The major points for politics in the west today1. No war but the class war. Pursuant to Lenin's outlined foreign policy. This includes supporting neither Russia nor Ukraine in their war, as both are fighting for capitalism.2. Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. For states other than America, repeal any law prohibiting closed shops, which are part of the UK and European Union. This is vital for organizing laborQuestions always welcomeDialectic reading group on /lit/>>>/lit/25245880
>>534264285Sorry but we only have a race war on the menu
>>534264285marxists r gay
>>534264662Used to promote dying for Israel
you guise actually being cereal?well whatever have fun i guess
Fuck your gay narxism. What men want is SEX.Is global sexual morality warped? Listen up, goyim cattle. Learn sexual morality.It is permissible for you to fuck a hooker. You can skull fuck her, you can even shoot a load up her tight asshole while cupping her tits.And you can do it while you are married!DON'T LISTEN TO CHRISTIANITY. Christianity was invented by sickitating homos.Don't even do the "temporary marriage" bullshit like in Islam. Just fuck the hooker.Fuck porn and only fans. We should open brothels everywhere.
>>534264796Sex sells but it doesn't alleviate labor alienation. Sex has never taken away my loneliness, it only felt physically refreshing
>>534264748Ehh, no. That's american culture, we don't do that in Europe.The brown scum your comrades welcomed will be killed, little buddy.Would you like fries with that?
>>534265020Shutup retard we have an acute sex shortage
>>534264285Average nu/pol/tard
>>534265140NATO has shed plenty of blood for wars for Israel.
>>534265184That's because you see sex as a good instead of a social relation. You commodify it and then complain it is is commodified
>>534264285https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtZuW8Fc_Y
>>534264285Lenin was a gay Jew who died shitting himself from getting assfucked all the time and Stalin was poisoned by Jews the moment he became problematic for them. kwab
>>534265307This post is MAGA Awooved. You have earned the Golden Paw of Orange Freedom. *presents medal and sAWOOtes you*
>>534265204Well my country is not in NATO and it is still being invaded. So you will get what you paid for. Red Golem.Can i interest you in a bottle of Red Wine?
>>534264285Marxism is politicial Christianity. Both sides get offended by this but it's true.
>wants le class war >also wants to fracture western civilsation across linguistic, cultural, racial and political lines Lmao oh don't worry, you are going to get a war
>>534265471Political Christianity is political Christianity. As Marx said, Christianity began as a Jewish revolt against Judaism and ended as returning to Judaism since it was built on the Tanakh.
>>534265478Capitalism is about atomizing western civilization. Capitalism started WWI and WWII
Hello gomrades! X_DDddDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of ebin revolutionary socialism and gommunism.Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.Wat exagtly is gommunism according to gommies:>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. X_-DDDD>Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :-DDDDd>To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all FUG. When capitalists run away we win and I gill you all. Eventually the fungtions of state stob and state becomes murderous and indistinguishable from other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people.https://www.gommies.gom/fug/https://www.gommies.gom/starve/GL uses philosphy of gib and starve, see here:https://www.gommies.gom/ohfugme/It is recommend you kill yourself so you can avoid starving.Resources:https://www.gommies.gom/ohshid/https://www.gommies.gom/1984/https://www.gommies.gom/guck/https://www.gommies.gom/probaganda/https://www.gommies.gom/XDDDD/https://www.gommies.gom/hiwherearethefood/https://www.gommies.gom/benis/https://www.islamiggommunism.gom/Da sdages of gommunism.>Sdage oneBourgers aren't allowed to vode :-DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.>Sdade twoWitheringAll beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary as beeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. (BENIS :_DD)>Sdage threeGommunism.No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.>Sdage 4Nod real gommunism. Nexzt gountry. problems werent. :-DDdd
>>534265668Your 4 step process has convinced me. I don't even like bourgers
>>534265612>capitalism startedno bad foreign policy started both world wars. stop the revisionism.
>>534265612Crying capitalism won't stop it. You welcomed invaders into my country. A neutral country that never had a colony, a country that suffered from British imperialism. But you still persisted. Because you are a band of bitter outcasts. And you're going to get what you ordered. Whether you like it or not.You filthy, unlikable, little jewish golem.
>>534265954Foreign policy exists to serve the ruling class, in this instance, capitalists. Lower level capitalists wanted to expand their markets, high level capitalists wanted to make a fortune lending money at exorbitant interest to finance the wars and produce all the weapons and supplies and rebuilding the wars required. No one, no one, no one opposed the war when each nation got involved, except communists
>>534265980Capitalists did because they handcuffed your unions and so it was legal for foreigners to undercut you. You are getting fucked in the ass by the capitalist class while blaming labor unions
>>534266150It was you little tramps holding refugees welcome signs on the street. You're not getting out of this.
>>534266100now you are obviously time-wasting trolling. Foreign policies exist to improve a state's interactions with other nations.
>>534264285The fucking state…
>>534266184It was capitalists making the policy. The financial times published an article even on why immigration was important because local work was unaffordable. You're taking your anger out on random students who don't shape policy and then using that to hate any movement that would actually give labor rights against scabs. Whom do you side with, those in favor of scab labod, or those in favor of steonger unions?>>534266192States are just gloves for the ruling class, they answer to the ruling class
>>534266184>it wasn't the ruling class, it was dumbfuck kids with signs on the streetfor someone from the superior race you are very stupid aren't you
And here you are trying to avoid a race war that you facilitated. Your comrades will be buried with the brown scum they love so much.Do you understand me?
