Is there any evidence that punk rock subculture was a CIA psy-op?We all know modern “art” and hip hop were products of the CIA. The intelligence agencies funded abstract expressionist “art” in order to combat Socialist Realism and alienate the working-class from the arts. They also funded hip hop in the 80s and 90s for the same reason: to use the black lumpen against the genuine proletariat and to stir racial divide; there’s also a very strong link between hip hop and private prisons.So is the sane true or punk? Punk promotes anarchist “anti-authoritarianism” which is simply liberalism in essence. Like hip hop, it is entirely made by and glorifies the lumpen rather than actual workers. And like hip hop, it succeeds in alienating the real working-class from music. Marxist thinkers have called punk rock fascist and have also pointed out how analogous it is to neoliberalism, in that it’s based on the same individualistic and anti-government attitudes.So what can we conclude? Is punk controlled opposition like rap? Socialist countries banned it after all.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD49vdreggw
>>128210652I’m now starting to believe tankies are infuriating retards.
>>128210652punk was just a response to the hippie movement>hippies are bad because it's just rich kids doing drugs all day playing music they aren't bringing change!the irony is that ALL of that applies to the punk movement as well
>>128210761More reason to believe the whole movement was a pay-op.>>128210713And yet “tankies” always happen to be right.
>>128210652Sex Pistols was formed (they didn't start a band themselves) to advertise a fashion/clothing shop
notthisshitagain.jpg
>>128210652If only there were any clues.
Stewart Copeland (drummer from the Police)'s dad was unironically the head of the CIA. Literally every single punk and post-punk band between 1977 and 1985 was discovered and pushed by them.
Why do tankies believe every single alternative subculture that doesn’t revolve around Stalin-worship and/or white guy workerim must be “CIA”?
>>128211189Interesting.
the entire 20th century was a lie, also the late 80s and early 90s rave culture was created by the tavistock institute t. knower
>>128212281Would explain a lot given the CIA’s history of drug trafficking, and how the rave scene was basically one big ecstasy binge.
>>128211034this is pretty inspired
>>128210652Why should I care about what satisfies the “real working class” when it comes to music and art?
>>128210761Aren’t hippies also fascist?
>>128210652Keep this shit in /leftypol/.
some government organization, whether it is the cia or not, controls the culture of this country
>>128213608well they have been doing a pretty shit job since the 2010s started. leting rock die, poptimism, bland country music and generic slut pop
>>128213659if the people want rock to die, they aren't going to make rock popular again by themselves, nor would they probably even want to
>>128213669The real reason rock died is because it’s more profitable for a label to sign and promote a single pop star or rapper than an entire four-piece band. It’s the same reason you never see R&B groups anymore either.
>>128213677and who controls what is profitable and how much profit various activities make? it's deeper than that
>>128213689You want me to say “Jews”, right? Because everything is a conspiracy, right?
>>128213677the weekend, bruno mars, and frank ocean were very popular in the 2010s. your idiot logic rests on rock being to expensive when country music uses the same instruments and are usually involved with bandsfucking hate that hot take "hurrr rock too expensive"
>>128213700no, i don't. that doesn't seem like an honest answer. but you have to recognize that you don't control everything about this world, this system that you live in
>>128213703I said R&B groups, not individual performers.
>>128213703Country artists use studio musicians, idiot. Very few full-fledged bands become popular anymore.
>>128213726you still cant answer why rock died and country music is allowed to still be popular.
i wish you'd be banished back to leftypol guthriefag
Go listen to The Village Fugs and The Godz if you really want 'avant-garde' retarded commie folk punk lower east side of new york beatnik faggot.
>>128210901Yup. They were arranged exactly like a boy band.
>>128213703Country music is mostly MAGA-coded bullshit nowadays.
>>128210652Hardcore and Punk are/were good, but i believe the only time the CIA got involved was during Revolution Summer.
>>128210788Not really. A lot of Tankies are still playing the lesser of two evils dichotomy. The answer is a secret third thing.
>>128210652>So what can we conclude? Is punk controlled opposition like rap? Socialist countries banned it after all.Yeah the CIA invented punk music so you would hate communism and glorious leader Yuri Andropov.https://youtu.be/FIyL8ti3SME
>>128213751>i wish you'd be banished back to leftypol guthriefagTankie music is like Redgum. Or like that "Rich Men North of Richmond" song. My version of hell.
