Capitalists cannot explain this
>>517388541>the boss should just pay us and never get any returnsWhy the fuck would he do that???
>>517388541Maybe because the workers don't pay for the machines, material, and other man power to produce said products, let alone the time it took to start the company from the ground up. Fucking retard.
yeah cause you're too dumb to understand
>>517388640>>517388691>>517388724None of you are smart enough to understand Hegel
>>517388541>my labor is equal to the risk & investment the owner hs taken upon himselfJust go start your own company if it's so easy, dumb fucking commie. And then make sure to pay all your employees what you pay yourself.
>>517388858Risk and investment is a meme. There is no risk to onwers. They'll still live better lives than the rest of us even if they fail at gambling public money acquired from banks
>>517388541Who invested money to buy the factory to build things in, the machinery and raw materials to actually build things, the transportation to ship things in and out etc?
>>517388691That's all taken into account, even with all of these expenses being paid back fully to the capitalist, the capitalist would never divide up the profits after this evenly with the worker.
>>517388761Answer the question dipshit
you also make a profit when you sell by over valuing the worth of somethingthe product is a combination of the worth of the thing being sold and the labor cost to produce that thingconsumable product through labor is the source of value, and the labor itself is the foundation on which that produce has its speculative valueby paying the capitalist, there is a social contract being formed in which the buyer agrees that they are willing to purchase the end product for its listed value, even if its over valued, bc they value the value of the product more than the value of the their current holding purchasing powertherefore, wage is not always less than the product is worth, bc buyers determine if a product will be sold, and buyers have been historically known to purchase overvalued productscase in point, stock market
>>517388541>Capitalists cannot explain thisso seize the means of production and watch what happens, production goes to zero, hahahaha, who could have seen that coming? Not Marx that's for sure
>>517388858What risk do they run?
>>517388761Then solve the problem for us feeble minded individuals oh great thinker.
>>517389024>>517388858Also most investment wealth is acquired via profits in the first place. So it's not like they are investing money earned through their own wages. Infact considering how low wages are for a lot, it's impossible to start a business in the first place. Money at it's core will always be an instrument of power.
>>517389208another case in point, women desk jobs that monitor social media like tiktok and youtubethey get paid 6 figures to sit around and remove conservative views, which is a very overvalued labor, in addition to producing service rather than a consumable product
>>517389188Nor should they. They took the risk of building the company and they deserve to reap the rewards. They still have to manage the employees as well.
>>517388541Thats why you Embed yourself so much in the company that if they try to fire you they Literally can not function without you. That's what I did at my job I hold Multiple licenses that they need to be able to function so every year when i ask for a raise they give it to me. Also they know my wife is an Attorney so im not really strapped for cash so they cant really threaten me with a firing
>>517388858>youre just lazy and need to bootstrap
>>517388541The profit is the value of the inherit risk involved in capital investment.
>>517388541Just be a boss if it is that easy
>>517389770Commie cucks wants free gibs
>>517388541How much the machine cost and how much maintenance of machine cost?If you pay workers full price of sold goods you have no money for maintenance of machine.And this is just one one of many of the problems that communists are too stupid to percieve.If they are so good at making these things - make these and go out and sell them on you own. And suddenly they need this capitalists for it because they themselves lack skills to do so.
>>517388761Hegel wasn't smart enough to understand Hegel.
>>517389967No need to sperg out pawel we know you hate communism
>>517389297Marx is known for dividing by zero in his maths papers. So something going down to zero is no problem for Marxists they can divide the sulprus by zro and have infinite money that capitalists would never have.
>>517389770>>517389888Socialists want to kill you for keeping the fruits of your labor. Socialists are anti-worker and anti-human.
>>517389561They do reap the rewards, there is no scenario where they wouldn't. The real argument is almost entirely about how the worker should be earning more because their labor is usually worth more than they're being paid, the argument about leveling the field entirely is the only one entertained by capitalists because it's easily defeated. Having them reap the rewards does not at all require them to screw the workers. Think about it - if the worker isn't able to know how much their labor is worth to the capitalist, then they're not able to negotiate a fair price. They'll never get 100%, but if they're getting only 10% this is clearly a problem. This has always been something that capitalists know but that they make very difficult for anyone else to find out.
>>517390069It's not about hate. It's about facts. Communism is retarded and already failed everywhere in the world.Inb4 china. China since Deng Xiaoping is not communistic but authoritarian national socialism.
poor people deserve even less than we currently give them
>>517388640The boss is a nepo baby who sits on his ass and tells the productive people to work harder. Can be replaced with a machine
>>517389188And that's a good thing.
>>517388541The modern (((capitalist))) doesn't own a factory, he just pumps and dumps the economy so he can buy low and sell high.
>>517390202Ok so why would the machine pay you then?
>>517388541>if u start a business u automatically make fuckloads of moneyso start a business
>>517389888>>517390114A capitalist free loader projection if I've ever seen one
>>517388541You could always start your own business and take on all the risk, Im to retarded for any of that, I'll just be a wage slave.
There was a time when companies were operated on minimal debt. The goal was to own the land, the building, the equipment, etc. The CEO made money off of his salary, not stock. All of the incentives were in place retain employees and generally think about the long term future of the company. In that environment factory workers were supporting a family on their wage. Now it's just a big scam, money is borrowed, buildings and equipment are leased, the only consideration is quarter to quarter growth. Senior leadership is compensated with stock so the overall health of the company is meaningless to them, only the stock price. Weber grills manages to be very successful manufacturing with union labor in illinois, they are privately owned so they don't have to worry about constantly pumping the stock price to the detriment of the company.
>>517390675Taxation is parasitism.
>>517388541So accordingly, being a boss is easy. Just be a boss and give your workers 100% of the profit after day-of costs
>>517388541The jew Dodge brothers did this.
>>517388541Only stupid people believe this narrative.
>>517390133>there is no scenario where they wouldn’tWhen there’s a loss
Since it's so easy to be the capitalist boss, all the workers should become bosses then. Problem solved,.
>>517391090People create value. It only makes sense that the value be used to help the people.
>>517388541If the value that the boss brings to the table is 0 and the workers doesn't have to give anything to him, then that means that starting a company is extremely easy. Then why don't you just go ahead and do that instead of looking for a job you commie faggot?Never mind, I forgot that all commies are allergic to work and want to steal from other people.
>>517391323>all the workers should become bosses then. That's literally what communism is
>>517388541What is a capitalist?
>>517391349No it’s the ceo that creates value. Without the employer the employees are jacking their dicks off
>>517388541Of course you can also chose to minimize profit for well-being of your workers&improving product quality but given that normalfag cattle always take the lowest common denominator it's unsuitable and some fucking kikes will also lobby to your goverment to fine you for "unfair competition" and "not caring about stockholders"(????) like Ford's case.
>>517391377No, just because you're the boss of company A doesn't make you boss of all the other companies.
>>517391349People own the value they create, your attempt to rob them of their value and kill them is pure parasitism.
>>517391432>Without the employer the employees are jacking their dicks offHas literally never been true on all of human history. People want to work if they aren't alienated from it. Humans are not a species that'll just sit around till they go extinct.>>517391593>your attempt to rob them of their value and kill them is pure parasitismWhich is precisely what capitalists do when they rob workers of the value they create. >>517391517The retard I was replying to argued that all workers become bossess. How do you think that would be possible without collective ownership? It is inherently impossible for all workers to become bosses in traditional capitalism because then there would be no workers left to do the actual work.
The idea of capitalism is every business will be forced to maintain reasonably low profit margins because any extremely profitable sector will draw competition, thus lowering prices. This goes out the window when a monopoly is established.I'm pretty much a socialist now because capitalism fails to take human nature into account.1. The general population does not understand economics and does not notice when free market principles are violated.2. If you allow people to become very wealthy they will bribe the government to change the laws to favor themselves.I think the Scandinavians have the right idea. We don't need extremely wealthy people.
>>517391517>>517391995Therefore snarky remarks like "muh why don't they run a business themselves" are retarded.
>>517391995Throughout all of history people had employers, they had lords, kings, guilds, etc
>>517391995This is a retarded argument. Capitalists often take tremendous risk to establish a business, sometimes with multiple businesses. Just to break even, the successful business has to pay for itself, and for all the other failed attempts. Of course there must be a profit motive for taking that risk, otherwise no one would be willing to do it.
>>517392023Scandinavians have the worst system.And monopoly can’t exist in a free market
>>517388541you got paid for your labor, not what you produce
>>517391995>Which is precisely what capitalists do when they rob workers of the value they create.You have a VERY stupid definition of theft, it's not theft if you go to a company and say you want a job, and then get mad that they don't give you all the money you make while you use their equipment and their services and their expertise and their organization that they had to pay for to even give you the job in the first place which allowed you to make more money than you would have chopping down trees with a shitty axe you made and selling it on ebay.It IS theft to take peoples money with the threat of violence which we call taxation.Socialists have completely stupid definitions and ideas about everything which is why it always ends in death, poverty and disaster.
