There's a big war on Twitter between Art Fags>people shouldn't trace and should learn Anatomy >then those saying shaming people for tracing is ableist
>>84562265On /fit/ if someone says something stupid, anons ask them to post their physique.If an "artist" says something stupid, ask them to post their "art"
Ableism is okay. Nature does ableism, it's called natural selection.
>>84562265well I mean yeah, basic anatomy is MANDATORY"Pillow test" shouldnt even be a "test" it should be a consistent excercise trying to add movement to objects with respect to weight and anatomypillow testmy little toaster testradio testblender testcoffee maker testlook at the guns in James O'barr's The Crow, they look like someone actually holding something thats dense
>>84562265Why are you posting about this?No one who traces is serious about art or drawing or will develop any real skill.It takes years of grinding to get anywhere, and these people are irrelevant childern.
>>84562265>yes, I steal art, chud>BUT NOT LIKE THAT REEEEEEEEEEEE
>>84562268they probably do that on /ic/
>>84562436Artists have used references for millennia. Post your "art"
>>84562265>trace figures in anatomy book>learn anatomy
yeah I remember these arguments on deviantart toonothing really ever changes
>>84562781>>84562268It's trueIt's also really funny watching them try to squirm their way out of it>>84563224life is an endless cyclethe "not dark enough" also repeats on cycle, I even know a friend who was doing a tutorial where she did shadows > light shading and half the comments were>omg I thought you were making her white ToT
>>84563241nicewhat's the /ic/ equivalent of mirin
>>84562781Do they also do that on /i/
>>84563167I never said references were bad. Tracing a 3d model and referencing it are two different things. Obviously references are highly productive. And there are things that can be learned from a tracing exercise, however it's far less productive than referencing and just redrawing it.But this is about tracing something like a child does when they first start drawing, then claiming the people calling you on it are being ableist. But like I said it dose'nt matter. The people saying that don't have the mindset to ever become good at drawing, so it's irrelevant.
literally what is the point of digital art anymore now that AI exists. it was a waste of time before and now its a mega giga waste of time. And I love making art, but the point is getting a real canvas and using a real medium and making it with your hands. computer art has always been soulless slop.
>>84562265Replace both with AI already
this is like saying writers shouldn't use a thesaurus or dictionary i guess?
>>84562265>Tracing 3d models is badWhy though? Why is it bad>You're not really learning, its a crutch!Okay probably but who gives a shit? lol Just be glad its not AI.
3D artist here. What do they even mean by trace a 3D model???People take bases and alter them into what they want all the time. It's like clay, it's not written in ink.
>>84563323But when you trace, you can be certain you are learning correctly. When you copy, you are not producing a perfect copy and thus may be learning incorrect things, unless you're doing so with Bargue plate-tier autism.
>>84563554They're talking about taking a model, posing it, rendering, then drawing over top. Its like if you take the models and render them to make a comic you're a 3d comic book artist and no one would question that. If you then draw on top of those renders you're suddenly a fraud? Piss off lol.
>>84563556That's part of the process. You're training your eye and brain to see and recreate the reference. You can then compare how close you are and see where you went wrong. It's a mental process you repeat hundreds of times for years until you develop skill.
>>84563580Yeah thats fucking retarded.
>>84563593Wouldn't it be more efficient to train your copying skill separately from your anatomy studies?
>>84563622Assuming it's really possible to separate the two: why would that be more efficient? Why not just learn anatomy and accuracy at the same time? At the end of the day the training wheels need to come off the bike or you're probably not going to ride in the Tour de France. Tracing is a form of failure removal. Failure is necessary for learning, growth and improvement. Don't get me wrong, tracing is very helpful in certain situations. But the best tracer in the universe is still not actually an artist.
>>84563520that's a funny opinionnow pyw (+timestamp +proof)
>>84563728not giving you a timestamp or proof cause I dont give a shit enough. yes I know I suck
>>84563725>Why not just learn anatomy and accuracy at the same time? Too many moving parts. >the training wheels need to come off the bikeLots of holes with this analogy. Why do people use the bike machine then? What about standalone leg exercises? Do kids even start with training wheels anymore? Why aren't you doing Bargue plates if your ambitions are that high? Can we define failure as a "you either are riding the bike or are falling off" when even a 1% error in your copy can be considered a failure? What about drawing from imagination? How would you determine if that was a failure or success? When can you move on from a drawing if there's always room for improvement?Or you can just trace the diagrams and practice copying other stuff like rocks or trees that don't demand accuracy from the start. That would be how you'd separate the two. Fuck it I hate being an ass to you too. When I get around to doing it, I'll start with tracing then move onto copying.
