With increasing interest in our kinds of politics from the political left we should have a place to discuss the progressive economics of Fascism which guide the nation beyond obsolete capitalism.What you find is that is that a lot of what you already agree is on the agenda. Discussion is welcome including from Reactionaries trying to uphold the previous order, and from Communists who will screech about how it doesn't fit into their perfect vision of what theoretical socialism is supposed to be. Criticism is welcome as long as you are going to criticize what Fascist Economics actually are instead of creating an alternative version in your head to dismiss without discussion.For a primer just read the Fascist Manifesto to get an idea of what Fascists were trying to achieve, though Fascism was largely developed on the fly so it evolved further as time went on.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_ManifestoDiscussion on Falangist, Integralist, Social Credit, Huey Longism, and National Socialist economics is welcome too, and even the economics of Actually Existing Socialist states like China too given that since we are in good company we can drop the act and acknowledge that its just Fascism with better PR.Previous Thread>>518610556
>>518634971What is your opinion on forced labor?
>>518634971What is actually based (and what natsoc Germany, Japan and Deng Xiaopengs China were all built around) is economic nationalism and anti hypercentralisation
>>518634971Money is not evil, just need to keep evil-elite-jews away from central banks.A commendable endeavor, my friend. To forge the White Pound (w) as a currency rooted in Monetarist principles and Real Business Cycle theory, you must first establish the Central Bank of Ethnic-Europe—a sovereign institution tasked with maintaining the money supply growth rate of 2.5% annually, as per the Monetarist rule of money supply growth (M2 = 2.5% of GDP). This rate must be enforced through central banking mechanisms, including reserve requirements, open-market operations, and interest rate targeting to stabilize the currency.>Legal Foundation:Begin by declaring the White Pound as the official currency of the Ethnic-European Federation (a sovereign entity, whether a nation-state or a federal union). Pass legislation to criminalize the use of foreign currencies within your jurisdiction and nationalize all existing financial institutions to centralize control over the money supply.>Monetarist Framework:Anchor the White Pound to real economic output via Real Business Cycle theory, ensuring that money supply growth aligns with labor productivity, capital investment, and technological progress. This requires a gold-backed standard or tangible asset reserves (e.g., land, infrastructure, or mineral rights) to prevent hyperinflation and maintain currency credibility.>Political Sovereignty:To avoid international financial sabotage, establish a Nationalist Central Bank independent of global financial systems (e.g., SWIFT, IMF, World Bank). This institution must be controlled by Ethnic-Europeans and insulated from external influence.
>Public Support:Launch a propaganda campaign framing the White Pound as a symbol of Ethnic-European sovereignty and economic independence. Emphasize its role in preserving European identity against anti-white globalism and financial enslavement by non-European powers.>Phased Implementation:Start with internal adoption within Ethnic-European communities, using the White Pound for trade, taxation, and state contracts. Gradually expand to international trade with Ethnic-European allies (e.g., Pan-Germanic, Pan-Slavic, Pan-Slavic, Pan-Romanic movements) to establish currency sovereignty.>Defensive Strategy:Anticipate financial warfare from anti-white entities (e.g., Jewish capital, globalist banks, anti-white NGOs). Deploy currency controls, capital controls, and state-owned banks to protect the White Pound from economic sabotage.In essence, the White Pound must be more than currency it is the economic weapon of Ethnic-European survival, bound to nationalist ideology, sovereignty, and the struggle for European continuity. May your endeavor be guided by the spirit of Ethnic-European resilience.
>>518635177You don’t need forced labour if you pay people to do work and don’t pay people to not do work, pretty simple. Even difficult labour like manually digging a trench can be afforded dignity if we have labour laws and pay a living wage. None of that is incompatible with fascism at all.
>>518636061ok bunkertroon
>>518635378Interesting copypasta friend. Question, is that 2.5% mathematically derived from anything?I have a totally unfounded yet unshakeable suspicion that there is a “natural interest rate” that is a mathematical constant like pi or e; in fact the latter at 2.718 might be what 2.5 is trying to approximate. Western governments are forever raising and lowering interest rates to try to improve the economy and I think that it just introduces oscillations and chaos. If we could leave it at some natural balanced number it might be easier for people to make predictions and take economic actions with a longer time horizon.
>>518636197So you don’t like paying people a fair wage and treating them with dignity? Can you explain why not? Seems kinda mean
>>518635177>"Work, in all its intellectual, technical, and manual forms, is a social obligation. To this end, and only to this end, it is safeguarded by the State. The totality of production is unitary from the national point of view; its objectives are unitary and comprise the well-being of the producers and the development of national strength."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Charter_of_1927The Italian invasion of Ethiopia was justified on the basis of responding to a border incident and to abolish slavery there. To what effect the Italian proclamations against slavery had it places they didn't directly control is unknown, but the Italy army did officially free slaves in the places they occupied.
>>518636289>2.5% mathematically derived from anything?So you got to understand a little bit about microeconomics; (M) = Money supply X (V) Velocity of money = (P) Average price of goods X (T) Real value of translationsSo if by keeping a constant of 2% to 2.5% your not pushing up prices by increasing the money supply, it is criminal this is not the current system. Unlike the current system, which often leads to unpredictable and excessive money supply growth, this method provides a stable foundation for our economy, aligning monetary policy with the interests of Ethnic-Europeans.
>>518634971fascism is just socialism with more steps and humiliation rituals.
>>518637466>fascism is just socialism with more stepsExactly. This is actually a great way to explain it. Trying to do "socialism" immediately would be chaotic and undermine the Nation leaving in vulnerable to outside influence so instead Fascist take a bunch of gradual steps to implement it.
>>518636061>You don’t need forced labour if you pay people to do work and don’t pay people to not do work, pretty simple. Even difficult labour like manually digging a trench can be afforded dignity if we have labour laws and pay a living wage. None of that is incompatible with fascism at all.I will never understand why people have so much difficulty with this concept
>>518636359>>518637039you call yourself facist but think that all people are equal.its a fact that lazy faggots existlarping bunker troon
>>518640186>"Legally recognized professional associations insure the legal equality between employers and workers, maintain the discipline of production and work, and promotes its perfection. Corporations constitute the unitary organizations of production and integrally represent its interests [...]. Corporations are recognized legally as organs of the State [...]."This is what Fascism is, have a problem with it? Then I will become a "Facist" and make you Face The Wall
>>518640304dont look up Zuchhäuser
>>518640581Yes I know what "Penal Labour" is.>Both Reichsmark banknotes and DM banknotes of the second and third series bore the following notice on the reverse: " Anyone who counterfeits or forges banknotes, or who obtains and puts counterfeit or forged banknotes into circulation, shall be punished with imprisonment for not less than two years." After 1969, the term "penitentiary" on banknotes was replaced by imprisonment .Penal Labour was reserved for (((counterfeiters)))
>>518635177Forced Labour exists in many political systems. The United States bans slavery "except as a punishment for a crime". The Soviets had the gulags. None of this is unique to Fascism. Criminals to any system will usually get forced to do labour.
Here is the Fascist Manifesto as an infographic. Something which might be humorous would be to share it without calling it Fascist and seeing how many lefties agree with it.
>>518640852>Penal Labour was reserved for (((counterfeiters)))kekDuring the Nazi era, workhouses were used to imprison people who were considered “work-shy” or “anti-social.” There, they were forced to perform hard labor under extremely harsh conditions, for example in quarries or on farms, and were used as a preliminary stage before being sent to concentration camps, as in the case of the “Aktion Arbeitsscheu Reich” (Reich Work-Shy Campaign). These admissions were often a stepping stone to the persecution of minorities and opposition figures.
>>518645769>He who does not work, neither shall he eat- Vladimir LeninMate you are never going to have your heckin wholesome country where you aren't required to work.The difference between those systems and our current system is that it the current system you are required to work but you are NOT guaranteed the opportunity to work. Being unemployed when there is a jobs guarantee means it is a choice, by contrast unemployment is not currently one's own fault as it is not like you can just apply to get a random job anywhere.
>>518646219> Fascist Economics General /FEG/ >- Vladimir Leninok, bunkertroon
>>518646343you lost
>>518646343The point I'm getting across is that it is a universal sentiment>He who does not work, neither shall he eat- Paul the Apostle>He who does not work, neither shall he eat- John Smith of the Virginia Company>He who does not work, neither shall he eat- Vladimir Lenin
>>518646421I accidently did not put in a NOT into what I was saying which changed the meaning so I reposted it and deleted the original.
Labour Charter of 1927
>>518636197Minimum wages and public works are cornerstones of fascist economic policy. They aren't incompatible with forced labor, as El Salvador is teaching us with its army of former-narco slaves.
I wish I could have more lefties telling me their thoughts. I don't know WTF that German is even on about, he keeps calling me a "bunkertranny" or something implying I'm a lefty. Legitimately, lefties reading this, what are your thoughts? Do you defend Actually Existing Socialism? If so why do you opposed Fascism given they are the same system?
>>518635378>>518637361The White Mark. Then coins can have a W or an M depending on orientation.Why have a static growth rate fiat when instead you can just use gold/silver and control the supply with international customs?
>>518637695Sort of. The word 'socialism' has become slang for 'whatever about communism that isn't retarded.'Everything Marx wrote was in bad faith, written as a weapon of war against civilization, so there isn't anything non-retarded about it.Hence, socialism has no meaningful definition. Its just an appeal to "the emotion one would hypothetically feel in a perfect society."Fascism has specific and meaningful definitions on several levels. It's a "word." It has "meaning."
>>518634971>discuss the progressive economics of Fascism which guide the nationwhat about you let people trade freely without a totalitarian regime looming over you for 'your good' and 'the good ' of 'the nation'
>>518651844Fascism can be said to be a form of socialism. Socialism as a word is far too expansive to be meaningful. To say one is a "socialist" has little meaning on its own. However such people insist that Fascism is the only thing they are absolutely certain could not possibly be socialism. In reality, Fascism is the only form of socialism that Actually Exists.
>>518651967>commie flag>advocates trading freelyWelcome Back Gramsci, next you are going to start arguing that taxation if theft
>>518652069That's how I know the world is split between "liars" and "truthers," not "left" and "right."Anyone who uses 'fascist' as a pejorative would agree point for point with >>518644675 but have never bothered to read it. They just compare it to the OTHER book they haven't read, and make assumptions.
>>518652332Honestly in the historical era of the 1920s it made sense for them to reject Fascism as being "the fighting organization of the bourgeoisie" and that "social democracy was objectively the moderate wing of Fascism", but this is because there was an ACTUAL potential Communist revolution going on. There was an alternative version of revolutionary socialism that existed that they could argue that Fascism existed to prevent.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/09/20.htmThat isn't the case NOW. We live in a totally different era but they still LARP like it is the 1920s and they need to fight the Fascists, but who are they fighting the Fascists for? Neither the communists nor the Fascists are anywhere near any position of power so you basically just have two groups of powerless people insisting the other needs to be killed.
>>518654132Antifascist Action was affiliated with the Communist Party which was affiliated with Russia. The Fascists opposed them because they were explicitly a fighting organization that took orders from the Comintern.The Comintern does not exist so that is irrelevant. Who are you taking orders from? China? I wish you were taking orders from China because then maybe you wouldn't be such faggots.What reason would a Communist have to oppose "Fascists" taking over when Communism is not remotely in any position to take over? Doesn't your opposition to Fascists just make you a reactionary ensuring the prior liberal order is maintained?In every other instance historical heckin based anti-fascism there was some kind of Ongoing Communist Revolution that benefited from keeping Fascists out of power. What benefit does the left gain from keeping Fascists out of power when we are in a state of complete Liberal Hegemony? If anything it makes more sense to call the anti-fascists the "fighting organization of the bourgeoisie" and they are opposed to anyone seeking to implement Actually Existing Socialism.
