>I'm depressed so that means everyone is suffering and humanity needs to die outDo projecting antinatalist faggots realize how retarded they sound?
>>83842078our society is controlled by satanistic paedophiles who eat intestines on an island. whats even the point anymore man.
i believe he's referring to the act of discontinuing a phone conversation
>>83842078>"existence is... le suffering!">refuses to kill themselves to escape sufferingWhy are antinatalists this?
>>83842078>Life is great for me so that means it's obviously going to be great for my children and even if it's not, who cares about them? It's all about meIt's no more or less retarded than what you believe
>>83842123Self preservation instinct is probably one of the worst things about life. It forces you to keep living out of fear.
>>83842078Humanity can live I don't care.I wish I was never born.
>>83842123You can recognize life is not a good thing while also being subject to irrational survival instincts.>>83842078The argument David Benatar makes isn't that he's depressed. It's that there's an asymmetry between how suffering vs. pleasure work.The absence of pleasure isn't particularly bad. It's just neutral.But the absence of suffering is actively good, which is why euthanasia exists for animals who are in pain for example. Most everyone recognizes it's a good thing to put a dog to sleep when he or she is miserable from a disease that can't be treated.Also, his argument isn't that everyone should be killed. It's just that people should stop creating new lives, since not existing isn't going to cause harm to that potential person (you need to exist in the first place in order to feel like you missed out on anything), and by not existing to begin with you spare a great deal of harm in the same way you'd spare a sick dog further harm by helping with euthanasia.
>>83842261wow, did he really invent Buddhism?
>>83842078antinatalists can be easily refutated by just asking them what's the hold up on them killing themselves. Not trying to be mean, I think its a fair a question, they are free to kill themselves at any time they wish but they dont.
>>83842078I just don't want my kids to pay a subscription fee for oxygen, while at the same time not being able to find work since a robotic arm replaced them
theres already lots of people, you must be a selfish sicko if you wanna birth another robot who wish he never existed>Hey baby lets have a kid>that'd be nice hubby, he will suffer his whole life wishing he was never born and we will force him to get a job and slave away for the rest of his life because we are doing it for him, we birthed him to slave away for him
>>83842078His argument is valid and sound, if you're an atheist.
>>83842278There are similarities but I don't think Gautama Buddha ever made the argument of asymmetry for pleasure vs. pain.With Buddhism the argument is more that pleasure seeking and pain avoidance are both caused by craving and that you need to follow the eightfold path to learn how to attain liberation from that craving and the cycle of death and rebirth. I think Gautama Buddha wouldn't really agree with David Benatar's suggestion of everyone not having children since Buddhism teaches rebirth so if every human stopped having kids people would just be reborn as other kinds of earthly biological organisms or hungry ghosts or hell plane dwellers etc.
>>83842281>antinatalists can be easily refutated by just asking them what's the hold up on them killing themselves.I don't want to upset parents. I had close people dying and it was very painful, I don't want to subject my parents to such but double, suicide is perceived very bad. They suffured enough already when thier son ended as loser.When they are gone I have no obligations I believe that tie me to this world.I am sorry I was born, I was I wasn't.
>>83842326>argument of asymmetry for pleasure vs. pain.Absence of pleasure is a bad thing, that's why healthy people seek pleasure. neurotic overthinkers are not healthy
>>83842281>antinatalists can be easily refutated by just asking them what's the hold up on them killing themselvesWishing for non existence isn't the same as being able to put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. Human beings are forced to have a sense of self preservation as a consequence of being a living thing.
>>83842307Pro birth is normal stance if you can set up children for happiness. Too bad many potential parents have no idea if they can do that. And many potential parents just ignore their deficiencies as parents and just do it anyway, these are worst.
>>83842078Personally I'm a hedonist. I'm not going to tell anyone how to live their life. I have simply decided to maximize my own comfort and live as happily as I can.
>>83842123Family, fear, and the fact you might fuck it up.
