Can someone explain?
>>524209605Adam got punished because he wasn't a puppet. Can someone explain?
God will continue to punish us until we become like puppets. Can someone explain?
>>524209708Adam got punished because he didn’t keep his woman in line.
All signs point to God wanting puppets. And yet people say God doesn't want puppets, and that puppets are somehow wrong? Can someone explain?
>>524209853He got punished because he didn't make the right choice every time. He made the wrong choice, and God punished him for it. If he would have been like a puppet, God wouldn't have punished him.
You are loosh cattle.
>>524209605So what is it? Are we supposed to be like puppets or not? Why are we being punished if we're not supposed to be like puppets?>>524210657
>>524209605Your logic is,>Adam had a choice.>He made the wrong choice.>God punished him.>If God punishes wrong choices, then what He really wants is creatures who never have a wrong choice available.>Therefore God wants puppets.The whole thing sounds like a petulant child raging against a parent. "If you punish me for getting it wrong, you must want me not to be free at all." You do not punish a child because you hate freedom and want a robot. You punish because you take their freedom seriously. You believe they are capable of better, and love demands you confront and correct them. If they were literally incapable of doing otherwise, there would be nothing to confront, nothing to correct, nothing to praise or blame. The same is true in Genesis. The fact that God can be angry with Adam and Eve is not proof that He secretly wanted puppets. It is proof that He created them as real moral beings. He speaks with them, warns them, gives them a command, questions them, judges them, and then clothes them and promises a Savior. None of that makes any sense or means anything if they are meant to be marionettes whose strings He forgot to pull. In other words, if He wanted puppets, he would have made puppets. He didn't. He wanted creatures created with free will to choose Him, and in Adam's case, he didn't. If God wanted puppets, the story would be over before it began. There would be no tree, no serpent, no command, no “you may” and “you shall not,” no warning about death. There would be no walking in the garden in the cool of the day, no honest grief in “where are you.” There would just be an empty garden with wind up toys that can never do anything but what they are told. The fact that God holds Adam accountable does not show He wanted a puppet. It shows He wanted a real son, with real power to say yes or no. You are angry that God gave you a will that matters and then treats you as if it matters.
>>524209605oh its you again, making random statements into what God should do >>524210025anyway, about this 'puppets' thing you're stuck on - The Bible says that when God makes the world new and gives believers new perfect bodies that our natures wont want to sin anymore and that we wont sin at all ever again. He is going to do this for us and it will be wonderful.
>>524210830>then what He really wants is creatures who never have a wrong choice available.Umm no, he wants creatures who make the right choice every time. Which according to you people, are puppets.
>>524210846>The Bible says that when God makes the world new and gives believers new perfect bodies that our natures wont want to sin anymore and that we wont sin at all ever again.Ummm, why didn't he do this from the start? If God knows how to do it properly, then why didn't he already?
>>524211044Nice numbers. But you're angry and retarded. You have never murdered a child. You will never murder a child. In that sense, you will always make the “right choice” on that question. Does that make you a puppet on that point. Obviously not. You are a free person whose moral sense and love make that option unthinkable. Your will is real, and precisely because it is real, it is settled in that one place.
>>524211185Ive already tried to give you some answers to that in the lat thread but you ignored them.
>>524210830Why wasn't the child created in such a way that he wouldn't ever, BY HIMSELF and FREELY, do the wrong thing? In other words, properly, correctly. Why make him worse than he could have been?
>>524210830>there would be nothing to confront, nothing to correct, nothing to praise or blame.Yes, there would be no reason to punish them. It seems to me that God, along with you people, have a very big problem, with NOT hurting people. Every solution that is presented is rejected on the grounds that it doesn't hurt people. Why do you insist on hurting people? I don't get it.
>>524211412>why didn't God do what i think He should have done alreadythis is all the entire thread is going to be about, no matter what anyone tries to help OP grasp.
