Are Asians good at performing/interpreting Classical music?
without exception
>>127983410Seems so. Fast af fingers maybe? Is it the same reason they're good at fighting games and League of Legends? Is it genetic? So many questions!
>>127983436They’re good at copying Europeans
>>127983410some arewhat a dumb question, of course the answer is "some are" what else did you expect
>>127983410The myth is that Asian performers are technically superb but interpretively soulless, but I haven't heard enough recordings by them to confirm whether that's accurate or not.
>>127984782>myth is that Asian performers are technically superb but interpretively soullessQuestion from someone who doesn't understand music: How would this even be possible? Like, if there's a really beautiful and emotional piece of music and you perform every note with technical mastery, are you not necessarily playing it beautifully and emotionally?
>>127983410Define 'Asian'.
>>127984809Think about all the different ways one could say the word “okay”. If pitch rises the end of the word it becomes a question, if the word is drawn out and pitch drops slightly before raising again it sounds anticipatory, if the pitch rises and then falls it can sound annoyed, etc. Same thing with musical phrases and notes, except you’re shaping notes with tone (is the sound warm, metallic, bright), articulation (how long was the note, what consonant sound did the start of the note sound like, what was the decay of the note), dynamic (tone + decibel level), and tempo (performer might choose to slow down part of a measure for emphasis and then speed up the rest of the measure to regain the “lost” time). You can play all the notes correctly and still play with very little expression.
>>127984809No, that's not necessarily enough, and sometimes it's not even close. At least to the trained ear. The work of art exists in the notation, but on its own it's just a bunch of notes and instructions. You need a performer to bring it to life. From listening to many recordings and concerts/recitals, I can usually immediately tell if a performer truly understands a composer or has a unique personality. Some composers are much easier to understand than others. For piano music, guys like Mozart and Beethoven are relatively straightforward, but someone like Scriabin is far more elusive. I've heard players either blur everything and rush, or simply pound away at the keyboard, and the music in that case made no sense.There's also the question of how faithful you want to be to the score and the composer, or whether you want to take more interpretive freedom. The hardest thing in performing a classical piece is structure, i.e. to create a coherent, long-range arc. You can play every bar perfectly, but if those bars don't connect into a logical, compelling narrative that keeps the listener engaged, the result is usually just flat. If perfect literal accuracy were enough, a MIDI playback would do, but it doesn't. The score's instructions are never complete either: you need rubato, agogics, dynamics and subtle shaping to keep the structure alive and not fall apart.You also need an understanding of the composer's style and performance practice if you want to be "authentic". Or you can play in an unorthodox way, if you have a really strong playing personality and vision that can make it convincing. Some people dislike that approach, but I think it can work it's done well. All of this matters most in complex, long works, not small pieces like Fur Elise or simple practice stuff, obviously.
>>127984883I forgot to finish the analogy comparing language with music. One could speak a sentence with zero inflection and it would sound “lifeless”. Similarly, one could play a melody with zero difference in tone, tempo, dynamic, or articulation and it would sound flat and lifeless.
>>127984151Only a low iq retard doesn't undersrand statisticsProportionally, they exhibit greater aptitude, which is evidenced in reality by their significantly higher representation compared to any other groupOnly a retard says, when 80% of a reality is evident, "well, not always, I know exceptions.";Exceptions prove the rule; they don’t disprove the documented reality. Of course not ALL of them are good, that's not what he's saying
>>127984955>aptitude supported by higher representationHigher representation could potentially be attributed to the cultural embrace of classical music by China starting in the 19th century. You’re crossing correlation with causation.
Isn't it interesting that ever since Asians have flooded into classical music it's totally died? Classical music is inherently White, Asians can definitely perform it just fine but it's just a copy of what we've already done.
>>127984955If they have greater musical aptitude then why are they so underrepresented in musical innovation?
>>127985048Classical music isn’t dead. It was the pop music of its time and established western tonality. This tonality was embraced by bebop, jazz and all offshoot genres. One could argue that classical music just fused with other genres and is still represented in today’s pop music (basic chord progressions and tonality all codified in classical music theory). Music just continues to change due to the audience and outside influences.
>>127985143Reddit is down the hall and to the left
>>127985048classical is not dead and you will never be good at larping as le sophisticated haydn appreciator saying ignorant tourist gibberish
>>127985157If classical isn't dead then why are most of the pieces played at orchestras from 100+ years ago? Classical may not be dead but it is calcified, which is almost worse in some ways. >haydnI don't listen to Haydn lol.
