You can shit on identity politics all you want, it's just more engaging and feels more real.Class consciousness is really something that becomes real only when there's serious mass poverty, starvation, unemployment and the like, such as in pre-revolutionary Russia. Being a communist in the opulent 21st century West feels like a total larp, along the lines of larpagans and e-tradcaths.
>>533166039Economic class in evolutionarily novel and abstract compared to race and gender, so fighting for the interests of your economic class might not give you quite the same intensity of caveman brain tingles as fighting for the interests of people who look like you. It may, as a result, feel subjectively "fake."
>>533166040>so fighting for the interests of your economic classOkay, but what interests are those? The only class interest I have is the abolition of work so that I don't have to wagecuck. But nobody really knows or can't agree on how this would be achieved, so what's the selling point of the left exactly?
>>533166041>what interests are those?Things like not being exploited by landlords and employers, having a fair return for your labor, having fair access to things that are produced collectively or by no one and so rightfully belong to everyone in some sense, having opportunities to advance in proportion to your ability, having healthcare and a safety net in the event that you unexpectedly become too sick to work, having a healthy environment in opposition to businesses who might stand to benefit by polluting where you live, etc.
>>533166039Because most American socialist/communist orgs are pretty trashy, but if truth be told this extends to every political org across the spectrum in the US too. It's one of those unfortunate things baked into the system.
>>533166039Class consciousness is a meme pushed by ideologues who usually attach their understandings of class to various other belief systems that has nothing to do wirh just evaluating class and is in reality just any other form of idpol and a false tribalism built around ideology.
>>533166044>Class consciousness is a memeIt's not a meme.>is in reality just any other form of idpol and a false tribalism built around ideology.No
>>533166042The thing is most of that is just hopium. Whenever communists got into power the class discrepancies never went away and in some cases became worse.
>>533166044I don't follow. Also, why is idpol used as a slur?
>>533166045>not a memeIt is a meme. Theres no such thing as class consciousness in reality. Its an ideological delusion >NoYes
>>533166043I mean when you come down to it all real world political expressions are trashy. The only authenticity is when you post online.Preferably you should post on non-user-profile-having image boards because profile-having sites like X force you into being a slave to audience capture and expectations.
>>533166047>why is idpol used as a slurI wasnt using it as a slur I was just designating it as a form of identity politics contrary to what a lot of leftists claim. >I dont followThe entire dichotomy of workers vs owners or the concept that class is the primary determinant of your real behavior and identity is a delusion. We are much more complex socially and its a reductivistic lense to view the world with
i was watching a documentary about the beatles and their first time in america, americans think all brits are whimsical but the beatles were actually lower class kids who lived on in the bad parts of engerland, their manager brian was the one who cleaned them up and made them act cute. they ended up visiting the British embassy but the people there were all posh upper class people and the beatles were treated like shit, george harrison almost cried.in modern times i feel like classism is more stealth, more sinister, americans compared to the brits have always been more obsessed with race than class
>>533166039Race and nationalism are more important than class but chuds are deathly afraid of the trillionaire elites and pretend that labor movements weren't brutally suppressed back when the country was over 95% white.
>>533166039Weaponized envy. Its created after the death of God in the west and in its wake, left a void for the seven deadly sins to take root. Marxism is the hostbed for the dead sins, Envy is the prime evil that is used to spread the marxist ideology.
>>533166053I keep telling people this but they don't get it. They think these ideologies are somehow separate from psychology and morality.
