It's also the hinge upon which all of Marxism rests. But it's bogus.
>>520265334sex
Why?
That's right goy, your labor is meaningless
>>520266196you can spend 10,000 hours polishing a turd, it's still a turd
>>520266260It's funny how this retarded strawman exists (LTV never says labor for labor's sake creates value out of thin air, just that valuable things derive their value from some sort of labor, weather that be say, mining a diamond out of the ground or the work that goes into refining it) but these finance capital mfers be trading buttcoins, csgo knives and AI stocks everyone already knows is a meme bubble for trillions
its not an exclusively marxist concept. its used in basic capitalist economics as well
>>520266713>just that valuable things derive their value from some sort of laborWhich is a meaningless platitude.
>>520266713>this retarded strawman>goes on to explain why it's not a strawman at allyou're actually fucking retarded lmao
>>520266713Wow, I never really looked at it like that before. What do you do for work? Can you break this down with some real world examples from your personal experience?
>>520267422>>520267517how's your csgo knife retirement plan working out
>>520265334It is but isn't simultaneously, their accounting of value is the cost to produce. I mean the cost *does* have value, it's different than market value to someone else though.
>>520265868Is an ounce of gold mined and refined by robots more or less valuable then an ounce of gold mined by a thousand slaves using pickaxes and bonfires?
>>520266713The concept of value is meaningless unless you can quantify the value in a way that enables you to compare the value of one good/service to another.
>>520267927But to the seller, it is worth that. That's really the difference between the two.
>>520265334Communism and capitalism are just commercials for Jewish power. It's a fake dichotomy you retards. A country full of 110 IQ whites makes any economic system work. Any system built on fake kikebux denominated in debt fails. None of this is complicated.
>>520265334don't look up bagger 293[spoiler]matches the workload of over 40,000 workers and requires a crew of only five people to operate[/spoiler]
>>520267927The value is the same in both cases, the question is who the money goes to when it's sold
Nah, it goes like this.Sex= valueAll money is just a roundabout way to get sex/
LVT wasn’t created by Marx and the whole “all labor is equal” thing is a blatant strawman and lie. Marx literally says the opposite in chapter 1 of Capital. I have (((no idea))) why that narrative continually (((gets pushed))) obviously a child’s labor is different than say, a doctors. Also he literally talks about the importance of machines maximizing labor output with his example being a loom. So far all of the arguments ITT are literal strawman lies that not only does Marx not say any of these things, he says the exact opposite, but sure, continue to listen to jews and people who have never read a single word of Marx to form your opinions on it instead of just reading it yourself. It’s not some secret. Das Kapital is almost 200 years old and it’s openly available online for free. Just to read it. Stop listening to retards who have no idea what they are talking about and just go read it for yourself. Marx was not an idiot.
Yes. It's all bullshit. All the theories and models are bullshit with zero real basis anymore.We live in a world where money is entirely imaginary and the value rests on nothing. When the currency dies they just reset it and start printing from the ground up, has happened to every single currency that has existed and will keep on happening.Energy could also be free as we have nuclear, but it would rock the control systems too hard so they refuse to build it.Good chunk of jobs are just make believe nonsense, that exists only so we can pretend that the zombie companies are functional and growing. Also so women and nigs get hired and we can pretend equality.The entire system is a kike charade to prop up an ancient control scheme that's preventing us from existing in semi post scarcity society and sacrifices people in jobs they don't even want to do.
>>520268801But why doesn't the gold made by slaves have more value because it required more labor?
>>520265334>Hurrr durrr I press a button on a machine to make a thing>I should get paid same as man who spent his whole life inventing the machine durrrr>Hurrrrrrr durrrrrrrrcommunists have literally never put a single thought into what they believe whatsoever. They just read things that were written by people who "try too hard to sound smart" and then they parrot those things back at each other because they think it makes them sound smart. If you take like 5 minutes to just think about communism with any sort of logic it makes no sense whatsoever
I see. Must be why my financial advisor charges by the hour
>>520269440Would the slaves sell the gold for less than what it cost to produce? This is the problem you run into.
>>520269440Why does the mine owner sell mined gold ore to the buyer rather than just selling the right to mine x cubic meters of his gold quarry?
