Even if the New Testament overrides the Old Testament if the bible is true God instituted this law at one point and time and thinks this law is good.>Deuteronomy 22:28-29>If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.I don't even like women that much because they dont like me and I don't get along with them, but even if I dislike women generally I don't think they should be raped or forced to marry their rapist.I've heard pastors say it "protected the victim" but God had rapists of married or engaged women or something executed if i remember. I don't think it protects a person to be forced to marry their rapist. I've been sexually assaulted as a male and I'd be beyond pissed as shit if some jew forced me to marry my abuser.So in ancient Isreal if a man rapes a 12 year old unwed girl she's forced to marry him and God wrote this? Infact being forced to marry your rapist is more Biblical instituted slavery.This makes me doubt the Bible is from God or consider if the Bible is from God, that God isn't fully good.
>God instituted this law at one pointThat would be Yahweh i.e. the Demiurge, not God. >This makes me doubt the Bible is from GodThe Bible isn't from God. It was written entirely by man, who is imperfect, and therefore the Bible is entirely imperfect.
>>84362128I agree. More importantly though Jesus outright says he came not to abolish these laws but to fulfill them. So not only was it temporarily the law but it still is.People act like it's no big deal, muh freedom, let me believe, etc, but these religious dogmas are why net+yoohoo convinced our country to go into ANOTHER war with Iran. On our dollar. These beliefs are what informs terrorists that hold clinicians hostage at gunpoint. They're a major source of blood and soil doctrine as well as the laws America used to have for slavery. It's why red states still allow adults to marry children.Beliefs inform actions. Impose a bunch of wrong beliefs and a bunch of wrong actions will follow.
You break it you buy it, not a bad law at all. He has to marry her and can't divorce. It doesn't say she has to marry him. Marriage implies protection and support, in this case it's one sided obligations owed to her while she owes him nothing in return. It's basically like alimony and she can continue to live with her family. It's blood money because he took her hymen and made her ineligible to be a proper bride. Sadly she can't be made whole, but this is the next closest thing. If he tries to renege there's a bunch of brothers, cousins, and dad willing to execute justice.
>>84362150demiurge? like the serpent from the gnostic myth?
>>84362150How did the jews go from worshipping God to yahwh anyway? I mean, it's pretty obvious that's a deity from an entirely separate pantheon. Where did they cross that threshold? >times I wish there was a dedicated /rel/ board for religious discussions
>>84362386And so the victim of rape is made to live with her abuser, for life.As punishment for the man.
>>84362128I just disregard the old testament completely, the god in that one seems like a complete asshole. He was dealing with jews so it makes sense I guess
>>84363208The Bible says it's the same God in the NT and OT.
>>84363169Ask someone to read to you because you are clearly incapable of doing it yourself. Or maybe you are intentionally lying. These are the only two possibilities. Stop being a bad person.
>>84362128bibles are weird psycho porn and should be banned from schools
>>84363276>you don't want a rape victim to live with her rapist for the rest of her life? Stop being a bad person!Go fuck yourself nigger
>>84362128She couldn't be 12 first, you'd be killed for pedophilia. But a full grown woman (likely 14-16 back then) would have to now be taken care of and provided for by him. Remember, these are not modern marriages, the man is now literally forced to provide for her for the rest of his natural life and the israelites back then took this seriously, if you fucked around and abandoned your wife or didn't take care of her, mob justice says it doesn't end well for you. These are a tribal people, you don't live far from her family and you certainly don't want to stir up any more trouble.
>>84363446except there's no rules against marrying children and in fact they were often arranged to a suitor in the single digits
>>84362128>Creator of the universe understands human currency but only from one tiny specific culture on Earth>makes dumb rules about money and rape>divineHow is anyone so dumb that they can't reason these rules were made by bronze age Hebrews based around their own culture? Do you really think those retards that bashed people's heads in with rocks had some direct line of communication with the creator of the universe?If they did, why weren't the Hebrews riding around in spaceships with replicator technology? Why were the Greeks, who were just across the Mediterranean at the same time, using catapults, cranes, water pumps and doing geometry homework while the Hebrew tribes were weaving baskets out of reeds and begging the stars for mercy?
