Does anyone believe in a Generic God like a ball of light thats nice who doesn't eternally torture?>God is kind but can punish sins harshly but doesn't punish permanently>Doesn't need scripture because doesn't expect more than don't murder, don't steal, don't rape, don't cheat, don't be an asshole (God: "Figure out how to be a kind person with out a book)>allows magick and contact with supernatural/spirit beings as long as you aren't being evil>never allowed "moderated slavery" like the Bible and doesn't call humans their slave>never asked or commanded for animals or living things or their son to be sacrificed for sins>is free will over predestination>still doesn't allow murder, rape, torture, slavery, cheating, theft, violence that isn't self defense>creates homosexuals and bisexuals and allows them to be in relationships as he or she created the homosexuals and bisexuals>never commanded people to throw stones at the heads of gays or stones at the heads of disobedient children or stones at the heads of people who worked on a sabbath and also didn't do it 2000-3000 years ago then changed the rules because>doesn't throw you in a fire pit if you don't believe in him or her, is just interested in human beings being kind to each other and animals>life is about learning to be good through pain and other lessons we find out later after we die>allows you to marry permanently in the afterlife>temporarily punishes evil in a restorative/teaching way>when you die surprise, God tells you life is eternal>gives us multiple paths to choose and options all of which are goodI don't know if the Creator is actually like this because I haven't met them, but I hope it's something like this or better. The Bible kind of disappointed me with cruelty and allowed but moderated slavery (In the NT paul commands slaves to obey their master like they were Jesus, how isn't this supporting slavery? inb4 muh freedom. Freedom is good.)
That's called Providence
>>537223734Why would I expect God to be nice when reality isn't nice?
>>537223734yeah i explain to my family that "my god" is vague and not a petty fag who expects people to follow a bunch of stupid rules that contradict each otherto me if "god" is real, he's cool as fuck and understands vibes
>>537223734>can punish sins harshly but doesn't punish permanentlyThat is exactly the kind of God many believe in... eternal hell is just a misunderstanding that's been propagated.
>>537223881I've thought we're have been reborn into a Hell like planet and God is just very merciful and doesn't like chucking people into lava. Like we all have past lives we stole, killed, cheated, or were massive dicks so we're stuck on earth. Like we're in a purgatory or limbo but non christian version type of realm.I don't know though, I've not met God and I'm not an angel.
>>537223881Who knows, I think there is something about not making things too personal, the universe makes a lot of sense when you see it as some sandbox for stories to happen.
>>537224027It has been a matter of debate for aeons now, one thing I would like to point out, the harsh parts of the Bible seem to have been written during periods of upheaval, which make people cruel and have low trust.
>>537223734Research the crested eagle Storm God of the Chaoskampf. He slay the serpent/dragon.https://odysee.com/@Das_Syndikat:3/Chaoskampf-Donnergott:a?lid=202486f5bba9907a17239545830e09ad361a3189
>>537224676slays*
>>537224221I think evil makes sense when I think God allows ultimate free will. When you think from the perspective of God is so pro-free will he allows murder and rape and child abuse because he will not mind control everyone into niceness and wants us to choose good, life makes a lot more sense when not in a moment of pain.To me at least when not in emotional or physical pain.When in emotional or physical pain I can think God is unfair but that passes when the pain passes. Which makes sense to me at least.
>>537224676
>>537224794
>>537223734Most of what you described is exactly what Swedenborg wrote about and how he described life after the death of the body.
