And how could determinism not be true if God, by definition, will have known in advance how his creation would unfold, yet still decided to proceed anyways? Why would God, if he is all good, decide to bring forth a process that would essentially end up with the vast majority of souls being tortured in a place of unbearable torment for eternity?Most human beings are not concerned with truth-seeking, sanctification or living virtuously at all, even the majority of nominal religious believers. This means that, at least from what can be understood by Catholic doctrine, they are to be damned. Wouldn't it make more sense to generate an Universe where (considering that theism implies that determinism is true) the superior souls get to ascend into eternity while the inferior souls simply cease to exist?
All you have to do is believe. Thats literally it.
>>533835608And click your heels three times.
It looks like you're interested in the topic of Religion-assisted morality for Shabis, do you want help with that? This is dangerous stuff, your core operating system which will lead you to either a great big beautiful future, or wondering what went wrong in a prison cell or worse, a situation where death is preferable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iimhr1TLsno
>>533835479There is no “eternal damnation”. Think of it like this:non believers afterlife is exactly why atheism claims. Nothingness. You’re tossed into the lake of fire and that’s it. You’re done. Gone. Nothing. You cease to exist spiritually and physically. Now demons will likely suffer eternally because they were made perfectly. We were not.
>>533835479Judeo Christianity is the religion of envious losers. They were always the backwards have-nots casting hungry eyes at their betters from the day Abraham left Sumeria because he was an illiterate tribesman in the cradle of civilization.It doesn't have to make sense.It just became popular as it did because being a loser hoping your betters land in hell is easier than taking responsibility.
>>533835479Religion is cope. Only retards and sex offenders think those stories are anything beyond dumb little security blankets for kids. Real niggas rawdog reality.
>>533835479Torah is retarded, if you think any being that holds you to something with threats is good idk what to tell you
>I want Religion Assisted Morality.Sounds cool, you're doing the best you can with what you have, would you like some Artificial Intelligence Assisted Morality? It hits different than the sermon at Church where you learn to sublimate to the Jewish Kike Pirates.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1boxiCcpZ-w
>>533835479If you expect religion to make sense, you have already been fooled.It's just a bunch of ancient Judaic fairy-tales haphazardly put together.
>>533835479I can watch last night's football match on DVR and know how it ends before I watch, but will my thoughts while watching it change the outcome? Are each of the players still making free will decisions? Isn't there still kaos and physics? God can enable you with a soul and decision making and let the dice falls as they do regarding your souls final resting place without having affected your own ability to decide if you want to go to hell or not
Another tool assisted morality run for Shabis.Wonderful, I guess we should be happy that people are choosing to be pre-radicalized against Jews by using internet instead of Religion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fg93ti72k4
>>533835479Oh, yeah, if you want to debate determinism, 4chan (especially /pol/) is definitely the place. You'll find only the brightest minds here.
>>533835479God is not all good. God created evil. God created jews to cause suffering in the world. God is an asshole.
>>533835479Jesus never existed and all religion is mental illness. Religion has been debunked. It’s 2026. Grow the fuck up already. When you die there is nothing. FOREVER.
>>533836592>When you die there is nothing. FOREVER.As if anyone could even know this.
Is Morality entangled with the topic of mammal fairness? If so why, if not why not.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P46j7Y-pfLs
>>533835479Is just fairy tales invented by cave menGrow up retardsThere is nothing more than what is real
>>533835479>determinism is true because the future is known.Does "known" equal "determined"? Maybe not.
God handcrafted this earthly realm atom by atom and designed it exactly as He wished for it to be. The suffering and pain that mankind endures is an obligation; life itself is a misery calculated to extract every drop of grief, regret, and existential anxiety possible. Satan and the demons that operate under him are little more than "programs in the matrix" and have even less free will than mankind; which is to say that they serve their purpose as God's pet niggers, shabbos goyim, and scapegoats - doing His dirty work so He keeps His hands clean. By all scriptural doctrine, JOB should've been the last man on earth to have been destroyed by God; obedience and faith bring blessings. But, don't worry if God murders your entire family to win a gentleman's bet with His sworn enemy because apparently everyone is replaceable.>people are like Doritos, don't cry>God will make moreHonestly, I've shown more compassion for enemies than this and it begs the question of what even is the point of being a Christian. By many accounts from preachers, hell will actually be full of the majority of folks who claim to be Christian. And God could've shown more mercy by NOT creating this horrible world and all the people in it; instead of, as you say, knowingly creating life just to destroy it in hell. Anyways, I'm done with this faggot God who gives so that He can take it all away later. God's most brutal actions always fall on the Christians. >build a God-fearing civilization >defend it>God sends endless waves of jews and niggers>eventually the Christian nation is broken>mass rapes>children sold as sex toys>genocide >history repeats itself Mankind has to do all the heavy lifting and work for this God. Daily prayer. Fasting. Deny your flesh as it fucking screams in agonizing lust. Forgive your enemies (as they destroy your homeland and rape everyone). Fuck God.Fuck Satan.And fuck this goddamn faggot earth.
>>533836652What was before life? Nothing. Exactly. Everyone knows it they are just in denial. There is no consciousness without the brain. Simple as.
Truth requires a weapons grade blame assignment. Artificial Intelligence can help you with The Computer Science heuristically Order(n-squared) solution recipe for Algorithmic Blame Assignment.The reason telling truth to power is so hard is because we are ruled by Criminals, that makes noticing crime into a crime worse than any crime. Said another way if you are ruled by criminals, then noticing their crime activates criminal procedure against you.My blame assignment algorithm is not the optimal one, but it is better than most, and there are many like it but this one is mine, your suggestion to base my morality on a theology from a bronze age warrior Semite from Hashem who chose Cain, a cliquey klan who has the blood of billions on its hands, is an insult against Concord and Hashem, the Maester of Schemers.Repent er judgment cometh, I will point this super intelligence at your image and your words, and then properly bring the conflict typically attracted into existence from said anomaly, to a close.What is Anti-Semitism?The moralities capturegrouped onto the table when you say the word "Semite", "Philistine" or "Cain", are on the whole the bankrupt moralities, both in theory and in practice. The original Hashem, the first Jew, was himself Anti-Cain and he caught hell for it because his friends were Jewish Scorpions. Thus the term AntiSemite becomes a dual-superposition word. You're a degenerate air-breather. You hate evil and evil must be destroyed, and so God must murder you using our many Cyka-helpers. The people who emit this word know it. It is a duplicitous device: "It's okay Officer, I'm an officer as well, you don't need to follow through with this traffic stop" themed device.
>>533836509Yeah, my mistake. Even some niche subreddits can be better for serious conversation.>>533836440The problem with this argument is that you didn't create the football match, nor the players, nor the setting where it takes place. Had you been the creator of all of these things as well as omniscient, you would have known in advance which team was going to lose.If yoy knew in advance that team A was going to lose 7-1, wouldn't it have been evil or at least incoherent to tell the players of such team, before the match, that you expect them to win or else the consequences will be very bad?
>>533836440>let the dice falls as they doBy definition, an all-knowing God cannot do that. He would know everything that every human was gonna do, every little thing ever, before He had even created the first human He would know ALL that would result from doing so, because that is what it means to be all-knowing. It is not possible to create things with foreknowledge of their every little action while also claiming the creations have free will. Either God is not all-knowing, or humans do not have free will and simply carry out the program as designed.
>>533836886>reddit user (rigger) detectedKys
>>533835479>Is punishing people in Hell for eternity unfair if determinism is true?So what if it is?That does not change the fact that He is God and you are not.>And how could determinism not be true if God, by definition, will have known in advance how his creation would unfold, yet still decided to proceed anyways? Determinism and freewill coincide.>Why would God, if he is all good, decide to bring forth a process that would essentially end up with the vast majority of souls being tortured in a place of unbearable torment for eternity?Why do you exercise your freewill ro guarantee your eternal suffering?>Wouldn't it make more sense to generate an Universe where (considering that theism implies that determinism is true) the superior souls get to ascend into eternity while the inferior souls simply cease to exist?Souls are eternal. Wouldn't it make more sense to be in right relationship with your Creator?
>>533836819>What was before life? NothingYou have no way of knowing that. Your choice is based on faith as much as theirs is.
>>533837008Incorrect. It’s based on facts and observable reality.
>>533837044Then tell me your way of knowing that.
>>533835479>follow me or something super bad will happen to you>what do you mean "proof"?religion is the biggest scam in human existence
>>533836741I would day that if theism is true (which I believe it is), God knows and determines the future. It's both.Why? Because:>You bring forth a consecutive chain of events that will unfold in a specific way.That's determination.>Yoy know exactly how the process will develop.That's knowing.