>>517389697if what OP is saying is true, then yes, you are just lazy and need to bootstrap, because apparently you can just produce the goods without the businessman
>>517392231Lords and kings are not employers. The fundamental truth is people work to live. Who holds power how the work is done and reward distributed comes after that fact. We can have managers who work and earn like everyone else without making them into resource leeches through some magical divine right to rule or magical ownership of private equity
>>517392265Lol, said the American. You have been chased out of your own cities by niggers, forced to retreat to the middle of nowhere. The banks own your homes and cars. Your parks are filled with drug addicts. Your women are disgusting whales who rightfully have no respect for the men who allowed these things to happen. There's no point in even arguing with your retarded ideas because the population that holds them will be extinct in ten years.
>>517392323Who cares what they get paid for? they get paid whatever the employer wants to pay them, no one is forcing them to get the job, and no one should force the employer at gunpoint to hire some retarded socialist who will do a crappy job and make his business go bankrupt and probably steal his supplies too.
>>517392566Private equity isn’t magic, it’s people pooling their money to buy a business and improve it
>>517388541You're arguing that there should never be returns on investment, which would immediately kill all investment. The place these guys work in wouldn't exist in the first place without what you call "Capitalism".
>>517392646you're really not as smart as you think you are
>>517392720What are you talking about idiot? What a non-argument.
>>517388541well at least its better than communism loool
>>517392827https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
>>517388541capitalism is on it's way out, and will be replaced with slavery. and since capitalism requires and endless supply of cheap labor, and you cannot get cheaper than a slave, it will be the end of capitalism.
Question: why is it so hard for dumbfuck commies to start their own company and pay everyone equally? Seemingly only commies are too fucking stupid to start them, why is that? Go start businesses for all your comrades to work at and make sure to pay them fairly. That's that weird thing: the the left apparently knows ALL about economics & business...yet they're always poor people and wage slaves. A commie will never create a functioning company for all his brethren to work at hahaha. The communist could start a company to free & emancipate his brothers, but he will never do that. He will just complain to his current master about working conditions instead of setting out on his own. Leftists are truly children with no agency or intelligence.
>>517392587No point I arguing with a Euro.You have no human right, you have no freedom and your women are ugly
>>517392244If risk created value, the economy would run via casinos. A human cannot feed himself or cloth himself via this magical "value" supposedly created when one bets money in a poker game. Work creates value. Simple as. >>517392431It's funny how the capitalist system defines theft in a way that perpetuates it's own logic. I'm sorry but when you are criticising a system, like capitalism, you cannot do it within the confines of it's own rules. It's the very idea that the equipment, services and organisation are hoarded and controlled by a few oligarchs via private equity that is being criticised. Which allows them to steal from the people who do the actual work. >Socialists have completely stupid definitions and ideas about everything which is why it always ends in death, poverty and disaster.Death ,poverty and disaster have been the defining features of the capitalist system. But keep on with he projection.
>>517392952Capitalism doesn’t require cheap labor at all
>>517392674And where does that money come from in the first place? More exploitation and theft that preceeded the current theft exploitation.
>>517388541>Power over your fellow man is a natural human desire.>Let's just let this natural desire be never fulfilled, ever.Maybe its worth the suffering of others. I think its necessary to have a society where people can at least have a tiny glimmer of hope that they can make something great of themselves one day.But aside from that, I think capitalism is inevitable anyway. Even if the monetary system were abolished, there is still material wealth and social capital, which would still concentrate into few hands.
>>517388541Explain what? I own a business. I spent 5 years running it while also working a full time job and investing my personal money into it. 5 years of nearly 80 hour work weeks before I was making enough money to start hiring workers. I had a factory that I built, equipment that I purchased with my own money, and assumed all of the personal risk that it may all just crash and burn. I also have 3 patents to my name, which my employees dont. I pay my employees an excellent salary that's in the 80th percentile of what folks make in this area with similar experience and qualifications. But they don't make as much as I do because I'm the owner and worked much harder and risked much more han they did. If I lose clients, my pay is the first that gets cut. I pretty much only hire White men, and I want them to have enough financial security to be able to start families. I ensure they have upward mobility to the extent possible, and pay for additional certifications and upskilling out of my own pocket (I don't need to do this). Its not to say that our economic system isn't fucked up. Back in the 1950s, when this country was much better, there are many business owners like me who looked after their workers. As businesses scaled and globalized, management consulting firms like McKinsey came in and advised companies to outsource labor and encourage immigration in order to concentrate wealth among the shareholders. For a public company, its literally illegal to not prioritize the shareholders at all times (Dodge v. Ford).Retarded criticisms that capitalism is inherently evil with no nuance for how we ended up in this situation are counter productive, however.
>>517391995Let me give those of you socialists who have an IQ above 50 some advice, all of you socialists should really become ultra-capitalists, you should create a movement that wants higher pay and better conditions for workers, to do this you need to greatly reduce the size of the state to increase economic efficiency via price signals, then you will actually get wealth and better living conditions and higher pay etc.The MOMENT you say "we need to steal from people and kill people to get wealth and improve society", you lose all credibility and confirm that socialism is a psychopathic disaster.Anyone who actually cares about the working class should be an ultra-capitalist who despises the parasite class of big corporate government.
>>517393043>>517392719>>517392431>>517391465>>517391422
>>517393181Depends. A worker could work, trade the fruits of his labor for some cash, use the cash to start a business.Say a lumberjack sells his lumber, uses the proceeds to invest in a tree cutting machine to cut more trees, uses those proceeds to buy another machine and hire a worker who he pays more than he would make working for himself
>>517388541So you don't think of depreciation costs, management costs, dividends, investments etcFucking retard low grade rage bait
>>517388541But yet, can't explain why need to listen to star of david mason and shill for them.
>>517393244Outsourcing and immigration is good for the economy
>>517392952>and since capitalism requires and endless supply of cheap labor, and you cannot get cheaper than a slave, it will be the end of capitalism.Slavery is incredibly economically inefficient, slaves make terrible workers, low intelligence, low productivity, unhealthy, cannot think creatively, cannot solve problems, cannot work as fast as a free man.Which is why most modern slavery comes from hyper-statist societies like China and Africa.
>>517393256I'm not defending bosses, I'm making fun of useless commies. This is just shitty deflection: you're useless and you know it. Memes don't change the fact that you will die a bitch to your boss because you'd rather use gay words, words, words oblune instead if take action & agency.
>>517393046Kek true.
>>517393256Yes nigger, turning control of all industry, housing, food, distribution, monopoly of violence and turning in your firearms to a central command economy controlled by a small selection of autocrats shielded by in both removal from plebs and legitimacy via "expertise" is the anti bootlicker position
>>517393256Wanting the state to be massively reduced makes you a bootlicker, socialist logic 101.
>>517388541Boss gives poorfags a way to make a living though
>>517393414Its good for shareholders. Its not good for the country. We were a better country when we didn't outsource in pretty much every capacity.
>>517388541workers dont take the initial financial risk. if they funded the company they work for with their own money and it doesn't work, poof their initial investment would be gone. most businesses fail.
>>517388640why the fuck should i make $10,000,000 in product for noseberg and get $10 for it
>>517393531i can tell you are 14 based on your cringe politics. grow up and become a real libertarian instead of this meme ancap ideology.
>>517393093>hoarded"Hoarding" isn't theft, you'd have to be a moron to have that definition of theft. Very basic errors socialists perpetuate.>Which allows them to steal from the people who do the actual work.Again, you think a voluntary contract to exchange goods and services is theft, you yourself know this is nonsense and just an attempt to steal from the productive working class.>Death ,poverty and disaster have been the defining features of the capitalist system. But keep on with he projection.More socialist lies, read about Mao Zedong's mass murder regime.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
>>517388541>"Why does a chink get one dollar an hour for producing IPhones instead of getting paid 1 thousand dollars for each phone they put together?"
>>517393843>DUHHH BINGE DUUHHH CRINGE BECOME A COMMIESocialists are a living meme. You will never be a real Anarchist, that ship sailed 100 years ago and when the USSR collapsed.>Not real socialism!
>>517394019Ironic because the reason they get paid so little is because they live under a totalitarian wealth stealing corporate socialist regime.