>>127984955they have discipline and technical aptitude but seem to struggle more with interpretation/expression has asia produced any true greats so far
>>127985176There’s new music coming out all the time. I’ve played a lot of new orchestral compositions. You could even call some Louis Cole compositions for orchestra classical.
>>127985215Nobody listens to it except the insular audience for contemporary classical. It's a navel-gazing genre.
>>127985150Enjoy larping as a classical musician.
>>127985250I'm not a classical musician. I'm just someone that listens to classical.
>>127985230Incorrect. Orchestras program new works alongside classics - they are in some instances required to through grants. To prove my point, I just brought up the 2025-2026 season calendar for the first orchestra I thought of - TCO. First piece in their 2025-2026 year is Urworte by Berne Richard Deutsch, a modern classical composition and US premiere at that.
>>127985265Seems like you would be interested in hearing from a professional classical musician given that.
>>127985295>Orchestras program new works alongside classicsYes, I know.>they are in some instances required to through grantsThis totally proves my point and if you can't see why you're myopic.
>>127985328Not for what I'm discussing. I won't pretend to be more skilled, or know the inner workings of the music business, or pretend I know music theory more than you, but contemporary classical is completely irrelevant in mainstream culture. That's the point I'm making.
>>127985355>Nobody listens to it>Yes, I know people listen to itIf your point is that modern classical music isn’t as popular as it used to be, then no fucking shit. It used to be the popular music genre and it is no longer that. Why did it change? Not because the Asians started studying classical music, that’s fucking stupid.
>>127983410My brother has an Asian friend who plays piano. When they tried to compose music together, the Asian couldn't come up with anything. All he knew how to do was play other people's music
>>127985410>It used to be the popular music genre and it is no longer thatAnd that's bad, because it (at least the older stuff that I listen to) is just superior music when compared to modern pop and even jazz and prog rock and such.>Not because the Asians started studying classical music, that’s fucking stupidWell not exactly, I think it's more the other way around. Asian culture is very dogmatic, they cling onto social structures that were created for a particular time, people, and reason, and treat them as their god. They're incredibly conformist, and so they glom onto something that they see as a social status symbol in White society, namely classical music in this case.
>>127985517I don’t view that as bad - why do you? We have so many classical compositions - there are thousands of amazing Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and 20th century works that aren’t mainstream. The idioms have been explored pretty thoroughly. I’m glad to take a break from Beethoven to listen to Oscar Peterson or some light pop.I can’t comment on east Asian cultures, I’m not knowledgeable about that.
>>127985657>I don’t view that as bad - why do you?Because I like classical music and I think it's sad that there's nothing to fill the space that it occupied for centuries.>I don’t view that as bad - why do you?Maybe. But how do you know others didn't say that in the early 1800s?>I can’t comment on east Asian culturesI don't hate them, I actually like them. But they're fundamentally different from White European cultures.
This is usually the part where Timmy looks away and pulls his "emotional intelligence" card to cope.
>>127985725Playing music doesn't require a high intelligence. Making great classical music does, and who does more of that?
>>127985143>It was the pop music of its timeNo, it wasn't. That's a nonsensical comparison that you couldn't explain even if you tried. Pop music is an inherently 20th and 21st century phenomenon that couldn't exist without an industrial and monetary society behind it, producing commodities for mass consumption. It functions completely different than classical music (or folk). I mean sure, you have some intersection.If you want to find a sensible comparison, there was a sort of "poppy" classical music in the 19th century; it was called "light music", i.e. less serious Western classical music. To call something like the WTK, Grosse Fuge or Verklärte Nacht "pop music of its time" is retarded. Pic related explains the differences very well and pretty much covers the vast majority of music.Classical music wasn't the pop music of its time, it was just the music of its time.
>>127985686Yeah I like classical music too - nothing will take the place of something like Beethoven Op 131. But I mean, there’s so much classical music that someone could listen to a new piece every day and die not having heard a majority of great classical compositions. Can you elaborate on what you mean by “the space” that classical music occupied? There’s tons of quality classical music still being performed, there’s just also a lot of pop music. And we’re having to wade through the shit storm of mediocre pop just like audiences had to do when classical was considered pop music.
