wow its crazy you follow a religion that has just as much proof as some 75 IQ uncontacted tribe deep in the jungle's religion. but its a debate so youre actually an intellectual.... learning so mcuh

>>83446160
you can not be catholic and respect false religion of protestantism at the same time

it is basically like saying dry water or cold fire

>>83446171
What the fuck is a "false religion"? All religions are equally unfalsifiable and the adherents of other religions are as genuine as you

>>83446160
I'm between 2.0 and 3.0.

>>83446222
>Christianity=true religion
>everything else=false religion

but Christianity ONLY consists of those Churches that uphold the Apostolic Succession and have true sacraments (so basically ONLY Catholicism and Orthodoxy)

>>83446222
>All religions are equally unfalsifiable and the adherents of other religions are as genuine as you
Even in the same religion, miracles are proof of being theologically correct, but can be rejected on majority rule.

>>83446279
religion is only unfalsifiable when faith isn't intellectual. that's why "grace by faith alone" is so harmful.
if your belief is your truth, meaning if you are the end all be all for what feels good or makes sense for Christianity, if your interpretation is just as valid as the church's interpretation, if you have as good an idea as anyone else would on what something in the Bible is supposed to mean, then your truth is isolating you from group consensus so hard you are intellectually alone.

So many protestants out there have such a build-a-bear version of Christianity that they have no where to go for community. They think everyone else has it wrong, but they'll settle for someone they like enough.

It's like shopping. it's disgusting

>>83446319
This is a good argument -for- crucifying Jesus.

>>83446160
The graph goes from older to newer religion. But then you should definitely swap Protestantism with Catholicism.
>but catholics have a church that transmits faith through revelations
That's the same thing 3.2 dummy. Only protestants bring down God to the personal level. Also
>their church wasn't the one that Jesus started
Did you mean Paul?

>>83446330
true! i'm glad he let us do that

>>83446369
>but catholics have a church that transmits faith through revelations
This is said nowhere in the image I posted, so I'm gonna pull the "you made that shit up" card.
>Did you mean Paul?
I meant Peter. It's in the Bible. The Gospel according to Matthew chapter 16. The Christian Bible. That's the church Jesus started.

>>83446380
That's not very nice towards Mr. God :^(

>>83446160
It's all the same shit retard

>>83446457
I could not have made the 5 paradigm shifts more distinct

>>83446170
it sounds like you don't know what it means for the Incarnation to be extended through the sacraments, but if you've never been baptized, how would you?

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>>83446563
If the ultimate outcome for religion according to OP is just bowing to the authority of the church again, then I don't think anyone ITT has really gotten to the root of where moral authority lies today.

my favourite part about christianity is when different subgroups waged war on each other and killed millions

>>83446563
I love how you add layers of lore and theology trying to make sense of the myths you worship, as if that makes them any more factual.

>>83446596
can you show me a better religion? do you have a better idea? do you know what Jesus teaches? do you believe in anything?

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Think about it. If you were playing a "Pandemic" game for religion, this would be one of the "Madagascar has closed its only port" bad ends.
How is OP trying to cast this as a good thing?

>>83446588
Faith is intellectual, try again

>>83446606
what's mythological about the Gospel?

>>83446622
If faith is intellectual, then why would you delegate that to a concrete historical structure? Not performing the intellectual exercise of being faithful is the same as false faith.

>>83446610
I can show you the best smelling piece of excrement in the sewage, but it would still be shit.
Buddhism is better anyway.

>>83446406
>you made that shit up
In 5.0
>the Church preserves and transmits the faith
And in 3.2
>Revelations understood as direct, authoritative guidance [by a Church]
Catholicism just loops back to the older authority-based religion. The Catholic Church would be a 3.2 by very own image.

>>83446627
In the Gospel, they believed and referenced the things in the Old Testament. There is little if any historical evidence of King David, and before that, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Adam are all just legendary figures.

>>83446627
The first hint is a virgin getting pregnant.

>>83446657
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14819982-300-the-boy-whose-blood-has-no-father/

>>83446473
You know nothing about other religious traditions. You post zhuangzi in philosophical and yin/yang in moral law as if there is philosophical daoism and it's literally not the same core that is based on shamanism which also makes it animistic and pagan. Instead of making up categories how about you touch grass and pray the rosary?

>>83446672
So what you're saying is...
Jesus had XX chromosomes

>>83446610
>do you have a better idea?
Filtering out myths through the lenses of reason and not believing in them blindly, taking only the few good bits as valid teachings and dismissing the rest as fabrications.
>what jesus teaches
That if you don't worship him, you are cursed. Quite the megalomaniac egocentric teaching. It's unlikely that the historical jesus said such. Sounds more like the type of jewish subversion that would be added to those letters decades after his death.
>do you believe in anything
Not in ancient hebrew mythology.

>>83446629
Faith ceases to be intellectual when it's purely private.

The Church exists precisely to test, preserve, and discipline belief across time so faith remains accountable rather than arbitrary.

Material history in manufacturing exists for the same purpose; to track the beginning and end of an important piece of material so that its quality is assured.

>>83446653
yeah that was the point. the catholic church affirms that our God is the God of the whole earth.

>>83446692
>The Church exists precisely to test, preserve, and discipline belief across time
The Church as an institution isn't a good apparatus for that today. For example, what about the problem of pedophile priests being protected by the church? Jesus gave instructions directly to the believers on how to treat each other, so why is a corrupt church needed as a mediator? I think Orthodoxy gets it right where Catholicism is not valid.

>>83446692
>The Church exists precisely to test, preserve, and discipline belief across time so faith remains accountable rather than arbitrary.
You're talking about the same church that institutionalized boy rape and protected predators up until the 2000s. Hilarious.

>>83446707
>>83446716
rape hivemind

>>83446160
There's such an abyssal gap of logic between concluding there is a god, and believing in the hebrew version of it.

>>83446707
no one is saying it's perfect. every Pope has sinned because every Pope is human. there's so often no alternative provided by criticisms of church leadership that it makes it sound like whining

>>83446692
>Faith ceases to be intellectual when it's purely private.
How? That's such a meaningless statement.

>>83446653
God does demand obedience from Christians the same way Allah demands obedience from Muslims. The differences between the Christian Trinity and Allah are numerous

>>83446738
>no alternative provided
there are plenty of alternatives, thousands of religions, each one with thousands of denominations. There's even lack of religion altogether.
It seems like your moral investment is claiming that your alternative is superior.

