anon, who cares? Yes, opus is preferable to key here but no need to be anal about it.
>>127916785Based. Not a fan of Dieskau?
>>127916794Oh we were just speaking from a musical superiority standpoint. I wouldn’t double take if you used key irl.
>>127916795If you mean me, his was the first Winterreise I ever tried, and yeah, it was not for me. I don't care for any of his soloist material, like his DLvdE with Bernstein. If you mean Ralph Moore, this is what he has to say about DFD,>Let me clarify my no-go areas. My first exclusion category consists of what I hear as those windy, throaty, “Kermit-voiced” Germanic baritones headed by the likes of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, whose voices lack proper resonance and rounded beauty of tone. All my life, in over fifty years of loving the human voice operating at its optimum beauty and efficiency, I have been told that DFD’s artistry represents the pinnacle of Lieder singing. While I can enjoy him in a few, limited recordings made in the earlier part of his long career, I have never recognised in his singing the paragon others claim it to be. His example has given rise to a succession of mainly Germanic baritones whose vocal technique, based either directly via teaching or indirectly via imitation, reproduces the same flaws which characterise his singing. Those successors include baritones such as Wolfgang Holzmair and Matthias Goerne, whose tone is forced and the product of too much tension on the thyro-arytenoid muscles in their vocal apparatus. The result is a sound I cannot abide but which receives widespread acceptance and even adulation, causing some to wax lyrical in a manner which baffles me.
>>127916814I meant you, but thanks for sharing Moore’s take too. I honestly love DFD lieder, but can completely get the distaste for Kermit style singing. I don’t think I hear it quite as much in DFD as I do other singers, but then again I grew up with my teachers praising DFD so I’ve stewed in some bias.
>>127916814Didn’t know that was a German influence too, appreciate you sharing the knowledge.
>>127916658correct, except solo piano >>> everything else
>>127916786School is a prison.
I did a random googling of 20th century pianists and I can't believe how recently some of these musicians lived and died. Like Rosalyn Tureck passed away only in 2003, what!? Pollini 2024 but I guess I knew that. Van Cliburn 2013!? Ivan Moravec 2015, Leon Fleisher 2020, it's blowing my mind for some reason. I guess it doesn't really matter because a lot of these greats were far past their prime and often didn't release anything of note in their final years or even decades (Tureck couldn't record and release an updated, non-hiss WTC for example?), but still, it's neat trivia.
>>127916877Conservatory is a great place to collaborate with world renowned musicians.
>>127916877>>127916880Like Leon Fleisher.
>>127916855>>127916862Ralph Moore has some great surveys of works and reviews of specific recordings in general, well-worth reading if you're into that kinda stuff like me. And yeah, I can definitely appreciate DFD's greatness from an outside perspective, and I still recommend to newbies to lieder to start with him and decide where they stand. I'm not so much of a hater that I avoid even ensemble choral recordings if I see his name on it like I've seen from some, lol.
>>127916880>schnabel died in 1951>yet people here *still* recommend his beethoven>mfw-_-
>>127916900Hell yeah, I’ll take a look.
>>127916880Poor Katchen died at 43 :( same year as Backhaus, who was born over 40 years prior! And neither go to see the release of The Godfather, sad. Also Rubinstein died only 3 years before Gilels? The way people talk about Rubinstein and the style of his recordings, you would think he died in the 50s or 60s at latest, not early 80s, damn. S Richter lived till '97, that tracks, and still couldn't lay down a proper Beethoven piano sonatas cycle, sad.
>>127916622Symphonies allow for more color and are therefore always better. Every string quartet is improved instantly by transcribing for orchestra, no matter how lazy the transcription
>>127916968>all food is better with mayo, ketchup and chocolate sauce on it, the argument
>>127916968I can’t take you seriously.>>127916982kek
>>127916982>all food is better with mayo, ketchup and chocolate sauce on itfacts, you literally cannot deny this
>>127916968I’ll bite though. Would you share what colors in Op 131 are missing or would be improved through orchestration?
>>127917030All of them
>>127917030https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SHZlYClZ2k
>>127916880RIP Pollini my main man
>>127917036Reminds me of a violinist I played with when I was in middle school who said the great thing about Mozart’s music is that you can switch any section of the piece and the form still works and sounds great.