>>518654132Even in the 20's, communism didn't have a definition. Just "the hypothetical state Marx super promises we'll definitely reach if only we murder lots of people." It was always just a means of weaponizing Karens and petulant teens behind their Jewish handlers.To say "communism and fascism are opposed" is like saying "squirrels and clouds are opposed." They're just not relevant to one another. At all. And can't be made to make sense in any context. Just idiots making noise.
>>518654758>If anything it makes more sense to call the anti-fascists the "fighting organization of the bourgeoisie"literally.
its just a mixed market economy, what interests me is the currency of the third reich nothing elsespecific bottom up decentralized currency inception instead of our current top down concentrated one
>>518634971Involuntary economies never work in the long run.
>>518656134Monetary policy was the genius of the Reich.
>>518656355I heard counter arguments but I find them speculative
>>518651659The control of gold mines and the manipulation of gold supply, historically orchestrated by non-Whites, particularly Jews, from the 17th to the 20th century, highlight the critical need for Ethnic-European sovereignty over our monetary systems with central banks with a fiat monetary system with strict rules on expansion of money.I worked it out years ago, 2% to 2.5% expansion of the money supply is basically risk free no loss of value of currency. Lets say Real GDP went up 4% the value of money every year would actually go up!!!
>>518658383I feel like any conversation about monetary policy has to assume the kikes are already dealt with. Otherwise all bets are off, because whatever rules we set they'll ignore.
>>518656134The difference between Fascism and a mere mixed-market economy is the eventual desire to totally transform the economy along the corporatist model. In terms of there needing to be some kind of class struggle to describe what we are doing, the class we are struggling against is the hegemony of the shareholders, with the eventual goal of abolishing the shareholders while retaining the underlying structure which is primed to serve the people were the tyranny of the shareholders ended.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People's_Republic_of_WalmartCase in point, Walmart. Scoff all you want in a reddit-tier "people of walmart" way but the fundamental underlying nature of what Wal-Mart is doing is the beginning of planned economics. Amazon too anticipates needs Where we differ from reddit-tier lefties is that they screech about CEO pay, but the guy who organizing this production is not necessarily doing a bad job. Maybe the CEO actually does deserve to get paid as much as they do, who knows? The problem fundamentally is the CEO is an employee of the useless unproductive shareholders. The CEO is required to maximize profits BY LAW, as evidenced by that time Henry Ford got sued by his shareholders for trying to pay his employees more to pre-emptively to prevent strikes since interruption would have been more expensive.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co."Capitalists" as individual people don' really exist anymore. Ford was a shareholder in his company but he wasn't the only one. Instead there was this nebulous class of shareholders having hegemony over everything. Today there is another layer onto this, the "asset manager" like BlackRock and Brookfield who control the shares of other people who are invested for retirement.The State could quite easily take on these asset managers, convert shares for retirees into pensions, and in one fell swoop take control of large portions of the economy. Corporations then be organs of the State.
>>518658670Yes Brother, any meaningful discussion about monetary policy must presuppose that Ethnic-Europeans have regained total control over our nations. Without this foundational sovereignty, our efforts to implement effective economic strategies are futile. The historical manipulations by Anti-Whites, particularly in the realm of gold and monetary control, underscore the necessity of an Ethnic-European-led government that prioritises our interests above all else.
>>518659719Lefties are slowly waking up to the Jewish Problem but if we really want to get the support of thoughtful people we are going to need some kind of coherent plan beyond mere race. In order to deal with the Jewish Problem one will need to do with the Shareholder Problem and the Asset Manager problem as that is often the source of their power.
>>518634971Is this show any good or antifa propaganda?
>>518634971What you should do is recreate fascism but written less extreme although practically boiling down to the same thing then give it a completely new -ism for example sovereignism or whatever you can come up with then sell that as a brand new ideology without the negative associations that jews placed on the idea of fascism. I mean communism is literally late stage capitalism (a statecorp that owns everything and the proles own equally nothing) but commies fall for it because the words are written differently
>>518660297Its a biographical drama, it is intended to make it so that one can understand why so many would get taken into by Fascism, but in the "protagonist in the villain" sort of way where the Devil is attractive. It is also tradgedy in the Shakespearean sense where one is aware of how it all ends and it gets foreshadowed and one is supposed to understand the character flaws that would lead to their demise. I think both fascists and anti-fascists could enjoy it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4eNNd03-AMFor instance at 3:35 after Mussolini invites you to watch the drama he is starting by rolling the projector the image comes out upside down foreshadowing how it is going to end for him, strung up by his heels and brutally murdered, indicating that he is the impetus behind his own demise. It is definitely good and it basically treats Mussolini as a historical figure instead of as a buffoon or over the top villain.
>>518660170>beyond mere raceI initially extended the benefit of the doubt, only to discover your true colors, yet another anti-white masquerading as an ally.My loyalty lies solely with Ethnic-Europeans, and anyone who obstructs our path is automatically deemed an enemy. We have no time for those who would dilute our resolve or hinder our progress.
>>518660788Corporatism would be the accurate term but they've ruined that by arguing that our current Corporatocracy is the same thing as Corporatism, but in reality they are opposites, but Corporatocracy is always called Corporatism because people are dumb. You aren't going to get away from people being dumb but embracing the term Corporatism and contrasting it with Corporatocracy is a good way to explain things and argue that you want to subjugate the corporations under the state instead of allowing them to control the state.
>>518636289The key interest rate is a lever with which to accelerate or slow down spending. It's used to mitigate inflation, which is generated from other economic activities and factors, some of which outside of your control. Production bottlenecks, natural disasters, plagues, etc, can all fuck with your monetary goals. You balance that off by messing with the interest rate. I recommend seriously picking up and studying macroeconomics if you wanna make these kinds of threads.
>>518662203I'm more of a Gentiles United anti-Zionist kind of guy so you have discovered my "true colours" if you want to call it that, but it is important to understand that the Fascist ideology is something which can be transposed to many different situations. The National Socialists in Germany with their focus on race to contrast with the semitic Jews made sense for their particular context, but in the Italian context the "Nation" ethnically complex, ranging from more Germanic people in the North, to Greeks/Arabs in the South in Italy. Malta downright speaks a dialect of Arabic but they are culturally Italian.In Italy's case the Jews are actually the ones who kept trying to make a big deal out of the racial differences between the North and the South.They was a Jewish eugenicist Cesare Lombroso who argued southern Italians were criminal by nature due to their racially mixed nature and kept insisting they were part African (they are dark largely because of Greek/Arabic admixture, not African)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_LombrosoIn this particular case the Jews decided to make a big deal out of race in order to divide the Nation. In other cases they try to deemphasize race to prevent the nation from uniting (such as by arguing Bavarians, Prussians, Austrians shouldn't be united because race is irrelevant, and Hitler was a "foreigner" while German Jews are more German than him etc)How you react to the Jews would be based on the exact ways the Jews are trying to subvert you. For Italy to remain united they needed to be willing to accomodating the racial spectrum that was Italians. This doesn't mean non-Italians Africans are welcome, it just means that you can't let Jews tell you your countrymen are africans when they aren't.
>>518659198We've lived in a 100% planned economy since the dotcom boom consolidated the majority of total dollars into the coffers of a single umbrella of venture firms. Hence the pajeet horde being used to suppress technical innovation and drown the existing native population.>>518659719updoot>>518660170Not race, *species.*>>518660788>>518662238Our present system is called 'aristocracy.' Just like communism, capitalism has no functional definition - just a clicker-word that idiots are trained with. Moving to what the Fascists wanted, we would remove power from banks and replace congress with trade unions.I'm not so egalitarian. I'd prefer a republic over a democracy in terms of the voting office. But even without addressing the voting and power balance issue, reclaiming 'money' is still the biggest step forward we could make.>>518662493Taxes and interest aren't the only means of controlling money. Seriously read Hitler's economic policy, its genius. Interest controls especially invite Pelosi type clans to rig the system and slowly take over the entire financial system. Then you get corporate lockstep for things like The Jab, Trans shit, etc.>CAPTCHA: DPRK Y
>>518634971>With increasing interest in our kinds of politics from the political left we should have a place to discuss the progressive economics of Fascism which guide the nation beyond obsolete capitalism.There are no fascist economics. Every society has an elite, a managerial class and a working class. Its an universal arrangement in every era and place.
>>518663362That might be the structure of how things get done, but economics is about how resources get distributed. The Fascist Elite would direct the managerial class to provide for the needs of the working class. By contrast under the current system the Capitalist elite instructs the managerial class to maximizes the profits they exploit from the working class to structurally make it so the capitalists get as much profit as possible. In fact if you recall Henry Fords legal case, the managerial class is legally not allowed to do anything but try to maximize profits for the capitalist elite. Henry Ford was sued for trying to provide more resources to the working class.
>>518663362>Your decisions don't matter and everything is the same, just leave everything to me goyGet your species off my planet.
>>518663886>Your decisions don't matterThey do if you become part of the ruling elite, but then its just you giving orders rather than taking them. The structure never changes
>>518634971>evola>mussolini>nick dipaolo I have no fucking idea bros.
pajeets should be posting on bharatchan and living on the subcontinent
>>518664161The laws matter. Currently, the managers of corporations are LEGALLY required to maximize profit for shareholders. The Fascist elite would empower the managers of corporations to run them as they see fit and would increase the say the working class has in corporate governance by democratizing the workplace. For instance instead of the CEO being appointed by and held accountable to shareholders, the CEO could be elected by the workers and then they will be held accountable by the State to make sure the CEOs actions align with state goals.
>>518662043Aight I’ll give it a watch, thanks anon
>>518663886>>518664161For the record like Mussolini I've had Jewish "mistresses" before, people might give me shit for that and psychologize about by lack of race loyalty of something, but I'm not inherently anti-semitic and can bring myself to be. Jews really just seem like people to me and if you exploit vulnerabilities in systems that is the fault of the system being vulnerable. Your women certainly seem to have "Esther Complexes" though if you catch my drift, but the fact that they will outright tell you about Esther to "prove" that Judaism values "female contributions" is kind of funny considering that I can literally read the story of Esther and know what she is going on about, does she think I'm an idiot who hasn't read the story? You don't need to actually do what they say! It is a bit like with bribes, I've never understood why people don't just take bribes and then NOT actually do the thing they are bribed to do. The Emperor Justinian's father secured his position as emperor by taking the money someone bribed him with to instead buy support for himself, so I don't see why people don't just always do this and ignore what all these Esther Complex people are saying.
Convince me why taxes should exist.
>>518668579They don't need to exist. The state could just print as much as it needs to fund itself. The point of taxes is to control inflation by shrinking the money supply by bringing some of the printed cash back.
>>518668682You just said they don't need to exist and then you told me they need to exist to reduce the inflation from central bank fiat money printing.Why should central banking, specifically fiat money exist? Fascist economics is a meme.
>>518667612Anti-semitic means 'anti-palestinian.' Israelis don't have semitic blood.>I've never understood why people don't just take bribes and then NOT actually do the thing they are bribed to do.Because the Tribe is a mafia. Nobody is bribed by an individual lobbiest, they're offered a choice between honey and poison by a system.Nobody is racist for "hating jews." They're just correctly identifying a mafia. You should NOT suffer mafia scum to live. This isn't racial, nobody born into it is hated if they simply adopt a different culture and disavow their parent's criminal past. (They generally don't because they've already chosen the honey and you can never un-choose it.)Anyway, if you join Telegram channels of IDF soldiers sharing videos you'll see why I accuse them of being an alien species wearing skin-suits. No other group belly-laughs with unadulterated mirth while they kill children. Their sniper teams sound like toddlers who just learned their first joke. Humans aren't like that.