>>83446672
so jesus was conceived through a biological genetic mistake and not because god impregnated a girl with his holy semen?

>>83446610
the way that the religious people cling to it, like their lives would be lost without worshipping fairytales, is so infantile.
Human beings survived for a long time without your particular brand of radical beliefs.

>>83446746
but their similarity is they're both fictional

>>83446763
there's a biological explaination for something that was understood as a miracle at the time. applying modern optics to ancient practice completely undermines ethics; you wanna start talking about slavery next?

>>83446786
>there's a biological explaination for something that was understood as a miracle at the time
So either jesus was biologically conceived without any supernatural powers involved, or that other parthenogenesis kid found by british scientists is also a miracle

>>83446742
i didn't say that faith stops being meaningful, it's just when it's purely personal, it's unfalsifiable. If it's unfalsifiable, it's basically a worthless truth to anyone who can see that.

>>83446802
the catholic church had miracles occur this year that have the potential to have a scientific explanation in the future. there are some miracles that have defied scientific explanation for hundreds of years. your false dichotomy is doing you no favors

>>83446786
>there's a biological explaination for something that was understood as a miracle at the time
There's also a lie turned into legend turned into myth, like every other story about supernatural conceptions. Jesus wasn't a female born through parthenogenesis, he was a human whose life was mythologized after his death, not that different from Mohamed.

>>83446818
>the catholic church had miracles occur
"miracles" you mean. There are lies that are unfalsifiable specially when they refer to ancient times with low historicity.
If there is a "scientific explanation" for a miracle, it's not much of a miracle. Alas, your god's miracles are very selective. It should do more of those miracles in a pediatric hospital.

>>83446776
asomalians have survived for a long time without christianity, and they're not better off because of it. survival is a little different than having 4 industrial revolutions

>>83446807
It's also unfalsifiable when It's being promoted by a powerful institution. And it's equally as worthless. That's why said institution tried to literally kill christian dissidents by the millions trying to stop them from fracturing the power of the church. That power came from brute force, not faith.

>>83446748
i certainly am invested in claiming that my religious practice is the best on earth.

i made this thread because i'm often under the impression far too many people are not nearly invested enough in finding out the truth because it's "too hard" or "it's been too long since Rome."

>>83446737
maybe for you there is. you must not understand how similar Judaism is to Babylonian religion, and why that is a good thing as well as a bad thing

>>83446839
You're not better off despite your faith, as you found yourself here of all places.
Humanity existed for a long time without your cult. It's not a necessity of your life, it's just what you were indoctrinated into.
The way you cling to your faith as if your life depended on it, is no different than a muslim kid who wholeheartedly believes his life is to serve Mohammed.

>>83446716
if it's institutionalized, can you show me where it is on the vatican website where it says it's okay?

>>83446860
If you believe in one religion over the hundreds of alternatives, and if you adhere to one denomination over the thousands of different versions of your faith, you have made a leap of faith. There's no reason or logic behind it. A religion was chosen for you during upbringing, and you stick to it because of nostalgia and feelings, not because of reason.

>>83446868
You mean how vatileaks destroyed the already tainted reputation of the church so much that a pope had to resign and abdicate for the first time after more than a thousand years?

>>83446849
power doesn't make a claim unfalsifiable. unfalsifiability is not a social force unless you're a longhoused cuckhold.

the catholics understood the severity of the situation, that is, the epistemic fracture for the individual soul, the social destabilization for the lower class, and the political rebellion of the upper class. sorry if you thought it was too harsh.

>>83446854
>certainly am invested in claiming that my religious practice is the best on earth
Zealots usually are. It would help your case if every other proponent of every other religion didn't share your same enthusiasm and conviction.
You want your faith to stand out because of your intellectual investment in it, but you're just another seller in an overcrowded market claiming to have the best product.

>>83446834
https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/approved-eucharistic-miracles-21st-century

>>83446854
The greatest arrogance of religion and its defenders is claiming ownership of truth. The truth is that you worship ancient lies. And you find that too hard to acknowledge, so you go crawling back to blind faith.

>>83446279
What miracles? Other religions claim to have miracles as well, but you'll just call that "demonic forces"

>>83446867
Jesus hung out with prostitutes, the greediest tax collectors you could possibly think of, and the demonically possessed. You can't project your insecurity about using 4chan on me. What if this was the first time I've ever used this website?

I was indoctrinated into Protestantism. I was agnostic for a decade, and then had an epiphany and came to Catholicism.

God's love is reflected in children. God is love.

>>83446910
I love how you take these at face value but you wouldn't extend the courtesy to the equally absurd claims of islamists and Hindus who report similar "miracles" every day. Statues crying honey and sugar. Water turning into blood. Scientists analyzing materials supposedly transmuted into human flesh, but never witnessing or recording the process of transmutation itself. We know forgery from how nebulous it is.

>>83446953
the epistemology of the catholic church is much more sound than the
epistemology behind hindu and islamist miracle claims.

The biggest proofs against the validity of Islam and Mormonism exist in philosophy, but they're often too dull to see it. Simply put, when their doctrine was revealed to their prophet, it was met with a sense of dreadful fear. Every angelic encounter in the Bible is that of peace because God is good. An angel of God would never inspire fear to the point of considering suicide and needing to be wrapped in blankets like Mohammad.

You can't compare the catholic church to the hindu body; they don't even have enough consensus for a real church.

>>83446948
But jesus didn't hang out with prostitutes in the brothels while he took breaks between fuckin and drinking to proselytize. Instead, he called prostitutes out of that lifestyle to follow him.
In church you could wear that mask and pretend to be a new man because of faith, healed and whole. But not on 4chan. Here we see the crack in your narrative. That your faith didn't save you, didn't improve your mental health, and despite the dopaminergic boost from stepping down on the faithless for not sharing your awesome best faith in the world, you're still as lost as any of them.

>>83446880
I'm also trying to illustrate how beneficial it is to take leaps of faith. Don't you take a leap of faith each time you ride a passenger airliner? You weren't the one that made sure that it was up to date on all it's maintenance.

>>83446978
>the epistemology of the catholic church is much more sound
It really isn't. Their claims are fanciful and unfalsifiable, and they have been known to push for miracles, accepting dubious reports at face value, believing in the fanciful claims of children who had "visions", and making a whole case of "scientifically testing" human flesh that was obviously planted by fakers. So much evidence for blood and dna, but there's yet one single instance of recorded transmutation that didn't happen in a rural church far removed from the scrutiny of science. They have been doing this for centuries by the way.

