>1. "The cult of tradition," characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.>2. "The rejection of modernism," which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.>3. "The cult of action for action's sake," which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.>4. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.>5. "Fear of difference," which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.>6. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class," fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.>7. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
>8. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.>9. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.>10. "Contempt for the weak," which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.>11. "Everybody is educated to become a hero," which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
>12. "Machismo," which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.">13. "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people".>14. "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Fake and gay.
>>526259056>"How to spot a Fascist!>Me: "I'm a fascist.">OMG I spot one!
>Syncretism>combining or merging of various distinct beliefs or schools of thought
>>526259056OP is a faggot
Oh we’re doing this? Okay let’s show how you fags operate then. >RULE 1: “Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.” Power is derived from 2 main sources – money and people. “Have-Nots” must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)>RULE 2: “Never go outside the expertise of your people.” It results in confusion, fear, and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don’t address the “real” issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)>RULE 3: “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy.” Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety, and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)>RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity’s very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)
>RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)>RULE 6: “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” They’ll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They’re doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different than any other human being. We all avoid “un-fun” activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)>RULE 7: “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.” Don’t become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)>RULE 8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)
The difference in eloquence between >>526259056>>526259140>>526259176and>>526259798is astonishing
>RULE 9: “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.” Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists’ minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)>RULE 10: “If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive.” Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management’s wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)>RULE 11: “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.” Never let the enemy score points because you’re caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)>RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)
>>526259932Yes, Alinsky was rather retarded.
>>526259335Exactly what fascism is, a bunch of nonsense merged together>>526259798It doesn't change the fact that fascism, nazism and their variations are the product of irrational lies and fantasies>>526259932See point 14 of fascist tropes
>>526259056this is moronic1. if tradition = fascism then 90% of humanity was fascist. Obviously stupid. Alsom the nazis weren't even trad. At no time of Germany's past was there any regime similar to nazism. They were atheists. They did not believe in aristrocracy. Etc.2. Nazism was a modernist project lol. Total state power guided by a veneer of science. 3. Everybody believes their opponents are irrational so this accusation is meaningless.4. As if liberalism didn't treat disagreement as treason... try being a monarchist or suggesting the blank slate is false and see what happens... at the least you'' be a social outcast and if you are in the EU you can go to jail for "hate speech"5. see above6. so if i'm a democratic party appealing to a middle class, im fascist? 7. liberal democracy blames all issues on the ever present but never visible "russian disinformation". are they fascists?8. this is not exclusive to fascism; it's an old rhetorical device used by many9. fine10. if ingroup preference is fascism then all of humanity prior to 1945 was fascist. Obvious nonsense.11. If having heroes is fascism, then all kinds of societies that are obviously not fascist would start counting as fascist. 12. same as above13. liberal democracy does the same with the "Experts"14. same as above
>>526259056this is all just leftist stuff, especially now that leftism has been around long enough to be seen as a tradition
>>526259056He defines fascism here, but I'm kind of missing the debunk.Love for tradition, reject modernism, rejection of difference, xenophobia.. is this supposed to debunk anything?
>>526259056All those apply to radical shitlibs. If those are your complaints welcome to hating on shitlibs.
>>526259056This is so low IQ it's not even worth responding to kekIt's not even psychoanalysis on the level of the Authoritarian Personality, he can't even decide whether this is a psychological or political critiqueAbsolute slop garbage, this would only convince an absolute retard with no ideological grounding
>>526260385>variations are the product of irrational lies and fantasiesYou mean national identity and culture? I suppose a marxist would say that.
>>526259056tl;dr it is time for you to have sex argie, pic rel
>>526260385and by the way, you are going to be begging for the return of Peronism once Milei's finished handing your country over to international finance and world jewry. and it will be too late. kek
>>5262604001. Nazis were obsessed ober a mythical past. They sought a rebirth of a fictional ancient spirit to replace the "decadent" present2. Using a "veneer of science" (like eugenics and racialism) to justify tribal myth-making is what separates fascism from simple traditional monarchism3. It's the active glorification of impulse and blood-feeling over analytical thought4, 5. Liberal democracies generally punish incitement to violence or but they do not institutionalize a cult of the leader/the party. You can be a monarchist in a democracy without being sent to a camp but you cannot be a democrat in a fascist state and expect to survive6. It’s about the rhetoric of the "squeeze" (between a corrupt elite and foreign threats) and the promise of a national savior to restore their status7. Liberalism uses it to defend existing institutions. Fascism uses the "ever-present enemy" to justify the suspension of all civil liberties and rights8. In other ideologies, conflict is a means to an end (peace, equality). In fascism, the struggle is the end itself, it,'s the entire purpose.10. There is an abyssmal different between "preferring your neighbors" and ultranationalism. Fascism establishes that the in-group’s survival depends on the subjugation or elimination of the out-group. Most pre-1945 societies were tribal or imperial, yes, but they rarely sought the total mobilization of the entire population around a singular racial identity and against a perceived enemy11, 12. Fascism is a cult of death13, 14. The "experts" in a democracy are theoretically subject to peer review, public debate, and changing data. A fascist regime fears questioning and wants to force a made up truth
>>526263142>A fascist regime fears questioning and wants to force a made up truthdid you forget COVID already? trans? crime statistics? the denial of genetics? open censorship to combat "disinformation"?
