It just hit me some people are not libertarians.How do you guys explain the downfall of Europe? Muh capitalism? It is capitalism's fault that it goes to shit if it's too regulated and bureaucratized?Do you seriously not know, or can't grasp, that the state of the housing market is from bureaucracy, and as long as you blame capitalism, the bureaucrats have zero reason to change their ways?"Muh american healthcare" - In a system where there's an enforced monopoly on meds, # of people who can study medicine is limited bureaucratically (aka by governments), your employer has to buy your healthcare instead of you due to tax reasons, you unironically blame capitalism for it not working?How is anyone with above 100 IQ not even a libertarian at this point? It baffles me how dense the average person is.
But muh blue team and muh red team
>>526166270If you don't understand how capitalism relies on mass migration in 2026 you're ngmi
>>526166270I'm just not into child sex slaves is the thing
>>526166270I blame jews and commies
>>526166387What about child sex slaves and the right to own thermite to protect yourself from the tyranny of any state sponsored child sex slave crony competition?
>>526166355Many people are stupid and still make it in life. You could be a normie and just do the same as everyone else for a low risk average outcome, you could be unintelligent in terms of grasping complex concepts, but still good at talking, like so many businessmen and politicians. You could get involved in politics while young, be popular, and become a successful bureaucrat. You can't say that just because someone is unintelligent, he's ngmi.However, you are the unintelligent one. I didn't mention anything about mass migration, but most importantly, the idea that mass migration is from capitalism is dense and stupid. Because there is a capitalist incentive to kill people and steal all their money, to kidnap someone and ask his family for ransom, and to enslave people for forced labor or prostitution, however, what makes capitalism good is that actors in it can't use violence or coercion and can only work based on voluntary agreements, and of course they can't make the law, as that is in itself coercion. Therefore, just because some capitalist wishes there was a million pajeets in his area to hire for peanuts, this technically has no correlation with immigration policy in a free market. It practice it can have a correlation, but that's a different issue from capitalism being good or bad.
>>526166387>Oh, understandable, I didn't look at it that way.>Have a good day. Wait a moment.... That's communist! Are you saying you don't like child sex slaves, which there's market demand for? Yikes!! Fucking commie!!I'm pretty sure you would expect that reaction because you're a fucking dense and stupid normie.Libertarianism also means having rules and not using violence, otherwise as I was saying, there's a "capitalist" incentive for all sorts of fucked up things, fortunately that's not how it works.
>>526166956Never said you lot don't have good takes it's just I'm not into child sex slaves is the thing
>>526166733No, you literally don't understand what capitalism is. It's not just "private ownership and free trade" which to some extent has always existed. The most accurate definition of what capitalism actually is is a process based on usury which began in the 17th century whereby capital is sent in search of more capital. If it doesn't find any the system collapses. Hence if you have a declining population, and you have no natural resources to exploit and technology isn't making up the gap then you need to import people to keep the system going. Hence mass migration to western countries. Observe how communist countries despite economic decline had literally zero mass migration. Their system didn't require it.>inb4 DUHH DATS NOT REAL CAPITALISMYes it is retard. This is what capitalism as a system actually means in reality
>>526167067You're so fucking dumb. You're the target audience of political debates.
>>526167160Well I remain unconvinced, good luck in your endeavors anon
>>526167242I never thought I would convince you. I know that people can be proven inequivocally wrong, even made to shut up because they run out of excuses, and still repeat the same points in other threads, that they were just shown are wrong, and in some level they know they're wrong because they went quiet. Which in a sense you also just did, and I know you will keep saying that capitalism is child sex slaves. It's okay, that's life.
>>526166270I was (maybe on some level still am) an ancap. The core problem with libertarianism is it is absolutely powerless to stop zog globalism. It is a foundational core issue that you can’t square with the needs of society.