>>127917066This is a fun novelty.>really gotta make the accent in the cello entrance hardcore, lets drop the octaveAlso there are wrong notes in this recording, see 1:50.
>>127917094He also has one of Op. 135.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRM5yTQDEucI would kill for a quality string orchestra set of the entire cycle. I've seen a couple recordings which have a couple random ones but I haven't given them a try.
>>127917094>Also there are wrong notes in this recording, see 1:50.We just call those 'Bernstein-isms'
>>127917110It’d be interesting for sure. I’d pick Cleveland Orchestra if I had a choice. Honestly though I think these quartets lose their intimacy when played as an orchestra.
>>127916785damn, loving this onehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hh5KvZNQpI&list=OLAK5uy_l3wLvhvw2zmlcZRmf5CAG8Jc95vQ5OiAE&index=11>>127917129Of course, there's a give-and-take between the lush sonority of an orchestra and the tonal clarity and voice precision of a quartet.
Zhu Xiao-Mei's Bachhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb63muLI1HQ&list=OLAK5uy_n3xvVKqxEWSdb-GzUsYRX4qlX1RJlY5WQ&index=9>Johann Sebastian Bach plays a key role in her life - she is today one of the most significant interpreters of his music. The remarkable biography of this celebrated pianist gives her a unique position in the world of music. Her life has taken her from the re-education camps of the Chinese Cultural Revolution to Paris, where her international career as a pianist began rather late, but for that all the more successful. >In Leipzig, where Bach held his final professional position and where he composed The Art of Fugue, Zhu Xiao-Mei recorded this contrapuntal masterpiece, which is for her ""the absolute zenith of polyphonic art."" As she says, ""The Art of Fugue exercises a total fascination on you. It's like a magnet: you can't detach yourself from it. It is music that opens the gates to an infinite world where time no longer exists; a world where beauty and peace reign supreme, detached from all earthly contingencies.~>Her playing of the piece - in which Bach explored varied contrapuntal treatments of an initial fugal subject in D minor - is imaginative and passionate, the polyphony beautifully illuminated with Ms. Zhu's nuanced contrasts and crisp touch. --Vivien Schweitzer, New York Times Classical Playlist>New York Times, Classical Best of 2014: In the program notes, the pianist Zhu Xiao-Mei describes the mental and physical toil of preparing this difficult work, rendered here with imagination and insight. The polyphony is deftly illuminated with a crisp touch and elegant contrasts. --Vivien Schweitzer, New York Times
>>127917116My favorite Bernstein-ism is playing the final movement of Shostakovich 5 at almost twice the composed speed.
>>127917160One thing for which I have to give Bach's music props: his best music possesses a metaphysical depth almost no other composer possesses even a trace amount. Beethoven reaches it in his late string quartets and late piano sonatas. Shostakovich perhaps in his Op. 87? Hints in Prokofiev like his eighth piano sonata, maybe his violin sonatas. Liszt, certainly. Does Scriabin in moments of his best piano sonatas? It's possible. But none top Bach in this area. He's like Plato opening our eyes to the ideal form of beauty.
>>127917247>metaphysical depthCan you clarify what this means to you?
>>127916968Correct. This is what makes orchestra objectively superior to every other arrangement, and this is coming from a pianofag who puts solo piano/concerto/piano chamber above all else, see>>127916658. Having personal preference should not blind your judgement. Orchestral music is supreme.Add piano, and it's perfection.>>127916982No, but food is better when it's rich in vitamins, healthy fats/carbs and protein, always.>>127916786Academia has been infiltrated and destroyed from within.
>>127917661>I know better than BeethovenI dunno 4chan man
>>127917697When did I say that? What do I know better than Beethoven exactly? You are insanely retarded
>>127917704>This is what makes orchestra objectively superior to every other arrangementIn response to a message saying all quartets are better as orchestral arrangements. Ergo, you both assume you know better than Beethoven when it comes to ensemble in composition. All I’m saying is that maybe you’re just some guy with his dick in his hand while famous composers (except Bruckner) were out there getting tail and making masterpieces.