>>526262237Those are subjective. Cultures and societies evolve and change over time>>526262810Peronism is cardboard fascism, it has failed so many times
>>526263348>COVIDIt was real>trans???>crime statisticsProduct of socioeconomic inequality>denial of geneticsOutdated stuff>open censorship to combat disinformationDisinformation as in literal nazi propaganda
>>526259056>Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.Pat Robertson was fundamentally correct in his assessments so if this is somehow supposed to be criticism it is extremely poor. These points are an incredible level of liberal intellectual masturbation for the sake of it, despite it being wrong. I cannot imagine how much of an insufferable cunt Eco was to hang out with. >>526263142>they do not institutionalize a cult of the leader/the party.No, liberal democracy institutionalizes a cult of system worship where any legitimate criticism is simply written off as heresy which is why the word "fascist" gets thrown around. Liberal democracy has set up the most advanced surveillance state in the history of the world and is actively using it on its populace to suppress righteous outrage over blatant population replacement. If you unironically believe anything you posted after reality showing you otherwise you are an idiot.
>>526263835stop pretending like you don't understand what i mean. During COVID, every week there was a retroactive censorship of the events of the week prior, and all questioning of the official Science (tm) narrative was attacked and censored, even when the official story was false in the end (lab leak, vax effectiveness, mask effectiveness).Transexuality is obviously and self evidently a mental illness but the Experts that control academia, media and education push it and censor all dissent. >crime = socioeconomic factorsif you want to deny Darwin's theory of evolution, I can't do anything to stop you, but you're willfully ignorant. In the past poverty was worse and yet you didn't see the levels of savagery seen today.>outdated stuffok you're just trolling. matate grabalo y subilo DOWN
Desperate attempt to deactivate fence sitters and moderates.
>>526259056There aren't any real fascists anymore. Most of the extreme right are Hitlerians who don't even understand the political theory of fascism. And 99.95 percent of the people who are accused of fascism are just conservatives supporting beliefs that were mainstream 20 years ago. IOW, Eco was a lefty Dego faggot.
>>526259056>>526264291>>526262037>>526262033>>526261849I don't see the debunk part here. He just described how they behave. Yes they are faggots and annoying but it's that way for a reason - the jooish money printer. You've got to be a faggot to stop other faggots from doing faggot shit. There's no other way but we're not the same. It's not about -isms anymore. It's about who prints money and how much. If you want to stop the infinite money printing, you've got to do something about libshits or else money will keep being printed (((freely))). You're opinion doesn't fucking matter. You're votes doesn't fuckin' matter. You vote with you money. Money is your only vote you have. It doesn't matter if you hate or like whatever. It doesn't matter how many times you express your opinion. If you buy nike and coca cola you are on team jew. You are on team capitalism. You are Fascism if you don't vote with your money. However btw, if you want to join geopolitics and elite conspiracies chat and come here at :https://smp17.simplex.im/g#lzALEMkYHHloE3BusU9TrqIsv4XIQa_6fzIrnT7gz1QIt's a bit inactive yet but I regret not making a contingency chat while 8cham was active. Possibly 4chan might go down again in 2026.
>>526264630Eco himself is very nuanced and more like a concern trolling the nu/left at the time. It was the leftists who were into JQ back then mostly. How does he not believe in jooish & Vatican conspiracy theories if he knows that much about esoteric western history?? Go actually read one of his essays... I believe he was secretly a dedicated conspiratard in private.
>>526259056>nice theory umberto>now face the wall
>>526259056>>526259140>>526259176>umberto eco HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHis work has been refuted repeatedly. Eco’s “definition” is simply a weapon to label anyone to the right of Trotsky a “fascist”. The simplest way to show this is… how many of the 14 points do you need to tick to be a fascist? Eco himself purposely doesn’t address this because he wants to subjectively apply his own work so he can call anyone he doesn’t like “fascist”.