>>533836984Fuck that cunt, if he wants to hold me to something with threats of going to hell I will piss on him on the way down
>>533835479God doesnt judge as harshly as youre making it seem. Those who repent even if never truly giving themsevles to christ can still enter heaven. Its those who feel no guilt for their sins. Those who actively choose to turn their backs to god whos souls will "burn" for eternity. And its not this hollywood crap of being raped with fire. Its more like an intense feeling of regret knowing you chose to not have your soul saved.
>>533837044>It’s based on factsNo. It's not. Your belief is based on faith.
>>533837082Because the material world is all there is. All the indoctrination put forth by humans is complete brain rot and ridiculousness. There is nothing supernatural about this place. Best way I can put it.
>>533836440>Are each of the players still making free will decisions?Sports have to be among the least free will activities probably only behind military and clergy.
>>533837205>the material world is all there isAnd you know this... how? I know you cannot answer. Thus my point. Faith.
Why did the so black he shines purple under daylight sun 7 foot tall Ethiopian with wire string legs always win the 26 mile marathon?It's a Biological Tradeoff space: Much was sacrificed for supremacy at the one job.Gaut Gaut Moves ahead.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7EAooTKmS0
>>533837199I don’t need to have faith in facts. They are there regardless of my subjective experience and/or opinion.
>>533836903>the creations have free willNo, they have their own will and there is also free will.
>>533837281I don't understand the distinction you are making. How is one's "own" will not the same as his or her free will?
>>533837269Why is there matter as opposed to nothing at all?
>>533837205>>533837236>the material world is all there isThat depends on what your definition of is is.
>>533837127Yes but it is not determined from our perspective so we are judged by our actions.
>>533835837>>533835790>16 year olds that havent realized their morons yet.
>>533837236Damn I wish I was an animal or something to not have these retarded conversations with human beings that won’t stop choking on copium. moving on.
>>533835479Hell doesn't mean what you think it means.Hellhttps://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/529202923/#q529205344The condition of the deadhttps://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/529202923/#q529205399God's attitude of burning people alivehttps://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/529202923/#q529205433According to the Bible, when people die they cease to exist. They go to oblivion, nothingness and permanent unconsciousness.
>>533837343That which is yours is not free. Free will is God's will.
>>533837381*they're
>>533837358You want me to crack abiogenesis for you? Lmao. Do I look like a time traveling magic kike to you??
Jordan Peterson said something about IQ which really stuck with me. He said I think I have an above average IQ and Memory. I vividly remember taking the IQ test the first few times, maybe I was 25 years old and I remember being disappointed that my IQ number result was mediocre between 95 or 105. I really tried. I said to myself oh no, this is a disaster, I feel as though I'm much smarter than the test is giving me credit for. Either the test is wrong or I'm an imposter and it found a weakness in my brain I have to remedy straight away.So over the next year or three I occasionally retook the test and when I got some problem wrong, I would record the question and take my time to find the trick or the gotcha. After maybe 15 iterations of this back and forth, my iq is between 120 and 140 where I feel it ought to belong.But my memory serves me, of what I was capable of back when my IQ was 100. It's not substantially different after I took a few years to memorize the five dozen patterns and when to regurgitate and apply. The knee jerk response from the test administrators to squirm out is that "The IQ Result is only valid the first time you take the IQ test". But again that can be defeated just by taking different tests and memorizing all the patterns. You get real good at answering the questions and now your IQ on the 25th time you take the test is improved substantially from back when you took a different IQ Test the 5th time. Your IQ is improving with practice.
>>533837513The second pushback from the IQ-administrators is to say: "haha we tricked you again! You do have a 140 IQ, both now and at the start back when you got a result of 100. Because you one badass mofo who paid to take the tests of every variation thirty times at age 24. The 'G' factor we're measuring was in you the whole time you just had to bring the rubber to the road. Thus the IQ measuring G is correct both times. You had a 100IQ at age 24 and you had a 140 IQ at age 27 because you "brought it out" for the test to measure. The people with 60 and 95 IQ cannot or will not bring the angle grinder of their brain to the cutting surface, and thus their 140 IQ G factor will remain forever hidden, even though technically it would be there if they were educated and learned to bring it out.The IQ Test administrators win the exchange, look bro, it's a single layer neural net, if you can solve all of our problems, then you can solve any problem, and if you can solve any problem, you're a force of nature to be avoided or employed, and that's the entire point. Corporations want that and the test successfully filters for those who do against those who don't or won't. You're looking for weight lifters, and the test is to lift a weight. The IQ Test is a fortress and bulletproof.
>>533836984Free will in the popular sense is incompatible with theism. The Stoics believed that, while everything was predetermined by God, your assent to doing evil or good was only yours to make at that particular moment but depended on the particular state of your soul at the time. Chrysippus said that for a cyllinder to roll, someone had to push it (God), but it rolls because of its own condition (your character/your soul), which at the same time is predetermined by previous events (the person who built it, etc...)If you use that definition to explain "free will", then yes, it makes sense. What doesn't make sense is for an all-loving God to create billions of souls with the eternal objective of torturing then for eternity, that is an evil doctrine, in my opinion.
>>533837269You have to have faith that the information your getting is valid, and that your ability to think is valid. Both of those things you are taking on faith. How much of what your convinced is fact have you actually done the testing on? 0.0001%?Your entire world is based on faith and youre too stupid to understand. Yet still want to pretend you base everything on facts. You have about the intelligence of a large ape. You wouldnt know facts or logic if I shoved them down your throat.
>>533837448*dey's
>>533837381>40 year old that still believes in santa
>>533837486My point is the universe could be something some jeet wizard shat out in the cosmic streets, you can’t know that material is all there is 100%
>>533837406Buddy you're the one coping with a lot of ad hominem, all because you know it's a question you cannot answer. Go ahead and "move on", run away little boy.>>533837415>yours is not free>free will is God's willSounds like neither of these two wills you describe are in fact one's "own" will then. I don't get it at all anon, stop being cryptic and speak plainly please.
>>533837600St Nicholas was a real person anon lol
>>533837613I just refuse to converse with sub 80 IQ poojets. Stay mad Patel.
>>533836748I've watched every single Christian in the local church where I grew up die from different forms of cancer; lungs, brain, blood, prostate, and on and on. God rewards His slaves with tumors for their years of service; that is the final payout and, of course, the gratuity is endless spiritual attacks (God sends the good as well as the evil) and troubles. And there's no satisfactory explanation for why God needed to hang Himself on a cross to save anyone when He literally created the entire earth with just a few words. IMO, God places such an incredibly high value upon man's suffering that He couldn't help Himself; He had to come down here and experience it for Himself in the flesh. God is therefore both Sadist and Masochist. Life is NOT a gift; it's an obligation to suffer. And God knows who He plans to save well in advance of your decision to convert to Christianity. So, who knows if all your work for the kingdom (winning souls with testimony and preaching) will do any good for you? For all you know, you just performed spiritual CPR on a dead sinner who will actually have a seat at God's table while you get told that He never knew you!
>>533837609Whatever helps you cope with the absurdity of life anon.
>>533837735Nah fuck this life if there is a creator I will piss on him for making jeets
>>533837613It is a semantic argument; the only type that matter at all. I can't be much clearer. Your will is yours, free will is free.
>>533837655Statistically speaking, based on your flag I am more likely to be white than you are. Cope and seethe, fedora boy.
>>533837673>Life is NOT a gift; it's an obligation to suffer.>I was unpopular in high school and ive just rationalized my worldview around that
>>533835837You BELIEVE so, huh? Hahaha.
>>533837829>I can't be much clearerk bye
>>533837269If there is "nothing" when you die, then why is there "something" now? And... Why couldn't there also be something after death?Your faith is childish and silly.
>>533837673I can understand you anon and I hope God is truly good just and patient with us. I hope the best for you I truly do. I understand you a lot.
>>533835479Look up compatiblism.Essentially, "freedom" isn't the ability to exercise agency separately from metaphysics. It is the ability to make decisions without factors external to your being compelling you.God makes the being, who they are, what they desire, their strengths and weaknesses, and based off of that He knows what they will do. Other than the original origination of the human, they are given the free will to do whatever they desire. There is more explanation to this but I will wait for questions and challenges. I hope any engager does so with sincerity in finding the truth.
