Genuinely I thought nobody here knew who the fuck this guy was
>>533542503giving people UBI doesnt solve the big problems anon
>>533542583It literally does
muh inflation has allowed these greedy kikes to get away with highway robbery
>>533542503Lurk moar tourist
>>533542802i think we have different problems
>>533542583it does though
>>533542503>nobody here knew who the fuck this guy washow could we forget who that guy was?
>>533542583TND is the way
>>533542926I believe economic solutions are live social problems
>>533542583Oh it doesn't solve the big problems? I didn't even think about those, thanks for pointing that out.Anons, what garbage tier of shill this?
>>533542503If he combined that policy with a total moratorium on immigration and denaturalizing birthright citizens then I would vote for him
>>533542802>>533543018Die jewsThen try to explain how UBI will work when SNAP is a total failure?Bonus points if you respond without kvetching
>>533542503Reminder that the hero contractor at the IRS who revealed that our billionaires pay less than 1.% in tax is still doing hard time in prison.#FreeLittleJohnBezos is paying .1% in taxes atm.
>>533544864SNAP isn't universal; the eligibility requirements filter out anyone who isn't a deadbeat. Do you really believe that if you got an extra check in the mail every month you couldn't find a worthwhile use for it?
>>533544864Retards...It goes down 3 routes:1)You don't need it, and thus it gets reinvested into inflationary ladder raising practices.2)You use it for luxuries, causing inflation.3)You use it to feed yourself and you fall behind and ask for more UBI because you dont work.Die jew
>>533546108>1)You don't need it, and thus it gets reinvested into inflationary ladder raising practices.>2)You use it for luxuries, causing inflation.>3)You use it to feed yourself and you fall behind and ask for more UBI because you dont work.This is equally true for a regular paycheck.
>>533544830>Anons, what garbage tier of shill this?its gonna be a future so bright you wont need eyes
>>533542802>It literally doesIf it worked it would have, at some point in humanity's six thousand years of recorded history>>533544396>TND is the wayBasically. Let them starve.
Your skibidi brain rot argument only holds if you are working and can't pay for food. And we all know that does not happen. Poor people are poor because they are spoiled and it's easy to be poor or they are kept down by the very same artificial incentive and protection policies you are here asking for.Do illegal jeetas get free ubi gibs in your fairytale goy farm?
>>533546898>Poor people are poorPoor people either don't, or can't, contribute anything to society that someone wants to buy. From their 172 IQ engineering to hourly access to their assholes, nobody wants it.
>>533546802>If it worked it would have, at some point in humanity's six thousand years of recorded historyCorporations get UBI (subsidies) every day. Works great for them, which is why they're to lobby so hard them.
>>533546802>If it worked it would have, at some point in humanity's six thousand years of recorded historyOh and I would add that aristocrats/nobles in most of history also received UBI (literally where the term "royalty" is an royalties on a patent, passive income, etc. comes from) and it worked equally well for them.
>>533547290>Corporations get UBI (subsidies) every day.And in return actually do something. Give UBI to American niggers or H1B jeets and all you get is more of them. Your system is doomed on day one by the negative feedback loop. >muh GDPNo. If you look at humans as economic units it costs more to keep them alive than they ever produce during their lifetimes. The have to be fed, housed, watered, and sent to the doctor from time to time. They are sinks for labor and resources, not resources themselves.
>>533547157They can't eat because some jew owns the land, not because they don't have jew coins.(((You))) want the land owner jew to give them the coins just so they can turn around and give them back.Are you retarded or just a kike who needs to die?
>>533542503That man dark, he doing dark things; he against the LORD.
>>533547360>and it worked equally well for them.>>533547290>which is why they're to lobby so hard them.This has always been slavery with extra steps. For most of history humans have been treated as biomass to be harvested to uphold the living standards of the 20%.
>>533542503You’re either a liar or a newfagIn either case you should stfu and lurk or leave nigger
>>533547607>Are you retarded or just a kike who needs to die?>They can't eat because some jew owns the landEverybody eats now in the West, you asshole, because even our semitic, controlled, politicized economy can support literally tens of millions of useless mouths.
>>533547573>And in return actually do something.Let's say the government starting giving you a free $1000 check each month. You wouldn't find a productive use for it? What are you some kind of retard?>Give UBI to American niggers or H1B jeets and all you get is more of them.But anon we're already giving money to them. So really the question of UBI is just whether we're going to give money to productive citizens. We shouldn't have H1B jeets, or any payouts to noncitizens; that's a separate issue. Just because H1B jeets, illegals etc. can call 911 doesn't mean we should abolish emergency services, no?
>>533542828Yep and they still give us maximum inflation anyway
>>533547819Sounds like they don't need UBI or SNAP then
>>533548255>Sounds like they don't need UBI or SNAP thenNo UBI. If you total up what the average worthless nigger gets per year works out to 60,000 dollars a year. They get plenty, they are just bitching about luxury goods. >>533548075>giving you a free $1000 check each monthThat would cover my utilities and property taxes for the year. Cut me out as the middle man and just make all utilities free and abolish land tax.
>>533544864Because snap gives ONLY to niggers and methheadsUbi is objectively better than that since it gives to people who are going to be productive in society as well
>>533547638You mean the Jewish god? Bring it on
The thing I don't understand about the anti UBI crowd is that we already have welfare, basically you're just arguing against productive white people getting the same benefits as welfare recipients.