>>526259056Your culture is le bad
>>526265019Nazbol is a thing too you know
>>526259056Damn.. North Korea is fascist.
>>526259056European Union:3., 4., 5., 7., 8., 9., 11., 14.
>>526263835>>526263142Was Lysenko a fascist?
>>526259056>1. Cult of tradition When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.This would describe reactionary presupposationalism such a Talmudist fundamentalists (OP is low key anti-semetic) or EO radtrads, rather than fascists. It could also include communist anti-revisionists such as Hoxa.>2. "The rejection of modernism,"This rules out fascist Italy. See the Futurists. In fact it just excludes most of the urban right in general.>3. "action for action's sake," which dictates that action is of value in itselfThat’s extremely vague. This could include climate activists who want to take climate action now rather than first reach societal agreement.>4. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourseThis is exemplified in modern leftism which reach shows have much smaller tolerance of political difference. It’s the right that has a broader set of views.Do you see how all these are vague enough that Eco can just selectively apply them. For reference that only took me 10 minutes, that’s how shit the best the left has to offer is.
>>526263142Marxism also relies on a mythical past. So does liberalism because of locke. Even feminism does this with their venus statue matriarchy nonsense.
>>526259056>Eco received a Salesian education and made references to the order and its founder in his works and interviews.>The Salesians of Don Bosco (SDB), formally known as the Society of Saint Francis de Sales, is a religious congregation of men in the Catholic Church, founded in 1859 by the Italian priest John Bosco to help poor and migrant youth during the Industrial Revolution.literally groomed by christkikes lmao
>>52626314210 is napoleon's fault. All war is total because of technology and the enfranchisenent of the populace in decisionmaking.
>>526259056>1. "The cult of tradition," characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.This is stupid. No Fascist government ever had a belief like this. The Reich was actually an unprecedented break from traditional Germanism.>2. "The rejection of modernism," which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.Again, this is dumb. Fascist don't reject every aspect of modernity, just the ones that are negative, like transgender studies and gay adoption, which actually have no place in civilized societies.>3. "The cult of action for action's sake," which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.Where is this idiot even getting this from? Were the Germans rejecting intellectualism when they were pioneering genetics, computers, and rocketry? And what Fascist leader ever said anything remotely like "every action has value?">4. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.All systems are intolerant of enemies, yes. The people who most murderously persecuted intellectuals were the Bolsheviks.
>>526263142I think you and the anon you are responding to are stupid for discussing the 3rd Reich when you can just discuss Fascist italy.But EVEN THEN you are still retarded.>2. Using a "veneer of science" (like eugenics and racialism) to justify tribal myth-making is what separates fascism from simple traditional monarchismIf you think THAT is what seperated fascism from monarchism then you are retarded. Also if you are saying>NO ITS ONLY A HECKIN VENEER OF SCIENCE SO IT DOESNT COUNTthen communists were anti-modernist because materialist dialectic is pseudo-science. Same with liberals and trans identity. It’s all pure pseudo-science and anti-modern. >3. It's the active glorification of impulse and blood-feeling over analytical thoughtLeftists today are obsessed with feels over reals. That’s why a gayboy murdered Charlie Kirk, because he was a heckin fascist because he said “chopping your dick off doesn’t make you a girl”.4, 5. Liberal democracies generally punish incitement to violence or but they do not institutionalize a cult of the leader/the party.So you would concede that leftists, communist, anarkiddies etc. fit that point of Eco’s “”definition””. Does that make them all fascist? Do you see how retarded his idea is?
>>526263142>6Fdr was an all powerful monarch that put the japanese in camps and censored all military communications back home. I think most of what people attribute to fascism is an artifact of the examples all taking place during/between world wars or civil wars.
>>526267720Based. Eco is just preaching to the choir. There's no substance to this. It's shitlib slop for the read books crowd.
>>526259056More like Umberto Incel amirite?
>>526266969Eco defined everything he didn’t like as fascism. He wanted to label the right of his day as fascist but was faced with the difficulty that they simply didn’t fit within more orthodox understandings of fascism. So ‘Ur-Fascism’ was a tool to make the definition highly subjective. He could then use the vague 14 points to label everyone from actual Italian fascists, to Francoist reactionaries, to Christian Paleo-Cons as “fascists”. And it couldn’t be flipped on him because he was the interpreter and could change how many of the points one need to meet to actually be a “fascist”. It’s a weapon not a definition.
