What are people on this board really looking for? Are they trying to determine who is the most efficient player and therefore the best at what they do, or are they looking for epic narratives that fit their worldview?Because both Messi and Pelé are objectively better players than Maradona. They are more clinical and efficient at creating plays or generating and scoring goals, so they are simply better players.But from what I see here on /sp/, people aren't looking for that. Instead, they're looking for a simplified epic narrative that supports their point of view and justifies some aspect of their political or similar perspective. For example, Maradona's legacy is based on his less efficient but more aesthetically pleasing style of play, within the context of a war and its "revenge," and the struggle between south and north in Italy. But how many of you here actually watched and analyzed how Maradona played in each match, game by game? They were happy that he pulled off a brilliant move, but after that, it had no impact on the game if he didn't score, create a scoring opportunity, or control the flow of the match, and if he didn't maintain that level of performance consistently.People on /sp/ need to be honest and admit whether they're truly trying to identify and admire the best player or just the narrative surrounding him, because on the field, Maradona was always inferior to what Pelé and, especially, Messi developed and played.
if a player pass the "eye test" then that means they are overratedsalah doesnt pass the so-called "eye test" but hazard does, but anyone who wants to win would rather have salah on the team than the fatty
>>154951226But have you ever analyzed Maradona's career, and consequently Pelé's and Messi's, by watching all the available matches in chronological or season order, disregarding external factors unrelated to the sport and to football, and arriving at strictly sporting conclusions? Have you done that exercise? Or do you just stick with the mythologized and simplified narrative? I saw Maradona in the '90s, I grew up with Maradona's entire career, and finally, thanks to YouTube at the beginning of the last decade, I was able to analyze his career soberly and without prejudice, and you end up taking him off the pedestal. Ultimately, and to summarize, you have to analyze the qualities of each player, and this is only achieved by watching match after match and tangibly understanding the chronological and historical context of each of these matches. And in that regard, Maradona doesn't have much to offer compared to Messi and Pelé. He's relegated to a third position.
>>154951133Maradona is hated by modern internet argies and other south americans because he is clearly part indio, an uncomfortable truth in the southern conemessi is also part indio but it's not as obvious
>>154951323no because i dont care about them
>>154951507What are you talking about? We're analyzing the strictly sporting aspects versus the simplistic and mythologizing narratives.>>154951570You should or you will be biased your whole life based on lies, illusions, and deceptions.
>>154951323link me to that youtube channel where you can watch Maradona's full matches in chronological order, please
>>154951623>What are you talking about?much if not almost all sports discussion on /sp/ is via a /pol/ lens, brazilians hate pele and vini because they are black, argies used to love maradona but switched to messi because he's whiterlatin americans hate mbappe because he's a lightskin europeanthey hate haaland because he's a nord
>chikaner headcanon>more chikaner headcanonGreat thread ahead.
>>154951625There isn't one like that. If you didn't see Maradona in the '80s or '70s, you'll have to create your own database to analyze him, searching through every single match you can. After all that work, which could take years, you'll be able to reach an objective conclusion about what he was really like as a player compared to Messi and Pelé. There are at least two books, one by a Spaniard and the other by an Argentinian, that compile all of Maradona's matches. You could start there. I've already created my own database and watched everything I could find of Maradona from the '80s and '70s, and the conclusion I reached, after being a Maradona fan my whole life, is that Messi is a better player by a good margin, and Pelé too. Maradona is destined for third place.
>>154951686I repeat, what the hell are you talking about? You Americans have a serious problem with this whole race thing and playing the victim. Stick to baseball or basketball, but don't contaminate soccer with your racial issues.
>>154951781Why did it changed from "football" to "soocer"?
>>154951781it's blatantly obvious soccer is just a game to try and score white people points for you people, why pretend it's anything else?
>>154951781why are you going back and forth with chikaner? a jeet who pretends to be a white nationalist on a somalian fishing boardAs for your question for me it's based on generations and who you grew up watchingto my dad, Maradona's the GOATto me, Messi's the GOATto my kid, Lamine is the GOATto his kid, someone else will be the GOAT, etc etc..
>>154951719so, you're full of shit. got it
>>154952053I watched Maradona throughout the 90s; I grew up with him and his matches from the 80s and a few from the 70s. I was a Maradona fan. But I didn't get stuck there. The internet, especially YouTube, and watching Messi's entire career opened my eyes and made me realize I was wrong about Maradona and also about Pelé. Messi made me appreciate Pelé because their playing styles are so similar.