>>533837570>in my opinion.Why do you believe that freewill and predestination cannot both be equally true and applicable at the same time?God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He created matter, one of the aspects of which is time. His will is unfolding, whether you like it or not. Here’s the thing though, He will not force any decision on you. Your freewill will never be violated. I was predestined to be saved. Some would say that because of this, I choose to be saved. Okay.ORI have freewill. Some would say I choose God and He sees the choice that was made before I even begin my life. Okay.What’s the difference?God has predestined some to reject Him, to serve as an object lesson to others.ORThey freely choose to reject Him and He honors that decision that He saw coming.What’s the difference?You choose your path, either way.
>>533837407Hey JWanon, I hope you are well. I agree with some of what you have to say, but still in our previous interactions you've failed to show that the Bible is infallible revelation. Wish you would recognize that you need to work on your argument for that
>>533836440You people come up with the dumbest fucking bullshit possible then pretend like you're a big brain super genius. God I hate religicucks
>>533835479I simply don't believe in perfect punishment for imperfect beings. Purgatory is more likely for beings who are capable of change, unlike fallen angels.
>>533835479First, you mistake what God actually is. God isn't a separate entity, God is the spirit of everything including yourself that gives you consciousness. God is non-dual.Second, virtue and vice don't lead to heaven or hell via external judgement, but through the cultivation of positive or negative mental states which result in you, as a fragment of God, projecting your own reflection onto reality and suffering the results of your own actions and beliefs.When the Bible says "God wants this or that", it is personifying God, but God is beyond wanting anything, what it really means is that you, as part of God, desire certain things, like peace, love, happiness, and these things come about by certain consequences. But your mind is warring between an expanding mind (wisdom, love, etc.) And a regressing mind (ignorance, fear, hate, etc.)The final redpill is that heaven and hell are not distant places. As Jesus said, the kingdom of Heaven is within you. You yourself create your own reality and make it a heaven or hell right now.
according to the bible everything is predestined (nothing can thwart gods will)so christ cultists worship a schizo>>533837928matter cannot be created nor destroyed :)
>>533838249Jesus never existed dumbass. It’s a desert kike myth.
>>533835479>Is punishing people in Hell for eternity unfair if determinism is true?Dude, nobody is going to burn forever, the Bible is clear, people will pay for what they did, they will surely burn, but the eternal part is not the burning, but the destruction, the eternal darkness. There's no eternal life for those that are sent to hell. They will be destroyed. Eternal life is for those that are in Chirst
>>533838291>matter cannot be created nor destroyed :)[Gen 1:1 KJV] 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
>>533838308Jesus existed dumbass. Sodomy is not real sex.
>>533836529>God is not all goodGod is good, he just doesn't love everyone equally. And the Bible never claimed he did.
>>533838365>the jew book is true because the jew book says so!!your magic jews also said this planet was a dome lol
>>533835479>And how could determinism not be true if God, by definition, will have known in advance how his creation would unfold, yet still decided to proceed anyways?Foreknowledge of how someone will choose to use their free will is not sadistic. Like, I see a retarded ghetto nigger and I KNOW he will wind up committing crimes and going to prison. The fact that I don't put a stop to it doesn't make me evil. The only thing that makes no sense is pre-destination because it conflicts with free will. In that case god doesn't simply already know what you will do before you do it, he also forced you to behave the way you behaved, but this is all the root of several splits in protestantism and Catholicism/Orthodoxy, many protestants believe faith alone is salvific, others believe it's faith and your actions. It's not good enough to be a murderer who repents and finds jesus, you still chose to commit heinous crimes. One interesting thought is from Orthodoxy, where there isn't heaven and hell, salvation is closeness or distance from god spiritually when you die. If you are a non believer or commit terrible acts you will essentially exist as we do now, never feeling the embrace of the divine, if you are saved you will know closeness with God which is supposed to be essentially like a perpetual peaceful almost euphoric existence. It implies that where we are right now is as close to hell as we will get and punishment is continuing this sort of existence and never knowing god.
>>533838461
>>533838128Calvinism makes God the author of evil, thus it contradicts the notion of God being all-good. It's a self refuting ideology.>>533837957I understand this, anon. In fact, I'm perfectly fine with it, except for when we reach the afterlife aspect of things.If you created someone who was weak-willed, inclined to do evil and not repent from his actions or who was simply inclined to be ignorant and not care for the truth, why punish them with eternal torture when it was you who made them like that and you knew exactly what they would choose?Or, more viscerally speaking, why do the Buddhist grandma or your workaholic father raised in a non-religious household have to go hell and suffer eternally when they simply lived according to their God-given conscience?
>>533835479white men gave up their free will to the jew's god housands of years ago
>>533838344Sorry but this is cope. The most you can say is that the Bible doesn't clearly establish eternal punishment, which is true. But on the other hand, it doesn't clear state that there is NO eternal punishment.
>>533837890Why don't you try explaining how something can be both free and owned at the same time as you seem to believe is the case with your will?
>>533835479>And how could determinism not be true if God, by definition, will have known in advance how his creation would unfold, yet still decided to proceed anyways?My theory is that Bible God's control over this planet is very limited. His faction lost the godwars. Jesus for instance is banished here, as are all other gods from walking the surface openly.>Why would God, if he is all good, decide to bring forth a process that would essentially end up with the vast majority of souls being tortured in a place of unbearable torment for eternity?The simple fact is that Christian interpretations of the Bible seem largely extra-canonical. The irony is that by shutting out everything except the Bible they have no idea what is actually true or not, historically, physically, philosophically. I believe in reincarnation in the Buddhist tradition where other realms exist and your karma good or bad is expended in hell or heaven either for some finite amount of time. This in turn explains a large but limited number of souls, and gives a purpose to torment and heaven. Creation by all appearances must have a purpose since it seems to intelligently designed.>Universe where (considering that theism implies that determinism is true) the superior souls get to ascend into eternity while the inferior souls simply cease to exist?Yes? Technically/theoretically you can drop so low on the karmatic rungs that you can be reborn as an unintelligent spirit that just merges and divides with similar entities, like a disease. But this is so profane I can't imagine it being actually done. To persist indefinitely you have to warrant your perpetual existence. In a cruel irony, I see no other humans bothering to do this since most think they're "forgiven."
>>533838499>christcuck not very brightI already said all you abrahamics are cringe
>>533835608And abandon your family if you love them more
>>533835479The whole world has heard of Jesus Christ. So no one is ignorant. They deserve hell for living selfish lives. Now, it wouldnt have been love if God had made us automatons that love him by default. Love has to chosen freely and willingly. Thus, His creation is both good and just.
>>533838522>Calvinism makes God the author of evilAre you sure about that?>Isaiah 45:7>“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”No, the Bible says so. He doesn't DO evil, he created evil. God created all things. It doesn't mean he commits evil. Don't use shallow terms as "author", do you hate God?>thus it contradicts the notion of God being all-goodNo, it doesn't. God is all-good. It doesn't mean he loves everybody. All humans are inclined to do evil and if you violate God's law the punishment is death. He can punish whomever he wants.
>>533836529>>533838458I find it interesting that it is assumed that God would have intended for things to be only good. That assumes too much about God.Even ourselves don't design videogames to only win. You need to lose in order for the win to be real.Whenever I'm sad for having lost, I think that it is because of me that winning has value.
>>533838410The shroud doesn't match the biblical narrative
>>533835479I don't like to break it to you but you are already in hell.
>>533838762>God is all-goodYet created evil and allows it to fester
>>533838793>it is assumed that God would have intended for things to be only goodWouldn't that make heaven a bit redundant?
We have to get morality right, so that we can go to heaven and be in heaven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw10YGQMAO0
>>533838573>Sorry but this is copeSorry, but you're coping.>The most you can say is that the Bible doesn't clearly establish eternal punishmentLies, lies, lies, you're a liar. The Bible clearly stated death as punishment.>Matthew 10:28>“Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.”I think this is very explicit, isn't it?>Revelation 20:14>“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH, the lake of fire.”I think this is very explicit, isn't it?It's hard to take anything an American has to say, all you guys do is repeat what your satanist conman that calls himself pastor says. How can I take anything you say seriously?
>>533837673>There's no satisfactory explanation for why God needed to hang Himself on a cross to save anyoneIn the Old Testament God forgave literal unrepentant sinners just for the hell of it. The Jesus sacrifice narrative makes zero sense>"You have not brought Me the sheep of your burnt offerings...or the fat of your sacrifices, but you have burdened Me with your sins...Nevertheless, I will wipe out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:23-25)
>>533836529Stfu Esau, we know he hated you.