>>517393277>Depends. A worker could work, trade the fruits of his labor for some cash, use the cash to start a businessExcept how many instances of this do you see in real life? Is it really that common for lumberjacks to become billionares only if they "play the game right"?A capitalist would argue that a lumberjack, if talented, can become a billionare by investing money in business. And by doing so the capitalist would claim that his own position of wealth and power comes from such "talent" or "merit". But that's far from the case. Most people do not make enough money to start a business. They have their own expenses. Plus they do not have the right connections or expertise simply because they were not born in the right circumstances. Which is why rags to riches stories are so rare. Not because being a business owner and cashing in checks requires some special talent. Plenty of average people born in the right circumstances are doing it. But because most people are simply not in a position to do so. And it is not something to be aspired either because work creates value not "ownership".
>>517393093ever heard of the starving chinese communist village that tried economic incentives and grew out of poverty thanks to it?https://medium.com/@pat_18343/how-18-starving-farmers-in-xiaogang-village-china-changed-your-life-forever-b7662bdfd57d
>>517394033USSR was an incredibly successful socialist country that collapsed after introducing shock capitalism. Lmao. The entire world's population would be poorer today if not for one country: China, the most successful socialist country in history. You are mad, you are 13 years old, and your politics are a hybrid of what your dad tells you and 4chan memes. No concept of dialectical materialism. I bet you don't even know rw libertarians simply co-opted the term from the anarchist left. Also Mao was right and landlords deserved it :)keep at it good goy though
>>517388541its explained to you many, many times, you idiots are just too dumb to understand it.You want to profit from your own inputs but refuse to let others profit from theirs.
>>517393895>Again, you think a voluntary contract to exchange goods and services is theft, It's voluntary only because the workers don't have a choice since they don't have the private equity to own the business they are working in. Even if all the workers in a workplace pool their savings they wouldn't be able to own the very business which works entirely through them. It's extortion basically. >More socialist lies, read about Mao Zedong's mass murder regime.Spare me with the death figures. My country was ruled by a literal company for 100 years and capitalism caused 200 million excess deaths here. Deaths which could've been avoided if the profit motive was not a first priority. Don't even know what the figures are in rest of the world
>>517394329>China, the most successful socialist country in history.china is state capitalism, retard
>>517394329>USSR was an incredibly successful socialist countryYou might want to remove that line from your list of talking points buddy. You're proving my point for me. Socialists will never be real Anarchists.
>>517393742Because that's what you contractually agreed to do?
>>517394597workers cooperatives can work but how do you raise the initial investments to start a business? workers are too poor to risk their own money in startups that usually fail.
>>517391377No. In communism the politburo and high party officials are the bosses. The workers are demoted to gulag slaves.
>3 posts by this ID>All of them rage baitEvery fucking time
>>517390133What would be a fair wage then?
>>517394329Also.>No concept of dialectical materialism.That shit is scientology tier cult nonsense. Marx, Hegel and Engels were pseuds and their theories were profoundly wrong and resulted in previously unseen human suffering.>I bet you don't even know rw libertarians simply co-opted the term from the anarchist left.I know that very well and i'm glad we did. Left/right is made up horseshit from the French revolution btw.>Also Mao was right and landlords deserved it :)Taiwan will never be China.
>>517393093>If risk created value, the economy would run via casinos.It is. It's called the stock market.
>>517394991Workers cooperatives could only work if they were partially cooperative, sadly they probably never will be because commies currently own the idea.
>>517395070Whatever they say it is, it's made up bullshit.
>>517388541>Capitalists cannot explain thisOnce you realize it has always been the workers paying capitalist inventors and the other capitalists making lemonade or lemons workers waste/don't want you will stop being confused.Plus if you want real socialism, it is small eco-communes licensed by the Libertarian International Organization.Now hit the bricks.>>517394033 I bet you don't even know rw libertarians simply co-opted the term from the anarchist left.The reverse is true. They also co-opted socialism and communism. Anyone calling libertarian rw is an ignoramus larper.
>>517395230there are successfull cooperatives right now that work and remain competitive, like mondragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
>>517393742Because when you 'make it' you're just pushing a button on a 100,000,000,000 machine that noseberg had to buy
>>517388541Because they are only a small piece of the equation that goes into creating the value of the product. This is the same exact retarded misunderstanding as that commie from facebook who said that he produces 3000 little rubber gaskets in an hour (he doesn't) but he only gets paid enough to by 6 of them or whatever.You're completely ignoring all the rest of the people places and things that go into creating the product. You aren't the machine you push the buttons on. You aren't the guy that maintain that machine. you aren't the raw materials. You aren't the truck that hauls those materials to the factory. You aren't the factory. You aren't the guy who built the factory and pays the taxes on it. You aren't the electricity that powers the machine. Etc.You are a small piece of the value creation puzzle and you are fairly compensated for your input.
>>517388541>Capitalist cant explain itSure i can, a green text>Be Me>Be big brained retard with great idea for product>Cant produce enough myself need factory>Factory cost many tendie bucks over 10m tendie bucks>Only have couple thousand tendie bucks>Go to Tendie investors tell them of great idea, they agree to help and give me 10m tendie bucks >I build my factory and buy the machines needed to my by thing.>I need people to help operate the machines becuase i cant do it all my self.>I hire 3 people>We make the thing>People give me tendie bucks for the thing. >I take that profit and i use it to pay my workers>I then have to pay back the people who gave me the 10m tendies to build the facotry, but tendie interest >I then also need to pay to keep the factory going >I then also need to pay for all the benifits and costs of my employees >Then i can also pay myself. >My thing costs more tendies then my workers make, because i have to pay more bills in order to make the thing.
>>517389297>picrelI've read before that FDR was doing similar things to fascism, so much so that fascists even complimented his policies, but I am not well informed enough to know how that works>>517395070I think the concept of minimum wage is to allow a single-provider to sustain himself and his household, but that seems hard to obtain nowadays.
Here's a question for you, oh noblest worker who creates all the value:If you are capable of creating all of the value yourself, then why aren't you doing that and undercutting your boss to make all of the profit personally?
>>517394991>how do you raise the initial investments to start a businessIf you believe that investments are necessary for human beings to work and create things that other humans might use, then you are already thinking under the Capitalist paradigm. But it's this very paradigm which suffocates human work unless some rich capitalist makes investments with a social construct such as money which is being criticised here
>>517388541Best increment advice is to steal other peoples gold
>>517388541This is easily explainable. The value of the workers' labor isn't just dependent upon them. It's heavily dependant upon what they are doing (executive direction) and the tools they have access to (capital). The image is deliberately ignoring variables. Shit executive direction (i.e. a bad CEO) and the whole company goes to zero. Workers being directed to make mud pies in a field is worth zero even though it's tons of labor. And a worker on their own without access tool tools and technology is much less productive.Because the worker is only one piece of the puzzle, they only get a piece of the pie and not the full value of the final profit.
>>517395026Not really no. Even if you were to assume that the party elite of imperfect Soviet Union acted like bossess, their leech tendencies were still nothing compared to the average American billionare. But ideally speaking workers in a communist system should hold power over the government via democratic institutions. >>517395148No. Stock market exists a posteriori to the actual work and production of value. If everyone stops working today and become stock market speculator, there would be no economy left to bet on. Risk does not create value. >>517396004>You're completely ignoring all the rest of the people places and things that go into creating the product.Even if you were to include the entire system it still wouldn't change the fact gay in each step of he process of creating the raw materials for the rubber gaskets, it's the workers who are making it possible. And in each step the capitalists involved are leeching them off. If you remove that leechery, this worker's payment would obviously not be equivalent to the market cost of 3000 gaskets. But it would still be way hire than the cost of 6.
>>517388541Correct, you're not paid what the product is worth, only what your work is worth.
>>517396987Fuck these typos>*The fact that in each step>*Still be way more than the cost
>>517395510>like mondragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_CorporationI'm guessing it's massively state funded since it's in socialist spain, so massively inefficient.Businesses simply don't work when you need meetings about every single thing they do. It's not even achievable.
>>517395461He's talking about modern Libertarian movement and Ancaps, we did coopt that term from the early Anarchists, and yes Libertarianism is neither left nor right.
>>517388541Everyone misses that the class of people which is poor and has to work hard to survive is critically important for any society. This fact is not convenient for capitalists, it's not convenient for communists or fascists either.Without those people nobody is willing to do certain jobs.
>>517397650Libertarianism originally was far left, it's far right these days.
>>517394597>workers don't have a choice since they don't have the private equity to own the business they are working in.Not having money is theft? What world are you licing in where any of this made up bullshit makes sense?>Even if all the workers in a workplace pool their savings they wouldn't be able to own the very business which works entirely through them.You think it's a right to steal a business that you don't own? More bullshit.>Spare me with the death figures.Typical socialist, The Chinese Communist Party itself admits that Mao killed 50 million people, that's their own numbers, and they say it was a good thing.All socialists either allow murder or actively love mass murder.