>>83446886
isn't that the appropriate response?
do you think it wasn't moral enough?
i implore you to point at an institution that is more dedicated to truth, justice, and love than the catholic church. I'm not going to entertain every instance of failure, because the catholic church isn't comprised of over a billion Jesus Christ's, just small fragments of his soul with varying closeness to the transcendent source. no one says "all Christians are perfect" more than non-Christians

>>83446901
what am I selling? I can make money off 4chan?

>>83446986
It is very beneficial for the pastors, churches and preachers making lots of money out of it. Faith is business after all.
It could be somewhat beneficial to people leading very destructive lifestyles, like criminals or people doing heavy drugs. If these people were to abandon their wrong ways for any brand of faith, that would be a plus no matter how rotted that faith was. It can't be worse than meth and robberies, can it?
But for the average citizen, these leaps of faith can be very dangerous, detrimental to their mental health and downright delusional.
Just look at you. Despite everything going wrong in your life, you still feel the need to wear this mask and proselytize here of all places. Beneficial, you say? Behind your behavior lies an obsession with zealotry and moral grandstanding, that could be almost as bad as drugs.

>>83446980
you are projecting a lot man. please stop larping as another anonymous person on the internet, you'll start embarassing yourself. did you know they call it a black mirror because you can see yourself in it?

>>83447041
You're selling one of the oldest grifts in history. You're selling tickets to the vip club. The rewards you sell, however, are only available after you die. But the price is paid now. Very convenient.

>>83447012
which of the miracles in the past 20 years were dubiously reported, fanciful machinations of a child's imagination, or faked scientific research? can you link one?

>>83447052
Faith did so much for your mental health and happiness that you're still a regular on r9k, in the exact same spot as the faithless, desperate and godless.
Seems like your faith didn't save you from anything. But it lets you wear the shroud of sanctimoniousness and act superior to others. So there you have it.

>>83447075
>which of the miracles in the past 20 years were dubiously reported
The pieces of bread turned into human flesh in these remote rural churches filled with superstitions and self serving beliefs.
So much effort put into paying groups to analyze these fragments and confirm their human origin, but not a single reliable record of the moment of transformation.
Like conspiracy theories, the most crucial details are all nebulous by design.

>>83446680
you must not follow the part at the bottom where i enumerate 4 specific paradigm shifts, or leaps of faith
daoism as a concept is a cosmic-moral order. the quote from zhuangzi had nothing to do with a monotheistic creator, but you didn't even complain about that. zhuangzi was intimately familiar with animism and paganism, so he was able to percieve God more closely upon contemplation and reasoning. Your chud rage is showing

God I wish I didn't have to share a world with christfags

>>83447034
An appropriate response would be admittance of guilt, which he never did.
Abdicating was literally the coward move, to hide in the shadows while another person has to clean up the mass after 1500 years of institutionalized altar boy raping.
They literally moved predators around and silenced victims, ensuring pedophile priests could abuse hundreds of kids in a lifetime. They are yet to acknowledge their crimes or compensate victims.

>>83447089
what if I love you

>>83447117
sure, there's christian churches that say they get miracles, and the pope rightly doesn't recognize them. you're quite the hasty overgeneralizer, aren't you

>>83447045
you robots don't understand why someone would stoop so low to your level as to dignify you. i'm trying to do what my God did for me

>>83447137
It's a fake love, though. Conditional. Self serving. Egotistical. You "love" me enough to tell me about how screwed I am if I don't believe in the same things you do.
It's not real love. You love your religion maybe, and the rewards it promises. That's primary. Feelings for other people are totally secondary to your beliefs. Their own beliefs are regarded by you as fake, and only you are on the right side of truth.
That's not really love, anon. That's despotism. That's what it looks like when a decaying empire builds an oppressive religion to rule over the masses.

>>83447166
You pretend you're not really "one of the robots" but just came here to proselytize. In church you could get away with that lie. But not on 4chan.
Your whole rhetoric is built upon the idea that you're lowering your high, holy self to appease to the inferior heretics, and how much better of a human that makes you, and how we should be thankful for your proselytism and your prepotency.

>>83447166
god didn't do anything for you, though. It didn't even save you from this place. Your prayers are unanswered.
The only thing god does for you is giving you an ego boost for allowing you to act superior to others now that you're a part of the high court. For many people that alone is enough of a reason to believe.

>>83446913

i already said this

>>83446622

>>83447058
what's it cost to be charitable? what's the reward?

>>83447147
>there's christian churches that say they get miracles
That's all of them actually. If you actually attended you would know how church thrives on these lies of supposed miracles that are never recorded and always nebulous and useless in nature.
That's why your religion is so keen on proving pieces of bread turned into meat, but not so keen on showing all the miraculous healings of children dying from cancer in a pediatric hospital. You will never see a miracle that's actually impactful being recorded, because these don't exist. It's always rural churches claiming that hosts turned red. Forgery at its finest. Keep it nebulous and unfalsifiable.

>>83447232
You're not being charitable now, though. The reward you are getting now is feeling superior to others non believers, claiming that superiority and acting in zealot ways. It's purely an ego boost for religious nuts.
The real reward however is all the money you gave to church. There's nothing holier and more profitable than faith.

>>83447174
that's not what the greek word Jesus uses means when he talks about what kind of love we're to give.

we're called specifically to the highest form of love, self-sacrificial love, like the love Jesus showed us by dying on the cross for us.

what part of making a thread on 4chan is self serving? do you think i get an ego boost from this? i'd believe that's why you do it

>>83447223
It takes a religious type of ignorance to say one meaningless sentence and think it's actually an argument.
You're not the owner of any truths, but religion lets you play that role and you love it. All arrogance and conceit disguised as gracious divine mercy.

>>83447134
the pope had no idea, and his opinion on its occurrence is well known. i would statistically be more worried about teachers raping in the USA public education system than priests in churches. they're probably more rapey everywhere else anyways.