>>127917734>In response to a message saying all quartets are better as orchestral arrangements.By "arrangement" I meant the genre it was composed in, not an arrangement of a piece. I haven't even listened to SQ orchestral arrangements except for op.133, and it was string orchestra. I apologize for the confusion.>Ergo, you both assume you know better than Beethoven when it comes to ensemble in compositionErgo, you lack the ability to make valid logical implications as no one stated they know anything better than Beethoven.>All I’m saying is that maybe you’re just some guy with his dick in his handPointing at your face, yes.
>>127917818>Every string quartet is improved instantly by transcribing for orchestra, no matter how lazy the transcription>Correct.I guess learn to read? All that defensiveness is clouding your abilities. Whether or not you actually agree with the take you responded to, that’s the conversation you’re furthering. And that poster did take the stance that he knew better than Beethoven through his statement. Apology accepted.
>>127917938>Symphonies allow for more color and are therefore always better. >Correct.SQs are hard to arrange for orchestra, which is something I disagree with. Everything else he said is pretty much correct. It still cannot be logically implied that we know "better than Beethoven". We don't even know why or how Beethoven wrote string quartets. And diversity of genres is always good.
Atonal music is a lot like constipation: it's a rough ride while you endure it, and you feel so much relief when it's done.
>>127918067Fuckin' A!
huh how did I not know about this release; now playingstart of Debussy: Préludes, Book 1, L. 117https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4GS267f24&list=OLAK5uy_liVQtamzg9kkAMTLEMBEAbiL78MDzn5QY&index=2start of Debussy: Préludes, Book 2, L. 123https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EHeKRs9U3s&list=OLAK5uy_liVQtamzg9kkAMTLEMBEAbiL78MDzn5QY&index=13https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_liVQtamzg9kkAMTLEMBEAbiL78MDzn5QY>The 24 Preludes represent what must be the best known cycle of pieces by the Impressionist composer Claude Debussy. The compositions are alive with magic, poetry and depiction in sound. No pianist can approach the demands of their composer more closely than Friedrich Gulda; Debussys instruction to breathe with the pedal is something that Gulda, alone among pianists, has mastered to perfection. The pianists instinctive sense of touch draws from the works of Debussy just what the composer wished: loud sections are thundered forth, while pianissimo passages sound so intimate and close at hand that ones own heartbeat sounds like the summons of an imperious drum. To do justice to this perfection, the recording is also released in full-spectrum sound quality.>Gulda, rebel among pianists, was a great admirer of Debussys music. As early as the 1940s, he proved with his recordings of Lisle joyeuse and Reflets dans leau his infallible sense of the composers music. The pianist immersed himself in the depths of Debussys harmonies, taking his extended harmonic structure as the basis of improvisation in jazz. And there is an audible affinity in the harmonies of Guldas own composition The Air from other Planets. This intensive engagement with jazz on the one hand and with the works of Claude Debussy on the other fertilized Guldas creative powers to an equal extent, enriching his interpretation of the Preludes with regard to rhythm in particular and giving benchmark status to this recording.
>>127917391Thematic content, what the music makes you feel and think. Consider Zhu Xiao-Mei's quote in the quoted post, or her quotes on the Goldberg Variations:>"In this work," says Zhu Xiao Mei, "Bach gave musical expression to life in all of its infinite facets." The Chinese pianist's name is inextricably linked to that of Johann Sebastian Bach. For Zhu Xiao-Mei the special quality of the Goldberg Variations lies in the fact that all human emotions and feelings find expression here. "I love them above all else, each day a little more, and I have always wanted to share this love with others...">"It is the cyclical character of the work that I believe affects listeners the most. It begins and ends in the same way. And when we again hear the Aria, we have the impression that we have understood something. It is about life and death. The Chinese will quote Lao Tzu: "The return is the movement of Tao." Christians will talk about eternal life. It is also about the idea that there is no ending. And so there is hope."Metaphysical. In the same way Dante is metaphysical. In the same way Hamlet is metaphysical.
>>127917993By saying that Beethoven’s works are improved by changing their arrangement, it’s clear the person making the statement thinks their input makes the composition better. This infers that the person making the statement knows better than Beethoven when it comes to this facet of the music. This is a pedantic argument and music is subjective to begin with, so it’s not a very interesting discussion imo. I’m happy to ride the “fuck x opinion, y opinion is superior” train, but to come down to earth for a second, we’re discussing nonsense in a space where there’s a lot of actual substance to be had.