>>534265668I've missed this pasta.Marxism and dialectics are retarded and the fools that follow them need to be given a helicopter ride.
>>534266334>>534266345Coincidentally, you have the same interests as the jews and the capitalists. You little rats. Look at you.
>>534264285
Communism would be cool if it was more aligned with what it's original creators intended it to be.
>>534266418What interests? Liberation of the working class?>>534266358you are fantasizing about some race war lol, I bet you get anxious during phone calls
>>534264285Everything you hate about the current system in America are, infact, spiritually communist policies
>>534266418My interests are in the OP. Do you hate unions having power?>>534266447Capitalist economics cannot even define what value is. The question you have to ask yourself is what economically creates different levels of scarcity. By your simple graph, all things would immediately be equal value because capitalism would produce them to meet the appropriate demand and there would be little distinction in price
>>534266542You're not against inviting cheap labor and welfare sponges into the west, are you? You don't give a fuck about the working class, you're scared of the working class.
>>534266603Lol they're spiritually worker control of the means of production?
>>534266619Why is cheap labor being invited in the first place?Why?Why?Because unions are not allowed to forbid scabs in their contracts. Capitalists have a demand for labor than can be better exploited and will look to satisfy that demand unless union contracts prevent it
>>534266617>Do you hate unions having power?Yes that's why I promote diversity in the workplace and globalist policies like large scale immigration.If a union does form I can either introduce the progressive stack to kill it from within like the Occupy protests or I can just replace my workforce with endless de facto slave labor from the third world.Hooray for leftism!
>>534266617If that's the case then why are you against deportations and a potential race war?You're not even antisemitic. All of your idols are jewish. You work for jewish interests. Goodnight.
>>534266757You are looking at the symptom, not the malady. The malady is that unions are not allowed to have closed shop because it is illegal in America and Europe
>>534266670They're decisions made on your behave by the state without your permission, for your safety. That is spiritually communist, yes
>>534266808Deportations are never going to exceed immigration, you are a fucking sap thinking you can vote and rep of the capitalist class who will ensure deportation exceed immigration. An absolute sap getting taken for a ride. The issue is that closed shop is illegal
>>534266861And communists drink water! Oh ho! Or vodka, only vodka
>>534264285Communism is dumb and gay btw.And anyone who thinks it's worth another go is either retarded or a complete sociopath. Marx was an imbecile when it came to Economics which is why not a single one of his predictions has come true. The only legacy of communism is 100 million deaths, many of those starved children. Imagine shilling for this nonsense in 2026. You people are either retarded or completely twisted, likely both.
>>534266907It doesn't help when you get your comrades to impede progress, like the kike and dyke that died for niggers.It's been fun watching you squirm, now i'm going to go. Red Golem.
>>534267130You don't read, you just watch YouTube videos>>534267139Amd a good Awoofternoon to you, Man of the Orange, sap supreme, MAGA pet
>>534265412Fag
>>534267275This coming from the "Trump is so BIGLY" movement?
>>534266842No you are missing the issue. A union only has power through its ability to limit the supply of labor. With large scale immigration you saturate the market with workers competing for jobs.Unions can't do shit if they can just be replaced with an unlimited supply of immigrants willing to work for less. And even then you have the diversity issue. Say your union was able to stage a strike to halt labor and put pressure on their employers. That won't amount to shit if the workers are diverse enough for a progressive stack to poison them into losing all cohesion. You can preach class war > race war all you fucking want but the fact of the matter is simply having a homogeneous society utterly undoes this flaw without having to fight an uphill battle against human nature.Marx was a retard and his "dialectic" to explain labor is so unscientifically asinine it becomes hilarious. When in reality its literally just chemistry via a limiting reagent reaction: Unemployed worker + Vacant job ---> Employed worker. When the limiting reagent is the unemployed they have greater value and the necessary leverage at the bargaining table. When the limiting reagent is the empty job you now have leverage in the hands of the employer.We already have the tools to fix things but it goes against leftist dogma therefore heresy. Marx tried to reinvent the wheel with a pile of hog shit and a rubber band. Because he was a moron.
>>534267412Unions could originally make contracts which forbade their employers to hire scabs in the event of a strike. Do you understand? If an employer is legally bound to such a contract then it doesn't matter how cheap foreign labor is
>>534267493>Still missing the pointAnd what leverage do unions have to use said clauses? Oh yeah, none. Because they are easily replaceable and companies can easily pull up stakes and move away. Unless such a contract is already in place no employer is gonna sign one. Ever. They would be throwing away their leverage at the bargaining table. With globalism and migrant workers they would sooner pick up shop and go overseas before signing such an agreement.You want to put leverage back in the hands of the working class? Crack down on immigration and DEI faggotry. Once the progressive stack ceases to be totally lethal to protest groups and migrants are kept out of the beaker the limiting reagent will once again be the American worker who will then have just enough leverage to be taken seriously at the table without spooking the rich assholes they are dealing with into fleeing the country.
