A good deal of heroic fantasy RPGs have minion/mook rules: D&D 4e, 13th Age, Pathfinder (troops), Draw Steel, Daggerheart, Tom Abbadon's ICON, and more. How much in-universe weight do you give to minion vs. non-minion status? Do you try to seriously justify it, or do you leave it as nothing more than a purely gamist contrivance?Examples:• 13th Age 2e: A "ragged outlaw" is a 1st-level mook. An "archer outlaw" and a "brutal outlaw," both still generic units, are 1st-level standard monsters. Five mooks are as powerful as a single standard monster of the same level, so it takes five "ragged outlaws" to equal the overall threat of an "archer outlaw" or a "brutal outlaw," to say nothing of stronger NPCs.• Pathfinder 2e: In the NPC Core, a "captain of the guard" is a 6th-level combatant. A "city guard squadron," a 20-by-20-foot square full of guards, is 5th-level. Thus, a "captain of the guard" is more dangerous than 400 square feet packed with guards.• Draw Steel: The four generic bugbear statistics blocks are all EV 16 each. Four "bugbear mobs," each a 15-by-15-foot square full of bugbears, are worth a total of EV 7. Thus, one of those EV 16 bugbears is more dangerous than eight bugbear mobs: eight 15-by-15-foot squares (total of 1,800 square feet) packed full of bugbears.• Daggerheart: At tier 1, a group of "sellsword" minions equal to the size of the party is worth 1 point. A single "archer guard" or "bladed guard" is worth 2 points, a single "head guard" is worth 3 points, and a "weaponmaster" is worth 4 points. For example, if there are four PCs, then a single "weaponmaster" is as dangerous as 16 "sellswords."• Tom Abbadon's ICON: A mob twice the size of the party is roughly as dangerous as a standard enemy, or half as dangerous as an elite enemy (to say nothing of legendary solo enemies). For example, if there are four PCs, then a single standard enemy is as dangerous as 8 mob members, and a single elite enemy is as dangerous as 16 mob members.
>>96430688It's an awful, gamist contrivance and I've no interest in playing any system with such a rule.
>It'th an awful, gamitht contrivanthe and I've no interetht in playing any thythtem with thuch a rule.
>>96430688I justify the "in-universe weight" of minions through the game's mechanics.The short version is that the more minions in a unit, the less statistical power they have, but will come with stronger active skills performed with resources and setup statuses.One category of Heroes (player controlled characters), Allies (non-hostile NPCs), and Foes (hostile NPCs) is the "Unit Type". Heroes have fewer Unit Types to choose from, but the general rule for all characters is that the more characters in a Unit, the weaker they are in terms of raw Attributes (kinda like the "inverse ninja" trope), but the stronger their resource-based Skills are.Larger Hero Units also increase the complexity of their role in battle. The "Squad", which is comprised of 3 minion Heroes, features tactics revolving around intersecting the lines between each other to build "resonance", which grants the Squad passive bonuses, and causes passive effects within the Squad's "triangle". The player controlling the Squad will need to consider when their Heroes intersect each other's lines, and keeping their triangle as large as possible, while avoiding or preventing danger.A "Duo" of Heroes will only require the player to track the Marking statuses they can apply, and generally only one mark can be active per Unit.A Solo Hero won't have any additional resources or statuses to track, beyond those considered by the chosen class and weapon.I do this because I like my games to have options, and variety between the options, but I know this is too complex for a lot of people to want to keep track of.
>>96430688It's not just D&D clones that have minions, btw, don't let OP fool you. Star wars FFG had minions too.Any game trying to emulate "cinematic" action media should have minions because it's extremely common in action stories for a single hero to take down hordes of weak enemies.Even GURPS, for all its simulationism, has "cinematic" rules that have "cannon fodder" die in a single successful hit.
>>96430688You first.
>>96430688Its dumb and i dont like it so i never use it>this enemy isnt a challengeWell then they arent much of an enemy are they? Why have them at all?
>>96430688> How much in-universe weight do you give to minion vs. non-minion status?The same amount I give to the difference between a fourth and first level fighter. It represents something meaningful in universe, but not some formal difference like this is a LitRPG setting.If we’re talking, minion versions of much lower level opponents, then no, that’s just to speed up combat.
>>96431134t. guy who complains that wizards are overpowered compared to fighters because he never runs more than one encounter per day
>>96431134>this enemy isnt a challengeWhat gave you the impression that minions aren't a challenge?They are a challenge, they simply have low HP and come in big numbers.
>>96431174You're conflating minion rules and massed combat rules
>>96431344No I'm not. Read the OP again. In every case, minions are described as being in groups of 4 or more. Minons are a challenge, in that they come in big numbers.
>>96430694fpbpThe idea that game mechanics inform the game world rather than being a convenience at the game table is pants on head retarded.
>>96430688Works very well in pulpy genre fiction. Conan kills soldiers by the double-handful with no noticeable difficulty. Zorro can clown on an entire platoon of Mexican infantry at once. Boromir can hew heapings of uruk-hai while mortally injured.But if you're not running pulp or high heroic fantasy, it doesn't really serve too much purpose. I wouldn't use Mook rules in WFRP, for example, unless I wanted extraordinarily heroic PCs to be fighting skaven swarms without combat taking a week.