>>520269539>how is it fair that the people who put in the most time and work reap the most reward?! >i've worked parttime here for 5 months, i deserve partial ownership of this company!
>>520265334Don't let Jews siphon off your labor with Usury.
>>520265334Yes and no. In the Marxist jewish sense, yes.In the National Socialist sense of having a labor backed currency, and therefore the higher the quality and dependency of your labor the more valuable your money, no. It's one of the most ingenious ways of doing it.
>>520265334>Labor Theory of Value is just retardedYes it is.The Subjective theory of value is superior, even if imperfect.
I read Capital because it is important in the history of economic theory and god damn that shits a slog. I've read Decline and fall of the Roman Empire three times, Im used to incredibly long and dry books, but this nearly killed me. The first 15% of the first volume could be replaced with 1 shirt = 20 linen and be exactly as understandable. These people wouldn't know brevity if it hit them in the skull with an ice axe.
>>520266260this
>>520266713a literal word salad.you're a retard.
>>520266713Marx even specifies that it's the socially necessary amount of labor (ie redundant labor won't add more value). Retard neolibs just seethe and strawman because they can't disprove it.
>>520265334Did you just realize that communism is retarded? Good for you.
>>520265334How is it bogus?All of the other things you clowns claim is the real basis of value, like Demand and Quality are literally add-ons to Labor. Without the labor, there is no quality, or demand, or even supply.At the heart of everything is labor that was done one way or another.Skill and Quality can increase or decrease the value, but whether it goes up or down, it's based on labor being done.>>520268171This is always posted by people who don't spend any amount of time at all with a woman.>>520267927The value of the gold is based purely on the amount of labor necessary to extract it. AI and Robots don't appear out of thin air, retard.Money or Currency, regardless of the form it takes, is a coupon for a fraction of a person's life. i.e. I give you a fraction of my life and in exchange you give me 1 currency unit, whether it's a digital credit, a piece of a paper, or a shiny rock. Gold and Silver were used in ancient times because they didn't degrade over time, not because they had any other inherent value. They were still used as compensation for a fraction of my time spent laboring for somebody else. Things like Talent, Experience, Quality, Education all add to the value of my time that I spend laboring, which is why the person who flips burgers after a five minute orientation doesn't deserve the wage of a physician or engineer, but at the base of everything is still a fraction of my life being traded to somebody else for a unit of currency that can be spent elsewhere.
>>520266713This is retarded. If I give the best craftsmen a piece of wood and a single chisel he will not create a great table. The value doesn't directly come from labor. It is a mixture of labor, raw material, and tools. Then you have other value coming from image like branding and recognition. Which is to say a good portion of the value is coming not from labor but capital.
>>520269539>CommunismYeah. That Labor is the source of all value is also espoused by Adam Smith, the father of Capitalism.
>>520266713>It's not all labor chud>just the labor for the goods that are in high demand
>>520268171You can compare the utility of a finished product to the raw materials used to make it. You're not very bright if you wrote that post without considering this.
>>520265334
>>520268367That's actually super insightful, even though you may be a retard. Would Communism work if it was just in a high IQ white nation? Is it really just blood?
>>520269228Marx was also a Jew, retard.
>>520267927See>>520271372
>>520271760Adam Smith is wrong too. If I find a chunk of gold on the ground, is it worth less because no labor has gone into it?
>>520270171Most companies already offer that in the form of pension plans and 401k matching plans that let you buy company stock. They usually start paying in once you've passed 90 days with the company.Most people who argue over this are stunted adolescents, whether they're communists or libertarians, the ideal society they see is where they are the hero and have everything. Libertarians think the world starts from zero the moment they come to agree with Atlas Shrugged and think they'll be the winners if only everybody would get out of the way, not realizing that the already-rich will be the ones enforcing the NAP on their sorry poor broke asses, while Communists can't math so they don't understand that when you divide a billion dollars among three hundred million people, everybody only gets about three dollars, they just see all the zeroes and think "That should be mine!"
>>520272066Marx was an atheist and hated religion, especially jews. "Opiate of the masses" and all that.