>>534268038>Unless such a contract is already in place no employer is gonna sign one. Ever.If that were the case then why do they insist such contracts stay illegal?I think immigrants are absolutely brought in to disrupt the working class's unity. And I think it is working well on you even if you don't realize it
>>534266617>Capitalist economics cannot even define what value is. The question you have to ask yourself is what economically creates different levels of scarcity. By your simple graph, all things would immediately be equal value because capitalism would produce them to meet the appropriate demand and there would be little distinction in priceLol value is what people are willing to exchange for something.By my graph public desire for something and how available it is determines its value
>>534269411like how if everyone had a pokemon lizard card it wouldn't be as VALUable
I think communism is a decent way to enslave the people. Most people honestly deserve to suffer, and controlling the food supply through the central government will keep people on their toes.I would say I more or less align with communism.
happy may day comrades
>>534269411That's not a definition. It is a way of saying x has equal value to y, by observation, but doesn't say in what way it is equal. If I have a bag of fertilizer and a book of equal value, that doesn't say what the quality value is>>534269595Hurray!
>>534269704It is a demonstration of correlation. The y axis is price, nigger.
>>534269945Price is a measurement of value, it doesn't say what value is
>>534270716https://youtu.be/l_rbFhbcbT8
the level of emotion that rational discussion of communism inspires in rightists is very interestingthey desperately want to shut it down but can't articulate whyit seems that the brainwashing is much deeper and more powerful than i ever realizedthe cold war was just a great-power struggle between the russian and american empires, yet the boomers were told their enemy was "communism", not russiai am convinced now that the ruling classes feel more threatened by communism than almost anything else
>>534270633If something is valueless that means you're not willing to exchange anything for it. If something has value it means you are willing to exchange something for it. Money is a representation of value.What is your question?
>>534271669that's an oversimplification at best
>>534271669I know I am not willing to exchange for something valueless. That doesn't tell me what value is>>534271955Let's not even get into use/subjective value versus exchange/market value yet, because anon will not even be ready to distinguish them until he decides on what value he is talking about
>>534272205>I know I am not willing to exchange for something valueless. That doesn't tell me what value isWell, it looks like I can't help you.>>534271955>utility vs monetary valueCongrats about finding chatgpt
>>534272898I don't need your help. You mean that you don't know what exactly value is, which is fine.
>>534273508I've told you more than once.Economically speaking value is what people are willing to exchange for something. Money being a unit of measure.If you are offering some contrasting faggot commie explanation like "value is how much time I've spent writing a poem" or something feel free to share that.
>>534264285Ukraine is fighting to not be subservient to the Muscovites faggot
>>534273793This is like saying "light is what illuminates" over and overWhat is the property of something that makes it equal to something else? Or less? Or more? Just saying "value is what it can be exchanged for" is bullshit. Because you can exchange something for a variety of things, based on those things sharing an equal value, not on *being* a value
>>534273908Yes, and Ukraine is also fighting to be subservient to America capitalists. "Ukraine" here means the government of Ukraine, which just exists to serve the ruling class of Ukraine
>>534273929>What is the property of something that makes it equal to something else? Or less? Or more? Just saying "value is what it can be exchanged for" is bullshit. Because you can exchange something for a variety of things, based on those things sharing an equal value, not on *being* a valueAmazing. You can next ask me what love is while pretending to not be retarded. Then, if I tell you it is an evolved neuro-chemical process meant to strengthen social behavior you'll say "I still don't understand" and we'll be exactly in the same place.You haven't offered a contrasting point of view yet, nigger.
>>534264662jews won, goy.here's your menu, adolf-wanna-be: SEETHE COPE
>>534274431Love is not terminology. We do not mean "value" in such a sense as, "I value my friends" or so on, but as an economic term pertaining to markets. If you say, "in my economics, value is ambiguous idea, like love," then very well, but call it poetry, not a science
>>534274455fuck, this shit's gay.the menu:[x] SEETHE [ ] COPE
leftiepol is superior if you want serious discussion
>>534274536You still have not offered an alternative you animal retard.I didn't call economics a science. Nobody calls it a hard science. Nobody. Not even economists.When something has an economic value that means people are willing to exchange for it. What the fuck are not understanding? That is as simple as it gets.You have not offered a better definition. You have nothing just retard confusion.
>>534274850Actually reading is better than online discussion in terms of content but I don't come here for an echo chamber
>>534274984yeah but here im inclined to trøll i just cant take it seriously no rules
>>534274038this Ukraine is Capitalist lap dog
>muppet trying to drum up his dead general again
>>534274038
>>534274904I do.First you have "use value" and this means nothing more than something which is wanted, desired or needed. I am sure you understand it. It is required for market value but is distinct from it. Air for example has extreme use value but no market valueExchange value, or market value, is when an object takes on a form of representing something other than itself. A perfect example of this is fiat money: zero use value but clear exchange value. So what is this something that money or commodities represent? Socially average labor. That is, the average amount of labor a commodity takes for society to obtain or manufacture. This labor does not mean the labor that went into that particular thing--after all, $100 is as easy to print as $1, but the *average labor* required by society for one is a hundred times more
>>534265668>ctrl+F gomrad-All is well in the world.
>>534275145So is Russia though atm. It is just two camps of capitalists sending proles into the mean grinder for their profits
>>534264285kill yourself
>>534275222go back to your nazi thread and seethe about it lmao we are eating good
>>534275295for a EU pipeline is the ultimate capitalist planthus the midan opperation, russia's camp is only mad because they didn't get cut.How much is a slav's life cost these days, stop playing into their hands?The dead don't get any share of a pipeline through their land
>>534275238>Socially average labor. That is, the average amount of labor a commodity takes for society to obtain or manufacture. That's retarded.If it takes me 5 hours to make a chair and it takes you 5 hours to make a chair that doesn't make them equally desirable or of equal quality.If the global chair supply crashes chairs will become briefly more valuable.Just because you and your friends are inefficient doesn't mean your work is more valuable.