>>83447190
atheism is embarassing. /r9k/ is very athiest, and independent from that, /r9k/ is very embarassing. it's not completely independent from that, but it has got multifaceted aspects. i'm trying to talk about this as simply as possible. if you're saying i'm being too mean about being right if my God is so nice, grow up

>>83447261
>that's not what the greek word Jesus uses means
That's literally the "love" you are giving in this thread. Jesus said a lot of things, many of which are hateful, egotistical and self absorbed in nature. There's a great separation between what the jew Jesus "meant" and what you take from it. His original meanings are long lost. The reality of your faith is in full display during this entire thread: completely uninterested in "loving thy neighbor" in anyway beyond advertising your faith and your moral superiority

>>83447200
God has done a ton for me. I haven't shared too much about my personal life on this board, have I? What gave you the idea God hasn't done anything for me?

>>83447272
>the pope had no idea about the century old church's tradition of altar boy raping
And here we see the religious "truth champion" quickly change to lies and deceit, to defend the superorganism of his church. We have witnessed how faith breeds corruption before our very eyes.

>>83447233
every catholic church does a miracle every sunday. you should go one time and just watch. i know i'm asking a robot to touch grass, but that's what it takes to not be a failure

>>83447252
i'm being incredibly charitable by showing you the truth. sorry if your feelings got hurt on /r9k/

>>83447309
>god did so much for me I'm still proselytizing in the incel board
god did nothing for you except for giving you an excuse to be a lying zealot.
Keep your falsehood to church where it belongs. In here everyone can see how lost you are. Your faith amounted to nothing. It was in vain.

>>83447323
Your fake miracles require "faith" precisely because they aren't real

>>83447296
Jesus's original meanings are not long lost, you're just not knowledgeable enough to know that. that's what i'm here for

>>83447330
>I'm being incredibly charitable by telling you how right I am
The arrogance of religion in full display

>>83447265
It takes a non-religious type of person to be told something earnestly and believe it's meaningless.
If you don't understand why faith is intellectual, then maybe you don't understand faith as well as some people who are able to recognize that their whole existence revolves around it.

>>83447346
Even Jesus' own words are lost, let alone their meanings. You worship letters written decades after his death, whose earliest surviving manuscripts are from centuries after the events they narrate.
But your arrogance and proselytizing are pretty congruent with the religion as it was created for that purpose

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>>83447374
we get it bro, you're conscious in the present moment. can we agree on something any time soon or are we gonna keep nooticing

>>83447384
Faith is intellectual is s pretty meaningless statement anon, any idea is intellectual, born from your mind.
Faith indeed is intellectual, and it's also based on fiction and in vain. The faithful and the faithless have the same end.

>>83447397
apostolic succession addresses the validity of scripture

>>83447406
Religion is a mask you wear to proselytize and pretend you have some enlightenment that others don't. A fraud you could only keep up at church, not on 4chan. There's no enlightenment in your words, only zealotry. Which is the definition of your religion

>>83447316
i don't know about vatileaks, you got me there. I never claimed the pope couldn't sin, let alone never be wrong. He's Jesus Christ's substitute, not Jesus Christ

>>83447411
That's how you cope with worshipping fiction written down centuries after the lies they narrate took place. The apostles were illiterate, none of them wrote anything. Oral tradition subverted their lies and cemented it into myth.

>>83447332
the church of /r9k/ seems to have really enlightened you. you're so perceptive.

>>83447424
>Ignorant about the greatest scandal in the history of the church, factual evidences of the corruption of the church he worships
Oh of course, the hallmark of faith: factual ignorance

>>83447341
it's literally the realest shit ever. i'm not gonna try and see how many excuses you can come up with to not go outside

>>83447446
and despite all enlightenment that hebrew mythology gave you, you're still here lmao. Your faith was in vain after all.

>>83447454
They're so fake they need blind worship to be believed in. These miracles can't stand facts and scrutiny.

>>83447456
it's not my fault if it's in vain. it's you who i'm trying to get accept it, not me. you are the one making it vain

>>83447422
you're accusing me of being mean but not of being wrong. doesn't ben shapiro say facts don't care about your feelings? don't robots love that guy? i get you guys and NPCs mixed up

>>83447451
yeah, faith is used in the absence of facts for action. you don't sound as smart as you think you do

>>83447437
over the span of what, a few decades? while they were all still alive? if half the shit they said is true and i was them, i'd remember it clear as day for the rest of my life. i just believe all of it

>>83447475
it's your fault for believing in these myths like they had any substance beyond the hubris and ignorance and pride of ancient jews.

>>83447474
>>83447223
You're gonna have to read some parts of this thread to catch up, I already addressed this

>>83447475
your faith is in vain regardless of what I think. It didn't save you, it didn't change you, it did nothing for you except for letting you embark on power trips and claim ownership of the truth as well as participating in some sort of divine court. Your faith is purely self serving and emotional, not factual.

>>83447534
With non arguments that betray the superficiality of your beliefs.

>>83447501
Faith is just a word to describe your blind allegiance to myths and lies you grew up with. Of course lies thrive in the absence of facts.

>>83447542
daijoubu, yotsuba-sensei, watashi going to make you proudo desu~!

what the hell are you on about "it didn't save you or change you" like a shonen protagonist. okay naruto.

>>83447553
can you read them and then debunk them epicly then for me please

>>83447488
Oh you are wrong alright, the "meanness" is just an integral part of abrahamic religions. Facts indeed don't care about your feelings. That's why you reap no benefits of your blind allegiance to jewish folklore, and will eventually succumb to the same fate as the non faithful.

>>83447587
what would you rather be? a fat retarded agrarian pot smoking pagan?

>>83447512
>over the span of what, a few decades?
The earliest surviving manuscripts of the gospels come from the 200's actually. It doesn't take that long to make up a lie, though. It doesn't take longer than one day. Like saying that a dead man came back to life but disappeared.

>>83447600
okay but you believe that Augustus Caesar existed, right? there's quantitatively less proof he existed

>>83447593
I'd rather be that a thousand times before being a christian or any other flavor of abrahamist.
You can keep proselytizing here if you want, but like I said, on 4chan your veil of moral grandstanding is transparent. Everyone can see through it and the first thought that comes to mind is
>what faith did for this dude as we stand together in the cesspit of the internet?
And the answer is nothing

>>83446618
it has to be permanent because Jesus is God, and his church is eternal

>>83447616
>existed
The existence of jesus is one thing. His superpowers are another entirely. The difference between fact and fabrication.
I don't believe Cesar had magical powers.

>>83447625
jesus is dead, and his church's most impacting legacy is raping children systematically

>>83447629
the apostles did, and 10/12 of them were killed over it. is that not convincing?

>>83447582
Faith being intellectual doesn't make it any good, specially when you have faith in something bad like the bible. It's an intellectual exercise at blindness and obedience, not intelligence.