>>84563809>When I get around to doing it, I'll start with tracing then move onto copying.And there it is. Someone who hasn't even set pen to paper mouthing off about technique.
>>84562781It's called PYW for "post your work"
What's so bad about tracing? Isn't the whole point of drawing anatomy is learning how the human form works? How it bends and all that?
>>84563867To understand how to the human form works you must understand the landmarks of the body and building anatomy up from simple 3d forms like boxes and cylinders. Using this method you can measure the proportions of the human form, pose a gestural mannequin in various positions, and build anatomy on top of that. Tracing only has limited benefit because you reach the final step without any of the intermediate stages that lead to real understanding.
>>84563323POSTYOURWORK(original comet)
>>84563867Well first of all you're not drawing from life, because tracing generally has to be done from another picture. So you're already twice-removed from reality. When you trace the work of another person, whether a drawing or a photograph, you are not absorbing the skill that framed that image. You are not making choices about where to put the lines. You are not even really looking at the copy of the original object, so your eyes are not learning how to flatten reality into a series of irrational shapes on a page.
>>84562265I just don't care about "le art".I have scenarios and kinks in my head and I want to put them on a canvas. My goal is to produce things, not have a stupid art journey. I don't conform about le "muh aesthetics of le artist'n'shitz".If artists are so triggered about this, maybe they should make REAL tutorials and not ramble for 20 minutes about how a line has a feeling but you can't explain it but you have like, feel it, but there's no rule but it can be wrong though like that time I was walking my dog and I saw a leaf and it's curve like movement...... DUDE SHUT THE FUCK UP!
>>84563845fuck man you're rightI gotta make mistakes and learn from themBut I really think I should get a teacher instead of trying to self-study through art books. I know how to copy. That's why I was asking you what's the point
>ableistlook i can't draw for shit but this term does not fit here. and frankly if you WANT to trace 3D idgaf at all. if you have to do it cause you're actually physically disabled, go for it. if you trace and you're not disabled? go for it. truly
>>84562265Can someone tell me what the hell is going on?
>>84564052>Anon wasn't born with an overdeveloped kynesthetical abilitynooo! you HAVE to conform to the Way of Art ISO-1289-2 or else it's not REAL art :'( STOP enjoying yourself!!
>>84564065i'm just one of the dudes who likes two cakes desu. i get that there is technique, and i say go for it and don't trace. but shit nigga if you just want to trace as a hobby who gives a fug
>>84564032There's a lot to be learned from copying pictures, such as gaining a sensitivity to measurements and different angles. The French Academics spent a ton of time doing bargue plates and master studies. The problem with tracing is that you don't really learn any drawing skills from it. You don't need to measure, you don't need to think about degrees of angles, you don't need to think about form or design. You just run your pencil over a line that someone else (or a computer program) already made, it's a mostly mindless process.
I used to trace back when I drew on paper, but that was for the sole purpose of cranking out sketches to shade and color. Trying to practice coloring on sketches is a retarded process, too many lines, but its doable I guess.Shading was what I struggled with, it was never shapes or forms.
>>84564107That's probably the best use of tracing, basically skipping the early stages of drawing to focus on what you want to practice
>>84564090I met this girl who could draw appealing cartoon girl faces and all she did to practice was tracing her favorite art. >but she will never become TRULY GREATsigh I dont give a fuck
>>84564119I trace other people's art to get a sense of what they were thinking when they made this shape or line in relation to the others.Artlets here think tracing can only be done senseless and to copy.
>>84562265you're mining comments here to take to your fake twitter accounts over there aren't you?
>>84564128exatly, tracing makes it easy to learn particular shapes and style so you can reproduce them on your own drawings.
>>84564128>>84564130I never said tracing has zero benefit. It's just inadequate on its own, and less effective when compared to other methods of study. If your goal is to learn and improve, just tracing will not get you very far.
>>84564051You want my advice? Don't think, just draw. Drawing and thinking no good, can't do both same time. Find a way to make drawing regular, or social if you enjoy that sort of thing. I like to go to a local life drawing event held at a cafe. Or there are drawing workshops around. Most cities will have something like this going on. Of course you can also go outside with a sketchbook and just draw whatever you see. I highly recommend this when traveling, it's far more memorable than taking photos and really allows you to drink in the details. One of the more important skills you'll learn from sketching is what not to draw. That is - composition, framing, making even a quick sketch seem finished, despite only depicting a very narrow slice of reality. Often you'll only have a short window to draw, so learning to draw fast is very useful.
>>84563914>>84564032I understand now. Thanks guys.