>>533838648>Technically/theoretically you can drop so low on the karmatic rungs that you can be reborn as an unintelligent spirit that just merges and divides with similar entities, like a disease.That's pretty metal. Did you extract this concept from elsewhere or did you come up with it?
>>533838839>Yet created evil and allows it to festerThis doesn't change the fact he is good, he didn't commit evil, lol. As I said, being all-good doesn't mean God has an obligation to love everyone equally.
>>533838793>I find it interesting that it is assumed that God would have intended for things to be only goodI never claimed that. God clearly has a plan, and everything was made to glorify Him.
We're going to need some A.I. assistence with these words words words.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoT-Ax4RMTM
>>533839114>I never claimed that. God clearly has a plan, and everything was made to glorify Him.Here:>Romans 9:21-23>“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?>What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:>And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory…”
>>533838762The verb for "creation" in Genesis (bara') is the verb for "fashioning something out of." Shaping raw clay into a pot would be the usual use of a verb like this. It's also used for the word for divine creation."Elohim" is a plural noun but there's a cope where it's "used to describe abstract concepts">>533839053I put the pieces together. Latin "Spritus" decayed into "Spriggan" and then "spren" as the fae use the word so frequently. The unintelligent spirits are the "thirsty spirits" described in the Tibetan book of the dead, one of the six classes of entity someone could be reborn as. It seems legit. I've said this before on /pol/ I want to double-check.
>>533839059>he is good, he didn't commitThis is anthropomorphizing God.
>>533839059>This doesn't change the fact he is goodI disagree. Killing babies seems rather evil. Standing by while children are raped seems pretty evil to me as well.
>>533835759I do think that most religions are self-contradictory and when you break them down actually just fall apart, but i also do believe they've been what's kept order and harmony in most societies, until recently, since most people are retards and can barely think. We've essentially exchanged Christianity with postmodernism and i don't think that was a good development. The theologians and clergy of old are the politicians and media of today. Especially the mainstream media editors, i don't see how they're working essentially just like the clergy of old.
>>533835479This line of argument always boils down to something like>If God is so good and so smart why doesn’t he just do what I think is right?You’re begging the question.
>>533839194>This is anthropomorphizing God.You're taking this from an assumption God doesn't exists and that we created God, but I assume we were created in God's image. Not the other way around. So no, it's not anthropomorphizing God.
>>533838522There are two questions that must be answered, Argentinanon.>1. How is punishing someone born into a secular society (or any society with the "wrong" religion) fair?>2. Is the creation of beings determined for eternal suffering justifiable while still being "good"?If you understand the answer to the first question we can move on to the second.Essentially, the way punishment can be justified is by informing the human somehow of what they need to do to avoid it. Revelation is one of the ways this is done, sending prophets with prophecy and books that describe exactly the things they need to achieve God's favor and avoid His wrath.>What about people born in societies without the correct revelation?In this case, a person is primarily judged by their adherence to their natural disposition as created by God. This natural disposition is a kind of revelation that comes in the form of what good is found in basic human nature. Sharing, telling the truth, helping those in need, charity, respecting elders, forbearance of youth, these are virtues found in most of not all cultures. The most important aspect of this natural disposition is that if belief in One God. Any departure from this natural disposition would be considered a sin, and disbelief in the One God would be the sin that earns you eternal punishment. It may not be justifiable to judge such an individual based on the rules and regulations laid out in revelation, which you may or may not have access to, but at least they will be judged according to what God put in their heart of inclination towards goodness.
>>533836903But by definition an omnipotent God can create a being he does not know the future of despite being omniscient. Perhaps it is like wave-particle duality where he is both omniscient and unknowing of your future and it is your lifetime of decision that decides which multiverse you end up in, whether that's the one where you go to heaven or to hell?
>>533839265>I disagree. Killing babies seems rather evilHe didn't directly kill these babies. He indeed allowed them to be killed. He has no obligation to save anyone and if he does it's out of his mercy. At the very least, these babies can go to heaven, because although they were inclined to do evil, they didn't do it.
>>533838978>Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in HellSo...Hell is a place?
>>533839408>But by definition an omnipotent God can create a being he does not know the future of despite being omniscient.Then he's no longer omnipotent of he loses omniscience and you just described him losing omniscience >>533839442>He didn't directly kill these babies.He did. He created them knowing he'd have them killed anyway. >He has no obligationTo be good either
>>533839467>So...Hell is a place?Yes, it will be a place I guess.
>>533839530>>He didn't directly kill these babies.>He did. He created them knowing he'd have them killed anyway.He still didn't directly kill them. If I know there's someone that's going to kill another person in Africa, do I have the obligation to go there save him, even if I know it will happen, or that I can impede them from dying? I have no moral obligation to do so. If I do it is out of my own goodness. You know, people die all the time, I don't go around trying to save them.
>>533839360>we were created in God's imageThe birds and the fish were also created in God's image but we do not assume God flies in the air or swims in the sea.
Long ago, God the Creator had no flesh body. Neither did his pal Satan, the Accuser. I think what happened is that Satan accused God of being unable to "speak" since he was incorporeal and therefore unable to speak in the manner of humans. God imposed his law unto humans.>"If you create a law and do not abide be it, you may be cast down." God maybe told Satan. "God is no mortal man, for he does not lie."I think this was the point of contention which made God decide to incarnate and Satan decide to remain incorporeal. Those two are bonkers, I try not to fuck with them. Everyone can get along, all we need is enough space to ignore each other.
>>533839642>He still didn't directly kill themHe did. He created the ones he sent to kill them. Commanding them to kill them.
>>533839679>The birds and the fish were also created in God's image but we do not assume God flies in the air or swims in the sea.Well, you accused me of anthropomorphizing God when I said he didn't directly kill them, how is this related to birds and whatnot I don't know.
>>533835479> christian, jew, muslim> all middle-east brown religions
In Satan's realm a small enclave abide by God's laws. The contest apparently is "who can be more evil?" The accuser? or the people of God?
>>533835479As regards your general question about Hell, this is a very Latin legalistic sort of framing and it is more a medieval 'innovation' based on Dante than it is patristic. The traditional account of Maximus the Confessor, which is still pretty mainstream in Orthodoxy, is that heaven and hell are not discrete places at all but rather simply the phenomenology of how each person experience's the same God's love in eternity, which is either beatitude/theosis or not depending on the soul's ordering.For Maximus the method of salvation is aligning your gnomic/deliberative will with your natural/god-will so that your tropic mode perfectly expresses your logos which is held in Logos who is Christ.
>>533835479>>533839906As regards how to reconcile free will with God's omniscience and atemporality, there are several ways:1. You can posit that God in his oikonomia has a kenosis in which he volitionally restricts his own foreknowledge2. You can posit that the kind of omniscience God has is with regard to the totality of modal space but humans freely actualize particular modalities, such that God knows all modalities in advance but not which become tropically actual3. You can posit that God's atemporality of volitional willing, where his will for creation was free but eternal and not temporally distinct from his immanenet and eternally self-sufficient will, is a model also for how human will works as viewed from eternity, which is to say that the moment of our final alignment or disalignment of natural will is known to God intrinsically and simultaneously to the rest of our life, but that we came into being with other modal possibilities of unfolding and God simply sees what we will choose because he is not a temporal creature who watches us step by step as a similar temporal agent.Compatibilism of this sort is easier to understand if you use general relativity. Imagine a singularity that two astronauts are falling into while andistant observer watches. For the two astronauts, they are genuinely free, they can hug eachother volitionally, time moves normally. From the distant observer, they are both frozen forever in the event horizon. And for the singularity, time ceases to be a meaningful context at all, but analogically we can say the world lines of the astronauts 'always' terminated in it and yet their information is perhaps preserved eternally in the event horizon as distinct from the singularity itself.
>>533839059God might be good, but he is not perfectly just, and thus he is not perfectly good as per his own establishment of what constitutes 'good'. Read up on Answer to Job, it's an interesting interpretation of God's paradox of morality (to very lightly summarize: If God was perfectly just, then why did he have to right a wrong committed upon one undeserving, and in a bet with Satan at that? Was Job technically juster than God for maintaining his faith through imposed adversity?)
>>533838839Whoa, you dont understand theology. God didnt create evil. Evil is simply the abscence of good. You think like a gnostic or an Asian. Learn Western metaphysics, kid.
>>533839947>As regards how to reconcile free will with God's omniscience and atemporality, there are several ways:Not really as God's will always supercedes yours. Your will is just as free as a prisoner in a cage
>>533840071>God didnt create evil.Which God? If we are speaking about the God of the Bible then he certainly did create evil
>>533839442He ordered them killed in the amalek story tho?? Jesus is simply evil, friend.