>>526259056>5. "Fear of difference," which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.Again, this is dumb. The Axis Powers in WW2 had plenty of allies in the Middle East and Asia.>6. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class," fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.No. The appeals to the middle class are meant to counteract bad behavior of the UPPER CLASS, not the lower one.>7. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. You mean like a leftist hack like Eco hyping up a Fascist threat? lmao>Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.Pat Robertson was not a Fascist. >8. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak."Actually, the left does this all the time, most notoriously with "Nazis" and "White supremacists," who are simultaneously dumb rednecks and a threat to muh democracy.>9. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight.There literally was an enemy to fight in WW2. It was called Bolshevik Russia.>10. "Contempt for the weak," Never a part of Fascist ideology, but it's often associated with Judeophilic conservatism.>11. "Everybody is educated to become a hero," which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. Hero cults have been a thing since Ancient Greek, but Eco is deliberaly mischaracterizing them the way he does everything else.
>>526259176>12. "Machismo," which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."That's why the German army committed the worst mass rape in history, right? Oh no wait, that was Eco's fellow communists who did that.>13. "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. No. The people have a common interest that is (or should be) served by the State.>14. "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.Yeah, like calling everyone you don't like a Fascist.
>>526267976>Eco is just preaching to the choir. There's no substance to this. It's shitlib slop for the read books crowd.Pretty much. Anyone who tried to “define” words through a point system of types of behaviours or beliefs is not a serious person. And if they don’t even bother to specify how many point need to be met then you can *instantly ignore*People have addressed this all years ago.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Iea1NPFRs&pp=ygUcVGhlIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGlzdCB1bWJlcnRvIGVjbw%3D%3DThe most absurd part is “Ur-Fascism” was Eco’s defining work, and it take roughly 30 minutes to breakdown and refute.
>>1. "The cult of tradition,">>2. "The rejection of modernism,"LolLmao even
>>526259056Eco is brilliant writer but he is simply wrong on points 1 & 2: Fascism was an explicitly new and modernist movement that presented an alternate vision of a modernist society. The rest is true, 3 perhaps overstates anti-intellectism and irrationality, which is begging the question as to an alternative philosophy of Gentile's Hegelianism, and harken to Lukas defining anything non-Stalinist as "irrational", but it is certainly right about the "cult of action" and the "cult of death", fascism having grown out of the Italian WW1 Arditi ("the daring ones").
>>526268254>8. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak.">Actually, the left does this all the timeEvery society does it. This is one of the clearest points to showcase that Eco was not writing this as an intellectual analysis of “fascism”. The “weak but simultaneously strong” is a core part of all propaganda and you can see it constantly by liberals in modern politics. White nationalism is simultaneously a growing threat but also a tiny minority that will never win. You need to frame your enemy as weak so your supporters don’t lose hope, but strong so your supports don’t get lazy and think the battle is already over. It’s basic andn That’s why EVERYONE does it.
I think 1. is all you need. Dumb people just repeat what their parents did. Full stop
>>526268829>memeflagYour opinion is worthless>Eco is brilliant writer Was he tho?>but he is simply wrong on points 1 & 2, plus 3 overstates anti-intellectism and irrationality.That’s at least 3 of his 14 pointsInclude 8 as confirmed retardation because it’s him kvetching about a universal behaviour. For someone who is a brilliant writer his most famous work is very unintelligent.
>>526263142In the Weimar republic Berlin was the prostitution capital of Europe with children and animals available on most street corners. "We should improve society slightly" being le fascism is retarded. Acting like you act will make actual fascists.
>but if generations didn't follow in their ancestors' footsteps, there would be no cultureI have news for you, there is no culture anymore. If you need to remember something, we've got terabyte hard drives and supercomputers.
>>526259056Sounds based as fuck. I wish Donald Trump was a fascist.
>>526269393This. Instead, he's just a nepobaby opportunist at his finest.
>>526269123Yes, Eco is a brilliant literary writer. Perhaps 8 is a universal trait of political hyperbole but it certainly is a trait of fascism too, I don't see how you can claim it as illegitimate to include.Keep posting under a flag that informs LEO they have jurisdiction to subpoena your IP address though.
>>526269283Every city has prostitution. They always have and always will. Thomas Aquinas recognised this and endorsed prostitution as an eternal necessary evil in the 13th century. Prostitution declined greatly from the pre-WW1 era because respectable women became more available for pre-marital dating and sex, which shattered the 19th century need for men to use hordes of urban prostitutes to satisfy their sexual outlet as bachelors.