>>537223734That sounds nice anon
The Jews
>>537224413The eternal part is illustrated by how nothing can practically grow, maintain or be recovered in the midst of fire. Illustrated through imagery people of the times would have understood and felt a stronger connection to than us today.With today's technology there are many illustrations we could pick apart and say X or Y is now possible, but we get the meaning of the illustration anyway. These days you could gather all the feathers once they're let loose but all the same we understand how it applies to the way rumors can spread.As well, you're right, there are times when God tolerates not choosing the most peaceful, upright way being taken even by those who attempt to follow him. For now. Yet keeping enemy combatants to torture till the end of their days or being caged and displayed wasn't the usual way. Striking them down was. God knows people have various limits due to their culture and imperfection and works around that at times, but one day neither of those will be limit factors and people will have the capacity for choosing the upright way all the time
>>537223734God having a nature of "niceness" doesn't really make any sense given the nature of our world - it has violence, chaos, instability, random mutation, supply & demand cruelty, events where blank slates are harmed (seriously can you justify an infant dying because a Jeet driving a truck was on his phone?).Classic religion tries to reframe that as the universe being cursed because of man, the devil doing it, or some kind of free will excuse. If you think for a while you'll find these equally lame.What I do think, is that there is enough evidence for a creator or something greater than this world from the evidence of our world. But its also very likely (my pov) that he isn't inherently nice but prefers to have an open set of events where there are as many possible paths, including random influence playing a big factor.In short: the nice God is at best a delusion. A more realistic vision is a God that just lets the universe play out as it wants to.
>>537225515I agree with this part> is a God that just lets the universe play out as it wants to.God does this exactly I think.But I think it may be niceness in the end. I hate being controlled, and I think there may be a big lesson to be learned about not being nice.And if I just like God and God isn't nice, but is complete utter free will to the point of being harsh, well I just like God because I like existing. Is God really that harsh if we all get eternal life in the end after a shitty less than 100 years on earth in a place with no pain where God may even set us up with a wife who agrees to marry us in free will, like playing match maker where we still have to get to know them and decide to get married? Like not arranged marriage, but God puts two compatible people together and lets the universe play out. I want a wife forever in Heaven second most in eternity. First most I want to exist.Maybe after we die we'll learn how important free will is.The baby actually died because in the hypothetical the Indian guy drunk drove and made a bad free will choice.God would have to mind control us all into obedience and puppeteer everything to stop evil. Especially if even perfect angels ever fell after meeting God.Because even Angels with 1 million + IQs who were born in Heaven may sin at times.Perhaps, God wants a chance for Good and a chance for evil and wants us to pick good because reality is important to him.
>>537225515It makes sense when you realize that to love somebody means to want what's best for them, and what's best for us is that we become wise. God does not want to coddle us, delude us with comforts or turn us into self indulgent slobs with no character, no principles and no virtues. God wants us to become good, because happiness is synonymous with goodness. We experience pain so that we can grow, learn and have compassion for others. Only someone who doesn't perceive value in the correct things would experience this life and then come away from it thinking that God is unloving or callous, in the same way that only a kid with a rotten attitude fails to appreciate the lessons that his fathers teaches him.
>>537223734sounds like fundamentally unscientific bullshit to me. its "in my mind it was real" type of nonsense.like your whole premise assumes that the universe has a personality or an intention regarding human behavior.thats highly unlikely.the universe is basically driven by massive electrical currents and interconnected plasma structures. these systems operate on laws of physics that are indifferent to human morality.and life and consciousness are emergent dissipative structures within these thermodynamic processes.so to suggest a "Generic God" is managing our moral lessons ignores the actual mechanisms.
>>537225927OP's proposition is actually more scientific than the idea that the universe has no mind and no will. If minds and wills exist in the universe, which they do, then mind and will must exist in the first cause of the universe. Otherwise, you would be claiming that something came from nothing, which violates every scientific law and logical axiom in the book.
>>537223734I'm a pantheist. I believe that god is the universe.I believe that God created evil, so that we could see good.But I also believe that in my daily life I encounter good at a rate of 9x that of evil at least.So in my mind. The universe isn't uncaring, otherwise why would we enjoy art, taste food, feel pleasure.God wants us to be happy. but in order to know happiness, we need to know some suffering, and that suffering can be pretty cruel, but if you let the suffering consume you, you will never feel the grace of redemption.
>>537226050>If minds and wills exist in the universe, which they do, then mind and will must exist in the first cause of the universeThat does not followYou are assuming that there is a first cause of the universeThe universe is likely eternal and cyclical>Otherwise, you would be claiming that something came from nothingAnd where did God come from?
>>537225834What about entities that never end up consciously experiencing events to ever grow or learn? I deliberately used the infant crushed by jeet-truck example because it shows that totally blank slate characters can be destroyed without ever being given a chance to experience or learn or grow.Your vision falls flat, and is simply far too weak - its not real. Which also defeats Abrahamism and most popular religions out of the gate.