>>534275447Neither will the living unless they're the capitalist class
>>534275503Note: they aren't there on the front linesjust the working class
>>534264285>guys were le winning ground on /pol!I wish you faggots would fuck off and die. Your constant need for attention like laziness is a positive trait is fucking embarrassing.
>>534275499Additionally, cost of labor and materials is not an alternative to capitalistic valuation. That's included in most pricing.
>>534275599they are though
>>534275499Each chair's value has nothing do with either of our labor but for the average labor society must expend to make chairs of similar qualityIf the supply crashes it will because of one element or other being more difficult to produce or obtain, i.e. taking more socially average labor>Just because you and your friends are inefficient doesn't mean your work is more valuableThis is a strawman I went out of my way to address which Marx himself talks about at the beginning of capital.I will repeat it once more: the labor value of something is the SOCIALLY AVERAGE amount of labor it takes to create or produce or harvest or obtain, not the labor power or time it took individually. Bug the average (I hope you know that word) labor it takes for society
>>534275640>I think you’re mistaken. The second you stop brigading a place with free speech your retarded politics fall apart because they get raped by open criticism.
>>534275629Capitalist production requires a degree of unpaid labor, otherwise there would be no profit. The materials are labor, they come from labor and nowhere else. The labor is obviously labor. And the product itself is only valued by all that labor added together in a socially average sense
>>534275372>nazi thread>this thread
>>534275769no it just gets annoying and disrespectful
stay mad and seethe though I love that
>>534275962>Again you don’t have to be here faggot. All of Reddit exists or whatever safe space you need to janny opinions that aren’t strictly left wing fluoride brain politics.
>>534276027>epstein class bot comes to defend their Mongolian underwater basket weaving forumthere's a whole board my dude, plenty of Jesus thread for ya
>>534275543It's WWI trench shit all over again
>>534276077More faggotry. Get aids and die like a good Marxist.
>>534276209I don't have to try you guys are paid to spray it on everyone
>>534264662Based
>>534276027>sharting noisesWhat is that smell?
>>534267130>Imagine shilling for this nonsense in 2026.yet university of california is still churning out marxists by the boatload even now
>>534276454>universityyour degree holding superiorsthe ones that fill leadership roleshmm, odd
>>534269945that joke really hits me in the feels
>>534275714The chair itself becomes more difficult to obtain.That's supply and demand.Ok, let's say marx is correct about his labor value theory - ok now what happens if the grain supply has been destroyed following harvest? 10% left. It is just as easy to produce as ever. More difficult to obtain. Price goes up.That's supply and demand market forces.
>>534276359not at all really
>>534276581it is our silo comradethere is only our supply
>>534265249>That's because you see sex as a good instead of a social relation. You commodify it and then complain it is is commodifiedMarx and dialectic cuts both ways fren.You are correct in treating sex as a social relation. But, dialectically speaking, social relations are also states of being, that themselves can be treated as means to an end, and thus are also valorizable goods. It goes without saying that there will always be a segment of society that will always commodify sex, and both men and women participate.Furthermore, are you really expecting /pol/tards to be capable of self-reflection and self-criticism? The is the place where the sneed joke was popularized and turned into a boobytrap for anyone careless enough to take the bait of treating it seriously. The same thing is true of /pol/'s heroes like Sam Hyde and anyone that asks him about Marky. Don't expect memesters to be capable of reflection or any sort of conscientiousness.
>>534276581If 90% is destroyed it is immediately makes the socially average labor required for the last harvest was only 10% as productive. So say for example a community digs ten wells, but nine go dry. The socially average labor required to dig that one well factors in the labor taken to dig the other nine, since ten wells had to be dug to yield one good well. Hence the exchange value of that 10% wheat is the socially average labor required to obtain it. Now more wheat can be produced more easily in the future but until it gets to marker, the exchange value reflects the socially average labor of the current wheatMarx actually talks about this sort of thing at length
>>534276581Marx never denied that supply and demand effect price. But pice over time will tend towards value which is socially necessary labour time.
>>534276813Of course, capitalism will commodify more and more, even friendship (networking). Sex will continue to get more and more commodified, not less, but the problem is that those frustrated are not frustrated that sex is commodified so much that the market value for it seems excessive, and are confused and upset when they see people having sex as a social relation with no commodification involved, which will happen less and less and less
>>534266603>something is spiritually communistYou are trying to smuggle pure aesthetic assertion as a logical consequence. You're not even trying to make a case for why what you think you hate is communist. Go back to posting shitty memes on plebbit and let the adults talk.
>>534276655looking forward to starving to death >I have had occasion to respond to emigre Ukrainian nationalists who keep trying to convince America that “communism is a myth; it is really the Russians who are seeking world domination, not the communists” (and, indeed, it is “the Russians” who are supposed to have seized China and Tibet, as is stated in a law passed by the U. S. Senate three decades ago, and still on the books).13 Communism is the kind of myth of which both Russians and Ukrainians got a firsthand taste in the torture chambers of the Cheka from 1918 onward. The kind of myth that confiscated even seed grain in the Volga region and brought twenty-nine drought-ridden Russian provinces to the murderous famine of 1921–22. The same myth that later thrust the Ukraine into the similarly pitiless famine of 1932–33. As common victims of the communist-imposed collectivization forced upon us all by whip and bullet, have we not been bonded by this common bloody suffering?
