>>533557672
UBI is a pipe dream and will never happen in America as politicians on both sides of the political aisle will decry it as Communism because their tech bro financiers all insist it's better to let the useless eaters in the long term.

>>533557672
>Let's say that the debate is over

It's not, you useless commie eaters will be culled.

>>533557742
>>533557769
>But I did eat breakfast this morning
Really stretch your minds for this one. The hypothetical is that we've settled the debate about whether we should implement this policy and have now moved on to HOW to implement it.

>>533557843
No, I'm not playing your commie fetish bullshit. You will be killed long before you are paid for being worthless.

>>533557903
Fine, if you refuse to engage with this particular hypothetical but insist on remaining in the thread anyway, maybe you can add to it by explaining why you think UBI would be practical or not.

>>533558046
It's not practical because we don't need more useless people.

>>533557843
Logistically it'd be impossible to implement as whatever amount is decided upon to keep the proles alive through UBI will trigger corporations to collude amongst themselves to charge just a little more than that to continue to starve out those who can no longer increase their bottom line and have been rendered economically unviable by AI anyway

>>533558097
Well we don't NEED a lot of things (like your replies, but I'm trying to make it work). Why is it practical or impractical to pay these "useless" people, along with the useful people, if any?

>>533557672
How'd they fuck up the pronunciation of income? Holy shit.

>>533558228
>"Practical" describes things or people focused on action, utility, and real-world application rather than theory. Originating in the 15th century from Greek praktikos ("fit for action"), it refers to being sensible, functional, and efficient. Key traits include being realistic, organized, and solution-oriented.

Supporting useless people is the opposite of the word "practical." Common sense and an elementary grasp of the English language, two things you don't seem to possess, should have told you that without having to make a retarded thread.

This has been an obnoxious thread so far. Maybe I need to dumb it down a bit.

Pretend that you're a congressman and that you and the rest of Congress need to decide on the details of some new law, regardless of whether or not you want to pass it.
One of your fellow congressman has proposed that $1000 payments be made monthly to every person living in America. How do you respond to this? Do you agree, or do you want to make the payment higher/lower, or what?

>>533558752
>How do you respond to this?
Tell the other congressmen the same thing I've been telling you this entire thread. That they/you are dumb as shit for even suggesting it.

>>533558914
>We've moved on from that, grandpa. Your failing memory is going to cost you next election. Now do you have anything to add to the current discussion, or are we just going with my proposal?

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>>533557672
I'm not relying on the epstein class for this. Set overtime at 20hrs a week and make h1b illegal past 1%of the companies workforce, contractors included. Legalize slavery for large corporations on the condition that the slaves be nonwhite and castrated. Interst rates capped at 5% for every loan.

>>533559077
>we've moved on from reality
Of course you have, you're a thieving nigger commie. You wouldn't know reality if it starved you to death.

>>533557672
>UBI
>government
Completely dismantle the central banking system, i.e debt based currency, as it currently is.
This is the economic theory where "UBI" came from:
https://en.trm.creationmonetaire.info/
It explicitly states the current system is enslavement through missing interest and a ponzi scheme were the ones who came into the economy earlier (older generations) benefit at the expense of the younger generation.
Implement UBI at a time bank, or operate it at scale of a local community and try growing from there and connecting with other communities.
Conversion rates between "UBI currencies" is trivial because the point is that every unit of currency is a representation of time (1 day = 1 day).

>>533557843
We can use unicorn magic to prevent the inflation and fairy magic to keep people employed, and elf magic to keep the businesses you're taxing to do this afloat. Hypothetically speaking that's probably our best bet.

>>533559170
That's for another thread. This thread is about UBI, not any other policies. What would you do about that?

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>>533558445
>Supporting useless people is the opposite of the word "practical."
Too bad you'll be among said "useless" people when AI and robots replace most jobs. But hey, Yarvin has said redundant useless eaters like newly redundant wagies like you will be given pods to live in..."waxed in like bee larvae" as he put it so there will be no leaving. Only "useful" people in this future will be techbros like pic and their ennobled ilk - sorry faggot but you are a peon and no longer useful so enjoy the pod I guess.

If you killed usurers and rent-seekers the need for income would practically disappear.

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>>533559277
ubi is for slave-coded dependents who cannot conceive of providing for themselves. They are green, paper chains just like the usurious contracts they pretend to replace. An alternative was provided.
qos, chion, phomet, zebub, peor, hadaad, remphan and hashem tongue my balls in submission.