>>533547360It wouldn't have worked because humans are were divided and controlled under different leaders and were not literate let alone economically literate for 99% of human history. People who killed each other of mild disagreements and died in mass from a simple infection or virus
>>533549082>not literate let alone economically literate for 99% of human history.Anon most people are still neither literate nor economically literate. If they were economically literate they'd support UBI, which is what economically literate people (aristocrats, corporate owners, etc.) do for themselves.> People who killed each other of mild disagreementsAnon people have never killed each other over minor disagreements, at least not to any greater extent then some random thug or crackhead might today. What are you talking about?> died in mass from a simple infection or virusUBI can't work because in the past antibiotics didn't exist?
>>533543210>Andrew YangThe last manifestation of the dot com bubble.
>>533549073>basically you're just arguing against productive white people getting the same benefitsOver-simplified example.I make 100,000 a year, the Feds take 35%I keep 65k and the feds give 35k to three niggers.I have 65k, niggers get 36k (1k a month each) feds have -1k (deficit)Feds give all of us 1k a month tax free. I get 100k from work, 12k UBINiggers get 36k UBI and 36k fedbucks. I get taxed as usual. 35k. Me=77Niggers=24 eachFeds=Negative 48k, each year forever. UBI? yea, no.
>>533549726You understand that UBI implies abolition of most taxes right? The government giving you money and then taxing it right back away is just a pointless shell game.
>>533549726Cool head canon? Those of us arguing for UBI don't want your straw man garbage implementation that is supplemental to welfare and subject to taxes?
>>533546108We literally have machines capable of replacing humans anyways. This is feasible. Billionaires even brag about it in broad daylight
>>533542503This guy had a massive shill campaign on here a while back
>>533549423>Anon people have never killed each other over minor disagreementsthis retarded fucking tourist lmao. people kill each other over nothing you idiot
>>533549899>You understand that UBI implies abolition of most taxes right?Do it without UBI. All those poor fucks pulling down minimum wage will see their day-to-day lives improve instantly. No taxes on income under 100k a year, or whatever. No need to fuck around with checks for everybody, just make every penny under a cap untaxable by the feds, states, or localities. You know, how the US was for the first 127 years of its' existence.
>>533549952I try explaining to people that "UBI is your share of the robot's paycheck." The more robots there are, the fewer jobs there are, but also there are fewer jobs that need a person to do them. So how will you make a living? You make the robot's living. He doesn't need it, he's a robot.Some boomers are just addicted to waging though: https://deathstranding.fandom.com/wiki/MULES_and_Drone_Syndrome
>>533542503>o-okayanon, are you retarded or just a newfag from reddit?
>>533549726it's just another source of liquidity that directly is sourced to the base consumer level, if you're an actual productive member of society it's much easier to start a business if everyone is given 1k a month to spend in the economy
>>533550095Sure but you'll still have perpetual money shortages, which is what constantly happened on the silver and gold standards. Unless you create money for free to parallel the real economy, you'll constantly be stuck in boom/bust cycles. Direct, equal checks to citizens is simply the most expedient and fair way of distributing the new money.
>>533549944>that is supplemental to welfare and subject to taxes?1k a month would be a 80% cut in income and benefits for the average nigger without EBT, Section 8, Welfare, and Social Security. That UBI would have to be 5k a month out the gate, and tax free, to equal what they get now.
>>533542503All he was doing with UBI was buying votes. Yang is a retard
>>533550290Isn't that a good thing? Now you don't want to cut gibs for the gibmedats?
>>533550248>Unless you create money for free to parallel the real economyFucking Nazi. That sounds just like the ReichMark and MEFO bills.Fucking fascist, how dare you even bring your Hitlerite bullshit here. (Laughing)You are almost there, Anon. Almost.
>>533542503only welfare niggers think being bribed with tax dollars is a good thing
>>533550348>All he was doing with UBI was buying votes.You mean people will vote for politicians that actually benefit them? Wait isn't that the idea? Should I be voting for a politician that doesn't benefit me? Why would I do that?Wait until you find out about "lobbyists" and "campaign contributions" anon. But when as soon as a politician offers to do something for regular people he's a "grifter" buying votes.
>>533550372>Isn't that a good thing? Now you don't want to cut gibs for the gibmedats?Just laying out that the "poor" in America have more income, better healthcare, and more free time than the working class. If you fuck around with the system that directly supports 110 million people you better know what you are fucking with.
>>533550462ubi only benefits you if you’re a parasite. people who actually contribute to society don’t want to pay for your ubi. nigger
>>533542503Was this guy just going to do UBI and let the niggers keep the infinite free healthcare, food and housing?Or was he actually serious and going to gut all the entitlements to fund it directly?
>>533550415There's nothing fascistic or Hitlerian about it (although this is /pol/ so I don't know if you're being sarcastic honestly). Could you run the whole US economy on an oz of gold? How about 50oz? Obviously not, there isn't enough. Any metallic or "hard backed" currency has fixed supply and a tether to industrial value. Imagine if aliens beamed away all the gold/silver on earth. Would we just sit around, unable to engage in commerce? Crazy. You have to had a variable supply that can match the real economy. Anything less is a money shortage and anything more is inflation.>>533550558>If you fuck around with the system that directly supports 110 million people you better know what you are fucking with.That's fine, I know what I'm talking about.>>533550561>ubi only benefits you if you’re a parasite. people who actually contribute to society don’t want to pay for your ubi.So all the companies receiving subsidies are parasites? Unless you're making someone else rich, you're a parasite? Your beliefs are exactly inverted from reality.
>>533550873Yang was for a UBI that replaced all other entitlement programs.
>>533550894>Would we just sit around, unable to engage in commerce? Crazy. You have to had a variable supply that can match the real economyWithout attached debt, issued for free, by a state bank. The Reichsmark. MEFO bills allowed the temporary expansion and contraction of the Reich's M3 for overseas trade.It was never a metal-backed currency. There was a reason it worked so well. Your UBI is just debt on debt to print more fedbucks to dump into the consumer economy. Every fedbuck enters existence with a interest debt for the issue. You think things are bad now? Crank the M1 up and watch the disaster.
