Where does she rank all time among pop songwriters?
dead last because she hasn't written shit
>>130470409Betty, Ivy, Style, All Too Well, You Are in Love etc.
>>130470409you know she was a professional songwriter at 14 before she had a music career?
>>130470388I can't think of a single lyrically meritously artistic Taylor Swift song. When you decide to become a pop musician, you are consciously admitting you like genuine talent and will never produce a masterpiece.
>>130470409trvthnvke
>>130470388first. ahead of Sir Paul.Tay is the greatest pop songwriter of all time. Of all Time!
>>130470840The Beatles didn’t have any meritous lyrics either. If you want poetry go read poetry. And everyone likes genuine talent.
>>130470898>Sir PaulNot even the best in his own band.
>>130470409>can't call her a terrible songwriter because she hasn't actually written actuallythis is what you're going with?
>>130471274And they too have no genuinely good songs. Not Yesterday, not Hey Jude, not A Day In The Life, nothing.
>>130471074so they had a 14 year old unknown writer on payroll for no reason?
>>130470388On par with every pop writer people overrateIt's all pop slop
>>130470388most lickable asshole?
>>130471481They have at least 160 good songs.
>>130475251No. Kayleigh absolutely floors her.
>>130470388She dogshit
>I wanna snarl and show you just how disturbed this has made me>You wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me>So all you kids can sneak into my house with all the cobwebs>I'm always drunk on my own tears, isn't that what they all said?>That I'll sue you if you step on my lawn>That I'm fearsome and I'm wretched and I'm wrong>Put narcotics into all of my songs>And that's why you're still singin' alongThis reads like something a 14 year old would write, but it was written by a woman in her mid-30s
>>130471697>unknown Her dad bought everything for her, slapnuts. She's a fucking nepo baby. Imagine falling this hard for this
Most of her songs, including all of her hits, were cowritten with Aaron Dressler and Jack Antonoff.
>>130479868It do be like that
>>130479568people itt claim she hasn't actually written anything so unfortunately we can't criticize her for this garbage
>>130479595She was signed to Sony at 14 to do writing. So a company as big as Sony allows people to pay them money to put their kids on staff to write stuff?
>>130479998Yes. He literally bought her everything. Sorry you had to find out this way
>>130479969Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me? is one of only two songs on Tortured Poets Department that's exclusively credited to Swift herself. We can actually pin that one on her specifically.
>>130480036OK. Strange how even richer people can't do the same thing for their kids and nobody has achieved her success, but whatever. You definitely sound like you know how the world works so I'll take your word for it.
>>130470388No idea...maybe top 200 or so
>>130479568She mostly lost it after 2020 and lost whatever was left after 2022.
>>130470388
7th
>>130470388men like max martin and shelbeck write her songs
>>130480152Good. Glad we can close this argument with me being correct
>>130482338weird how she got popular well before she worked with those hacks
>>130482665Weird how you're hellbent on making it seem like she actually does anything besides run head first into the wall
>>130482665its obvious she doesnt write any of her music. her lyrics sound like AI
>>130478355Not bad per se, but overrated as shit for sure
>>130487274That's like calling water overrated.
>>130470388Down at the bottom next to Drake in the "carried by ghostwriters" tier.
>>130479969We can criticize her for hiring inept ghostwriters and exercising no quality control over what they hand her to sing. But ultimately, it doesn't even matter. She's cultivated a fanbase of women who are equally as narcissistic, vapid and tasteless as she is, who will gobble this dogshit up on command like it's a Michelin star meal.
>>130490612Her songs are so simple that I'm not surprised she can be solely credited on a lot of tracks. """"Songwriting"""" is basically a scam. Someone can come up with the most basic C,G, Am, F chord progression, slap some lyrics on it, then get an army of producers and arrangers to make it actually sound radio friendly and then legally call themselves songwriters.
>>130482762>>130482999>uhhhh she doesn't do anything because my friends on 4chan told me so. No I can't actually prove anything or give an argument.
>>130491127All of the artiststy in "songwriting" today is in producing. Jack Antanoff is so sought after because he can turn the same shitty pop chords into dozens of different sounding songs using old studio tricks.
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>>130491127if it's so easy then why don't you do it then?
>>130491198I am not a conventionally attractive White blonde woman with a dad who can bankroll my career. Also these "NO U" insults are boring and creative. Taylor Swift fills a niche, she's sort of a pagan goddess figure for boring middle class White girls. Her image trumps everything. I rarely hear Taylor Swift fans talk about her music, it's always about who she's dating, what she's wearing, who her friends are, etc. The quality of her music is besides the point.
>>130491270>I rarely hear Taylor Swift fans talk about her music, it's always about who she's datingTo be fair, that's all her """music""" has ever been about. Either that or bitching about the same men once she's driven them away with her BPDemon personality.