>>83842388adroit justification
>>83842335>Absence of pleasure is a bad thingOnly if you exist already. You need to exist in order to feel bad about not having pleasure. The child you never had isn't upset about not getting to go to a party.
>>83842418That makes for a questionable argument because it's entirely dependent on the asymmetry to justify not having kids, of which not having kids is what supports the asymmetry at all
>>83842078>I woke up with a morning erection, therefore all lives are good.Do masculine, virile (100% straight) alpha male pronatalists realize how retarded they sound?
I'm an efilist. Ask me anything.
>>83842556who is your favorite philosopher?
>>83842556Do efilists write their books on toilet paper?
>>83842556Have you read Jiwoon Hwang? How does his position differ from David Benatar's?What are your metaphysical beliefs?
>>83842568Inmendham>>83842570It's a napkin
>>83842605>What are your metaphysical beliefs?nta but i acknowledge the existence of thin particulars and believe that equivalent logical statements are actually not so, but rather analogical, and one always carves at the joints more than others, so american britain is more real than japanese britain. i trace the origin of my beliefs back to the observation that for every language, there must be a variant for all the other languages in existence (english french, german french, etc)
>>83842104The point is to search for something better'First, seek heaven'
>>83842556>efilistwtf does that mean? no I won't google it
>>83842634Tefilin practitioner
>>83842078Benatar actually makes a lot of extremely strong points but Natalia's are too retarded to actually read any of his work in full and most antinatalists are just a bunch of transgressive edgelord teens who don't actually read Benatar and will ditch the movement the instant they grow bored of it.
>>83842123>"existence is... le suffering!"But this isn't the antinatalist argument. The antinatalist argument is that you shouldn't create new people, not necessarily that you have some sort of moral obligation to kill yourself once you do exist. Two different things. You can love your life, not be depressed at all and still be a staunch antinatalist. You just don't fully understand what antinatalism even is.
>>83843098> Natalia'snatalists*
>>83842123>"existence is awesome!">withers away and dies permanently>forces other people to do the sameWhy are natalists like this?
>>83842307Antinatalists are insufferable brainlets not only because they won't start with themselves if they want there to be less people on the Earth, but also because that ideology actively harms the people still alive who want to live well over time.Have you fuckers ever seen an abandoned town? What happens to the stragglers that live in those places surrounding them? They suffer because not enough people exist in that area to form support networks. Grandma slipped and broke a hip or little Jimmy fell and busted his head on the sidewalk while biking? Too bad now it's gonna be a 35 minute wait for an ambulance to show up then another hour before anybody qualified can start helping with the injury.Less people being born means less doctors, less farmers and less engineers which leads to more suffering for those who wish to live and have children.Fuck antinatalists. They're pussy faggots.
>>83843241>They suffer because not enough people exist in that area to form support networks. Grandma slipped and broke a hip or little Jimmy fell and busted his head on the sidewalk while biking? Too bad now it's gonna be a 35 minute wait for an ambulance to show up then another hour before anybody qualified can start helping with the injury.Sounds like all that could have been avoided if they were never born in the first place
>>83843249So you're not even going to mask how anti-life your position is? It would be different if the majority of people said life was not worth living and such but that's not the case. I'm not satisfied with my life but I would much rather live in my small comfort because there's enough people to keep the world turning without me having to till my own fucking crops or extract oil from the ground for fuel.As many have said before and will continue to say, start with yourself.
>>83843241>Look, not wanting me to make others suffer is really selfish of you because if I can't pass the suffering onto others then it'd make me really sad!Normalfaggots are just evil, holy shit.I guess I'm gonna get a slave and whip him to make him do my work because making others suffer is all okay as long as it means I get to suffer less.
>>83843241>we need to bring more temporary people into this dangerous planet floating in the freezing vacuum of space because small rural towns have weak support networksThat's a new one....but then those people are going to need more support networks, so they have to have more children and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Basically you want more people you wont ever meet so they can get forced into jobs you deem necessary. Who the fuck actually wants to be a fucking farmer? You want low-IQ people with no introspection nor imagination to be born so they can pick more food for you. How is that moral?Why bother with this convoluted reasoning and instead just start enslaving people around you to do those jobs you need? Just being alive is reward enough, right? They should be happy to be enslaved for your benefit, right?