The issue is a boundary problem. To be UBI and not just a change in tax rate/tax break for the poor it must be a livable amount of money. The problem is if it is a livable amount of money then people with shit jobs will not do them. We have not automated all of the shit tier jobs needed to keep society running (think miners, garbage men, etc). Until all shit tier jobs people won't do if they can get a livable income without it then UBI is a pipe dream.
What you should aim for instead if you actually care about things is to lower the max number of work hours in a week to match the people to the actually necessary labour (and get rid of fake make work jobs).

>>533559312
I'm not a wagie, you dumb bitch.

>>533559564
>a livable amount of money
That's a start.
How much exactly do you think that is?

>>533559564
>The problem is if it is a livable amount of money then people with shit jobs will not do them.
The original point of UBI is changing the way money is created. (Under the central banking system, it is currently created through debt and the supply of money grows exponentially because of compounding interest.) It was not intended to guarantee a living standard.

>>533557672
The ai llm I used to ask about this said that everyone will get enough credits to buy enough food to live and a place to not be homeless and other basic needs.
But then, there will be a top tier quality of life option that is all luxury.
Who gets which life quality tier will be determined by your dna.
If you have undesirable or missing genomes, then you just get the basics.
If you have desirable genomes, you get the upgrade.
Your credits can be controlled and revoked by an Artificially Intelligent Entity System that nudges, rewards, punishes, and continuouslly modifies your behavior.
And all of your interactions with AI llm's right now, are also modifying your behavior, covertly, to psychologically prep you for this future.
There will be little to no jobs or work. Your new job, is


to comply with the system.
I'm not saying I believe it. But this is what it said.

>>533559650
As noted without automation of trash tier jobs you will see a spiraling increase in costs for those businesses to pay the increased wages necessary to get people to do them. This puts a requirement to keep increasing the livable income and you're left with a runaway inflationary spiral. So the end result is "infinity" until you actually automate all jobs, or you switch it from UBI to be something more reasonable like fixing work hours, or just admin it will be a tax break for the poor and not UBI.

>>533559804
>enough credits
Okay we're using dollars, can you ask your AI LLM how much that is in dollars? Or answer yourself?

It will be the mark of the beast which is a type of digital currency microchip implemented by your social credit score.
It will have your identity your bank account everything.
This is supposedly what brings Jesus back according to the Bible. Not some phoney baloney war in Iran.

>>533557672
I think you start with citizen adults. I wouldn't go too far below Yang's suggestion of $1000/mo. At least $750.

You would need some kind of VAT or federal sales tax to soak up liquidity. But you could structure it with exemptions for certain goods/services (like food, education, healthcare).

A combination of zero interest rates and natural growth from increased velocity should take care of a not insignificant offset in the new spending, on top of the aforementioned national sales tax.

The money would need to be distributed on a card, just like EBT. It's a real question as to whether it should be entirely electronic, as cash transactions would be less able to be taxed.

>>533559807
>This puts a requirement to keep increasing the livable income and you're left with a runaway inflationary spiral.
There is less inflationary spiral with a linear money growth function compared to debt-based currency (compounding interest).

>>533559807
Forget about the future, what's a livable amount of money right now, as in if UBI were implemented right now, today, how much should it be?

>>533557672
>The scope of "universal"
Anyone who sets foot in the country will get it. Any other implementation is some kind of -ism. And isms are bad.
>Income amount
Equivalent of whatever the minimum wage in California is at time of adoption paid bi weekly.
>The source of the money
Social credits. Created and destroyed on demand.
>Administration
Programmable digital currencies administered directly by the Federal Reserve . As long as you do as you are told and keep your mouth shut you will mostly get to use them. If you save too many they will expire. There will be a whole batch of things that make then expire. Some might not even be you fault, but it’s the price we see all willing to pay.

>>533557672
The truth is that most people that would need UBI would be willing to work at jobs that the private sector doesn't want to hire for. Once upon a time a deal was made. Civil Service employees would work for less pay in return for government employment that the politicians couldn't touch or meddle with -- that's so over!! It's time for a Newer Deal!