>>517388541>Capitalists cannot explain thisEASY... research, expansion, prototyping, etc.SpaceX has not made a dime from Starship... spent BILLIONS on it... BUT when it does work, it will be a money making machine
>>517388541And thus the boss is compensated for his contribution to the value chain, without which the product and all of those jobs would not exist at all.
>>517397246>>517396987Back to your loo, poo
>>517397539it's organized through representative democracy rather than direct democracy on all issues.they can maintain democratic control while still being able to operate efficiently at scale.
>>517390069crikey ! a chinese!
>>517389297Based Reagan moment. Was cringe in other ways but will always love how he made commies seethe.
>>517388541It's called the economy of scale.It's easy to explain.The exactly amount of sales are impossible to calculate but must be more than expenses or you will go bust.You can link earnings to pay in a cooperative structur but you will lack expertise, vision and pay can become unreliable like with Uber drivers.This will still be a market system and Marxism doesn't promise this.
>>517397805Libertarianism was originally left, but modern Libertarianism is outside of the left/right paradigm.
>>517398177Communism refuted in a single sentence.
>>517389024>>517389392No wonder you people live in a garbage dump.
>>517398111>Not having money is theft? Theft of labour is the primary reason why workers don't have that kind of money to begin with. Why they are poor to begin with.>You think it's a right to steal a business that you don't ownYes. I am criticising the very concept of business ownership itself . Owing to how it leads to exploitation and theft.>The Chinese Communist Party itself admits that Mao killed 50 million people,Source:my assCapitalism is a murderous genocidal economic system. That's a proven fact. It's the kind of barbaric system where the last glass of milk on earth will sooner find it's way to a rich woman's cat than a poor man's child. >>517398192Concession accepted
>>517398272>representative democracySo it's garbage then, the only kind of democracy where anyone has an actual input is direct democracy, and even that is dubious.
>>517398542India is capitalist and was ruled by a company for 100 years. Wrong example m8
>>517398707Imperial government =/= capitalism, by the way indians are starving under your commie government.
>>517388541You are a complete and total idiot.Its also why communism doesnt work.It's conceived by morons.
>>517398814As I said, Indian government is neoliberal capitalist. Not commie. And an imperial government can definetly have capitalist structures. Infact most imperial colonies were capitalists in their operations. This is not an accident. Imperialism, colonialism, exploitation and capitalism are all sides of the same coin. Brothers born from the same womb. What part of "ruled by a literal profit making company" do people not understand.
>>517398393Modern libertarianism is the furthest right ideology there is. Ask a libertarian about a specific policy and he will answer the same as an ancap on every one.
>>517398707Indias problem now is chronic corruption, and having Islam and communism trying to invade.
>>517399036This is true. A fundamental aspect of this is protestantism. From it individualism, being middle class, capitalism and empire arose.
>>517398635>Theft of labour is the primary reason why workers don't have that kind of money to begin with. Why they are poor to begin with.Circular logic, you never explain where the actual theft is you just kind of hint at "theft" being not having money, which is completely retarded.>Yes. I am criticising the very concept of business ownership itself .I know that. Socialists criticize the very concept of any kind of private property at all, including self ownership. Which is extremely evil. If you don't own yourself i should be allowed to enslave you "for the greater good" and shut you up, like all socialists do.>>517398635>Source:my assOh sorry, I was wrong, the Chinese Communist Party only admits that they slaughtered a measly 22 million people.Here's your source socialist devil.>Li, former Minister of the National Bureau of Statistics of China, estimated 22 million deaths.[89][96][97]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine#Death_tollAll socialists are murderers and murder supporters.
>>517398695it still works and the company is competitive, i'm sorry if reality goes against your ideology
>>517388541You see, the workers do not won the machines, the warehouses, the means to ship or distribute, sales, marketing.I've known commies that know this shit and have actual arguments for those, but you don't seem to have even read their books.You are lazy. This is why you are a commie. This is also why you can't be allowed to manage a damn thing.
>>517388541Americans WILL defend this.
>>517399081Ancap isn't far right you have no idea what you're talking about.
>>517399422>it still works and the company is competitive, i'm sorry if reality goes against your ideologyThey receive massive government subsidies or they would have gone bankrupt long ago, keep lying for your anti-human ideology though.
>>517388541guy who stocks shelves and pulls levers thinks the means of production rests on his shoulders
>>517388761>None of you are smart enough to understand HegelLmao what a faggot. The Dialectic is a scam that Marxists use as an intellectual sleight of hand to say "we're right and you're wrong." It's at the root of all leftists pilpul and dishonesty. All of post-modernism and "critical theory" is rooted in Hegel's intellectually bankrupt hogwash. Picrel is your fucking dialectic, you genocidal freak.
>>517388541The worker isn't paid less than the product is worth. The customer is charged more than the product is worth.
>>517399496Monarchy is more left wing than ancaps
>>517390481It shouldn't the human race should just go extinct and robots should take over with a soft version of our belief systems.
>>517399735They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work. - cold war Soviet quote.
>>517388541employees don't have any risk (other than unemployment) if the business fails owner shoulders tons of financial risk
>>517399876If you believe in left/right bullshit maybe that's true, i don't, left/right are terms that come from 18th century France and mean basically nothing in modern times.
Friendly reminder that communists aren't people
>>517399775Neither of those things are true actually. The product is worth what it can bring in on the open market. The value has nothing to do with any costs of production, including labor. Don't fall for commie word games. Marxist was not an economist and his theories are designed exclusively to rile up violent dipshits in order to enslave them later.
>>517399999CHECKED
>>517398129>SpaceX has not made a dime from StarshipSlightly off topic but they actually have made a lot of their starships. Space X is a military contractor that launches and produces rockets for the military. Their space launches work as part PR piece, part demonstration of rocket capabilities, and part because Elon is an autist that actually is obsessed with space.
>>517388541Become the boss you lazy fuck, but no you want everything for nothing.Useless shitsack.
Reminder that billionaires should not exist
>>517399181>Indias problem now is chronic corruption,You cannot expect people living in a capitalist paradigm, where the fundamental drive of human activity is earning money, to not seek money when in position of power and influence. Because power and money always go hand in hand under capitalism. >>517399403>Circular logic, Isn't that what you are doing though? You define capitalist ownership of means of production via private equity as just and right. Then use that definition to justify their theft of productivity created by labour. That IS circular logic.>If you don't own yourself i should be allowed to enslave you It's the opposite actually. If people were really able to "own" themselves then they would be able to legally sell themselves to slavery. Socialists do not see the right to self autonomy in terms of "ownership" or lack thereof. It's fundamental. (A capitalist slaver might though argue that everyone "owns" themselves therefore they can "sell" themselves)>Oh sorry, I was wrong, the Chinese Communist Party only admits that they slaughtered a measly 22 million people.Here's your source socialist devil>Famine deaths = slaughterYour midwittery is showing. As I said, there are 200 million excess famine deaths in my country alone as a direct result of capitalism. 1 million children starve every year all over the world, as a direct result of capitalism.Stop projecting the murderous tendencies of capitalism on better ideologies lol.
>>517400083I think they are still relevant, but there are obviously many other dimensions that are important. Even the social/economic matrix is too simplistic to describe ideologies. Which is how you get commies that feel justified in pretending that Hitler wasn't a socialist.
>>517400309>t.
>>517388541The problem here is the assumption that labour has any value at all, only the product has value.People produce good product they are paid, otherwise they are let go. It's not the activity, it's what is produced.For example: If you cut down a tree and chiped away at it for months. Expertly ustilizing many tools and taking dear sweet time to produce 1 exquisite single tooth pick. Communism would say that tooth pick has a high value due to the labour and skill put in to it.Capitalism says let the market decide.
>>517400363>no rebuttalit's all explained there
>>517400271He is not just lazy but also a violent destructive parasite.
>>517398635you cannot steal labor retard. Slavery is illegal. If you don't like how much they are paying you, you have every right in America to go home and jack off. I know, I've done it.>i am criticizing the very concept of business ownership itselfso if business ownership is illegal or even regulated, how do you make more businesses to make more workers? How do you trust that the businesses opened will be ones that actually serve the needs of the community?>inb4 "muh goberment planning office"seems like it would be easier to just allow property rights to exist and let members of communities to decide what places are needed based on profit structures and streamline the job process allowing more workers to make more money than if it was a top town controlled government structure. If workers or customers decide the business is detrimental to their lives, they have direct voting power to whether or not that business lives, either through labour contracts or direct supply of capital. Its the money of capitalism that actually gives like dalit roaches like you a voice. without it, your goberment planning office would be making you clean sewers for 16 hours because "there are no classes comrade" instead, even YOU! get a voice.truly capitalism must be the gentlest system we can derive from this unequal world!