>>128210652You dropped your tinfoil hat, OP.
If anything was a CIA psyop it was ABBA and shit like that
>>128213024>everything is fascistThis is why nobody takes you liberals seriously anymore btw
>>128210761that wasn’t why it started it was>hippies are playing gay long meandering shitty songs, let’s make cool songs like the songs we listened to as kids but with an edgeRamones invented punk. Sex Pistols and their political bullshit was manufactured by a guy trying to sell gay leather clothes to a larger audience
>>128215683Blacks invented punk, dumbass.
>>128215743black people invented 4chan moot was a brotha
>>128212774I'm not convinced by this.
I watched a documentary on punks a while back and it confirmed my theory that punks have always been mentally ill, drug addicted, losers. The same kind of people who are out there shooting up in front of elementary schools and just being generally obnoxious fags, I still like some punk bands thoughbeit.
>>128213747Country music continued getting pushed longer than rock music because the audience for country music never shrank the way it did for rock music. In fact, the rise of streaming platforms and the proliferation of high speed internet means now that audience is far more visible and more integrated than ever before. Also, notice how country music is structures a lot like pop music, where you have a huge crop on manufactured solo artists singing songs that were probably penned by (or with help from) professional songwriters. It's easier to market a single person than a group of people, and it's cheaper to pay that single person when they aren't collecting songwriting royalties. The session musicians you see playing at a country music concert are as faceless as the dancers on stage at a pop concert.
>>128212310They've been chemically lobotomizing the youth via "counterculture" since at least the 60's.
>>128210652>Is there any evidence that punk rock subculture was a CIA psy-op?The only evidence that would exist is if internal documents from the CIA were declassified which showed them covertly funding punk bands, labels, and venues. Until then, your assertions are bullshit.
>>128216006>covertly funding punk bands, labels, and venues.*and radio stations
>>128210652Ah, fuck off, even the russians claimed they came up with punk rock to destabilize the west.
>>128210901>>128213771Yet they played their own music with lyrics by Johnny
>>128216345>punk radio stationsbruh
>>128210652What kind of commie bullshit is this?
>>128210652It was a MI6 psy op
>>128216983Explain
>>128210652Why would the CIA care about punk rock?
Read the book Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon. It's mostly about the 60s and how the hippie peace and love movement was a complete and utter psyop from top to bottom trying to paint Vietnam War protesters in a bad light. The war protest movement was legitimate and mostly populated by middle class normies and college professors, so they had to subvert it by throwing stinky hippies in the mix to discredit it. So the logic was>Gee I don't want my neighbors to think I'm a dirty hippie that does drugs, so supporting the war can't be that bad. You will come out from reading it basically never wanting to listen to boomer 60s music ever again, because quite literally all of them were industry plants.There's only a small chapter at the end devoted to how punk was similarly a psyop, but that was because the author planned to fully flesh it out in an entire book of its own, that's how much info there was on it. But of course he died before completing it, totally organic and natural I'm sure.
>>128218011How was punk a psy-op exactly? And what was the purpose behind it?
I love these types of conspiracies because they just strip people of any and all creative agency and imply that shit like punk rock could only have been made by some suits at the CIA. You're shortselling artists while giving the CIA way too much credit. You think that the government was more likely to found a genre and art movement than people simply doing it themselves
>>128218011Shit, I fucked up the greentext but you get the idea.
>>128218016There's two theories I have. 1. Much like how communism was created by the elites in order to lead the workers down a path of red herrings so no legitimate actual change happens, punk was created for the same reasons. Punk music is crafted to be a cathartic release of anger and energy. So the idea is, you listen to punk music and go to a punk show and yell "FUCK THE QUEEN" for an hour or two, get it out of your system, and then go back to your wage slave job on Monday, but your life still sucks. It was specifically designed as a sort of Orwellian Two Minutes Hate type cathartic outlet.The other possibility is 2. It was a response to the actual popular music of the time. Psychedelic and prog music dominated the 60s and 70s. This type of music expands your mind, makes you smarter, and this utterly terrified the elites. Listening to stuff like Close to the Edge unironically raises your IQ by about 20 points probably. So they had to shut it down and dumb music down again to simple three chord shit so people get back down to the material plane and stop thinking on a cosmic level. This is also why trance music's popularity was shut down in the 90s. It was about to become the most popular genre of music in the world but they spread propaganda that you are a loser if you "listen to techno," here, listen to some nihilistic depressing nu metal instead.But ultimately, I suspect the real reason is a combination of both reasons.