>>533557672
>>The scope of "universal"
Restricting this down to just the U.S 'cuz I dunno enough about anywhere else. Legal, adult or emancipated citizens. Possibly excluding felons, or people that commit particular kinds of crime that suggest the basic income is being directly used to commit crimes. Children and invalids can be claimed for additional income by someone else, but you can't both make your own income and be claimed.
>>Income amount
The military already has a decent model for this, in BAH. I imagine the best way is two separate payments, one household, one individual. Everyone 18 or emancipated is eligible for the individual payment, but the household payment can only be claimed for a given address once, and you have to provide some sort of proof of residence to claim it for that address. The address of the household payment is used to determine how much the payment is worth, since housing costs radically different depending on where you live.
>>The source of the money
I imagine a sliding, heavy income tax is the most reliable way. There's a cap on combined universal and personal income you can recieve, above the UBI. Once you start making combined personal income & UBI past a certain point, universal income is cut to match that cap. Once your personal income alone exceeds that cap you start paying taxes. Starting at say, 50% of everything earned past that amount, scaling up to the income ceiling after which all further income is taxed 100%, and the hard income cap.
>>Administration
I imagine income would be calculated yearly, along with regular tax information. Household income can be started, changed, ect at any time, through something similar to the DMV. Changing who is officially the homeowner, shit like that. They might also be able to handle things like activating income when someone turns 18, and other more short notice changes.

>>533559901
Zero.
They would be points which can be exchanged for select goods in designated locations only and void if unspent. They would be impossible to cede to anyone else of course.

>>533559901
This was an interaction from a while ago. The amount doesn't matter.
Under this system, dynamic pricing will be in place for everyone for every purchase they make.
An AI system will calculate factors including your compliance levels and prices paid for goods and services will change based on that.
It won't be about how many credits one has. It is all about your dna and your compliance to the system.

>>533559574
Tradies will be toast too - subservient mexicans and jeets will take the few remaining jobs machines can't do. And no, the human form factor will not save you from robots as working environments, home construction etc. will be optimized for robotic form factors you cannot yet imagine. I guess you could be a criminal, in which case there may be a future for you stealing shit from the "nobility". Ideas of use and usefulness are so pre-AI.

>>533533887

>>533560062
>Anyone who sets foot in the country will get it. Any other implementation is some kind of -ism. And isms are bad.
No.
With UBI, you need to prevent a sybil attack which is someone receiving extra dividends through identity fraud.
Example is a community gives each member $1 each day. Someone barges in and fakes multiple identities to claim $10 each day instead.

>>533559999
That is why I said it is a boundary problem. Monetary creation policy is irrelevant if the actually important jobs needed to keep the lights on in society won't get done as people can live off of the UBI numbers. Even if you doubled the amount UBI pays out you will not get enough people who would still be willing to do things like sewage work, garbage work, etc. So either you have a self feeding spiral or societal collapse as jobs aren't done.
Also lets be perfectly frank, there is no scenario where UBI would magically get rid of loans/debt in the modern world.

>>533560210
>Tradies will be toast too
What part of I am not a wagie do you not understand? I don't need a boss telling me what to do to make money.

Also,
>Yarvin
You have to be an absolute idiot to listen to a kike that dysgenic.

>>533560032
Massively dependent on area because people don't realize just how inefficient urban systems are. But lets arbitrarily say 3k. It won't last more than a couple of months before water stops being safe, the lights don't stay on, etc.

>>533557672
Will never work in a multicultural society. The only way this shit can work is if we kill all niggers and Jews, deport all Mexicans, Indians, and turdworlders, and revert the US to its pre-1965 demographics and social cohesion. If everyone was on the same social contract we could successfully do lots of shit, socialized medicine, great schools, state funded universities, investing in research, the list goes on. ALLLLLL this socialism shit is 100% dependent on 1 thing - a monocultural society that abhors free riders. Once one group of people enters society and starts playing for gibs and in-group benefits then the whole things flushes down the toilet to the Tragedy of the Commons.

You want socialism? Shut the fuck up about multiculturalism and don't stand in the way of the dissident right.

>>533560253
UBI requires a complete revision of the current system.
You can give 1 unit of currency each time interval and allow the market/productivity to determine valuation like in current implementations of UBI (alt currencies).
This completely rejects the premise / goal of guaranteeing a living standard.
>>533559238

>>533557672
You'd have to be retarded to think it will be universal
Distribute it evenly and prices will just rise to wipe out the amount, and then some
Plus, the same politicians who would vote for ubi would also put equity conditions on it, so blacks and gays would get more than white men

>>533557672
>Income amount
This very issue is why UBI will never work in a capitalistic society.
Without imposing price limits on certain items, corporations can simply collude and raise prices on all items to make sure your UBI check never cuts it.

In an economic system where the government controls pricing, sure it'd work. But America would never fit it.

So can i start terraforming deserts for fun now

Any form of labor should guarantee housing. Really that simple! 30 hours a week and you have your own place. In a ubi society that would be government jobs.