>>524211412Because we're discussing semitic nonsense tales badly translated
>>524211349He is ignoring anything that is inconvenient for his rage-filled worldview.>>524211412You are asking for the end of the story at the beginning, then calling God evil for not skipping the story. There is a difference between being created good, and having grown into a stable, tested goodness. Irenaeus of Lyons addresses this very directly. He says that Adam was created good, but as a child, not as a finished man. A baby is good as a baby, but is not yet solid, wise, mature. God "could indeed have made man perfect from the first" in His own power, “but man could not receive it, being only recently created,” just as a newborn cannot bear the food or responsibility of an adult. The creature has to grow into what God intends him to be. This is the part you abhor and rage against. How could He do this to you? We are made in the image, but we are called to become like God. Image is the gift. Likeness is the journey.
>>524211626I've been watching Mexican baseball all day Paco, looks like a comfy time.
God punished Adam and Eve cus they broke his only rule. They could've fucked all the animals, burned the whole garden down. They could've done anything and God would've been fine, but they broke the rule and he told them what'd happen if they did.Actually, he didn't even give them the full punishment. He warned them that he'd kill them but all he did was say get out.Imagine you go to your friends house. They say "help yourself to whatever is in the fridge, but don't drink the last Guinness. If you do I'll shoot you"So you go to the fridge and his wife appears.>Surely anon, if you drink this Guinness, you will be like my husband. He won't kill you.and you fall for it. You drink the Guinness and what does your friend do? He tells you to go home and sets up some crazy fence around his house.Good going.
>>524211767>You are asking for the end of the story at the beginning, then calling God evil for not skipping the story.Yes, because i didn't ask to be an actor in a very painful movie. Maybe God should have made a movie that doesn't hurt the actors. He can't? Then maybe he shouldn't be making movies.
>>524209708he didn't collect enough shekels and that made god angry
Is someone here a parent? Help me understand this.Were you aware of the fact that if you were to have a child, they would 100% suffer? If yes, then there is only one conclusion to be made from it: You wanted your child to suffer. Would you agree with this?
>>524211999>God punished Adam and Eve cus they broke his only rule.OK, but why weren't they created properly, so that they wouldn't have broken the rule?
>>524211767>You are asking for the end of the story at the beginning, then calling God evil for not skipping the story.I am asking to skip the part with the suffering, so that nobody would have to suffer. It is possible, correct? Or is it not?
>>524212045>God should do everything the way I demandover and over again>>524212161obviously every parent knows that their kid will suffer in some ways and yet they have kids. just like i knew that i would suffer by bothering with your new thread.
>>524212045>“I did not ask to exist and I hate that it hurts,”No creature has ever consented to exist. There is literally nothing there to ask before God creates. The choice, from God’s side, is not "create only those who sign a waiver," it is "create persons who can come to share My life, or do not create anything at all." >I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live
>>524212309>just like i knew that i would suffer by bothering with your new thread.Good Lord have mercy
>>524210025there never was an adam, retardit's a story of how an ignorant life in a garden (or goon pod for modern audiences) is ultimately meaninglesshumanity chose (read: prefers) wisdom over ignorance and as such was thrown into the real worldin this way we can build a meaningful relationship with Godbut the solution to the problem of evil is of course Leibniz's theodicy
>>524211767>There is a difference between being created good, and having grown into a stable, tested goodness.Yes, the suffering is the difference! One doesn't, and the other one does. Which one is better, as an experience, for the one experiencing it? The one with the suffering, or the one without? Do you prefer your coffee with sugar or with shit?
>>524212317So you admit we were forced to exist, and as such, consequently, forced to suffer as well? There is no other way of doing it then by making them suffer?
>>524212618At this point you are not even really arguing about God. You are just repeating over and over >“I did not ask to exist. Existence hurts. I see no joy that could possibly justify the hurt. Therefore existence itself is evil, and whoever started it is evil.” You're full of despair and taking it out on God, the only thing that can truly save you this pit of misery inside of your heart. Stop moving the goalposts and seething, and let Christ into your heart. Because there is clearly a longing for it. You can continue to pretend that any suffering at all makes any genuinely positive experience worthless, but you're only fooling yourself and other angry retards.