>>537226179You could refine that belief with the idea that evil is a privation, and not a creation. Meaning God is like a sun that radiates only goodness and love, and evil only exists where he doesn't shine in the same way that the sun doesn't create shadows, but shadows exist where its light can't reach. The only place where God's goodness can't reach is the mind of a man who has turned away from goodness and love, but that man must be allowed to turn away if he so wishes because in order for goodness to be meaningful it must be a choice. Basically God only creates good because God is goodness itself, and evil is merely the absence of good and not anything that was created in the same way that cold and darkness were never created, they're just the absence of something else.
>>537223734WHAT A USELESS POST.FUCK YOU FAGGOT.BURN IN HELL.
>a Generic God like a ball of light thats nice who doesn't eternally torture?god is more like a guy who set up a public minecraft server without rules or moderation
I am OP.Would any of you complain about the dead babies hit by drunk Indians or people sacrificing kids if you die and find out>babies went right to Heaven even if didn't believe shit and weren't baptized either and theyre existing in Heaven forever even though yeah baby killing fucking sucks and is evil as shit>the drunk Indian was supposed to not do what he did and God didn't support the action God just doesn't puppeteer everything>you get eternal life that never ends, as in trillions upon trillions of years of existance>God doesn't burn your friend's family acquaintances or even enemies in lava eternallyI think eternal existence makes up for a lot of pain.
>>537223734>Does anyone believe in a Generic God like a ball of light thats nice who doesn't eternally torture?Yup, that's the God of the Bible. For more information come here. >>537222624
>>537226258It does follow, because there must be a first cause of the universe. An infinite regression cannot subsist on itself, because an infinite regression would be an infinite series of potentials with no actual. Like a series of dominoes with nobody to knock them over. There must be a "real" or "actual" in order for anything within a chain of cause and effect to exist subsequently. Rejecting cause and effect is really no different from rejecting logic, and rejecting logic is nothing more than conceding the argument.>And where did God come from?God didn't "come from" anywhere or anything. If God is the creator of time and space, then God existed prior to time and space. Which means God is outside of time and space. If something exists outside of time, that means there was never a point in time at which God did not exist. Meaning he is eternally uncaused, uncreated and unmade. He simply "is".
>>537223734Homos rape kids, hence the stoning
>>537226350So God is an architect who built a house, but some of the rooms have no windows and no light fixtures, preventing light from reaching it.And you're saying it's the owner's fault that the house was designed that way?Put another way, calling evil an absence rather than a thing doesn't explain why an omnipotent creator designed a world where such absences inevitably arise
>>537226537I refuse to believe there are not gays who are not in faithful relationships that are loving or celibate.I don't even like gays but I know throwing rocks at the heads of things I don't like is wrong even if I think what theyre doing is gross.
>>537226280>What about entities that never end up consciously experiencing events to ever grow or learn?That's too bold of an assumption on your part. How do you know they aren't reborn again in order to learn the lessons they missed out on? How do you know that they don't go on learning in the next life? How do you know that they didn't absorb some valuable lesson unconsciously, and that that one small lesson wasn't the final missing piece of the puzzle that would allow them to ascend? Your complaints only make sense under the idea that you get one shot at learning and that's that, but that isn't a realistic assumption to make.
>>537226518>there must be a first cause of the universePlease provide evidence for this claimIt is possible that the universe is eternal, and recent evidence from DESI indicates that a cyclical big bang/big crunch is likely
>>537223734>Shouldn't the God of reality, a place where the consistent pain of life is justified by the quest for deep meaning, and where the natural laws are infinite in complexity and require constant focus and attention to not die and get everyone killed, be an extremely simplistic and vague image that requires I do nothing?