>>154951625https://footballia.eu/players/diego-armando-maradona?mode=player&page=1https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0K48-Ahxq8PaOwXelbzJ7T6bijgOVXDYNot even close to all his games, but over a hundred.
>>154951226dunno man, belgium's golden generation went to shit as soon as fatzard began stacking more mc donalds meals than goals after going to madrid
>>154951133Nice dubs but reddit spacing so cringe. Didnt ready any of that. Anyway, Pirlo is my goat.
>>154951133Messi surpasses Maradona in literally every aspect of football, including the eye test
>>154952435As a former maradoniano, I can claim that they are equally good in the aesthetic aspect of the game, although Maradona performed more acrobatic feats like Ronaldinho. In free kicks, they are virtually tied, and the two major areas where there is the greatest difference are in natural leadership, where Maradona wins, and in goalscoring, where Messi dominates. Otherwise, I agree with almost everything you said.
>>154951133>or are they looking for epic narratives that fit their worldview?The GOAT debate in football has always come down to narratives, really. It's about what image of the ultimate football hero is most satisfying to people. When Messi won the WC in 2022, a lot of people were shouting that the debate was over, Messi was the best etc. etc. But anyone who watched the tournament knows that Argentina were lucky to win and while Messi did perform very well, it was nothing we haven't seen already seen from him both in club level and international level football. A knockout tournament requires a lot of luck to win, especially one where you don't pick your team and only have a chance every four years. It really shouldn't be the deciding factor for a player's quality and Messi had done far more impressive things in 2012/2013.But it's the World Cup, the most prestigious and iconic trophy in football. So when Messi won it, now you have a great narrative. "The best player finally lifts the ultimate trophy", "Messi completes football", "the story of football is finished" and so on. It's those big, iconic moments that people remember. Like Maradona's goal of the century or Pele's three world cups or CR7's five UCLs or first Euro for Portugal. Of course all these narratives have a few asterisks attached to them. Pele didn't play most of the matches for one of those WCs, Maradona had the Hand of God, CR7 had some convenient referee decisions and luck in the CL/Euros and Messi had some in the WC.But people don't really care about the asterisks, the small details. Some people will endlessly point them out but they're just impotently seething. Most people care about the big headlines, the stories of heroes doing amazing things, that is what they want. Going by pure facts and statistics I think Messi is the best player ever, but the GOAT debate is mostly just about vibes, there will never be a definitive answer.
>>154951133>What are people on this board really looking for?Love
>>154953195I can be your friend anon.
maradona took a relegation napoli to 2 scudetto wins in the most competitive league on the planet and to a uefa cup
>>154953166Thank you for your measured, reasonable response, free from the irrationality that often plagues this cesspool that is /sp/. Debates like this are sorely missed. When I was younger, I relied on narratives; I think it's the easiest way to follow this sport and its history. But I grew tired of them when I tried to remember Ronaldinho and realized he wasn't as great as I had imagined. He was a very imperfect player in many ways, but because he had made me immensely happy, I struggled to acknowledge this fact. One thing led to another, and I ended up re-examining Maradona's career right in the middle of Messi's. Maradona is a story you can watch again and again without getting tired of it, but that's what it is: a narrative passed down from generation to generation that must be subjected to the scrutiny of reason and objective facts. Unfortunately, and I say this as a longtime Maradoniano, the narrative of Maradona versus reality is weak, and the same applies to Pelé. But anyway, I hope that in the future, young people will conduct the same objective and revisionist analysis with Messi when the next GOAT arrives. If football history has taught us anything, it's that these kinds of players appear every two decades or so. Another GOAT will eventually come along.
>>154953821Yes, that's the narrative, but nobody tells you about the limit on foreign players that applied to all Serie A clubs, or the fact that Maradona took a while to adapt to Italy and that it wasn't until the following year, with the signing of the Verona goalkeeper from the championship-winning team, and later with high-profile signings to create the MaGiCa trio, or later Alemao, that they began to shine, eventually winning the Scudetto and the UEFA Cup. It's full of nuances. Between Maradona's first match in his first season and his hat trick against Lazio at home, there were many gaps, and that was generally the case throughout Maradona's career. You can't just take the story at face value. You have to look at everything holistically. That's just to name a few of the many nuances that exist.