>>524212480All this wisdom is useless if it doesn't prevent me from making wrong choices. Will i ever be wise enough to actually do things properly? Or will i always be lacking? Will i ever be good enough for God to stop punishing me? If no, why should i try? If everything i can do is wrong, then that means he doesn't appreciate a single thing i do. Why should i try then?
>>524212309>obviously every parent knows that their kid will suffer in some ways and yet they have kids.And they still do it? Do they not feel bad? They just, don't care? It's ok to make others suffer?
>>524212839yes, God forces us to be here. no, we dont quite know fully why but since its God we're talking about we tend to assume He's got a good reason. Do we always like it? no. do we sometimes wonder why He chose this route? yes. Thats it. thats all you can say about it really. you can chose to hate Him for it or you can chose to accept that the Almighty knews what He's doing...or you can just say 'Nope, thats not the real God' etc.i've pointed you to verses addressing the issue and also to articles going over the subject.but none of it seems to sink in. can you let that sink in?
>>524213256>It's ok to make others suffer?if its the only way for them to even be alive and enjoy things sometimes then sure. i clearly did, and so do quite a few other people.
>>524212839I thank God for the life I was given every single day. I hope you can arrive at that point too, one day.
>>524213357Ah, but you never once thought about the other option, that wouldn't make them suffer? Basically you force them to suffer, and that's it. Just like we were forced to suffer. No defense, no way of making sure we don't get hurt, just 'bam, here you are, you exist, now fuck you because you exist.' And then they somehow twist that into love. I don't understand. If you love someone you protect them from suffering, not make them suffer.
>>524213108>fuck my stupid chud life i cannot do anything properlyreject degeneracy and try to better yourselfyou don't have to be perfect
>>524213845>you don't have to be perfectApparently you do, otherwise you get punished. And you will continue to be punished until you are. If it's perfect they want, but they make us in such a way that we can never be perfect, isn't that just mocking really? Dishonest at least...
>>524213642Not all is suffering, but if it were up to you, it might be.
>>524209605>could someone explain this explanation to me?Read it 20 times. Take notes.By the way, thank you for your contribution to the brain damaged OP study.If you truly cared about not existing, you would already not exist. Coward.
>>524213642>if you love someone you make sure that they never existok anon. i just dont think you're at the stage of really taking this subject seriously. your points are really not as smart or penetrating as you many think them to be.Yes, suffering exists anon. i get it. we sometimes cry out 'WHY???' and blame Him (this is addressed in the Bible as ive shown you).....but then we remember what Christ did for us and what the promises for the future new creation are like. That just what Faith is about. Theodicy is a well trodden area of Christian writings and im sure you'll ignore all that too, though hopefully not permanently.
>>524214065>otherwise you get punishedwhat part of benevolent do you not understand?what are you doing that you think deserves to be punished?i would suggest you stop doing whatever that is
>>524214095I care about not suffering. As i see i am not worth much in a world where how good you are is measured in how bad you can make yourself feel. If you don't want to hurt yourself then you're worthless. Not welcome even. That's sad.
>>524210025I think I see what you’re driving at. But you’re looking at it wrong. Life - nature - has constraints. Large and small. And you’re right that the game of life certainly seems rigged to punish even the smallest transgressions (for some). That is simply the shape of life. Take heart in knowing that it has structure, meaning, purpose. Those constraints are there to shape you as you pass through life. To mold you into something else. Good or bad.
>>524214250>moderation and self-restraint is sufferingit actually entails the least suffering you utter retard
>>524209605Jesus says you dont have to live in bondage. Is bondage shackles or is bondage blind obedience? Would you rather obey a dumbass or live in prison?
>>524209605>Can someone explain?You are no puppet.You are free to exercise your will as you see fit.The part you don't like is that God can do that too.You set your will in opposition to God and then bitch that God doesn't behave like you want Him to.Try something...Walk into a local courtroom and tell the judge he is doing it wrong.Critique his every decision.If he sends someone to jail, get up and yell about how mean and unfair that is.Then, after you get out of jail, come back and let us know how that went.The problem is not God, OP.The problem is your own pride.