>>533558752
I'll just tell the federal reserve to print infinite money, easy peasy. If that doesn't work I'll take the rich 99 percent. If they try to move to another country/jurisdiction I'll just make that illegal or arrest them. If that doesn't work I'll make everyone work every day and then tax them enough to redistribute the money for their lodging and food. If they realize that is just slavery I'll pay the army to kill everyone and then we'll have all the money! It's a retarded proposition. You're retarded. It's either an economic disaster that leads to immediate hyperinflation and debases the currency, or it's communism enforced by the only political power greater than money, which is violence. The only semi possible maybe in a million years long shot is you get rid of every social service and welfare program, and redistribute that equally as a monthly stipend to every tax paying citizen. No more public school, no more department of transportation, no more social security, no more Medicare, no more three letter overwatch agencies, no more public parks. In conclusion, you're a faggot. I gave you the highest effort post you're gonna get. Reply to me hylic.

>>533560367
It's not a pricing issue, it's supply
When people are able to afford something because the price drops (TV's, computers, etc.) that's good, and consumers win
When people are able to afford something only because they've been given money (student loans), that's bad

>>533560307
>You have to be an absolute idiot to listen to a kike that dysgenic.
He's JD Vance's brain basically. Vance is an idiot, but a powerful one.

>>533560231
It’s going to be administered via digital ID.
Your ID gets a certain number of credits. If they go missing that’s your problem not theirs, since they will declare the system “secure” despite having spread your biometrics all over the internet via shoddy security, bad implementation. and way too liberal third party sharing.

>>533560353
It isn't UBI if it isn't a livable wage. And you can reinvent the monetary system all you want. That doesn't change the physical labor requirements needed to keep society functioning, or the fact that we haven't automated it. Which means any system will require people to do that work and that work sucks, so they won't do it if a livable "pay" is provided.

>>533560517
To be honest I've never listened to either of them. One of them looks like the dumbest most inbred kike ever, and the other married a poo. Why would I give any attention to either of them or their thoughts?

>>533560554
>It isn't UBI if it isn't a livable wage.
UBI just means you get a fixed dividend at a specific interval of time regardless of the principal amount you hold.
Has nothing to do with the government or standard of living.
Even cryptocurrency implementations exist.
Similar to how richfags in the current system earn dividend payments based on deposit and holdings except UBI operates regardless of the principal amount.

>>533560673
If it isn't a livable wage it is just a new tax rebate and won't address any of the problems people think UBI will magically solve (such as allowing us to get rid of the bloated and retarded welfare system and state)

>>533560673
Also both multiplayer tabletop games and video games have implementations of UBI.
Not exactly real life, but it does give insights on inflation and wealth distribution.

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>>533557672
>Those seem like the biggest issues, let me know if I've overlooked anything important.
Yes, the reason why they should pay. If AI has robots and post-human biobots, what threat are we to enforce a proportionate share of all resources?
Every social system, every share in land was enforced with the threat of the guillotine.

>>533560740
Maybe the government shouldn't implement UBI then.
Good way to think about this is how richfags in the current system have (nonuniversal) basic income despite the government.

>>533560917
Why do you think I said it is unworkable for now.
A much better system is what I noted above. Having the government flexibly lower the work hours allowed per week for full time to match the man hours available to do labor with the amount that needs to be done (limited to actual real jobs, get rid of fake work). When you start forcefully lowering the hours per work people have to work to ensure everyone gets a job, the overall standard of living would rise. However wall street would lynch you for even trying it.

>>533557672
UBI means:
1. Everyone (who is a legal citizen of course)
2. The ammount must be enough to minimally live off of. The idea of UBI is to give people a baseline and the motivation to work is to be able to afford extra
3. Corporate taxes i think, the purpose of UBI is to keep capitalism from collapsing so the capitalists have to pay for it.
4. Direct deposit. The IRS can handle it.

>>533560992
It's okay for parallel economies and video games. It's a great idea overall because the middle class is the largest class and the money growth rate is linear.
It's a great idea but doing so in dollars doesn't make sense as the current system is a total mess.