>>520272213Literally yes. The whole reason gold is valuable is because you don't find it just laying around on the ground.
>>520272293
>>520272478based Bakunin.
>>520272478A literal who screeds about Marx cause he got owned at the Hague Congress lmao. That the best you got?
>>520272884>Bakunin>Literal WhoAnon, if you're not going to be open to anything that you don't already know, you've already lost.
>>520272884Do these ten planks sound like good ideas to you? It's Marx's own summary of his Communist Manifesto
>>520272337Ok, so gold that is further in the ground and requires more labor is get out is more expensive than gold closer to the surface, retard? No. It doesn't. This is a kindergarten theory of value and needs to die already.All material is valued as a decentralized set of relativistic value matrices. Your labor is only useful insofar as it generates a higher value inside that matrix; i.e. turning raw ore into refined ore or refined ore into a specialized product). You labor can also have a negative value on the node you are working on, if you are a fuck up. Labor has no "base value" just like material has no "base value".
>>520273015Ask a normie if they know who Bakunin is.
>>520272293You're a kike, aren't you? That shit hasn't worked in 50 years. >Let's play dumb and pretend my bloodline is just a religion.
>>520265334Well yeah, Marx apparently didn't realise that people are fucking retarded, so it's indeed irrelevant.Value is all about marketing and circlejerking with your jewish friends.
>>520273113Taking back everything Jewish bankers have stolen from me? Yeah, sounds based actually.
>>520273533It says the government gets to own everything instead. Even your cell phone and bicycle because they're "means of communication/transportation"
>>520266260That argument supports Marxist theories, retard. Also Indian mass immigration.Since according to your logic that turd he made is worth one turd, which isn't the reality of the matter. If it's an egirl turd that's worth like 500 turds, and with marketing easily reaches 2000 turds in value.Now if jews also start investing in it you're looking at 10000 turds per turd.
>>520273710Mixing up personal vs private property. Low IQ.
>>520265334Good Lord I need to see her work a Black cock to creamy completion. Her face dripping with viscous pearl white Black semen. Oh my God, strands of ropey semen glaze her face like a cinnamon bun.
>>520267651>>520267927Value based economics on demand is wrong
>>520273971Wrong how? It's purely a matter of perspective.
Resource scarcity is something that we often stop thinking about because we have a lot of shit, but in many cases, it ends up being the fulcrum. Gold is rare so no matter how we mined and processed it, it’s worth a lot.Concurrently, women that are considered exceptionally attractive by the majority are, by definition, scarce.
>>520273209Jesus you're retarded.Why isn't Silver as valuable as gold?
>>520265334The value of the work depends on how much the product is sold for. If the worker takes one hour to make a product that sells for 100 dollars, then negotiations for their wage start at 100 dollars an hour. Then the worker can be informed about how much the raw materials cost, how much the equipment used costs, and so on, and this can determine how much the actual wage might be. Right now there is no real market for wages because the employer always knows how much the workers labor is worth, but it's almost impossible for the worker to get that information. All they know for sure is that they're being paid less than they're worth.
>>520273276Ask a normie if they know who Adam Smith is.
>>520266713Then you had those gigantic stones some Pacific Islanders used as money. Occasionally they didn't do anything with them, they just switched ownership on a theoretical level. What labour was involved with these stones?themselves?
>>520274025That's not quite true either.Gold isn't useful, therefore it has little intrinsic value.Supply and demand doesn't sufficiently explain it either, because people want it mainly because supply is low.>low supply increases demandBecause retardation and market circlejerking. It's no different from artificial scarcity.Case dismissed.
Labor theory is sound but incomplete. You need to factor in the amount of time needed also. Time is often times more valuable than raw labor. This is why time preference is something that needs to be learned along with LTV.
>>520266713> Valuable things derive value from labor.Wrong again...Or at least that the value is proportional to the labor. No one is arguing labor can't or doesn't add value but that it sometime adds massive amounts of value, sometimes it adds none or near none.