>>127918592>it’s clear the person making the statement thinks their input makes the composition better.This is a false implication. Making an arrangement does not alter the composition, it expands texture and expressiveness (orchestral arrangement) or makes it playable/accessible (piano arrangement).>This infers that the person making the statement knows better than Beethoven when it comes to this facet of the music.No, Beethoven himself would likely agree. The reason he did not compose his SQs for orchestra is likely combination of convenience, genre diversity, accessability. >This is a pedantic argument and music is subjective to begin withMusic is neither subjective nor objective. Aspects of music can be either objective or subjective, which is completely irrelevant here.
>>127918503>The return is the movement of TaoThat’s an interesting viewpoint, I like it. From how I’m understanding metaphysical depth in the ways you described - I’ve understood this concept in pieces, like ones you mentioned previously, in that they contain a truth about human nature that is so linked to our biology and nature that it remains emotionally relevant despite worldly changes. This is subjective though - I always thought Beethoven Op 135 movement 3 encompassed so many relatable emotions and portrayed them with clarity I’ve never seen in another art form that it basically mirrored something universal in the human experience. I’m sure people feel this way about Wagner’s Tristan and Isolde, but I’ve never felt it. Seems like a personal connection to me, we’re all just extensions of human existence that relate strongly to different emotions. I could take some time to phrase all that better, but is what I’m attempting to convey somewhat related to what you’re talking about with metaphysical depth?
>>127918724That's one good way of outlining it, yes. It's the deeper feelings and truths. Not that there's anything wrong with art which is primarily about evoking, say, joy, melancholy, exuberance, nostalgia, hope, despair, contemplation, whatever, your standard gamut of daily human emotions, but the greatest works often (but not necessarily!) go the level beyond that, to the very nature of truth, life, time, dreams, memory, good, evil, power, spirit, desire, and such themselves. It's Beethoven's Waldstein, Moonlight, or Les Adieux versus his Hammerklavier or Ops. 109-111. And yes, Op. 135 certainly applies, especially compared to the wonderful but again, more standard emotional content of the Razumovsky quartets. It's Chopin versus Liszt.
>>127917993>We don't even know why or how Beethoven wrote string quartets>The reason he did not compose his SQs for orchestra is likely combination of convenience, genre diversity, accessabilityArrangement is absolutely a part of the composition. Beethoven op 95 for sax ensemble would sound hilarious. I’m not going to assume why composers choose specific ensembles for their compositions. As I thought you were saying before, we can’t know. I do know that I prefer moments like measure ~67 in the first movement of Beethoven op 131 as a quartet. I don’t hear two violin sections, I hear two individuals. The part is too tender for more than two people imo, it loses the impact. This is the heart of quartets and why you can’t just change the ensemble without changing the music as a whole. I enjoy the intimacy of string quartets, I don’t need everything to sound like Beethoven 6th symphony, nor do I think SQs are improved by adding unnecessary texture.
Best IEMs for classical?
>>127918700>>127918827Replied to the wrong comment.
>>127918827>>127918700>>127918592>>127917993I don't mean to be rude, I'm all for discussion on anything relating to classical music and even barely relevant tangents, but you two are literally arguing about nothing, pure hypothetical ephemera.
now playingstart of Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat major Op. 73 -"Emperor"www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZ5rIBH2mw&list=OLAK5uy_mS6ZLEjjwYtIJInHHtwT-ULq9Cni3Uqx8&index=2start of Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh-hzzXu-V4&list=OLAK5uy_mS6ZLEjjwYtIJInHHtwT-ULq9Cni3Uqx8&index=4https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mS6ZLEjjwYtIJInHHtwT-ULq9Cni3Uqx8Can't go wrong with Nelson Freire + Chailly/Gewandhaus, especially considering they already have one of the best recordings of Brahms' piano concertos together, so I've got no doubt this will live up to a similar standard.