>>533557843
coping retards replying
it is posible to implement it
it would make middle class and higher middle class much less welthy, they would barely qualify as midle class after 5-10 y
the resoult of ubi is masive unemployment and grey market
all nigers would get ubi, mexicans would ger ubi and do some side unregistered jobs even whites would be like : " 80 dolars for not doing anything whole day or 200 dolars for 10h shift (30$ an hour - taxes, fuel, car insurance etc) , hmm i guess it's permament vacation time"

this idea would colapse in 5 y with 40% unemployment

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>>533561268
>it would make middle class and higher middle class much less welthy, they would barely qualify as midle class after 5-10 y
Wrong. Pic related is basically a watered down version of
https://en.trm.creationmonetaire.info/appendice-2.html#asymetries-initiales

>>533560992
ngl i would be fine with working 4h a day or 24 h a week (2 days 12h for example)
but because the only option is to wage slave 8-12h i am out, when i worked thru agencies in UK they would force me to work 55h + a week

>>533561268
It's for the upcoming 40% unemployment situation. The idea is to pacify people until revolution is impossible, then the water in the pot will increase in temperature. Interesting side note: Altman, the stable genius, proposed a UBI financed by a proportional tax on AI GDP increase. He banks on goyim not understanding compound effects. Outcome of his numbers is less than 20% of everything for us, 80%+ for the few owners of AI. And then the UBI receivers need to hand over what they have left each month to AI, to compete against the other UBI receivers with better return on invest. After some time, the owners of AI own everything.

>>533561414
your little commie model claim the middle class will lose half the income, and that assuming noone will leave the workforce
i was wrong, this would lead to 60% unemployment

>>533561414
As I just wrote, do this math with Sam Altman's proposal please. And make sure to do it yourself, not let his AI tell you.

>>533561515
What makes it communism? Is it "real communism" if no government is involved?

>>533557672
youre suppose to create a cryptocurrency that works, you plug in a miner and it generates income kind of like a cbaal paladin bot in diablo 2 in 2008 theres your bloomin fuckin UBI right there cunts.

>>533557672
>Let's say that the debate is over;
No. There is not need for burgers to even pay Federal taxes just so niggers won't starve

>>533561568
its the modern communism
(in og communism everyone had to do compulsory work even if it was useles)
first imlement ubi - resoult in masive unemployment
then the polititians bring solution to the problem they themselfs created : compulsory employmemt
ubi + job pay

>>533561597
This.
Reminder that corporations having disproportionate wealth and power are so to begin with is because of the current system of investing in them to begin with to earn dividends.

>>533557672
These are minor things that would be decided by bureaucrats and politicians. Like seriously
>How exactly are monetary policies going to be adjusted for this

You asking for an "exact" adjusment for something that won't even occur until the future when monetary everything will be in an unknown state. Mind as well ask whether the forums will be printed on white or yellow paper.

>>533561702
It's never been tried before amirite?

>>533561568
The AI system would be the government.

>>533561597
The real way to farm high runes was Hell cows at /players 2 or 3 and LK chests. cbaal was for competing on the ladder.

>>533561414
You increases the money supply by more than 60%, and now everyone has less purchasing power.

Way to go, retard.

>>533561779
You don't need an AI for UBI. You need either a ledger, time bank (predecessor to the idea) or a ~{b l o c k c h a i n}~ depending on scale.

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>>533561833
The money supply increases linearly which is less than it would be with compounding interest (exponential growth).

>>533561123
Please do think about the reason why they should pay. But read history first. Human nature has not changed. I am not that old, and I have personally seen what the x% psychos do to people who have zero power against them. And politicians and AI owners are psychos (the genetic behavioral pattern, not the meme word).

>>533561993
The fuck doesn’t interest have to do with it? And no, it is NOT less than interest would be, but that’s irrelevant you economically illiterate retard.

>>533561887
Which way fucks over the most Americans by the government?
That is the way they will choose how to do it.

>>533561993
That alone is a major problem, because AI control and advances often increase exponentially. So you become even more powerless. Where's the saturation point? Before or after recycling the legacy meat into designer biobots for AI?

>>533557672
>uhhhh we should pay people for doing nothing!
and you people want to convince me that is a serious policy proposal?

>>533562132
How is money created?
Under UBI, it is created based on time and number of people.
In the current financial system, it is created by taking out a loan that must be repaid with interest.
Play any multiplayer video game or MMO that uses some variation of UBI.
You'll find out pretty that quick 0 games use fractional reserve banking or any form of compounding interest.

>>533561430
wait until you find out what part time work is.

>>533562279
>let’s run the economy like a videogame no one has ever played
Damn you are fucking retarded.

>>533557672
You are like 40 trillion$ in debt to a bunch of Chinese manufacturers or whatever and still simultaneously wasting even more money doing World Police wars and making more and more countries quit doing business with you. You don't have the money to afford universal welfare.

>>533562397
Most everyone has played Monopoly.
Every player gets $200 for passing Go.
You clearly don't play any video games.