>>84562265>gives good advice that anyone with working eyes that can see and a working hand that can trace can follow>hurr you're an ableism hrrr durrrWhy are they like this?
>twitter threadthese people just don't understand that all art inherently is derivative. all art is based on references, be they explicit or in the mind.there is nothing wrong with tracing a generic form. what the fuck do you think artists drawing someone in a pose were doing? "oh pose for me but also don't worry i won't copy your pose"? what?even tracing i'm inclined to not find bad, but that is probably an unpopular opinion with how many people think they "own" their expression of "anime girl in a pose". at the very least, let's not act like tracing isn't a good way to learnshaming people for using references and actually trying to learn, get a basis for themselves for their art, is crab behaviour
>>84562265theres so many various ways to draw and so many different workflows for everyone its pride about being able to draw without references or "crutches" that makes them feel better than everyone else
AI totally breaks the art community. They're still coping about people giving a shit whether it's made by a human or not. But reality is no one actually cares. They just care if it looks good. People are being performative for now and pretending they care because of social pressure. But as time goes on the facade will drop and no one will give a shit if it was made by AI, only that it looks good.This tracing bullshit is just connected to it. There are probably artists who are using AI but feel scared due to social judgement. So to cope they're tracing it and pretending that means they drew it. Then they lie and say they traced a 3D model or whatever to further insulate from AI. But ultimately it's all just bullshit trying to dance around the fact that AI art is going to destroy the art community and most of these fags have wasted huge amounts of time honing a skill that is now being replaced. It's even more funny because the most anti-AI people in the art world are actually the least skilled artists. They're either literally zero talent "artists" who's art looks like fucking garbage or they literally just sit around redrawing established franchise characters from anime and video games and whatever else they can copy. They make no true original content, it's all just redraws and fan art. But they think that because they wasted so much time learning how to make their shit-tier art they deserve to be recognized as talented artists despite not actually having any talent. So AI is a real problem for them because they likely wouldn't even really be able to use it to create good content. They'd end up just doing exactly what they're doing now... making a bunch of AI slop of characters everyone already knows.TLDR fuck the art community and in particular fuck the untalented artists who feel entitled to recognition.
>>84563867What's the point in drawing something.that already exists?
>>84562436why would you grind a skill that is actively being replaced lol. it's like learning how to beat your laundry with rocks. plus retards like you said the same shit about buying paint rather than mixing your own, and silk screening, and photoshop. "uhm sweaty no one serious about art is using paint they didn't grind themselves from bugs"
>>84568114>why would you grind a skill that is actively being replaced lol.NTA but for fun I read books and take my own notes on them. I haven't written anything myself, but it's there. Can a monkey put a prompt into a chatbot and then shit out an article? Sure. Will it have any meaning to anyone? Not likely. Craft in general doesn't lose relevance to people just because an aspect of it can be made more efficient. I get dozens of ads on youtube mobile for the fucking suno ai app with people making inane gibbering and babbling sounds and then making really generic kinda shitty computer generated music with it. Wouldn't it make more sense to just practice the instruments they think they need and music theory? If music actually interests someone, I'd assume that would be their automatic course of action to begin with.Do you actually paint?
>>84566364If your goal is to make a specific thing, then use whatever means you can in order to achieve the result, but if your goal is to improve yourself, then you're wasting your time. Like if your goal is to get stronger legs you should go for a walk not drive your car. But if you actually need to get somewhere on time then yeah drive the car.
>>84568114AI art feeds off of human art and can't be copyrighted so this is a retarded excuse for laziness.
>>84562781>>84563857And the correct response is always this
>>84568402Basically this. It's interesting to see the underlying motivation of the "artists" who seethe about AI. For them, Art was never about>personal skill development>genuine creative self-expression>the simple joy of making something they likebecause AI art does not threaten any of those at all. AI art does threaten the things they care about however:>ego gains for being 'such a good artist' even if they are bad>gatekeeping the ability to make things people like>income derived from making generic r34 and fanart slop
>>84568527>fanart slopThe vast majority of digital artists are fanartists so this is a weird blow.
>>84568546I honestly can't tell if you mean this to agree with me (most "artists" online are in fact making Fanart Slop) or trying to attribute value to it as some kind of counterpoint (it's popular and therefore good), but such artists are typically angry about AI art because I can type "mario holding hands with bowsette" into my computer and get something equivalent to what would take them a full day's work in about 30 seconds for a batch of 8 generated images and they have nothing to offer beyond that, meaning they have been rendered completely obsolete.
Notice how all the professional artists only go on twitter to post art or interact with colleagues while the /beg/ artists are constantly in twitter discourse? Yeah it's because it's a genuine waste of time and they're trying to waste as much time as possible to avoid studying art.