>>83447636
the church's most impactful legacy is probably something more along the lines of universities and hospitals, but what your exhibiting is a classic negativity bias! have you ever heard of that?

>>83447578
your faith had no benefits or positive impacts in your life. In fact your life would be better if you weren't a slave to hebrew mythology

>>83447618
i don't feel stifled at all. frankly, if you read any of the reply chains, it either becomes so retarded i stop replying, or i'm the last one to reply. faith has done a ton here today

>>83447293
>atheism
There's a plethora of religions to choose from, each one as fictional and arbitrary as the faith you were raised into.

>>83447121
>daoism as a concept is a cosmic-moral order
Daoism is not concerned with morality
>quote from zhuangzi had nothing to do with a monotheistic creator
Then why did you put him in the philosophic monotheism?

>>83447672
The only thing faith did here today is feed your own delusion that you own the truth. Feeding delusions is what faith is for.

>>83447651
Faith isn't blind obedience when it's grounded in reason. There's a difference between reasoning to understand truth and rationalizing what you want to believe; only the former is genuinely intellectual

>>83447674
yeah that's why I believe the true religion instead of the one I grew up with. I grew up protestant and was agnostic for 10 years

>>83447709
Your faith isn't grounded in reason, though. It's grounded on leaps of blind belief that defy logic and reason, putting ancient texts above scrutiny.
There's nothing reasonable about it. You believe in ancient literature in spite of reason, not because of it.

>>83447516
the only way you'll learn to fall in love with jews and stop poisoning yourself hoping they'll all die is if you learn to love Jesus. Jesus argued with them tirelessly in life, and was ultimately killed by them. They are quite possibly the hardest group of people to love on earth, but through Christ you can learn to love them and be free of that hatred

>>83447657
Mate civilizations before christianity already built institutions for knowledge and medicine, that would be greatly thwarted by the church's anti scientific practices.
What is specially unique to the catholic church is how fiercely they protected pedophile priests and allowed them a system of multiple vulnerable victims for centuries.
And even today blind believers like you are more inclined to defend the crimes of the church rather than acknowledge them.

File: hegel philosophical scien(...).png (1.02 MB, 1290x910)

1.02 MB PNG

>>83446160
I took the idealist pill. Hegel was right

>>83447746
i acknowledge them. the church did evil things. it wasn't systemic, however, because it all occurred despite what the doctrine says. the institution itself represents the structure that protects said doctrine, so the contradiction isn't as much of an indication of belief as dogma.

>>83447749
if hegel was right, that's just greek philosophy's logos, pathos and ethos. the foundation of western thought, preserved carefully by the Catholic church

>>83447639
People give their lives for all sorts of lies, propaganda and misinformation even today, let alone 2000 years ago.
There are no direct accounts of these men, all illiterate by the way. There's not even historical evidence of their deaths. Whatever oral tradition they passed on, was corrupted already and got further corrupted with the centuries until it was written down more than a 100 years after the events they narrate.
he same faith of these persecuted apostles would start persecuting others a few centuries later.

>>83447724
what makes you think there's no scrutiny present in the halls of each and every catholic monastery on earth

>>83447767
>preserved
Not really preserved, that's a lie from church apologists. The church never sought to preserve that knowledge, only to hoard it, control it, and keep it from spreading. They knew that the moment the population got ahold of knowledge, they would lose all power, which is exactly what happened.
The catholic church literally delayed western development for centuries of dark intellectual stagnation.

>>83447776
>what makes you think there's no scrutiny present in the halls of each and every catholic monastery on earth
First the systematic altar boy raping.
Second, the belief in ancient fairytales, magic and folklore without any substance

>>83447755
You didn't acknowledge these crimes actually, you even defended the obviously complicit pope.
You are literally more invested in defending the institution of your faith, than analyzing it critically and holding it accountable for heinous crimes.
The church didn't do evil things, the church is evil, and so is the bible. You worship both of those things, being completely complicit in their corruption

>>83447770
their accounts corroborate and that suggests that even if the legend of the Gospel was originally oral tradition, there was a consistent core of tradition preserved before it was written down. if you knew anything about the seriousness of Hebrew oral tradition, you would know there's nothing more serious and valid from the ancient era

>>83447799
is there no scrutiny present in the treatment of children in the public education system in the USA? they have a tendency to have 10x more rapes, and the per capita data doesn't make it any better

>>83447755
>I acknowledged it
>It wasn't systematic
Lmao even in the very post you claim to acknowledge their crimes, you still downplay their crimes and defend them.
Pedophilia in the church wasn't just systematic, it was worldwide, with scandals following the church wherever they went, and this went on for centuries.
You are exemplifying before our very eyes the corruption that is born with faith.

>>83447788
do you see the church's suppression of gnosticism as unjust? as an example, they made Jesus's divinity unspecial; gnosis could be achieved by anyone. this went against christian doctrine, and was seen as harmful

>>83447813
what about saying "i acknowledge them" wasn't acknowledging them...

>>83447826
>Whataboutism
You could have a dossier denouncing every school in the country, and it wouldn't come close to the damage that the catholic church did for centuries of child exploitation.
Just last year a priest killed himself after being caught red handed raping a boy, and guess what? His bishop had moved him around more than 5 times before after allegations of abuse surfaced.
This was the usual practice of the catholic church for hundreds of years and it still happens today.

>>83447833
is there evidence of the catholic church's pedophile ring in the same way there's evidence of the jewish pedophile ring? is a picture of jeffrey epstein at the vatican good enough to tell that the pope was in on it too?

>>83447755
The doctrine puts absolute power in these institutions, opening the door for the abuse. It's not just a corrupted church, the religion is corrupted at its core. >>83447843

>>83447843
>It wasn't systematic
That part.
You didn't even know about vatileaks, lmao. Complete evidence of the highest ranking members of the church doing everything in their power to conceal abuse, protect pedophiles and silence victims.
Your faith comes from a place of ignorance.

>>83447767
>preserved
The Catholic Church banished Aristotle's works and many other Greek philosophers as heretic texts. It was the Islamic world that preserved it until it reached back to the West through Thomas Aquinas, who was subsequently condemned and Aristotle works were banned as they promoted placing reason over faith, thus "enslaving the supreme authority by the bounds of reason". During the dark ages, the Catholic Church explicitly sought to hide away or destroy knowledge. You have to be indoctrinated to not see this.