>>517400361Personally i think left/right spectrum is far too stupid in modern times and we should just throw it in the trash.But if left wing was total government and right wing was no government then that would make more sense, but i think the terms are just too convoluted now and we should just reject both, since to most people they are both totalitarian socialists.
>>517400361Socialist is a fine way to describe hitler. He was a totalitarian centrist.
>>517400162>The value has nothing to do with any costs of production,Kek
Hmmmm
>>517400406The rebuttal is simple: Communism is evil and only communists are against billionaires.
my boss lowered my salary because rich pedo shareholders wanted more profit
>>517400342India has a caste based socialist system. Everything is ran by the government for the elite few. It's why your country is in shambles. Why you only had 1 car for sale over there for decades. Your markets are tightly controlled by the elite few to prevent competition. It's only after looking at china they opened things up a little. It's still tightly controlled.I live in a capitalist nation. The number one health concern over here amongst the poor is obesity.
>>517400658Ok prove how smart and educated you are and read what was posted: >>517400309
>>517388541That's Judaism.
>>517388761Hegel my balls, niagga
>>517400719Because in capitalism, goyslop is the only thing that poor people can afford.
>>517400309Reminder your subhuman opinion doesn't matter to reality.
>>517400654Kek i love this one.
>>517400825OK... Thanks for your input...
>>517400913nice "rebuttal" retard
>>517389024Range ban india already
>>517400825Under socialism they starve to death, unless they are lucky enough to recieve a moldy piece of bread and a rotten egg in the bread lines.
>>517400309>ImageThe island analogy argues against socialism and for capitalism. If I'm the first to find the water source then obviously others should play by my rules. Otherwise why find water if hundreds of other survivors will bath their shit covered butts in my drinking water (and you know a number of the survivors will be from India and will do that). Don't like my rules then go dig a well and make your own water source.
>>517401104Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the US, rabbi, despite over 60 years of an illegal embargo.
>>517400162Crazy how effective this image is at explaining Order vs Chaos.Where do you suppose every philosopher that talks about the concept falls under?
>>517388640He wouldn't, obviously, which is why the entire system itself needs to be changed, which flew over your head completely apparently, or you're just pretending to be retarded.The graphic isn't an argument saying workers should be paid more than their labor is worth, it's an argument that the entire system itself is inefficient and misallocates the rewards for labor.
>>517388541most of us made our fortunes with relatively slim profit margins. we just made the lives of loads of employees/customers better, and that adds up. it's no different than a musician who sells hundreds of millions of albums, but only makes $1 jewbux profit/ea.if you somehow discover a high-margin niche, the competition will smell blood in the water, and you'll be btfo in months. that's just how the universe works most of the time, unless you have a patent for some drug or whatever.i'm also in commercial property, which makes brokies seethe, but the returns in that industry are a laugh compared to even a moderately successful small business.fuck off, faggots.
>>517401105I never argued for socialism. The picture is pointing out how a flaw in the system, that is, the super high bar for "going public", is causing a small group of insiders to get unnaturally wealthy through inside baseball.You guys rushed to judgement accusing me of communism because that's the standard of idiocy on /pol/ these daysThe truth is, in capitalism you're paid for the value you produce. But it's not physically possible for a human being to produce billions of dollars of value himself. No one human being can do the work of millions and millions of men. It's literally impossible. If you see a "billionaire", in 100% of cases they are exploiting some type of hack in the system. Usually involving the stock market. The stock market is like a magic money machine by which you can generate billions in wealth without producing a dime of value. It's a gambling house
>>5173885412 out of 3 of those workers likely arent producing anything
>>517388541>The sex had to be good, I spent an hour making it!The value of a thing is not bound exclusively to the amount of labor that went into it's production.
>>517388541by this logic, everything is free in the end
>>517400511>If you don't like how much they are paying you, you have every right in America to go home and jack off>If you want to work but the means of doing that work are monopolised by a bunch of leechy elites who'll pay you less than you create in value then you can go home and starve to death. What a swell deal. >How do you trust that the businesses opened will be ones that actually serve the needs of the community?I'll let the community itself figure it out. What they need and what they need to do to meet those needs. People work together to create human life. This is the gist of everything. Capitalism is just one of the (very bad) systems through which this is achieved. Humans won't stop farming, producing or living if capitalism goes away. >If workers or customers decide the business is detrimental to their lives, they have direct voting power to whether or not that business lives, either through labour contracts or direct supply of capitalUnless you are suggesting that the workers should be able to vote capitalists out of owning the particular means of production you don't really have a point. Private ownership stops the common folks from having any say at all on how assets are used and resources are allocated. You have no choice but to buy from businesses presented to you, on the prices they fix and work for them on the wages they decide. This is a worse form of dictatorship than any communist "regime"
>>517400342>Then use that definition to justify their theft of productivity created by labour. That IS circular logic.No, i'm saying that's not theft, because it isn't and only a madman would think so, a voluntary transaction to exchange labor for money is not theft.>Socialists do not see the right to self autonomy in terms of "ownership" or lack thereof. It's fundamental.Socialists don't believe in self-ownership at all, as you admitted, therefore i would be allowed to enslave you for the 'greater' socialist ideal.>It's the opposite actually. If people were really able to "own" themselves then they would be able to legally sell themselves to slavery.Completely wrong, if you own yourself you in fact cannot sell yourself into slavery at all, in fact you can never give up your self ownership, because in order to say you don't own yourself you wouldn't be able to continue to abide by your contract since you don't own yourself and cannot make decisions by definition.Regardless, even if you could enslave yourself, under socialism everyone is a slave to anyone who wants to enslave you because you have no right to reject slavery since no one owns themselves.>Your midwittery is showing. As I said, there are 200 million excess famine deaths in my country alone as a direct result of capitalism. 1 million children starve every year all over the world, as a direct result of capitalism.More and more lies.If you don't work, you may starve, that's just a law of nature and physics, that doesn't mean i murdered you because you were lazy. Once again socialists are redefining terms to be completely meaningless.The Chinese socialist government MURDERED 22+ million people by stealing their food and executing them at the barrel of a government weapon as chairman Mao himself said, they themselves admit this, this is the truth you can't deny and are trying to avoid but you can't.Socialism is a mass murder suicide cult.
>>517400719>>517400719>caste based socialist systemLmao. What is that even supposed to mean. >Everything is ran by the government for the elite few.Yes. I already said India is capitalist. You don't have to repeat it. The fundamental tenet of capitalism is the government enshrining the institution of private property via title deeds and contracts so that the elite few can control everything. >Your markets are tightly controlled by the elite few to prevent competitionA capitalist oligarchy is till capitalistThese posts are literal examples of the "socialism is when capitalism" meme. Whereby every failure of capitalism is blamed on socialism.
>>517388541And ?Become the boss
>>517400005Not the argument presented.This is about fundamentally changing the entire system itself, not complaining that within this existing system the capitalist gets more than the laborer.And this has to actually be tackled because soon enough - within the next 200 years - there will be no laborers left, only robots and capitalists. Do you propose giving everyone 'unearned' welfare? How is the capitalist who 'owns' the robots producing everything 'earning' his wealth? Should we simply kill off the 90% of the population that doesn't own robots to do their work for them?The system is fundamentally broken. You know it's fundamentally broken, but you argue for the broken system anyway, even as it reams you up the ass, even as you promise to murder most people in the future, which would likely include yourself or your descendants, so that the capitalists can prosper with their population of soulless robots.
>>517401491Socialism has proved itself to be massively ineffiicent for over a century now.
>>517388761I don't care about Hegel
>>517402146Your very own family practices socialism, or do you just send your sons and daughters to go die in the wilderness after they're born?Your beliefs are inherently anti-human.
>>517402200... you think caring for your family was invented in the 1800s?
>>517401210>Order vs Chaos.Ironic because you probably have it the wrong way around.
>>517388541they don't even receive that much under socialismI would say total commie death, but that's unnecessary because they always wind up starving by the millions anyway
>>517402478You seem to think that, not me.Why are you jumping on a VPN
>>517402478He does unironically. He thinks government = family.
>>517402200Sophistry All collectivist ideologies (where the worker serves the state ) are run from the top down , the workers are always screwed by the rich Jew at the top. Youre either a Jew shill or a useful idiot.
>>517402530Things worked out just fine with national socialismFrankly from my perspective, there's no difference between a communist and a capitalist. It's the same system with different window dressing and most of you are idiots who can't see it.Fundamentally, the purpose of a system is what it does: The end results of capitalism and communism have been the exact same thing. They fought together in the war against national socialism. The post war consensus has done nothing but destroy western civilization, whether under control of a capitalist or a communist.You people need to wake the fuck up to this sooner than when you walk into the slaughterhouse.