>>84568402i don't think those are equivalent. using references teaches you those references, commits them to your experience>>84568527you have a pretty bleak vision. i think most people dislike AI art not out of fear of being replaced, but out of disdain for the concept of "art for the purpose of consumption". art for the purpose of "oh thats cute, like" or "oh that's hot, like". i suppose the more jaded artists that just draw generic r34 might worry about being replaced, but their issue isn't AI, it's their own mental. which is in a roundabout way what you're saying, but you're framing it as if all art consumers consume only for the sake of consumption and not for seeing an artist put their personal passion into an idea. that you fall into the former does not mean everyone else does
>>84568578I fucking hate this trend when artists make a slightly successful tweet and they go "omg hit tweet here's my commission pricing sheet".It's NPC behavior, first of all. Second, nobody gives a shit.
>>84568587>out of disdain for the concept of "art for the purpose of consumption"That is a completely fair stance to take, but it's not like image-gen AI created that problem. It just made "for the purpose of consumption" art easier to make. A lot (overwhelming majority, likely) of the artists who are mad were the ones already making consumable art - fanart, porn, comics, memes, and so forth. If not... their reasons for making art fall into the first category I laid out, and they should be largely undisturbed by it.Being bothered that there is an audience for AI art (consumers who dgaf) seems to almost never be the issue, the issue is always presented as being bothered that there is a mechanism to supply the consumers with the "art" they want. It's not like real Fine Art like you'd find in a museum etc. has gone anywhere, nor has much employment for actual professional artists and designers. It's only a serious threat to the kind of digital artists who take to twitter to bitch about it.
>>84568578>literal paragraphs of text over shipping discourseI'm convinced anyone who cares about ship discourse or cartoon porn discourse past the age of 20 is an autist with too much free time on their hands.
>>84568575Most AI art uses the same 3 artstyles and does it poorly. Human art that is made from skill is just superior 90% of the time.
>>84568718Between this and the people who bring up the fact they were raped whenever fictional characters are discussed I stopped engaging in fandoms altogether. For some reason fandoms attract mentally ill niggas who are perpetually angry and ready to weaponize ever unfortunate aspect of their life in every discussion. It's tumblrification.
>>84568733You are seconds away from considering prompting a skill, maybe you do already, although it's true that in common use people just take whatever default chatgpt spits out without effort. A real shame in my opinion, when the potential for AI art to be truly great is all there, used as a tool by somebody with some creative intent. I accept the reality that it's almost all just jeets churning out anime to coom to, perverts on /b/ making shit they couldn't even pay somebody for it they wanted to, and less miserably, people just turning their photos into "ghibli style" for fun. If anything, saying "human art is superior 90% of the time" is being generous if we're real concrete about it since it implies 10% of AI art is good.
>>84562265see picrel/threadwho the fuck cares? as long as you aren't directly stealing art 1:1 and only using parts as anatomy reference . Twitter niggas will get mad over literally anything. As long as it isn't plagerizing or AI slop, I don't think policing how people make art is useful at all, fucking idiots.
>>84568587If you're using a device in order to simulate your mind's eye because yours is not adequate, then it just is what it is, I didn't say it was 'bad' it's just categorically not the same thing.
>>84568275I can make paintings using AI u can never make in ur life.
>>84569090You can't make a single compelling thing strictly using AI prompts thougheverbeit. Has anyone actually reposted your AI prompt generations? The only thing I use AI for is to take photos of women and remove their tattoos, hair dye and piercings, and make them less fat and then dress them in normal clothes. So it's like 'see? this is what you could look like'
>>84562268Pretty sure anyone who is a "twitter artist" is already posting their art publicly for anyone to see.
>>84569204Here's another oil painting that would've been astonishing pre Ai now that I told you it's Ai it's lost all its allure
>>84569090You didn't make it either.
>>84569204imagine prompting paragraphs to harass women when a simple "fat whore" is more effective
>>84569242That's not an astonishing oil painting. The elements of it resemble real things but if you look closer, it's gibberish. It's also not hard to imagine that level of technical skill being reached by human hands, you are unironically a brainrotted skibidy toilet cocomelon nigga if you think this is impressive >>84569290>ctrl+v>remove the tattoos, piercings, makeup, restore her natural hair color, and give her a BMI of around 18-19, change nothing else >wait a few seconds>can now post a picture instead >
>>84569328This isn't real foid abuse, I'm not impressed, you just had the computer abuse her for you, the only honorable way to achieve this is to manually perform all that photoshop work yourself