>>533166039Just look at the "people" in your picrel
>>533166039>Class consciousness is really something that becomes real only when there's serious mass poverty, starvation, unemployment and the like, such as in pre-revolutionary RussiaClass consciousness in 1917 Russia might also be dramatically overstated. The Russian Empire immediately descended into various nationalist civil wars during this time, they all just happened to be conquered by the Soviets who controlled the industrial heartland, but it's not as if the Ukrainian peasantry, Georgians, Baltics, Finns, Armenians, etc. were marching hand in hand with the proles of St Petersburg
>>533166040This is basically just saying "I hate the true working class for being morons"
>>533166039I mean, you're kinda contradicting yourself here. On one hand, you're saying that identity politics is more engaging and feels more real, but then that class consciousness is a larp... and your reference point for larp poltics are popular online strands of identity politics. But here's the thing, your ideas here are all just based on how you feel, on vibes. And that's precisely how reactionary identity politics operate, its all non-material. And in a highly alienated, individualistic and consumerist society like the US, new identities like the ones you mentioned are being created from thin air all the time. And like you said, these identities and the supposed political causes that go with them feel real and engaging, because they make you feel like you are part of something grander than the actual conditions of your daily life. This can also spill over into left wing spaces, because you get a lot of people who are primarily drawn in by wanting to embody some kind of aesthetic of historical communism, rather than by their actual material interests. But at the end of the day, class is real. You have to earn money to eat and keep a roof over your head. For most people that involves selling your time and effort for wages. Its in your interest to get as much out of that arrangement as possible. Its in your bosses' interest to get as much out of you as possible for as little as possible. However, organising politics around this basic and obvious conflict of interest is borderline impossible in the US because of how deeply ingrained individualism is there.
>>533166039Birthsign consciousness is the only thing that exists.
>>533166059Based elder scrolls enjoyer
Because it's not applicable to the modern world. It was conceived of in an entirely different political and economic landscape.
>>533166046>at last we have achieved the worker's utopia>now we can finally construct the gigantic golden idol to our Supreme Leader that was always our fondest desire and not something we are forced to do at gunpoint
>>533166039Communist will claim that national identity or religious identity are fake social constructs which shouldnt even be considered. They will also claim that demonstrably material identities like race or ethnicity dont matter either, but "class" identity is totally real. And by this they mean working class, as in literally anyone who works for a wage. So engineers at NASA, plumbers, starbucks baristas, brain surgeons, car mechanics, and highschool teachers are all "the same"Its purely outdated LARP ship and its very telling that only the most bottom tier, low skilled, uneducated, and useless wage slave types are ever into this shit. >so fighting for the interests of your economic classmaybe, but every single communist alive today is a thirdworldist. This means their entire ideology revolves around dismantling the prosperity and material wealth of white/western countries and giving it over to brown people/the third world. If youre a white person of any background, communism represents literally cucking out against your own interest
>>533166046best part is that the statue looks ugly and retarded.
Reminder each one of those faggots is evil and wants to destroy you
Communism is probably the most evil of all ideologies because it cannot even be honest with itself
>>533166065>t. wants to kill random people just because of their skin color
>>533166039Class consciousness failed really hard already.In 1914 European socialists, people who should've been at the forefront of it had an opportunity that would never repeat itself. All the countries involved in the coming war had strong and coordinated labour movements, a likewise coordinated general strike would cause governmental collapse and make them heroes for stopping a war. Instead, whether British, German, French or any other socialists and labour unionists they've all decided that actually being led by aristocrats to fight other proletarians is ok, for nationalist reasons(sometimes pan-nationalist as was the case in Russia).Leftists of all types were so trashed by this failure that you've had things like cultural marxism developing to explain why did they waste this opportunity
>>533166067Hes right, I've never met more belligerent, vindictive, petty, selfish, and miserable people as these far left types, especially when they like to identify themselves as "empaths"
>>533166045it is a meme, and you're a faggot
>>533166058>I mean, you're kinda contradicting yourself here. On one hand, you're saying that identity politics is more engaging and feels more real, but then that class consciousness is a larp... and your reference point for larp poltics are popular online strands of identity politicsMy reference point are religious politics. But then if you look at e.g. politics of sex and gender, I would say that is more real than class. Yet both religion and sex are dumped by commielarpers into the "idpol" category
>>533166039>Why does class consciousness feel so fake?>You can shit on identity politics all you want, it's just more engaging and feels more real.I think the most Marxist argument I can make is that it was never all "there" ("naturally") but it's something that either develops or fails to develop politically (so it's a political problem rather than, like, an anthropological one), and there are material conditions that are required before that can happen. Go back 100 years, it was easier for the working class to organize itself politically through parties and unions, like there were 3,000 workers in a factory in close proximity and they drank at the same bars, and hung out together after work and form bonds and begin to trust each other (and also get bones broken for betraying others), on top of having a latent class awareness existing in the background. Working class people tend to make friends. The petit-bourgeoisie doesn't make friends, they just make frenemies. The proles are also more willing to stand up for themselves, even if that's not political or collective but individualistic like in terms of smacking some bitch up because she was talking to her man.>Being a communist in the opulent 21st century West feels like a total larp, along the lines of larpagans and e-tradcaths.It feels like a LARP yeah and inorganic. It can come across as like a mental illness for downwardly mobile petit-bourgeoisie who get a job for a week and are like oh my God this is the worst, we need full communism now.