>>84363461Yes, but consummation waited till puberty. Still gross, not gonna defend it, just how it was.
>>84362536>Where did they cross that threshold?King Josiah (640 BC). He found some scroll that said something about having only one god, so he went around slaughtering any Hebrews that worshiped anyone other than Yahweh. That's what all the golden calf business is in the bible, that was Ba'al Haddad, a storm god that was seen as redundant since he did most of the same things they said Yahweh did. That happy story is their early adoption of monotheism and a society-changing event.Going from El (Elohim) to Yahweh was a long process. Canaanites really liked Yahweh and his popularity grew over time. Eventually El's power was sort of shifted over to Yahweh when the Hebrews starting mimicking the Greeks (with Zeus as sort of the "main" god) and they chose Yahweh as their main.
>>84363518so you weren't killed for pedophilia.so what's the argument we're having.
>>84363554I was unaware of that honestly, you were correct in that fact. I'm not going to hold to something I said wrongly.
>>84363410>she can continue to live with her family Learn to read. This kind of shit is why even your mother hates you.
>>84363597>honey, your rapist came home for dinner, now be a dear and prepare his plateI repeat. Go fuck yourself. Nigger.
>>84363612Learn how to read. That's the second best thing you can do with your life. The best of course would be ending it.
>>84363625The fact you can take "this man who molested you as a 9 year old owns you now" and nitpick where the child's bed is going to be like it's some kind of own indicates that you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you. So why don't you suck-start a shotgun.
>>84363635Why are you lying? Do you really believe the wrong things you are saying? It's already established that you are struggling immensely with basic reading ability. Now it's becoming clear you don't even know which posts you're responding to or what was said. Use post numbers and quote function for clarity. It seems you have my posts confused with posts from another thread, board, or possibly even another website.
fifty shekels goy
>>84363657>If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.THIS IS DEUTERONOMY 22:28-29. ALLOW ME TO REPEAT MYSELF:>If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and RAPES HER and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must MARRY the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
>>84362128If I'm understanding correctly, the intent of the verse you listed is more about social justice and punishing a man "seducing or coercing a woman" then "hey guys if you rape a unpledged woman she has to marry you". For context, the verses prior deal with stoning to death a man who rapes a woman, and "his case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor,". there is a clear difference in consequences because they are two different acts. in the original Hebrew the word is more akin to "take", the same one used to refer to someone using a harp, or grabbing something. And so we can conclude that the intent in the passage you listed is to make a man who seduces a virgin and takes her virginity to take responsibility and marry her, since most men of the time would not want a woman who wasn't a virgin, and thus she would be in poverty.
>>84363692I don't personally give a shit what the Hebrew says at this point. This is what the translations say, this is what the bible-believers have to guide them. The same bible also falls prey to the HUMAN error of assuming that a woman will always bleed her first time, and those who don't are guilty of adultery. A policy which has led to everything from social ostracization to murder.
>>84363673Now look up the original instead of your cherry picked translation. Look up the original text untranslated. Then their legal meanings in that culture, time, and language. I already explained it to you but you were too stupid to understand. For shits and giggles I'll quote myself again.>You break it you buy it, not a bad law at all. He has to marry her and can't divorce. It doesn't say she has to marry him. Marriage implies protection and support, in this case it's one sided obligations owed to her while she owes him nothing in return. It's basically like alimony and she can continue to live with her family. It's blood money because he took her hymen and made her ineligible to be a proper bride. Sadly she can't be made whole, but this is the next closest thing. If he tries to renege there's a bunch of brothers, cousins, and dad willing to execute justice.A seperate poster said similar. >>84363446>Remember, these are not modern marriages, the man is now literally forced to provide for her for the rest of his natural lifeYou seem to think marriage implies slavery or living with someone. Words change over time, across cultures, and as made obvious by your fucked up incorrect belief surrounding the meaning of marriage, even differs between people. This is why it's important have smart people explain to you what words mean and ensure that when a word is used it is understood to mean something specific.If i wanted to be silly like you I could say rape is the act of saying good morning as you walk past them on the sidewalk. That would change the entire meaning of everything that hinges on the meaning of rape in this conversation.
