>"if people are on UBI then they will be totally dependent on the government. the government can then control their access to things."but isnt this already true? most people, even people who work, are still basically totally dependent on the government to fulfill their basic needs. like water, food, transportation, electricity. most people would not be able to fulfill these needs on their own or even with just private companies, because the government does a lot to make the infrastructure possible. if the government wanted to, right now, they could probably shut off your access to the internet (and in fact many countries do this sometimes), and could probably even shut off your access to water, electricity or using roads. so whats the difference? i dont really see how UBI makes people more dependent on the government than they are already. because they are pretty much totally dependent on them right now! even money itself is government fiat
>>533439929It's corpoganda
>>533439929>the government has too much control? just give them even more control
>>533439929>but isnt this already true?It's not 0% or 100%The closer to 100% control, the more fucked you areWe barely made it with the covid hoax. 50% of ppl were ready to be globally enslaved
>>533440028i fail to see how UBI would give the government more control than they have right now. i think government control is already close to 100% but people dont really like to admit it to themselves. even when people work, their money comes from government fiat and comes electronically. already your access to it could probably be compromised at any time.
>>533439929>are still basically totally dependent on the government to fulfill their basic needs. like water, food, transportation, electricityWater is privatised; if you're really paranoid you can filter and store waterElectricity can either be privatised, or decentralised and generated at homeTransportation is privatised, plus nobody bans walking or bicyclesFood is privatisedAll of the services you just described are privatised.> if the government wanted to, right now, they could probably shut off your accessBy doing what?Giving out my image to every store and say 'don't sell this this man specifically'?By putting shade over my solar panels?There's degrees of control and saying 'here gov, control my finances directly' is 1 degree of control, immediate, direct. Like EBTs right now, only certain foods are allowed if the government changes its mind. NHS denies healthcare if verbally you're a racist (even though that's just verbal, it isn't physical violence).If the government has to come up with a really convoluted plan (that is likely to harm other people indirectly), then that's several degrees of separation.Never give government direct power over anything, tyranny lies that way.
>>533439929Why no age adjusted UBI? It starts with $300 at birth per month and from age 18 onward, you get $1 more every month until you die.Problem solved.
>>533441011Because inflation would make that $300 a month worthless before the kid even turns 10
The biggest UBI counterargument is that corporations barely pay taxes, how would anyone imagine they are going to suddenly pay up to withhold an entire society that only consumes?
>>533440383for the vast majority of people water is not privatized. the water getting to their home is a public utility. and for transportation, most roads are also not private, they are public.
>>533441444Wow roads and water. Thats the gayest shit I’ve ever heard. Stop being such a worthless fuck. Name 8 cool things before I eat your soul.
>>533439929I don't want to pay even more fucking taxes
>>533439929>but isnt this already true?Yes, but it wasn't so in the past, so it needs to be fixed, not cemented further. Are you a nigger?
>>533439929I would probably stop caring about politics entirely if I was guaranteed an income each week. I could stop caring about a lot of things, actuall.
>>533441551>wow roads and water, this gay shit that everyone depends upon and uses every single day of their lives
>>533439929The real question is, is there going to be enough for everyone to cover basic needs, or is it going to all crash in a few short years?
People in government are not masterminds who can just "flip a switch" like people say. They're balancing plates: one of those plates is inflation, another is the labour market. They're worried that if they do anything except what's tried and tested, everything will come crashing down. It takes real courage, intelligence and leadership to try anything new at all, and people like that are rare
>>533441129> Because inflationAdjusting to inflation, maybe?
>>533441618>I trust the words of the cabal ruling over meIt is over for you
>>533439929Goverment controls all of these things, they have nothing to do with sustaining the access to it. If the goverment dissapears over night, nothing would change for the worse, everything would function as normal. In fact things finally would get better
>>533439929You assume UBI will even be a thing. It won't be. All profits will go to shareholders and company executives. You will have to starve to death.
>>533439929The main problem with UBI is the same as with fiat currency. It's all based on faith. A little but on violence and alliances but if occqms razor is applied, it's just faith. This means for a nation to implement UBI it would require the approval of other states. If USA wants UBI then china, germany, zimbabwe and estonia all must give you the go a head. And same for estonia. UBI requires international faith. Otherwise your currency just crashes because nobody wants it. Until we're all under one flag, and the racists of pol don't like that, we will never have UBI.