>>533550894>That's fine, I know what I'm talking about.No, you don't.Your whole position is TedTalk economics. You have, rhetorically, recreated the monetary policy of the Soviet Union. 'Money' isn't even 'Currency', it's a token to be issued at will and given to people for use in the civilian economy.
>>533550561Kike. Half the people in the us have to live like jeets all crammed into favela Soviet niggerblocs because minimum wage is fucking nothing and your taxes go to israel anyways
>>533544468*Solve
>>533542503If everyone is on UBI who will collect the garbage (after you deport immigrants).Who's gonna fix the sewer, who's gonna be a plumber or a McDonalds worker or any shit ?
>>533542503/pol/ remembers. lolz
>>533542802"Universal" means everyone.Everyone idle means no one works.No one plants, fertilizes, harvests, transports, distributes food. No one manufactures, maintains, operates, repairs, fuels machinery.The paycheck system works and self-corrects disturbances. The UBI system ends everything.
What do you guys think about Negative Income Tax (NIT)? Any NITgers here?
>>533552251>If everyone is on UBI who will [work]?Everyone. More than they do now and live worse lives. 320,000,000,000 brand-new US Dollars into the civilian economy EVERY MONTH. >People bitching about inflation and the nation debtHoo Boy! (You) ain't seen nothing yet.
>>533552479>What do you guys think about Negative Income Tax (NIT)? Any NITgers here?Too much hassle and bullshit.US Tax Form 1040A?Make it the Form 100,400AThe first 100,400 dollars you earn from any source becomes untaxable by any authority.Done. Problem solved.
>>533550937If that's true he'd be the most pro-White candidate in living memory
>>533553417>If that's trueIt wasn't. He never reconciled UBI with the Social Security system and how medical insurance would work. He was buying votes with the promise of White money for endless oceans of niggers.
>>533542503I'll never stop shitposting about him and UBI
>>533553753Based, at least for UBI.
>>533553753FTFY
>>533542503Nobody is talking about that faggot whipped cream sucker, kek.
>>533548921Dumbass, productive people don't need UBI, they're already productive. UBI is for niggers, full stop.Instead of UBI for everyone how about we just cut off benefits for useless people and redistribute that money to people who are productive?
>>533547290And were do those subsidies come from anon?That's right, exploiting labor through taxes.>the thief steals therefore everyone should be a thiefThis is how you get africa.The correct answer is to shoot the thief.If only you lefties all behaved like luigi, you'd actually be heroes.
>>533554217You aren't reading my posts. Money for UBI is printed into existence, not taxed. I even posted that:>You understand that UBI implies abolition of most taxes right? The government giving you money and then taxing it right back away is just a pointless shell game. >>533549899
>>533505152
>>533549899That already exists. It's called becoming a mennonite.You trust the government to implement ubi and not use it to try and make the wealth gap infinity. >I hate billionaires which is why I am trusting them to help meThis is your actual premise. It's fucking retarded.
>>533554215>how about we just cut off benefits for useless people and redistribute that money to people who are productive?You can have infinite niggers or you can have a spacefaring civilization. You can't afford both. As long as niggers vote they will vote for nigger things. Simple as.
>>533554348And you aren't reading mine; if you could create just be printing money, why even use money in the first place? Why not just will resources into existence? Oh you can't? That's because you can't create something from nothing.I tire of this exchange so I will just finish; you will now claim that you can imagine a story or something and that is the same as creating, I will respond that you do not understand the difference between the material and immaterial, and then you will 1) use some gnostic style cope to try to vaguepost your way out or 2) aggressively misrepresent me and try to derail the conversation into nonsensical gossip.UBI is the final conclusion of delusional oversocialization and the belief that stylizing currency as valid is the same as it being valid. The 8 billion other people on earth will not put up with you trying to dilute the value of all labor on the planet in an extreme display of first world colonialist entitlement.
>black people exist so I'll work my ass off to make sure we ALL suffer
>>533554365>It's called becoming a mennonite.Wow you've cracked the code everyone just needs to be a Mennonite.>You trust the government to implement ubiThe government ALREADY DOES THIS, but just for politicians and their friends. UBI is just expanding what ALREADY IN EFFECT to the regular citizenry. The present situation is mega-UBI for the fatcats, taxes for everyone else. And people like you think that my proposal, flat UBI for everyone and basically no taxation is some how an increase in government power. You've been completely brainwashed with economic buzzwords.>>I hate billionaires which is why I am trusting them to help meNo they're the ones footing the bill. Since the general population is getting massive influxes of new money relative to them, UBI is a huge wealth transfer (though one which doesn't use taxes) from billionaires to everyone else.Also, consider your what you've just tacitly admitted:>Billionaires will never implement thisReally? Why would billionaires be opposed to something that will, according to you, expand their power and transfer wealth from me to them? Because it does the opposite of that, at at some level you've subconsciously acknowledged this already.
>>533554354Life requires labor. Full Stop.If you don't do it someone has to do it for you. "Money" is how we keep score of labor exchange. Once you figure that out everything else falls into place.
>>533553576Figures. We'll totally collapse before we let those systems go.
>>533554598>Why not just will resources into existence? Oh you can't?The problem isn't a shortage of resources it's a shortage of money. Every industry on earth is desperate to sell whatever commodity they're in the business of producing but nobody has the cash to buy. Think of the economy as a train. It can seat so many people at a time. That's the physical reality; you can't will more into existence. But not everybody can get a seat on the currently-existing train. What's the solution? Create the missing tickets from nothing. Somehow, people like you believe that the train company has to tax away someone else's ticket, or borrow tickets from a bank.Of course if you want a bigger economy (more trains, seats) you have to physically build them. Nothing changes that. But you still have to have the correct number of tickets in existence. This is what I mean by the "money supply corresponding to the real economy".