>>526167432>why aren't people libertarians?>oh well I don't need to convince you why you should be a libertarian
>>526167140>It's not just "private ownership and free trade" which to some extent has always existedIt is literally just that, it did in fact always exist and always work, and libertarianism is the idea that leaving it alone and trusting the process ends up better for everyone.The system does not "collapse" if capital can't find more capital, that's so fucking illiterate, like the "line must go up" take. And like I said, immigration policy has no relation to this, those are laws bureaucrats make.This will fall on deaf ears since it's a bit more complicated, but "muh usury" is necessary for the system to function because it is a part of the market process. Loans are a key process in the creation of factories for example.Of course you won't like this, you'll say well, then, even if the factory is useful, the loaner, just like the owner, will get money for nothing. He will be a parasite. But the thing is that investors are people who previously saved up money instead of spending it, aka, when they could have paid to take resources or labor from other people, they instead didn't, and that's why afterwards they have the resources to instead make a factory that, if it is useful to others, will make them even more. And as long as it is useful to others, this process can of course snowball. There is actually nothing wrong with that, they are not stealing from people who have less.
>>526167932Like I said you are literally the target audience of mainstream political propaganda. I just wanted to discuss, I know people can't be convinced.And yes I still wonder why people are not libertarians.
>>526167916Yeah to be fair I don't fully agree with zero government intervention ever. But on some level everyone should be a libertarian aka understand the basics of how society functions.
>>526168208Capitalism requires capital to operate. That means people investing expecting a return on their investment. If growth stops, the returns stop coming, people stop investing and the system collapses. This is not because of government intervention this is inherent to capitalism.Hence like I said, if there is no other way to grow your economy, you need to import people to avoid collapse
>>526168272because all you do is post the snek flag and goon to Chinese lolis
>>526168482WHAT A FUCKING RETARDIf I make a store and sell food, I don't need constant growth to operate, if it makes enough I don't actually need to make more and more, you IMBECILE. Nothing would "collapse" without constant growth.
>>526168566That is not a proper argument, me gooning to chinese (actually japanese) lolis all day does not affect the way the economy works. And me posting the snek flag should make more libertarians. So your logic doesn't follow sorry bro.
>>526168594>a store is equivalent to an economyReminds me of Thatcher saying the state is like a household. There is not much point to this discussion if you don't understand basic economicsIf you had taken out a loan to buy they shop, then yes it would effectively "collapse" if you stopped being able to repay that loan and it was repossessed by the bank. This is the significance of usury. People do not own what they are operating. Hence small declines can turn into big declines very very quickly.
>>526166355If you don't understand that we live under bolshevik communism and that capitalism has been gone for 80 years you're ngmi
>>526168805The economy is composed of people making a living, through stores or whatever, so yes.I could take a loan to buy a shop and still make enough to cover it.How do most wagies get by according to you? Their wages are not constantly growing. How do they not collapse?
>>526166270>lolberts
>>526169113>but how does this affect you personally?The only way you can make us look bad is with things we don't actually say
>>526169014>comparing one human to entire economyIf they started taking out loans and were unable to repay them their life effectively would collapse anon. I am sorry but this is pointless. You clearly don't even understand the point I am making. I've already explained it twice.
>>526168334Well libertarianism doesn’t have much to say about power per se, other than the non aggression principle and the states monopoly on force. If you want value free analysis of power you should read the elite theorists, Machiavelli that sort of stuff. I would argue libertarians are woefully naive on the subject of power, in fact, because they’ve made it their boogeyman. The only libertarian political theorist that comes to mind might be Hoppe with Democracy the God That Failed. Any right leaning libertarian will inevitably find the NRx spaces and begin taking this journey which leads away from libertarianism. My whole thing is ancapistan is unattainable without a cohesive white ethnostate, as soon as it’s zogged the whole project collapses. There can be no “live and let live” when you have feral niggers slicing your throat while you’re minding your own business or while financier jews wring every cent they can from your corpse. In fact I would argue we did actually have a proper libertarian project established in the United States at the founding of the republic but it didn’t take long to collapse that project, but the reason it worked at first was because the founders understood who should have the right to vote, make laws and generally participate in the functions of the state. Once suffrage was expanded beyond white property owning males in good standing, it was doomed to fail. It’s just too easy to be co-opted by non-whites and women.