>>128218011>You will come out from reading it basically never wanting to listen to boomer 60s music ever again, because quite literally all of them were industry plants.Kek!!!
>>128218011This sounds like a Lyndon LaRouche conspiracy theory.
>>128218085He was right about basically everything too, so makes sense.
>>128218016>>128218067Uncle Ted wrote well about it in his essay So, in a nutshell, the System's neatest trick is this:For the sake of its own efficiency and security, the System needs to bring about deep and radical social changes to match the changed conditions resulting from technological progress.The frustration of life under the circumstances imposed by the System leads to rebellious impulses.Rebellious impulses are co-opted by the System in the service of the social changes it requires; activists "rebel" against the old and outmoded values that are no longer of use to the System and in favor of the new values that the System needs us to accept.In this way rebellious impulses, which otherwise might have been dangerous to the System, are given an outlet that is not only harmless to the System, but useful to it.Much of the public resentment resulting from the imposition of social changes is drawn away from the System and its institutions and is directed instead at the radicals who spearhead the social changes.Of course, this trick was not planned in advance by the System's leaders, who are not conscious of having played a trick at all. The way it works is something like this:In deciding what position to take on any issue, the editors, publishers, and owners of the media must consciously or unconsciously balance several factors. They must consider how their readers or viewers will react to what they print or broadcast about the issue, they must consider how their advertisers, their peers in the media, and other powerful persons will react, and they must consider the effect on the security of the System of what they print or broadcast.
>>128218304These practical considerations will usually outweigh whatever personal feelings they may have about the issue. The personal feelings of the media leaders, their advertisers, and other powerful persons are varied. They may be liberal or conservative, religious or atheistic. The only universal common ground among the leaders is their commitment to the System, its security, and its power. Therefore, within the limits imposed by what the public is willing to accept, the principal factor determining the attitudes propagated by the media is a rough consensus of opinion among the media leaders and other powerful people as to what is good for the System.Thus, when an editor or other media leader sets out to decide what attitude to take toward a movement or a cause, his first thought is whether the movement includes anything that is good or bad for the System. Maybe he tells himself that his decision is based on moral, philosophical, or religious grounds, but it is an observable fact that in practice the security of the System takes precedence over all other factors in determining the attitude of the media.
>>128218304None of this means punk was CIA.
>>128210652>We all know modern “art” and hip hop were products of the CIAOh you are on the right track>alienate the working-class from the arts>to use the black lumpen against the genuine proletariat and to stir racial divideNVM it's a retarded golem
>>128210713>tankiesYou don't have to be a communist to acknowledge that the Congress for Freedom (CIA) actively sponsored art movements and artists. I bet you're one of those "let people enjoy things" gullible idiots.
>>128218017>Imagine saying this for free
>>128221135How many of those artists knew the CIA was funding them?
>>128215683Sheeena is a punk rocker Sheeeena is a ounk rocker Sheeena is a punk rocker noooooow
>>128215743Blacks invented low trust societies
>>128210652>anarchist “anti-authoritarianism” which is simply liberalism in essenceYou are an idiot
>>128221382It’s a typical tankie talking point.
>>128221390Tankies are idiots so it makes sense they can just mental gymnastics their way through this and ignore reality
>>128210901Meaning, they weren’t started by the intelligence agencies.
Sex Pistols are not the best or even honestly a good example of punk music or especially punk ethos, I suppose if they’re the only punk band you’ve heard of and maybe Ramones then that would explain some of the stupid opinions itt fucking zoomers
>>128213987>The answer is a secret third thing
>>128211189Wtf it's real
>>128221382>>128221390>>128221459Hello Anarkiddies :)Sorry, but the immortal science of marxism-leninism is winning
Yes! In fact, non-socialist music and art themselves are a bourgeois CIA conspiracy. The only music we need are Soviet military anthems and the only art we need are paintings of incredibly buff white male workers smashing hammers under portraits of Lenin.
