I genuinely feel like the Misawa people are in a weird cult, because Kenta Kobashi is clearly in a league of his own it isn't even funny. The level of theatrics he provides alone. Matches become scorched with burning energy. Misawa was good with intensity, but doesn't do much to play the crowd. Kobashi will not only deliver a amazing match, but he'll make sure everyone in that house pops while he does it and chant his name.
>>19528279based and Kobashipilled
Kobashi is my favorite but you also needed Misawa to really bring the best out of Kobashi which is a point I'd give to the Misawabros.
>>19528279Always got the vibe that Misawa had a specific sort of charisma in Japan as this stoic boomer workaholic fighting through the pain and fatigue and drinking like a sailor.Like how Stone Cold was appealing to us because he beat up his boss and disrespected authority, Misawa was more the power fantasy of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and earning your boss' respect. That probably resonated with both overworked salarymen and young people in 90s recession Japan who were unemployed and getting yelled at by their dads all day. Not sure how accurate that is though.
>>19528591Bro, you got this better than almost anyone and I say this as one of the biggest puro marks that there is, it's funny how someone like Dave who is so famous for his love for Japan and can't get at all why those guys were over like you did now
>>19528591OP here. I always suspected this was the reason honestly. Which hey, a wrestler to hit the zeitgeist that matters to the paying audience, I will never deny Misawa's legacy. I am just saying for my sensibilities and love for pro-wrestling, Kobashi hits all the marks.He transcends language barrier which is very rare in a foreign wrestler.
>>19528279kobashi has the higher cagematch rating
Misawa's entire gimmick was stoicism which made all of his little flashes of emotion, most often his intensity, like water in a desert to his fans.The proof is in the fan reactions and they went nuts for him over there.Kobashi is my personal favorite as well, OP, but Misawa is the GOAT and Kobashi would say the same I'm sure.
>>19528591You're right, it's culture-specific but we also gotta take into account the booking of Misawa's rise. I guess it was a you-had-to-be-there kind of thing to get obsessed with him like the 90s Japanese did. It also helped that he was good-looking (before frogmaxxing) and has always been great in the ring.
>>19528279Kobashi was, at best, the 3rd best pillar.
>>19528745tell me your no. 1 and 2?
>>19528591You've pretty much nailed it. There is also a romantic longing for the culturally suppressed Shinto warrior spirit that has been implicit in the "strong style" from the beginning. Misawa embodied this spirit better than anyone (except maybe Inoki), and more and more as he aged, but you've captured the essence of his appeal within his country.
>>19528279>Low IQ Kobatards: LOOK AT ME I'M SCREAMING THIS MEANS I'M LEVELING UP >Chad Misawabros: haha cute let me eat your best shots while looking half asleep and boop you with my elbows
as long as we can agree that Kawada was the worst pillar
>>19528742>before frogmaxxingThat was his prime look
>>19528928Explain why do you think this to me please because it's very rare to hear something calling him the worst one
>>19528939*someone my bad kek
>>19528860misawa wasn't "strong style" thoughking's road is NASCAR puro (american redneck style) and strong style is F1 puro (yuropoor sportsman style)
>>19528939it can pretty much be debated until the end time if Misawa or Kobashi is the top pillar and it could pretty much change depending on the day you ask, so they can't be the worst. Taue has the uniqueness factor of being a big lanky Giant Baba esque wrestler.Which leaves Kawada, he doesn't ave the stoic charisma or Misawa, he doesn't have the babyface fire of Kobashi or the uniqueness that Taue brings. He's the left over one he doesn't do anything better than any of the others yet doesn't have anything that sets him apart.Also I feel that when you compare Taue with Kawada, Taue shined against more people outside of the 4 pillars than Kawada did, so I give it to him.
>>19528973You're right, but I never took that distinction seriously. Both the US-influenced "King's Road" style and the Euro-influenced "strong style" inevitably collapsed into one general Japanese style of wrestling -- one which has long since influenced the development of the US and Euro styles in turn. 2014 Daniel Bryan and 2025 Gunther are two examples of in-ring standouts whose styles incorporate the characteristics of the strong style, the king's road style, and a blend of several others as well. There has also been another wave or two of West-to-East stylistic influences over the past two decades. I probably would've been better off placing the emphasis on the "fighting spirit" theatrics common to both than opening myself up to your fair objection by using "strong style" as an umbrella term.
and he has much better song too
Misawa - Ray LeonardKobashi - Hagler Duran - KawadaHearns - Taue
>>19528909Succinct
Yes. Kobashi wrestled more like a traditional American babyface. So i understand why he’s more appealing to gaijin when they first start watching all Japan or noah.
>>19529382The Four Kings don't have an obvious Taueequating Hearns to Taue is so goddamn disrespectful
>>19528939History has been kind to taue. He’s proof that you can get over and stay over with that audience without being a stiff head dropper. And he did a better job carrying Nagata than Kawada did any of the new Japan shitters he worked with post split. And then there’s his shameful HUSTLE run. At least the NOAH Christmas stuff is actually funny and not insulting. Basically he had no gas post split, and became joke. Where all the guys who headed to know basically has a whole second career.
