Does /pol/ believe that humans have free will?
Yes, only idiotic Calvinists and other midwits deny it.
>>533688583I haven't really heard a good definition for it so I don't know.
>>533688658/thread
No.Everything, including how you think is determined by chemical reactions in your brain, the simple fact mind altering drugs exist is proof free-will is a myth.
>>533688583Absolutely not. Everything that happens in the universe is predetermined and cannot be changed.
>>533688658And physicists If free will exists, you always will, have, and are making the same decisions invariably
>>533688583hell no. not even once
>>533688658If God knows what you're going to do, there is no choice being made. You're simply obeying your programing.
No, but it feels like you do. It doesnt change what actions should be taken
>>533688583>>533688658>>533688949I see no reason to think it exists. The way you go about your daily life is nothing more than habit and training. You occasionally seem to make big decisions to pursue the things you want, but do you choose what it is you want? Absolutely not.
>>533688583how is that free will. Can he refuse to come down? No. Gravity bites.
>>533689111QM makes this pretty unlikely
only if you are a true human with a divine spark and not some hylic neurotypicaleven then you are constrained by variables and a options available to you
>>533688583it all comes down to semantics. theres a lot of faggots trying to complicate the concept of free will because they have an agenda that relies on denying it.can you make decisions? voila! you have free will. the origin of how you acquired this ability is irrelevant
>>533689526Or we just don't understand enough about it yet.The appearance of randomness always seems to decrease the more you understand how something works. The quantum world is likely no different.
>>533688583As much as the guy personally annoys me, Kyle Hill did a great video covering the basics of free will and the chain of causality:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2GCVsYc6hc
>>533688583Define free will
>>533689616>can you make decisions?But what made you make that decision instead of a different one?
There was a young man who said damnFor it certainly seems that I am A creature that movesIn determinate grooves,I’m not even a bus I’m a tram.
>>533688960
>>533689854Meds
>>533689737>The appearance of randomness always seems to decrease the more you understand how something works.QM is the opposite, the better it's understood the harder it is to maintain a deterministic interpretation. I'm not saying it is settled it's just hard to justify determinism and the mainstream interpretation is indeterministic
>>533688583Nothing is "free" somebody had to pay for the will and you just enjoy the benefits.
>>533689854Based
>>533689129Quantum physics clearly shows the universe is not deterministic. Yet they still have not been able to clearly show what exactly is an "observer". It really seems to show that consciousness acts as the observer, the soul, so free will does exist.
>>533688583My attitude has always been that if you can't predict it it makes no difference whatsoever whether outcomes were all theoretically pre-established or not.The idea seems to disturb some people a lot and I don't even understand why.
>>533690175>Yet they still have not been able to clearly show what exactly is an "observer".Where did you get that idea? An observer is any quantum interaction
>>53368986I hate this fucking meme because both arguments are dog shit.Donald doesn't explain WHY he thinks our universe being deterministic means that nothing has any "intrinsic value".Mickey really doesn't address determinism at all in his response. He sort of hints at how conscious beings may have a limited scope of reality, but then goes off the rails. What the fuck is he talking about with "All knowledge is based on that which we cannot prove?" That's total crap, and the opposite is actually true. All knowledge is based on that which we CAN prove. And fight what, Mickey? FIGHT WHAT?! Stop spouting pseudointellectual bullshit you fucking retarded mouse.
>>533690295Then why don't the walls of the 2 slit experiment "observe" the photon passing by? Observation only seems to happen once a conscious observer interacts.
>>533690343Also meds
>>533688826I haven't really heard a good, non-empirical definition for causal so I don't know.
>>533690349Why would the walls interact with the photons? Requiring conscious observation makes no sense at all, events that are not observed still have effects
>>533689739those arent pills theyre suppositories
>>533690343FUCK, I meant to reply to >>533689861>>533690388There's no meds for autism, I'm afraid.
>>533688583We don't. We are presented with a choice but our neurons are balanced to going one way, it's like a scale that will always tip in one direction. That's the basics of determinism
>>533690175Eternalism insists that motion and the passage of time are illusions of an incomplete perception. Space and time are the same thing in general relativity and space is invariant. This is what Einstein meant when he said the passage of time was a persistent illusion
>>533688583Raise your right arm,how'd you do it?
>>533689854Trams is hard jobs
>>533689984I did study physics for a time so I'm somewhat aware and it's the whole reason why a unified field theory continues to elude us as a species.The entire history of science has been building upon one person's incorrect interpretation of the universe with someone else's slightly less incorrect interpretation, the way we understand QM now is almost certainly incorrect and different to the way we will 100-200 years down the line.