>>533554720>Life requires labor. Full Stop.But money is needed to represent produced commodities, or you cannot transact on a large scale. If you lack enough money, the commodities sit unused because nobody can buy. UBI/social credit is just creating the missing money and injecting into the economy.
>>533554679>they just do it for politicians and their friendsAnd if you give them a larger mandate they'll just do for only their friends even more. I explicitly said that. Ironic that you accuse others of not reading. Of course, you consider anyone not blindly agreeing with you as 'not reading' so your definition is warped.Billionaires will never willingly give up thier power. Ever. You need to accept that.>billionaires will never implement thisI literally did not say this. I said they will pretendvto implement it and make sure all the wealth ends up in their pockets while everyone else is a peasant. Using a strawman argument is an admission you have no response to my actual argument. You debate against figments of your imagination, proving that you have no delineation between that and reality.
>>533554623Exactly.>But but but poor broke losers will take advantageYeah let's demolish ambulances, the fire department, sidewalks and (libertarians rejoice) roads because we wouldn't want lazy people using those either.
>>533554881>it isn't about resources>there are only so many seats on the trainYou are actually retarded.Go ahead and implement it. It will be fun watching it fail as hard as that orange niggers tariffs.
>>533554215Why would you want charity if you're productive
>>533554978>Billionaires will never willingly give up thier power. Ever. You need to accept that.Lol who cares about willingly? I'm simply arguing which policy is correct. They said the same thing about George III look how that turned out. Are you even American? "The there's nothing you can do against the billionaires just wage for them ok?" cucked beyond belief.
>>533554941>But money is needed to represent produced commoditiesHow can you be so fucking wrong and still use a computer? Money doesn't "represent" commodities. Even the Marxists understood "Money" is and of itself is a commodity. "Currency" is used as a method of abstraction to facilitate trade. Nothing represents a commodity, because a commodity is something physical that exists.
>>533555060>if you think thieves are bad you should just tear down the storeThat is actually what will happen. So many people who contribute nothing will abuse those services until they will cease to be effective.
>>533555247>Money doesn't "represent" commodities. Even the Marxists understood "Money" is and of itself is a commodity.No, although this is a common misunderstanding. Did it ever occur to you that the Marxists, being wrong about so much, were also wrong about that? Our money is not a commodity, it's a measure, just like an inch or a liter is a measure. Money (whether in say cash like bills or coins, or ledger records like bank money) is just a tool to keep those records, the same way a ruler is a tool to measure length or a cup to measure volume.
>>533555149>I say lefties need to go full luigi>advocate for mennonites>durr you are saying we have to wageslaveYou cannot have a conversation without misrepresenting the person you are talking to. This is why you have no friends.
>>533555315You realize that most UBI proposals, including those discussed ITT and those by Yang will give the deadbeats *less* then they're currently receiving just for being deadbeats right?
>>533555472>You cannot have a conversation without misrepresenting the person you are talking to. This is why you have no friends.I see you've reached the insults and ad hominem phase. Not an argument.
>>533555487>people need money to buy things>no wait actually we are going to exclude peopleStop contradicting yourself.
>>533554792>We'll totally collapse before we let those systems go.Yep.Not a bad thing though. I've been through one civil war in my life and it was pretty cool when it was over.All debts wiped clean, 20% of the population kicked out of the country by stern warnings and gunfire, everyone on the losing side had to GTFO.
>>533555535You claimed I said something I did not say. That is misrepresenting me and an act of dehumanization.
>>533555549There's no contradiction. Many "welfare queens" etc. are currently raking in far more than what would be fair/economically correct under UBI. The U in UBI means universal. Nobody is excluded. We're moving from a special interest system to a common interest system.>>533555674>You're mean words hurt my feelings! You're not allowed to paraphrase people!What's next, did I blood libel you too? Back to plebbit.
>>533542503Thankfully the demonrats are too stupid and greedy to make him the presidential candidate.
>>533555852This is me saying the solution is to kill billionaires.You claimed I said we should all wage slave for them.You are dishonest. You regularly put words in people's mouths like this and they hate you for it.
>>533555421>NoYes, you stupid fuck. Right there in Das Kapital.> this is a common misunderstandingIt is purposely misunderstood by modern economists and free-money MMT visionaries who don't understand why people have to work and things have price-tags. >Our money is not a commodity"Money" is defined as a commodity useable in trade.>it's a measureThat's fiat currency you are talking about. >is just a tool to keep those recordsThat isn't even currency, it's accounting. Records of currency that doesn't exist. If you think all of these things are the same you have mis-understood the very reality of economics.M x V = P x QSee, easy. There it is.
>>533555852The contradiction is you saying that the problem is people can't buy things and are excluded from the market and then saying we should exclude people from the markets. The billionaires will define everyone they aren't related to as a deadbeat and give themselves all the wealth.
>>533542503yang gang!!
>>533542503>I thought people didn't know who Andrew Yang wasGod I hate newfags
>>533555981>"Money" is defined as a commodity useable in trade.This isn't "the" definition it's "a" definition. Different cultures had completely different notions of what money was. Did the nature of "herd immunity" change when the dictionary companies change it during COVID? In fact this definition is the point contention of our argument. You're begging the question, not proving anything.>That's fiat currency you are talking about. Same.>That isn't even currency, it's accounting. Records of currency that doesn't exist.In our civilization, those accounting records *are* the currency. Only about 3% of our money supply exists as cash. According to you, the rest doesn't exist at all? But obviously this cannot be true, since it actually performs as money in real transactions. It IS money.> M x V = P x QThis isn't a reality, it's a model, no different than the Bohr model of the atom or the quantum model of the atom. It's an attempt to understand part of reality quantitatively, not reality itself. I'm disputing the very definition of currency. Why would you quote a derivation of the definition I'm disputing and suppose that's valuable?