>>533166053lame
>>533166039>Class consciousness is really something that becomes real only when there's serious mass poverty, starvation, unemployment and the like, such as in pre-revolutionary Russia.I'm skeptical of this though. Like this is just "shit getting bad" leads to class consciousness. There's a lot of e-commies who believe that but for all I know you actually just get "the workers" deciding that everyone is out for themselves and they just need to focus on their own survival. Like one of the outcomes of the revolutionary civil war in Russia was total economic collapse and the working class dying en masse in the fighting and from disease, and scattering back to villages where they grew up which emptied out the cities because there was literally no food in the cities. It was a post-apocalyptic kind of situation. You also did have a lot of radicals there and it was Russia too so you know those maniacs were going to do something wild:https://youtu.be/_d1AmMt6A9sA lot of communists focus on that period and romanticize that period when it was fucked up. There were mass socialist parties in late-19th century Europe and most people weren't starving like in terms of general famine conditions. Life was hard, but real wages were generally rising. A lot of people worked in these huge factories in a period of booming industrial production. Also longshoremen is a good example. The San Francisco waterfront once had thousands of longshoremen clocking in every day. It was a huge number of people that was socially very concentrated. A big strike erupted in 1934 that resulted in nine dead and the city being paralyzed for weeks.
>>533166069>doesn't (and can't) deny he's just as vindictive and miserable towards brown people
"Class" and income is a poor indicators of social statues. What truly matters is power.A drug kingpin belongs to the lower class if not the underclass, but he is still more powerful than a white collar worker.A policeman could be from the middle class but be defacto nobility compared to everyone else.
>>533166039>Being a communist in the opulent 21st century West feels like a total larpit feel that way because the western communist are mostly sons and daughters of the middle class
>>533166071>politics of sex and genderHow are they more real than class? The politics of sex and gender are entirely the product of managing the division and reproduction of labour.
>>533166078>The politics of sex and gender are entirely the product of managing the division and reproduction of labour.No they're not, they're the product of genders existing.
Because class consciousness is fake and Marxism is bullshit.
>>533166076>"Class" and income is a poor indicators of social statues. What truly matters is power.I think "class" is more, like, do you need a job to survive or not.>>533166077>it feel that way because the western communist are mostly sons and daughters of the middle classThey tend to romanticize the working class but they're scared of the working class and can become disillusioned or they try to substitute themselves or their own group as the agent of change. Also their own theory is that the working class is formed by capitalism, but then it will also carry the contradictions of capitalism and won't behave in predictable ways, because they're not following some theory. If you got into Marxism by reading a book about it rather than through some kind of IRL struggle then that by definition probably makes you an intellectual. I think this is more prole-coded:https://youtu.be/tHszuh5C7hs
>>533166075This is projecting. I make it a point not to hate people, but majority of leftist boil down to just spiteful and jealous assholes who wear this mask of pseudo empathy (a term they love to use but dont understand)
>>533166077This was Mao's position and it's not wrong. It's not a feeling, it is a logical fact. There is no western proletariat. LARPers should find something more productive.