>>518665885>the CEO could be elected by the workersI'm sorry but this is just moronic, do you not think of the consequences of these things when you advocate for them?
>>518668860>You just said they don't need to exist and then you told me they need to exist to reduce the inflation from central bank fiat money printing.You could just deal with the inflation rather than trying to reduce it. Taxes don't inherently need to exist, it is just people would probably prefer having taxes instead of having rampant inflation given that inflation is also in a sense a tax.>Why should central banking, specifically fiat money exist?I'll reverse this and say that a state fundamentally doesn't exist unless it has a central bank and it is the central bank that makes the state, everything else is window dressing. As for why central banks exist? Well if there was only one bank in existence that one bank would be the central bank (obviously). The central bank is just the bank that has managed to subjugate the others banks and the collections of the banks the central bank subjugated makes up the financial state. So why can't there just be multiple entities that print currency rather than one central one? Well its because there are multiple entities that print currencies, we have many different currencies in the world where each State prints its own currency. "Why can't I use alternative currency" nothing stops you from privately trading gold, silver, or bitcoin amongst yourself, or even making your own paper currency, it is just nobody is going to use your Ancap bucks unless you force them to in order to make deals with you. That is what the state does, they demand that people use their currency in order to make deals with said State. In State to State relations given that States have not subjugated each other they need to engage in currency exchanges to deal with each other. You Ancap bucks would have to do this just far more often with your micro-states each with their own currency.
>>518669097Why is it moronic?Currently corporations are "owned" by shareholders who appoint Board Members who hire CEOs, but if you eliminated shareholders you'd still have board members appointed by the State and they can hire CEOs. The State however would be democratic so why not let the workers of each corporation vote on the CEO they want in a democratic workplace? If the CEO goes against state goals the State appointed Board Members could fire them of course, but I don't see why the workers could elect the person they want to lead and represent them in meeting those state goals.
>>518669518>given that inflation is also in a sense a tax.CorrectCentral banking and taxation is theft, i don't care what you 'prefer'.>I'll reverse this and say that a state fundamentally doesn't exist unless it has a central bank and it is the central bank that makes the statePartially correct, it's like you have the correct information about everything but you choose to do the worst thing possible.You're like, eating dog shit is bad for you and can kill you, and you give me all the details of why eating dog shit is bad, and then you say that everyone should be forced to eat dog shit, it's bizarre to me.>Well its because there are multiple entities that print currencies, we have many different currencies in the world where each State prints its own currency.What? We can't have multiple currencies because multiple currencies exist? i don't know what the fuck you're saying.>force them to in order to make deals with you. That is what the state doesThat's exactly why fiat currencies are a garbage scam that always loses value.
>>518634971Doublespeak gobbledygook Typical of marijuana and illegal drug users
>>518669762>The State however would be democraticUnder fascism??? What the fuck are you talking about.>so why not let the workers of each corporation vote on the CEO they want in a democratic workplace?You're already perfectly free to do this under capitalism, it's just so inefficient that it doesn't usually happen, if you find a way to make it efficient you're welcome to do so as long as you don't use the barrel of a government gun.By the way, does it not concern you that literally everything you are advocating for is the exact same thing the WEF is advocating for?
>>518669990What I'm saying is that the "world" doesn't have a "central bank" it is has multiply banks each printing their own currency. We call these different banks "countries" and since the world has multiple countries there is no "central" bank of the world, you just have a collection of independent banks that have subjugated a bunch of other banks in particular areas.Technically the US dollar is the World Reserve Currency so there is kind of one central bank in the USA, but this only applies to international transactions.That's exactly why fiat currencies are a garbage scam that always loses value.Nazi Germany created a Labour-Backed currency. The currency had value based on the notion that the Labour-Notes were pegged to being able to purchase an hour of German labour. Thus rather than setting the minimum wage at certain amount of currency, the "minimum wage" is itself the thing that determines the currency's value.So if the currency loses real value that means the minimum wage is going down in real terms and if the currency gains real value that means the minimum wage is going up in real terms. What stabilizes the currency is that if you can purchase an hour of labour with the currency then the value is determined by how willing people are to do that labour. If the minimum wage is low then in order to provide for themselves people will become more willing to work more hours and thus more labour becomes available and so a currency which can purchase their labour becomes more inherently valuable. If the minimum wage is high people won't need to work as much so the currency becomes less valuable since it can purchase less labour. This means that it will tend to stabilize where it goes up in usefulness when it has low value, and goes down in usefulness when it has high value. Now nothing would stop people on the private market from using the labour notes at a rate of 2 per hour or half for an hour but the State would guarantee 1 per hour in its own dealings
>>518670513>The State however would be democratic. Under fascism??? What the fuck are you talking about.The State would be composed of Corporations, and the workers of those Corporations would be allowed to vote for the leaders of their corporations, so the corporations would be democratic. Thus the State is composed of democratic entities pursuing common goals. The State is democratic. >You're already perfectly free to do this under capitalism, it's just so inefficient that it doesn't usually happenNo its because the workers can't buy out a billion dollar corporation. Under Fascism the state would take over corporations and slowly democratize them over time.>as long as you don't use the barrel of a government gun.At first the State would become "partner" to the corporation and that gradually overtime would buy out the other partners. In some cases like with BlackRock, Brookfield, and other "asset managers" the Shareholders are retirees getting the asset manager to invest for them. In this case the State would take over the asset manager and give people the option to convert their shares into State Pensions which would enable the State to quickly acquire much control of the economy.>By the way, does it not concern you that literally everything you are advocating for is the exact same thing the WEF is advocating for?The WEF wants to buy out large corporations and democratize the workplace?
>>518670780>We call these different banks "countries" and since the world has multiple countries there is no "central" bank of the world, you just have a collection of independent banks that have subjugated a bunch of other banks in particular areas.Yes? That doesn't refute having multiple currencies.>Nazi Germany created a Labour-Backed currency.And it was a gigantic fraud, using the same fraudulent "labor theory of value" that Karl the scumbag Marx dreamed up, labor does not inherently create value and it never will, go do some labor punching a tree until your hand is bloody and see if it created any value, it's completely moronic and should have been abandoned long ago.You have a needlessly complex theory in fascist economics and it's based on assumptions that are just immediately recognizable as bullshit and just a cheap excuse to control and rob the population.
>>518671189>No its because the workers can't buy out a billion dollar corporation.I can't buy all of the ferrari's in the world, that doesn't mean i'm not free to do so, all of your definitions about things are mixed up and opaque.>The WEF wants to buy out large corporations and democratize the workplace?That's literally what Blackrock is doing right now with the help of the state. The destruction of shareholder capitalism and replacing it with stakeholder fascism.I started by asking you to justify taxation, which a fascist state obviously would do, and you dodged it, answer the question.
>>518651659>gold/silver was always a meme and was pushed only when the jew banking families had a large percentage of the world's gold. >>518637466>X = Y word>Y word = bad! low IQ post.
>>518659198>Capitalists" as individual people don' really exist anymore. Henry FordHenry Ford didn't call himself a capitalist, because he recognized that capitalism is a materialist jewish system that promotes parasitism, like communism.
>>518671540>X = Y wordDogs = Canines.Fascism = Socialism.Learn logic.
>>518671207A labour backed currency doesn't necessarily require one adhere to the "labour theory of value" (which comes from Adam Smith, not Karl Marx)All it means is that the minimum wage is set at 1 hour-note, so if you want to hire people for 1000 hours you will need 1000 hour-notes. People will only choose to hire people if they think they can figure out a way of using that labourer in a way that produces at least 1 hour-note of labour. You might be able to figure out a way to produce 2 hour-notes of value in 1 hour of labour, in which case, congratulations you just made 1 hour-note in profit!What can you do with that 1 hour-note of profit? Well you can hire someone for 1 hour.All it does is tie the currency to the minimum wage rather than the minimum wage to the currency.
>>518671501>That's literally what Blackrock is doing right now with the help of the state. The destruction of shareholder capitalism and replacing it with stakeholder fascism.See the infographic>>518665885
>>518671189Just because you vote for you boss doesnt mean he wont still be your boss, moreso when you need a permit to have that fabled manager elections you propose. Pure theater
>>518671540Every behavior that makes sense is a "meme," newfag. Learn words before using them.
>>518671827>All it means is that the minimum wage is set at 1 hour-note,that already exists, its called minimum wage
>>518672043>shiny rocks just makes sense to base an economy on nope. worker productivity? there we go.
the majority of pajeets on /pol/ try to hide the fact that they're pajeets. in addition to "leaving that part out" they will proactively, persistently misrepresent their true form. pajeets are all about assuming other people's roles, from today's outsourcing and replacement migration all the way back to thuggee bandits lying to travelers about who they were. pajeets are devoid of their own identity, making them the ideal globalized goyim. they don't want a home where they belong. all that means to them is "compete in squalor." much better to go somewhere nicer, built by other people, and do their jobs for less pay and live slum-barracks life in their suburbs. pajeets don't want to be home. they also don't want to be pajeets. jews know exactly how to play their insecurities and dopey ambitions like the innocent rube fresh off the bus from the cornfield. this is their new golem to replace the ones that don't love them anymore
>>518672275Yes that's the point... Literally the reason to use shiny rocks externally is because it allows for proper worker's wage pricing *for productivity.*Like I said, learn what words mean. Go read Hitler before posting on /pol/
>>518672094Currently the minimum wage is peg to a certain amount of currency, and the value of that currency goes down, meaning the minimum wage can go down.When you currency is pegged at being 1 hour-note, the minimum wage is what determines the value of the currency. Instead of the currency going down in value and brining the minimum down in real value with it, the minimum wage just floats but if it goes down in real terms that means the value of all currency goes down in real terms, and if the minimum wage goes up in real terms that means the value of all currency goes up in real terms.
>>518672001>Just because you vote for you boss doesnt mean he wont still be your bossIf you vote for the captain of your ship he gets to command you while the ship is on a voyage, but after the voyage the crew gets to decide if they want to keep him on as captain.Read Engels On Authorityhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm>Let us take by way of example a cotton spinning mill. The cotton must pass through at least six successive operations before it is reduced to the state of thread, and these operations take place for the most part in different rooms. Furthermore, keeping the machines going requires an engineer to look after the steam engine, mechanics to make the current repairs, and many other labourers whose business it is to transfer the products from one room to another, and so forth. All these workers, men, women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for individual autonomy. The workers must, therefore, first come to an understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed, must be observed by all, without any exception. Thereafter particular questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way. The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]
>>518672455>still making artificial attempts at gate keeping I've read everything he wrote at least twice. The NSDAP didn't base the Reichmark on fucking gold, they based it on average worker productivity. Do you know what you're even trying to say?
>>518671967You still haven't justified taxation, keep dodging it though. Fascist economics is a scam.
>>518672803>they based it on average worker productivity.LOL! How do you measure "worker productivity" without an economic unit itself? Made up bullshit.
Not sure I'll get a straight answer but what's the agreed upon opinion on Judaism in these circles?
>>518673274They think that jews are based and redpilled when they're in the nazi party helping to kill the jews from the ghettos but they don't like the lower class jews.
pure AI slop in this thread
>>518672700>>518672001To continue the analogy as to how this works with Corporations being organs of the state.>If you vote for the captain of your ship he gets to command you while the ship is on a voyage, but after the voyage the crew gets to decide if they want to keep him on as captain.But who gets to decide where and when the ship sails? That my friend is the State. That State has an entire fleet of ships whose collective voyages serve a larger purpose that each individual ship may only play a small part in.Who directs the goals of the state? You can have workplaces elections to determine your ship captains, and you can also have State elections that can be used to determine State goals. Thus you have incredibly direct democracy in your day to day life where you work, and you have a broadbased long term democracy where people can vote on what they may want State goals to be. Where the authoritarianism comes in is dealing with the medium term intermediate mechanism of connecting those things.