>>19529961He also lifted weights like an American wrestler, was mentored in weight lifting by The Road Warriors who helped him figure out a training regiment. This is why AJPW guys from that period are so yoked up and NJPW guys are a bit more slender during the 90s (sans Hashimoto)
>>19528973>>19529085I just want to clarify for you both of you. Kings Road is an era not a style. When TNA mainevents had a dozen run ins and weapon spots no one called them attitude matches, they were just called gay.
>>19530019It's both
>>19530023In gaijin conversation it has become both because western smarks love sounding off on shit they’re only half educated on.
>>19530029No, 90s AJPW very clearly has a style all its own with a combination of hard striking and dangerous head drops that set it apart from NJPW and the shoot style stuff happening at the time. It's rightfully a way to denote the era and the style.Hashimoto was a hard striker, Choshu was a hard striker, but neither of them did complex powerbombs or suplexes like the King's Road guys, and they had a more economical use of big moves, and would spam kicks and Riki Lariats instead.The two guys that kind of bridge the gap between the eras are Tenryu and Jumbo who have a bit more of a blend of the two styles.
>>19528279
>>19530034This right here.King's Road is absolutely a style and I wish it were still around. It's not. For starters, the modern trend is to hit finisher after finisher and kick out while your opponent pretends to be shocked. With King's Road, there were techniques developed to "finish" a match that fit the context of that specific match and the rivalry that came before it. And then there were the super finishers that would only be whipped out for special moments. Everything is so backwards today.
>>19530034You’re so ignorant. The style you’re referring to goes back into the 80s with Tenryu and Jumbos match ups. And anything with Tenryu is distinctly not kings road. You can info dump all the little tidbits you’ve overheard about Japanese wrestling and that’s not going to change that.
>>19530098>you're so ignorant>you mentioned Jumbo and Tenryu but I'm going to just pretend that you didn't mention them to make my point>also it doesn't matter how many facts you post, you're not going to be able to change my mindThanks for letting me to know to stop replying to you then? Dumbass
>>19530108Those matches happened in the 80s and not the 90s. You can’t even get that straight. Give it up kid. You’re just repeating shit you heard in a Kim Justice video essay. You’re not actually educated in the matter like me.
>>19530098King's Road does not just mean 'hard hitting' or 'looks real'. It's more about the narrative build up and in ring storytelling across several matches against rivals. It's the concept of having to earn a victory through applying everything you learned from months or even years of matches, developing new techniques, figuring out how to counter your opponent, etc.
>>19528279Every now and then Kobashi fell into the "let's do this because it looks cool" mentality which led to convoluted or contrived spots where both guys are clearly cooperating. He was fantastic of course but that's enough of a tiebreaker for me when it comes to comparing him to Misawa
>>19528690The stoicism thing wasn't even a gimmick, he just seemed like a quiet dude who kept to himself. IIRC wasn't there a story about how most of his coworkers only learned he had kids when they showed up backstage one time?
>>19529085Japanese style is mostly dead. It's just a knockoff American indy style which itself is a knockoff bastardized combination of Dragon Gate and '90s AJPW/AJW from guys who either tape traded or were trained by guys who tape traded.
>>19530034I agree with everything said here. I'm the anon who started this debate with my hasty usage of the term "strong style." (This is my 3rd reply in the thread.) The debate itself shows why I never took the "King's Road" distinction too seriously. They were similar yet discernably distinctive styles that emerged from the same tradition and were then synthesized by way of their influence on later generations (which define an "era"). This entire process has developed within the cultural context of a Japanese wrestling tradition that has always been broadly distinguishable from the other three major traditions based in the US, Mexico, and Europe. This was true before the '90s, and it was true after.>>19530160Wouldn't you agree that the Kobashi vs Misawa series stands as the gold standard of this aspect of the tradition? I would (though Misawa/Kawada is damn close), and it may simply be a matter of most performers failing to reach the required level of excellence to see it through. This would be an instance of cultural decay within a tradition, where subsequent practitioners have drifted away from what set them apart best. OP's nostalgic endorsement of Kobashi over Misawa itself expresses the changing tides that prepared for the rise of Tanahashi. The special comprehensive "King's Road" style your referring to here, that can cover several matches over several years, has no doubt been imitated in the time since, but the tradition in general has changed so much that I can't see it coming back. Something new but different will have to emerge for the sake of contemporary Japanese wrestling.>>19530328That's my understanding too. The tradition is in rough shape right now, but there's bound to come a star or two who emerges to revitalize the market and carry on the stylistic tradition -- which preserves the fundamental elements that set it apart but introduces new ones that get over for Japanese fans. The potential for this is definitely still there.
30 women won a contest to take an island vacation with misawa. Baba told him he had to fuck all of them because the fans deserve a good time. It was a 5 day trip.