>>83447863
Literally s scandal so vile and so widespread that the pope himself resigned, without any modern precedent to do so.
>Is ignorant about all the vatileaks evidence of the abuse his church did
Typical christian. A religion to favour abuse and abusers.

>>83447863
You mean the jewish like the dead jew on a stick you worship? Or like the literal jewish god you pray to?

>>83447853
i don't remember the pope, let alone jesus, ever saying that abusing children is part of the faith. scandals and failures of individuals within institutions don't undermine the truth that the institution maintains. wouldn't you have to also hold colleges to this same standard? why do you believe anything you learned from elementary school if elementary schools have a tendency to get kids raped?

>>83447869
>>83447878
>>83447890

>>83447902
lets consolidate. i'm feeling a bit like thomas aquinas

>>83447818
>their accounts corroborate
There are literally hundreds of differences between the accounts of the gospels, enough to tell you how fragmented and fabricated the original oral tradition was.
As time progressed, we can literally see in real time the gospels becoming more anti jewish, and putting more divine power into Jesus' own person, as it reflects the way the myth was being shaped and changed to fit the narrative of Rome. A religion for slaves.

>>83447902
This isn't a failure of the institution, this is a fundamental failure of the bible that puts unlimited power into those institutions. The same bible that vouched for slavery but never ever mentioned the minimal age of consent.
The reason why that is, is because the bible itself is corrupted and created to benefit the corruption of institutions.
That's why even today, churches are still the most corrupted institutions there are. They more than once corroborated with genocide, exploitation, slavery, all justified within the bible itself.

>>83447900
hate to break it to you, but the jews might be a little "special". a little spiritually gifted. maybe a little bit more aware. i thought that would be the easiest part for people on here to understand

>>83447902
>elementary schools have a tendency to get kids raped?
Did the leaders of schools move pedophile teachers around different schools so they could keep raping kids? Did they do that for centuries?
The institution is rotted.

>>83447947
>Person who worships jew god and jew prophet is a zionist
Imagine my shock

>>83447837
Mate the greatest injustice was the roman empire paying good money for the bible to be written down and disseminated instead of letting that evil book be forgotten in time.
But they were cunning. Faith is good business. You don't worship the wealthiest church in existence by coincidence.

>>83447881
what's a result of brainwashing is this myth about the suppression of information in the dark ages.

Aristotle was never universally banned by the Church, nor was Aquinas condemned for subordinating faith to reason. Temporary restrictions on certain texts were academic safeguards, not rejections of philosophy.

Two examples of an dogmatic safeguards that weren't examples of the adoption of a new idea were both times the pope has ever spoken ex cathedra.

>>83447918
they're called synoptic because of how they specifically corroborate to an uncanny degree

>>83447818
>the seriousness of Hebrew oral tradition
The seriousness with which a lie is passed down generations? Yeah that's the core of the problem. A lie must be invented only once, as it was with every jewish myth. They were masters of trickery after all.
>There was nothing more serious
Only for someone with blind faith. Nothing from the ancient area was committed to truth, much less folklore.

>>83447962
i don't know where you got the idea i support the colonization of palestine. i typed none of those things

>>83447996
It's not a myth. The church literally fought their hardest fight to supplant knowledge and prevent it from spreading. They controlled literacy. They persecuted independent thought and literature.
You are so brainwashed and so indoctrinated, it's not a coincidence you are defending literally the pedophile church

>>83447942
who do you think made the bible? martin luther? moses?

>>83448004
The only thing they corroborate is on Jesus' resurrection. They are literally filled with contradictions and disagreement precisely because they are corrupted versions of an unreliable fanciful myth.
Don't forget John's gospel though, it outright rewrites everything.

>>83447984
the wealth can be seen as an reflection of the glory of God, and it can be rationalized as a contradiction to Jesus saying that one "can't serve God and [also] wealth". maybe if you asked why that contradiction is there instead of thinking you knew why, you'd be closer to the truth

>>83447951
so your saying that you'd play defense for the public education system's approach at minimizing the abuse of children? are you sure about that?

>>83448053
>why that contradiction is there
Because the church, was and always has been corrupt and Jesus teachings are never taken into consideration when money is on the table, you have a whole section of christianity that bases faith on money, while the oldest church literally hoards immense wealth.
You're not close to the truth, anon. You're far from it. You are just spewing the religion you were indoctrinated into. It's just ancient propaganda.

>>83448024
Scribes not at all interested in truth or fact checking, based on oral tradition subverted from the very beginning. No miracle happened. No virgin got pregnant. It was all a lie from the get go.

>>83448013
what other trans-regional institution do you think would have been better suited for the job to transcend time which is the message of God to humanity? how would it have been done better? all i'm hearing is how it's not true. which part of Jesus's message isn't true?

>>83448062
If I was keen on defending abusers, I would do it like you did to the catholic church. That's your script, not mine. Who unified the power and moral superiority of the same institution that raped kids for centuries? You did

>>83448023
i meant this one for you

>>83448013
my bad, i meant to say something more along the lines that calling it lies because their jews is anti-intellectual

>>83448077

>>83447639
do people die to preserve lies? i don't think so

>>83448100
Which institution would be perfect to propagandize a myth with oppressive power and control the population with the power of religious indoctrination from birth, as it happened to you? The church. They did something that had already been done before. From ancient hebrews all the way to ancient egyptians, religion is a tool by the powerful to control and subvert the masses. The catholic church was a nearly perfect tool of oppression. Nearly. Even the mighty beast of the Vatican lost most of its power after the reform, when Luther found out that anyone can claim to speak from god.

>>83448105
i'm trying to tell you that people getting away with raping kids when they're in charge isn't a unique phenomenon, but i'm sorry that the quantitative amount of sins the church has committed in your eyes has stacked so high you can't forgive them. they would never say the same thing about you

>>83448100
the bible isn't a message from god, anon. It's entirely human made mythos. That's why everything about it is so flawed.
You say what institution would transcend time, well clearly none did. The catholic church has failed greatly at that. Less than 1 billion catholics today. More muslims than christians. Billions and billions of non christians. A fragmented church. Clearly this god chosen institution to unify his message failed miserably.

>>83448153
I'm trying to tell you that you worship a very, very corrupted church with multiple scandals in its history, the systematic raping of children you downplay and fail to acknowledge, is just one of those.
This fact is like a foretold prophecy, that you would fall victim to indoctrination from powerful yet rotted institutions: It's the same thing with the bible

>>83448144
with power comes great responsibility. sorry you've never done anything meaningful in your life so that you don't know what it's like to have something go horribly wrong or wonderfully right

>>83448153
>they would never say the same thing about you
They have literally excommunicated girls for aborting a fetus born from the rape of their own dads, in this decade lmao.