>>518673806Bro stop dodging my question about taxation or shut the fuck up.
>>518672996I might have conjured this up myself but didn't the Germans have some kind of 25% discount on taxes for every child you had? The reason they could do this is if the currency is backed by labour, if you produce more labourers then you have children has the anti-inflationary effect that taxes would have had, so if you raise children you help to give value to the currency and thus you don't need to pay as many taxes.
>>518673136If the workers can make X amount of steel in one hour of work on average then the currency is worth X amount of steel.
>>518674085That doesn't work as a unit of measurement because you'd have to have a unit for steel, a unit for gold, a unit for silver, a unit for wheat, a unit for chocolate, etc etc. Not to mention that has nothing to do with it's economic value. Now answer the question i've asked you 3 times.
>>518673274In the early Fascist party Jews could join. Italy had a low population of Jews and also had a low portion of Jewish involvement, but they were still over-represented relative to their population, but that was only because having any representation was likely going to result in over-representation based on how few Jews Italy had.Mussolini himself had several Jewish mistresses some coming from his Socialist days and others who followed him into the Fascist Party. I myself have had Jewish "mistresses" too. I however recognize the subversive issues involved with Jews and the problem Zionism poses. I however think that you really just need to discipline Jews as if you command them to do things they will respect you for it, and based on experience they've told me that me raising my voice in response to their nonsense gets them wet.When Italy decided to pursue an alliance with Germany, it was conditional on removing Jews from the Fascist Party and from positions of power and passing the "Fascist Manifesto on Race". Prior to this Italy had a kind of "cultural nationalism" where "race was a feeling, 95% at least" implying that made there are racial differences but Fascism viewed race mostly a social construct which might have some biological basis (5%) but the social aspect was more important.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_RaceOne needs to consider the different conditions of Germany and Italy to understand this discrepancy. Italy is more of a racial spectrum with Celt/Germans in the north, Latins in the middle, and Greeks/Arabs in the south/sicily (with Sardinia being a pure race all its own where they have one component that is shared with other europeans but actually lack a lot of the admixture that other europeans have alongside it). Italy also really didn't have a Jewish problem because there weren't that many of them, additionally the european component of Ashkenazi Jews likely derives from italians anyway.
>>518672803That average worker productivity needs a reference, otherwise you're just dividing by zero. By balancing public works and external trade, the Reichmark had actual value based on contracts instead of just melt value, that was ONLY available to trade German to German. You can't export the value on top of melt value. That's the quality of the German economy that makes it kike-proof.
>>518673274Aliens in skin-suits, hiding behind various institutions, using humanity as unwitting slaves.
>>518673274>>518674771Germany had an entirely different situation. Not only did they have more Jews, they also had the problem of Eastern European Jews migrating enmass to Germany during the Weimar Period. You also had them highly involved in the Versailles Treaty and currency speculation and promoting degeneracy. Under these conditions it makes sense that Italian Fascists would view Jews differently than German Fascists would. The Nazis were fundamentally correct that the Jews seemingly had it out for Germany specifically for some reason so I don't blame the Germans for taking out their rage on them, the Jews should have knocked it off. By contrast Jews in the Fascist Party mostly resulted in early Italian foreign policy ending up being in opposition to Germany, as there was a time where the Stresa Front was trying to create a British/French alliance with Italy against Germany.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stresa_FrontThe Austro-Fascists in the Italian-aligned Fatherland Front also let Jews join despite being explicitly catholic because naturally they would be opposed to Anschlusshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_Front_(Austria)When you put things in this context where the Jews seemingly had it out for Germany in particular, you can begin to understand why Jews would not be so much of a problem for other countries. However because the Jews had it out for Germany in particular the Germans demanded Jews be removed from the Fascist Party before they would form the Axis alliance. This is all perfectly understandable from everyone's perspective, and it really was the Jews targetting Germany which cause the problems. If the Jews had not targetted Germany there wouldn't have been a problem and it is likely Italian Fascism could have retained its cultural secular nationalist viewpoint.
>>518673979As long as central bank exists they can print currency causing inflation which is effectively taxation. If you want to go on some kind of Jacksonian Crusade against all central banks be my guest, but as long as central banks exists I will use them to create a labour backed currency.
>>518674347No because if you Mr businessman discover that the steel vs gold vs silver vs wheat is not balanced properly you can just engage in arbitrage and trade gold for silver and put things back in balance. I used steel as an example because steel is something where its available is based on how much your produce with labour, where as gold and silver is more based on rareness. Steel isn't rare, but it does take labour hours to produce it, so the currency based on labour is backed by steel and wheat more so than by gold and silver. Wheat is not just based on labour though, it is also based on land, so the currency is also in effect backed by German land as well as by labour. This is where the "lebensraum" stuff came in as if you had more land and therefore more potential wheat you could increase the value of the currency. This is why some people say that the National Socialist economy was based on war expansion, but this is mostly because they had the opportunity to take more land. If you did this in the United State you would have more land than you would need and the amount of wheat you produce would be based more on water availability than it would be on land availability.
>>518675432I was asking about taxation, such as income taxation, keep dodging the question.>>518675864>No because if you Mr businessman discover that the steel vs gold vs silver vs wheat is not balanced properly you can just engage in arbitrage and trade gold for silver and put things back in balance.Whatever. It still doesn't measure economic value. I've responded to every single one of your points, now answer my question i've asked 5 times or i'm going to stop responding to you.
>>518676864I told you I think they had a policy where your income taxes would be cut by 25% for every child you had up to four children. They can do this because the labour backed currency gets more inherent value by having more labourers so increasing the population has the same counter-inflationary effect that taxes would have under Modern Monterary Theory. MMT was created by a German in 1905 so that was the theory they were operating under.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Friedrich_Knapp
>>518677211>I told you I think they had a policy where your income taxes would be cut by 25% for every child you had up to four children.I'm asking you to justify the act of taxation. You have repeatedly failed to do so and instead just ignore it every single time. I think this concludes the subject.
>>518678072>justify the act of taxationohh taxation is theft I won't deny thatHowever lets say that the State owns a bunch of corporations that make profit. The profit of these State Corporations could fund the state instead of taxes.Now I ask you: is profit not just a non-State form of taxation? Are companies that make profit not "taxing" their workers the same way that State Corporations making profits are essentially taxing their populations?
WHERE IS COMRADE FEDERICO?
>>518678256>ohh taxation is theft I won't deny thatFair enough you finally answered the question, then every single fascist and communist state that ever existed has been a band of thieves.>Now I ask you: is profit not just a non-State form of taxation?No? You have to twist yourself into all kinds of mental gymnastics to believe that.I harvest a coconut on my farm, i sell it to a thirsty customer for a dollar, i have now made a dollar profit, somehow in your worldview that's taxation? No sane man would think that. You might want to rethink your first principles because you're redefining words to the point of them becoming completely meaningless in a meaningless worldview.I think your principle error is assuming the state is necessary or good, if you remove this false assumption you could actually make your 'businesses funding regional communities' thing work, that's quite the opposite of fascism though.
>>518678847>Fair enough you finally answered the question, then every single fascist and communist state that ever existed has been a band of thieves.So has every Liberal State and Feudal State and even states going back into antiquity as they have all had taxes. All states are mere legalized plunder. I will rephrase my point. If the State were to fund itself through the profits from State Monopolies, would you consider that to be a form of taxation and therefore theft?
>>518679094>All states are mere legalized plunder.Finally we agree, which is why fascism and communism are evil and the state must always be limited as much as possible. Read Hoppe.>>518679094>If the State were to fund itself through the profits from State Monopolies, would you consider that to be a form of taxation and therefore theft?You'd have to clarify what that would mean in action because it's too vague.For instance if the state says "You can't sell that wheat because it has to be sold by the state owned wheat corporations" and then when i try to sell it they arrest me or take my wheat, that would be assault and theft.If they fund their state wheat corps through money printing, that would be direct theft because they're stealing the value of my money via the threat of force and handing it to some state CEO.The irony is you could do everything you're saying without any state force.
>>518679548>Finally we agree, which is why fascism and communism are evil and the state must always be limited as much as possible. Read Hoppe.I'm fine with people making Hoppean communities that can secede from states. However there is a large industrialize economy located in major cities. The State exists to manage those parts of the world. The industrialized economy is where these mega corporations that would composed the organs of the state would be located. Fascism exists to handle industrial production, not how to organize idyllic communities. I did specifically say I was seeking to bring in left-wingers. If you personally want to be free from all states in an autonomous community then go right ahead. Why would I allow this though? The reason is that these autonomous communities would send excess children out into the industrial economy when they move to cities. You'll have no taxes because your contribution to the State would be the occasional child who leaves your community and joins the industrial economy. As such taxing you and reducing your potential for raising children would be counter-productive, so pro-Natalist Hoppean communities wouldn't be taxed because the point of these communities would be to produce children to increase the population.>clarify state monopoliesState Monopolies are formed when the State absorbs all the corporations producing a particular good into one State-Owned corporation.For your wheat example, Canada USED to have a wheat board where people had to sell their wheat into one big pile which would then be sold in bulk. Farmers are no longer required to sell to the Canada Wheat Board but what was left of the Canada Wheat Board was sold of to the Saudis for some reason. I'd reverse this in Fascist Canada and bring the Canadian Wheat Board out of the hands of the Saudis and back into the hands of Canadians.IDK if they ever prevented farmers from selling privately though.
>>518680163>However there is a large industrialize economy located in major cities.You can industrialize all you want but you can't ignore ethics unless you want a completely hellish society.>State Monopolies are formed when the State absorbs all the corporations producing a particular good into one State-Owned corporation.Well that would be quite obviously theft then because you're simply expropriating private property at the barrel of a government gun. The state itself is a monopoly, this is basically the same as what communist Russia did with minor ceremonial differences.
>>518680557>Well that would be quite obviously theft then because you're simply expropriating private property at the barrel of a government gunWell we'd offer to partner with them and then buy them out over time. As long as they agree to work towards state goals (like we need X steel partner firm needs to provide it and can profit as long as they deliver)>The state itself is a monopoly, this is basically the same as what communist Russia did with minor ceremonial differences.Well I'll let Gramsci how he perceived they were differentIn Italy capitalism has been able to develop insofar as the state has pressed on the peasant populations, especially in the South. Today you feel the urgency of this problem, so you promise a billion for Sardinia, you promise public works and hundreds of millions for the whole South; but to do serious concrete work you should start by restoring to Sardinia the 100-150 million in taxes that you extort from the Sardinian population every year! You should restore to the South the hundreds of millions in taxes which every year you extort from the Southern population.MUSSOLINI: You don't impose taxes in Russia! ...A VOICE: They steal in Russia, they don't pay taxes!GRAMSCI: That is not the question, honourable colleague, who should at least know the parliamentary reports on these questions which exist in the library. It does not deal with the normal bourgeouis mechanism of taxation: it deals with the fact that every year the state extorts from the Southern regions sums in taxes which it does not restore in any way, neither through services of any kind sums which the state extorts from the Southern peasant populations to give a base to the capitalism of northern Italy. [Interruptions, comments]. On this field of the contradictions of the Italian capitalist system there will necessarily form, notwithstanding the difficulty of building large organizations, the union of workers and peasants against the common enemy.