>>533688583that definition is wrong>unimpeded
>>533690458>events that are not observed still have effectsNot until they're observed, then they resolve.
>>533688583what difference does it make? that nigger needs to go to jail, don’t care if he’s retarded or whatever
>>533688658Everyone thinks they're capable of making their own decisions. Then they go to do whatever it is they wanted to do and see a line of other people just like them that were fed the same algorithms. Women suffer from an even starker Dunning-Kruger-like effect here. Basically only a handful of people have actual freewill if at all
>>533690653How does the cat not know if he’s dead or alive in the box? Don’t we observe the events of our own existence?
>>533689854Yeah it does seem. Very much so. I'd be tempted to strangle someone who said we was automated
It matters not whether or not the universe is deterministic in the question of free will. That just means some decisions are influenced by a quantum randomness. Free will implies control over the decision (which obviously determinism negates) and random variables being involved doesn't get around that control issue. You've only changed the mechanism from gears to dice.
>>533688960>mind altering drugsI used to believe this before, but upon having recent deep thoughts on this, it is still possible to have free will despite your behavior changing due to external inputs.Mind altering drugs alters your behavior and certain aspects but doesn’t actually change who you are. It mainly impacts your perception, your observations that are dependent on your biology.
>>533690175>Yet they still have not been able to clearly show what exactly is an "observer".My understanding is that basic textbook QM intentionally keep this vague because it's enough to show that the theory has real world effects and can be demonstrated. You don't NEED to explain how the theory works at the macro scale for the observer and the environment. Obviously there SHOULD be an explanation, but it's not necessary to make QM useful.You start trying to explain it at macro scale for everything and it's more speculative it seems.IIUC the main way to explain it is "decoherence" spreading as a sort of causal chain reaction as quantum interactions occur. I imagine it as spreading like a sort of bubble, or graph of bubbles. It reaches the detectors and then it reaches humans reading the detectors. Before it reaches you, what happens in the bubbles is unknowingly probabilistic but it doesn't matter because it's causally disconnected.It doesn't explain what makes this possible, what the bubble "is" before it reaches you, but it doesn't give any special powers to "conscious" observers.>It really seems to show that consciousness acts as the observer, the soul, so free will does exist.That's one interpretation but I think it's silly desu. Magic thinking.
>>533690604>The entire history of science has been building upon one person's incorrect interpretation of the universewhat? what the fuck is this? who is that one person and what is his incorrect interpretation? sounds like bullshit to me.
>>533688583Yes and no. Your genetics are your operating system, they govern most of your behavior. That being said, your environment influences your actions. From the standpoint of the absolute, you have no freewill, all things are predetermined by the source. Hamlet exists inside the mind of Shakespeare but there’s a little Shakespeare in Hamlet. You have the illusion of freewill so you can experience and learn. So for all intents and purposes, that is freewill.
>>533690949I doubt the quantum degradation or whatever is truly random, if it was fully understood, someone could understand what way the thing would flip
>>533691257> Your genetics are your operating systemIsn’t it the other way around? Your hardware?
>>533690785The cat is not a cat but a metaphor, it's like Moses and jezus
>>533691575Yes and yes. That might not be a great metaphor. Your genetics determine your behavior and limitations, which would include both hardware and software but people could interpret religion/philosophy as the software. That’s not what I’m talking about. Thanks for the correction.
>>533691035That's not how decoherence works BTW that's just how I imagined it.Apparently the more quantum interactions occur, the more outcomes will average out to classical behavior?By the time anyone had time to even think about what the detector says all of the quantum effects will be long gone.Still, the consciousness of observers makes no difference to it.And still it doesn't explain how any of this is possible.
>>533688583Brown people believe everything is preordained as God wills it. Free will is a white trait.
>>53368858395% of people are literal NPCs with no "spark"
>>533689616What is the "you" that makes that decision? If your response is some flavor of "the brain," then your decisions are entirely deterministic and not free.Even if you say you are being controlled by something magical like a soul, do you control what that soul wants to achieve? I don't think so.
>>533689412Belief is in itself a manifestation of free will.
>>533692266I think a purely materialistic, deterministic brain would be more than capable of coming to its own conclusions and beliefs based on the inputs it receives.