>>130491270>Also these "NO U" insults are boring and uncreative.People use the same argument when stating she doesn't do anything. They don't give any reason for their argument other than she's a woman therefore she must have men doing all the work behind the scenes even though there's tons of evidence that's not the case.
>>130491270>Also these "NO U" insults are boring and creative.Maybe you don't worth the creativity and effort you ever thought about that?
>>130491338I literally gave you a reason, foid. Her music is incredibly basic. She basically "writes" the same songs over and over and then the producer does the heavy lifting to make a track. Songs and tracks are different things. A song is just the very basic melody, which in pop music is incredibly limited. The vast majority of people believe that a song is the finished track. A producer can add layers of different instrumental tracks that stray from the melody, and even change or add notes. Record companies like this system because then they can market talentless people like Taylor Swift as though she's Joni Mitchell to idiots like you. Again this is all besides the point because her fans don't even give a fuck about her music.
>>130491392>maybe you don't worth Please use English properly
The producer is literally the real artist.
>>130491423>he producer does the heavy lifting to make a track.that's literally just the nature of pop music in general. You think Michael Jackson did lots of work too? He couldn't even play any instruments at all. It was producers making the music and he would do his own lyrics. Same as what Taylor does. Just because her stuff is "simple" doesn't mean she deosnt do anything herself.Also she got super famous well before she did pop music. Her country albums were selling 1 million+ in the first week of release and this was during peak piracy era, well before she was working with famous pop producers who did everything for her.
>>130491565Jackson came up with some interesting lyrics, could dance, and sing. Taylor has none of these things. The only thing they have in common is that both made public spectacles of their personal lives.
Taylor Swift has more in common with Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton than she does with Michael Jackson. She is also of that late 00s "era".
even 50s housewife pop people were more interesting than Swift. at least they could sing, had melodies, interesting arrangements, could cover standards, etc.
>>130491609>Jackson came up with some interesting lyrics, could dance, and sing.that's not part of the argument. Jackson's producers made the music, same with taylor. Him being able to sing and dance doesn't negate that fact and give him a free pass. The reality is every single pop artist has producers making the music with varying levels of involvement with the artist.
>>130491651No? That's understandable, modern pop songwriting owes more to punk's three chords and the truth mentality.
>>130470472I only know the one with romeo and juliet
>>130491756Yes lets dumb shit down even more
>>130491565>that's literally just the nature of pop music in general.Not all popstars are created equal, though. Prime Madonna, prime Britney, they had creative vision and taste, they pushed pop music forward into new sounds and surrounded themselves with producers who did the same. Taylor has been shitting out the same "folksy, down home" drivel about those icky moids for 20 years with zero meaningful changes and no growth as an artist or a person. She will never release a Ray of Light, a Blackout, a Velvet Rope, etc. she's just not capable of it. She, Drake, and the k-pop assembly line represent the total enshittification of pop music as an artform.
>>130491636BASED
>>130492357we're talking about writing and composing music, retard. Not what people accomplished in their careers. Britney is literally the person you are denouncing because she did not write a single lyric at all during her prime years and was the definition of a manufactured pop star carried by producers. I don't know enough about Madonna to make a judgement on her.
>>130491663>that's not part of the argumentIT IS because Michael Jackson was not promoted by his record company as a songwriter, but as a performer. Taylor Swift markets herself as a singer/songwriter and drags an acoustic guitar on stage turned down real low to strum a couple chords so people believe she's Joan Baez. She invites this criticism of herself with these inauthentic displays and the fact that this leads her fans to have an unrealistic view of her ability as a "songwriter".
>>130492357>Prime Britney Where does this Britney revisionism come from? Britney was never anymore more than a raped Disney muppet who did what she was told until she had a meth'd out crash out.
>>130492478>we're talking about writing and composing musicAnd other popstars make up for their deficiencies in those areas by having actual taste and a vision to curate the kind of music that's made for them in interesting ways. Taylor surrounds herself with armies of ghostwriters and big-name producers just to make the same boring slop she was releasing 20 years ago. Brushing it off as "it's just pop music in general" doesn't change that Taylor sucks at it.
>>130492773pop stars all have their strenghts that makes them stand out. Taylor's strength is that she makes music that is relatable to regular girls with themes of relationship drama and she does it better than anyone else. On the surface it doesn't look like much to men or people who don't care for stuff like that but she hits the mark very well with people who do. Other artist make dance music that is good for clubs, others sing very well, other dance well, etc. Taylor does her own thing that is different from those and it works for her which is why she was selling out stadiums by her 3rd album.>Taylor surrounds herself with armies of ghostwritersthis shit again? We already went through this.