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>>533562454
> Most everyone has played Monopoly.
>Every player gets $200 for passing Go.
>You clearly don't play any video games.

I concede the argument

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shartymarties itt be like

It makes you feel good to have a body representing you. It isn't necessary. It makes you feel like it doesn't work against you if it represents you. The govt as a body isn't necessary anymore. Since you won't be necessary anymore you don't need representation to be irrelevant. Surely you must know by now you don't even belong here. Earth is not your native environment. Technology is going to see to it that only the most primitive of humans remains here, if even them. You are leaving here in droves. Your made up money is as irrelevant as you.

>>533562194
The problem IMO is this: Providing a way of social mobility when AI is superhuman in economic tasks (already is in some office work) and soon human entrepreneurship. From the point of view of a rich person, there is only the problem of avoiding revolution until the non-havers can not threaten violence anymore due to AI and (bio)robotics.

But ultimately, this is all pretty moot, because the problems of rapid capability increase dwarf these problems easily. How to prevent doomsday when the number of methods to get it increases fast? Prevention is always more difficult than causing it, so the effort goes to infinity. And these are no small problems, many doomsday weapons are probably unknown right up until they go off. Psychos at the top almost nuked the world dozens of times, and sane people had to stop it by going against orders each time. And that was just little stupid bombs and rockets. Now it's prions, designer cancer cold viruses, and whatnot. Each year probably sees a new method now, and it's all on a totally connected global grid. I am pretty convinced that mathematical doomsday weapons are a thing, using small targeted changes to overcome stabilizing effects and cause global collapse. And even if this problem could magically vanish, the problem remains that the targeted self-improving evolution is now so rapid that nothing of human or even legacy general biological life remains within a handful of generations, so unleashing AI progress means saying no to survival as a culture, race and species, saying no to children and all. The Silicon Valley psychos (most of them gay, pedo and sadist) are currently debating how to achieve this BTW.

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>>533557672
Subsidies are more effective than UBI or welfare.

If the government were to annually invest 25% of taxes into farming and construction companies, and in return cap food at 1$ per daily calorie needs, and cap housing purchase cost to 200$ per square meter, all problems would disappear tomorrow. Solving this is actually very easy, but it won't be solved because of big noses, traitors and subhumans in our government.

>>533557672
Citizens only obviously. Convicts are permitted with the understanding that if they fuck up again it's straight to execution.
The amount is "sufficient for the basics". Details would need to be worked out with more economic information.
I would prefer paid yearly to encourage long term planning.
The money can come from addressing the nigger and jew issue, as UBI is doomed to be a corrupt waste of money if that remains unaddressed.
Allow the individual to choose how they receive it. Put the IRS in charge of it, they can do something useful for us for once.
The lack of actual responses shows how heavily botted this shithole is.

>>533562757
>when AI is superhuman
how about we first wait and see if it can become superhuman instead of trusting the promises of con artists about how this new technology will totally become superhuman and you should invest in their company right now?
even if an AI actually manages to become reliably a better entrepreneur than humans are, which isn't even in sight, you still need workers for execution. you still may have competing investment AI.
I don't see how destroying your entire economic system based on some potential future for which such destruction wouldn't even be necessary would work. you're asking for someone to shoot themselves in the head because you think it's possible they'll have a bad day tomorrow.
>doomsday popscience rant
nothing ever happens.

>>533562879
>the state allocating resources
Economic calculation problem.

>>533557672
>The scope of "universal"
everyone
>amount
this is a hard one and any measure will be gamed, ultimately
let's say, we take the per-capita GDP and carve out 30%, which is not huge given we're shutting down most other social services
>sources
taxes, tariffs
>Administration
the IRS mails you a check, you cash or deposit it at a bank of your choice

>>533557672
In any kind of implementation, it has to be hard to get money. The only thing that gives money any kind of buying value, is the effort required to acquire it. It sucks, but that is how money works. A store owner has no reason to accept your money in exchange for goods, if they have their own free money source too. A plumber has no reason to fix your pipes, if he doesn't need to plumb to get his free money.

>>533557672
now that the dust has settled, lets talk about the nuts and bolts of ubi.
basically everyone sits on their ass and collects free money while the government prints said money.
every day money becomes less valuable because adding to to supply ... whatever look it up.
if anyone ever ventured to create anything valuable, they would trade it for something else besides money because money would be a worthless depreciating shitfire.

Why is this gay shit being shilled so much lately?
UBI is a stepping stone to pods and bugs. We have enough bottom feeders already, why would anyone possibly be in favour of enabling even more. Ask yourself also, why would the technocrats willingly provide luxury to the masses, when they are offering nothing? They want nothing in exchange?