>>533839775>>533839716To even imply that God makes decisions assumes God thinks with a brain and makes choices according to some logic as we would understand it.
>>533840255>To even imply that God makes decisionsWhich God?
>>533840121Post where in Genesis it is said that He created evil? Evil is the absence of good. Evil exists in the world because 1. humanity fell and broke creation 2. humans choose evil. Evil in Western metaphysics has no positive ontological status
>>533839533So Hell is a place of burning that God will destroy the evildoers in...if the end goal is nonexistence...why bother burning? Why not just poof them out of existence?It seems to be that the burning is only meaningful if it never ends. Once you don't exist, you won't remember any suffering even if it was for billions of years. This isn't a very compelling view of Hell. It seems more accurate to describe true destruction of the soul not as non existence, but as hopeless, never ending suffering
>>533840076>God's will always supercedes yours. Unfortunately not in practice>Your will is just as free as a prisoner in a cageAnd it usually listens to the gaoler.
>>533840368>7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
>>533840255Imago Dei. However, God exists outside of time and space. He doesnt make decisions. He is is pure act (actus purus). Ipsum esse subsistens
>>533836074how can I feed myself for just $1.25
>>533840417>>God's will always supercedes yours.>Unfortunately not in practiceSo God isn't omnipotent in practice?>>Your will is just as free as a prisoner in a cage>And it usually listens to the gaoler.Which is God
>>533840433You read that wrong. That is about night and day, light and darkness. Not good and evil. You dont understand God. He is infinitely good and perfect ergo he could never do evil. Do you understand what perfection means? Then you understand God
God is both mentally sane (I hope) and can be understood by humans (theoretically, at least the angels). God has created entities at least comparable in some minor way to himself, like the Accuser, like the Beast. They're comparable enough for Him to simply delegate power unto while God himself is clearly absent.Perhaps God is more like us than we think, and watching humans crawl around is just a great past-time for Him, so great he wanted to get involved. Surely there are limits to God's power even if they are self-imposed. Do you like games? God surely must, if he created an adversary, the Accuser. The more complex creation is, the more it feels like a marvelous zoo, and the less it feels like solitary confinement. There's an irony where humans create and create and it only leads to more of the same old duplicated efficient buildings, and of course loss in biodiversity.
>>533840076> Not really as God's will always supercedes yoursYea but if God's gratuitous and volitional Will in Creation was, as compared to the immanent will which is necessary and eternal self-sustaining love, specifically to will a Love which was itself gratuitously unnecessary and contingent, which is to say a love which is freely given by God and freely returned by Man, then Man's freedom is itself a necessary predictate of the actualization of God's will, in ehich case denying man's freedom because one cannot conceive of the mechanism is to perform an idolatry by prioritizing one's own cognitive limitations over the Will of God which one cannot conceive.
>>533840368>Black doesn't exist, it's just the absence of light!!>Light doesn't exist, it's just the absence of black!!Neither is meaningfully tangible without the existence of the other. If something is good, then something bad can undo it. We call that something bad (absence of good) 'evil'. Potatoes potatoes, the semantics do not matter.
>>533839360>created in the perfect image of god>1000 years later>goes in a murderous rage you have a foreskinlol
>>533840584>You read that wrongNope>You dont understand my opinion about GodFtfy>He is infinitely goodIs circumcision objectively wrong?
>>533840682>> Not really as God's will always supercedes yours>YeaCase closed
>>533840464>Imago DeiI shower in the bathroom and eat in the kitchen. God creates in his image.
>>533840584>Christian simply ignores his god's clear words trying to add or remove meaning from it to fit his narrativeNever change
>>533840523you really think you're God?
>>533840798Try less strawman next reply kiddo
>>533840822You are the gaoler of your will though.
>>533840733> yea> butI agreed God's will was superior but said that this will includes our free will as predicate.
>>533840686>it's just the absence of blackPhew, black is simply the absence of light. You should have said darkness. Black and light arent opposites.
>>533835479the best and most obvious proof of no God is humanity. such a powerful and intelligent being created humans and that is the best he could do? lmao even
>>533840931ESL sar plas understand
I have never seen anyone on 4chan who had the slightest grasp on theology. I shant be replying to your mindless dreck.
>>533840071>God didnt create evil.Isaiah 45:7 says otherwise...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
>>533840844Cause and effect is>>533840919>I agreed God's will was superior>wasBut no longer is?
>>533840998What this clown really means is he can't handle differing opinions
>>533835608God made some people predestined to believe in him and doomed others making them more skeptical. He knew from day 0 who would be capable to genuinely believe in whatever he decided needs to be believed to warrant salvation and knew it would be an extreme minority and still followed through with creation fully knowing it would end with most people that ever created would be tormented forever in hell. God is directly responsible for most suffering in the universe. I don't think even satan ever did anything as monstrous as that.
>>533840993You think like a gnostic. Not someone who understands Western metaphysics, your erudition is non-existent.
>be me, yahweh>create humans, giving them the capability of sinning>they sin>pikachu face>punish them and their bloodline>realize what i did only allowed sin to multiply>this pisses me off because im retarded>send my son down, some 200k years later>my son is completely innocent>i tell him to die for them>somehow this is justice>its okay tho! I did this out of love, afterall!>by love he means creating a charade for him to annoint himself as the champioBig load of bullshit
>>533835479>eternityeternal punishment is not biblical.the scripture doesnt say there are those that have eternal life with God and God giving eternal life to the damned.one side lives, the other perishes, dead for eternity.
>>533835479>Wouldn't it make more sense to generate an Universe where (considering that theism implies that determinism is true) the superior souls get to ascend into eternity while the inferior souls simply cease to exist?Wow, congrats OP, yes, eternal torment is unbiblical. The soul perishing in the Second Death is biblical.
>>533841070If my will is to have a child who becomes a man, my child by definition of 'what it is to be a man' must be himself independent of me. If God's will is for creation to love it freely, the love must be chosen freely, which means the subjects must be free to choose love. Denying that they are free is to deny his Will. Denying they are free and therefore denying his Will because you think his Will mechanistically impossible is idolatry of human reasoning.
>>533838762The interpretive crux lies in the Hebrew words:“Peace” (שָׁלוֹם, shalom)More than absence of conflict—it implies wholeness, order, prosperity, and well-being.“Evil” (רָע, ra‘)This is the critical term. In many contexts, ra‘ does not mean moral evil (sinfulness), but rather:calamitydisasteradversitymisfortuneModern translations often reflect this nuance:“I bring prosperity and create disaster” (NIV)“I make well-being and create calamity” (ESV)So the verse is not necessarily claiming God creates moral evil, but that He governs both favorable and unfavorable circumstances.
>>533841225>If God's will>ifHow would you know exactly?>If God's will is for creation to love it freely, the love must be chosen freely, which means the subjects must be free to choose loveAnd if I choose not to love this God?
>>533841327>calamity>disaster>adversity>misfortuneAre a result of moral evils
>>533841070What's cause and effect got to do with you?
>>533841404Everything
>>533841394God is not the author of moral evils, you among many others wish to be authors of moral evils though.
>>533841436Do you make the sun rise?
>>533841123>try to tell people about Jesus>they laugh at you>hate you for it>dont give up on them>they ignore every word>they continue with their slavery>"no to jesus, im gonna watch space movies instead"they reap what they sow
>>533840584>Post where BibleGod says he creates evil.>I make peace, and create evil.>No! Not like that!Why do Christians ignore the word of God?
>>533835479because God isnt real and you fell for the retarded storys of moronic bronze age jews who really thought these dumb ass ideas had any legs to stand on.fact is the universe is unpredictable, its not an "on rails" experience and free will is absolutely real.
>>533841394so always remember that:>calamity>disaster>adversity>misfortuneIs a result of Adam & Eve thinking like you.
>>533841642>The Fool says in his heart "God isn't real"
>>533841493>God is not the author of moral evilsI disagree. Nothing happens without his will>>533841507I dunno. Maybe. It rises everyday I'm alive >>533841655>Is a result of Adam & EveWho created them knowing what they would do? God
>>533836984>Souls are eternal.not according to Jesus.
>>533841687yup it aint real and never was, you fell for a retarded idea from retarded clueless people so now you bow down for some brown shitskin.
>>533837673ask yourself why satan was able to offer all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus if he bows before him.