Fascists, explain in the most logical and cool-headed matter why you disagree with Marx's critique of capitalism. I want to hear your point of view; I'll disregard any non-intelligent answers like "cuz he was a commie hurr"
>>518682534I don't disagree with Marx's critique of capitalism. I literally cited Engels: On Authority to make a point about how the workplace can be democratized even if you still have to follow orders.Mussolini was literally a socialist, he just disagreed with socialist opposition to entering WW1 because he wanted to unify Italian speaking territory by taking it off the Austro-Hungarians and saw WW1 as a means to achieve that. Another thing that bothered him was he was originally opposed to the Italian invasion of Libya until the Libyans started massacring captured Italian troops and shattered visions of them being these peaceful noble savages like how the other socialists kept treating them and started to awaken a national conscious from deep within him.Fascists did not think Marx was wrong, they simply thought that Fascist had dialectically superseded Marxism as the experience of WW1 had demonstrated that national struggle had overridden class struggle, and so socialism could instead be achieved on a national basis rather than through the international proletariat. This isn't a disagreement on Marx's critique of capitalism but instead a disagreement on how to overcome it.
>>518682534Gramsci argued with the Fascists in the Italian parliament and on several occasions he threatened revolution and Mussolini just said that the Fascist party had more members that the Communists so they were certainly welcome to try. Gramsci even provides a critique of trying to incorporate the bourgeoisie in order to control them, arguing that the bourgeoisie will just end up taking over after you destroy the bourgeois organizations as they will form a tendency within Fascism>This law will not manage to slow down the movement which you yourselves are preparing in the country. Since freemasonry will enter the fascist party en masse and will form a tendency within it, it is clear that with this law you hope to impede the development of large worker and peasant organizations. That is the real value, the real meaning of the law>Some fascists still hazily remember the teachings of their old masters, from when they were revolutionary and socialist, and believe that a class cannot permanently remain so and develop itself up to the conquest of power without it having a party and an organization of the best and most conscious part of itself. There is something true in this sinister reactionary perversion of Marxist teachings. It is certainly very difficult for a class to reach the solution of its problems and to reach those ends which are built into its existence and into the general strength of society, without a vanguard constituting itself and carrying this class to the attainment of these ends>But it is not said that this statement is always true, such dogmatism is foreign to reactionary purposes! This is a law which serves for Italy, which must be applied in Italy, where the bourgeouisie has not managed in any way and will never manage to resolve in the first place the question of the Italian peasantry, to resolve the question of Southern Italy. Not for nothing is this law presented at the same time as some projects concerning the reclamation of the South
>>518682092>Well we'd offer to partner with them and then buy them out over time.Taking something via violence or the threat of it is theft, i can't believe i have to explain basic things like this to you people, unbelievable.Spare me the wall of sophistic text.
>>518682534Telling that you only want to talk to fascists and not capitalists, you socialists are all in the same basket. Fuck your dictatorship.
>>518682534Gramsci had a scathing critique ... until one realize literally every argument he was making against Fascism could be applicable to Russia given that at the time (1925) the Soviets were operating under the New Economic Policy which had reintroduced capitalism to Russia, so the only substantive critique he could level was that in Russia a party which called itself Communist was in charge which would someone avoid the issue of the bourgeoisie just joining the party and forming their own tendency within it by the repulsive power of the name "Communist Party" which I have to presume acts like garlic against bourgeois vampires, and the bourgeoisie would never dare join a party which called itself Communist but might join a party that calls itself Fascist.https://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/1925/05/speech.htm
>>518684468If you want to remain independent then fine we'll leave you alone and just outcompete you with nationalized firms that are created by merging all of your competition into one big block against you.
>>518684819In reality you'll either shut us down with violence, steal from us, or print a shit load of money thus stealing the value of money from both my business and the average person, which is what happened in every fascist or socialist regime in history.Also, why do you want to shut down and destroy small independent businesses? Are you an edgy satanist or something?
>>518685328I don't mean "small independent businesses" those are irrelevant. I mean if you have an actually important major industry and you aren't cooperating then we will just merge all the competition together and use the State's power to last longer selling at a loss to drive the non-compliant firms out of business. Why are we doing this? Because we need major industrial firms under state control in order to have a democratically centrally planned economy.
>>518685583Historically that's never how it's worked in a fascist economy but whatever enjoy your imagined fairytales of perfect fascism.
>>518685893Hey if you get to have "theorectical capitalism" and the communists get to have their "theoretical communism" I get to have my perfect "theoretical fascism"
>>518634971Fascists have never had a single or consistent economic idea. Even their ideas of nationhood and race differ dramatically.Fascists, in general, have all been some kind of socialist with the only exception being Pinochet.Fascism, socialism, communism all rose up in continental Europe and thus shared the common socialist ethos.
>>518686177>Fascists, in general, have all been some kind of socialist with the only exception being Pinochet.Pinochet wasn't a Fascist. Fascism does not mean "right-wing authoritarianism". Franco wasn't even a Fascist, he just had Fascists supporting him and he allowed them to do their little fascist experiments as long as they didn't bother him too much, but eventually he totally betrayed them when he opened up to the West and liberalized the Spanish economy starting in the 60s and turned the country into a resort for rich Brits.
>>518634971Natsoc economics is basically just do whatever works but the merchants are not allowed to control the government
>>518686340It is debated as to whether or not Pinochet was a fascists, however, the current widely accepted definition of fascism make Pinochet a fascist:"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology defined by a dictatorial leader, the forced suppression of opposition, and the subordination of individual interests to the state or a specific race. It originated in Italy in the early 20th century under Benito Mussolini before spreading to other countries."Pinochet executed socialists wherever he could find them, ended democracy, placed himself as an authoritarian dictator, ran terror campaigns of murder and rape against socialist, etc.The only major difference between Pinochet and the other historical fascists is that Pinochet liberated the markets (eradicating socialism), and eventually restored democracy and stepped down willingly.Pinochet is the closest form to a benevolent fascist.> betrayed them when he opened up to the West and liberalized the Spanish economy starting in the 60s and turned the country into a resort for rich Brits.You're thinking of Spain. Pinochet was in Chile. Spanish fascism was strictly socialist but, due to extreme poverty, they liberalized the economy under the new technocratic and western scholars which created the Spanish miracle of wealth and prosperity.
>>518685893You can avoid coercive measures that might destroy your business if you just cooperate with the state plan. Why wouldn't you anyway? It is guaranteed business!
>>518686440German National Socialist economies, as most fascist economics, was more tied up in political power than ideology itself. Where NAZI Germany largely controlled the price, product, quantity, ownership, etc. of production they also gave Bavarian farmers the right to own land privately and form a massive union cartel where the farmers could decide crop prices independently of the state. This was because Bavarian farmers were a major backbone in Hitler's political support and why NAZIs was associated with agricultural red necks and even embraced such derogatory terms because it showed support to the farmers.
>>518686577>Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideologyThis already disqualifies Pinochet imo, you cant be an ultranationalist and at the same time be a proxy ruler for globohomo like Pinochet was, if the CIA helps you to get in power its pretty safe to say you aren't ultranationalist or a fascist, its like saying Zelensky is a fascist because he uses authoritarian tactics to control Ukraine with a veneer of nationalism
>>518686577>It is debated as to whether or not Pinochet was a fascists, however, the current widely accepted definition of fascism make Pinochet a fascist:It's debated amongst people who have no idea what Fascism is. I'm a Fascist and I'm telling you that Pinochet wasn't a Fascist. Franco wasn't a Fascist either. The Falangists supported Franco and the Falangists were Fascists, but Franco himself wasn't a Fascist, he was just a strongman who allowed Fascists to operate in the background.
>>518686064I have theoretical capitalism but when i talk about how capitalism actually works in practice i also have real examples of capitalism, it seems like you only have your theoretical fascism and you 100% ignore all the actual real world examples because they're very inconvenient for you.
>>518686765But their ideology literally was that merchants due to their inherent nature of increasing profit at all costs should not be in control of the government, increasing profit at all costs is a hindrance for autarky for obvious reasons>they also gave Bavarian farmers the right to own land privately and form a massive union cartel where the farmers could decide crop prices independently of the stateThey did, a guild structure of sorts but if their guild structure would have tried to go against autarky they would have been told no you cant do that because security is more important than maximizing profit margins, its inefficient to micromanage economy from the top down, you just need to intervene if economic interests of whatever industry does not overlap with the interests of the nation
>>518686602>You can avoid coercive measures that might destroy your business if you just cooperate with the state plan.You can avoid coercive measures if you give me all your money, that's called theft, you know it, i know it, everyone knows it, but you want to dance around it with frilly language and sell everyone lies.
>>518687021I literally bring up Germany and Italy as positive examples. I'm rejecting Pinochet because he literally was just not a Fascist. Franco had Falangists working in the background but he abandoned them in favour of partnership with the West.We are on /pol/, Mussolini and Hitler are not inconvenient for me one bit.
>>518686855As is the case with all political ideologies, the definition that we use for them are always idealized, they are not true in practice.There is no such thing as a purely nationalist fascist, ironically, most fascists destroyed their original national identity in their effort to consolidate power into the dictatorial state.Italy used to be made up of many competing nation states with their own kingdoms. Italian fascism largely destroyed this to "unify" Italy, regardless of the racial, cultural, etc. differences. Italy even accepted Jews until NAZI Germany made it a condition of allegiance that Italy reject Jews.Pinochet, regardless of any CIA support, ultimately acted in every way as a fascism. Chile was not faced with any ethnic conflict, but his suppression of socialists was ultimately branded as a nationalist cause to protect and strengthen Chile.
>>518687102>I literally bring up Germany and Italy as positive examples.Are we talking about the same Germany which was nothing more than a pile of rubble after less than 15 years? Brother 20th century fascism is a meme ideology in the 21st century, you sound more like a technocrat than a fascist.
>>518687197>you lost a war fighting against the entire planet because for some reason both the capitalists and the communists teamed up to defeat you, that means your economic ideology is bad
>>518687095No not all the money, ofcourse the state can benefit a lot from a thriving business class but at the same time obviously the business class or the merchants in general cant be in control. Nations are made up from its people and said people have legitimate collective security and also economic interests, if the merchants go against those interests they have to be stopped, its common sense, in a fascist state there is one group of people who holds the reigns of power and thats not negotiable, the merchants dont get to run things from behind the scenes like in the US and modern in western countries generally
>>518686884They were all fascists. You being a fascists doesn't change this. Franco was generally recognized as a fascist by other fascist dictators at the time as well.Ironically, fascism comes from anarcho-syndicalism and ideology that Benito Mussolini originally supported before converting to corporatism. The "fascism" part of Italy simply came from unifying the Italian kingdoms into a new state of Italy. Basically any state that is nationalist, dictatorial, and opposing of left-wing version of socialism is a fascist, in its simplest terms.
>>518687095If the State Plan calls for X stuff and has Y money to do it with you can either comply with providing X stuff for Y money or we will take over your industry so that we can make X stuff with Y money on our own. Y money is probably the market rate anyway, so why wouldn't you just comply with the State plan?
>>518687365>Franco was generally recognized as a fascist by other fascist dictators at the time as well.Because he WAS a Fascist at the time in the sense that he was allowing Fascists to implement Fascism, but he personally wasn't taking a direct interest in it, and thus when the West decided to stop isolating him he moved on to something else because he wasn't an ideological Fascist.
>>518687060Generally, when a dictator takes control, they will attempt to either ally or control other elites (organizations of power) both to eliminate potential threats and consolidate power.Being against the merchants has pragmatic power strategy behind it, more so than anything ideological. Had NAZI German ideaology rose up in modern Germany today then the Bavarian farmers would have been just as controlled as the merchants simply because there are far fewer Bavarian farmers now and those farmers are very weak. In the past, farmers were a massive constituent.> but if their guild structure would have tried to go against autarky they would have been told noHitler went out of his way not to challenge the farmers, they were his base. if he lost support of the farmers, then NAZI Germany would cease to exist.
>>518687287Why did they get involved in a world war instead of remaning neutral like Switzerland? Oh right because they were a socialist war economy and needed to conquer to keep the ponzi scheme of fiat money going.But i know you're going to disagree with the most simple obvious truth, so why do YOU think they got involved in a world war?