>>534268038>companies can easily pull up stakes and move away.They won't if it's too expensive for them to do so, and if they have to pay higher taxes or tariffs for leaving. Some capital goods literally cannot be moved, like railroads, power lines or or nuclear power plants, or even small shit like an oil field or a farm. You say you hate communism and cooperation because you are a contrarian butthead, you hate people and nobody likes you; why else would you be posting on 4Chan on a Friday night in mid spring?
>>534264285>Dialectic reading group on /lit/>Less than 20 postsSad! But then again /pol/ responds to the bait instead of ignoring this thread like it should, so I guess it is we who are sadder.
>>534276980>If 90% is destroyed it is immediately makes the socially average labor required for the last harvest was only 10% as productive.The effort isn't changed retroactively.It can take 10 years of average labor to create a useless thing.
>>534264285so did the mayday useful idiot jump off the bridge yet, or nah?
>>534277646Things with no use value have no exchange value, it doesn't matter how much labour was put into making them.
>>534277646The average labor has in fact changed, yes. It means it took ten times the average labor of society to produce wheat as it did. The labor itself has not diminished but the wealth yielded by that socially average labor has. It can take ten years of socially average labor to create a useless thing but like Marx says, social labor only creates exchange value when producing what has use value. Pouring labor into something with no use value will not make it a bearer of exchange value
>>534277983I'm saying labor does not directly determine value.Labor can be wasted.Useless things can have value. Collectable items for example.
>>534277998>The average labor has in fact changed, yes. It means it took ten times the average labor of society to produce wheat as it did.OK - let's say that it does. The weather changes the value of your labor. Meaning your labor isn't the source of value the supply is.Thanks nigger.
>>534278160for one, a collectible can have some use value: If an object satisfies a human want—including the desire for prestige, aesthetic pleasure, or social signaling—that is its use value.Secondly, Marx says that price deviates from the LTV for rare items due to extreme scarcity. Again, Marx didn't deny supply and demand could effect price. But over the long term price will migrate towards Socially necessary labour time.
>>534264285absolute state of nu/pol/
>>534278160Usd value doesn't mean useful like a tool in Marx. It means wanted, desired or needed. >>534278274Labor in Marx never operates in a vacuum but always in synergy with nature, which is the energy and motion and change of the natural world. Weather can change the output of labor just like tech can. This doesn't change the "value of labor" rather it can make it take less labor to produce a certain commodity, or more labor, meaning that commodity is less or more valuable. Shitty weather that destroys 90% of the wheat means that the wheat signifies tenfold the labor it did before, because the same amount of socially average labor only produces 1/10 the wheat
>>534277646>It can take 10 years of average labor to create a useless thing.It can also take 10 years of average labor to create tons of useful things yet take 10 seconds of an adverse action to ruin nearly everything before it gets to market. Russia was producing more oil than the US 10 years ago; to say producing means not just extraction from the ground but also the ability to store and finally deliver to the point of use. Now America produces more oil, because it can not merely extract but also refine and deliver to the point of use. Your market share depends only on your ability to deliver.
>>534278274Once again, supply and demand can affect price. That doesn't change the longer term average price of wheat, which reflects the SNLT.Let's take another example. A fisherman fishes a lake. He gets what is called a certain Catch Per Unit Effort. If the ecosystem is degraded over time, the CPUE goes down. It now takes more effort for each fish. The value of the fish goes up.
>>534278368Tulip mania is a good example of this. The scarcity of tulips made thr market drastically over appraise their value (the socially average labor required to produce them) and the discrepancy between this appraisal and reality eventually caused a crash. Less drastic instances of this are called "market corrections" wherein a discrepancy between market appraisal of labor value and actual labor required, is suddenly fixed
>>534278525it seems that in this specific case, the labor required to put a barrel of russian oil to use has become higher than the labor required for an american barrel due to sanctions, which are ultimately a low-intensity military intervention
>>534278585many such cases
>>534278460>weather can change the output of labor just like tech can.ok thanks >weather that destroys 90% of the wheat means that the wheat signifies tenfold the labor it did before>This doesn't change the "value of labor" rather it can make it take less labor to produce a certain commodity, or more labor, meaning that commodity is less or more valuableOk an old computer is worth more than a new one since manufacturing process has become more efficient?
>>534278846An old computer is worth less than a new one because the manufacturing process has become more efficient. It represents less labor than it used to
>>534278527>Let's take another example. A fisherman fishes a lake. He gets what is called a certain Catch Per Unit Effort. If the ecosystem is degraded over time, the CPUE goes down. It now takes more effort for each fish. The value of the fish goes up.How is that different than supply and demand?
>>534278846Value is determined by the labor required for reproduction, not production.If technology improves and a computer that used to take 100 hours to build now takes 10 hours, the value of all such computers—including the ones built 10 years ago—drops immediately to the 10-hour mark.
>>534278922>An old computer is worth less than a new one because the manufacturing process has become more efficient. It represents less labor than it used toOk so do you determine what the labor is worth?
>>534278965He may get just as many fish to market, but it takes him more effort, so the price goes up (the SNLT for each fish has gone up)
>>534278965What limits supply. Where does supply come from. Why is there often a shorter supply of something that has a higher demand
>>534278717The US controls the medium of exchange, the petrodollar, which is in its own sense the political and military control of the source of value.This is the ability to secure energy and control what a person can do to be able to bring a product to market, and for which to be able to command a desired price.>>534278922>An old computer is worth less than a new one because the manufacturing process has become more efficientI would argue the opposite: certain ThinkPads that are over a decade old are worth more than their comparable counterparts from other countries only for the fact that they can run fully audited and Libre sourced software, from bios to apps, including the networking stack; part of its value is due to the rarity of that one's characteristics, but these emerge because of its specific utility as a computer that runs this way. Primordial value always emerges from utility and servicability for a given purpose.