Eco is a retard and like all Italian traitors a physical coward. Fascism is not obsessed with tradition to the extent that no learning can be done, Fascism, the third position, is literally futurist. It would have propelled mankind to the stars by now. This is basic stuff, from D'anunzio, Gentile and Mussolini to Codreanu to Hitler and Gobbels this Eco is ill informed. Likely a mason or homosexual.
>>526269607>8 is a universal trait but it certainly is a trait of fascism tooYes, fascism exists under the universal.>I don't see how you can claim it as illegitimate to includeIt’s pointless to include as you already conceded. You could replace it with “drink water” and it would be as intellectual. If it’s a universal, then no intelligent person should include it as a defining characteristic of the particular. The reason Eco included it was so that he could label anyone he wanted a fascist. Again “Ur-fascism” isn’t a defintion, it’s a weapon.>Eco is a brilliant literary writer.Ur-fascism suggests otherwise.
ITT>ok but what about thing X doesn't that marginally fit one of the 14 points that in COMBINATION make up fascism?! Does that make thing x fascist too??>got you libtard!!!
You should post rat birds instead of whatever that is supposed to be.
>>526270017>Memeflag defends the interwar child brothels of Berlin
>>526259056Yeah not bad but that was true for the 20th century.The only common trait of 21st century "fascists" is>not wanting niggers and jeets to invade your country
>>526259056>if I dissimulate and call it a cult then it is badlol fuck off. There isn't even any fascism now. This is gay bullshit nonsense.
>>526270360All of these points can be easily applied to modern Russia under putin for example, so you're wrong.
>>526270139Unironically yes. You failed to address the substance of that critique your are crying about. (>>526266647)>The simplest way to show this is… how many of the 14 points do you need to tick to be a fascist?>Eco himself purposely doesn’t address this because he wants to subjectively apply his own work so he can call anyone he doesn’t like “fascist”.So what is something only fits 13 of the points?What about 12?What about 10?What about 7?What about 5?
>>526270465>im a retard who can only think in black and white terms and can't comprehend a gradient or a scale, so you're wrong The absolute state of pol
>>526270464All those points can be applied to the State of Israel.Do you think Israel is Fascist?What about the United Kingdom?How about the Soviet Union?
>>526259056>>526259140>>526259176So you’re saying that lefties are fascists?Good to know
>>526270464They've always been a little behind
>>526270095It's not a given that an ideology would use it. Not every movement lurches to hyperbole as a matter of course. It's only universal in the sense that the paranoid style of American politics is slowly infecting the rest of the world. It would certainly not be true about Australian politics outside of the Greens, One Nation, and Palmer's parties.Don't be a philistine. Go and ask your betters on >>>/lit/ about Eco's literary writing.
>>526259056umberto eco was a liberal homosexual (redundant) who grew up privileged under fascism and was eternally salty that he had to pretend to be publicly normal his whole life.
>>526270616>ITS A SCALEFigured you would say that. The UTTER STATE of /leftypol/. how much of a fascist do you need to be to actually be a fascist?13 of the points?What about 12?What about 10?What about 7?What about 5?If you can’t answer this simple question then you can’t define fascism, your just subjectively applying a list to weaponise a label (exactly what Eco intended).
>>526270139Points 1 & 2 are wrong about essential aspects of fascism though, not something tangential. Perhaps he writes with more nuance about reactionism in the book.
>>526270750>It's not a given that an ideology would use it. By that logic it’s not a given that a fascism would use it. There’s no ontological requirement that fascists assert the weak but strong propaganda. They most likely would do it it’s universal use in the political, but so would liberals and communists.>it’s all Americans faultStop being childish.>It would certainly not be true about Australian politicsIt’s constantly present in Australian politics.>g…. go…. go ask /lit/ to agree with meNo thanks.No one on 4chan known less about literature than /lit/No one on 4chan known less about politics than /pol/No one on 4chan known less about history than /his/
>>526259056Eco is a fat faggot retard "writer" who seethes because the second biggest Italian literary figure after Dante was D'Annunzio who was the most exemplary fascist of all, and more of a fascist than Mussolini ever was. Also all those points are good and correct things, no matter how much that fat cockslurper tries to distort them and present them in a negative light.
>>526270903>Perhaps he writes with more nuance about reactionism in the book.Eco seethed over reactionaries so he wanted to be able to label themFascists. Again it’s a weapon not a definition.