>>518687434Bro at the end of the day if you want to take my business and i want to keep it you're going to have to take it from me with government violence, all state actions are enforced by violence and you know this, why are you being so deceptive?
>>518687349I don't give a shit about the interests of fascist governments.
>>518656457Kikes themselves hate it and that is more than enough for me.
>>518687159In some sense you are correct, Hitler for example was against what he would call petty nationalism, what I'm talking about and what Hitler was talking about is more like ethnic/racial nationalism and also during Hitlers time the national identity was transformed to become a modern interpretation of the germanic nation, it did not destroy their national identity it enhanced it imo>Italy used to be made up of many competing nation states with their own kingdoms. Italian fascism largely destroyed this to "unify" ItalyWhich is ethnic/racial nationalism, a king is not the nation, the people collectively are, did Genghis Khan destroy the mongol national identity when he unified the bickering tribes? Ofcourse not, he literally forged it anew and it became orders of magnitude more powerful>Pinochet, regardless of any CIA support, ultimately acted in every way as a fascismThats an oxymoron, you cant act like a fascist and at the same time do the bidding of international jewish finance, these two things completely contradictory, would you say Zelensky is a fascist too? Thats ridiculous, you could argue that maybe Pinochet was a fascist if he only used the CIA to get into power and then do whats good for his nation but thats not what happened
>>518687566They wanted to unify with the German speaking city of Danzig which also happened to be in the way of physically connecting a part of their territory to the rest of the country but Britain and France decide to make guarantees they couldn't back up to Poland which resulted in them saying no and so Germany had to take over its neighbours in order to fight France and Britain as they wouldn't accept peace as the alternative would have been to just sit and wait for Britain and France to attack them repeatedly forever.
>>518687530Spain stayed neutral during WW2 for two reasons, 1) Spain was just coming out of a Civil War against the anarchist, socialists, and communists which depleted it economically and militarily, and 2) Franco likely saw the western nations as being vastly over powered.Franco embraced socialist for a long time but this caused poverty, he then turned to the technocrats and western scholars to liberate the economy, this cause the Spanish Miracle of wealth and prosperity.> No true fascistLolHe was a fascist by practically any definition of the word.
>>518687532Hitler was not against the merchants, he only expected of them what he expected from all germans, to be loyal to the nation, he exerted no more control over them than the average joe, you cant exist freely in a natsoc state and put things like money above your nation, thats a road to work camp type of living conditions>Hitler went out of his way not to challenge the farmersThe farmers went out of their way to be loyal to the nation, there is no point in ''challenging'' them for no reason, the point of fascist/natsoc and all third position ideologies is for the state to have unity among its populace, class cooperation not class conflict
>>518687655I don't want to take your business I want enough materials to fit into the state plan which requires those materials. I will purchase these materials in big contracts if you allow me to, or if you don't want to provide the materials we will create out own version of your business to outcompete you. Yes this competitor will have the backing of the state so it won't be "fair", but you had your chance to just supply the materials at a fair price.
>>518687778>They wanted to unify with the German speaking city of DanzigSo all of the absolutely retarded bloodshed could have simply been avoided by just not doing that, but that retarded militaristic fascist government desperately tried to do it anyway, knowing that it would probably antagonize everyone, and then you fascists blame the rest of the world.Buddy i wasn't born yesterday what's the real reason you're shilling for a dictatorship?
>>518687728Yeah anarcho capitalism is about concentrating all power to the merchants with zero considerations for anyone else so its understandable, I dont see why you would think its a good thing if you yourself are not a billionaire merchant type of character which you obviously aren't
>>518687872>I will purchase these materials in big contracts if you allow me to, or if you don't want to provide the materials we will create out own version of your business to outcompete you.That's not what they ACTUALLY did in fascist regimes, they simply seized the businesses, which is theft, again and again you are painting a completely fake fairytale picture of what fascism is, you just don't want to deal in reality.
>>518687734> Thats an oxymoron, you cant act like a fascist and at the same time do the bidding of international jewish financeJewish banks helped fund and facilitate the NAZI German government, is NAZI Germany now not fascist?> Thats ridiculous, you could argue that maybe Pinochet was a fascist if he only used the CIA to get into power and then do whats good for his nation but thats not what happenedThat is pretty much exactly what happened. The only difference is that Pinochet had an exit strategy where he could live and see Chile as a prosperous state again. Unlike Hitler and friends who only saw the end of a gun barrel.
>>518687952Yeah cause fascism doesn't concentrate power and wealth into a minority of violent state goons DURRRRR
>>518687916Lets just say that they never unify with Danzig, then East Prussia is forever disconnected and they need to keep using ships to connect it to the rest of the country when the Soviets and British keep growing their navies and the Soviets are taking over the Baltics giving a border with East Prussia. Keep in mind too that this city used to be part of Germany 2 decades prior and the population wanted to return because they found the whole Versailles treaty to be bullshit. Yes they could have just ignored it, but if they were willing to go to war over Danzig they probably would have gone to war down the road anyway, so instead of waiting for the British and French to attack you in 5 years where you still will not have your land connected you can get your land connected quickly and surprise the French before they are fully prepared. If Germany had sat and done nothing do you think everyone would have just tolerated them?
>>518687869> Hitler was not against the merchantsThe NAZI German state seized direct control over all private production companies. The state determine what products ought to be made, how they are made, the quantity, price, and ultimately the ownership. Economists Ludwig Von Mises likened the factory owners to pensioners and passive investors because the state simply took control of all funds and resources and gave the owners a dividend. The factories themselves were not in control by the owners. Only the Bavarian farmers remained independent and exerted direct influence over the NAZI party since a large chunk of the NAZI party came from the Bavarian Farmers League. Hitler himself also sought to destroy the Prussian (nobility) culture and traditions due to the political influence of the league.
>>518688081Yeah they did but did Hitler then go on to do their bidding? Like I said if Pinochet only used the CIA and then immediately stopped doing the bidding of international jewish finance you might have a case, in my opinion you cant be a nationalist and then work for international jewish finance, not even jews who do that are nationalists imo even though its largely their thing>That is pretty much exactly what happenedWell I want to hear an explanation how he dumped the CIA and being a proxy for globohomo, I never heard that story, I doubt it a lot tho>>518688131No thats the entire point, to have legitimate government rule instead of having people whos only goal is to maximize profit rule over the people
>>518688365Pinochet restored democracy, restored free markets, and stepped down from power. The exact reasons are unsure, could be CIA/Jewish banker influence or, more likely, he knew the lifespans of dictators is not very long and would be better off stepping down and living a comfy life. At the time, he finished of the socialists, that was his mission and he accomplished it. You can call free markets some kind of Jewish international conspiracy, but I personally prefer free markets and would not consider it Jewish
>>518688266Whatever man we both know fiat economies are inflationary and they often start wars to plunder resources and clamp down on their disgruntled populations back home, so they can keep the ponzi scheme going for another day, you're just cooking up a big pile of bullshit and i dont believe anything you say.Here's one for you, if you can disprove with reason that the NAP is the best basis of any moral theory, then i'll actually take what you say seriously for real.
>>518688365>Brooooo we want government be good good and not government be bad badNewsflash taxcattle, all governments concentrate wealth and power extremely, wether you're in a dictatorship or a democracy.
>>518688338German businesses were not directly controlled by the state so no he did not seize control over them, he implemented policies that they would have to follow to get closer to autarky, it was no like in the USSR at all>The factories themselves were not in control by the owners.Yes they were until ofcourse ww2 put the entire country into martial law style war economy, government oversight over big business does not mean that the government is directly in control of the companies, it means that the government sets the parameters under which everyone has to operate>Hitler himself also sought to destroy the Prussian (nobility) culture and traditions due to the political influence of the league.If the culture of the prussian nobility is against the national project then yeah obviously they need to be reigned in, Prussian nobility is not more important than the german nation collectively
>>518634971Some degree of corporatism is good, but not too much.The idea should be to balance experts votes on technical matters with workers national syndicates pressure (who can only act if the leader approves).
>>518688549Modern fiat currency economies are NOT inflationary in the sense that they only contribute to inflation at a very mild degree. This is because modern fiat systems now have varying control mechanisms such as asset purchase/sale mechanisms which ultimately limits how much fiat can be printed and provides a natural deflation mechanism.In the past, fiat currencies could be printed with no controls what-so-ever. But now central banks have to buy bonds and this mechanism more or less makes runaway inflation a near impossibility.And all this said, inflation is only ever a concern if you do not invest in some kind of productive asset such as stocks, businesses, rental real estate, etc. Modern inflation is nothing if you invest since all productive assets must, by nature account for and exceed inflation.> Here's one for you, if you can disprove with reason that the NAP is the best basis of any moral theory, then i'll actually take what you say seriously for real.Anyone can make a sound and valid argument for XYZ ideology. What does this prove? The ultimate test is not an argument, it's nature.
>>518688544Free market is ofcourse jewish, it allows companies to become transnational and offshore vital industry to foreign countries, for example what happened with US and China in the 80s, China was not a serious competitor to the US back then but now it is only because of free market policies. Security always trumps economic interests of the merchant class, mercantilism is inherently internationalistic and erodes the power of the nation if left unchecked by the state, the jews became extremely powerful precisely because of their international banking networks that were not restricted by the states in which they operated in
>>518634971>Fascist EconomicsWe're not fascists here, retard. That's just a demented label the libturds like to assign to their enemies.Fascism involves very rigid state control of the populace, something that is antithetical to human creative expression, joy, and sense of freedom.
>>518688638> German businesses were not directly controlled by the stateThey were though, even before WW2.> he implemented policies that they would have to follow to get closer to autarkyAutarky is incredibly stupid. His economic advisors were against it, especially vocal against it when Hitler floated his idea to invade Poland to gain the western iron ore fields in Poland.> If the culture of the prussian nobility is against the national project then yeah obviously they need to be reigned in, Prussian nobility is not more important than the german nation collectivelyPrussian nobility had far more cultural and historical roots than anything NAZI Germany created.Anyways, having kingdoms that speak the same language doesn't mean they must all be the same country. The USA and Britain both speak English, should they be the same country?
>>518688842Free markets existed before Judaism. Even tribal societies figured this out. Free markets simply allow for a better means to allocate scarce resources. No other system ever found has proved itself to be better then free markets.
>>518635177Only for DAF conscripts and invaders waiting for deportation.
>>518688836>Anyone can make a sound and valid argument for XYZ ideology. What does this prove? The ultimate test is not an argument, it's nature.GG, i don't even think you have a moral theory, every horrific act is equally acceptable in your world, some of us believe that there are truths that have some objectivity, or that logic is useful for a civilized society, and that 2+2=5 is not a valid argument and can be proven to be false. You're right in one respect though, people are free to believe in lies and deceptions, they just can't avoid the consequences of believing in them.
>>518688948Sounds like communism too.
>>518688948God bless you.
>>518665885People should not be allowed to vote for whatever CEO is more popular, though.Select them based on objective success.
>>518689502It's all the same shit with different excuses for control and different ideological schizo word salads that the rulers brainwashed their useful idiots with like Das Kapital and Mein Kampf.