>>534279035Labor rather determines what a commodity is worth.
>>534279030>If technology improves and a computer that used to take 100 hours to build now takes 10 hours, the value of all such computers—including the ones built 10 years ago—drops immediately to the 10-hour mark.They are all of equal value regardless of condition? So all computers have the same value? Or when new technology improves manufacturing that development time gets bundled into the value of the new computer.It isn't that one is just better?
>>534277202>>534266861
>>534279075ThinkPads might be old but they still seem to take more socially average labor to built than their counterparts, by market estimation, due largely to those qualities
>>534279062>He may get just as many fish to market, but it takes him more effort, so the price goes up (the SNLT for each fish has gone up)So being slow at work creates value?
>>534279112One is often better but even if it were not, even if it were the same, more efficient manufacture would still make the price decline
>>534279110Ok so all labor is of equal value regardless of skill?
>>534279191Individual labor is not socially average labor. This has been explained over and over to you but you ignore it because it offends your religious beliefs in capitalism
>>534279235Do you know what the word *average* means, Professor?
>>534279214>One is often better but even if it were not, even if it were the same, more efficient manufacture would still make the price declineYes, improved manufacturing allows for more aggressive pricing.You want a computer someone worked hard on or do you want one that is better?
>>534279112A machine loses value in two ways according to Marx:Physical Wear and Tear: It breaks down over time.Moral Depreciation: Even if the old computer is in a sealed box and works perfectly, it loses value because its "use value" has been surpassed by newer, more efficient machines.If a new computer can perform 1,000 times the operations in half the labor time, the "labor-saving" potential of the old computer has vanished. Since value in LTV is tied to the ability of a commodity to be exchanged for other products of labor, an obsolete machine represents "wasted" labor that the market no longer recognizes as "socially necessary."
>>534279298 labor value refers to socially average labor, not an individual's. Is this concept really hurting your brain?
>>534279263>Individual labor is not socially average labor. This has been explained over and over to you but you ignore it because it offends your religious beliefs in capitalismNotice I was responding to someone who used an example of individual labor. Note the question you ignored.
>>534264285this thread belongs in /lit/begone, shoo
>>534264285well i ain't doing no fucking labor ok? but I still want my equal slice of the pie ok? good! now go home and get your fucking shinebox proletariat, lmao
>>534279075YOu're talking about a non-reproducible historical artifact. The argument here is similar to collectibles. It exits the standard LTV framework for reproducible commodities and enters the realm of monopoly pricing, where value is driven by extreme scarcity and the status it confers, rather than the labor time required to build it.
> MarxismI can't believe there are still people who believe in such despicable ideology.It's not that capitalism is bad. it's just that some countries can't manage it effectively.
>>534279349He used "he" in a general sense of the "average worker", a theoretical measure, not a particular person, and if you have any doubt you can look at the acronym he used: SOCIALLY (average for society) necessary labor time.
Where do I have my right to question my own authority at Marxism?Exactly, as is you are for me,object For DAS GRÜNDNORM: No law {.oB} about Pursuit of Happine[s](s), ie|,The Right of Chapter 8 Of Norwegian Concession of What does Surmount For Not Merely a Peculiar Character for Proper Radioactive PropaneWe just need to steal or make the Hazmat made by Russians silently poisoing them with asbetos in the fucking airplane because from inside there the turbines make untraceable by any fucking standards of traceableness they already cannot have.
>>534279285Sorry, I didn't realize that it was forbidden to assess the quality of an individuals' or a groups' labor.Surely though if labor is the corner stone of your philosophy you should probably be precise in your measurements.
>>534279191Yes, as said here >>534279263I should have been more clear that it is not the individual case that matters. Let's say that the decline is across all the cod fisheries, but at first the cod fishermen are able to get the same amount of fish to market, so there is no change in supply or demand, but price goes up because CPUE goes up or, SNLT goes up to put it differently
>>534279402who are these types of cartoons aimed at? you gotta be mentally crippled to believe such things.
>>534279382>well i ain't doing no fucking labor ok? but I still want my equal slice of the pie ok? good! now go home and get your fucking shinebox proletariat, lmaowhat did marx say about people like this? i know the russians and chinese just purged them, but i suspect marx was less barbaric
>>534279304> the marketNice.That's the exact same thing as the market.
>>534279424>He used "he" in a general sense of the "average worker", a theoretical measure, not a particular person, and if you have any doubt you can look at the acronym he used: SOCIALLY (average for society) necessary labor time.Oh shit sorry, the acronym.Yeah so inefficiency creates value?
>>534279464>>534279583you're doing that thing where people intentionally misunderstand the point and act smug about it
>>534279472*CPUE goes down
>>534279472Ok thanks.So the ideal marxist economy is one that barely functions at all
>>534279583Labor creates value. Commodities bear the value the labor required to create them. So yes, the reason your clothes are so inexpensive today compared to hundreds of years ago, is because they take much less labor to manufacture
>>534279629Ok let's say what you're parroting isn't retarded.Why is the value of a thing - as measured by some type of fluctuating labor measure - somehow better than the value of a thing being determined by what people will give you for it?