>>83448202
i don't see a church out there that doesn't have a single child being raped, i don't see the fragmented occurrences coupled with the length of time the church has been around as any meaningful sum of wrongdoing, and i don't see how that means that there isn't a single church out there that's good let alone the best

>>83448223
it's the punishment in canon law for abortion. do you get mad when people are punished according to the law when the law is broken? you must be pretty low on the spectrum of truth in religious practice if you don't!

>>83448204
If one was tasked to create a religion perfect for subverting and controlling the masses with oppressive power, the bible and the church would fit perfectly.
Clearly christianity has gone horribly wrong and your life is so lacking you must attribute some meaning to the religion you grew up into.
What a lucky individual you are. From all the possibilities, you were born into that one family who taught you the correct truth. Coincidence or selection bias?

>>83448183
can you tell me one of the flaws in the catholic bible?

>>83448258
>which part of Jesus's message isn't true?
That he was god incarnate born from a virgin, that he had magical powers and performed miracles, that he could save anyone from a death he himself succumbed to, that he resurrected, that he is the truth or the way, that he is a direct descendant of david, do you want more?
All lies, all fabrications. In truth, he was an apocalyptic jewish rabbi who probably suffered from some sort of mental illness that commonly go with delusions of grandeur and maybe psychosis making he hear voices which he mistook for godly intervention.

>>83448040
that's wrong, sorry, the synoptic gospels corroborate on 235 different occasions

>>83448258
>it's the punishment in canon law for abortion.
I'm sorry, so when you said earlier
>the quantitative amount of sins the church has committed in your eyes has stacked so high you can't forgive them. they would never say the same thing about you
Was that a lie? Is there a upper limit for how much they can forgive and is that aborting the dad rape baby?
What a relief that they can forgive the pedophile father for raping his daughter, but the 10yo girl getting an abortion just crossed a limit.
Do you listen to yourself?

>>83448312
And they disagree on hundreds more given how unreliable and fictional their narrative is.

>>83446160
the amount of posts that have accused me, OP, of just doing this to inflate my self ego are funny for two reasons

if they're admitting that it does effectively inflate my ego, that's kind of like a subconscious concession that whatever i have to say is right, or at the very least, they're too impotent to prevent it from happening

another way is how it is a mirror to their own feelings about religion. they feel superior in their atheism typically, so the only reason i'd be talking about religion is for moral superiority, not for something as petty as love

>>83448266
Only one? You will use the power of semantics, delusions and blind worship to justify and downplay these flaws, just like you did to pedophilia in the church.
The bible condones genocide, multiple times. Rape, multiple times. It has no instance of god punishing a man raping his daughter, but has a lovely scenery of god punishing two daughters for seducing their father. Very believable.
It condones slavery, both in the new and old testament. It condones murdering babies if they're your enemies' babies. Women are second class citizens at best, bridal slaves at worst. It has no mention of pedophilia being frowned upon or outlawed because the authors were pedophiles obviously.
But of course my favourite part is how the creator of the universe asks you for money lmao. That is certainly the cherry on top

>>83448261
I was agnostic for 10 years before I became a Catholic, and when I was a kid I was Protestant. you can search this thread for the word "Protestant" to see how i've consistently said this. you're larping as me

>>83448336
confession functionally removes the eternal sin of guilt, it doesn't stop the temporal punishment of sin. some sins deserve the punishment of excommunication. i'm sure if you had a church, it wouldn't have an excommunication mechanism. it would just keep all the rapists in the church. you are painfully inconsistent

>>83448369
You are doing this to inflate your ego, though. Your whole rhetoric could be summarized by
>Look how kind I am, taking my time to show you how right I am
You are a severely indoctrinated person and maybe at church you could pretend that your faith served you greatly, that faith saved your life in every way.
But here on 4chan we can see beyond this facade. You're just another lost soul. The blind trying to lead the blind.
Proselytizing has become your drug.

>>83448398
>I was [indoctrinated into Christianity from infancy]
Yeah we could tell. You talk the talk of sunday school kid propagandized by faith

>>83448346
where is a contradiction between matthew, mark, and luke? how many can you find? are they easy to find?

>>83448414
>Rationalizing the heinous acts of the church
Typical.
Mercy for the pedophile rapist father, but no mercy for his child daughter who doesn't want to birth an incest baby at 10.
I love how the church has its priorities.
From everything that has been said in this thread, it's the catholic's own words that paint the darkest picture of the church.

>>83448416
can you give me an antidote? can you please prove me wrong? i'm not asking to be told i'm a liar, i'm asking to be shown a lie

>>83446160
>my jew beliefs are better than your semi-jew beliefs
ngmi

>>83448438
>conveniently leaving out john
Its fakery is too much for you to bear?
Each gospel paints a different picture of the events taking place with differences that suit an unreliable myth. From mark to luke and mathew, each one adds a layer of anti jew sentiment blaming them each time more for Jesus' crucifixion. You can see in real time the change in the narrative being developed as the years went on and early christians tried to distance themselves from jews each time more. That's just one of the differences, though. These accounts are highly imperfect and incongruent because they were fictionalized.

>>83448453
>can you please prove me wrong?
More? Your claims of knowing god are unfalsifiable purposefully, so you can never face the facts. You can't prove a negative. Can I go back and show you jesus died? You will just say he disappeared for 2k years.
I can prove, however, that in a time of great urgent need, when push comes to shove, like if a loved one was dying in front of you, you won't run to the church looking for prayers, you will rush to the hospital to get science's help.
When it really matters, like when it really really matters in a life or death situation, your faith in god will be totally surpassed by your faith in facts. For a brief internal moment you will acknowledge the powerlessness of your faith, as you rush to get things done by actual health care workers. You will know in the depth of your heart, that your faith is unreliable and that your best chances are following evidence based reality.

>>83448414
>it would just keep all the rapists in the church.
That would just be a typical catholic church, no? The pedophile father wasn't excommunicated, no pedophile is excommunicated, no murderer as well.
But the 10yo girl raped by her father was, lmao.

>>83448452
You are collapsing mercy, forgiveness, and discipline into a single category, and Catholic theology does not treat them that way. Forgiveness has no upper limit, and reconciliation is always possible. That means forgiveness is available even to the worst sinners.