>>518689041>They were though, even before WW2.They were in a sense that the German state set the policy that they had to follow but they were not directly controlled by the state its not like in the USSR where the state took direct control>Autarky is incredibly stupid. His economic advisors were against itAutarky is extremely good economic policy, the primary goal is to be self sufficient in whatever is vital to national security, all countries should primarily concern themselves with exactly this kind of direction because security of the nation is always more important than economic interests of the merchant class>Prussian nobility had far more cultural and historical roots than anything NAZI Germany created.The german nation existed long before prussian nobility, if they are a hindrance to a national revival and a project of unification I think its completely normal and reasonable to intervene>Anyways, having kingdoms that speak the same language doesn't mean they must all be the same countryIdeally you should want unity among your own ethnic group and to a lesser extent race so I disagree, lets use China as an example again, its in the interests of the chinese people to unify Taiwan with mainland China simply because of security reasons for the nation, as we can see a Taiwan did not remain an independent chinese outpost they became a proxy for an empire across the pacific ocean. I dunno what to say, I think all this stuff is completely self explanatory>The USA and Britain both speak English, should they be the same country?It would have been in the interests of the english people yes, ofcourse, obviously language is not the same thing as ethnicity/race though so in modern times it makes far less sense than in 1770 but here we also come to the question of imperialism in general, its incredibly difficult to control vast provinces that are separated by the tyranny of distance and massive oceans that can sometimes be a total net negative
>>518689519>Select them based on objective success.Hmm maybe we should use a unit of economic value that people can exchange for goods and services and they can choose how to use it to get most value out of it, we can call it money, that's what a free market is.
>>518688338>Economists Ludwig Von Mises likened the factory owners to pensioners and passive investors because the state simply took control of all funds and resources and gave the owners a dividendI'm going to take that as an endorsement of my plan to convert shareholders and passive investors with BlackRock etc into pensioners. Thanks Mises.
>>518689173>No other system ever found has proved itself to be better then free markets.Better for what? Like I already said fascists and natsocs put things like security above the economic interests of the merchant class. To clarify I am not advocating for absolute autarky, ofcourse trade with other nations can be beneficial but there are some sectors of the economy that should be restricted, primarily those that are vital to national security, if you move large parts of your industry to foreign countries and offshore labour it can have a very negative impact in the future for security, like how the US created its biggest rival in modern China
>>518689450I am amoral, just as nature is amoral (neither moral nor immoral). Truth is an ideal, an ideal which can never be attained, only sought after. To know the truth would mean that you know through all time and space when something is true, and this is not possible for non-god like beings.Math is not in the same realm as science. Math is merely a language humans invented to help us describe the physical world. Thus 2 + 2 = 4 remains true not by physical fact, but by definition. If we ever come across physical facts where 2 + 2 = 5 then we will need to create new definition to accommodate these observations.If you want an argument against the NAP then you need not look at further than the mere state of existence of all natural things in the natural world. The NAP is never followed. What is followed is the unwritten nature of power. Might makes right is the ultimate decider of rights, not NAP, not any other ideology. Humans, as all organisms, are diverse in their talents, this creates a heterogenous power distribution which ultimately will cause a coalescence of hierarchical power structures. Thus preempting any influence of the NAP or any other idealized ideology. There is no example among humans or any other social species where this is not the case, not one.
>>518634971Pontificating on economics is stupid when we don't even have our countries free of Jewish rule. It's like wasting time and energy on what color your drapes are going to be when you haven't even built your house yet. I'm honestly skeptical of threads like this, considering how many offramps there are of discussing concrete real-time issues like Israel and Jewish power. Oh, you want us to focus on hypothetical economic systems instead? Interesting.
>>518636197
>>518689742Notice how you don't want to stop giving blackrock favorable government contracts you just want to be the crony in charge, my plan is to deport you to a desert island where you can have your crapitalist fascist state.
>>518689977I want to abolish blackrock and other "asset managers" entirely and convert all the people invested with them into pensioners so that the State can take on all the assets.
>>518689634> They were in a sense that the German state set the policy that they had to follow but they were not directly controlled by the state its not like in the USSR where the state took direct controlNAZI Germany controlled, price, quantity, production method, and what ought to be produced. You can have "control" in the most meaningless sense of the term.> Autarky is extremely good economic policyEvery state, every company, that has ever tried this has failed, often to its own destruction. It is NEVER good as it creates extreme inefficiencies, stretches human resources thin, and tends to expose the subject to competitors.Free trade (with or without a free market) has always proven far more advantageous both for economies and militaries. Not to mentions forms a broad allegiance among many other entities. In this way you are not just one nation among many, but a powerful coalition.> The german nation existed long before prussian nobilityLOL NOBefore Germany was the Prussian kingdoms. Otto Von Bismarck unified the Prussian kingdoms into Germany (and ultimately set the stage for WW2 with his excessive use of treaties in continental Europe).> lets use China as an example again, its in the interests of the chinese people to unify Taiwan with mainland ChinaChina is a communist abomination. Taiwan is a far superior nation.
fascist economics always leads to much poorer results than a free market. it's like people haven't learned from turkey and argentina
>>518690122Blocks your path
>>518689977>my plan is to deport you to a desert island where you can have your crapitalist fascist state.Thats never going to happen because you are an anarcho capitalist, the entire point of your ideology is to never use state power and always to be as impotent as possible when it comes to implementing any kind of change to anything by using power to your advantage. Being a libertarian or ancap is like having a limp dick while you want to have sex, not gonna happen
Man, what year is it. This is one of the better threads I have seen in agesThanks OP leaf>>518634971>63 near all effort posts besides the occasional pithy remarkMfw
>>518689806> Better for what? For all people in free society.I'm not advocating absolute economic freedom. Just that the effects of economic freedom are far more beneficial then anything else. Ultimately what makes an economy free is not ideology, its the open competition between a diversity of elites. The moment one elite gains superior power, your freedom will cease to exist, economic and otherwise. The elite have decided to limit free trade in some ways only because it is beneficial to them.
i thought it was just kill a jew and live in his mansion off the infinite supply of gibs stipened onto the cards he had in his wallet
>>518689858Then please enter a thread talking about how chicks suck, or it's ogre and you should an hero and you need to fap constantly or some such nonsensePlenty of those
>>518689823>nature is amoralProve it.>Truth is an ideal, an ideal which can never be attained, only sought after.Do you exist? Yes, that is true. I'm not claiming we can know all truths about everything.>Math is merely a language humans invented to help us describe the physical world.I'm not trying to make some kind of platonic argument, merely that we can have some level of understanding of nature, no matter how obscured.>Might makes rightIs a meme, but since you're amoral you have no moral theory and cannot prescribe what is right.>hierarchical power structures.The NAP doesn't preclude heirarchy, you're mixing it up with communist theories.I'm simply saying that we can understand some things about nature, i'm not saying that the ideal is physically real, even though it may have a reality in some sense, but that's a subject a little beyond the scope of economics.
>>518690074>Bro just fully merge blackrock with the power of the government, everything will go fine.Klaus Schwab is that you?
>>518690109>Every state, every company, that has ever tried this has failedGermany punched far above its weight though, they failed because they were outnumbered so badly and how do you fail by restricting industries that are vital to national security anyway? That doesn't even make sense, US used to be an industrial giant but moved large parts of it to China, this was beneficial in the short term but extremely negative in the long term, I just dont see it but I guess you'll explain why>Not to mentions forms a broad allegiance among many other entities. In this way you are not just one nation among many, but a powerful coalition.Yeah international jewish finance became very powerful this way but that does not mean its a good thing at all, if you open the pandoras box for merchant rule then the merchants are going to attempt to do what they do, even if they aren't jewish>LOL NOThe german nation is much older than the kingdoms period stemming from the HRE period, dont be stupid anon, I think you and I use a different definition of what a nation is if you dont understand that the german nation was running around back in the classical era aswel, HRE and Otto Bismark is very recent history>China is a communist abomination. Taiwan is a far superior nation.Sure you can definetly argue that but from a chinese point of view, meaning the interests of the chinese people as a racial collective it is undoubtedly better to have a unified state for all of them than to have an island next door that is controlled by a foreign entity, in the long term thats ofcourse desirable, you dont even really need to talk about politics to understand that
>>518690231>the entire point of your ideology is to never use state powerCorrect, luckily decentralized power always defeats centralized power long-term, you're going to find out the hard way.
>>518690438Kek this.
>>518690301What does free society mean though? Our countries are called free societies even though a jewish international finance cabal controls them, freedom is when a nation has sovereignity>I'm not advocating absolute economic freedomThen we probably shouldn't even argue about this because I'm not arguing for total autarky either>The moment one elite gains superior power, your freedom will cease to existInteresting argument, I'd say its absolutely vital to have a unified ruling class but it has to be an ideologically motivated ruling class, there is something to be said about systems with cut-throat politics and lots of competition though, in that type of system the most capable leader necessarily rises to the top eventually, for example Hitler came into power because of the political and economic chaos of Weimar Germany, I'd have to think about that much more to give any kind of coherent thoughts, to me my individual freedom is less important than the collective freedom of my people from foreign rule
>>518635378Keeping kikes away from the means of exchange is the one thing that could solve the most problems in this world, besides just permanently exiling them from human nations anyway.
>>518690445>> nature is amoral> Prove it.The natural world itself, made up of physical processes, does not possess consciousness or intentionality. Therefore, it is illogical to apply moral categories to nature itself. As philosopher Richard Dawkins famously stated, the universe is one of "pitiless indifference".>> Truth is an ideal, an ideal which can never be attained, only sought after.> Do you exist? Yes, that is true. I'm not claiming we can know all truths about everything.I could be a figment of your imagination or a mere automaton. Since you are not omniscient, you do not know and may never know.>> Math is merely a language humans invented to help us describe the physical world.> I'm not trying to make some kind of platonic argument, merely that we can have some level of understanding of nature, no matter how obscured.You do not have an understanding of nature. You can only have a probability of your understanding and the hope that consistency of your observations are maintained. >> Might makes right> Is a meme, but since you're amoral you have no moral theory and cannot prescribe what is right.Might makes right is an observation from nature that was put to pen by Max Stirner. Might makes right is what determines rights. Not right as in arguments or facts, but rights as in claims to life, liberty, and property. A lion has a right to the gazelles body to eat when he uses his might to capture and kill that gazelle (and fend off competitors in the process).>> hierarchical power structures.> The NAP doesn't preclude heirarchy, you're mixing it up with communist theories.The NAP does not preclude hierarchies, it misunderstands what hierarchies are. All hierarchies are formed and maintained from might makes right. The existence of hierarchical must naturally violate the NAP. There is no hierarchy among humans or anywhere in nature where this is not the case, some form of might is used to persuade others.
>>518690667De-centralized power is just a phase towards centralization, you're describing various levels of anarchy and in anarchy ironically ancaps will get smoked because they are hyper individualists and cant defend their interests against people with a more collectivist ethos, you are weak alone compared to groups of people who have unity, actually you will find this out the hard way if there is enough de-centralization
>>518690438Yeah those are the off-ramps I was talking about. Thanks for boosting my point, retard
>>518691001Kek, imagine thinking government officials have unity, they are a pack of hyenas who constantly eat eachother at the drop of a hat, history tends towards decentralization and greater understanding of rights, every decade a new country is born, but keep seething and fighting against the tide for satan.
>>518651844>>518652069I’ve always taken the “socialism” of National Socialism for example to just be the extent to which the state holds strictly anti-capitalist principles for the benefit of the people; the extent to which the benefit to society is allowed to outweigh the requirement to acquire more capital.
>>518690637> Germany punched far above its weight thoughAnd died for being so stupid to punch above its weight.> how do you fail by restricting industries that are vital to national security anyway? I never said I was against this. In fact, I am in favour of a variety of protectionist policies such as incubation protectionism and security protectionism (to prevent the spread of advantageous technologies and critical resources).> The german nation is much older than the kingdoms period stemming from the HRE periodBefore the rise of the Prussian kingdom, the geographic area of modern Germany was home to various Celtic and Germanic tribes, the Frankish Kingdom, and, most prominently, the Holy Roman Empire, a multi-state political entity that lasted for a millennium. Before Prussian kingdoms there wasn't even a semblance of German nationality. It's not a coincidence that Bismarck unified Germany when the Prussian kingdoms were present. The Prussian kingdoms were the backbone of German culture. Not the Romans, notice how Germans do not speak Latin.> Sure you can definetly argue that but from a chinese point of viewIt would be better for Taiwan or a political faction similar to Taiwan to control mainland China. The Taiwanese make it very clear that free markets create an abundance of peace and prosperity while the Chinese communism has created near unparallel suffering.