>>83843277>you're not even going to mask how anti-life your position is?Why would I? Life is terrible. Even you think so. You only want more people exist so that they can prop you up and make your life more tolerable.
I can't take antinatalists particularly seriously because of the focus on feelings.I don't think suffering and happiness are particularly important things, they're just some of the many byproducts of existence. To me, deciding life is bad because of suffering is like deciding a book is bad because you don't like the cover art. It shows a shallow level of engagement.
>>83843304>>83843305>>83843308You're all proving me right when I said you're brainlets.Believe it or not but not everybody is emo and wants to die. The people who DO want to live and enjoy the lives they do have will benefit from having other people around to help them if necessary. Even just having friends enriches their lives.Now if none of those other people existed, quality of life goes down for those who want to live.Are you following along kiddies?If the many fuckers who invented computers and so forth going back weren't born, maybe I'd be saved from having to educate your stupid asses.
>>83843337>You're all proving me rightYou're not making any kind of real argument, you dumb faggot. Answer this question. Why is it moral for you to force someone into existence when you cannot guarantee that their life won't be anything but suffering?
>>83843336Name one thing more important than feelings
>>83843359The maximum elemental hit of my character in Path of Exile.
>>83843345Suffering is relative. There are children who tragically get chronic medical conditions that still say they enjoyed the lives they got to live even before they die young.Does the potential for suffering outweigh the potential for a rich and fulfilling life? I personally don't think so.Antinatalism lies in bed with euthanasia philosophy which eventually devalues life in general. That leads to crazy harmful shit if it's engrained in the public psyche.
>>83843241>I need slaves to pick my cotton
>>83843378>Does the potential for suffering outweigh the potential for a rich and fulfilling life?Absolutely, especially when the suffering can be avoided entirely by just not being selfish and having children. Your desire to have children is only self serving.
>>83843396Yes having children can be self serving but there can be deeper reasons for having them.It's easy to blame your parents for your life sucking but if your life is going amazing are you going to be kissing their asses the whole time? Most likely not, at least not to the same degree as the spiteful blame.Instead of placing the blame of suffering on existence itself, try focusing on the actual source of the suffering. Over time you can actually reduce suffering by doing so, what a shocker.
>>83843432>try focusing on the actual source of the suffering.The source of suffering is that I was born disabled and I'm dying of cancer lol. Life horrific and you cannot tell me otherwise. Your forced into existence, forced to kill and subsist of countless living things that fear death just as intensely as you do, and for what? To waste away and die for nothing? No, that is fucking terrible. Having children is evil.
>>83843378>Does the potential for suffering outweigh the potential for a rich and fulfilling life? I personally don't think so....he says while posting to a global computer network from the comfort of his climate controlled house filled with tasty food.I don't think you have a perspective of how much life actually sucks for the majority of people.More than half the planet live around or below the poverty line (living on roughly $4 per DAY), they may have some access to electricity and refrigeration, some access to clean water/plumbing, and some access to medicine. 10% of the planet doesn't even have that. They live with less than $1 a day, subsistence farming/hunting for food and could starve to death if their crops don't get enough water. Medicine/electricity/plumbing is completely out of the equation.For every (You) enjoying himself there's 5 dudes on this planet just miserable, frustrated, scared, and hungry. And you think more of them will solve this problem because of "support networks", you don't even understand what you're arguing for.
>>83843455That sucks if you actually do have those issues but somebody could be born who cures cancer for the most part eventually and antinatalism would prevent that.To blame existence itself is to say there's not a single thing you enjoy in your life or that you wish to experience more of. Modern society benefits from more people because you're able to enjoy the small comforts you have even in your condition because people are around to care enough to help you, even if it's just for money. If you were born a thousand years ago you'd probably already be dead in a ditch before you were old enough to walk which would be a tragedy.