>>534279730What people will give you for it is stuff that bears value, that is to day, represents socially average labor.
>>534279689>Labor creates value. Commodities bear the value the labor required to create them. So yes, the reason your clothes are so inexpensive today compared to hundreds of years ago, is because they take much less labor to manufactureNo. Labor does not create value.My clothes are less expensive than they might have been 200 years ago because machinery has improved and third world shit lords work in toxic conditions for low wages.In addition competition is higher for low range consumer goods through the global markets. Notice how some clothes are still expensive.You are literally retarded.
>>534279764>What people will give you for it is stuff that bears value, that is to day, represents socially average labor.No - my pokemon lizard card represents very little labor.
>>534279648I'm assuming you're equating value with wealth. If everyone works less hard, the economy produces fewer total items (fewer shoes, fewer houses, less food). Even though each individual item is now "worth" more labor hours, there is less physical "stuff" to go around. Society has become "value-rich" but "use-value poor." You might spend all day working for a single loaf of bread; that bread is "valuable" because it took all day to make, but you are still hungry. So no, while the value (expressed in labor hours) of the items goes up, the total wealth of the society goes down.
>>534279854We already went over collectibles here>>534278368here>>534278585and >>534279388
>>534279888Ok so value goes up independent of utility.What if I have tasty bread instead of generic bread? The bread doesn't become more useful.It just becomes nicer. Does my nicer bread go up in value?
>>534279832The cost of clothes declined long before "le heckin third world industrialized ahh help me I'm going insane". They declined in cost considerably with the industrial recolution in the west and were primarily made in the west until after WWII>>534279854It did not require much labor to produce, but I already covered this entire issue with money. The question is not how much labor went individually into an object but much socially average labor it takes to obtain
>>534264285Malicious envy is just as sinful as greed, atheist man pretending to be a woman.
>>534279996Sorry I must have missed that thing one of you wrote retardedly.Ok so value is based on utility also so not just labor. Why didn't you say so.How do you determine who gets one? I assume you're not using money.
>>534280001>>534278460>Use value doesn't mean useful like a tool in Marx. It means wanted, desired or needed.Do you have the memory of a goldfish?
>>534280001Does your tasty bread take the same effort to produce as generic bread? If so you can sell it at the same price and slowly drive the makers of the generic bread out of business
>>534280025>The cost of clothes declined long before "le heckin third world industrialized ahh help me I'm going insane". They declined in cost considerably with the industrial recolution in the west and were primarily made in the west until after WWIII mentioned machinery retard.>It did not require much labor to produce, but I already covered this entire issue with money. The question is not how much labor went individually into an object but much socially average labor it takes to obtainSo to buy? Not produce.
>>534264796This is no different than using drugs.Imagine believing fucking whores can "fulfill" anything.
>>534280078I hadn't read your earlier scam post.Ok so how useful a thing also determines what it is "worth" along with labor not only labor.How do you get it then? The factory gives you one each?
>>534264285Happy May Day comrade I hope you had a nice day today
>>534280134>Does your tasty bread take the same effort to produce as generic bread? If so you can sell it at the same price and slowly drive the makers of the generic bread out of businessWe're back in capitalism
>>534280208They didn't.
>>534280074Exchange value and use value are distinct. Exchange value however requires use valueThe issue with the collectibles is that the market appraises them as taking x socially average labor to obtain. That doesn't mean that much labor went into their production. It is a fetish. $100 takes just as much labor to print as $100 but the market appraises the socially average amount of labor required to be considerably different to gain one versus the other, which is why they bear differing exchange values. The trading cards are nust an extension of this sort of market appraisal, which can cause problems when it has to meet reality suddenly. If for example things collapsed and all paper money became worthless because there was no state taking it for payment
..... CONFLICT is necessaryto achieve COMMUNISM .....https://youtu.be/UoqH4DYdqO8
>>534280223We never left capitalism in this discussion.
>>534280331Ok great - I thought you were trying to tell me how marxist labor value theories weren't useless.
>>534280157You don't "buy" money unless it's foreign currency. Obtain can mean discover or other things as well. These cards that are valuable are hidden in many caches, like historical artifacts or what have you, and finding them is the labor being factored
>>534280206Use value is qualitative, exchange value is qualitative. Use value is required for exchange value but the latter is what the market is appraising. Merchants do buy shit based on what they themselves need or want
>>534280208I did, much obliged
>>534280247As *$1
>>534280247>The issue with the collectibles is that the market appraises them as taking x socially average labor to obtain. That doesn't mean that much labor went into their production.Ok so money.>If for example things collapsed and all paper money became worthless because there was no state taking it for paymentMoney doesn't depend on a state.Money is a way of representing a divisible value. So if I want a chicken and one of your cabbages we have a tool for managing that transaction. I can trade my goat for 4 buttons and give you one of them and another to your cousin for the chicken.
>>534280392>finding them is the labor being factoredhaha ok so the guy who you get the card from ask how much time you spent looking for him?
>>534280572Money doesn't theoretically depend on a state although really fungible money does depend on a mint that is regarded as authoritative. But fiat currency completely depends on a state and becomes worthless without it
>>534280628Socially average, lil goldfish. Not individualBut like you suggest, estimating socially average labor here is extremely fuzzy. Which is why these sorts of items can never have much in the way of liquidity
>>534280746>Spanish coins, particularly the 8-real piece (Spanish dollar or "piece of eight"), served as the primary currency in the American colonies and remained legal tender in the United States until 1857I'm not going to argue with you that the value of money can change. I think that is self evident.