>>517401942>a voluntary transaction to exchange labor for money is not theft.A voluntary transaction made under a stark power differential created by the unjust institute of private property certainly is theft. Especially when one side doesn't even have a choice on the matter. Let's say all the workers today stop participating in this "voluntary" transaction of an unjust system, what would happen? The civilisation would collapse and within 3 months all humans will die. The capitalists then can keep their institutionalised "ownership" as they starve to death. For ALL humans not working is NOT a choice. Just because you decided to be a useless neet yourself doesn't mean that someone else's work isn't feeding you. What if they all go neet? Ever thought about that?. There is no vOlUnTaRy muh choice here. Humans MUST work. >Socialists don't believe in self-ownership at all, as you admitted, therefore i would be allowed to enslave you for the 'greater' socialist ideal.Lol retard do you even read what I've written. If self ownership was a legitimate institution then slavery would be legitimate too since you've turned man into a commodity that can be "owned" even If by himself. You are so dense that you are not getting the point. It's BECAUSE socialists do not believe in self ownership that slavery is not possible under socialism. Because socialists don't see people as commodity to begin with.>More and more liesFacts are not lies. You don't get to quote the 22 million figure without me telling you how many more millions capitalism directly killed. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bengal_famine_of_1770&ved=2ahUKEwjZtIrwyvmPAxVucfUHHQIBAgEQFnoECGEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw36Vji2S_qSQxjCAT3MefaW
>>517400592Yes, you retarded shitter. You know products can be sold at a loss? Here is a textbook definition for you of "value":>The value of a good is determined by the subjective utility an individual places on it, and the willingness to pay based on preferences, needs, and perceived benefit, relative to its scarcity and available alternatives. Also, get the fuck off our board and our internet.
>>517402200>ever do a favor for another person, ever?>checkmate kulaks now you have to support the government owning everything
they don't get full value of what they produce because they do not own the tools they use to produce what they produce
>>517402971>Humans MUST workAnd capitalists are hoarding the means of doing that work to themselves via private property thus allowing them to steal from workers. In case you didn't get the point.
>>517401517Facts>>517401541Jesen Huang is responsible for the creation of hundreds of billions of value
>>517403069Once more, you are the kind of person arguing against doing anything for other people. You want a system that dehumanizes you into just a number in the labor pool, whose value is to be deprecated as fast as possible.Are you also in favor of mass immigration? It's fundamentally part of the argument. If you're fine with the capitalist getting a larger share of the profit, you're intrinsically fine with the capitalist dumping the expensive labor for the cheap labor.People like me however, recognize that it isn't cut and dry like that. There are things that matter more than just profit, and there are better ways to manage resource distribution and 'profit'. The entire economy itself is nothing but a scam and we all know it is. The actual productive effort that makes things work is not the productive effort that gets rewarded - we saw as much during covid.
>>517403059I'll be waiting for the day when cars are in such over supply and low demand that they'll cost less than a loaf of bread. Until then subjective utility tards can stfu about how actual material realities of production have no bearing. I know using their brains is not a strong suite of anyone who brings up subjective theory of value.
>>517403279>Jesen Huang is responsible for the creation of hundreds of billions of valueNobody is. Go down the list of billionaires, 100% of them are exploiting some flaw in the system.
>>517403394>accept state force to control your life or you're a bad person
>>517388541unregulated freemarket capitalism is literaly the jews wet dream, they thrive in it as you can see
>>517403524Once again, that is not an argument I've made, and quite frankly the system we operate under is already "controlled by state force" or does your brain just turn to mush when you learn things like Keir Starmer hiring Blaire's son to manage the digital ID system in the UK? Do you even know who any of those people are?
>>517403603Quite the opposite. Jews want communism and fear capitalism. A capitalist society is a Jew's worst nightmare.
>>517402971>MUHHHHHH POWER DIFFERENTIALAlright you're just not a serious person, you can't even acknowledge basic realities, there will always be a power differential between everyone, you can never abolish it, it is not even a bad thing as long as everyones natural rights are respected (freedom).Trying to use the aggressive power of the state to force everyone to have less of a power differential by definition only increases it because all of the power ends up in the state (since the method you're using to supposedly reduce power differentials is itself the weilding of power but even worse since it's aggressive and violates NAP) and all of the people who aren't state officials or are just lower level or working class end up having all of their power taken away and trampled upon by a violent, wealth stealing dictatorship.Come back to me when you actually want to talk about reality and not just made up ideological fairy tales blatantly used as an excuse for your murder/theft ambitions.Private property is not theft, living is not murder, peace is not war, socialism is all three.
>>517388761Hegel's dialectic posits the existence of a Spirit that lies beyond the material. Problem-reaction-solution works in the short term but creates many problems in the long term, which should be corrected through feedback from one's Spirit and consequent expression of free will. The fool that he was, Marx stripped the Hegelian dialectic of the Spirit and made it materialist. Marxism and all its descendants repeatedly fail and will continue to fail because it completely disregards the existence of nonmaterial forces.
>>517402520The more i think about the more it reinforces that even at the furthest extremes a modicum of the other still exist.
>>517403603And, just as with libertarianism - it's never actually a 'free market' when put into practice.Because they tell you, the goyim and shabbos goyim, to be good cattle and obey the rules, while the jews and insiders subvert and skirt around those rules for personal profit vs 'the suckers', and furthermore play a game of kicking the dog until it bites so they can be morally justified in shooting the dog. You see this behaviour and these practices all over the place with capitalism, with communism, and with libertarianism - all three of them inherently jewish ideologies.
>>517400391'communism' doesn't say that at all, what you described is a room temperature iq understanding of the labor theory of value. how does the market 'decide' how much a toothpick is worth? answer: it's still human labor, but there's an socially-determined average amount of human labor it takes to produce a toothpick. this is known as "socially necessary labor time" to produce a given commodity. going beyond what is socially necessary to produce an identical product does not add realizable value.
>>517403394>Once more, you are the kind of person arguing against doing anything for other people.See pic.Under capitalism you are free and encouraged to do charity, violently stealing from the working class via the state is not charity.
>>517394682I don't understand why smoothbrain eurofags think it is some big gotcha that China uses state capitalism to achieve socialism. Socialism is literally about using the existing apparatuses of society to reach communism, including state run capitalism. That does not mean China's government is "capitalist", lmaoif americans would read any history at all it would make them look far less retarded
>>517403524average statist argument
>>517388541>inequality is always wrongI am bigger and stronger than most people. I don't owe small, weak people anything by virtue of them being small and weak.
>>517404044Yeah that's just random shit Marx shat out like projectile diarrhea. There is no scientific backing for any of the shit you're saying.It's kind of like someone in an astronomy conference talking about Flat Earth and the theory of the Great Ice Wall. It might be convincing to you, but it doesn't belong in the same room as actual science
>>517388541The real problem is the corruption of "shares", they need to have a payback date, this corruption of the system has cause most of the current issues on it.Shorting stocks has caused a lot of the rest of the issues.
The problem with capitalism is unchecked sociopaths being in possession of extreme amount of wealth that they then use to expand even further and aid in things such as brown people imports so they can get slave-tier labor from them, completely and totally disregarding the effect it has on every aspect of every day life and living. They simply don't care, they want more profit despite not needing it at all, and they will sacrifice entire societies for it. It's basically the money version of "I did it for the lulz".
>>517404256>41 posts by this IDBuddy why don't you go out and enjoy your Saturday instead of arguing about your cringe fringe politics? Is it statist to touch grass?
>>517388541The short of it is that labor is fungible, thus subjecting the worker's wage to the downward pressure of a globalized labor market.All while the idiotic image pretends that markets are just a given without fierce competition and all kinds of risks.Buy a bakery, hire workers and on the first day you might have someone sueing you because it was baked too hot. The next day, a franchise opens around the corner that sells bread for half the price with a free toy. The month after, wheat prices soar because there was a bad harvest and you didn't earn enough yet to afford wheat futures. A week later, your best baker calls in sick.It's like communists can only see the tiny fraction of success stories and tell themselves: "we want that", like spoiled, golddigging women.
>>517403977True. I had the same thought when making the pic.
>>517388541The worker doesnt have to gather the materials, purchase any tools, or actually sell what they produce. Which personally sounds much more stressful and unfulfilling to me. The real problem with capitalism is when the profit motive becomes more important than the overall wellbeing of society. Which becomes inevitable because of competition, but is greatly exacerbated by all kinds of diversity. If you dont see your customers as some sort of extended family of yours, you can more freely rip them off or "chemically enslave" them.