>>533547290>The corporate system steals from us and it works for them lmao, UBI fags are probably the best example I've ever seen of people too stupid to argue with. Genuinely like trying to explain to someone you can get free energy from pic related and them not understanding why it wouldn't work
>>533556111>people can't buy things and are excluded from the marketYep. No Porsches for the poor.>and then saying we should exclude people from the marketsThe market excludes them by existing in a state of voluntary exchange.Want a Porsche? Pay me. >and give themselves all the wealth.That is why we create governments to protect our personal liberty. Otherwise we have to kill each other instead of filling out forms and voting.
>>533554881>shortage of moneyIt's the other way. The problem with the USA is that it has printed too much money. The government budget is now 40 trillion dollars with interest payments at 1 trillion every year. With UBI, assuming the budget is not cut in other ways, would cost at least 2.5 trillion a year, ultimately to corporations that supply your everyday needs. The 1% gets richer. Ultimately with so much money in the bank, they would either buy up more assets, or extract interest from T Bills. The bank itself would trade most of their dollats abroad in the petrodollar trade. That's where inflation starts. The money supply increasing volatility of commodities trading, and the need to cover interest payments.
>>533556326Money is just a tool to make bartering more efficient. Say you want to buy a screwdriver and the owner wants a pig. You don't have a pig. So now you are wandering all over town trying to trade for a pig. You spend all day trying to buy a screwdriver and fail to do so.It's only there as a common exchange. If you undermine it by printing to much you go straight back to the bartering stone age and inability to distribute goods halts the economy.Since most people trade labor for money, people like you who want to print it and kikes inflating the speculation market through derivatives are literally sucking the lifeforce out of everyone around you. The correct response is to just remove everyone who undermines the exchange.That means both you and the billionaires.
>>533542503He was/is sellout.
>>533556506>It's the other way. The problem with the USA is that it has printed too much money. The government budget is now 40 trillion dollars with interest payments at 1 trillion every year.It sounds like you still believe in financial intermediation theory. Look up Richard Werner and credit creation. Money (currently) is created from nothing when loans are extended. This means the money supply is equal to the principal on all the debt. But that debt has to be paid with interest. This means that no matter how much you print, you're always in a perpetual shortage. An important component of UBI/social credit is that the treasury retakes power to issue currency back from the banks (and contrary to what Marx wanted with a central bank) and creates the necessary money debt-free.>Money is just a tool to make bartering more efficient. This is also a myth, put forward by Smith. There is no evidence any culture started with "primitive barter". Debt instruments actually were invented first. Think about it: I need shoes but you need bread. You want need shoes again for months, but need bread every day? How can we use barter in such a situation? You can't; you use IOUs.
>>533556494>another aggressive misrepresentationThis is you saying the problem is people are excluded from the currency market.>>533555487This is you completely doing a 180 and claiming they should be excluded.I pointed out that this contradiction will be used by the elite to define everyone as a peasant.This is the reason obamacare did nothing but make health insurers rich. By defining wealth as money you have ensured the people who currently have money will leverage it into having all the wealth.
>>533556326>Different cultures had completely different notions of what money wasGold coins, seashells, slaves, cows, date palm seeds. All commodities, all money. >In fact this definition is the point contention of our argument.Yes. You can print dollars forever, and hand them out however you like. "Money" has to physically exist and is a direct result of human labor. Even seashells have to be found and carried to market. >Only about 3% of our money supply exists as cashProved my point. It isn't even currency. This is the fatal flaw of Modern Monetary Theory. >This isn't a reality, it's a modelIt is a simple equation that predicts what will happen when you alter any one of the four variables. UBI will radically alter that equation, and you can easily calculate what will happen.>I'm disputing the very definition of currencyBecause you can't see that difference due to ignorance or education.
>>533556708Where in my post did I say money was a modern invention?I'll wait.
>>533556586Yeah, he shows his colors in this interview with Shapiro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42OsTANhnbs. Tries to shill waging as dignified, actually thinks that UBI is a great way to get people wage more. Meanwhile Shapiro can't shut up about Agenda 21 (though not by name) and how great it will be to get people out of the country and into cities where they can own nothing and eat ze bugs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42OsTANhnbs Really a good mask-off interview.
>>533556760>This is you completely doing a 180 and claiming they should be excluded.Who am I excluding? In that analogy I'm talking about how to maximize inclusion.>By defining wealth as money you have ensured the people who currently have money will leverage it into having all the wealth.I'm explicitly not defining wealth as money. Wealth is real stuff. Money is just a record keeping system.
>>533556817>Where in my post did I say money was a modern invention?You didn't, nor did I say that you did.
>>533542503If there is anyone you can trust with numbers, it's an asian guy.
>>533556910You saying wealth is tied to cash to purchase it is equating them.Gold is not created by people having money to buy it, it is dug out of the ground. Using one sentence replies to quotes out of context or misrepresenting people is not brevity or wit btw. That is you engaging in style over substance.
>>533556760>This is you saying the problem is people are excluded from the currency market.They have nothing of value to trade. They are not 'excluded', they are unfit to take part.-Huge Difference-Sucks for them. If the useless are going to eat someone has to feed them. Not through Programs or Welfare or EBT, but some farmer somewhere is going to have to grow food and give it to people who have nothing to give in return. That is the reality of the situation.