>>537225794If the end state is guaranteed (Eternal Life/Heaven) then the variables arent truly free.you want them to be part of a predetermined trajectory toward a fixed goal.so if the destination is programmed then this journey isnt free will at all and basically it’s just scripted.so why do you contradict yourself? you want the illusion of choice with the guarantee of a happy ending? thats really just wishful thinking.+ you cant have a dynamic existence in a static paradise.your vision of heaven is actually literally just a scientific description of a dead universe where nothing ever happens.clearly this is not whats going on here.>>537226050the something from nothing fallacy only applies if you assume a temporal beginning to the universe.if the universe is eternal, infinite, and endless as supported by the continuous cycles of energy and plasma seen in cosmic structures then there is no first cause requiring a transition from non existence to existence.also your leap from minds exist to the source must have a mind is logically retarded.minds are emergent properties resulting from specific complex arrangements of matter and energy (non equilibrium states).the emergence does not imply that the foundational substrate of the universe possesses intentionality.like a hurricane has a highly organized structure and behavior, but it doesnt possess a will.also another mistake you make is mistaking the map for the territory.mathematics is a derivative tool used to model patterns within reality, it is not reality itself.so using mathematical models of beginnings or singularities to demand a conscious creator ignores the actual physical reality which is an infinite, eternal universe driven by plasma dynamics and thermodynamic gradients, which function perfectly well without a mind behind them.so technically we dont need a made up God figure to explain anything we see here.
>>537226711>That's too bold of an assumption on your partThen literally one sentence later>How do you know they aren't reborn again in order to learn the lessons they missed out onSo now you're assuming God, the existence of a soul, the concept of reincarnation, and that there are divine lessons to be learnedTypical
>>537226607No, I'm saying that God put in the windows and the light fixtures, but the tenants of the home went out of their way to destroy the lights and blockade the windows. But the tenants had to be allowed to do this, because their ownership of the house was the purpose of the house being built in the first place. The universe was built in order to teach us to love good and shun evil. In order to learn those lessons in a meaningful way, we have to have the option of choosing evil and then intentionally reject it. Evil arises because not all people choose correctly. But even this isn't a bad thing on the part of God, because their bad choices serve as a lesson for those of us who witness their evil and decide that it would be too shameful to go down the same path.
>>537223734>creates homosexuals and bisexuals and allows them to be in relationships as he or she created the homosexuals and bisexuals>never commanded people to throw stones at the heads of gaysThe retard who lacks a structured faith loves gays and cries when they get hurt? That tracks.
>>537223734Not specifically what you say, but I do believe God is good and merciful. I don't see the reason a god who punished half or more of all people who generally fall under 'neutral' morality would exist. For what purpose?
>>537226711Probably because there is absolutely no evidence of reincarnation and different lives? Your current argument opens up a serious issue too: why should an entity with no recollection of its past face severe punishment and violence when its lacking all awareness?Abrahamism is logically weak, as is your vision.
>>537226758>that requires I do nothing?I said, no murder, theft, cheating, violence that isn't self defense, no cheating. I did not say God requires nothing, I said he expects us to figure it out with no book.I don't want God to allow murder, rape, theift and cheating and violence and being an asshole. I don't think he does.I haven't figured it all out yet. But maybe God doesn't expect us to be his sons literal slaves and doesn't throw us into lava pits forever? That's what I hope.I dislike how the Bible says we have to be slaves of Christ, and talks about eternal torture. Yes I know it may be a mistranslation but that's a big mistake for a deity to allow to go on if the book is really their word, and a big mistake for a deity to allow their religion to make.The Bible also says no marriage in Heaven. I want a wife who's my best friend forever. Faithful sex with a beautiful woman who's my wife and best friend forever who I don't have to share with everyone is my greatest hope after existing forever free.I know there is a Creator but I don't know for sure who they are. I have hope though they're something like I described.I don't like the slave shit in the Bible dude. Doesn't mean I think God allows murder and rape and cheating.
>>537226749Every effect has a cause. That's the basis of our reality. The chain of cause and effect must terminate in a cause that is itself uncaused and eternal, otherwise you would have an infinite regression of effects with no cause. To say that there's no cause and everything is all effects forever is to reject cause and effect itself, which is to reject logic. Even within the confines of what we can observe, it's clear that some thing exist prior to matter and outside of time. The laws of physics, for example, must exist prior to matter itself. Otherwise there would have been a point in time at which matter existed but no laws to govern matter's behavior.
>>537226929>The universe was built in order to teach us to love good and shun evilCould God have done that without making it a place with rape, torture, and furries?Furthermore, what lesson is learned by earthquakes, floods, and pediatric cancer?