>>127985048>Isn't it interesting that ever since Asians have flooded into classical music it's totally died?When did you think that happened? Because it doesn't seem like there's a connection at all if you know any music history.I remember reading about Puccini's Turandot and how it's "the last opera"; not literally the last one ever written, but the last big hit of the old grand opera tradition. After that, something broke: the line of development in classical music moved away from the audience and it's never really recovered.Before the 19th century, people mostly went to hear new music and there was no fixed canon. The whole idea of performing "the classics" really only took off with the Bach revival and early Romantic generation. But by the early 20th century the split became extreme. Modernism (Schoenberg and others) pushed harmony and form further and further, while audiences wanted the tonal language they already knew. At the same time recordings let listeners keep their favorite old works forever, so orchestras and opera houses didn't have to rely on new pieces.After WW2 the gap was basically permanent. Most big institutions turned into museums of the 18th and 19th centuries. A typical symphonic program today MIGHT have one new work (and often not even that), but it's surrounded by Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, etc. Opera houses mostly stage the same Mozart, Rossini, Wagner, Verdi, etc. too.Basically, no new works ever enter the core repertory and that's why it's dead. Not because of Asians.
>>127985768I’m using the word “pop” quite literally to mean “popular” music. Not pop as in the genre of popular music today you described. What I’m saying is that classical music was the popular genre of its time. Using that loose definition of pop, rock would be called pop as well. I’m referring to the prevailing tonal idioms and influences found in the music of a particular time period when I call music pop.
>>127985848I think the causality is backwards. I think classical died, but since it's still regarded as high status, Asians flooded into it.
So how many ITT are actually watching the competition?
>>127985863And classical music is just much better music than rock, pop, jazz, and whatever other popular genres have taken its popularity.
>>127985863That doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.>What I’m saying is that classical music was the popular genre of its timeIt wasn't really a genre. Opera is a genre, symphony is another, etc. Like I said, it was just the music of its time. That's it.If you think it was "the most popular genre of its time", then name other genres from that time?
>>127985883I don’t share that opinion, but whatever.
>>127985446Can your brother (?) friend (?) whatever totally real person create music that doesn't sound like random noise?
>>127985920Yeah I guess kpoop demon hunter is as good as Grosse Fuge.
>>127985926Spontaneously, no less?
>>127985881I'm aware of it but I won't be watching
>>127985911In the context of classical music, a symphony or opera is absolutely a genre - that’s a technical definition. The word genre has a different meaning in modern musical contexts. When we talk about classical music now we lump everything from after around 1600 into the same genre (modern usage). There were many popular genres (technical usage) in the 1800s, but the prevailing genre (modern usage) as we know it today is classical. Classical music does have a lot more in common with itself than with today’s popular music, so I think the oversimplification of classical music into one genre makes some sense when comparing it to today’s popular music.
>>127985927I legitimately hate that soundtrack, that’s funny you chose that. Comparing Grosse Fuge to something new like “Dead Inside Shuffle” by Louis Cole is like comparing French cuisine to American BBQ. They are both delicious and serve entirely different purposes. I like them both in different applications and for different reasons.
>>127985926He can generate only the most generic stuff imaginable. It's as if you gave a space alien a book on music theory and asked them to write music.
>>127986059Sounds based. Do they make good melodies? Link?
>>127986021Okay but also answer my question then.
>>127986048I'm gonna be honest this Louis Cole stuff seems like redditcore. Not terrible but not great.>I legitimately hate that soundtrackLol. I've heard about the movie so I decided to look up a song from it and it felt AI generated.
>>127986112Classical music was the popular genre (modern) of its time. The musical idioms used in various classical genres (trchnical) were similar within similar time periods. When I say genre, I’m using the modern definition, and by that definition classical music was the popular genre of its day. Asking what genre (technical) was the most popular in classical music is a different topic than what was being discussed. And I’m not sure what the answer to that question is, I’m sure it changed with time.
>>127986157I like it, I can understand how some people wouldn’t. Helps me unwind after work.Yeah the songs from that movie are so heavily produced they don’t feel human.
>>127984955I too like to pull statistics out of my ass
>>127986172I'm asking you to name another genre from that time. If classical was the popular genre of its day, what else was there? If you can't answer, then it's a nonsensical statement.
>>127986515Folk music, sacred music, salon music…
>>127983410
>>127985446this has nothing to do with race or geneticsits more like Asian parents typically force their kids to do a bunch of extracurricular activities, including music lessons. and for whatever reason, it has to be a classical instrument like violin or piano.Kids get forced against their will to learn to play music they dont care about: they end up playing the music without joy or passionAlso classical musicians are, to my experience, just not very proficient with improvisation. I think its the fault of the teachers who focus on rote memorization of the classics, and spend little to no time on teaching kids to actually improvise or write their own melodies
>>127986735Your last point has been my experience. There is zero emphasis on improvisation in music lessons and most conservatory courses.