>>517404284i love how the average rightoid response to marx is "i dont get it so its stupid and fake"ngmi
>>517401210I think philosophers tend to value individual freedom, but also rightfully understand that most people are retarded and need strong structure for society to function. The Enlightenment thinkers, for example, were elites writing for other elites, so even their liberty maximalist ideas weren't actually meant to apply to the sheeple in practice. My feeling is that since political philosophers overwhelmingly come from the higher echelons of society, they are going to be on the side of statist control over anarchist freedom, regardless of what their own version of "the ideal" might be. And in contrast, the more Anarchist/Libertarian types tend to come from distinctly common backgrounds, e.g.,>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon
>>517388541>always lessThis type of propaganda accelerates automation.
>>517403753>there will always be a power differential between everyone, you can never abolish itThat's not even a real argument. If everyone thought like that then no unjust system would ever be abolished.Slavery? Feudalism? Just say "muh tHeRe wIlL aLwAyS bE pOwEr dIfFeReNtIaL" and thus nothing needs to be done. What a joke. >because all of the power ends up in the stateWhich is precisely why I argued for the socialist state to be a democratic institution under some degree of representation from the working masses. Thus my argument is to reduce the power differential by giving that power back to the people. Which can be exercised via state institutions if need be. Not in the hands of capitalist parasites. >socialism is all three.>Socialism is when capitalismNo
>>517402554Im not? Phone fagging at work
>>517401517Interesting thank you for the insight.>>517404370I just enjoy arguing and the pursuit of truth, i'm going to literally touch grass right now, enjoy your day my commie.
>>517404451>The worker doesnt have to gather the materials, purchase any tools, or actually sell what they produceTrue. Except it's other workers who are gathering the material, purchasing the tools or even selling the product. Capitalists only control the process and make decisions (with their own benefit in mind of course)
the difference between the left and right is simply one between intellectualism and anti-intellectualism. the right wants to ignore reality by resisting any and all change, which results in mass denial of simple facts.
>>517388541>product is worthnothing is worth anything, completely made up concept
>>517388541If you think you’re labor is worth more than your employer is paying you, quit you’re fucking job and start a business doing it on your own.You won’t.To everyone else in the thread, he fucking won’t.
>>517404519Science is tested. It's actually tested in the real world.There are an infinite number of possible theories for everything, you aren't smart for thinking of them. There's only a very small number of theories that conform to actual reality. The philosophical shit that Marx was doing does not even relate to a scientific process. It's about using your verbal abilities to trick other people
>>517404756This
>>517403977You need to think about it quite a lot more than that.The image is total meaningless bunk. Nobody should be taking it seriously. It's superficial retarded nonsense.There is no "horseshoe", either. The truth is that there are effective ways of doing things - which totalitarian/authoritarian systems realize and utilize. The ways of doing things are not inherently any -ism or other. Everyone who gains power infringes on the speech of those who wish to overthrow them; it's literal self defense, not an intrinsic mechanism of their ideology.We saw the grassroots "right" finally learn this reality and put it into practice after Charlie Kirk was assassinated - flexing power when their enemies made a mistake celebrating a martyr's death, and costing hundreds to thousands of batshit insane neoliberal robots their jobs.
>>517404756>ignore reality Like that all labor is equal?
>>517404540one might even say that the dominant ideas in any given society are the ideas of its ruling class
>>517404809t. someone who's never read marxread a book then we'll talk ok
>>517404797>Everyone starts a business to get rich>No one left to actually work the businessCrazy
>magic utopia factory pays workers exactly what they produce>no profits for boss, he works for free like 4chan jannies>production is flat, no investment in machinery>no expansion, no emergency fund, no hiring of new workers>efficiency goes down>sales little down this month>ok, pack it up boys, we're fucking broke
>>517404592>That's not even a real argument.It's not an argument it's simply a stating of undeniable reality, maybe one day you'll accept it and become Libertarian to actually stop the violent theft from the working class, for now you seem to be in complete denial though so nothing can get through to you and we will never agree on the complete lie that simply owning private property is theft and that violently taking someones private property isn't theft, enjoy your day.
>>517404921I mean it depends on the time place and era. Like 60%+ of people at this point dont support isreal. Is that the view of the elites?
>>517404756The difference between left and right is that the right wants to openly discuss new ideas and concepts while the left wants to murder everyone who voices new ideas and concepts.
>>517404840>There is no "horseshoe", either. The truth is that there are effective ways of doing things - which totalitarian/authoritarian systems realize and utilize. That is the second dimension of the horseshoe: potential of action. The horseshoe shape forms because there are just better ways to potentialize action within a political ideology than other, which the "far extremes" of the political spectrum decipher and incorporate into their ideologies.
>>517405158I would say that the elites are losing their grip on society. The crackdowns reek of desperation.
>Durrrr complex systems with dependencies mean capitalism bad a hurrrr durrr. Work within a system doesn't take place all at once. Work is done within the system over time with various levels of labor investment. Labor isn't undervalued, work just isn't measured by immediate payoff but rather productivity to the system to make it functional. You aren't undervalued, you're just not that valuable and are replaceable. It's the same reason doctor makes more than a ditch digger. Don't like it? Then gain more valuable skils to increase the value of your labor or start a business and invest it into building a valuable system.
>>517405125>it's simply a stating of undeniable reality,You did present it as an argument against my assertion that there is a power differential. I pointed out that change would be impossible if such thought terminating pointless vague assertions are presented everytime a problem is pointed out. You are always welcome to go back to doing back breaking farming in the fields of a Duke if you really believe that.>one day you'll accept it and become Libertarian>Just support oligarchies broMaybe, after I get myself a lobotomy
>>517400586I get where you are coming from. Not trying to nitpick either, but "centrist" could only be used to describe Hitler if operating out of the "directionbrain" box. He was very far from a moderate. There is a reason that National Socialists and Fascists embraced the "third position" descriptor. Hitler's nationalism and militarism were considered a right wing positions even at that time, but his socialism was certainly a radical left idea. The problem for the left/right dichotomy is that you can't exactly just average out Hitler's views out and get to "center." It is hilarious though how hard Marxists will seethe at the fact that Hitler was a hardcore socialist.
>>517405117>silly workers can't understand the concept of putting aside revenue for reinvestment >workers operating a factory means the manager works for free instead of getting paid slightly more than the workers who elected him
>>517390202Ok then why not start a competing company then? You can pay your workers even more, then scoop up all the good workers and get paid nothing for all your effort.
>>517405418... does that not disprove your idea?You could pick any major political issue for the last millennium and you'd find a major portion of the population doesnt agree. Often the majority of the population disagrees with the Elites. Like what point are you trying to make? That people at the top of power structures have more power than those at the bottom?You're saying the sun is infact bright?
what if nobody buys the products? who takes the risk? who takes the loss?
>>517405472>you're just not that valuable and are replaceable. Yes. Treating labour as a commodity and subjecting it to market forces is the central issue here. The source of exploitation and misery that is.
>>517405608>silly workers can't understand the concept of putting aside revenue for reinvestmentHave you ever met the average waggie?That is absolutely true. So you want 18 year olds hired off the street have as much say in the company as someone who's done it their whole lives?Never tried to make an independent business work im guessing?
>>517399898leftism in a nutshell
>>517391349Value is used to help the people. For example, amazon lets me order shit straight to my door so I don't even have to leave the house. Thats great value to me even if some pajeet has to work 20 hour days to do it.
>>517396987>But ideally speaking workers in a communist system should hold power over the government via democratic institutions.Ideally you should be allowed to own property and pay people to provide you services and exchange your time for money.
>>517388541Wow communists really are this fucking retarded huh?
>>517403783Hegel's spiritual dialectic is still retarded.
>>517403783This philosophical crap can be summed up >trust the man with the impressive looking grey beard who uses the complicated wordsIt's not a scientific process. It does not check itself against the real world. It's completely worthless
>>517405981I was talking about taxation there.>>517406082Nothing ideal about labour theft and the resulting poverty. But that's just me. Maybe capitalists do believe the world should slave to them just because they have a piece of paper.
>>517405505Jesus christ, I can't even imagine waking up as a shitskin. Whats it like? You're talking a whole lot about misery when indians are globally the source of misery for a good portion of the entire world. Why don't you make the world a better place and kill yourself and your family?
>>517388541the workers have no value without the owner. if they had more value without the owner, they would work for themselves in their own facilities.
>>517406361>labor theftIts not theft, they're getting paid what they agreed to get paid for their labor.
>>517406441Lol what a weirdo
>>517406557Sar please take the shit out of your mouth sar. Isn't there a train you need to get hit by?