She ranks #1 to me
>>130492723>Taylor Swift markets herself as a singer/songwriterand that's what she is. You guys keep spouting how she doesn't actually do anything yet can't provide proof. Look at her 3rd album and you'll see she wrote the entire thing herself. Show men another big release by a pop star where there is nobody else credited in writing. Only one I could think of would be Prince as he did everything himself.
>>130492937I don't get why people still parrot the "she doesn't write her own songs" rhetoric when it's pretty obvious she does and credits given by her are so anyone who helped with the song gets a share, and sometimes given out of respect like Right Said Fred and George Michael
>>130492961I don't know. They can't make up their minds. They say she must write them because the lyrics are so simple and she's dumb so it must have been her, then they say she has ghost-writers because songwriting is some complex task that only men can do.
>>130492937You are being pedantic or are ESL. She is not in the same category of artist as eg. Patti Smith or Bob Dylan. She's Beyonce who pretends to play guitar.
>>130492983Like I said up thread what people think of songwriting varies. There is an American legal definitely a which has changed over time and a holistic approach that considers an entire finished track as the definitive "song".
>>130492267>Yes lets dumb shit down even morenobody's defending it just that pop music comes from an entirely different pool of ideas now than it did back then
Under the very strict legal definition of songwriting "He’s So Fine" by The Chiffons and "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison are the same song. The difference between the two is simply performance, arrangement and production.
>>130493061>Patti Smith or Bob DylanI'm not putting her in the same catagory. They were folk artists who wrote more intellectual stuff that catered to a niche audience. Taylor writes pop music that is catered to a mainstream audience. I would argue they are both hard to do because making hit pop songs is hard even if it looks easy on paper. They both cater to different audiences but they all write their own stuff which is the main arguement. Being a good songwriter doesn't just mean you have to write intellectual stuff. What matters in the end is if your intended audience approves of your work or not. Taylor plays in stadiums full of people so she found success in her work.
>>130493090yes I agree the definition is murky but my definition would be making most of the foundational elements of a song. I'm guessing taylor writes chords, lyrics, and melodies and puts together a demo, then gives it to the producers who polish it up into the finished song while making minor changes to some of the elements she came up with.
>>130493309From a strict legal standpoint, yes Taylor Swift "writes" her own music. If you believe Taylor Swift is a songwriter then you have to accept that "She's so Fine" and "My Sweet Lord" are technically the same song. The reality that what most people actually hear on a Taylor Swift album is whoever her producer is at the moment. No, pop music was not always like this. The 60s and 70s saw the fall of the Svengali producer in favor of the singer songwriter, a movement spearheaded by Dylan, Paul Simon, and Joni Mitchell. It's this authentic movement that Taylor Swift is coasting off of inauthentically for marketing purposes so that her fans can "she's not like other girls" her.
>>130493335Taylor Swift has like 3-4 core melodies that have been standard in pop music for decades and she uses over and over. The difference is the lyrics and the arrangement and production. She's is actually an awful melodist.
>>130492919This guy fucks. How many times have you gotten laid this year?
>>130493132>>130493394"He's so fine" was written by Ronald Mack. Let's give credit where it's due. I don't hear anything in common between HSF and MSL other than the chord progressions, and only in parts of the songs. They are not "the same song" to me. But I'm not a copyright lawyer. The ordeal of the copyright lawsuit inspired Harrison to write "This song".
>>130493394Pop music was different back then as it was all acoustic based instruments. Technology progressed with synths, drum machines and DAWs so the production became more complex. Also she's never once in her early career claim to be some authentic poet or anything. She wrote her own stuff, made good music, and her audience was impressed that she wrote her own stuff so they made the label themselves of her being a good writer, which she deserves. Dylan wasn't running around proclaiming himself to be a god-tier writer either, it was the media who gave him that label.
>>130493428ok and every beatles song sounds the same to me too. Do you know how stupid that sounds?
>>130493481Dylan's lyricism is a lot better than Taylor Swift's vomit which is why her musical ability is put under more scrutiny. She can't really sing, she can't dance, she's 36 and she writes like a 14 year old girl. When you actually look at her melodies, anyone with more than two braincells starts to ask questions about her popularity. The music press didn't label her a singer songwriter, Taylor Swift has explicitly been marketed as a singer songwriter by her record companies.
>>130493496>Sounds the sameOk, but your perception is not reality. Your subjective experience doesn't matter to copyright lawyers or the courts.
>>130493476>I don't hear anything in common between HSF and MSL other than the chord progressionsWhich is why no one will ever be able to unanimously agree on what a song is. Is it the melody or the fully produced track, or something in between? Should iconic guitar solos count as songwriting? Technically they do not. The legal definition doesn't match the public's perception.