>>127986621The majority of Western sacred and salon music are classical, so you can't really call that a different category. Then it's also highly debatable if classical music was more popular than folk music.
>>127986812I mean, if you're training to play as part of a symphony or orchestra, improv isn't a very useful skill I imagine. It's not like the conductor is going to appreciate you going off-sheet and throwing a dope drum solo in the middle of Clara de Lune
>>127986960Improvisation and composition are linked though
>>127986867>sacred music is classicalMaybe in the Baroque era to a degree, but certainly not starting in the Classical era - the two were pretty distinct.>salon music is classicalSalon music in the 1800s was influenced by Classical like rock is influenced by Jazz. Rock isn’t jazz though and salon music isn’t classical.>debatable if classical music was more popular than folk musicYeah - I was taught that classical music was the predominant set of musical idioms for its time, but I don’t think there’s a great way to measure this.
>>127986977surely if you're studying classical composition you will learn improvisation?Ive never been in a formal music course but I don't see how somebody could be expected to write something without "improvising" it first.
>>127986960Exactly. The focus is very narrow - I had to study orchestral excerpts two years after starting lessons because the goal for an overwhelming majority of string players is to get into a great orchestra. Improv serves no purpose on that path.
>>127983410As good as anyone else
>>127987049>overwhelming majority of string players is to get into a great orchestraI find this fascinating. Wouldn't the odds of becoming a professional player in a major orchestra be even less likely of a career goal than say, writing your own music and making it big off that?Like, how many orchestras could there possibly be and how many players could they possibly need? You'd be better off just learning to write your own music and trying to sell it.
>>127987165I don’t think so - there are conservatively 10 full-time cellists in an orchestra and roughly 20 US orchestras that pay enough to not have to be employed elsewhere while supporting a family (if your spouse works). Maybe 1-3 spots from those 20 orchestras opens up a year. So the competition is insane, but I don’t think the market would support 1-3 new classical composers each year with them making the same pay as the cellists.Then there are a lot of orchestral musicians who play in orchestras and supplement their income by teaching or gigging - a huge majority of US orchestral cellists fall into this category. I imagine you can gig as a composer, but there are probably fewer opportunities than for performers.
is it just me or is jeet classical-hindustani and carnatic, the only classical music tradition that iss as rich & complex as western classical?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjVa9zzdIBwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy2QQQEPzcEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL719S81FS0
>>127984955le autist who only understand anything through statistics has arrived
>>127984883>>127984903Just saw these replies. Thanks for explaining anons, i think I understand now (at least sort of).
I was in orchestra as a kid and the class was like 60 percent asian kids, even though school was probably 5 percent asians. They are just forced by their parents to learn that shit young (suzuki method)they are very disciplined and intelligent people. but I bet if you put black kids on the suzuki method they would be way better. You don't see a whole lot of 'self taught' asian virtuosos on insturments, you see a lot of black and white masters of instruments who just naturally gravitated to it. every asian virtuoso is a product of education, not self discovery
>>127983410Lol no. They're all forced by their tiger mums to train like robots to 'be the best' and 'get the highest scores' so their performances just end up being mechanical without any real artistry.
>>127984955>Indians have greater aptitude at playing Cricket than any other group
>>127984883>>127984903Very informative thanks. Have you met peers or seen performers over the years grow out of this malady? Or could you say it's more a function of their personality preferring a strict and straight sense of dynamics and time? Not a believer in pure genetics vs pure tabula rasa, though I find it 60/40 at the very least; but do you think this "touch" lies in the in the more nebulous realms of the innate "gift" like perfet pitch or is this an attainable pursuit like having a great sense of relative pitch?>>127985215>>127985295Louis Cole is cool, I like his work in Knower. Is there a website or aggregator for the new classical stuff?
>>127990266Myy low iq vidya analogy of it is that they dumped the stats out of harmony all into melody and rhythm. Some western instrumental musos mused that they thought their cool poly rhythmic riff was the dog's bollocks - until they went to India to find out that those ideas was drilled to them as kids, just another Tuesday.
>>127985881I'm watching
>>127983410There are billions of asians out there and they're famous for upper class aspirations and demanding parentingOf course they produce a lot of well schooled pianists. The number of professionally educated pianists in China is larger than the population of many countries.
>>127983410its not an inherent asian thing. It's simply the same pattern of learning applied. Asians learn this younger in general becuase of social norms. Music isnt some secret. Classical is basically spaced the same so its just like memorizing math
>>127983410I can't speak to the whole Asian race, but Lang Lang's interpretations are absolute garbage, despite his technical mastery.