>>533688583if you feel like you have free will, then nobody can tell you that you don't. but in reality, there is no such thing. somebody already knows how all of this is going to end.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-k9sTAYEQ
>>533691843Kinda how humans individually does not have easily predicted outcomes, but societies are easy to predict where they’re headed.
>>533692364>would There's no way for the conscious mind to monitor every input the brain receives. Therefore, it's limited only to what it can observe. Every act of observation is unique and cannot be replicated since the own mind doesn't know the set of causes that determined it. That gap constitutes the opportunity for free will to happen. Free will exists long as an observer exists.
Not bikers that's for sure.
>>533688583Free will is logically impossible. The behavior of any system is either deterministic or random. There is no other possibility.
>>533688583Simultaneously yes and no.
>>533688658based
>>533689129It will always be impossible to go forwards in time so no that is not true
https://youtu.be/iwp56gLGqh8?si=9Rurr1kHjllHvbvC
>>533692685Alot of counter arguments against free will is mainly just the "ice cream flavor dichotomy". It reduces every single aspect of life to a binary choice in a brief period. Decisions are not made impulsively. Sometimes they are processed for days, months, years. And that just because you have only a few set of flavors, you have no free will because you cannot choose a flavor that doesn’t exist.
>>533692895kys pedo
>>533690604> QM now is almost certainly incorrectHow do you define correct/incorrect. QM is correct in that it accurately describes many interactions. Like, is Newtonian gravity also incorrect because it was superseded? I don't think so. Incomplete descriptions are not wrong.
who cares sounds like faggot shit...if your opinion on the matter mattered you would have been consulted
>>533688583>i dont want to drink fluids>diesNice free will u got there retard
>>533688583The example given is suggesting the boy on the bike was forced to do a dirt jump. Who is forcing him and why?
>>533692912>ice cream dichotomy Doesn't matter. I always choose chocolate over every other flavor. I have no way of knowing if I'm being manipulated into it by Deus sive Natura.>you cannot choose a flavor that doesn’t exist.Everything exists. There's no such thing as "the unreal".
>>533688583"Free will" more a trick of language than it is a real thing. Two opposite words chained together. But sure, yes, humans have it. Freedom is infinite, boundless, chaotic, and without form. Will constrains it, limits it, shapes it into the single act you actually choose. Would your choice be fully predictable by someone that knew the factors that influenced you? Yes, but that doesn't erase that you made the choice yourself.
>>533693043
>>533688583yeshttps://youtu.be/efET7NexiC8?si=iTADx_X8sdP-2BJz&t=90
>>533688583I'm here and calling you a nigger so yes I guess? Unless God had me preprogrammed to call you a nigger well God is based I guess.
>>53368858370% deterministic 30% free will
>>533693156>Would your choice be fully predictable by someone that knew the factors that influenced you? Yes, but that doesn't erase that you made the choice yourself.I can predict with total certainty that a train is going to turn when its rail turns, but you'd have me believe the train made a choice?
>>533693550No. If I wanted to say that, I would have said that. Go back to rehab.
>>533693612>retard can't take his logic one step furthermany such cases
>>533688583Free will is equal amongst all living things. So if I want something that's kn contrast to you, there will be a deciding time before action is taken.
>>533688583Not all do, as not all humans are souls.But the ones who are sure do have free will.
I have a question - what does it matter? It's not verifiable anyway
>>533688583If there actually is a difference between 'will' and 'free will', 'free will' must mean choosing a course of action not dictated by animal instincts, and since we know we can, 'free will' does indeed exist
>>533690146>>533688583>Memeflag>2PBTIDWhat does this mean?This is a 1PBTID timewasting/demoralization and information gathering thread with an extra post to try to hide the fact that it's a shill thread. The OP is a faggot
>>533693775Normies want meaning in their lives
>>533693782>since we know we can, 'free will' does indeed existThis presumes you know everything there is to know about animal instincts. I think they're a lot more complex than you seem to imply
>>533688583Good Knievel
You are as free as any other human stuck on planet earth.
>>533689412This is the only intelligent comment in the thread so far. Our brains exist to develop narratives that string together the things our bodies do based on millions of years of evolution of these meat-sacks we call bodies that are purpose-built to replicate their own genetic material in an endless war for supremacy through complexity.
"will" is "volition" but it also means "choice""free will" means freedom of choice is choice inherently free?what would non-free choice be?is being coerced into choice possible? technically no, but one might choose to surrender to an outer force. Is being bent into shape free will?is there any free will in extreme circumstances, like torture or predation?