>>526169269>comparing one human to entire economyOk can you explain why it's different? The economy is a bunch of people so why can't we extrapolate one human?>If they started taking out loans and were unable to repay them their life effectively would collapse anonLook man, the economy is about production. People tend to focus on # of jobs, or money amounts, but in the end, the main thing is that the production for the things most people need is actually present. This is why in industrially developed countries, food is affordable, for example. Previous investments by people who saved up money made this possible.If people take out loans and can't pay them back, that's a problem. What's the alternative according to you? No interest? Not having to pay back loans? Why would people save up to give the money away? You know they wouldn't. Or for loaning it for nothing? If some guy can make a business that is productive as fuck and needs your money to do so, but won't pay you interest, why would you loan it for him? Spending it on a trip or starting a business yourself that's not as good would be better.
>>526166270libertarians support open borders, fuck off retards
>>526169711Also I’d like to add that the Reason type libertarians were tripping over themselves a few years ago to tell us that “private companies can do what they want” regarding banning people from twitter and Facebook, then it comes out later that actually the only reason anyone was banned was because they were told to do so by the USG. At this point private capital is so in bed with the state(and always will be) that you will have this dynamic of private companies or NGOs doing the work on behalf of the government when the government can’t “legally” do it themselves. Since this is just a fact of life we should accept, like the sky being blue, we should consider what sort of state we want that actually works for citizens.
>>526166270If libertarianism is so good explain fucking Somalia there is no active govt there shouldn’t it be a libertarian paradise on paper? Also no matter what you still at least need contract law.
>>526166733>but most importantly, the idea that mass migration is from capitalism is dense and stupid.Capitalists literally will openly state that they want mass migration and you retards will still claim otherwise
>>526170117
>>526168594The current economy is based in debt. You need constant growth because new money is paying off old money. In fact the federal reserve's policy is basically to gin up consumption as high as possible so GDP goes up. Without that we could never pay off a $40 trillion debt.this model only somewhat works because of the near-infinite resources in the earth. Imagine if we were on a small asteroid with extremely limited resources, and had to carefully deploy our resources like a strategy game. Would never work.
>>526170399This is only a tough talking point when there's censorship lol, not on /pol/. Of course I can explain it. They're fucking black.
>>526170117>why can't we extrapolate one humanBecause the economy is composed of interdependent human activities and macro process, therefore if one part fails then the entire system does. Your country for example still has not recovered from 2008.>the main thing is that the production for the things most people need is actually presentI agree. Unrestrained capitalism does not achieve this because goods are literally not produced unless they are profitable. >What's the alternativeThe alternative is zero interest state loans. The alternative is not letting capital dictate the direction of economic activities. The alternative is state control. The alternative is directing the economy according to the needs of the nation and the people.
>>526170569Don't care what capitalists state, they also tend to want government favors, which are also against hte idea of the free market, idiot.Just look at Trump to see how much a businessman can be trusted to know about economics. Actors in the market don't need to understand why the market works.
>>526170569Capitalism without morals would openly be doing shit like bulldozing African villages to replace with strip malls. Or boostinf white birthrates because they make better workers/consumers. But the problem is, it doesn't stop there. They'd be genetically engineering new humans, or merging with machines. It's fundamentally transhumanist. Human beings are just food for the beast.
Libertarians might be the dumbest people on the planet. They should not even be entertained, or explained to why they’re wrong, just fucking laugh at them. Literally any political ideology can make similar claims to the core tenants of libertarianism, it’s just that they actually come up with solutions rather than saying “fuck da gubmint and rules maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan” like an unironic hippie. That’s why most people who where libertarian 10-18 years ago are now some other ideology, you crypto-fence sitting tard. Literal pajeet-tier iq ideology.
>>526166270The problem with libertarianism is that it is race and gender blind. It's just another equality and liberation ideology >>526170588It's not that Evola is wrong here but the kind of system we live under today, he could've never imagined it
>>526170569There's is a ton of stuff that is profitable but that is not taking place because it's illegal. The reason mass migration is one of these is because of leftism, ultimately, the post-ww2 anti-fascist values. Migration is profitable so let's abolish corps is like saying leftists promote gay shit online so let's abolish internet
>>526171115Well yes they would do this but they would also import millions of Indians, even without giving them citizenship. Libertarianism is still liberalism in Carl Schmidt terms and tries to beg the most important questions instead of answering them. The true(TM) libertarianism would certainly be better than modern ulieveable hell of inclusive democracy but it's really annoying impossible society incompatible with human psychology
>>526166346fippity bippity
>>526171521> The problem with libertarianism is that it is race and gender blind. It's just another equality and liberation ideologyThis is essentially my issue with it as well. It is unable to prevent the ass raping by Jews that you get with an open society. Equality just leads to what we have today.