>>520267927a single robot is a product of hundreds of thousands of humans by itself, this is not an even comparison
>>520269228That’s not what the LTV is dumbass. Why don’t you actually read the book you claim you read. At the heart of the LTV is this idea that the thing from which the production of a commodity is able to generate surplus value is labor. People work, with capital inputs, and create commodities which are sold on a market. It’s taken as a given that those commodities have surplus value which is then hoovered up by the firm and thus the owner of capital, but Marxists insist the origin of the surplus value is the labor and thus surplus value is owed to the laborers and this justifies the laborers seizing the means of production (mechanism of surplus value).
>>520273811"Centralizing the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the State" is unambiguous. Private cell phones and private cars are the primary means of communication and transportation in the USA.Also if you're just talking about cell phone towers, then the 1st Amendment may not apply because you're communicating on government property
>>520274282>Gold isn't usefulYes it is. Even discounting its unique properties that make it highly sought after by technologists, it’s considered pleasant to look at by the majority. That combined with its scarcity makes it expensive.That might seem like a silly utility, but the concept of necessity becomes quite abstract when we no longer need to scavenge for food to survive.
its all about supply and demand. Stuff like Labor Theory of Value are just completely detached from the real world. I dont get how anyone can look at the world or common sense and think otherwise
>>520274752Where does supply come from?
>>520274282Of course, you could argue that the origin of the culture in which gold is considered beautiful comes from scarcity alone, but I would argue that the culture is what matters, and the origin of the culture is irrelevant in this context.
>>520274523It's not like the capital holder shouldn't get anything. Even in a near-communist system with the state owning the means of production there will be taxes.Real communism is idealist gobbledygook and Marx made no secret of that; gotta figure that out as you move closer to that utopian fantasy.
LTV is retarded but it’s even worse than that because Marx blatantly glosses over pricing constraints which are essential to economic analysis and he even goes a step further to publish blatantly incorrect mathematics in his seminal text.
>>520274581>it’s considered pleasant to look at by the majority.Indians had tons of Gold and decorated everything up with it, and it was "pleasant to look at" and had so much value to them that they literally buried it with their dead.
>>520269228LTV always strikes me as unnecessary and convoluted. You need the concept of "socially necessary labor time" for it to make any sense at all, but isn't that basically the same as "productivity"? Machines displace humans in production, production becomes more efficient, more crap can be churned out in a given amount of time, etc. All this is contained in a commonsense understanding of productivity growth. You could even argue profits will fall in the long-term simply due to productivity growth causing prices to fall as things become more abundant/easier to produce, with no need for "organic composition of capital" concepts or value theory at all. It's easy to look around and see the relative prices of food, consumer goods, etc. have fallen since the 19th century as our productive capacity to produce them has grown. LTV is just German autism getting lost in unnecessary attempts at abstract logic/philosophical proofs.
>>520274581The fact it's yellow isn't useful.What it's useful for is infrared insulation, for instance, and making malleable electric contacts, but the quantities required there are minimal.Furthermore: for your supposed aesthetic value gold plating is equivalent (and cheap as fuck). It looks the same.>game over
>>520274820Marxism has no practical method. It never has, and never will. Built into Marxism is a fanciful delusion that the collective labor can ever meaningfully own (exclusively I might add) the means of production and overcome all the problems of input and market pricing. It’s pure delusion.
>>520274807from labor. And, as we all know, the higher the supply, the lower the value. whast your point
>>520275000>aesthetic value goldYou’re right in that gold’s value isn’t purely aesthetic, especially when you could just use a similar looking dye, but nevertheless, people derive cultural value from things being made of gold. Once again, the origin of that culture doesn’t matter, only the culture.
>>520275013It's good for war though. A state-run economy is a war economy, it can effectively mass produce things like drones, tanks or artillery shells
>>520274974This is why time preference is important. The time it takes to produce something usually factors into its cost.
>>520266260>Some people might think that if the value of a commodity is determined by the quantity of labour spent on it, the more idle and unskilful the labourer, the more valuable would his commodity be, because more time would be required in its production. The labour, however, that forms the substance of value, is homogeneous human labour, expenditure of one uniform labour power. The total labour power of society, which is embodied in the sum total of the values of all commodities produced by that society, counts here as one homogeneous mass of human labour power, composed though it be of innumerable individual units. Each of these units is the same as any other, so far as it has the character of the average labour power of society, and takes effect as such; that is, so far as it requires for producing a commodity, no more time than is needed on an average, no more than is socially necessary. The labour time socially necessary is that required to produce an article under the normal conditions of production, and with the average degree of skill and intensity prevalent at the time. The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value. Capital volume 1, chapter 1, right after the preface. Fucking read nigga, please.