>>84363719The Bible believers actually study this stuff. The original texts, various translations, as well as commentary spanning thousands of years. You picked up a fedora one day, flipped to a random page in a book you stole, then dedicated your entire life to furiously wagging a finger at strawmen you imagined up out of nowhere.
>>84363744This is at best an attempt at salvaging a very heavily flawed human-written law from 3000 years ago for no reason at all except to bolster the argument that the book is inerrant. My fucked up incorrect belief about marriage is that a 40 year old man shouldn't be marrying a 12 year old girl because the clear, extreme power imbalance is rife with abuse. Your totally sane and correct belief is that these systems don't need any tweaking whatsoever because they're from God and therefore already perfect.>>84363766I dedicated a few nights a month to vociferously disagreeing with people shilling a book that condones child sacrifice and slavery because MY FAMILY WAS TAUGHT IT FOR GENERATIONS. I GREW UP IN IT. POLICYMAKERS STILL CITE THIS STUPID FUCKED UP BOOK AND ITS INSANE LAWS AS A MODEL TO LIVE BY TODAY. FOR ALL OF US, NOT JUST THE BELIEVERS.
>>84363791>condones child sacrificeit's actually always fighting pagans that did that
>>84363829So why did god regret making Saul king again
>>84363791What exactly is so abusive about laws mandating that a victim of a crime be made whole or as close as possible? There is no imbalance of power and it's not rife with abuse. You rape a virgin then you have to support her financially and you don't ever get to see her again.Maybe I'm backwards but I think this is infinitely better than the current system in place here in America. No justice, they just lock the guy up for a couple years and then it's like it never happened. The modern equivalent if the law was still in place would be the rapist of an unmarried virgin is made to pay enough to the victim to be able to live a good life and a restraining order would be in place. A good starting point is about $51,370 a year for life and adjusted for inflation, since that's average individual income in America. If she's from a higher social class it could be expected she is owed much more than that. But you claim this is abusive.
>>84363871>and you don't ever get to see her againTell me what the bible says about wives who don't put out for their husbands.>and a restraining order would be in placeTELL ME WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT WIVES WHO DON'T PUT OUT FOR THEIR HUSBANDS.
>>84362128I like this one:>2 King 2:23-34>And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.>And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. Sending bears to maul annoying children to death confirmed good and holy.
>>84363885It says you should have thought of that before becoming a rapist instead of going through the normal channels. If you want a wife with obligations towards you that puts out you can herd up some sheep and try to broker a second marriage but do it properly this time. Maybe you'll get lucky and find someone who hasn't heard about the rape thing yet.
>>84363972You are reading between the lines and ignoring the lines themselves.
>>84363871>The modern equivalent if the law was still in place would be the rapist of an unmarried virgin is made to pay enough to the victim to be able to live a good life and a restraining order would be in placeThis is possible if she sues him for sexual assault in a civil court.
>>84363791Sir you are the reddit hat man therefore I win the argument. I am very smart.