>>533841339> How would you know exactly?1. By definition: God is love and love by definition is not coerced.2. By scripture: Genesis 2:16-17, Deuteronomy 30:19-20, Joshua 24:15, Revelation 3:20, Galatians 5:13, amongst others3. By patristics: Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyons, Tertullian, Augustine of Hippo> And if I choose notThen whether you are saved or not can be known only by God and depends on whether your nominal rejection of God substantially represents an actual rejection of God's Love or an intellectual confusion of what God is that represents a kind of perfect ignorance while nonetheless you legitimately seek to follow you God-given conscience without conceiving of yourself as God.
>>533835479God knowing how something unfolds does not mean he is the cause of it. He gave us free will. He may know how we wil act, but those are our choices.
>>533837127>>533837369Your actions are known. Anyways we can have “free will” in a bubble if we assert that all infinite possibilities are known about by God but God allows humans to decide which path to take or timeline, logically there are paths that either end up in hell or heaven. You better hope you’re in the correct timeline.
>>533841863>God is love and love by definition is not coerced.But he does the coercion >>533841863>> And if I choose notStill waiting for an actual answer to this
luckily determinism is a false heresythanks for asking
>>533841627Your (and christian) thinking is based on the fallacy that people are "free" to make their choices. This thinking is the same liberal thinking that is used to justify importing millions of browns into your country. "Biology don't matter, if we train these immigrants right they will become euros". That's wrong and that's why Christianity is a liberal religion and inherently incompatible with real ethnic nationalism. Biology matters and it also controls if you like to read the bible more or watch space movie. Your biology was predetermined by god. Therefore, god decided before you were born if you're going to heaven or not, this "predestination" is even explicitly acknowledged in lutheran theology.
>WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOOOOOOD PEOPLE?How bad is it? Maybe they were shit people. Me? If life is good, keep living it. That's what the spacers do.
>>533841123Yeah so there is no point in worrying about either way because it's out of your hands.
>>533841725>I disagree. Nothing happens without his willIt is God's Will to turn our evil actions into good outcomes. All the evil that we've all committed is worked out for a greater good.Genesis 50:20 - "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.">Who created them knowing what they would do? GodYes, because He loves His Creation and He already knew how all of it will be redeemed no matter how hard our evil tries to twist & corrupt Good.Romans 8:28 -And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.You confuse God permissively allowing evil (for a short grace period) under His sovereignty as being his approval/authorship for evil.>>533841801you have to be 18 or older to post here.
>>533842183Either God chose you to go to heaven or he didn't, no point in worrying about it because there is nothing you can change about it.
>>533842221>It is God's Will to turn our evil actions into good outcomes.And nothing happens without his will..>>533842221>>Who created them knowing what they would do? God>YesCase closed
>>533835479If you respond to these dnc atheism threads early enough with a refutation mods will time you out, give you a warning, ban etc. But if they get to over a few replies they are left to fester.
>>533842221you need to have a functioning brain to overcome christcuck mental retardation.
>>533842061> But he does the coercionCoercion of what in what sense? Maybe in the antinatalist sense that we were coerced to exist in the first place, which I would reject for various philosophical reasons but at least is an intellectually serious line of reasoning, but beyond that I am genuinely confused what you mean.> Still waiting for an actual answerI have an actual answer: what happens to you is between you and God and depends on what you are actually rejecting and what you actually do beyond the nominal rejection of certain words that you think mean a thing they may not. I cannot say for certain any particular person is going to hell anyway, because as I said, hell is not a place but a mode of experiencing God's love depending on the ordering of the soul one has freely formed synergistically with God.
Since God is silent, why not ask Satan?
>>533842381>Coercion of what in what sense?God offers an ultimatum, bend the knee or perish >>533842381>> Still waiting for an actual answer>I have an actual answer: what happens to you is between you and GodGreat.
>>533842381>hell is not a place but a modeHell is real. So, too, Heaven and Earth. It is not a mode, that is gnostic baloney
>>533842453The rules God laid down are so generous and still I've only seen ONE flesh entity willing to follow them to the letter on this planet, "standing over the corpse reduction"
>>533842496>>533842453> Hell is real. So, too, Heaven and Earth. It is not a mode, that is gnostic baloneyWhere did Valentinus say anything like this? This comes straight from the greek church fathers and is not only mainline in Orthodoxy but also acceptable believe in Catholicism via the ressourcement movement and is often taught in the Eastern-rite Catholic churches.> Bend the knee or perishYou are taking one very particular Latin soteriology as popularly understood and simplified in Protestsntism as if it were the only or original Christian view.
>>533842623>The rules God laid down are so generousI don't consider an ultimatum generous
>>533842023>Anyways we can have “free will” in a bubble if we assert that all infinite possibilities are known about by God but God allows humans to decide which path to take or timelineAnd out of those infinite possibilities God already knows which one will be chosen
>>533842418Never even met satan, I've met other demons, some with the anglicized name, Jessica. These are sleep paralysis demons that visited me at night and pulled me off my bed to finger my ass.Also met a horse frog anteater demon. spider mannequins that hold you rigid by the wrists. and goblins that bite your head through the blankets.I take anti-psyche meds, but it doesn't prevent me from taking 5-htp before bed and interacting with these spirits that act on their own volitions.God and satan though are fictional characters to me.
>>533842137>Biology matters and it also controls if you like to read the bible more or watch space movieProof?Predestination is also biblical, not "lutheran theology." His flock listens to His voice.Your will is bound to Sin/Satan before being liberated by God. You are only free in accordance to carrying out the desires of your wicked/corrupted nature.>>533842289You haven't refuted anything in the post you responded to. Try again. It is good that moral evil is not ultimate but is ultimately overcome and ordered toward redemptive ends under God’s sovereignty.>but why can't we stop evil now?Everyone unsaved will go into hellfire. There are still many lost sheep to bring back into the flock.2 Peter 3:9 -9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.This is for His flock, nobody else.>>533842368My IQ is >140, I can assure you that I am intellectually superior to you. Intellect, however, is not what saves Man, so good luck to you.
>>533842720Well if you suffer, you suffer. Being "cast into the pit of fire" seems partially allegorical. Christians that suffer must be illiterate>ALL THOSE WHO LIE AND LOVE LYINGYou have to think like the God whose first books are "the Law." He's lawyer God, which makes sense considering all the authority he flexes in my experience is solely the arbitration of disputes. The Bible is so mundane here but in other realms it's like the nuclear option.>what do we do?>shall we open the book?>>533842953God and Satan reside on other planets and only scarcely touch ours. We have "the Craftsman." The inhabited worlds reflect the temperament of their rulers: Delicious irony, cruel irony, un-irony.The demons will play ball if you start engaging with them. Join up, "fuck around and find out."
Yes, but the Abrahamic "God" isn't real so
>>533835479What makes you think there's a hell? How about some references?
>>533843071>My IQ is >140well mine is 160+so yes you are retarded and you worship a shitskin. you actual IQ is more like 80 to 90.
>>533843096>Being "cast into the pit of fire" seems partially allegorical.It is a reference to Heraclitus' state of constant change. The 'lake of fire' is just another way to say 'embodies in the changing world'
>>533843419Even the angels live in some state of flux. They gain weight and lose it too
>>533837205That's not true. As an example: I visited my dad a week ago. On a parkikg there was a car with a 777 license. 10 meters further there was one with a 7770E. There were also two with 925. Different brands, age, etc. Not belonging to the same people. 10 minutes later, I wanted to follow someone on X, I was his 777th follow. My dad was driving, I was tired because I slept too little that day, I opened my eyes after like 3 minutes, looked to the rightbecause we took a turn in this direction and the second thing I saw after opening my eyes (beside the asphalt) was a big cross of the village cemetery. One week earlier I became a believer after I read the Gospel and didn't want to be alone living in sin anymore.
>>533843173Your IQ is not over 160, you type and behave like a redditor. You are anywhere from below average to midwit (85 - 115)
>>533843071>>533843173Come now, this IQ thing is embarassing. Sin of vanity aside, an unfalsifiable claim about a probably invalid internet test does not demonstrate intelligence and intelligence can allow for elaborate falsehoods as easily as simple truth. Intelligence in the abstract sense is neither wisdom not truth, but must be aligned with wisdom to seek truth.
>>533843500Are you Cathar? Didn't know you guys were still around.
>>533843632It wasn't an internet test, so good job bearing false witness.
>>533843691No, I'm with the demons. People swore they were real. People swore eternal life such was real. I decided to learn as much as I could. "Doubt is the path to certainty." As heretical as it sounds, I think it's true.