>>524211999The fruit represents the choice between relying on God and seeking self-knowledge/independence (that could only belong to God), leading to awareness of good and evil but also shame and separation from God. He never stated why or what would happen but simply demanded it as a test of obedience or free will
>>524211185Because to do that is to not give the creation moral agency.
>>524214936Why would the creation need moral agency?
>>524209605Do animals benefit from suffering in the same way humans (allegedly) do?
>>524211999>God punished Adam and Eve cus they broke his only rule.>They could've fucked all the animals, burned the whole garden down. They could've done anything and God would've been fine, but they broke the rule and he told them what'd happen if they did.See, it was God that made them. Now God could have made them in one of two ways: in such a way that they wouldn't break the rule, and in such a way that they would break the rule. The results speak for themselves. What i would like to know is what is the difference between the two, and why did God choose one over the other.
Is today Christmas or is it tomorrow? I never know for sure... Anyway, i wish a merry Christmas to those anons that are celebrating it! I don't want to be all negative and such...And thanks for answering my questions, perhaps one day i find my answers in here somewhere, soon enough i hope...
>>524209605Seems self explanatory Anon.
>>524209944When you are a 5d+ being you cannot keep anything secret from anyone or from yourself. The illusion of choice is what the materium is specialized to perform.Inhabiting your 3.5d body is a sin for you, an Elohim host/god. Either you fell from heaven to fuck women or are here for the experience. To be counted among The Lord God's harvest, here in hell, to walk yourself back to HIM without being forced to is an extremely meritorious purity test. Take some, and leave some behind (to be destroyed forever). The qliptoth is absolutely merely a meat puppet avatar. In fact you stole it from Satan.
>>524209802The demiurge is the supreme being in the adam and eve story. They are who he, the fallen one, created upon Earth - the world he made because he thinks he can one-up God. So you're seeing an evil being who punishes you for being a puppet being called God in the ancient texts of evil people who worshiped it.Eventually Christ came and set the record straight, introduced us to gnostic truths and the trinity, all that jazz. Those of us who hear the word and looked to Real God became Christians, and those who rejected the idea and continue worshiping the demiurge (satan basically) went through various purges and invasions and other events, ending up as Israelis. (They call themselves 'Jews' to confuse things, when they aren't really.)
>>524209708Adam was punished because he was a puppet. He allowed himself to be manipulated by Eve and the Serpent.
>>524216113>What i would like to know is what is the difference between the two, and why did God choose one over the other.ive already pointed you to what the Bible says about this but you ignored it. you also ignore the last time i said that you ignored it.of course God could have created them in such a way that they would not have sinned then, or ever. But He didn't.
>>524216772Basically, anyone who worships Satan still says "god," while people who worship the supreme unity of all (the Monad in gnostic terms) also say "God." One is good, the other is evil. Like, on an ontological level more than a philosophical one.
>>524216113God doesn't want mindless worshippers though. He already has that in the form of angels. He wants humans to worship Him willingly. That's why He gives us the ability to defy Him, but also punishes us when we do defy Him.
>>524216534no problem at all anon and thank you. but i know from looking back at my life that the only real way to understand a little bit of God's reasons for making things the way they are instead of the way we think they should be is to be found in Christ, the perfect image of God.its not a easy subject to deal with and the answers that Christians give won't generally be acceptable to those without faith themselves.....and this is perfectly understandable because our fallen nature is naturally at enmity with God.
Hi op, you are using logic, so let me briefly use logic. If all the time that ever will be, ever has been, and ever is yet to be containing suffering is all of it but one drop in a vast ocean of time and beyond time all the love and creation beyond finite understanding and limitation, would you go through this one drop of rain?Never give up on your soul, but it’s okay to mend and heal your mind. I love you, and I know God loves you. God bless you, anon.
>>524209708Adam's a faggot and a cuck.God should have torn him in half the moment he started complaining about being alone.