>chud pretending to be a tankie to own the libs
>>128222407Chuds and tankies have quite a few things in common, like support for Russia and hate for Israel
>>128222394I say thisHAIL MAOHAIL STALIN
>>128222525All my niggas tankies nigga slava Stalin
>>128210652>DAE modern art is CIA?>le soviet le realism (as if soviets didn't also make very abstract art as well)>DAE rap is crap?>DAE blacks are lumpens unlike true white proletarians?>DAE rap/punk is actually fascist?>DAE any aesthetic trend i personally dislike is fascist?But frankly that doesn't offend me as much as:>”So is the sane true or punk?"Learn how to fucking spell you illiterate fuckhead. You are the real lumpen here with such subpar language skills.
>>128222460Chuds support Israel though, they want everyone Jew and brown (Arabs in this case) to kill each other. It’s not proper chuddish to not cheer on fellow ethno-nationalists
>>128222901Rap is fascist because it promotes elite and Nietzschean values. Today’s rappers are the modern-day aristocracy.
>>128223190It’s fascist af if you change the meaning of fascism to a new meaning, so you’re probably right in your own opinion but you’re also operating outside of objective reality so
And what kind of music has Marxism-Leninism created?
>>128218085It is. LaRouche was into classical music but also the particular composers he liked and everything else was evil. Of course in his version, the CIA and KGB were probably supposed to be in cahoots in his paranoid vision of the world as well, so you could simultaneously buy into the theory from the far left or far right.Anyhow, I think people with really authoritarian ideas about how the world should be can get into classical music because they see themselves in the composer, and they see everyone else following their instructions exactly to the letter. They don't like things that are too chaotic or improvisational.
>>128223512Interesting how LaRoucheite thought is so reminiscent of anti-Soviet Trotskyism
>>128223420VIKTOR TSOI
>>128210652Punk was never mainstream in the USA, so I don't believe the CIA were involved. It might've been an mi5 psyop but I highly doubt that.Now the 60s counterculture, 100% there was CIA involvement.
>>128223924I just don’t get why the CIA or MI5 would prop up punk of all things. What purpose did it serve?
>>128224045Safe rebellion
>>128223851He was originally one in the 50s and 60s.Some of this stuff on the far left is kind of interesting to think about ideologically because you'll have some people in that scene reject a lot of modern culture because it was all created by the CIA to have kids do fake revolution instead of real revolution (whatever that is), so that leads them to embrace social conservatism, because presumably if people could only hear the sound of chuch bells then they would overthrow capitalism? I dunno. The OP linked to a video by Caleb Maupin who has both worked for Russian state media and dresses like a priest / Dr. Evil / a Moonie etc.
>>128224084Maybe sterilised pop punk later on or maybe some stuff like (but not actually) RATM where everyone just shouts a lot and gets sore throats
>>128224084And how is punk “safer” than Woodie Guthrie tankie shit?
>>128224365NTA, but the smarter, more well-read tankies will tell you it has to do with the Hegelian universal vs. the particular. Folk music about the toils of “the worker” is universalist, since “the worker” can be anyone, and according to Marx it is “the worker” who is the historical subject who ends history, e.g. socialist revolution can only come about through a proletarian subject. Whereas, punk and hip hop privilege the particular (in this case, the lumpen) over the universal. If something isn’t universally true it cannot be truth, hence the hatred of punk and hip hop from their perspective.
>>128224294Caleb Maupin sounds more like a Calvinist preacher than a Marxist now DESU.
>>128224560I'd tell them that the proletariat is universal in that by abolishing itself (and its opposite, the bourgeoisie) it abolishes the class system as such. That's the sense in which the proletariat is universal. So, therefore, the revolution will also abolish all that folk hero-worship music about the wage-labor struggle by rendering it meaningless.
>>128218011>you will come out from reading it basically never wanting to listen to boomer 60s music ever again, because quite literally all of them were industry plants.God that's the truthI went through a big 60s folk phase, then looked into the musicians personal lives
>>128218067LMAO
>>128224560So music has to appeal to white guys driving tractors in order for it to be “truth”? What the hell?