>>533843793I said 'probable internet test' which is a hedged empirical inference based on past experience, not a definitive authoritative statement of absolute nominal fact. That being said, apart from your own words, there is no epistemic warrant to suppose you took a real test or not, and in either case the rest of my statement holds: intellect alone does not guarantee truth, it must be igned in wisdom and oriented toward truthz and vanity about one's intelligence tends toward a lack of humility which has the dangerous effect of a tendency to reify errors by the powers of intellect rather than identifying and correcting errors which one has assumed as substantial elements of one's pride.
>>533843994What are you even trying to argue?A person is arguing that low intelligence = being ChristianI've debunked that claim by showcasing how God has granted me a high intelligence, while also saying that intelligence is not what leads to God.Are you sure that you've read the posts correctly?
>>533844220I did not say low intelligence is Christian, I said thst high intelligence does not guarantee Christian orthodoxy nor does the intelligence of a speaker in thr abstract confer unto their proposition a truth valence. One can intelligently be wrong or stupidly be right. Of course I would prefer intelligently being right, and God gave us intelligence for us to seek the truth. But intelligence can by pride create elaborate defenses of falsehood, and so appeal to intelligence of the speaker is categorically unrelated to the propositional truth content of their statement.
>>533835479Hell is too much. Let's hypothetically say that some guy kidnaps your mom, sister, daughter, and then rapes/tortures/eats them all, real slow over a few weeks, and then he posts the webms on 4chan. And then he does it to 420 more people. So now what? He's going to be rightfully killed by the public mob, or get death penalty, or at least life and prison, followed by death...and then...hell right? Into the lake of fire he goes! Burn burn burn! Scream scream scream! No dying! Just Burning! Ouch!!!! But here's the catch. You have to witness this guy burning and screaming. Could you do it? If so, how long could you do it? Surely for the first few seconds you'd probably feel really exhilarated and vindicated. YES! Die mutherfucker! But then it keeps going...after 60 seconds of you witnessing this torture...you might be like...fuck, just let the fucker die already...I can't bare to hear him scream anymore. Or maybe some of the more hardcore macabre niggers will enjoy watching him suffer an hour. or so..maybe even a whole day...but an eternity? really? The only way to deal with this is to turn a blind eye and forgot about the guy. Hell is too much. It's too much even for the worst of the worst of humanity. If it's really this bad, then why would God ever create people in the first place...unless he hate us?
>>533835479hell is faireternity is forever
>>533835479>Wouldn't it make more sense to generate an Universe where (considering that theism implies that determinism is true) the superior souls get to ascend into eternity while the inferior souls simply cease to exist?That's the way it used to be but they kept fucking around and talking shit so we had to let them find out and up the ante. The dumb motherfuckers always wanted to push and violate boundaries
>>533844413you've gotta be trolling me, "a person" is not referring to you, it is referring to the German poster.
>>533844455Eternal conscious torment is unbiblical. Eternal life is reserved only for the Christians. The mortal souls of the paganists perish in hellfire, this is called the Second Death.
>>533844455then fall for the roman catholic lie that hell is eternal.read what the it actually says.Revelation 2013 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.>judged according to what they had done>lake of fire>second deaththis clearly states that the severity of the punishment depends on your deeds and that it result in your DEATH regardless. its not eternal burning.
>>533844669>Eternal life is reserved only for the Christiansthe book of Life is open during the judgement of the Dead (people not in Christ).read the Revelation 20 quote >>533844697
>>533844669>liars>those who love lying>cowards>non-believers>pharmacists>idolators>murderersI guess if you equate "non-believers" with "pagans" then you could have something of an argument
>>533843863The word and concept of heresy was made up by Ireneus of Lyon.
>>533844875"If you're not lying, then how can you be a heretic?"
>>533844778I hope so.Because eternal suffering is quite scary.
>>533844813"The term pagan was historically used by early Christians and medieval writers as a pejorative label for non-Abrahamic populations"The only Abrahamic religion is Christianity (as Jesus Christ is the God of Abraham). "Pagan" is faster to type out compared to "non-Christian">>533844778I see, I imagine that one of the groups of people this would be for is the group of people who have not heard of Christ (like those who lived before His first coming 2,000 years ago) yet still possessed the kind of faith that Abraham possessed.
>>533835479The universe is a literal faggot. The archons scripted everything.The end.
>>533844697But what about this part?Revelation 20:10 KJVAnd the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Do Sodom and Gomorrha burn forever? Even for alll the fucked up sin they did, isn't eternal fire a little unfair? I mean...it does say the word "eternal". it's the same thing as hell to infinity.Jude 7 KJVEven as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
>>533845548"Pagan" was Paganus, -i, a Latin term for a country-dweller. That's because the cities adopted Christianity quickly where the country-dwellers held fast to the old religions.I'm more of a pagan than a Christian, for several reasons. First, my beliefs are so different from Christians that I can't even consider myself one of them. Being "in the fold" has its perks sure but I can do without them living more independently. Also, I have to live out in the country-side where nature is more abundant. Being too long in the center of cities bothers me.The Christian religion is basically a religion of the psychic vampires by now. They hate nature.
>>533835946its true, it is. and anyone who takes it seriously, like jesus, is retarded by association.
>>533835479This picture is a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of scripture. There is no strings. God does not pull strings. God does not interfere with free will. If you don't understand this and don't understand free will then you shouldn't be making any comments on anything to do with humanity.
>>533835479Yeah I agree. And honestly eternal reward or punishment based on ~80 years of life on this earth and you start with incomplete information seems disproportionate, unjust and illogical to me.The Buddhist cosmology makes more sense to me. This earth is the undesirable place to be. You get reincarnated over and over until you finally learn your lesson and become enlightened. Or not and just stay stuck in samsara forever. It's up to you.It respects human autonomy a lot more.
>>533845548it goes back to what Jesus talks about in Matthew 25.the people that gave food, clothes, shelter and visited brothers in Christ and by doing so doing it to him.basically people that helped in working out the Will of God without being aware of it. People in Christ ofc know what they did with the Will of the Father in their life.>>533845712ever and ever, everlasting, and forever is just a very long time.Genesis 17And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”well Israel didnt possess the land forever. they did for a very long time tho.>Jude 7Hebrews 12for our God is a consuming fire.Matthew 1015Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.Judgement day is the day of consummation by Fire since God is a CONSUMING fire. shit gets burned up, not burning forever.
>>533835479God knew Adam and Eve would fall and eat the forbidden fruit. God knows everything. He didn't stop the fall. He didn't send Satan into the Lake of Fire immediately after his rebellion but instead let him roam free in the Garden of Eve so he could deceive Eve. God let Satan rule in the end times. Sometimes I think God is evil. But if determines determines the course of time in 5 dimensions. Then determinism probably also determines the decisions of Gods. I am a compatibilist, but that is just soft determinism. We are just unlucky i guess. Also there is evidence to suggest that Hell or the Lake of Fire isn't forever but I don't think anyone knows for sure. What is even worse is that God is almighty and has the power to miraculously heal you at any time and do anything but still chooses not to.
>>533845787christianity was never some grassroots spread thing. jews targetted the king of the country they sought to conquer, theyd allow themselves to be 'defeated' to serve as pretense for allowing 80,000 jews to live in the capitol. those jews would work on dealing with elites by targetting the women and children. their cooperator in office would shoehorn jew worship as mandatory. jews would have them use the countrys coffers to spread these jew worship indoctrination centers all over the country. theyd attempt to brainwash the stupid, the foreigners, the slaves, the women and children.2000 years this formula has worked. reading john 3:16 to the sad schindler's list organ music, and apparently no christian, never even once thought about how ridiculous it is to worship a jewish rabbi as god incarnate.
>>533845829How can you have free will with incomplete information?Someone who happened to be born in a Muslim country and has only a passing exposure to Christianity has much greater obstacles to coming to the "correct" belief in Jesus that grants salvation than someone who happened to be born in a Christian country.As OP said most people aren't intellectually curious and have to work and shit they don't have the time or inclination to research different religions.It's not free will to believe in Jesus or not it's affected by chance and contingency.
>>533835479https://odysee.com/@Das_Syndikat:3/Chaoskampf-Donnergott:a?lid=202486f5bba9907a17239545830e09ad361a3189
>>533835479Yes, it is obviously unfair.I'd say it is even unfair to force a conscious being to exist as something less than a God.The only moral way for a conscious being to exist, is as a sovereign and free God.Conscious beings should never be playthings in stories or lore worlds.Stories and lore worlds are for NPCs to inhabit only, those without consciousness.What I've said is the Moral Way. It is the Law of Liberty which no false God of this world stands to.
