What are some good games where the focus is on stealing things and combat may be possible, but is a last resort?
>>96432763D&D on first level, with level 3 tier monsters.
>>96432763AD&D 1E.
>>96432980The idea that OSR encourages avoiding combat is largely exaggerated.
>>96432763Unironically the pic (AD&D1 and Basic D&D). Your main XP gain is based on the treasure you gained in the adventure, and combat XP is relatively small compared to it.
AD&D 1e has rules for burglaries, and Thief characters get less exp if they don't acquire wealth by cunning and subterfuge.Read the rules, play rules as written.
>>96432980>>96433877>>96434703What part of "good" did you fail to understand?AD&D is a clumsy outdated relic with awkward rules.
>>96432763BX
>>96434957Well then just use whatever modern system and rework the XP subsystem into another thing than combat. It's not really that hard.1) Identify a gameplay loop(s) that you want encourage & discourage [Old D&D made found gold into XP gain, because you wanted to encourage finding treasure not combat].2) Make sure combat detrimental overall [No treasure drops from slaying enemies, penalization for killing like in a CoC or other horror games, make damage very lethal, etc.]3) Set the rate for your campaign that seems reasonable [Usually a level up 1~2 session, 2 skill boost per session, etc.]If your lazy/retarded to figure it out you can even make combat encounters bit overpowered to make it a gamble in any system to deter-players.Also honestly which system outside of modern D&D and it's clones (post-3.0) gives straight XP for killing enemies? I think most system now go for "story milestones" and straight-up brownie points for showing up at the table. Like if you don't want reward fighting just don't for those.
>>96432763If players feel like they can lose every combat and stealing always seem to be the easier option they will adapt accordingly, it isn't a question of system
>>96432763Blades in the DarkIt's a game about heists and thievery.The OStards are going to cry about it, but all D&D is garbage for heists and whatnot. It's fine for dungeon treasure, but dungeon treasure isn't stealing things.
>>96433512If I got just one gold coin for every time an old-school dungeon put a chest with 5000 gp behind the room with its biggest encounter, I'd almost be at level 3 now.
Leverage .
>>96435618Blades in the Dark is ass. Not because the system isn't interesting, it's fine for what it is. But it's also ass because it's populated predominantly by the kind of people who need a system for a heist instead of just planning a heist in whatever they were in before. The people who need a system for that shit are fundamentally incapable of planning a heist on their own.
>>96432763All of them unless you're retarded.
>>96433512the point is that you don't -have- to fight or do some bullshit plot to advance your character.
>>96437103This is the most retarded take on this whole board, and I just saw someone say Lancer is good. Please play real games.
>>96432763Twinkies & Pockets 2nd Ed.
>>96434957No it's great.
>>96437103If you need more rules than pic rel, you're both a hylic, a retard and you should ponder the question, "what if you hadn't had breakfast this morning".
>>96437103>No, you actually SHOULD force DnD to do every genre instead of playing games designed for themHave I wandered into bizarro /tg/?
>>96432763you don't need a "system" to give the guards big guns and an open window on the third floor
>>96438513>this game is better than D&D at this specific thing because it has a system for it!!!Systems are there to help adjudicate fuzzy spots, but a heist has no fuzzy spots, at its core it's just a plan to rip someone off. Do you need a system to tell you how to think about things and then execute those things which you had previously thought about? If your answer is yes, then the system cannot help you because your core problem is that you can't fucking make a plan, and if your answer is no then you obviously don't need Heist Points to see your plan through. The reason that heists suck in D&D is the reason most D&D experiences suck: because most players don't really want to do a heist arc, at least not the guts of it where you spend a half-dozen sessions reconnoitering the mansion and getting an in as hired help for the big soiree which you'll use as both pretext for entry and the distraction for the job.
>>96438513Nah it's just nogames /tg/.
>>96444413Play a game, faggot.What you're describing is project planning. You have any idea what a chore project planning is?
>>96445888That's what a heist is, dumbass! If this were just an ordinary adventure then whatever but this is specifically about a scheme, and what the fuck is left if you've abstracted the scheming out of the scheme?
>>96449440The execution, moron.Try playing running a heist game like you proposed, and see how well it goes.
>>96449506I have, and they've gone fine. You guys just don't want to actually do a heist, you want to stand around posing up a storm while the DM throws money at your feet. Which is fine for baby's first power fantasy campaign but pipe down when you get into more niche genres of campaign.
>>96449565>I have, and they've gone fineSomehow I doubt you since you didn't even understand what a heist was.
>>96449573One of us doesn't understand what a heist is, I agree with you on that.
>>96449597>n-no uKek
>>96449600Abstracting the planning away from it is just a consolation prize for players too stupid to actually come up with a plan. But even so, D&D allows for your characters to be smarter than your players. So, what's the appeal of the alternate system?
>>96449616>Abstracting the planning away from it is just a consolation prize for players too stupid to actually come up with a plan.Sure.If you were to spend 6 sessions planning one aspect of the heist though, you'd be a retard. But that's never happened because you're a nogames.
>>96449650No, they spent six sessions getting everything reconned out and prepared for the heist, then another three sessions for the execution.
>>96449670>No, they spent six sessions getting everything reconned outChanging the wording doesn't change anything whatsoever. Any real person who has even played in a heist, let alone ran one, could tell you that recon alone would take maybe an hour at best at a slow table where it's not easy to do. I can't think of a single time when it took my groups more than a session to get done with the planning stage of a heist. The closest thing to it was having to finish a side quest for an evil noble lady to get our two pointmen invited to the exhibition we were going to steal from, and even that took only a session.
>>96435618>BitDSir, that's a narrative system.