>>526270291Have you read the Satyricon about the trad Roman Empire's view on the subject? Or the Victorian newspaper expose on child prostitution in late 19th century London that prompted modern age of consent laws?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maiden_Tribute_of_Modern_BabylonWeimar Berlin was not something exceptional on this front. Very unhelpful myth that inhibits thinking and understanding, very dumb to fall for political mythologies. Awareness of the harms of child prostitution is a modern awakening that was primarily solved by the post-WW1 decline in prostitution in general.
>>526270631>All those points can be applied Indeed a large chunk can, did you think this was gonna be some gotcha? Lmao>what about the UkBarely even half of them so not so much >Soviet UnionA bit trickier but certainly a good chunk of the points. During the Stalin era id say fully fascist, yes
>>526270903>Points 1 & 2 are wrong about essential aspects of fascism though, not something tangentialThey really aren't but feel free to say how they are, memeflag.
>>526271375>Ur fascism defender is a (((MAP)))Like pottery If paying to rape children is ACKtually trad bro then they deboonks several points of this nonsense list right there.
i aint readin allat nigga heil hitla
Most of those are applicable to globohomo governments, their supporters and Antifa.Are they all fascists?
>>526259056>Fascism does not exist.There, I just refuted his bullshit. (NB. No, "orange man bad" doesn't mean fascism exists.)
The radical obsession with modernism at the expense of literally every other cultural facet of society, has been, and always will be, more bizzare and dangerous than any fascist pining for old empires.
>>526266647>His work has been refuted repeatedly.You are welcome to post a link to any such refutation whenever you're able.
>>526259056>NOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST HAVE TRADITIONS AND CULTURE >Unless you're brownNigger
>>526272062>t. Retarded burgermutt misunderstanding basic pointsNowhere does he say "tradition = le bad" in those, maybe gain some reading comprehension
>>526259176>>526259140>>526259056Umberto Eco is a Western liberal revisionist academic who basically re-defined "fascism" as not being socially/culturally liberal enough. That's it. All that wall of text comes down to is, "if you believe in traditional ideas of family and society and if you want to live in a cohesive and functional nation-state, then you are le fascist."Eco is a charlatan, just like that faggot Roger Griffin.The traditional definition of fascism has always been that it is a merger of corporate and state power, which is exactly what the Pentagon, Klaus Schwab, and Larry Fink of BlackRock (and the World Economic Forum) want to impose on all of us. But, we can't have that conversation.So, they give stupid liberals this bullshit from Umberto Eco to point to so that they can bicker over a meaningless culture war while BlackRock continues to asset strip the middle class and buy up every house and bring us closer to "you will own nothing, you will have privacy, you will eat the bugs, you will get the latest updated booster injection, you will live in the pod, and you will be happy."
>>526260385It’s as far away from syncretism as can be. It’s almost the hallmark of fascism that it is culturally isolationist and puritan. You are clearly like sixteen or seventeen on here regurgitating bullshit theory that some fucking midwit wrote. Go read the fascists themselves if you want to learn what fascism is. They know best. You don’t learn how to sprint a race from a person in a wheelchair.>Inb4 I dOnT wAnT tO rEaD a FAsCisTs WOrkThen you’ll die simply validating your own view with adjacent perspectives and will never actually challenge yourself to think.
>>526259056>>526259140>>526259176>cult of traditionbasically universal. you're telling me liberals don't engage in cultural syncretism at risk of internal contradiction? lol>rejection of modernismfascism is the idolization of the modern government>action for actions sakevery open ended. if your beliefs motivate an action, is it action for belief or for its own sake?>disagreement is treasonliberalism has cancel culture that devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning>Fear of difference>often in the form of racism1. because fear of difference between leftwing and rightwing doesn't exist?2. the fascists literally didn't believe in race>Appeal to a frustrated middle classsounds like a common democratic strategy>Obsession with a plot"Diversity is our Strength" "MAGA" etc.>Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak."Like how the "far right" is supposed to be a threat to Our Democracy but also fringe powerless losers?>"Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare"fair enough this mentality is distinctly fascist>"Contempt for the weak,"In the 19th/early 20th century, France, UK, and America all had eugenics programs, and nowadays the elite loathe their "pale, male, stale" white populations>"Everybody is educated to become a hero," which leads to the embrace of a cult of death.1. conflating heroes with suicidal romanticism says more about Eco than fascism2. suicidal empathy is a death cult that now defines liberalism. Renee Good would like a word with you.>Machismouniversal outside feminist societies> "Selective populism" >the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will ie representative democracy?>Newspeaklike political correctness?or calling women birthing-persons?0/10this is just a laundry list of vague sociopolitical things that Eco fashioned into a boogeyman.