>>83843477And if antinatalism was the norm who would be the first groups enduring the most suffering? Those within those living conditions. Do they not benefit from having charity programs and other groups who go out of their way to help them? What about large companies that want to renovate the area and provide actually decent paying jobs?If none of those people are born to help, then they die first. Also how many villagers if interviewed and asked if they hate their lives and wish they were never born, would answer yes. Probably not as many as you'd expect.
>>83843543>Most of planet Earth needs teams of people working around the clock to keep them alive because life here is so fucking shittyAre you making my point for me or are you confused?>If highly specialized workers aren't born in the right place, thousands die.Still doing it.Are you a specialized worker who volunteers for the poverty stricken? Do you farm? Install plumbing? Wire electricity? Treat the sick?Why do you expect hundreds of other people to do jobs you yourself aren't willing to do? Jobs they have to do or thousands die.
>>83843703My point isn't that each person needs to be an ubermensch and supporting an entire community by themselves. My point is that antinatalism and antinatalists always whine about "muh suffering" but if put into practice, antinatalism would INCREASE suffering in general, especially for those enjoying life or have the potential to. It's also in the same vein as the retards who claim they're "releasing people from their suffering" when they go on to commit mass murder except it's more passive and insidious.
>>83843761>if antinatalism was put into practice some of the people whose lives are shitty, might get a little more shitty>then no one ever suffers again until the beetles develop consciousnessSo if I'm understanding this, billions of people need to suffer in an unending chain of pointless suffering so that the people currently alive don't suffer too much?That's the argument against anti-natalism? We need to prop up suffering indefinitely so those currently wretched have a little extra help? Help that you personally refuse to give?Highly specialized strangers need to help those in poverty (but not you) not suffer so much by devoting their lives to jobs they don't want to do. They need to have more babies (but not your children) and then train those babies to do even more jobs they don't want to do either in order to alleviate some of the inevitable suffering caused by existence as a primate on this planet.That's a lot of work for those strangers that aren't you to do when they could just do nothing and fix 100% of the problem forever.
>>83843843>if everyone was dead, things would be betterSee this is exactly why I started out saying antinatalists are pussy faggots. If you kill yourself then you don't have to give a singular fuck about the state of the world but noooo, everyone else should be dead too.Fuck off death cult retard. You don't care about suffering or anything of the sort.
>>83842078Antinatalism is such a funny concept to me because it seems uncontroversially acceptable to me and I'm always surprised by how upsetting the idea seems to be to most people, and how depressed or sour antinatalists tend to be. Like yeah thrusting people into existence without their consent is a bit of a dick move, I'm not seeing how this is at all a particularly dark or subversive thought.
>>83842078>I'm depressed so that means everyone is suffering and humanity needs to die outTrue.>Do projecting antinatalist faggots realize how retarded they sound?Don't know and don't care.
>>83842281>what's the hold up on them killing themselvesIt's harder to do than you'd think, which is why we should legalize assisted suicide for everyone.
the problem with antinatalism to me is it seems very arrogant. they dont know what they dont know, like how much of their suffering is unnecessary. they are extrapolating irreversible policy based on current understanding. i could be on board with limiting birthrates but not extinction
If God is real then the mission is clear; be fruitful and multiply. If God is not real then morality and purpose are subjective and you are not obligated to adhere to any of Benatar's proposed rights and wrongs. I simply want humanity to prosper and not go extinct. Thankfully natalism will prevail over antinatalism due to natural selection.
>>83845176>Thankfully natalism will prevail over antinatalism due to natural selection.Natural selection being your jewish overlords replacing the fuck out of whites in favor of africans and indians lmao
>>83845808Whites are a weak race that deserve to be replaced. Sorry not sorry.
>>83844863Just run at a cop with a machete or gun and they'll relieve you of all that pesky blood keeping you alive.