>>533563140
Easily circumvented if government subsidies, investments and grants are voluntary. Basically a company can choose whether they want to receive subsidies and in return sell for a fixed price, or not receive subsidies and sell for whatever price they want. A lot of smaller farms and builders will take the subsidies and investments because they're not able to compete with bigger companies, while bigger companies probably won't take subsidies and sell for more to make maximum profit. You get both. Poorer people will buy the cheaper subsidized products in the supermarket, and people who earn plenty buy the more expensive ones.

>>533557672
Just answer one question. Why would the people that will hold all the power pay (You)? What reason would they have for it, when they can just put you in a cage as a slave?
In the past (and now), the reason they can't do that is because the citizens still hold some power, they can potentially riot and bring down the authority figures. When the authority figures have robot armies, that reason will cease to exist.

>>533563625
>We have
I don't "have" anyone. Are you a slave-owner of some sort? Business man?
>They want nothing in exchange?
maybe they want to live?
>>533563650
this is your brain on socialism lol
the companies will take the subsidies and STILL shaft their customers, on quality if they can't do it on price
moron

>>533563659
>Just answer one question. Why would the people that will hold all the power pay (You)?
you start from a wrong premise
nobody holds all the power

>>533563625
>Why is this gay shit being shilled so much lately?
Because most people will be replaced with robots in the coming years. The seeds of this idea needs to be preemptively planted in their minds for them to not start rioting.
>don't worry goy, we will give you money for free, you don't need to worry about losing your job to some robots
>don't worry about why we would do that instead of killing or enslaving you, just trust us

>>533563905
>What is quality control
It's already illegal to sell food or housing below a certain standard, you retard.

>>533563961
>nobody holds all the power
I've already said that that was the case in the past. That's why it didn't happen before, but that will change when the authority figures have robot armies under their total control. They won't need to command some human soldier to attack you. The human soldier might decide to refuse the order, he is also a human after all. But the robot will just do whatever it is told to do, they won't need to worry about backlash or riots.

>>533563650
>circumvented by subsidies
It's not circumvented. It's lessened in the sense that it's less of a distortion that total government allocation if the subsidies are only a part of it.
>a company can choose whether they want a subsidy or not
It's still a distortion.
besides, those money you are taking them away more urgend uses by definition, and so are the resources used in the subsidized enterprises.

>>533564212
>riots
lol, it's going to be full-on Butlerian jihad if it comes to that
if the machines are still stupider than people, people win
if they become smarter, they will no longer take orders from people

>>533564309
The main problem of a fully centrally planned economy is that the market has no option to correct itself, because companies and buyers have no options outside of what the governments sets.
A hybrid option, where it still has market prices and voluntary purchasing options available (on top of subsidies which are voluntary and not forced), means that the main problem is circumvented, as both companies and buyers can choose whether to stick with the market product or subsidized product. Voluntary option = no forcefully centrally planned economy.

If you want to argue it distorts the market, then you might as well have no regulation at all since every type of regulation distorts the market, unless you're asking for a completely free market which is retarded in a world where ressources are limited and thus vulnerable to be monopolized and extorted.

>>533564093
and the standards agencies are incorruptible
and the politicians who nominate the heads of said agencies don't need cushy no-show jobs after they get voted out of politics

>>533565142
>because companies and buyers have no options outside of what the governments sets.
Big companies alone are enough. The few market hogs decide the standard, mixture of collusion and design by committee. Only the few who have access to serious capital can break these essentially communist systems into n+1, which changes nothing.

>>533565167
There are a couple ways to deal with that. For example when the standards are first set up, write them down like ammendments with the stipulation that politicians and agencies can't change them unless 70% of the population agrees to it in a nationwide referrendum. Then if a subsidized company does not follow the standards, any private person can sue them and the result is decided by a public jury. That way neither corrupt agencies nor politicians can mess with the standards. There are various ways to deal with corruption as long as you set it up properly, but that's a quesiton of general rule rather than economy. The answer is usually more public referendums making decisions instead of politicians making decisions.

>>533566356
>For example when the standards are first set up, write them down like ammendments with the stipulation that politicians and agencies can't change them unless 70% of the population agrees to it in a nationwide referrendum.
this is perfectly stupid of course

>>The source of the money

Dividends from signing off on all data that personal devices collect. Those who receive UBI must consent to health, social, and mental tracking for pooled research at a societal level which will lead to "beneficial," and profitable breakthroughs for "the greater good." Instead of profitable, proprietary breakthroughs for tech oligarchs.