>>526259056The fucked part is that you realize that describes both parties in the US.
>>526272530Youre only supposed to apply it to your enemies. Groups you like are exempt.
>>526259056He’s was a retard and he’s just making shit up.Pat Robertson was not a fascist lol. He’s just calling everything he doesn’t like fascist with zero regard to what fascism is as a political philosophy.
>>526270892>how much of a fascist do you need to be to actually be a fascist?>13 of the points?>What about 12?>What about 10?>What about 7?>What about 5?Fascism is not an ideology that can be defined. It is a attitude or mode if being/form of life created by appealing to an affected aesthetics of power.It literally is just breaking stuff to look tough.It exists when a particular clique decides to seize power and emotionally charge people towards a political end. Emotions elicited by aesthetic appeals need not be rigorous, hence why fascism escapes rigorous definitions. It is politics attempted by unserious dilettantes who end up shooting themselves dead in the bunker.Picrel happens to all retards thinking they can be a big boss withou actually working out people's needs and desires analytically
>>526259056He clearly didn't spend enough time around niggers. All these faggots need to live in a thin walled apartment with niggers on every side of them.
>>526271508>did you think this was gonna be some gotcha?Nope, I figures there was a 60-70% chance youo would agree. I just want to hear you say it. If its true just say "Israel is a fascist state".>Barely even half of them so not so much Point 1 - The post-war liberal "anti-racist" tradition. Definitely "characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction".Point 2 - probably notPoint 3 - true regarding the UK approach to anti-immigration sentiment which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection4 - easily true5 - true. The UK liberals fears the native population.6 - Yes UK politans appeal to the middle class.7 - Yes the UK government constantly cries about the growing tide of the far right and far-right plots to turn the population against immigrationPoint 8 - easily9 - the UK government is hostile to those who preach peace with Russia. Calling them russian bots and traitors10 - probably not, but this also wasn't really true for fascist Italy so....11 - an absurd and vague point so I will leave it out12 - not true.13 - selective populism is very true, "the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will" and that will is infinite immigration thats why we never asked and will never stop.14 - easy, everyone that opposes the UKs government is a "fascist" or "white supremacist"So 10/14and the Soviet union also easily fits most of those.
>>526259056>6. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class," fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.Funny how commie shit is already out of date because kikes destroyed the middle class.
>>526271218The weak but strong is an essential quality of fascism because it is inherently a vanguardist movement where action by a small sect (weak by being outnumbered) of arditi will triumph by virtue of their vitality and dynamism (strong). Add into that Hitler's use of the Jews as a universal Satan, whilst not present in Italian fascism until very late, inherently casts a weak/strong dynamic: weak because the devil is winning everywhere, strong because they will win over the devil.I can't help your philstinism. You will just have to hear that Eco is a brilliant writer of literature and take whatever you can from that fact to the degree of your literary cultivation. Eco writes encyclopedic mediaeval and period novels which are well liked by chuds who enjoy larping as knights and monks.
>>526272714>The post-war liberal "anti-racist" tradition.This is the retards you're arguing on here btw lmao>tradition is when le belief!!!
>>526272645oh so white americans are fascists? ok lol
>>526272336>corporatism*signs*Its sad that you can be right for a large section of your post and then go full redditor.>a merger of corporate and state power, which is exactly what the Pentagon, Klaus Schwab, and Larry Fink of.......Corporatism =/= Corporatocracy
>>526272645I don't expect a retarded American who worships coca cola and McDonalds to understand the Third Position. Fascism and National Socialism are opposed to communism and unfettered capitalism but combine the positive aspects of both socialism and the free market, all directed by the leader-the most capable man in the nation, for the benefit of the people. Just because you dont know how to read anything more than the Burger King menu doesn't mean it doesn't exist-read The Doctrine of Fascism, Mein Kampf and the Manifesto for the Abolition of Interest Slavery
>>526271219D'Annunzio was something different to fascism. He created the entirety of what would become fascist theatrics (and the theatrics of all later political movement). Fascism suppressed his particular movement that still existed after Fiume, and sold Italy (and his beloved Latin France) out to the Germans and Austrians he hated.
>>526272946When Fascism uses the words sydacalist and corporatist, they are not referring to the modern definition of corporation that we use as a synonym for big business. It's the meaning of the root word, a corporate society means 'in cooperation'.