>>533441727COVID and the subsequent inflation and current oil crisis proves financial markets, currencies, and money are all basically fake constructs.
>>533439929NO!!!You are not going get UBI !!!You are going get some sort of DEPOPULATION EVENT!AKA WAR!!!
>>533439929Look at ghetto niggers and White trash.There is your answer.GIB ME DAT.You would have what 3/4 of the entire population devolve into that.If you don't have a purpose to get out of bed and move your ass, you will become absolutely worthless.What exactly do you think you will get to do with this welfare? Travel the world? Eat out? You are going to become a artist with your free time?If people have no purpose that will end the human race. Just like that fucking rat utopia that they built and every time it failed.
>>533441635Youre so fucking clueless. We don’t need almost anything they spend our taxes on. It’s all basically burned as far as I’m concerned. Those fuckers build the cities to be civil war proof, and legalize their own thugs to shake us down. It’s actually sickening. You can’t even leave, they say they own 100% of the land. Laughable these guys are overdue for theirs.
>>533441859The problem is that Whites are going to become a minority and no amount of libertarian individualism is going to save us from having Indians as our bosses. I would rather be a vagrant leeching off the state with an infinite money glitch than be subject to the whims of immigrants. Puritan work ethic be damned.
UBI made no sense when it just some commie ass lazy ass shit for niggers to have an excuse to not work. But now that technology has come so far it's going to be 100% necessary in every 1st world country in the next 30 or so years. Once we have robots doing nearly everything for us there simply just won't be enough jobs to keep 80% of the 1st world working. I for one am glad at least someone with money and influence (Elon) is talking about it, before some megakike sweeps the issue under the rug and pretends it isn't real. I don't want to wage slave anymore. I'm sure most people on this site don't want to wage slave. And just because UBI exists doesn't mean you can't find ways to work for yourself to make extra money. For the people like me who can go years without really buying anything at all, I probably will just retire and then be able to focus on doing actual work I want to do by and for myself, with no monetary incentive weighing on my mind 24/7 and I think that's great. UBI is different from communism for so many reasons, and we will not be able to live in the future without it. It's either get the roadwork for UBI up and running now or pedophile elite finds a way to kill 60% of the planet's population and make more fake jew daycare jobs like how HR currently exists.
>>533441660the current social security systems are literal pyramid schemes that require ever growing pool of goy cattle to put in money to be immediately paid out to the ever growing pool of unemployed and retiredthe former is actually shrinking everywhere except countries which are already importing migrants by fuckload to offset itnow make it 10x worsewho is going to foot this fucking bill?not me, I blow third on my income on social and health already, I will just quit and go chew on fucking pine cones in the forest
>>533441932>Elon talking about UBI means corporate giants want to finance itAll billionaire kikes at WEF claim that they need to be taxed way more by the governments, yet manage to avoid most taxes. They claim one thing but do the other.
>>533440383>Water is privatised; if you're really paranoid you can filter and store water>Electricity can either be privatised, or decentralised and generated at home>Transportation is privatised, plus nobody bans walking or bicycles>Food is privatised>All of the services you just described are privatised.You say this like it means literally anything at all>all of it is monopolized>california is quite literally in a constant drought because their government controls the "privatized water">every big business is effectively the government, because our politicians are swapped every 2-4 years so the ones actually making long term changes are the CEOs of business who have lifelong termsThere is nothing that is truly private and also most of these things are publicly traded on the stock market. >
>>533439929Oh no no no, you will upset the spergs that screech about capitalism with this one.They don't realize their entire lives have been planned and controlled by the government, every decision of worth that they ever make.There's unironically some people that would defund the entire government so that private industries maintain the roads, the pipes and everything else.As if that will go well at all.Just look at any regulator in the US, they let companies get away with literal murder every year, just in slow-motion, whether it is FDA or whoever else.Every fucking regulatory authority is bought and run by the people they "regulate" (collude with).Regulators should be 100% anonymous so they can never be bribed. They should be treated with the highest security to ensure nobody can ever find out who they are. As high as country leaders. Anyone ever spilling the beans, anyone ever caught bribing, lifetime jail sentence, no ifs no buts, PERIOD.But that'd never happen in America, or even most of Europe.Only places like Iceland has the balls to jail types like that.