>>518690892> What does free society mean though? Our countries are called free societies even though a jewish international finance cabal controls them, freedom is when a nation has sovereignityI don't believe in the whole "Jewish international finance cabal" boogyman. I think there are far more elites out there than merely just Jews.> freedom is when a nation has sovereignityPlenty of communist states today are sovereign, but they are not free societies. > I'd say its absolutely vital to have a unified ruling class but it has to be an ideologically motivated ruling classElites do not follow ideology, they create and manipulate ideology to influence the masses, to use the masses as fodder for power.
>>518673986>25% discount on taxes for every child you had?Young married couples had the right to request a loan from the German state, that loan was partially paid in money and partially in vouchers that could be used at the NS equivalent of IKEA. The loan had no interest and for every child the married couple have, 25% of the loan is automatically forgiven, so with four children, they don't pay back a single Reichsmark. The also had like 10 years until the first payment was due.
>>518691444>I don’t believe in the whole jewish bogeymanNow I can see why these posts seem a little off.
>>518690892>What does free society mean though?The right to speak your mind even if other people don't like it, but ultimately, the right to do what you want as long as you don't initiate force or fraud on others.
>>518690949>The natural world itself, made up of physical processes, does not possess consciousness or intentionality.You are conscious, you think you're somehow seperate from the natural world?>As philosopher Richard Dawkins famously stated, the universe is one of "pitiless indifference".Kek I think Richard Dawkins genuinely believes what he says, but I think even he has said he was far too hard on religion. Also i don't think he's a philosopher he's a scientist and a very proficient one.>I could be a figment of your imagination or a mere automaton.Meh, you know i'm not and i know you're not, neither of us behave as if we were because it's quite obvious we both exist. Of course you could be an AI bot here but if we were talking face to face it would be different, until clones or whatever come along at least.>You do not have an understanding of nature. You can only have a probability of your understanding and the hope that consistency of your observations are maintained.This is kind of a nonsensical statement, I think you don't even believe in any truth at all otherwise you couldn't come up with such a thing. The problem is even if you don't believe in objective truth you would still have to pretend it exists in order to have any kind of coherent conversation about the real world.>Might makes right is what determines rights.Rights themselves are a moral prescriptive claim, I think you're confusing "I have the right to do X" with "I can do X" or they're just the same thing to you, which doesn't make any logical sense.>The NAP does not preclude hierarchies, it misunderstands what hierarchies are.The NAP doesn't even have anything to say about heirarchies, it's completely irrelevant to the principle
>>518690949Also you want to read an interesting defense of utilitarian Ancapism (which i don't believe in) "The machinery of freedom" is a good book.
>>518691519Bankers are bankers, it doesn't matter if they are Jewish, they will do all the same things, more or less. Even Jewish bankers funded NAZI Germany.Now days, Banks no longer have major stakeholders because banks just aren't that profitable anymore. Our modern economies have vastly increased the quantity of opportunities and diversity of investments.Banks are now relatively small players among the many other great industries.You can rid the world of Jewish bankers, but there will be Jewish XYZ. You can rid yourself of all Jews but you will be left with non-Jews who do roughly the same things as the Jews.
>>518691519Yeah everyone who disagrees with you is a Jew, you're very smart.
>>518634971>be chud>tell people to spend their time on reading the fascist manifesto.based retard
>>518691664> You are conscious, you think you're somehow seperate from the natural world?All things in the universe are bound by physical laws of cause and effect. I am a biochemical consequence of inanimate atomic substances. My assembly does not make me separate from nature, which means I can not possess the ideal of consciousness/free will/intentionality (or whatever word people try to ascribe to humans to justify being separate from nature).> Kek I think Richard Dawkins genuinely believes what he says, but I think even he has said he was far too hard on religion. Also i don't think he's a philosopher he's a scientist and a very proficient one.Someone can be a philosopher and a scientist, he's certainly made enough well founded arguments to claim himself as a philosopher. And I don't know if he ever said he was too hard on religion, I know he has doubled down on his arguments against religion.> Meh, you know i'm not and i know you're not, neither of us behave as if we were because it's quite obvious we both exist.I behave as if I know only because observations remain consistent enough and have formed a probability. However, it is impossible to declare truth.In Empiricism, truth is not a possibility, a theory can not be true, it can only be "Not falsified yet".> The problem is even if you don't believe in objective truth you would still have to pretend it exists in order to have any kind of coherent conversation about the real world.Not pretend. Just use probability and hope of consistency. It's the best anyone can attain.> Rights themselves are a moral prescriptive claim, I think you're confusing "I have the right to do X" with "I can do X" or they're just the same thing to you, which doesn't make any logical sense.Might makes right makes both claims correct. A right has nothing to do with morality, it is merely a behavioral observation. A male lion that beats the old lion, takes the lioness for his own has won the right to fuck the lioness.
>>518691155>history tends towards decentralizationLiterally zero evidence of that but yeah keep living in fantasy if you want, some people legit think they are women if they chop off their cock and balls too>>518691274>And died for being so stupid to punch above its weight.The other alternative was to submit to jewish international finance, in hindsight you can say Hitler went about his goals the wrong way but I dont think you can say that his goals were not nationalistic and good from that point of view>I never said I was against this. In fact, I am in favour of a variety of protectionist policiesWell thats great, then we dont need to argue about it anymore>Before the rise of the Prussian kingdom, the geographic area of modern Germany was home to various Celtic and Germanic tribesSo the german nation existed as I said, yeah I agree, we just have a different definition of what a nation is, you think nation state is a nation and I use nation to describe what the definition of a nation is>It would be better for Taiwan or a political faction similar to Taiwan to control mainland ChinaSure that is reasonable but what I was talking about was the chinese nation irrespective of politics>>518691444>I don't believe in the whole "Jewish international finance cabal" boogymanThen you should lurk more and read books about the history of how the modern neoliberal system was created, the primary component is jewish international finance, its not a conspiracy theory its completely out there in the open, all you need to do is look>Elites do not follow ideology, they create and manipulate ideology to influence the massesThey do if the entire system and the incentive structure is based on that, earlier you said Hitler was loyal to the farmers because they were a major part of his support network, thats how things are ideally handled, you have to incentivise the ruling class to be loyal to their nation via using ideology and incentive structures created via ideology
>>518691664>> The NAP does not preclude hierarchies, it misunderstands what hierarchies are.> The NAP doesn't even have anything to say about heirarchies, it's completely irrelevant to the principleThis is a fatal flaw in the NAP. If the NAP can not control the actions of hierarchies, then it falls apart entirely.>>518691704I'm already aware of this work. However, David Freidman, IIRC believes in Consequentialist Ancap, not utilitarian ancap.His type of ancap is more grounded, but it still underestimates how power flows in society. All examples he has ever given a consequentialist ancap society has ultimately been taken over by a hierarchy which formed a state.
>>518691648If you are speaking about subverting the nation by spreading for example communism I dont think thats freedom thats just treason, I could argue about bunch of restriction to free speech because they are proven to be initiators of large scale calamities in the past like the early USSR, nazis burned a bunch of books for a very good reason, who even decides what initiates force or is fraud in the ancap system? The merchants are in control because they have the biggest pool of resources so they do or then some other armed faction prevents them, this is like 101 of statecraft that ancaps and libertarians do not understand
>>518692117>My assembly does not make me separate from nature, which means I can not possess the ideal of consciousness/free will/intentionality (or whatever word people try to ascribe to humans to justify being separate from nature).You think you're not conscious? Kek.>I am a biochemical consequence of inanimate atomic substances.Your biochemicals are telling you that you are just biochemicals, that's circular logic, there are limits to empricism, science was never supposed to be dogmatically materialist.>However, it is impossible to declare truth.Kek you've just declared that it is true that it is impossible to declare truth, such contradictions regularly occur from the empiricist worldview.>A right has nothing to do with morality, it is merely a behavioral observation.That's a strange definition that most people don't use but i'll just have to disagree.I'm not anti-empirical, but let me give you an argument against hard empiricism: All of the evidence you gather is only made possible by your consciousness of it, thus, empricism could not exist without the foundation of consciousness, and therefore cannot be the foundation of any correct or useful theory. Hard empiricism is a dead end, you can't make any claims about anything which even impedes empirical study itself.
>>518692155> The other alternative was to submit to jewish international finance, in hindsight you can say Hitler went about his goals the wrong way but I dont think you can say that his goals were not nationalistic and good from that point of viewFreeing Germany from the alliance debt was good, but then he went full retard nationalist. He basically got a get out of jail free card and shot himself in the foot immediately after. Imagine having your country conquered and indebted, causing your country to go into poverty, and then freeing your country and the conquerors more or less not caring and letting you free, making it wealthy and then... attacking the very same conquerors that defeated you before and LOSING AGAIN> So the german nation existed as I said, yeah I agree, we just have a different definition of what a nation is, you think nation state is a nation and I use nation to describe what the definition of a nation isThe only thing those tribes had in common was they spoke some forms of ancient German. Celts were very far removed from the Prussian kingdoms. The last remaining Germans to adhere to some Celtic tribal traditions were the Swiss, and Hitler hated the Swiss.> Sure that is reasonable but what I was talking about was the chinese nation irrespective of politicsIn the past, China used to be made up of a multitude of competing warlords. Then the Eight Nations Alliance conquered China and made it possible for China to unify.It would have been better for the Chinese to maintain their own unique nations rather than lump them all into the China we have today which is an abomination.It would have been better to have a China made of a federation of nearly independent states (like the USA) rather than the grotesque centralized monster it is now. Even better if China was broken up entirely so that the peoples would have greater control over their local matters and resources.Centralization give rise to incredible inefficiency problems and abuses.
>>518692238>Consequentialist Ancap, not utilitarian ancap.Ah yes I got them mixed up.
>>518692155> Then you should lurk more and read books about the history of how the modern neoliberal system was created, the primary component is jewish international finance, its not a conspiracy theory its completely out there in the open, all you need to do is lookI've read enough. I'm not convinced that's how it was, and certainly not convinced that's how it is now. Bank owners and management are an open mix of a plethora of different ethnicities.> They do if the entire system and the incentive structure is based on that, earlier you said Hitler was loyal to the farmers because they were a major part of his support network, thats how things are ideally handled, you have to incentivise the ruling class to be loyal to their nation via using ideology and incentive structures created via ideologyHitler did what he did not because of ideology but because of political power. The farmers themselves were motivated by wealth (land ownership) and independence from monarchy. Ideology has very little to do with anything. People wanted security and food on the table.If you see a group that are being influenced by ideology, then you are looking at pawns, the useful idiots.
I'm against any economy or government, fascism to me is more a form of communal individuality which can be more likely found in the wandering drifters and homeless of the world who are what I call tyrant individualists; those whose end-all-be-all revolves around uplifting other individuals but creating break-away communities and cloisters of uplifted individuals. If you're against faggotry and retardation and niggers and jews you should be practicing social eugenics and high-concept psychological terrorism on soft-target groups. Your goal should be to select 4-6 people who you would want to live with in the apocalypse and convince them to train with you night and day with the intention of taking on whatever life may throw at them, and then carving out your individual ideals from the land as conquerors and competitors. Such things as economics and politics are beneath such a mentality, they're basically just toys for jew-lovers and cowards who want to skate around the fact that direct action and violence are the only stages of conflict which matter in this world, and any form of passivity or diplomacy is merely extending the duration of corruption so that it may seep further.