>>96430688Although not in the Basic Set, GURPS: Action does have guidelines for different tiers of enemies. The ones I follow go like this:>Minion: automatically fails all HT rolls and Morale checks; they never Aim or Evaluate and always All-Out Attack or All-Out Defend; their tactics are non-existent, unless lead by an Elite or Boss.>Elite: these guys follow all the Combat and Injury rules as written; they always Aim before shooting, use Extra Effort if available, and only All-Out Attack when at an advantage or All-Out Defend if being pressured; they use basic tactics like sticking to cover, maneuvering to flank the PCs while another Elite provides covering fire, and so on.>Boss: like Elites, but with more special abilities and some plot protection; they get a handful of bonus points to spend exclusively on Impulse Buys like Flesh Wounds or automatic success on Defense/Resistance roll; if fighting solo, then each of their body parts or special abilities might get split into its own character that has its own HP/FP and turns in combat, so each part must be fought and defeated separately and can't be overwhelmed merely by Action Economy or incapacitating afflictions.
>>96431643>>Boss: like Elites, but with more special abilities and some plot protection; they get a handful of bonus points to spend exclusively on Impulse Buys like Flesh Wounds or automatic success on Defense/Resistance roll; if fighting solo, then each of their body parts or special abilities might get split into its own character that has its own HP/FP and turns in combat, so each part must be fought and defeated separately and can't be overwhelmed merely by Action Economy or incapacitating afflictions.Where is this from? That's not what GURPS action says about bosses>Bosses are worth designing as individuals. They can range from 50-point wimps – no doubt with scary henchmen as bodyguards – to challenging opponents built on templates from Action 1: Heroes with an extra 50-100 points!
>>96432177You're absolutely right. That's because I made it the fuck up. Should've clarified that it was a mix of stuff in the actual book and stuff I modified for my actual games.In hindsight, it would've been better to name it to something else like "solo" to avoid confusion with "bosses" in the book. But that would confuse my players who don't read and are more familiar with bosses from video games.
>>96430694It's a narrativist rule actually.
>>96432557Oh ok, you got me real confused for a second.
>>96431134In 13th Age a blob of level-appropriate minions can really fuck you up.
>>96431134The entire point of minions is that they can still pose a challenge, because despite having minimal HP, they can have attack and damage to compensate for the party's level.There's more to being challenging than just having a lot of HP. Otherwise nobody would use mages as enemies.
>>96431344No he isn't, massed/swarm units are a way to abstract massive groups of minor enemies into a single token and statline without affecting the action economy. They will usually have a shitload of HP, ok stats, move through tokens, and make area attacks.Minions are deliberately weak units that are individualized and dangerous in large numbers because despite having minimal HP they massively inflate the enemy action economy.
>>96430688Hi 2huFor me any character 5 levels below the PCs gets treated as a minion in combat but a minion of the same level as rhe PCs that way even low level soldiers can hurt them.t.6 years of homebrewed 4e DM
>>96430803KEK
>>96430688None whatsoever. It's completely retarded.Different categorizations can be used to convey relative mechanical power, but attributing in-universe and narrative weight to it is absolutely fucking stupid. Kill yourself.>Pathfinder 2eShit beyond human conception.
>>96430688I prefer the format of Battle Century G's take on it. Where player and rival mechs are built with the general formula of 100 points + 30 points per BL rank, while Grunts get 50 points + 30 points per BL rank. In general, it's designed in a way so that 2 grunt mechs are worth fighting as much as 1 player mech. But that's not all there is to it. Early on in a campaign, this 50 point difference is a pretty severe gap and players will be able to brute force their way through grunts. But as the campaign progresses, this 50 point difference means less due to the exponential cost of raising stats. And by late into the campaign, for a player to beat two grunts, it will require clever use of Genre Powers. Genre Powers being the metacurrency that becomes more abundant the more the campaign progresses.Narratively this goes and in hand with the game mechanics. As a lot of mecha animes start with the player's mech being a sort of experimental prototype or secret weapon that is better than what's available. But as time passes, that technological gap narrows, and the MC has to rely more on the experience he's accumulated over the course of the show. Or you know, newtype powers, but both effectively translate into the same result. Overwhelming skill.
>>96430688Should always be justified by the fiction.In my games, minions have clear descriptors and names that indicate these opponents may be dangerous, but they are made of tissue paper. A "sparking" combat robot that is missing armor and has exposed wiring. A "rusted" tank dragged back into service from generations past. "Panicky" conscripts and "malnourished" penal legionnaires. Smaller monsters that could reasonably die/flee with a single stab or shot.
>>96432559Well, no, but it is potentially functional as a mechanic to serve narrative purposes. Kind of like how you repurposed a sock to make up for your mother's vagina. The sock isn't intended for that. But you made it work anyway.Here's the actual truth:>>96430694FPBPPCs should not have minions. Ever.