>>128224823I mean, most of the mainstream music that existed in the USSR during its “glory days” was orchestral music glorifying the Soviet military.You would think that music and art under socialism would see an explosion of creativity and artistic innovation due to not being held down by the profit motive and predatory labels and such. But in actuality, the Eastern Bloc countries were highly conservative when it came to the arts, largely because they functioned on the same economistic/producerist logic as capitalist countries. Plus, they were fairly authoritarian given that they were constantly paranoid about being overthrown by the West, so music and art was tightly controlled. Shostakovich was literally composing with an NKVD gun pointed to his head.
>>128224560>>128224823So Black people cant be proletarian like white workers? Please. Blacks and Latinos make up the lion’s share of workers in modern America.
I do find it interesting that specific punk-associated groups like the SHARPs (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) have been exposed as feds. SHARPs co-founder Michael Salonius was exposed as an FBI informant by his own former allies a while ago. Whether or not the feds were producing the actual music, they were certainly shaping the way it was distributed.
>>128225580Black folks in the ghetto basically function identical to colonized peoples in the Third World, whereby their main goal is to have sustainable development and political autonomy, not abolition of the present state of conditions. This is why American Blacks worship Beyoncé, Jay-Z, Rihanna, Oprah, and Obama. Blacks still heavily defended Diddy during his trial and they still by and large defend Kanye despite Ye being a nefarious autistic Nazi now. It’s actually highly reminiscent of Mao getting friendly with the petit bourgeois (and eventually the national bourgeoisie, to the point that today you have Chinaboos praising the CPC for crushing labour unions and ensuring a profitable export economy). But anyway, like the Third World, Black ghettos do not and cannot have communism because their productive forces are not developed enough. Go look at modern Detroit, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New Orleans, etc. if you need an example. Hell, go look at Michael Jackson’s (and Freddie Gibbs’) hometown of Gary, Indiana if you want the perfect example: the town’s 85% Black residents aren’t interested in socialism, they’re interested in bringing back productive jobs that can feed a family of five on a single income.So yes, in that regard, tankies would argue hip hop and Black culture in general is anti-worker.
>>128210652There's no there there to any CIA conspiracy stuff, that's all pseud blather from useless eaters who belong in the field and not anywhere near a computer or access to the internet
>>128225789>So yes, in that regard, tankies would argue hip hop and Black culture in general is anti-worker.Pretty hilarious given that Black folks are the only group of people in America who have been consistently radical.
>>128211189>Literally every single punk and post-punk band between 1977 and 1985 was discovered and pushed by themthis part is bullshit though, what are you talking about?for instance, I've never seen any ties between the Sex Pistols and The Police, The Ramones and The Police, etc. especially in terms of "discovering" them
>>128226146I mean yeah, but you have to look at it from tankies’ perspective. They want everything subordinated to “the factory”, so while it is true that Black people have been very radical and revolutionary, tankies would argue that having the “right ideas” isn’t enough to build the productive forces and move said nation to socialism/communism.
>>128210713That’s not where this thread and all the lame jokes within are coming from… it’s zoomers with room temperature IQ’s who saw the spammed doors threads and actually thought it was a meme and not just one retard spamming.
>>128225487>I mean, most of the mainstream music that existed in the USSR during its “glory days” was orchestral music glorifying the Soviet military.I've seen some old Soviet programs and it was like a mix of that and soft-pop stuff on variety shows. Alla Pugacheva is the most famous one I can think of from the 1970s. (Still around, she left Russia recently and was branded a "foreign agent" for opposing the war.) A Russian acquiantance made a joke that Brezhnev will be remembered as a minor political figure from the Pugacheva era. One of her big hits was remixed into an electronic rock song in Atomic Heart:https://youtu.be/XlAul6spLkA>You would think that music and art under socialism would see an explosion of creativity and artistic innovation due to not being held down by the profit motive and predatory labels and such. But in actuality, the Eastern Bloc countries were highly conservative when it came to the arts ... Plus, they were fairly authoritarian given that they were constantly paranoid about being overthrown by the West, so music and art was tightly controlled. I think it's because of the monopolization of everything. It was a single party that comprised a few percentage points of the population, and they exercised a dictatorship over the politics, the economy, and also attempted to do so in the realm of ideas. There was an official ideology called Marxism-Leninism so arts or social sciences or philosophy had to conform to the ideology. But what happens in such a situation is that any new ideas are automatically perceived as a threat. Anyhow, fast forward to today, and the Russian government has careened into another repressive state, and there's not much to talk about when it comes to music. It's also happened in Belarus. Molchat Doma is an interesting band from Belarus but they oppose the Belarusian government and live abroad.