>>127918791Would you then agree with the idea of emotional duality (good necessitating evil and vice versa - one can’t exist without the other) being a pretty key factor in the emotional “truth” of these compositions? I’ve always thought, back to 3rd mvmt of 135, that the warmth and tenderness is so captivating because it’s presented alongside the peripheral awareness of tragedy. Like a loving embrace from the person closest to you in the context of tragedy.
>>127918864You are correct and your comment made me laugh. Thanks for that. Love a good worthless discussion though, wish I didn’t.
>>127918955It's a useful dramatic and narrative tool but I don't think it's required.
>>127918988I think about life working in those dualities though, which arise from the nature of how we experience emotions. It seems like a composition that only expresses a single emotion, even if it presented it convincingly, wouldn’t speak to a universal truth because it ignores the “truth” of emotional duality. Not trying to start another pedantic argument, just curious if you have a piece that seems to break this idea while remaining close to that idea of expressing a universal truth/metaphysical depth. I find this topic interesting.
>>127919041I think it just depends on the work and its scale. Let's use Shakespeare as an example: his plays contain the depth of dualities and complexities of life, but his sonnets most often only express a singular idea and viewpoint. So there are some pieces which 'only' contain assertions of life-affirmation without any hint of doubt or nihilism, especially in Beethoven, like his late piano sonatas. Or Liszt's Harmonies poétiques et religieuses, it's strictly positive in its divine proclamations and search for transcendence.
Why does this thread like to argue about ensembles. The ensemble doesn't matter, what the composer does with it matters. A shitty string quartet doesn't magically become a good symphony.
>>127919176>Liszt's Harmonies poétiques et religieusesInteresting take, and thanks for sharing some art to support. Listening to the Liszt now, that’s new to me.
>>127919041>>127919176Also, just to be clear, not all great classical music is like this, or even a majority. Some great pieces are 'just' pure music, where the pleasures are strictly formal and the truths entirely aesthetic. In music, this isn't a flaw either.
>>127919221Enjoy! If you like it, be sure to listen to the first two books of his Annees de pelerinage -- not only uniquely wonderful music, but in them Liszt expresses a wide array of human emotions and truths in a gorgeous soundscape of solo piano music.
>>127919208Ensemble is a part of the composition and not a compositional accessory - was what I was arguing.
>>127919225Yep, I agree. Love Prokofiev Sinfonia Concertante and would probably call it a masterpiece but wouldn’t lump it into the same category as the other pieces mentioned.
>>127919265I will absolutely take a listen. I’ve never leaned into solo piano music as my choice for casual listening, but I’m feeling the itch after that discussion.
>>127919327oooo finally someone else who's a fan of Prokofiev's Symphony-Concerto Op. 125! They say it was the next work Bernstein was going to record before he died, sad :( especially because I think it's a work that lacks a truly great recording. But I love it, as I'm a sucker for the cello.
>>127919384I agree, Prokofiev op 125 lacks a great recording. That’s some terrible luck for us cello enjoyers that Bernstein died before recording it. Any works for cello you love that you don’t think get the attention they deserve? Britten’s solo cello suites would be a pick from me.
>spend the last year and a half focusing on Bach preludes and fugues>give Chopin's Fantaisie-Impromptu a go the other day>it's so much easier and simpler, wtf>mfwHow old were you when you discovered that Romanticism was a meme and that Bach is actually the hardest composer?
>>127919468>Britten’s solo cello suites would be a pick from me.I really enjoy those but I understand why they aren't that popular. Granted, I do think they should be somewhat a bigger deal outside of cellists for being the best solo cello suite since Bach, but still, I get it.>Any works for cello you love that you don’t think get the attention they deserve?The Britten and Prokofiev aside, I think most things in the genre are pretty appropriately rated. Maybe Strauss' Don Quixote but since it's programmatic, I get it. And then anything else lesser known, like Britten's Cello Symphony, Myaskovsky's Cello Concertos and Cello Sonatas, Atterberg's Cello Concertos, Weinberg's Cello Concerto and solo cello sonatas, etc., are, again, appropriately rated because nice as they are, they don't belong on that first-tier with Dvorak, Schumann, Bach, Elgar, etc. Someone posted a while ago a megapost of lesser known cello works I've been meaning to go through but I always put it off if you're interested. gimme a sec...https://desuarchive.org/mu/thread/125988157/#q125988739this one. Can't vouch for all of the works/links, obviously, but if you're in the mood to explore lesser known cello pieces, check that out for sure.