>>533566575
>health, social, and mental tracking for pooled research
It won't stay at tracking. Bio knowledge to make the elites eternal, and to battle each other with biobots and GMO pathogens. You VILL suffer the experiments for UBI. What other value of humans is there now? The labs will be colorful, and their comforting wagies will smile.

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>>533557672
>UBI
My little goyims are dreaming big.

>>533557672
> Scope of universal
Everyone with a digital id and a high enough commie social credit score
>Income
Enough to get base food and rent low quality housing, you want more get a job or do a succesfull creative project lil nigger
>Source of money
Well money is a representation of labour so the labour has to come from somewhere so it be based on the amount of labour an AI could produce (ubi and communism can only work with slaves so either AI droid become the slaves or you need humans)
> Administration
Consists out of a rich elite statecorp that owns everything while you the prole goy "equally" own nothing. It gets put on your bankaccount linked to palantir and federal reserve

The question is why you should want this

>>533557769
Everyone except those controlling the killbots will be culled

>>533558228
If their useless people then by them being useless obviously it isnt beneficial or practical, but also if you produce non-scarcity whether real or faux, essentially makes people breed until scarcity returns so youd just have useless low iq normiefags who add nothing to society breeding the world into apocalypse. High IQs as per natural law wont breed as much compared to the low iq tiktok reddit tier retards.

Theres also a huge argument to be made to what happens to a society if you remove all challenge and meaning from it, sure some high iq chads will absurdistly overcome and create their own meaning, but for many it will just be existential dread, infantality which leads to social chaos because you have a generation of children in the bodies of adults (see millenials)

>>533557672
>WEF globalist faggot thread
>So how do we implement this idea that cannot be implemented
You were already told it would be single handedly destroyed by fraud and yet you still persist with your delusions.
You were already told an alternative strategy.
You continue to persist in these delusions and have outsourced your thinking to terminally online people with no real world experience.
You will never succeed whilst you're ignorant of the facts.

>>533557672
only permanent resident citizens aka people will spend the money exclusively on local economies. immigrants will just send it away in remittances. the US already loses hundreds of billions of dollars a year due to foreigners coming here, stealing jobs, and sending the money away.

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>>533557672
Here is a better idea:

Give every person a single time 500.000$ (adjusted to inflation) when they turn 21. Anyone who is hard working and smart will use that money to do something with themselves. Anyone who wastes that money has no one but themselves to blame. Basically, invest in people once to give them a chance to prosper like you do with companies instead of feeding them for life like parasites.

>>533557672
1. Zero immigration
Since step one will never happen, everything else is moot.
>pretend you didn't eat breakfast
Pretend immigration is zero. You can't because it's as implausible as FTL travel.

>>533567274
500.000k is crazy also wym adjusted to inflation if you give everyone 500k that automatically inflates forcing you to essentially adjust forever

>>533566739
So we agree, this is viable and likely.

>>533567423
500k is the average house price in a city right now. Getting a single time payment in that amount stops people from having to take a loan. It's not crazy at all.
Also, if it's not adjusted for inflation every year then people who get born later, get less in value and therefore less opportunity. Unless you remove money from circulation in equal amount, you have to adjust it somehow.
I'd much rather give everyone an opportunity once than give continous free money to parasites.

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>>533557769
kys

Why are people wasting their energy on things that will never happen? Money for nothing and your chicks for free? May as well fantasize about getting a star trek replicator

>>533567737
Okay so just give housing for free instead of UBI? Ofcourse again that money still needs to have labour backing it, houses arent free to build and produce so if you buy the houses with no labour, again inflation. Robotics isnt even close to postscarcity.

If you dont produce labour why should you deserve a house if its peoples labour that is needed to make said house

>>533557672
They're not going to bother when they can just quietly kill most of the population instead, and I don't blame them for it at all. This will never be a realistic expectation, but they'll keep dangling the idea as a distraction until enough of us are gone.

>>533567999
I feel like they would do it but only if u sterilize yourself and become completely subservient to them

>>533567984
It's better to allow people to choose what to do with the money instead of giving them a house. Some people want to put it in education or start a company. The point of an investment is to give them the opportunity to grow how they manage best.

Here is an example of something similar that happened once: People who came to the Americas received several acres of free land as an incentive to cultivate it. Those who did well became well off farmers, and those who failed sold it to those who were good farmers. That investment is what built America. Investment in people is an investment in prosperity. What i'm proposing is the money version of that type of investment in people. A Single time 500.000$, after that they never receive money again.