Pele will always be infinitely more respectable than maradona or messi because he did not cuck out and play for europeans, he stayed in Brazil and played For Brazil and Defeated European Clubs as A BrazilianSouth americans have done this weird thing sometime between Pele and Maradona where they willingly entered sports colonization and even celebrate it.As a White American i could not imagine such a thing, in every sport we care about my country cucks the rest of the world out of their players as a testament to the superiority of our LeaguesGranted Europe has a weird cuckoldry-ring thing going on with their top clubs but they're all still fellow Europeans, not a different continent
>>154954045If Pele had played in the 80s he would have signed in Italy and Spain like the rest of them. Even Zico played a couple of seasons for Udinese.
>>154952156So you're in your 50s is what you're saying ?
>>15495434840s.I didn't watch Maradona in the 80s.
>>154954045Pelé stayed in Brazil because it was better then euro and more money en infrastructure nothing else
>>154954587>>154954318even if it wasn't by choice he remained uncuckedby comparison messi is basically an HGH test tube baby of the spanish
>>154954629Meme aside I watched Messi footage of him at 10 years old before he went to Barca and he was genuinely talented and above his peers if it was that easy Barca and others would have humanly engineer 10 more players
>>154954500So you watched Maradona in the 90s when he was washed up. Who cares.The 80s Serie A was a about a million times more competitive than 2010 la Liga.
>>154955317this for me its always D10S > mesi > rest
>>154951133Maradona was pushed to Pelé status by Argentinians desperately looking for someone to rival with Brazil. Zico was a better player than him, but because he didn't win a WC, he didn't get meme'd as much.>>154951226>if a player pass the "eye test" then that means they are overrated>Swede flagMakes sense>salah doesnt pass the so-called "eye test" but hazard doesSalah is system dependent, Hazard is not. Hazard's flaw is not trying to fit in systems he doesn't like but he can play greatly in pretty much any team you put him, while Salah will be mediocre in many setups where he isn't used as one of the offensive threats. Versatility is what differ greats from legends in many cases. Players like Zidane, Rivaldo, Kroos, DeBruyne, etc., will find a way to play great no matter where. You euros for some reason often forget that a sport can be played in many ways.>>154953821>maradona took a relegation napoli to 2 scudetto wins in the most competitive league on the planet and to a uefa cup>in the most competitive league on the planetKek, in Europe*
>>154951133Pelé playing in farmers era but you're correct in saying Messi is the goat
>>154955317Yes, I watched him since the 90s. I was fully aware of it, of football, since June 1990 against Cameroon, but I saw it. Besides, I grew up watching him during that decade. And because I grew up watching him, I saw absolutely everything he did in the 70s and 80s, understanding the context in which he achieved it. In those years, he seemed unbeatable, and Pelé didn't even exist. Later, with the internet, I was able to revisit the past and realize that I had been living a story, a fabrication, a narrativa, a lie. After Messi's career, I was able to place him where he truly deserved to be: third among the best in history.
Maradona had soul, he wasn't an autistic HGH midget engineered by UEFAlona and FIFA
>>154956837That's narrative. Did you analized Maradona match by match?
>>154956837And even, let's say you're right. Let's say Maradona had more "soul" than Messi and Pelé combined. Does that make him a better player? What good is that aspect if it didn't help you perform better on the field when you were a player? Do you value the narratives and the epic story more than actually determining who is better? Because with a dispassionate and objective analysis, both Messi and Pelé surpass Maradona as players, no matter how much "soul" he possessed.
No one alive actually watched Pele play. So it's only a discussion between Maradona and Messi we can have. They both did what no one else was capable of doing. They're both great.And as for soul, it's mainly about being popular. The more obscure you are, the more "soul"you have. So a few years after Messi retires he'll have more "soul".
>>154958056>The more obscure you are, the more "soul"you have. So a few years after Messi retires he'll have more "soul".I think you're right, anon. Narratives are what prevail, and unfortunately, that's what will be remembered about Messi in the future. I just hope that in that distant future, or perhaps not so distant, there will also be people who take the time to watch Messi or Maradona match after match and form a better, more truthful opinion of these players. But I doubt it. The consumption of narratives and oversimplifications will likely prevail.
>>154958539You're the one trying to create a narrative where your opinions are the objective truthFor starters, defenders when Marodona played were far aggressive and the rules were much more lenient towards physical playPissi would have had a career ending injury before he could even have the chance to statpad against Eibar