Excommunication is not a declaration that someone is unforgivable, nor is it a reward for power or a punishment for vulnerability. It is a juridical signal about the gravity of an act, not a judgment of a persons moral worth.

In the scenario you are invoking, a raped child is not considered better off dead than giving birth, and killing the baby in the womb is also understood as a grave sin. Within this moral framework, it is seen as a mercy not to subject a ten-year-old to an abortion and instead to allow the pregnancy to continue.

I am taught that forgiveness is available even to the worst sinners, and condemning the entire moral framework because it distinguishes guilt from mercy does not make the vulnerable safer. It simply replaces one absolutism with another.

>>83448498
the word synoptic comes from church tradition. john isn't synoptic. please read more

>>83448568
i'm trying to see what the hell you believe besides in your own ability to recognize right from wrong. it doesn't seem like you know anything else outside of that

>>83448579
But they didn't excommunicate the pedophile rapist father, lmao. Just the daughter. Putting the gravity of the act of raping your child daughter above the gravity of said daughter refusing to birth an incest rape baby. Those are their Priorities. That's the hierarchy of gravity in place
And you keep defending them just like you did when the topic at hand was pedophilia in the church.
We are seeing first hand an example of the corrupting power of faith

>>83448579
>scenario
It happened in 2022, mate. It's just one of many examples of little girls being excommunicated for the same reason, while the rapist fathers get a pass. It's not a "scenario". It's the active reality of the catholic church worldwide.
You are once again downplaying their evil and corruption. That's all faith is good for

>>83448592
John is still a gospel but you know that it is so thematically different from the other 3 that it's impossible to defend gospel congruence if you bring it up.
Your ability to undermine one of the 4 supposed holy books who are the only remaining reports of Jesus' life is so telling. Anything to suit your crumbling faith.

>>83448579
>it is seen as a mercy not to subject a ten-year-old to an abortion and instead to allow the pregnancy to continue
>Letting you birth the offspring of your rapist father is actually a mercy
Up is down. Evil is good. Suffering is happiness.
From everyone in the thread, you painted the worst picture of catholicism. I could not have derived a better explanation for how your faith and church serve evil if I had tried.

>>83448611
>>83448626
>>83448675
if you're all such demiurgic prophets, write down God's law yourself. you very clearly all believe there is a moral code that governs the universe. come up with something better than what the catholic church has. or at least mormons

>>83448579
>and condemning the entire moral framework because it distinguishes guilt from mercy does not make the vulnerable safer.
It does, m8. Telling a child victim of incestuous rape to not carry on the pregnancy does make them safer in every way, even physiologically because of the dangers of child pregnancy.
Telling them that they will suffer a negative consequence of their abortion, that the pedophile rapist father won't suffer from his incestuous rape, is painting a very clear picture of which one of those two is a worse crime. It definitely puts the victim in jeopardy.
You are literally defending one absolutism over the other, but you are defending the evil, with no nuance to criticize your evil doing church whatsoever. You are doing a great job exposing their evil though.
You didn't bother to ask me for a source on that "scenario" because you know it happens multiple times per year lmao.

>>83448733
>you very clearly all believe there is a moral code that governs the universe
That's literally what you believe though.
As usual with conservatives, your every accusation is a confession in disguise.
You don't need universal morality to see the evil in punishing a girl raped by her father and not punishing the father

>>83448733
>come up with something better than what the catholic church has
People have done that already and we call it law.
Keep defending pedophiles

>>83448763
so you think there's somewhere on earth that it's okay?

>>83448806
Inside the catholic church

>>83448769
and who's better at the law than jews? what's better at defending them being pedophiles than their law? their law explicitly has exceptions to allow child rape and have it not be evil, and catholics don't

>>83448819
what makes you think catholics in a global sense are okay with it?

>>83448841
If you google it you will find the catholic church has repeatedly excommunicated little girls who were raped for aborting the pregnancy, while doing nothing to the rapist. Many times the rapist was literally the father. That happened in my country so many times already, it's not an isolated incident. It happened already all around the world, it's their common practice.
A moral framework where there are more consequences for a pregnant child aborting the offspring of rape, than consequences for raping a child.
Typical catholicism.

>>83448826
The bible literally contain the jewish law in its core and you literally worship a dead jew making up new laws to defend even more pedophiles now that every sin is forgivable.
The bible literally never mentions age of consent or anything else resembling condemnation of pedophilia.
You are literally worshipping jewish mythology

>>83448885
a single point of moral failure means that the whole institution is worthless. i guess bad apples really do spoil the whole bunch. the act of scandalizing the church is considered a sin, but i guess cuz people scandalize the church it can't be trusted. i think i'm going to be athiest now

>>83448907
why are the jews so special then? if the jews are in charge of Christianity and 2nd temple rabbinical judaism, what's the goal of the manipulation? they're in charge of the two political parties in america, and their agenda is quite clear. can you break it down for me?

>>83448916
If you're divided between the two absolutes, the institution being all bad or all good, clearly the "all bad" is the lesser evil here. Otherwise you are defending their heinous crimes and practices not only now, but throughout the ages.
Christians don't compromise on moral ambiguity and nuance, they literally believe in a myth that says whoever disagrees with them will suffer forever.

>>83448956
>why are the jews so special then
You tell me, you literally worship one. All abrahamic religions are rotted at their jewish core. Jesus was a jew and a cunning deceitful trickster like most of them

>>83448916
>the act of scandalizing the church is considered a sin, but i guess cuz people scandalize the church it can't be trusted.
It can't be trusted because the rule book they follow, the bible, is evil, corrupted and heinous.

>>83449007
if i'm worshipping jewish mythology, and christianity is working towards the same ends and judaism, that's an extraordinary claim. i need you to tell me how that's possible, it would literally be crazy if it was true

>>83449050
>christianity is working towards the same ends and judaism
Do you have any idea how many christian republicans vouch for Israel? Are you this delusional or detached?

>>83449033
it's 66 books written over the span of 1,100 years that tell one cohesive metanarrative. it contains evil events, and it contains primal and crude old ways of life like slavery. the bible isn't evil; are you sure /r9k/ isn't reddit

>>83449071
i don't know many catholics that vouch for Israel, no. the pope advocates for the persecuted christians in Gaza, actually. which one of us is the deluded one again?

>>83449081
72 books, sorry, that was an old protestant memory