>>533439929Its an argument they make as the jews need poverty and the fear of it so that they can give their imaginary made up money to vulnerable women and children so that they can sexually abuse them.Its the only reason you dont have UBI because the Jews need your women vulnerable as they are incels at heart.
>>533439929There is a difference between the feeling of a state that controls everything and a state that actually controls everything.We don't currently live in a totalitarian regime. When the lockdown happened, we experienced an oligarchy of the 'experts', a technocracy, and we collectively winced at how oppressive it felt compared to the norm, and totalitarianism is one level above this in terms of control. UBI is a Trojan Horse for Totalitarianism, because the implanted thought of UBI is that it is a supplementation of income, when in reality it is a replacement source for income. This produces a ceiling, not a floor, and it produces a consumer base that is mostly uniform, such that it simplifies and effectively controls pricing, production, and consumption culture across a populous. It is a way to achieve totalitarianism without the errors of communist regimes of the 20th century who directly controlled the means of production and the amount of goods the populous was allowed to have by giving people the illusion of choice. "We're not giving you goods, we're giving you credits, and you spend them how you like, but since the future jobs become more scarce, we're your only source of income, so we control how much you receive which determines how much you consume." It's indirect but it's still there.
>>533439929Very easy answer: They can not at scale, else people would riot and kill them. With the AI surveillance grid and household robots, they can and must. Simply because ROI(AI) > ROI(humans). So as resources get diverted into the closed loop AI economy catering to its owners, the non-owners get marginalized, and as they can not revolt anymore, there is no incentive to give them anything. All social security was a result of threatening the guillotine.
>>533442153It seems there is a power concentration problem.
>>533439929It's actually astonishing how many people, you included, have a warped mindset from growing up in an equilibrium of violence threats. Well, this is ending in the next two decades, and this time, the only people capable of violence are the rulers.
UBI makes no sense. Why give people money? It's more effective for the government to take over the means of production directly and then distribute what is needed out to each person. Why pay anyone when the government can just assign jobs to individuals. This of course has never been tried before so there's no way to know if it works.
>>533443972i mean its far easier to just give people money rather than actually distribute what is needed. that way people can just choose and buy what they need rather than the government having to understand the needs of every single individual. in fact this is basically capitalist logic in a nutshell which is why UBI has always been a libertarian idea.
>>533444088This is the fallacy of UBI and the misconception of what makes the world go. UBI is spoken about as a supplementation of income, but with jobs dwindling it's not a supplementation but a replacement. What does this mean? It means it doesn't become a floor but a ceiling for the majority of people. Why is this a problem? Because it uniforms consumption.The world is built on American over consumption, we consume more than we can reasonably afford not just from an individual level but at a national level, and build more and more debt. What this does is creates a customer no single nation can meet, and it produces a foundation from which all producers in the world sell to, which gives smaller nations like South Korea the ability to produce for an American market and achieve incredibly prosperity in lieu of two enormous historically oppressive spheres around it, China and Japan, who also sell to America.This produces an inverted imperialism as well, because America won't just buy anything, they buy things that appeal to them, so the nations produce things that appeal to Americans, be it tech, clothes, food, entertainment, what have you, which in turn influences them, which is why you have people around the world wearing suits, casually in t-shirts and blue jeans, driving cars, flying planes, eating burgers, watching superhero slop movies and playing pop music. We didn't impose this upon them by force, they do it voluntarily because it's more profitable for them to appeal to the number 1 customer and in the process it affects them.With UBI all that goes away because it controls spending, which means the primary engine of global commerce, American consumerism, goes away. What replaces it? Won't be what we have now, that much is certain.
>>533440178Because if I work and don’t get paid people get hurt, most Americans feel that way. The truth is the fear of being hung on a flag pole is the only thing keeping “the rich” from exerting total power. That, and other slimy rich people undercutting/double-crossing each-other constantly. One will say “I’m making a NEW world order” and the other will say “oh yes perfect I’m in”, while secretly making their own “new world order”. It’s kinda like how terrorists regimes kill eachother they act fundamentally the same.
>>533441660just like every other case of communism, it'll devolve into shortages, rationing, mass starvation, then genocide
>>533445699UBI is the opposite of communism
>>533441129Might be enough to buy a single box of tendies in 2030.