>>520274545Means of transportation and communication refers to the states ability to produce those items and the underlying infrastructure required to use them, not the individual cars, cellphones, etc. Examples: BYD, Huawei, roads, cell towers, subways... Also, the first amendment specifically protects you from the government. Not sure what point you're even trying to make.
>>520275228Communists always lose though.
>>520275543To be fair, there’s really only one example of a proper ideological conflict.
>>520271631>The value of the gold is based purely on the amount of labor necessary to extract it.no it isnt lmaohow about you explain the value of a lottery ticket or a gucci bag just to see how truly retarded that sentence is
>>520275543Ayo dis nigga never heard of WWII or Vietnam
>>520274223There is a way for the worker to know how much his work is worth. It's called going to another company that is willing to pay more. Do this enough times and eventually you'll find the ceiling for how much your work is worth. It's not a coincidence that the people who change jobs every 2 years are paid a lot more than the people who decide to stay with the same company. One group is literally data mining to determine how much their labor is worth while the other group never finds out this information.
>>520272253common core?
>>520270171>the neoliberal house niggerThe reason that he isn't on TV more is because there's no need for him to be on TV. We live in his world already, and he snipes at socialists for "failing", when there are thriving socialist societies outside of the US. China and Cuba both have better healthcare than the US - and it's free! In fact, Americans often visit Cuba for healthcare.Imagine, seething at socialists, but running to them when you need insulin!
>>520275195I didn't say its value was purely aesthetic, look again at >>520274282If it was it wouldn't be that valuable.The main mechanism is its (fairly reliable and predictable) scarcity increasing demand, as an investment vehicle or store of value that, at least generally, is proof against inflation, and even has a slight tendency to increase, in part thanks to growth in other areas, like population.>more people means more people want to own goldThat's both very real and very stupid, and also applies to platinum, osmium and such.
>>520265334True that. Also most of the stuff that Marx said that was only half-retard instead of full retard was all come up with by this guy who Marx read and then expanded on with his special brand of retardation.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith
>>520268367Somewhat true statement. The system must be efficient to work on a large scale so certain economic systems which are not efficient simply will not allow a very advanced society to exist.
>>520277261All mainstream economists should be shot. Exhume the dead ones and shoot their skeletons.
>>520268367That said, the most efficient economic system won't work if scammers like jeets/jews are mucking it up, and infinity retards acting as deadweight on everyone.
>>520269340100000000000000000% agreed
>>520269228Do communists even follow what Marx actually taught though or do they just use communism as a proxy for free gibes, trannyism, and other retarded shit that would never have been okay in the past? There's a huge difference between Suma Theologica Christianity vs actual Christians today. Same thing surely with Marxism in theory vs actual self-identifying commies today.
Her right knee has a spoopy face in itShe is the devil confirmed
>>520270171Just because you put a lot of time into work and work really hard doesn't mean the output is quality or that the input is valuable or the responsibilities are the same etc. There's a lot of variables besides what you mentioned.
>>520270823The Communist Manifesto is at least short.It's like Ayn Rand "The Virtue of Selfishness" very short and concise and to the point vs that other shit Ayn Rand wrote "Atlas Shrugged" that just goes on and on forever and doesn't even entertain me.
>>520275484I will never understand what drives leftists to be so atrociously long-winded. Maybe it's because of their deluded self-importance. Be concise.
>>520266196If weakling libtard faggots didn't exist kikes would have no power because all political authority would be derived from raw force the rule of the knife and gun, kikes cannot survive in such a system. The cruel hateful rural whites will rise and exterminate billions simply by denying them the necessities of life. Sink every shit, bomb every damn, drop agent orange on every field. Death should rule this world.