>>534280845The coin depended on an authoritative mint, as I said. Otherwise it could not have a standardized value and each transaction would require carefully weighing the gold coin and checking its purity
>>534280809How does the guy know how much the socially average labor was to find him to ask for his pokemon card? Which he then gives to you in exchange for not money in commie utopia.
>>534267251Actually, no retard. I've lived under Communism and have researched the topic for longer than you've been alive. Anyone who's had any experience under Communism feels as passionate about killing all of you fucking psychos as I do. Commie filth deserve to die because you want to kill us all for disagreeing with your childish fantasies. Ask literally any refugee of Communism and they will say the same thing as I am you dumb fuck.LENIN WROTE IN SUPPORT OF THE 1906-1908 FAMINE because of "muh Capitalist starving peasants." Not an exaggeration, anyone can Google this. So you're subhuman trash of the lowest order. You actually want to repeat the violence that Communism caused because of "muh oppressor and muh oppressed" jewish fantasies. Understand that people will keep on fighting against you like our lives depend on it because many fully functional human beings can actually parse history. You're the enemy and you're the only reason Hitler or Donald Blumpf Cheeto Hitler ever had a chance at power.Seriously though, understand that as much as you enjoy internet larping as a faggot commie retarded redditor loser who knows nothing about life or politics, I'd kill you with immense pleasure if you people ever tried to pull another Communism in real life. The fact that we're even discussing Communism at all in 2026 is the fault of retarded useful idiots like yourself. You've always been a tool of billionaires and jews, and nothing else. You're an empty vessel NPC for the elites to use against humanity and you really don't deserve to live because of that very fact.
>>534280880>Otherwise it could not have a standardized value and each transaction would require carefully weighing the gold coin and checking its purityok
>>534280885He doesn't, he is making a personal appraisal and estimation. Because such appraisals can dramatically differ in this case, there is very little marker liquidity>>534280942Lenin opposed the money for relief go to the ruling class and believed it should go to the farmers and their local representatives
>>534280809Moronic pieces of shit like this filthy NPC transplant from reddit don't even know that Wall Street banking kikes funded the Russian Revolution and provided all the financial backing for Russia through WW2. These fucking morons got played 100 times by jews and they want to get played again. Nothing but mass genocide OF THE WORKERS results from Communism. It's pure Dunning Kruger evil to shill for this shit in 2026. This sub-nigger IQ OP deserves to be drawn and quartered for even making this thread on /pol/ of all places. Do you know where you are retard?
>>534281089>He doesn't, he is making a personal appraisal and estimation. Because such appraisals can dramatically differ in this case, there is very little marker liquidityExplain what liquidity is
>>534280942>I've lived under Communism and have researched the topic for longer than you've been alive. Anyone who's had any experience under Communism feels as passionate about killing all of you fucking psychos as I do.the mainstream view among russian boomers is nostalgia for the USSR, so i think you're lying
>>534281089Picrel is what this disgusting dipshit faggot commie larper wants for you and your family and your kids. (You) should be put into a proper Siberian gulag because it would be funny to see how you screech and cry over having to do any work at all for the first time in your life.
>>534281149The Russian Revolution is not the Bolshevik one. It came from an army sick of dying in millions to make the czar smile>>534281182Liquidity is how easy it is buy or sell something at an established market value.
>>534281268Famine plagued Russia for its entire existence. Communism industrialized and developed Russia. Famines did not stop happening in Russia until communism eventually ended them. Communism made Russia a global superpower and the first state to put a man in space after being more devastated by WWII than any other xountry
>>534281400>after being more devastated by WWII than any other xountrydude you're retarded.>communism eventually ended themAmazing how communism in russia was ended despite being such a miracle
>>534264285Marx is a brainlet who fails to understand opportunity cost and exports his failings to undergraduate economics textbooks.
>>534281239I'm not even close to boomer, I just have great early life memory. Do you want to your kids to be taught about how amazing Biden and Kamala Harris were while saluting their portraits in kindergarten? That's what I had in the late 80s, except with Lenin and Stalin. And no, the nostalgia is not the predominant boomer view. I still talk to them and no one thinks this way. Anyone with two brain cells from the former USSR still recognizes that Communism failed and was a horrible cancer on the country that resulted in all of the problems Russia has today. It was nothing but stagnation and corruption after Stalin, leading to little manlet warmongers like Putin and Zelensky (space race notwithstanding, all the budget was for the Russian MIC so they had to do well at something). It's actually incredibly fucked up that Stalin ended up as objectively the best leader of that system. That tells you everything you need to know, full stop. It would be much better to be a Russian serf in 1860 than to go through what my great grandparents went through. I'm not even here to say that jewed modern US/EU capitalism is great or doesn't need to be fixed, even though it is much better objectively. My only point is that Communism is a genocidal death cult that morons help enact to give jews ultimate power. >inb4 ChinaThe only reason they started doing well is because they abandoned Commie retardation and switched to LITERAL FASCISM. Still not great though in 2026 to have to work 72 hours a week in a factory while living in a shoe box or you get organ harvested. All authoritarian collectivist ideologies, including National Socialism, SUCK and only ever happened because of insane jewish subversion. I'd go full 1488 Nazi in a heartbeat if the alternative was Communism. This is the key point for Commie retards. But I'd rather live in fucking Uganda than either of those choices if that's what my options were.