>>533166067>muh heckin racism against holy BIPOC >100+ million deaths from communismCommunism everybody
>>533166084>noo you can't just call out my own racial extremist views that's communism
>>533166085I literally did not mention anything about race whatsoever. I just said how evil the faggots in OP truly are and then pointed out the mass death communism has caused, so all you fags can do is call me a muh racist out of nowhereI think that was a literal thing somewhere that communists would just call their opponents and critics
>>533166067>>533166075>>533166085You mean like how the left hate any White person that won't join their cult and hate themselves and want to destroy their own countries and prostrate themselves for brown people and have a wild, convoluted, every changing definition of racism that is nothing more than purity spiraling
The Muslims pretty much disprove communism and the bulk of Marx/Engel’s predictions about society. The masses of the Middle East, Africa and Asia explicitly chose pure idealism over the materialist worldview of Marx. The very proletariat who these guys think will push for socialism instead dream of recreating “feudalism” (early medieval Mecca/Medina were not feudal in the European sense but you get my point). The same people Western communists think are their allies eradicated communists from Iran, Indonesia, etc. At some point you’ve got to look at the ground reality and admit the theory was wrong.>t. Ex-Marxist
>>533166039It doesn't. It's just that the average working man is an easily distracted retard falling for psyops. The class with the most class consciousness are the wealthy elites. They are the most aware of classes and their primary concern is to keep the lower classes in check so they don't rise and kill them.
>>533166039It's just American speaking because Americans have a "we are a classless society" ideology and an atomized society, despite having massive wealth equality compared to places like old Europe where class consciousness is very real but there's nowhere as much inequality.
>>533166039In Europe, class consciousness isn't just about money; it’s about culture, accent, and history. In places like the UK or France, class was historically codified by law (nobility vs. commoners). Even though those laws are gone, the social "memory" remains. You can be a wealthy person in Europe but still be considered "working class" because of your background. In America, money is the primary metric, which makes the lines feel more fluid, even if they aren't.The "American Dream" often acts as a psychological buffer against class solidarity. While the United States currently has higher levels of income inequality than most European nations, the cultural "software" running in the background is very different. Meritocracy ideology: The idea is that your status is a result of individual effort rather than birthright. This leads to several unique social behaviors:The "Middle Class" Default: Almost everyone in America (from someone making $30,000 to someone making $300,000) tends to self-identify as "middle class." Acknowledging oneself as "working class" or "elite" feels un-American to many.As John Steinbeck says, the American poor don’t see themselves as an exploited proletariat, but as future rich people who are just having a bad week. This prevents the formation of a "labor" identity.American culture prioritizes the individual (the "Self-Made Man"), whereas European history is rooted in collective identities (Guilds, Estates, and later, strong Trade Unions). This result in an atomized society. Americans often divide themselves by "culture war" issues (urban vs. rural, religion, etc.) rather than economic ones. Unlike a dense European city where the wealthy and poor might live blocks apart, American zoning and car culture physically separate the classes, making the inequality less "visible" in daily life.The U.S. has a rigid class structure, but the culture insists that everyone is just an individual on their own unique journey.
>>533166039Marxists often point to False Consciousness as the primary obstacle. This is when members of the subordinate class adopt the ideology and values of the ruling class, essentially acting against their own economic interests.Common "distractions" cited by theorists include:Nationalism: Identifying more with a country than a global class.Consumerism: The belief that individual success is defined by what you buy.Individualism: The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality that suggests failure is a personal flaw rather than a systemic issue.In the 21st century, class consciousness has become a bit more complicated. The traditional "factory worker vs. factory owner" model has shifted due to:>The Gig Economy:Freelancers and Uber drivers often feel like "individual business owners" rather than a unified workforce.>Middle-Class Blur Many workers who are technically "proletariat" (they trade labor for wages) identify as middle class due to higher salaries or education levels.>IntersectionalityThe realization that class consciousness is often tied to race, gender, and geography, making "unity" harder to define under a single banner.You can see class consciousness in action during unionization drives (like those at Amazon or Starbucks) or in the rhetoric of modern political movements that pit "the 99%" against "the 1%." It is the shift from feeling like an unlucky individual to feeling like a member of a powerful, suppressed group.