>>524216534Merry Christmas man
>>524210828Let's remove God from the picture and use your parents so it's easier for you to conceptualize. Your parents want you to have free will, to choose for yourself, or said in a modern way, stand on your own two feet. However they also want you to do good. If you do bad they will be upset or disappointed, or perhaps furious. However, your response to them shouldn't be "IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE MAD I DID A BAD THING WHY WAS I ABLE TO DO IT? IF YOU WANT ME TO BE A GOOD SON WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE ME A PUPPET INSTEAD?!"You're attempting to remove culpability of your actions.It's the weight of choice that's important. I recall telling you this a few days ago as well.
>>524211221You're actually arguing his point lol."You see! You can be a non puppet without the inclination to murder children! Now apply that to all other evils!">>524211185Why not instead focus on another aspect of reality: why do we need food for survival? Lack of it means people starve. >but we need food for growth! God could have made it otherwise. >but with no limitations, the earth world be overcrowded! God could have made it otherwiseetc.Of all the things you could complain about, the one thing being most in your control (your own actions) seems silly.
>>524212291Suffering is only suffering in the moment. For all you know this could be one long simulation afterwards where you were created perfectly and asked God "hey what would things be like if X" and he said "here let me show you".>>524214374>freedom isn't the self restraint to not do addictive drugs! >it's the freedom to do drugs and not be addicted! Until OP comes to understand freedom from and freedom for, he is incapable of higher level philosophy.
>>524216772Is there a single collection of gnostic teachings or traditions out there, or do I have to cobble whatever together? >>524216534メッリクリスナス!>>524217057It's even part of mainstream Christian lore that Satan lead 1/3 of the angelic hosts against God; that explicitly means that the angels weren't in fact mindless and had the ability to choose to rebel against God.
>>524216899>of course God could have created them in such a way that they would not have sinned then, or ever. But He didn't.But then it's not their fault, and they shouldn't be punished for it. >>524217178>would you go through this one drop of rain?You make it seem like you only get wet, like it's not that bad. You know full well getting wet and feeling pain is not the same. And anyway, God could have made it so we don't need to get wet. But he didn't. He failed to protect me once already, who is to say he wont do it again? And anyway i can't trust someone who wants me to get hurt. I don't want to spend time with someone like that.
Imagine you're God. You create all that is good, and then you stop. All is good.
>>524221887But God doesn't want us to be happy and to live good lives, he wants us to fail and feel bad, and we have no defense against him. It's sad.
>>524221613Whatever happened to you that was bad, wasn't done by God.It was done, directly or indirectly, by man. Sexual abuse? Another man. Health issues? Man either chose an improper breeding partner, or man fucked up the environment with poison or whatever. To lay everything at God's feet is improper. If I call you a nigger is that ultimately God's doing in your eyes?
>>524220617>erm actually, you're arguing his point!No I’m not. I’m refuting his idea that "always choosing right = puppet." He was not made a puppet, but he already knows he’ll never murder a child, because he has a morality instilled in him by the Lord God. That shows stable goodness and freedom can coexist. But he certainly has sinned in other ways, as we all do. That shows decisive evil and freedom also can coexist. What he wants is God to create everyone already in that final, perfectly stable state with no story, no growth, no risk. He wants God to make us start in the final, unbending state with no story and no growth of our own, which would in practice reduce us to something like puppets dressed in borrowed holiness.
>>524209708>>524209944>>524209605I dislike people who claim to not understand yet obviously already have their mind made up and are actually making more statements than questions. Disgusting behavior. Spit.
>>524210830Since the demon nigger faggot OP is the only one who replied to your post with insane babbling and obvious attempts at ragebait, I'll reply too, and sayGood post, anon.
Man. The euphoria recently has been overwhelming. Its fucking exhausting. Seems like the Tippening 2: the fedora boogalo is really in full swing with the younger zoomers who missed the first episode. I look forward to the cringe they will produce.
>>524222401>borrowed holinessAn odd choice of words, given that Christian theology is basically "saved by Grace alone".