>>537227085There's no evidence that life ends after the death of the body. Reason has always pointed to the necessity of an eternal consciousness, because the same laws that dictate that nothing can come from nothing also dictate that nothing can fade into nothing. Otherwise we wouldn't even have a universe, if things that existed could simply stop existing. I'm not trying to propose any particular theory, I'm saying that your theory relies on the assumption that we only get one crack at learning within a very short timeframe.Also, there's no such thing as punishment because there's no such thing as pointless suffering. All pain is pedagogical, not punitive. That much is provable in the here and now, and doesn't rely on any theories.
>>537227171an eternal system doesnt need a mover since the energy flows are continuous.basically there was never a time when "nothing" existed for your imaginary God to fix. its eternal.also the big bang cosmology model has failed for 40+ or so years so there is zero physical evidence for any of your big bang claims.
>>537223734>In the NT paul commands slaves to obey their master like they were JesusAdvice given to people who were legally enslaved. You can't judge it from a 21st century worldview. Paul had a lot of Wisdom and gave good advice. Would it turn out well for them to make a big stink and create problems for their slave master who could legally beat them or whatever? Paul also told them to get free if they could. The best way to read the Bible is slowly as to understand it and not apply any spin you may have learned from religions. >crueltyThe Israelites had to wipe out the offspring of fallen angels, the Nephilim. The giants. Before the flood, they had made the world so bad that God; who is a righteous, wise, and loving God, had decided that the absolute best thing to do was kill everybody including all the animals. But Noah found favor in His eyes.
>>537227329>>537227362KEEP DEBATING YALL.WE STILL GONNA BURN YOU IN HELL.DELUSIONAL DESIGNED LOSERS.CHOSEN TO DIE.GOODBYE.
>>537227378>legally enslavedWowIt's always amazing to me when a Christfag unironically endorses slavery
>>537223734God doesn’t eternally torture, humans at least. Picrel.
>>537227329Ok but that still doesn't explain how or why an entity's world experience can end almost instantly in the most brutal and pointless fashion before said entity can ever develop true consciousness or experience. What you're saying is basically that our experience here might not matter because you get another chance elsewhere, while simultaneously saying it matters because you can learn things from bad experiences.It just doesn't make sense. I have never met a single Abrahamic or trad religious person who could ever apply rational/logical reasoning to beat me in a direct debate. It always ends up with appeal to feelgood feels.
>>537227193>Could God have done that without making it a place with rape, torture, and furries?No, he could not have. For the same reason why God can't be incoherent, can't be evil and can't be self-contradictory. Your question is kind of like asking "why can't God make a circle that's square?".>what lesson is learned by earthquakes, floods, and pediatric cancer?That man's only possession is his own conduct. Even the Stoics were keen on this lesson and saw the value in it, so it's got nothing to do with "Abrahamism".
>>537223734
>>537227427They were legally enslaved in the Roman Empire by the laws of the land at that time. Paul was giving them advice for the specific situation they were in. I was saying it was legal, not that it was right. So, I didn't endorse slavery in that context. I was describing details of situations.
>>537227486>No, he could not have.Why would I worship a God that is so weak he cannot even prevent pediatric cancer?
You had every chance to be nice to Jesus because I was here. You worship Saklas. He is the source of all suffering, illness, poisoned food, disunity, and racial tensionHe just fucks with your senses, I'm sorry bro HAHAHAHAHeeheeheeheehee :PHe was given great authority, and he ruled over the creation of poverty. He created gods and angels, archangels, myriads without number for retinue, from that Light and the tri-male Spirit, which is that of Sophia, his consort. For from this, God originated divinity and kingdom. Therefore he was called 'God of gods' and 'King of kings'.
>>537223734>In the NT paul commands slaves to obey their master like they were Jesus, how isn't this supporting slavery? inb4 muh freedom. Freedom is goodthe point was to infiltrate and convert by sheer behavior alone. show the masters that Christ's teachings were better than any slave culture ever could be.there is no point in revolt.subverting evil slave culture by demonstrating a better way of life is the correct way.but the jews created islam in response
>>537227571>Paul was giving them advice for the specific situation they were inSo the advice was "Yeah, keep those slaves, since they're legal"?Shouldn't an all-just all-loving God have Paul tell them to not own slaves?