>>533557098This is you saying that. This is called a strawman argument: I argued that money only exists to avoid the inefficiency of bartering.You seem to think that misrepresenting people followed by confident assertions is valid discourse. This is why I called you a dishonest faggot; no one will tolerate being lied abput like this.
>>533542503I feel he is planning on running in 2028 and his campaign team is gonna start in 4chan for some reason
>>533557098>You saying wealth is tied to cash to purchase it is equating them.Saying two things are related is equating them? Nonsense, or counterparty risk couldn't exist. Money is a *representation*, a *measure* of some real thing. That's all. Again, I use the analogy of a train ticket and an actual seat on a train. The seat on the train, even the right to sit on it for some duration for a trip, is real. The ticket is just a record. But the ticket is clearly not the thing. You are conflating a measure and the thing measured. A liter is not a quantity. A liter *of some actual liquid* is a quantity. The liter exists, as a concept, separately from what its measuring in a given real case.
>>533556708Unless the government simply refuses to honor their T bills already issued, there in no way you can avoid interest payments in the next 20 years at least. Even with zero interest rates over the last 3 decades, Japan still faces inflation. That's because money has already been created placed in the hands of financial speculators, and they will forever be bidding up assets. You want UBI to work? Declare usury illegal, create time limits to currency, and ban derivative and non physical trading contracts
>>533557157And if the government decides who the useless are, their donors will entice them to define it as everyone but the elites. This will starve the entire workforce and society will collapse.People whose net worth is entirely dependent on derivatives will not have the foresight to see this outcome.
>voting for a literal Chinese spyAre anglo-americans this stupid?
>>533557250Debt based money exists to enslave people with usury.
>>533557354Saying they are a direct exchange rather than an indirect exchange is equating them, yes.And a liter is a quantity defined as 1000 cubic centimeters. A 5 liter chamber doesn't become dimensionless because there is nothing in it.
>>533557460That's literally what I have been telling that faggot, he thinks he can create value by printing money.
>>533557250You're still wrong, because you aren't reading carefully. You can have debt-for-barter before and without the existence of money, and this is what anthropology, archeology, etc. shows actually occurred. The monetization of IOUs, etc. as abstract, circulatable instruments (money) came later. If I sell you shoes in exchange for a an IOU for bread today, is that IOU automatically money? Of course not, it's not fungible, you can't pay taxes with it, its not universally recognized (even in a local culture or community) etc. etc.
>>533557484>Saying they are a direct exchange rather than an indirect exchange is equating them, yes.If two things were the same there would be no need to exchange them! "Give me $1 for $1 right now", said nobody ever. Exchanges happen because things are not the same!
>>533542503>>533557425>Might be a Chinese spy>Instead votes for Israeli spys and mossad agents as well as goys in the pockets of Israel Really makes you think
>>533557390>This will starve the entire workforce and society will collapse.Which is, if you are paying attention, proof we don't live in a free society or a market economy. War is Politics by other means.Politics is Economics by other means.
>>533557388>You want UBI to work? Declare usury illegal, create time limits to currency, and ban derivative and non physical trading contractsTime limits to currency is despotic because it destroys people's ability to save. Usury illegal? Absolutely. After than you just need debt-free (usury free) currency.>Unless the government simply refuses to honor their T bills already issued, there in no way you can avoid interest payments in the next 20 years at least.It is impossible (not merely implausible) to pay off the national debt. Currency in exists is always less than principal+interest. Just default and get it over with.
>>533557529No you can't. Everyone who accepts ious ends up with no goods and only ious. Eventually, the farmer will demand actual goods in exchange for his produce rather than nonfungible ious, so the whole town doesn't loot his farm while snickering to themselves. That is why money has to exist as a medium of exchange that everyone uses.
>>533557719No, I just honor the IOU and pay out the bread for the agreed upon duration. Again, the existence of the counterparty risk is proof of the non-equivalence of the money and the real thing.
>>533557636I never said we did. I said that if leftists were serious they'd kill the speculative billionaires.
>>533557783And what if the other person doesn't honor the iou dumbass. What if the whole town doesn't and just takes your harvest. What if every farm fails because of this behavior.
>>533557051>trust the triad guy blackmailed by jews to promote jew invented communismdude nobut to be fair it is indeed all fake and gay so whatever, go for it
>>533557861>And what if the other person doesn't honor the iou dumbassCan you really not understand this? This is the essence of all loan, even loans with no interest or usury whatsoever. Borrowing entails risk.
>>533557811>if leftists were serious they'd kill the speculative billionaires.They would re-adopt the tax structure of 1920 and call it a day. Throw in a transaction tax for the finance bros and outlaw usury for laughs and the country would be fixed.Simple as.
>>533557948I'm gonna need some collateral
>>533557653>debt free currencyNow I get it, you want the Zimbabwe route. Just print trillions people can use it. Except it's still not debt free, the government technically has a debt to it's citizens for UBI payments. The money will then enter the banking system, and banks still have to loan them out somewhere; since the government no longer sells T bills, they have to make riskier gambles to pay back depositors. If you time limit the currency, it prevents banks from accumulating too much capital, it can also wipe off any individual debts at the time, and people can still hold assets as savings.
>>533558090Seems fair. Of course the collateral has to be something that really exists. In this situation we can probably use the shoes themselves. They'll likely depreciate over the course of the loan, but that value will be offset by the bread delivered to date. If a default happens quickly, not much value would be lost. If it happens later, lots of bread will necessarily be delivered up to that point.
>>533558229>defaults>breaks your legs>over a pair on sneakers >sad violin music
>>533558221Not at all, but you're still stuck (no offense, this is a poorly understood topic in general) on financial intermediation vs. fractional reserve vs. credit creation theories of banking. Banks do not lend out deposits. Again look up Richard Werner.