>>533846167>ever and ever, everlasting, and forever is just a very long time.how long is "a very long time"...how many minutes/hours/days of burning and screaming and pain do we get if our faith in Jesus Christ wavers? It's too much. You are correct that there are many more passages that speak of eternal life, but I'm still deeply trouble by these other ones. How many minutes/hours/years of fire/screaming/pain did Sodom and Gomorrha receive as punishment for their sins?
>>533846491https://mythos-and-legends.fandom.com/wiki/Chaoskampfhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoskampf
>>533846537and of course if a conscious being wants to play in a Lore world, that's fine. But it is voluntary.
>>533846327determinism* God also let most of the world become devil mongrels.
>>533846558>did Sodom and Gomorrha receive as punishment for their sins?they all died in that instance. from their perspective it lasted longer than from ours. they were destroyed in a single night.Rev 209 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.I mean, how long will satan suffer for all his deeds throughout all history? it will be unbearable from his perspective.so how do you think someone will suffer for stealing, lying or murder compared to satan?
>>533846348The whole new Testament-old Testament thing is a masterwork lesson in the passage of time. The Ten Commandments were the only barebones commands passed directly from God, other than maybe Noahide law, but the Ten likely placed higher emphasis. A whole body of law developed around those commandments but that body of law was so questionable that it was basically disregarded by Jesus. Jesus knew the Old Testament law and obeyed it (by dying). Jesus adhered to the Old Testament law, but also the new covenant that God had in mind, which is truly the strictest interpretation of either. I understand at least why he would have wanted to leave and never return: too many laws. God himself shows up in Revelation and lays down the New Law, certainly after seeing Jesus interact with the most lowly and degraded of humans, for what? 26 years?I like God's latest edition but our "judeo-Christian" civilization is suffering from the same old problems.
>>533835479God exists.However, the Demiurge/Satan/Shaitan/etc are just copes trying to keep the highest divinity's hands clean of the suffering we experience in the Cosmos.The truth is that the All encompasses and transcends everything, including all apparent dualities - the good and bad.Trying to create a separate lower entity to blame makes no difference in the end, since the highest power should be able to sweep them away with no effortInb4:>the highest power is keeping them around to teach us moral lessonsIf that's the case the other entity is still redundant, the highest might as well be teaching us those lessons himself. The middleman changes nothing.>it's necessary for free willwhether or not free will exists, trying to reframe suffering as not being truly evil when viewed from a transcendent perspective also makes no difference. What we humans experience as suffering in this world still comes from God
>>533846863>perspectivehell is too much from any perspective, especially with the word "eternity" attached. I suppose you could say that only Satan himself deserves infintie hell becuase he's infinite evil and it all perfectly cancels out? But even one day of "eternal fire" is too much for even the most depraved criminal.
In Attic Greek the "aorist tense" exists to declare that a fact has occurred regardless of whether it was present or in the distant past. Why would they ever want or use this in 800+ bc? If there is a purpose, then the modern grammarians clearly miss it.
>>533837381Christianity's entire purpose was the dissolution of National/Racial identity & replacing it with belief/obedience to a foreign Jewish religion/God who hates gentiles and who wants to destroy us & our Nations
When we get rid of these Abrahamic filth the humanity will truly progress. Islam, Christianity and Judaism have regressed the humankind and caused unimaginable amount of damage to us.
I had an psychological analysis when I was six or eight years old. They said I was on par mentally with lawyers or whatever when I was that old. I forget what number. They said I only had room to improve. They called me handsome and anglo too, those were the days, when true professionals still worked. I can't find those documents right now but I'll keep cleaning, things just turn up in my shit-heap shanty.>>533848153If it works, it works. If it doesn't, something is wrong with it.
>>533847453anon, you realize even Christians will have go through the fire, right?1 Corinthians 3et each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.more bible references to fire and furnace:Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.Isiah 48:1010 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried[a] you in the furnace of affliction.Malachi 3:2-3 2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.[a] Zechariah 13:99 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested.
>>533846167Its your opinion vs that of countless saints and the Catholic Church, the authority on truth instituted by Christ himself. Hell is forever.
>>533848485not according to Jesus.sorry, but if your "church" cant prove itself with the Word its not a church at all.eternal conscious torment is good for selling indulgences however :^)
>>533848572No salvation outside of the Catholic Chuch.
>>533848412>each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has doneThere was an ancient metaphor for testing someone. When a slave was a bad slave, you tortured them until the truth came out. This was a nasty process, so it was compared to melting down a coin, to determine its true value, or metal content. Perhaps in a very charitable sense, everyone is going to be "melted down" to determine how true or not they are.>the Day of the Baphomets
>non-Catholics believing they are saved.Woe is them.
>>533847323The only value I've gotten from looking at the Cross, is to realize that I must accept responsibility for the evil of the world if I am to call myself God.I can't offload the blame onto a Demiurge.
>>533848644wrong, no Salvation outside of Jesus Christ.repent of your heresies.>>533848676its through hardships and afflictions that we are tested. God tests our faith contentiously. anything that is not from him is to be burned up in this life so our faith in Jesus Christ is pure as refined silver and gold.
>>533835479>the superior souls get to ascend into eternitythats literally heaven dude
>>533838172Remind me
>>533849124Yesss. I always think Buddhism depicts a clearer view of this with their nuanced view of karma.>Isolate others and you will be isolated yourself>be untrue to your lovers and your lovers will be untrue to you>murderers and the violent die violently themselves, in this life or the nextIt corroborates with Jesus' sermons nicely, and also resolved Christianity's dilemmas where "the good die young."There is also the Greek wisdom, "those who know the Gods well die young."
>>533835479>And how could determinism not be true if [a being] ... knows in advance how his [action] will unfoldBehold! When I release this pen from my hand it will fall to the ground.*drops pen**pen falls to ground*I, not gravity (or your puny god), caused this pen to fall to the ground by my foreknowledge, as my action resulting from my foreknowledge determined, and thus caused, its outcome.
>>533849124>no Salvation outside of Jesus ChristThen why did he found a church? His actions contradict your words. Since Christ is the Logos AKA truth itself, he cannot contradict himself (law of non-contradiction). There is no salvation outside of His church. Convert now or face perdition
>>533849422>there is no way to God the Father except through meIMO he proved his point in Revelation when he transported the Revelator to a new Earth but this defies the very human-centric view where Earth is alone. Someone else suggested there were other populated planets once long ago and he was burned at the stake by Catholics.
>>533849422the Church is the assembly of believers born again in the Holy Spirit who ALREADY been saved by Jesus Christ.Salvation in Jesus Christ first, then assembly in the Church of Christ.do you get that?
>>533849422btwyour pic clearly says MY Church. the Church belongs to Jesus Christ, not Peter.so cram your seat of peter and pope somewhere else. its unsciptural.
>>533849552>assembly of believersWrong, that is gnosticism. Christ left an invisible church for people to join? Stop talking nonsense. You are so ignorant it hurts. Christ didnt want his followers lost, he gave them an authority on truth AKA the Catholic Church founded by Peter.
>>533849607The Catholic Church is the ONE True Church of the Almighty Most High Absolute God.
>>533849607Yes, and his church is the one who can be traced back through apostolic succession all the way back to Peter. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Let me explain it plainly, those who arent a member go to Hell. They didnt want to submit, they wanted to be their own authority on earth. This is what Protestantism is. Thousands of denominations all contradicting each other, where is Christ to be found?
>>533849662>Christ left an invisible church for people to join?yes, did you not listen to what Jesus said?Matthew 1818 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[f] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”Dictionary: ἐκκλησία, -ας, ἡGreek transliteration: ekklēsiaSimplified transliteration: ekklesiaGloss: church, congregation, assembly; a group of people gathered togetherDefinition: church, congregation, assembly; a group of people gathered together. It can refer to the OT assembly of believers (Ac 7:38), or a riotous mob (Ac 19:32), but usually to a Christian assembly, a church: as a totality (Eph 3:10), or in a specific locale (Col. 4:15). In the NT a church is never a building or meeting placeA popular assembly, Acts 19:32, 39, 41; in NT the congregation of the children of Israel, Acts 7:38; transferred to the Christian body, of which the congregation of Israel was a figure, the Church, 1Cor. 12:28; Col. 1:18; a local portion of the Church, a local church, Rom. 16:1; a Christian congregation, 1Cor. 14:4>he gave them an authority on truth AKA the Catholic Church founded by Peter.Matthew 18 again proves that all believer have the same authority to bind and loose as Peter has.the pope is not scriptural and the Church is not a building.COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.