>>537227478It makes perfect sense, you just have to drop the idea that there's such a thing as pointless suffering. All suffering points to a lesson, because if there was no lesson then there could be no suffering. If you were perfectly wise you would either be unbothered by the situation or you would have known how to avoid the situation. No matter how subtle, the lesson does get picked up through repetition. Just as a thought exercise, imagine being a lazy person who squanders his life, and then being reborn as a barnacle or some other miserably immobile creature. That experience, in a subtle way, would teach you to value your next human life.Also, I'm not sure why you keep harping on about Abraham when the things I'm explaining to you are traditionally Buddhist.
>>537227692>but the jews created islam in responseSaklas
>>537223734The Christian God (the only real One) doesn't eternally torture anyone. The Christian God is infinitely merciful and offers salvation to everyone who accepts it. If you end up suffering eternal damnation, it's because (You) freely chose to reject God's love and salvation.It's like having a terminal disease, and a doctor comes in and freely offers you the medicine that will cure you. If you still choose to reject the medicine the doctor offers you and end up dying, that's not the doctor's fault. Your death is entirely on you for being a dumbass.
>>537227583>Why would I worship a God that is so weak he cannot even prevent pediatric cancer?it's a hands off universe.muslims believe in a pure hands on universe. even non-muslims are controlled by allah. crazy shit that allows muslims to rationalize their actions with no guilt
>>537227698That wasn't what was being discussed. Paul was giving advice to the slaves who had become believers in Jesus, not the slave masters.
>>537227583Coherency and goodness are strengths, not weaknesses. What you're getting hung up on is that you don't understand what good is. You think that ease, comfort, relaxation and self indulgence are good. In reality, only wisdom, selflessness, justice and virtue are good. Trials and lessons need to exist in order for wisdom and virtue to exist, which is why a coherent universe must contain both.
>>537227797>it's a hands off universe.Fine, but then the question becomesWhy should I worship a God that doesn't give a fuck about me and actively ignores preventable evil?
>>537227708K so what is the lesson for a newborn that's sleeping in his moms car when it gets rammed at 120km/h jeettruck? The newborn has no real experience, he has no context of the world, perhaps the event is even so fast and destructive that it doesnt even trigger a pain response let alone a conscious experience to learn from.Like I said, your vision sucks because you use feelgood feels to fuel it, just like most mainstream religions. Feelgood feels is great for telling a story and becoming a popular ideology - but its simply false when describing our world.
>>537227378>Advice given to people who were legally enslaved.Paul told a slave who ran away to go back to their master, but the master to treat them like a brother but didn't command the master to free the slave, philmeon.I hate legal slavery. I hate slavery.The Bible also calls believes literal "Slaves of Christ"I don't want to be slaves of anyone, not even God.Bible God is fine with telling prostitutes consensual or not they'll burn in a fire or something but commands slaves to obey their master like the master is Gods son? I don't get why if the Bible is true why God is okay upsetting prostitution and sex before marriage and going against it regardless of how unpopular in would be, but God refuses to ban slavery.Along with throwing the rocks at the heads of gays in the old testmaent, it makes me hope for something better than the Bible.I don't know the rules of the creator though. I sure as fuck hope there's no slavery and God allows marriage in Heaven.Being in heaven married to a woman and never sharing her and not being a slave sounds like paradise to me.Being forced to be a celibate slave sounds like less than an ideal eternity. Sure God could make it Heaven great still but I hope for something different than the Bible, even if it was mistranslated or misunderstood about the eternal torture/hell/lake of fire crap which sounded to me back when I used to read the Bible, like your spirit or soul burns constantly in something like lava yet you never die. I also hope for no annihilation of the soul.I can see if God has a Hell that's a prison and people who refuse to be Good go there until theyre willing to try, but if they're not willing to try they don't get out until theyre willing to try. Indefinite prison until you start to stop being evil. But that's on the Creation then, not some >1 chance then you're out stuff like what I read when I read the Bible many times.I'll hope for what regardless of religion or scripture
>>537227877Sorry, you didn't actually answer my question, so I'll repeat itWhy would I worship or believe in a God that is so weak he cannot even prevent pediatric cancer?
This thread was moved to >>>/bant/24517157