>>128226146>Pretty hilarious given that Black folks are the only group of people in America who have been consistently radical.True. Well in their case I think it comes from being poor, being treated badly and having little to lose, and being more willing to openly confront the authorities when they feel like their backs are up against the wall. A lot of their demands in American history have not been that radical, but they were resisted by force (getting shot at by the cops etc.), so it toughened them up, and the radicalism has operated on an ethno-communal basis (which doesn't preclude alliances but it has made it difficult to form alliances). But really, to be radical to some extent requires a willingness to go to prison.>>128226314>I mean yeah, but you have to look at it from tankies’ perspective. They want everything subordinated to “the factory”, so while it is true that Black people have been very radical and revolutionary, tankies would argue that having the “right ideas” isn’t enough to build the productive forces and move said nation to socialism/communism.The one time I volunteered at a picket line, it was at a largely black auto plant. At any rate, I think the reality is that the tankies don't really believe in revolution like their communist ancestors in the 1930s did (who also worked at factories). It's more of a social media generated phenomenon by "petit-bourgeois intellectuals." They should go work at factories if they think "the factory" is everything. There are plenty of factory jobs. There's a half-million unfilled manufacturing jobs in the U.S. right now.
>>128224294>>128224639https://youtube.com/watch?v=n2DWa8fCFBkAutism galore.
>>128210652Buzzcocks at the least were legit
>>128226748No offense but you sound like a retarded nigger faggot.
>>128227002No I'm only two out of three of those things.
>>128218067>The other possibility is>2. It was a response to the actual popular music of the time. Psychedelic and prog music dominated the 60s and 70s.This is closer to the matter. Modern life and tech makes it inevitable that each generation will kick back against their immediate forebears in order to make their own name and identity for themselves, at least at the start. What's missing is the political and economic elements, and how the reaction to the hippies and prog was just as much a matter of looking around and seeing that their immediate achievements were meager or naive.>This type of music expands your mind, makes you smarter, and this utterly terrified the elites. Listening to stuff like Close to the Edge unironically raises your IQ by about 20 points probably. So they had to shut it down and dumb music down again to simple three chord shit so people get back down to the material plane and stop thinking on a cosmic level.Questionable, dumb, and there's no reasoning filling in why the guvs would promote music meant to dumb down, not to mention that as an explanation it has to ignore the regular harassment of these groups by the police to keep them from playing or even to fuck with them for the hell of it. Only modern media and information makes these marginal groups out to be bigger than they were.
>>128224294>>128224639Oh yes, I remember this guy. He lost a debate to Mike Enoch and Eric Striker:https://youtu.be/WomGl4x_Y9c
This is why the whole Throbbing Gristle bloodline of groups is better than their punk contemporaries. Family Man is a good album ig.
>>128210652People say this but most of the OGs were the real deal. I'm talking the proto-punkers and some of the lesser known punk bands like Pure Hell. Fuck it even the Post-Hardcore scene had better music and ideology than the hardcore scene. I rather listen to Saccharine Trust and talk to Joe Baiza than even be in the same room as any member of The Clash
>>128210652>Is punk controlled opposition like rap?How is rap controlled by the CIA, exactly?
>>128218067Close to the Edge sucks and is overrated. Next time use some real Avant Prog or RIO that was actually suppressed by the music industry.
>>128227267He's a literal meme.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbShoHGbG_ghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3BMe6J3zQwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO6U1cbciAIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQbv0_ogOFE
>>128226885Interesting how the America-Russia land bridge thing is something directly taken from Lyndon LaRouche.
>>128210652Didn't East Germany imprison punks?
>>128226267Like I said in another post, the guy who wrote Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon apparently uncovered a paper trail that proved the Copeland family was basically behind punk and engineered its entire ethos from its beginning. Every single cool and hip indie label were actually owned and operated by operations center record label owned by the Copelands, so by middle men it is possible to say that you only got popular or signed if you made music that was approved, dressed and acted in ways that were approved.Of course he coincidentally """""died at a young age""""" so the book was never written.