>>533439929It's impossible to understand because it's just made up. UBI specifically gives the government less control over the current welfare systems and puts more power towards free markets when dollars aren't earmarked by the government for specific uses.
>>533439929>everything gets more expensive>everyone is taxed more>only the richest winreally hard to see where it's coming from
>>533439929If you pay taxes and you are not on gibs, state and everyone in your government is your bitchThey know it but they act as if they dont
>>533439929Ubi is a neet and niggers wet dream only because they are retarded
>>533446471LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>533439929Hmmm what should I, a member of the Epstein class, do with this economically useless gaggle of mindless vooters/consoomers?>spend trillions of dollars that could be used on my own degeneracy to give them free money>just kill them
>>533439929> the government wanted to, right now, they could probably shut off your access to the internet Can't threaten me with a good time...
>>533440178> even when people work, their money comes from government fiat and comes electronically. and don't forget many companies rely on government spending or on other companies that entirely rely on government contracts, so all their wages are basically (extra) welfare with extra steps.
>>533444088>i mean its far easier to just give people money rather than actually distribute what is needed.Wow, I never really thought of it like that. So why don't we have the government just give everybody a shitload of money and then we can all be filthy stinking rich?
>>533440028they can kidnap and kill you at any moment and nobody of importance would care enough to even expose it. at least you get something out of this
>>533439929The answer is INFLATION. Everything will be even more inflated. And 2 you balance all idiots with people who can actually work and earn some serious money. Instead of UBI . You need to 1) significantly reduce taxes and let people earn decent living. 2) Make Real Estate taxes $0 on primary residences , country wide.3) We already have partial UBI, since 100 MILLION niggers , browns, boomers and women receive SNAP cards / food stamps. >They are all part of AN UNPRODUCTIVE economy. >with UBI you just increase an unproductive economy and inflation.4) reduce or remove 150 different taxes, becaue you can't just step outside without paying for anything 5) reduce healthcare costs to 1/10
>>533440178Who runs the SNAP Food stamps program now , for 100 million poor, niggers , women and boomers?US gov, who runs cards? JP Morgan bank , in Delaware. >home of Biden btw. JP Morgan already runs 100 mln cards. They will just be richer if they run 400 mln cards. In the mean time, your card can be turned off tomorrow , because you posted on 4chan. >basics essentially.
>>533442649You have to understand that the fate of the poor person nowadays is worse than that of these consequences. Even if it is a ceiling, even if it is a permanent generational class curse, it is survival for these people. They can't stop reproducing and creating more need that requires money to make ends meet. They will sell their comfort to keep hunger away, always, forever.The alternative to UBI is mass depopulation. Which could be great for all if implemented correctly by penalizing reproduction in society. But I doubt we will achieve that. We will see a rupture where the rich no longer need the poor, and the poor can no longer justify their existence
>>533449757>in delawareway to out yourself as a complete retard.
>>533449621you're ignoring the extreme difference in incentive on marginal hours worked between UBI and welfare.
>>533449960>way to out yourself as a complete retard.JP Morgan bank, headquarters: >J.P. Morgan - HeadquartersBank in Newark >500 Stanton Christiana Rd, Newark, DE 19713, United States 2nd large headquarters location , Wilmington DE >JP Morgan Chase is located at 880 Powder Mill Rd in Wilmington, Delaware 19807 https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/business-directory/delaware/wilmington/corporate-office/35365142-jp-morgan-chaseDumb people like you can't be helped.
>>533444088If you give people enough money to live, then what is their motivation to go get a job and produce anything? You have to have forced labor for the system to work. Otherwise the entire slave class of workers disappears overnight. Why bother cleaning up shit, or serving food if you don't have to?
>>533450817no, every major business is incorporated in delaware for tax purposes. That's not their actual headquarters. JP Morgan's global headquarters are in NYC, famously. Chase bank handles their consumer banking activities, they were never in delaware. You can read about the history of JP Morgan & Chase, never in delaware. pic rel is from their latest press release and last year's Q3 filing with the SEC. Note the address of record, and where Delaware is cited. Please either leave the thread, or admit that you have babby-tier understanding of this topic and apologize for giving people shitty information. Also, please thank me for educating you on something fairly basic.