>>517388541Workers aren't worth the value of the product they produce, they are just worth whatever they agree their pay is. Their pay is their worth. End of
>>517388541The capitalists canand do sometimespay their workers more than the value of their laboris actually worth.If the capitalist pays one person$500 an hour to run the registerand everyone else $5 an hour,when they equalize the profitthe person running the registeris going to lose their high wages.The secretary of the CEOwho sucks his dick during lunch for $200,000 a yearisn't an exploited proletarian.She has a vested interested in keepingthings going the way they are.Once you understand this,you'll understand a lot about how the worldactually works under capitalism.
>>517394329>China, the most successful socialist country in history>Mao was right and landlords deserved it :)You contradicted yourself so fucking bad it's laughable.
>>517406533Already addressed here in this thread. But I'll repeat the main point. Consensual agreement here is actually a myth since humans cannot afford to not work and capitalists are hoarding the things to work on to themselves. (Things that are either natural like land or created by other workers like computers and chairs and offices)The working class cannot choose to one day stop working for capitalists (without taking over the means of production obviously)
>>517405963>Maximizing efficacy for corporate gains is leftism?
>>517405590>It is hilarious though how hard Marxists will seethe at the fact that Hitler was a hardcore socialist.To me it's more hilarious how boomer conservatives will call hitler a socialist to prove their stupid points.Hitler was a socialist, but the boomer has a worse worldview than hitler, and i'm not a hitler guy.
>>517388541>>517388691>Maybe because the workers don't pay for the machines, material, and other man power to produce said products, let alone the time it took to start the company from the ground up. Fucking retard.The "owner" doesn't pay for them either -- they use the banks money or an investors money -- they pay back those people.It's never the owners money to begin with -- that's goofy conundrum here. In laissez-faire wages can certainly go up, especially if profits are going up. This shareholder value model is antithetical to capitalism and essentially begs for communist revolutions. There is no excuse for low wages.
>>517405303Kiddo, your "horseshoe" is built on the idea that all the conflicting particular interests and interest groups in a society can be modeled with a simple, one-dimensional line. You need a double digit IQ to even consider taking that model seriously.
>>517406837Kill everyone so that everyone will be equal
>>517407077Except for all the times it was their own money.You're an idiot if you think all new businesses are banks money
>>517407074https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly1cPYSqgR4
>>517407077>There is no excuse for low wagesDefine "low wages"
>>517406348I don't put much stock in Hegel, myself - but logic and math are deeply intertwined, it's not correct to say "it's just complicated words" you can in many cases (not in Hegel's) turn a logical argument into a provable mathematical equation which satisfies the conditions of science.Don't ignore philosophy just because you think it's big meaningless words spoken by old white guys.
>>517405714i'm saying that peasants didn't collectively invent the concept of the divine right of kings, nor did wage workers invent the concept of liberal democracy; those ideas served to keep a particular class in power in their respective societies.>>517405870yeah it's really too bad that people are born with a fixed and unchanging set of knowledge from birth, would be nice to live in a society where we could influence educational outcomes
>>517407301Wages that can't pay for the entire cost of living in the area work is supposed to be taken place. In true, pure, capitalism, wages are set by the person doing the work, not the person buying the labor. The wage is what the worker wants it to be, the buyer of labor should not determine it's price like they don't determine price of supplies they buy to produce their products with. If "owner" can't produce their product without other people's help -- that's "owners" problem. They need to pay other people do things for them -- the other people determine their price. THATS capitalism, Shareholder value is communism in a different form. >>517407225>You're an idiot if you think all new businesses are banks moneyYou're an idiot if you think I think this.I 100% promise you I know more about this subject than you, I've read every pro-capitalist book ever written -- there are no excuses for shitty, low wages. That's just kikes screwing over people.
>>517407397>Don't ignore philosophy just because you think it's big meaningless words spoken by old white guys.Agreed.
>>517388640he shouldn't, for many reasons:0. more profits means he will have generally a better life1. his personal incentive to increase profits is what keeps things efficient2. if he did, he would eventually be replaced by more ruthless capitaliststhis is a critique of capitalism. critique, in 20th century philosophical terms, meant "description" rather than "negative value judgement". the point being made here is that workers and employers have opposing interests: the worker wants to sell his labor force for as much as possible, while the employer wants to buy it for as little as possiblethink about this: no system lasts forever, and many of the previous productive systems in human history fell from their own internal contradictions (sets of opposing interests within the system), so you have to consider where are the "failure points" of capitalism that may, eventually, lead to it's collapse and replacement by a subsequent systemit doesn't necessarily mean that whatever that will come after capitalism will be better than capitalism (by whatever metric you decide to measure that). the marxist argument, if you boil it down to it's most minimalist and vulgar expression, is that history never stops
>>517407437>i'm saying that peasants didn't collectively invent the concept of the divine right of kings, nor did wage workers invent the concept of liberal democracy; those ideas served to keep a particular class in power in their respective societies.I mean, divine right is a standard that was thought up independently by basically every civilization. Most people couldn't read until literally the last century, if we left things up to the average person we'd still be in caves. People being interested in keeping themselves in power isnt some crazy revelation like you think it is. Can you name any developed society ever that did not have an elite class? How would you even make decisions and enforce them for a large population without an elite class?>yeah it's really too bad that people are born with a fixed and unchanging set of knowledge from birth, would be nice to live in a society where we could influence educational outcomesThis is the type of thinking that got people saddled with massive college debt for pointless degrees. No, atleast half of all people are irredeemably stupid. You could throw books at them for the rest of your natural fucking life and they wont just not learn, they won't care that they didnt learn. You have a fantasy land understanding of human beings.
>>517405590>>>517400361Hitler was a 'socialist' if you define socialist as anyone who takes an unprincipled critique of capitalism. Mass privatization of state industries and ruthless bloody suppression of labor can hardly be considered socialist though.
>>517407762People are paid what theyre worth. They're worth it to the employer, otherwise they wouldn't pay it.They're worth it to the worker, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
>>517407090Yes, it is a simple model, which is satisfying enough for the most basic decision making and those with double digit IQs. That doesn't mean the "horseshoe" has no value, just that it's limited in its explanatory power.You are proposing a more complex model based on the various conflicting interests of different groups. You'll need to consider religion, metaphysics, philosophy, linguistics, psychology, and much much more to complete your model. In fact, you'll need to model the entire economic activity of the world, like that of Wassily Leontief at the Harvard Economic Research Project. Computational modelling will work best at finding optimal solutions for particular cases across that n-dimensional problem space.
>>517407177You do now the word killing is not the same as going extinct right? What is the point of useless workers when robots do everything better? humanity would have to either evolve to become machines or die under continued progress . we are literally entering a transhumanism era the end game is robotic humans. Aka robots with human like beliefs
>>517408312>People are paid what theyre worth.And what human creature is capable of determining the 'worth" of another?The human will always lie and call the other humans worthless so they can share less resources and keep more for themselves. That's why humans always set up these bogus systems of using thousands if not millions to prop up a small group of humans who, in their own mind, determined they are "worth" more...In reality they're just flesh and blood they shits and pisses and dies like all biology does.
>>517388541So, Mr. Genius Anticapitalist, let's grant you that you're a quality worker drone. OK now you are independent... how do you get business in your door? How do you smooth out feast and famine periods? What is expectancy? Show me the expression for calculating expectancy.You don't understand: your employer is a player at a card table figuratively. Your employer is going out on risk to the market to drum up business, and is going on risk again promising you regular cashflow. Can you handle all of this on your own and not end up foreclosed and homeless? No?Then suck it up buttercup, or it's prison for you! Your thought process will lead you to criminality if you are not careful.
>>517408736>how do you get business in your door? How do you smooth out feast and famine periods? What is expectancy? Show me the expression for calculating expectancy.Workers do all of that anyway. Different kind of workers but workers all the same. >Can you handle all of this on your own and not end up foreclosed and homeless?Ironically workers are at a bigger risk of homelessness than the owners when a business collapses
>>517408647We don't determine the worth of another. Only ourselves
"capitalist christians" be like >yeah we're all made in god's image but some of us are more of his image than others and they deserve everything if you're poor just go die there is no such thing as contextmany such cases!
>>5173885411. Capitalism is still not a word, the concept divides by zero. (If everything is then nothing is.)2. The workers get more than they produce. The boss also gets more than he produces. The boss's job is to get the best trade deal, and we GAIN BY TRADE. Everyone gets more. That's why we do it.(In other words, if your pic-rel was factual, nobody would do business with anyone else, we'd all just do our own thing all the time. Need a chair? Learn to build one. Need a house? Learn to build one. Want a moon-lander? Learn to build one. No trade = no specialization.)
>>517409074Theres multiple passages in the Bible about reaping the benefits of your own labor dumbass
>>517409172That's a good point, if they produce a product that sells for 50 dollars, it's only worth 50 dollars to the buyer. Why is it suddenly worth 50 dollars to everyone else?