>>520271631>Things like Talent, Experience, Quality, Education all add to the value of my time that I spend laboring, which is why the person who flips burgers after a five minute orientation doesn't deserve the wage of a physician or engineer, but at the base of everything is still a fraction of my life being traded to somebody else for a unit of currency that can be spent elsewhere.If it's about time invested then the burger flipper and the engineer should make the same amount of money in a lifetime. The burger flipper would start making money earlier because no having to spend 5-10 years in education beforehand.Yet it doesn't work like that. It's not about time-invested the engineer is also able to do something that not everyone can do, so his work is more valuable.
>>520273209Correct.>>520274188How is your question even relevant?
>>520266260Yes, rent seeking have no value. Just as the communists all believe.
>>520278336That's not how politics works. That needs to happen but your idea that political authority derives only from the use of force is just wrong. There's more variables at play in creating political legitimacy. You need for example a mythos (the current one is the holohoax shit) that gives legitimacy to the rulers, you need also consistency and fairness, etc. all sorts of things you can do for people to have trust in you and see you as a legitimate authority/government.
>>520266713>valuable things derive their value from some sort of laborUhh, what's the labor cost of owning a pussy?
>>520269340TRVKE delivered right hereThe more you think about it, the sillier it becomes
Value isn't something inherant and obvious to humanity beings otherwise water or food would be more expensive than a watch, value is determined by demand and demand can be generated by manipulation techniques as known as (((marketing))).
>>520265334>ima nigger-loving faggotOP thinks capitalistsimport hordes and hordes of shitskins into white countriesbecause they subjectively value cheap non-white labor.
>>520265334>oy vey they say our paper is worthless
>>520280914>those damned Dutchmenlol me the Dutchman
>>520265334American/European laborers do not have the means of production. China does.
>>520274839I'm gonna see what /sci/ does with this.
>>520265334Late stage capitalism and communism are identical systems both a system in which a rich statecorp owns everything and you the prole own nothing equally, its deliberately written by the rich (via Engels) to trick the prole goyim to speedrun towards Late Stage Capitalism. Its actaully genius in a very jewish way
>>520283205Look at the Soviet Union for example a Communist state right bht its identical to late stage capitalism. Modern China same thing just another Statecorp
>>520266713>valuable things derive their value from some sort of laborThis is a concerningly retarded take
>>520267927how is anyone supposed to answer that when the robot exists entirely in your fucking head? how much labour does the robot take to produce and maintain? you could ask the same question about leprechauns and it would make as much sense
>>520278166This is a book dedicated to the general public. If you want to explain something to a lot of midwitted people who already brought the expectation that they're reading a book with them then being comprehensive and clear might take precedent over being concise and witty. If you can do all four at once, kudos and more power to you, but often it's more of a tug of war.
>>520266713land rights are valueable despite labor not being neccessary, the government can sell an empty piece of forrest or desert, untouched by human labor, and just the piece of paper that you now own that land is a type of value.Its maybe potential future labor that makes the land valueable (e.g. you get mining rights and suspect there are diamonds that can be mined there, even without a single diamond having been extracted, there's value in holding the rights over who can extract the diamonds)
Sweeney girl or her management is fucking genius.
>>520266713>just that valuable things derive their value from some sort of laborWhich is retarded. Labour induces their COST, but not necessarily their value. Their value is subjective.Land for example has quite a lot of value simply by existing; no labour went into a spot of land but it nonetheless has value, even if it's COMPLETELY undeveloped, raw primeval forest say, for its potential - which is subjective. A person with no interest in developing land might not consider it to have value. A person interested in developing land would assign it a lot of value. A speculator might assign it value depending on whether or not they figure the developers would want to buy it later.But labour doesn't give it value.
>>520265334>Labor Theory of Value is just retarded.
>>520265583As usual, I don't think women understand the catastrophic repercussions of trying to make sex work considered "real work". If they manage to accomplish this ridiculous feat, for example, a typical employer could include blow jobs as part of a woman's duties. Not only would it be perfectly legal to ask your secretary to stay late so you can fuck her, it would normal and ordinary and she could be fired for refusing.
>>520265334Supply and demand is the true source of value Get fucked commies
>>520266196...because you steal the value through theft and inflation.