>>533557948I literally said the farmer would refuse the risk of the ious and refuse to loan out the food. And then you insisted he would accept them. Then I said the whole town would just steal his food. And now here you are agreeing with me that the farmer would not take on the risk. You literally have no stable concept of the material and immaterial, as I said in my second response to you all the way back at the top of the thread.>>533558039>we'll just force the billionaires to pay 1920's taxesThat will work out as well as giving everyone health insurance and then promising to make sure the insurers paid out. What actually happened? The insurers avoided paying out using every method they could think of while charging medicaid and medicare as much as they could. The only way out of this is the speculators dead or in a cage. That should have happened in 2008 but it didn't.
It’s 2026. If you aren’t getting tismbux, you have failed at life.
>>533558320They don't lend out deposits unless you cut them out of the federal reserve system and stop issuing T Bills as you're proposing with your UBI plan
>>533558416You have no coherence. Do you really not understand that all borrowing entails risk? You can dream up whatever trolley problem scenario you want. Maybe the farmer takes the risk. Maybe in another example he doesn't. But borrowing entails risk, that is simply the nature of borrowing/lending.
>>533558500Ah, now I understand what you're saying. Sure, as a financial intermediary they could lend in that case. But the demand for their loans would be greatly reduced by the influx of debt-free UBI money directly to the citizenry. This would have a force the interest rates they could charge to extremely low levels. Technically they wouldn't even be "banks", since they could no longer violate client money rules.
>>533542503>gook no one has heard of becomes popular overnight>no prior electoral history >running for President >given coverage and legitimacy by the press >obvious inorganic rise>people fall for him, Fuentes included He’s an agent of the financial wing of global kikery
>>533558416>The only way out of this is the speculators dead or in a cage"Dead". Just stop bailing them out. Let them make one more stupid play and go broke.Self-Cleaning Oven.>That should have happened in 2008 but it didn't.Should have let them all lay down and die then and eat the losses. The flip side of the argument is finance and speculation don't create anything, so deserve no protections at all.
>>533558536>I'll just repeat myself and ognore what he saidI said in a nonmonetary system with no enforcement the farmer is always taking the risk when he trades goods for an iou. I have never claimed anything else in this entire thread. You claiming otherwise is a strawman argument.
>>533558698>just refuse to bail them outWill never happen. They can just promise politicians a portion of the bailout. They have to be dead and they created the reality where that is the only solution.
>>533558732>I said in a nonmonetary system with no enforcement the farmer is always taking the risk when he trades goods for an iou.Risk still exists in a monetized economy with enforcement anon.
>>533558821In a monetized economy you can lock someone out of the debt market by virtue of everyone else using currency.In an iou economy your only recourse is to beat the thief to death in the street to add weight to the ious. Which eventually leads to the ious becoming based on currency so that doesn't happen.
>>533558961>In a monetized economy you can lock someone out of the debt market by virtue of everyone else using currency.So your solution is goyscores or PRC style social credit scores.>In an iou economy your only recourse is to beat the thief to death in the street to add weight to the ious. Which eventually leads to the ious becoming based on currency so that doesn't happen.Your real colors are really showing showing. In a real community, people are shamed and shunned. Do you think I'm going to loan my neighbor money when I know he stiffed my other neighbor? It sounds like you can't imagine any kind of homogeneous or high trust community, and so you naturally conclude that extreme violence is the only way to enforce contracts.
>>533558961>In an iou economy your only recourse is to beat the thief to death in the street to add weight to the ious.History of The National GrangeYou can make the argument that modern monetary policy was specifically to make the world safe for thieves.
UBI would be amazingly efficient as a blanket replacement to all welfare BUT you actually have to be willing to let the retards that squander it starve. No additional emergency payments, no supplementary programs like food stamps, rent assistance, nothing. This is also why it’ll never happen.
>>533559093>that extreme violence is the only way to enforce contracts.Back in the day if you stiffed your neighbor you would find that the town store wouldn't take your money and the local agent wouldn't buy your crop. Local economics, local control.
>>533559093>The farmer tells everyone he is untrustworthy and no one lends to himApparently, you think people are entitled to credit. Jews think they are entitled to usury free credit.>your true colors are showingThe human brain can only handle intimate connections with 4 to 520 individuals. When it gets larger than that you start to see sectarian violence unless systems are in place. Also>if you say arson is bad you are secretly an arsonistIs a really weak argument.
>>533559306Yeah. And it works the other direction too. Actually communities and neighbors help each other, so you have fewer people actually needing to take loans to begin with. If if they do, they're usually on better terms.
>>533559292>have to be willing to let the retards that squander it starveAnd accept the fact that if it's UBI for everyone, regardless of age, the number of nigger children would explode, year on year, until the nation collapsed.
>>533559392Shaming and shunning doesn't work on an out of control thief. He will just skip the iou step and start taking without permission. You will gather people to stop him, and then he will gather all the thieves to fight back. Then you have a microcosm of a larger civil conflict. And after you get done killing all the thieves, you'll see the 8 year old boy that got caught in the crossfire and say "this is stupid, we need systems to stop this from getting out of control again".I too wish the world was a hippie drum circle. But it isn't; it's a nasty place where everything is killing, eating and fucking each other.
>>533559340>Apparently, you think people are entitled to credit.Actually, this is the entire basis of the social credit system C.H. Douglas worked out. It's obvious you've never heard of him though. As a part of a prosperous culture, there is a certain quantity of monetizable, debt free credit that naturally exists as a consequence of that culture's natural productivity. >Jews think they are entitled to usury free credit.That isn't the issue (the only good loan must be a usury-free one!), the issue is they think it's good to charge usury to others. >The human brain can only handle intimate connections with 4 to 520 individuals. When it gets larger than that you start to see sectarian violence unless systems are in place.I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm borrowing from 4 to 520 people at once.>if you say arson is bad you are secretly an arsonistWhatever happened to it being wrong to paraphrase people? It's ok, I knew you were a hypocrite the moment I realized that the notion of a high trust community was alien to you. That's not a paraphrasing of anything I've said though.