>>526172472The alternative to the leftist state is not an absence of a state but a right wing state and it's really how it always was in history and it's the only thing that is compatible with human psychology. Right wing libertarians would talk about how the state forced anti-racism in the US, but this wasn't "the government" Vs "the people", it was the good racist "state government" Vs bad anti-racist "federal government".
>>526172038Human beings basically evolved for small tribes of about 2000-4000 people. They are religious, they are naturally inclined to take their cues from an authority figure telling them how to live, what to believe, what their values are....etc. Capitalism hijacks those mechanisms for self serving profit. Capitalism works to the extent people are rational calculators, but we didn't evolve that way. So we witness today the bulk-majority of the population being rapaciously farmed, like cattle, by the corporations. Remember when the web was just a few upper-middle class kids fooling around on forums, and it was like a bountiful free land. But then the masses started going online, and their farmers, seeing their flock wanderint astray, followed them. Suddenly the entire online space was centralized to 10 main sites, and everything became awash in ads and monetization. You can just see how this group of people is basically surrounded by a cloud of cultures pecking their flesh away. And they're so accustomed to doing this, it's their entire business model. They feel like geniuses for doing this.
>>526166387Why are you thinking about child sex slaves in the first place when that'll illegal under libertarian law?
>>526172850Yeah but it's also impossible to escape this centralisation in a modern industrial and IT society. Capitalism hijacked these small 2-4k communities but it was necessary to push people into industrialisation so it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that there should be a right wing version of modernity
>>526166270https://youtu.be/ZRE9jRtiO3I
>>526172844Exactly, I think this is the natural progression of any libertarian that is honest about seeking the truth. Most people find a comfortable ideology like they would have with a favorite pair of pants, and they stop seeking truth. Most people stop seeking answers and stay where they are and defend it tirelessly. But if you look at reality it’s telling us that race and heritage is a huge component of what shapes our world and we ignore it our peril. Conservatives and libertarians are uncomfortable with the harsh truth that you must wield power to crush those that would get in your way to usher in the world you want to see. Power makes them squeamish but “the left” has no problem wielding power to reach their ends. This has been a costly mistake ever since the French Revolution and I’m not sure what it will take for “the right” to understand this lesson.
The only poster itt who has any grasp of libertarianism is the Spaniard. The rest of you make shit up and pull every trick under the sun to make libertarianism less appealing when literally nothing any of you (save the Spaniard) said has anything to do with LIBERTY.
>>526173079>libertarians >laws too much /pol/ for one day
>>526173430There can be no liberty without order anon. You’re either a retard or severely naive if you believe you can have “liberty” in a vacuum. No amount of tweaking tax policy will get us to a glorious right wing world the Spaniard insists upon.
>>526173430We already did this yesterday anon"the fundamental problem with libertarianism is that you mistake abstraction for reality. ... you are labouring under a faulty conception of freedom (negative). freedom is not natural condition, it is derivative of a stable political order. thus the idea that minimal government maximises freedom is itself fundamentally flawed."
>>526173774>he somehow understands and doesn't understand at the same timeWow. You fuckers must be doing this on purpose.
>>526166270
>>526173999Brother I understand perfectly well. I’ve read Moses, rothbard, Rand, Ron Paul, I’ve listened to the podcasts, been to the rally’s. I believe it is you who do not understand what we’re saying.
>>526173340Step one is WW2 revisionism, step two is ditching Christianity. Even during the French revolution Christians were fence sitters, it was the noblemen who were on the right, Christians joined the right only when the left went after them. Similar case in Russian revolution
>>526173975It's not even just that. Libertarianism, classic liberalism proposes a world of equal and free economic agents. But it's always possible to find some natural inequalities and unfairnesses and demand more state intervention until you get to the modern inclusive democracy. Both communism and modern liberalism promise to deliver the "true" promises of classic liberalism that classic liberalism itself failed to deliver
>>526173430Sneed's Feed & Seed (formerly Chuck's). Also, "Bart's Fart & Shart" doesn't make any sense because the store wasn't called "Feed & Sheed" under Sneed's ownership so stop posting it.