>>533439929UBI is when the globalist hand you an allowance for not executing them on the spot. Demand universal ownership.
>>533450860well a lot of jobs that currently exist do not have to exist. there are a lot of bullshit jobs. its why companies today are laying off so many people and they could probably lay off more. UBI is a politically feasible way to eliminate a lot of bullshit jobs. in a typical 8 hour work day how much of that time is work actually being done? for a lot of people its probably not the majority of it.it is always so bizarre when people say "if there is UBI what will be the incentive to work?" as if a lot of work in the modern BS economy actually matters. if anything UBI would probably save money because you're paying people to not work instead of propping up a lot of pointless jobs that dont have to exist
>>533449621I agree, in Canada we have a retarded party actually talking about taxing the rich as some sort of solution. Fucking idiots think giving the government more money is a solution, No, the solution is a strong middle class. ending monopolies and allowing small businesses to thrive by streamlining regulations.UBI is a joke, because the money has to come from somewhere.
>>533451770What do you do for work now and what will you be doing with your time once AI gives us universal free shit?
>>533439929There is nothing wrong with UBI.But the reality is you are not getting it, your masters won't let you have it. Simple as. Since the industrial revolution, a factory producing a very simple vehicle had ten thousand workers which supported families of 4-8. Today that same factory produces a vehicle a dozen times more complicated and in a fraction of the time, while using maybe a hundred actual workers on the floor who are paid barely over minimum wage that can barely support a family of 4 at destitution level living standards if the wife also doesn't work.What happened to all the excess capital that was produced by such a vast increase in efficiency. Did the workers get it? Obviously not, they don't make 1,000% more per job, did those unemployed from such increasing efficiency get it? Obviously not, they had to find alternative jobs to survive. Did that overwhelming increase in the value of production get cycled into the pockets of the whole nation? No, no UBI has happened yet.The best you have is welfare and unemployment, both stolen directly from 'workers' and not companies profit. And the changes ongoing will not produce a 1,000% increase in efficiency. So where is the expectation that you will get a UBI?The elites have made it clear, you are allowed to become destitute and even starve to death. Any and all profits and efficiencies are going into their pockets, not yours. And that is final.If you don't like it, you have to fight. Since you wont' kill them over this, nothing is going to change. So enjoy starving to death as you can no longer find jobs.Don't argue, the decision was already made.
>>533451770>there are a lot of bullshit jobsYou didn't answer my question. Someone has to clean up shit and piss. This is not a bullshit job. It is required. If UBI exists who will volunteer to clean up the shit and piss?
>>533439929It's the newest lie elite tells us to keep us in line till they replace us with automatons>please tolerate the ass rape bit longer uumm you get to be in heaven>please tolerate the ass rape bit longer uumm we will achieve communism (heaven)>please tolerate the ass rape bit longer you get rich and live how you want when you get older (heaven)>please tolerate the ass rape bit longer everyone will live in the robotic utopia (heaven)Never meant to happen stop being naive.
>>533439929True i agree with you OP.The counterargument would be something like you need to cut dependecy on whatever goverment or country rules over you.So stuff like owning assets in bitcoins or other crypto or assets in multiple countries like houses and double nationality or more in case one tries to fuck you over you just move to another place.Easier said than done.Or you could go the primitiist route and try to live off the grid, the cabin in the forest strat where you grow and hunt your own food and drink water from a nearby stream or river.Or a more modern strat where you live in a van hook up some solarpanels you can even get some kind of internet set up either satelite starlink or mobile.This is easier more than ever i think.
>>533441932UBI as a concept, at least in relatively modern times, goes all the way back to Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson.
>>533439929You are correct. There have been stealth campaigns in multiple states by corporations to get UBI banned as unconstitutional. All our money is already created and selectively injected into the economy by the government so they already exercise this kind of control. Laws mandating your right to some of that money constitute a reduction in government power.
>>533449757>>533449621SNAP is a ~$95B program. It's a rounding error on the budget. And it exists because the private sector can't create enough demand on its own (because of the logic of the profit motive).The government could just as easily create a job guarantee program instead of these various social welfare programs, but it doesn't because the ruling class likes the social effects of unemployment.
>>533451923perhaps it is required sometimes, but it is not required in the majority of instances. its not like the restaurant down the street has to exist for society's functioning. most of the service sector is propped up artificially.