>>127919516How hard or easy are Debussy and Ravel?
Who are your favourites for Bruckner 8? I've always liked Giulini. Do you have a reference in mind for the entire cycle? I know Jochum is usually cited.
Do any of you actually download .iso releases?
>>127919663Giulini aside, Karajan/Vienna and Maazel/Berlin, but there's tons and tons of great 8ths.>Do you have a reference in mind for the entire cycle?Karajan/Berlin, Barenboim/Berlin, and Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken are probably the top 3 'fundamental' cycles I'd recommend.
why doesn't Perahia have an Art of Fugue or WTC? lame
>>127919516>There is . . . a concept of me as someone who likes nothing between Bach and Schoenberg except for a few stopovers along the way. This is totally wrong. I am immensely influenced by late-Romantic music and always have been.>I have a century-long blind spot approximately demarcated by The Art of the Fugue on one side and Tristan on the other—everything in between is at best an occasion for admiration rather than love.- Glenn Gould
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D-98xB7RzkThis random piano professor on YouTube plays one of the the best ever Contrapunctus IX, shame that he hasn't made any "official" recordings.
>>127919625With Debussy, I have only tried out some of his most popular works, Clair De Lune, Arabesque, La Fille Aux Cheveux De Lin, but I know a lot of his work is much harder than those intermediate level pieces. Ravel is likely even harder, with Gaspard De La Nuit in particular being notorious for its difficulty.>>127919753I jest, I love Chopin. It's just that Bach in particular demands such ridiculous patience and diligence to make any progress with his pieces, while Chopin is much easier to sight-read and play perfectly straight away. Also, Beethoven's second sonata has been kicking my ass for the past few months, while Fantaisie-Impromptu, despite sounding far more dramatic compared to Beethoven 2, sits so comfortably under the fingers by comparison. It's nowhere near as difficult as many think. Chopin's two etudes op 10 no 2 and op 25 no 6 are not even comparable, as those are legitimately hellish pieces to play.
Do you collect classical LPs? There's many recordings that were never digitized, of course the soloists aren't usually very notable, but it's a niche.
>>127918832Truthear Hexa are very neutral and nice for classical. Get the originals.
>>127918832https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojkAZGPgOr0
>>127919516Romanticism is the highest peak that music was able to reach in terms of harmony and form. Fantaisie-Impromptu is not even a published piece by Chopin, let alone a hard piece to play. And lastly, Gould was not a real pianist by any stretch of the imagination.
>>127918832Anything for $18-$20
I wish more pianists added some tasteful ornamentation to their Bach.
>>127920317Bach is already fairly baroque
>>127920246>Romanticism is the highest peak that music was able to reach in terms of harmonyBach>Romanticism is the highest peak that music was able to reach in terms of formBeethoven>Fantaisie-Impromptu is not even a published piece by ChopinFair enough, the man himself did not think much of the piece.>let alone a hard piece to playNowhere near as difficult as many believe, but still upper-intermediate.>And lastly, Gould was not a real pianist by any stretch of the imagination.Estrogenic take.
>>127920246>Gould was not a real pianist by any stretch of the imagination.Actually true
>>127920414>Bach*Liszt, Wagner, Schubert, Chopin, Schumann, Beethoven etc.>BeethovenSee above.
>>127919663Barenboim with Chicago for all movements except the 4th, for which I go with Barenboim with the Staatskapelle (no one does the climax at the middle as well as this one)
>>127920432>schumann>peak of form
>>127920432sappy emo music
>>127920512Correct. Both in cyclic forms:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZZtpolrn0c&list=OLAK5uy_n9PKqbNKDs2mPIZBvj7GDjAVTVckGdKsc&index=5And cohesive, structurally balanced free sonata forms: Fantasy op.17Schumann is possibly the greatest storyteller, thus the greatest formalist, next to Wagner perhaps.There is plenty of stupidity and ignorance out there as it is, stop littering /classical/.
>>127920717Schumann's form was messy patchwork. Beethoven was obv better.