>>533166088I like the critical theory types. The socialists, communists who just glaze Islamists, no. One thing about Marx and Engels is they were critical of a lot of socialists in their own time, and there's a whole section of the Communist Manifesto which lays out a bunch of versions of socialism that they saw as reactionary. Updated to the present I think a lot of Soviet nostalgia-type communism is a reactionary phenomenon that leads only to hysterical demagoguery. We're in a bizarre situation where communists support all the past revolutions but liberals and nationalist people support all the modern ones and are getting their popular uprisings.Communists have their dead generations weighting on the brains of the nationalists and liberals, while liberals actually have their regime changes. There haven't been communist revolutions for a very long time, around 50 years. Instead communists cling to idiotic and evil military dictatorships in Africa.
>>533166088That's just not true. There was a point when the Middle East was going through an intense westerniser, socialist, secularist phase. What happened is that the various modernizing states fucked up, either defeated by Israel, secular monarchs who turned out to be intensively corrupt and tyrannical, regimes failing due economic fuck ups. The modern religious intensity in the Middle East is a Modern Reactionary movement: a rebellion vs modernity because in their eyes modernity failed them.
>>533166039>ITT: a cadre of political ""'materialists""" making universalist claims about class consciousness and solidarity whose ontology is predicated completely on narrativeLol lmao even
>>533166039>feel so fakeYou are still fantasizing that you belong to a group that is maintained by or created by capitalists. You group ID is encouraged to take credit for accomplishments you had nothing to do with and hate people you never met. It is accomplished because you have a fantasy character that you want the people around you to think is you but "you" are just a wagie hiding in the shame of your poverty. If bullshit is true, your life has meaning and the exploitation of your labor is not the you you pretend to be but is the actual world you actually live in is stripped of the retarded bullshit, you see that you are just a slave to capitalists.
>>533166092>Nationalism: Identifying more with a country than a global class.Yeah wow crazy that I'd identify more with my own countrymen who share my race, religion, history, language, values and outlook, than with a fellow "worker" from Botswana.
>>533166039I think you misunderstand the idea, though many Marxists make it out as if it should be as strong as family bond, which imo is a mistake.But it is real and NOT having any class consciousness is extremely detrimental to you because you don’t recognize your value in society.It’s like being a slave, should the slave recognize and come to terms with being a slave? Yes because only then can he seek to overcome it.Does that mean he is forever sworn to all to all other slaves? Maybe to some degree but not as a replacement for other identities.
>>533166039Because marxism is retarded and false and plumbers from pakistan have nothing in common with window cleaners from scotland and welders from australia. Also, by 1960 the latest, it was obvious that the whole idea of communism was fucking gone, completely pointless as the welfare state has killed it. There were no longer factories employing tens of thousands of industrial workers each shift, housing them in hovels and paying them in company scrip. The workers movement was over, they got what they were protesting for, they had it good now, most workers living well enough to have zero need for a violent revolution overthrowing the government and the whole thing just petered out. Then the factory towns like Detroit or Pittsburgh has shut down anyway and the industrial era of the US was over. You will never form a movement out of burger flippers, amazon drivers and starbucks baristas.
What board was this moved here from?
What?
>>533166039because it doesn't matter how poor an individual White male is, Democrats will still tell him he's more privileged than a rich woman or a rich nigger
>>533166039
>>533166039Imagine believing a brain surgeon or an engineering is your enemy because he's earning more money than you do for putting the fries in the bag
>>533166039>cultural marxismnot even once
>>533166039in the uk at least, it is about making those a rung or two higher on the economic ladder worse off so you feel better. it is not about lifting the poor from poverty but bringing those who have a better car, a nicer house and more holidays down to your level so you don't feel so sad. the mission is not poverty eradication but affluence destruction.
>>533166040Keep calling us morons, we will defeat you in the end and history will forget about you.
>>533166039Communists actually killed their corrupt "elites" in many revolutions