>>130470388Mediocre but she's hot and has sexy legs
>>130493593I never found her attractive to be honest, she's too masculine. I can imagine the people who find her hot are the same people who are into dominatrix/femdom shit
Taylor Swift also got at just the right time during the whole tabloid era where celebrities had a certain mystique to them and suburban moms could read about their sordid love lives in People magazine. Then the Internet killed that monoculture. There will probably never be a Taylor Swift ever again. She's like the last true popstar, the last chopper out of 'Nam, which is probably why people have such an emotional attachment to her. People are nostalgic for the era of pop stars not having bi annual melt downs on Instagram. Zoomers pop stars have to do the social media grind. It's literally in their contracts now.
>>130493686I'm waiting for the day some pop star or celebrity finally says they're going to quit social media and actually go through with it
>>130493642If this is too masculine for you, you are probably just gay or an indianOr both. Usually both.
>>130493695Not possible LOL. Nothing is organic anymore. Artists need record companies more than ever to promote them which is why Sabrina Carpenter is in debt bondage to Island Records with her endless touring.
was only tolerable for the first three albums
Where did it all go so horribly wrong?
>>130493819She looks a lot better now. Without the plastic surgery she would have turned into her mother, who looks like an east German wrestler.
>>130493861oh no, not those fucking Olan Mills studio pics. every 90s kid remembers the goddamn things.
>>130493861her mom was a total dirtbag who withheld food from her unless she practiced her music
>>130493951Damn and yet she still can only strum open chords and play piano in C. A chinese mom would have hit harder.
>>130493523Taylor swift appears to women. Women like lyrics. It's that simple.
>>130494013And let's not discuss what Michael Jackson's dad would have done.
>>130493951It gets worse. She wasn't allowed to have CDs so the only music she ever heard growing up was 90s-00s top 40.
>>130494032Joe Jackson was a pretty typical stage dad for that era. There was a reason why celebrities used to be triple threats (singing, dancing, acting) it's because someone was kicking their ass in the Vaudeville fashion. The industry is a lot less abusive now, but the trade off is that celebrities kind of suck now.
she's probably the biggest musical artist currently alive. but i can't say i enjoy a single one of her songs. for some reason women are just enamoured by her. you compare her to michael jackson and i could at least enjoy michael's most popular songs, but taylor's do nothing for me.
also Teresa Brewer's mother groomed her for a music career almost as soon as she was old enough to walk and talk like some kind of proto-Swift. oldschool stage parents were mean as shit.
>>130494170Olivia Newton-John and Mariah Carey were a thing too.
what plastic surgery did she get? was it just the nose? its hard to tell because its so subtle compared to other retards who get plastic surgery/
>>130494170I have a co-worker who really got into Taylor Swift in order to impress a girl he wanted to fuck and he would go on about how impressive she is and how she's our generations Michael Jackson. That all ended when I finally realized he had only listened to a few of her songs. I asked him to hum a Taylor Swift song and he could only think of the "we are never ever ever getting back together" one. People get social validation from liking Taylor Swift.
>>130494186granted, at least they were hot and Olivia eventually discovered cool music instead of MOR. Swift looks like Karen Carpenter in the last year of her life.
She lost her virginity between albums three and four. You can tell the change in her personality at that point.
>>130494272Taylor Swift losing her virginity to Jake Gyllenhaal is part of the Swiftie lore.
>>130494324Yes but a lot of them don't get it and keep telling Jake to give her the scarf back
>>130494096>The industry is a lot less abusive now, butthey drove singers along with a whip, especially if they thought you were really a hot commodity. cruel but it got results and you never had stuff like Alvvays taking 12 years to release three albums.>>130493907think there's an unnecessarily high number of Steve & Eydie albums? you guessed right. ABC and Columbia milked that pair relentlessly for as long as they could.
>>130494272>go from innocuous waif to perpetually whining about being pumped and dumpedit fits
I think what's helped a lot with her long term appeal is how she somehow avoided resorting to sex appeal all this time. The most sexy thing she's ever done is made me wish I was a chair in the Vigilante Shit choreography, and even then that's really not that much. It's easy for people to see her as a parasocial best friend because she's just a tall goofy white girl
>>130494367>I think what's helped a lot with her long term appeal is how she somehow avoided resorting to sex appeal all this timeNot for lack of trying, but she just can't. Not when you look like Olive Oyl or Karen Carpenter in her final days.
>>130494338You could get away with that with pop or MOR singers because they were just interpreters. With rock it wasn't possible since the bands usually wrote their own material and had a finite number of songwriting ideas, so you ended up with a band like Steppenwolf run ragged because Dunhill wanted them to release albums at a Steve Lawrence rate, but they couldn't possibly deliver.
>>130494367Swift really had no hits and was a near-non factor for a number of years following 1989, if you fuck off for a while audiences don't get as fatigued.
>>130494483Yeah because that was when she'd pulled her catalog from streaming because they weren't paying smaller artists enough
>>130470388*is a lesbian in your path*