>>128210788>And yet “tankies” always happen to be right.Marx lived before electricity or indoor plumbing in a time when a steam ship was the fastest means of transportation, he can't offer you any answers to today's problems. He couldn't even predict the early 20th century.
>>128231961sounds very unfalsifiable
>>128229524Yes
>>128225789Literally how they dont even work, they are mantained by foodie stamps, its literally a money sink
>>128225242classist snobbery will only hold you back
>>128234353What do you mean?
>>128225789>Black ghettos do not and cannot have communism because their productive forces are not developed enough.They have the same productive forces as everyone else in the city. They work in the same factories.
>>128218016To turn us into animals.https://youtube.com/watch?v=v9guw6McwbkStripping away beauty in society strips away at the solidarity working people have with each other, because if you’re surrounded by nothing but ugliness you start seeing the world as nothing but ugly and you start losing faith in your fellow man.Academic elites push hip hop and punk for exactly this reason.
>>128210652The FBI led a 2 year investigation into Louie Louie and that's the first punk/proto punk song. So the feds have been aware of punk since the beginning and probably had agents embedded.
>>128235735This. Commies should care about beauty if they want to create a worker-oriented society.
>>128234353So you need to appeal to working-class whites but not working-class blacks?
>>128235735>https://youtube.com/watch?v=v9guw6McwbkLiterally a zillionaire oil heiress and luxury fashion aesthete. Which, okay, that's fine but we're getting kind of removed from communism here. More this:https://youtu.be/1LAZR3gK_uw
>>128210652>Is there any evidence that punk rock subculture was a CIA psy-op?Did the voices in your head made that claim?>We all know modern “art” and hip hop were products of the CIAScratch that, I got my answer.
>>128210713The OP is obviously a varg-tier rightwinger, as are you
>>128210652>We all know modern “art” and hip hop were products of the CIAThe CIA didn't invent either, dummy.
>>128211189Stewart's Copeland's dad was a cia agent/"embassy attaché" in england. And they did not "discover every band after that", are you 12 years old?
>>128215671Again, like you, the anon to whom you replied is a rightwinger. You can basically tell who a rightwinger is by the psychedelically warped sense and knowledge of history they convey. Broad generalisations, logical leaps and "facts" that just spring up from nowhere.
>>128216006Not him, I am the guy bashing the rightwingers here, one doesn't need DEFINITE WRITTEN PROOF to spot a provocation, as long as you know history and can evaluate interests objectively (obviously the idiots in this thread can't, even though they think they can)
>>128237313OP is clearly a Marxist-Leninist.
>>128221565Ok retard
>>128225242>>128236563A lot of arguments people have online about appealing to people through the sneaky use of symbols or musical language or some package of aesthetics are relatively delusional or perhaps childish. The issue isn't the symbols or fashion (which is just fashion) but an inability to convey how one's own fringe group will deliver material benefits to people. That's hard to do so it's easier to view people as stupid cattle who are just "brainwashed" and you can use a cheat code to get around one's problem when they've probably been avoiding them them for a good reason.People might be stupid but they're not that hamster-tier stupid. To whatever extent a lot of people have been pushed away from being communists due to propaganda, the reality is that most people advocate for political movements that serve their OWN interests. That's actually a core aspect of Marxism and historical materialism. Following on from that, most conservatives are conservatives because it's in their interest to preserve their status in society.
>>128222407>>128216389Undwrrated comments
>>128225789I see that image and immediately Grandmaster Caz and the South Bronx Subway rap starts playing
>>128231961You do know that the Police weren't a punk band, right?
>>128225789The teleology here is off the fucking charts.
>>128231978He very well was living during an era where radical and rapid changes were taking place, he saw how mechanisation and political changes were going hand in hand, surely you now can see the parallels in our era. Marx was so radical they had to incorporate his concepts into academia to strip them from any context and to gain validity.
>>128237545Of course they were. They were just a punk band that happened to know how to play their instruments, so it hid this fact a bit. Even if they weren't, "new wave" is just another way of saying they are a new type of rock band that is aesthetically different from earlier rock bands' subject matter of drinking whiskey and fucking groupies, so in that sense, the Police were part of an ideological shift in rock music, which at the very least can hint at the possibility that this shift was potentially manufactured in some way.Also, the Police's chosen genre of music is completely irrelevant to the theory itself.