>>533559437>And accept the fact that if it's UBI for everyone, regardless of age, the number of nigger children would explode, year on year, until the nation collapsed.Already happening without UBI, including in their own countries where even current US style welfare doesn't exist. There's neither correlation nor causation here.
UBI doesn't make sense economically, if the gov runs a deficit your countries dollar will collapseIf the gov runs a surplus, it's a wealth tax that eventually will run outThe only UBI that makes sense is switching some percentage of taxes to a direct cash payment to everyone
>>533559551Wow great point anon. Before global panopticon surveillance systems, high trust societies had no way of dealing with bandits.
>>533559604>UBI doesn't make sense economically, if the gov runs a deficit your countries dollar will collapseMoney is debt free so you never run a deficit. The whole point is that the real money supply is tethered to the real economy.
>>533559560>I'll keep that in mind when I am borrowing from 4-520 peopke at onceI was talking about the size of the society.This is what I mean; you are saying everything should be a nice high trust society but you are willing to mistepresent other people (read: undermine trust) to try to win a fucking internet argument. There is no universe where you can be trusted as even a minute custodian of such a society.
>>533559560>>Jews think they are entitled to usury free credit.And get it.Interest rates and fees are for the goys, not the Chosen.
>>533559778Which is why they need to be removed.
>>533559778This is something for all cultures to emulate. Catholic monastic orders did the same thing for many years before the "exception of St. Ambrose" gained credibility. Or are you suggesting that only usurious loans are appropriate?
>>533559687>money is debt freeits not even if you take an MMT view, printing money above what the economy can absorb creates a debt you pay in the form of higher import costs. If a country suddenly gave everyone a living wage through money printing, other counties wouldn't value their dollar very highly. Increasing the money supply should only be down to prevent deflation and currency hoarding, any other reason makes no sense economicallyUBI is just about redistribution since no actual value (goods) can be created by the gov, printing money for redistribution is retarded. May as well just allocate say 50% of all tax revenue to a flat redistributive payment instead
>>533559687>The whole point is that the real money supply is tethered to the real economy.This is the fuck-up at the theoretical heart of UBI. The idea that dumping all this cash into the economy at the retail level will spur production and services to take advantage of all of this new spending power. Cash will cause the economy to grow, therefore no inflation. >Javarious gets his UBI>Javarious wants a new car>Buys a Mercedes >2000$ a month gone to Germany and Mercedes in-house lender. Repeat ad nauseum with everything. Unless Trump is setting the stage where niggers can blow their Ubbies in America on American and the cash stays in-country that UBI will flow over the boarder faster than you can count it.
>>533559956>I am entitled to everyone loaning me whatever I want>backs this up with an either/or fallacy>spends the entire thread putting words in other people's mouths and lyingYou'd violate any agreement anyone made with you and then giggle with feminized passive aggression when they called you out on it.I don't think you can function in any social system unless you are completely anonymous. That is why you are here. And only here.
>>533545261Actually it just filters out men now, especially white men. You could be a disabled homeless white vet on the street, but if you're under 65, no SNAP for you anymore.
>>533560161>This is the fuck-up at the theoretical heart of UBI. The idea that dumping all this cash into the economy at the retail level will spur production and services to take advantage of all of this new spending power.That's not what's happening though. What you're describing is just vanilla Keynesian economics. Man, net, (at least in the west) is always producing more, improving efficiency of machines, processes, etc. This creates wealth. You're just creating the money to match. You aren't "priming the pump", you're following it.>Javarious gets his UBI>Javarious wants a new car>Buys a Mercedes >2000$ a month gone to Germany and Mercedes in-house lender. Where's Germany going to spend the USD anon? Back in the US. Also, Javarious can do this anyway. If you want more money to stay in the country, the right tool is an import tariff, not delegating your currency to private banks.
>>533560161I told him that real goods and cash aren't the same thing and that printing money doesn't make goods magically appear. This entire thread is him trying to weasel around that.I am convinced he is a sociopath that wants to engineer gibs for himself while he contributes nothing. I even asked him why he doesn't just go join the mennonites. I think it's because he's a lazy dishonest piece of shit and they'd kick him out after he spewed some commie bullshit about a natural level of debt existing which is why they should take care of him while he did nothing.Voltaire rightfully tore apart 'on the social contract' which he cited here.
>>533560318>Where's Germany going to spend the USD anon? Back in the US.Ah, no. They have their own country, corporations, factories, workers, physical plant, and power stations. Not to mention EU and German taxes. Entropy and Attrition effect money just like everything else. Being the retail buyer means your money is being used to cover every aspect of the thing you just bought.
>>533554469Space is fake and gay. At least the Negress is being honest.
>>533560345>I am convinced he is a sociopath that wants to engineer gibs for himself(Laughing)Everyone wants to be a Commissar, nobody wants to work in the coal mines. That reminds me of the Soviet experience when the commies actually had to deal with the ruble and monetary policy. Socialist Economics were a thing, but every gold seam in the Union had a Gulag built on top of it and the commies mined that gold every day of the history of the USSR.
>>533542503There the scientists that nobody knows where they at, some type of creature involved in that.
>>533560655He keeps talking about a 'high trust society' but he does nothing but make strawman arguments. How am I supposed to take someone saying they want a high trust society seriously when they are willing to undermine trust to win an internet debate?