>>526259278this. ive repeatedly been telling people im now a supporter of fascism. i dont know how to make it any more clear
>>526259056>debunked fascismSorry Sweatie, but you can't debunk fascism ;-)We all wanted this, we voted for this, we won, and we are going to control everything for the rest of your pathetic life.If you had just tried to act normal, none of this would be happening. But no, you leftist retards decided that you wanted to try to speedrun gay space nigger communist dystopia. Demanding trannies have the right to groom kids and trying to force everyone to take experimental bloodclot vaxx and trying to import infinite third world shitskins and assassinating Charlie Kirk because he made your side look completely retarded in open debates of ideas.We had enough, and now we are going to transform America into an Imperial White Nationalist Christofascist Reich, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it but seethe and dilate and get shot in the face by ICE.Have a #blessed day! ;-)
>>526271219D'Annunzio was a degenerate faggot, speed freak and cocaine addict who only wanted to go on adventurist expeditions and didn't care whom he hurt.>>526272909If black people wouldn't turn into pimping, drug dealing and scamming niggers always butchingvavout how they are down while others are up at the drop of a hat, maybe we could get along, but here we are.
>>526272645>Fascism is not an ideology that can be defined.Then there is no point in discussing it. Human beings reason by means of concepts and definitions. If you cant define or operate with respect to definitions then you cant reason or discuss something, let alone make any laws or policy relating to it. So with that in mind I will choose to mock you because you admitted you aren't a serious person.>It literally is just breaking stuff to look tough.Then all the earliest liberals and communists were fascists.congratz
>>526273217You dont understand. You only see the asthetics or the features common to authoritarianism across the spectrum; not the substance of the 3rd Position-a sydnacalist/national socialist state, how it works and what it means.
>>526271668Not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is there were far more child prostitutes in Bismarck's Berlin than in Weimar Berlin, the same is true for every European city. The pre-WW1 period was much worse and much more decadent on the prostitution front than inter-war Europe.
>>526273473That's just a lie.
>>526272895Whats your alternative understanding? You are behaving in a very anti-intellectual way. So guess you are a fascist according to Eco.I notice you STILL havent answered this (>>526270892) You claim its a scale (a boring and tired response) but when I point out that there has to be a line somewhere to distinguish fascists from non-fascists you run away from the argument.
>>526272336>The traditional definition of fascism has always been that it is a merger of corporate and state power, which is exactly what the Pentagon, Klaus Schwab, and Larry Fink of BlackRock (and the World Economic Forum) want to impose on all of us.Except for the part where the middle class, industry and White people are liquidated in favour of a global non-White slave plantation.
>>526259056>>4. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.lmao
>>526263385>Those are subjectiveAh the typical marxist reply on appealing to subjectivity when he is incapable of arguing against what has been brought up. >Cultures and societies evolve and change over timeAnd yet there are still centuries if not millennia of history that tie a specific people together which they may use as a foundation for their own identity that is not just a random mishmash of bullshit.
>>526273290I know, that way my point. The brainlet was saying that mussolini said corporatism so therefore he wants a McState TM *all rights reserved*.That confusion comes from Gnome Chomsky who either stupidly or intentionally misused Corporatism publicly and have caused people to misunderstand the words meaning.
>>526273424>I will choose to mock youYou and your ideology will die out because you're an insufferable manchild and if you ever get married, your wife will selfdestruct your entire family because you won't let anyone talk to you because you won't let go of your childhood trauma.
>>526272946>full redditorIt's sad that you cannot tell the difference between a redditor and a libertarian critique of Klaus Schwab/ Larry Fink style technocracy. It really says a lot about how much this place has changed. I'm not really libertarian anymore, but this place lost whatever intellectual edge it used to have once libertarainism lost credibility with most posters here.>corporatism>Corporatism is a political ideology and political system of interest representation and policymaking whereby corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, come together and negotiate contracts or policy (collective bargaining) on the basis of their common interestsThis is literally what the World Economic Forum wants. They now call each interested party "stakeholders." It is literally the same thing as the definition of corporatism -- at least the standard definition.>corporatocracy>Corporatocracy or corpocracy is an economic, political and judicial system controlled or influenced by business corporations or corporate interests.the difference between corporatism and corporatocracy is a distinction without a difference:You can literally have a corporatist system where corporations put their thumbs on the scales to dominate everything, which is literally what they want at the World Economic Forum.
>>526272645Facile and stupid. Both Hitler and Mussolini were accomplished and successful politicians. Fascism has defining characteristics and coherent ideologies. You can read contemporary academic literature on it: Roger Griffin, Modernism and Fascism: The Sense of a Beginning under Mussolini and Hitler, or his shorter works like pic.