>>96449713This one required some more planning than yours, and they did chase down a few alternate plans in that time. They were aiming to steal a big gemstone that was to be on display in the ballroom of this mansion, and their first thought was to just break into the vault where it was being held but they tripped the alarm on their way in and had to bail, and then security got even tighter. They then tried to find someone on staff they could bribe but came up dry due to poor rolls. The party ended up using a combination of spellcasting and skill checks to grab the stone; Sorc casting enlarged Darkness while the Wizard hit the dais with Silence so the fighter could grab the entire case, stuff it into the Wizard's bag of holding and replace it with a replica case (also in the bag of holding) and leave in the chaos. The Bard also managed to stash and subsequently light some fireworks around the upper floors which aided in the distraction, while seeming innocuous from anyone looking outside.
>>96449825>This one required some more planningSorry, but no I'm not going to believe that you're so retarded you need to take 6x longer than it does to run entire quest lines just to deal with heist planning. Anyone that incompetent would never manage to run a game in the first place.
>>96449846It wasn't just me, it was the players! We all spent a lot of time hemming and hawing about what to do.
>>96449856Sorry, but no I'm not going to believe that you're so retarded you need to take 6x longer than it does to run entire quest lines just to deal with heist planning. Anyone that incompetent would never manage to run a game in the first place.
>>96449860At least I can describe my game.
>>96449871You did a pretty bad job of doing that too, it sounded like something an AI would slop out if you told it "make up a heist story for dungeons and dragons"
>>96449894Well, it wasn't. And it was an arc I remember pretty fondly.
>>96449903It wasn't what? You read and type like a thirdie.Also so fondly you can't describe it in a way that doesn't make my eyes glaze over in boredom. Yeah, never happened, I'd rather believe that than imagine the misery of a party with such an incompetent GM.
>>96449923Go be miserable somewhere else then.
>>96449945Given you feel the need to make up games that never happened so you can give dogshit advice, I think you're more miserable than I've ever been.
>>96449959I'm really not, but you seem really mad that someone had fun outside of your metrics for fun.
>>96449970I don't even believe your story occurred, so why would I be angry over it? Seems to me that you're projecting after I didn't buy your bullshit.
>>96449981Well, go ahead and tell me your heist then. You're not going to, because that would require you open up to a stranger on the internet, and I doubt you can even do that to people you know. It is what it is. Enjoy your lack of games, Mr. Anon!
>>96449997>Well, go ahead and tell me your heist thenYou're boring and of no interest to me, why would I bother?>You're not going to, because that would require you open up to a stranger on the internetTelling a story is "opening up" in your eyes? Jesus, that's sad. You must have never gone out partying in your entire life.>Enjoy your lack of games, Mr. Anon!I ran a PC's intro session yesterday and don't mind posting the logs of one I ran online a while ago. Sorry nogames, but your projections don't make others lesser, they just make your own shortcomings as a person more apparent.
>>96450025If you didn't mind posting them, you would've just done so! Don't worry Senor Nogames, your secret is safe with me :)
>>96450067>If you didn't mind posting them, you would've just done so!Nah, I'll wait until you get upset and demand proof, it's funnier that way.I like how you couldn't refute anything I said btw. Must suck realizing you can't even make up a passable story, even with the help of a robot.
>>96438496I actually didn't have breakfast this morning.Thanks for reading my blog.
>>96450091Your position is "this is made up" which as we've seen with other insane people requires an insurmountable burden of proof. But you keep on not playing your games, enjoy your "intro session" which you played both sides of, if you did it at all
>>96434957That's precisely why it works so well for the stated goal. Nobody will want to engage with the combat rules so will do everything possible to avoid combat.
>>96432763Blades in the Dark, if you're trying to be a sneaky group instead of a "we kick their door down" kind of group.
>>96449798Irrelevant to what the OP was asking for. He didn't say simulating a heist, he said...>What are some good games where the focus is on stealing things and combat may be possible, but is a last resort?Which is exactly what BitD is. It's, in fact, the best game out there for thievery and burglary-based games. What few mechanics it has are bent towards making the heist as enjoyable as possible for anyone without D&Drone autism.
>>96432763Shadowrun is this by definition. Your team's goal is almost never to kill someone in normal play, and you cannot possibly win a battle against the full forces of a corporation or the police, so in almost all combats your goal is to raid or escape rather than to conquer. The only exception to this is minor skirmishes between criminal groups that don't pull in police or corpos, but these are rare or nonexistant for most campaigns. In the ideal run, no enemy knows exactly whats happening until you are gone, so there is no combat until someone makes a mistake.Probably this is all true of Cyberpunk as well, but I know almost nothing about it.
>>96450103But what if you did?
>>96449670Holy fuck. In that arbitrary time line you just made up, I could run two whole adventures, or one mini campaign.
>>96454070And Mcdonald's makes better hamburgers than your mom because they sell more of them
>>96452678>Probably this is all true of Cyberpunk as well, but I know almost nothing about it.More or less the same. You can't hope to stand a chance against the likes of Arasaka if you go in loud. Luckily most of their boots on the ground are in reserve watching their neighbors ready for the moment the corpo wars go hot again you can harass them, but more often than not as long as you don't do irreparable damage they can make an honest try to get it back up until they can just write it off as a loss. Depending on what you're filchingOr atleast that's what it was like. I never looked too deeply into what Red setting is like but I assume they don't make it so you're a serious threat to them. Out and out combat is more reserved for like street gangs
>>96433512One of the iconic art pieces is of a PC running like hell from monsters that just killed their cute cleric friend and swearing revenge on the wizard with the goofy name responsible.
>>96458581Do you also need two hours to prepare a burger?
>>96458756BARGLE YOU FUCKING BASTARDAARGH