>>84362128>rapeIt's not rape, it's fornication. The translation you're using comes from an erroneous translation of the Latin >Si invenerit vir puellam virginem, quae non habet sponsum, et apprehendens concubuerit cum illa, et res ad judicium venerit...The word apprehendens means to "take hold of," "grasp," or "apprehend," and concubuerit simply means to "lie with" or "sleep with." A direct translation of the Latin is: "If a man finds a virgin girl, who does not have a betrothed, and taking hold of her lies with her, and the matter comes to judgment..." It describes a man taking the physical initiative in a sexual encounter. Basically seduction, not a violent assault.In contrast, Deuteronomy 22:25 literally a paragraph above your quotation shows how to deal with ACTUAL rape:>But if a man find a damsel that is betrothed, in the field, and taking hold of her, lie with her, he alone shall die: The damsel shall suffer nothing, neither is she guilty of death: for as a robber riseth against his brother, and taketh away his life, so also did the damsel suffer: She was alone in the field: she cried, and there was no man to help her.This is ACTUAL rape because the Hebrew word used is chazaq which means "to seize forcefully," "overpower," or "violently force." In this scenario, the woman is considered innocent because she cried out for help but no one heard her, and only the man is punished with DEATH.tl;dr do some basic research. God help you
>>84362128>rapeIt's not rape, it's fornication. The translation you're using comes from an erroneous translation of the Latin>Si invenerit vir puellam virginem, quae non habet sponsum, et apprehendens concubuerit cum illa, et res ad judicium venerit...The word apprehendens means to "take hold of," "grasp," or "apprehend," and concubuerit simply means to "lie with" or "sleep with." A direct translation of the Latin is: "If a man finds a virgin girl, who does not have a betrothed, and taking hold of her lies with her, and the matter comes to judgment..." It describes a man taking the physical initiative in a sexual encounter. Basically seduction, not a violent assault.In contrast, Deuteronomy 22:25 literally a paragraph above your quotation shows how to deal with ACTUAL rape:>But if a man find a damsel that is betrothed, in the field, and taking hold of her, lie with her, he alone shall die: The damsel shall suffer nothing, neither is she guilty of death: for as a robber riseth against his brother, and taketh away his life, so also did the damsel suffer: She was alone in the field: she cried, and there was no man to help her.This is ACTUAL rape because the Hebrew word used is chazaq which means "to seize forcefully," "overpower," or "violently force." In this scenario, the woman is considered innocent because she cried out for help but no one heard her, and only the man is punished with DEATH.do some basic research. God help you
>>84362128>rapeIt's not rape, it's fornication. The translation you're using comes from an erroneous translation of the Latin>Si invenerit vir puellam virginem, quae non habet sponsum, et apprehendens concubuerit cum illa, et res ad judicium venerit...The word apprehendens means to "take hold of," "grasp," or "apprehend," and concubuerit simply means to "lie with" or "sleep with." A direct translation of the Latin is: "If a man finds a virgin girl, who does not have a betrothed, and taking hold of her lies with her, and the matter comes to judgment..." It describes a man taking the physical initiative in a sexual encounter. Basically seduction, not a violent assault.In contrast, Deuteronomy 22:25 literally a paragraph above your quotation shows how to deal with ACTUAL rape:>But if a man find a damsel that is betrothed, in the field, and taking hold of her, lie with her, he alone shall die: The damsel shall suffer nothing, neither is she guilty of death: for as a robber riseth against his brother, and taketh away his life, so also did the damsel suffer: She was alone in the field: she cried, and there was no man to help her.This is ACTUAL rape because the Hebrew word used is chazaq which means "to seize forcefully," "overpower," or "violently force." In this scenario, the woman is considered innocent because she cried out for help but no one heard her, and only the man is punished with DEATH.do some basic research. God help you> because your comment was not original
>>84362128Old testament is for jews, who Jesus said were literally Satan's children. Don't expect old testament to be kind and forgiving. New testament is for Christians who don't believe in tooth for a tooth philosophy but still expected women to be subservient. The perfect woman according to new testament is a socially intelligent virtuous strong businesswoman who takes care of her family.
>>84363854because Saul chose to follow his own ways instead of God's and wanted to be king for his own glorification
>>84364229>>84364234>>84364240took me 3 tries to realize 4chan was down lmao
not even schizo, but that image spells 'toch sexw' right?like it's berating my lack of touching sexy women...?
>>84364299translation: Saul didn't murder the children of the king as God ordered him to
To be fair the text doesn't actually say rape. It's basically a reiteration of Exodus 22:16-17 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall give the marriage present for her, and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equivalent to the marriage present for virgins."You see this a lot in Deuteronomy where it retreads laws from Exodus. Like you can find the ten commandments in two places in the Bible: Exodus and Deuteronomy, and they're worded slightly differently.