>>128237462People need to figure out why they aren’t communists
>>128236563correct.
>>128231978Marxists are basically religious nutjobs I wouldn't waste your time.
>>128237708>earlier rock bands' subject matter of drinking whiskey and fucking groupiesHave you ever listened to any of the "earlier rock" bands?
>>128224560What about the fact most workers in America today are Mexican/Hispanic? Shouldn’t “proletarian” popular culture appeal to them first?
>>128238475Yes probably way more than you sadly.
>>128239076Nah, doubt itAnd you are younger than me.
>>128237548>teleologyHow? It's true that nearly every "socialist" revolution in the Third World/formerly colonized countries deteriorated into bourgeois nationalist revolutions very quickly. Vietnam is a sweatshop hell. North Korea is virtually fascist. Cuba was always a Soviet client state. Nearly all decolonization revolutions were simply nationalist. That's why India, Algeria, Kenya, etc. are fully capitalist. They wouldn't have been able to establish socialism anyway given underdevelopment.
>>128238696it does, more hispanics are assimilated than you realize
>>128210652What makes you think most punks and innovators of punk rock weren't working-class themselves?
>>128210652I sorta agree and disagree at the same time. I feel like it was it's own independent movement at first, but THEN got picked up by the CIA once it started getting popular and shit, and that would also mean that the subcultures associated with punk are also controlled by the CIA in some way.But that's just my take on it. Maybe I'm just schizo-posting, idfk, I'm not into conspiracy theories that much but It's interesting to think about lol
>>128240121Because they weren't pro-Soviet or something.
>>128240679Not to be rude, but weren't the soviets like a communist party that hated the working class? (can't remember though)
>>128240244People attribute too much power to the CIA. The CIA is also full of square, establishment normie sort of people. So yeah, they probably like The Beatles and stuff like that, but they're not that mysterious. They have podcasts when they retire from being active agency people to head up think tanks which are basically public-facing cutouts for the CIA.
>>128241290Eh, I guess you're right about that lolActually now that I think about it, it sounds more like something the FBI would do
>>128241290>>128241328The CIA is hilariously incompetent. They bungle just as many operations as they successfully carry out. We're talking about an organization that spent millions of dollars to insert a camera and microphone into a cat in order to spy on the commies, only for the cat to get hit by a car and die FFS. I'm not saying they haven't done a lot of dirty shit (just ask a Guatemalan, Indonesian, Chilean, or Nicaraguan), but idea that the CIA are some kind of grand puppet wizards is laughable.
>>128210652>We all know modern “art” and hip hop were products of the CIA.It wasn't just abstract expressionism (think: Jackson Pollock) that was CIA-funded. They funded American artists generally on the basis of portraying the US as a more culturally open place.
>>128242321Damn, that's fucked up
>>128240736read Animal Farm by George Orwell. It’s an allegory of the early Soviet Union, short read and it’s good and easy
>>128242377I actually did a while ago, I thought the book was pretty good too. >fucked up ending though
>>128242321>>128242347>They funded American artists generally on the basis of portraying the US as a more culturally open place.This is a bit misleading, they didn't "fund artists" since that would imply that they were the ones commissioning artwork, rather, the State Department sponsored existing artists based on their existing works because they felt like they were good examples of America's avant garde art culture that they wanted to show off and present to the rest of the world. One notable example is The Dave Brubeck Quartet's 1958 tour of Europe and Asia which was the direct inspiration for Take Five, one of the greatest jazz pieces of the 20th century. The CIA didn't create The Dave Brubeck Quartet or had any direct say in the creation of any of their music of Take Five, they simply sponsored them
>>128242475It should also be noted that this isn't even exclusive to the US, other countries like Japan and Korea have similar government sponsorship programs to foster domestic art
>>128242429Yeah cool so I think the thing is that the pigs that take over were never really interested in the ideals of the collective they just used it as cover whilst they took over themselves
>>128242489Every government on earth funds the arts. That's why I don't get these people who say shit like: "Kendrick Lamar/Chappell Roan/some other artist is being funded by USAID!!!". Literally every single government is giving grants to record labels, concert venues, art museums/exhibits, and whatever. In fact, the US is quite pathetic when it comes to how much money it gives the arts compared to other countries.
>>12821065280% of workers are lumpen sorry
