Which game is currently in a worse state?
>>96466285That's like asking which kind of shit tastes better, runny or solid? They're both shit and unfit to eat.
>>96466285Magic. 40K at least has interesting variants and doesn't take a massive shit on one of the greatest fantasy franchises of all time by blackwashing well known characters
Magic, 40k’s biggest failings come from trying to attract the Magic crowd.
>>96466285Magic and it's not even close
>>96466285Magic, but mostly because Warhammer hasn't undergone Fortniteification and started ramming licensed crossovers into the setting at the expense of its own brand identity.
Magic. How is this even a question?
>>96466285Magic by a huge margin.
>>96466285GW is still making Warhammer models.WotC isn't making Magic the Gathering IP cards anymore.
40k. Magic has fun formats and draft is consistently good. 40k, meanwhile, has always been dogshit.
>>96466670Warhammer has black people in it too anon
>>96466979Spiderman being slop doesn't change the fact that 40k was always shit despite never importing crossover trash.
>>96466955Yes, but Warhammer didnt went and said "Alright lads, Karl Franz is a african now! And Guilliman too! And did you know, we made Louen Lioncour black! And Marneus Calgar? Yeah, he is a asian now."
>>96467064But Aragorn isn't a pre-established character in Magic's lore anon
>>96466285Magic
>>96467245are you just pretending to be dense enough to not get the point, or are you really that stupid?
>>96467498I just wish you used an example that made sense anon. If they made Jace or Chandra black suddenly then you'd have a point.
>>96466670The blood of Numenor is truly spent.
>>96467245why does the distinction matter
>>96466285definitely Magic, 40k at least manages to not ruin its characters every single time they try to do something with said characters, and still has enough ideas of its own that it hasn't attempted to make "the characters all put on cowboy hats" unironically a thing.
>>96467245It doesn't have to be, you dumb fucking nagger.
>>96466285Magic by far. I put it down years ago and never looked back. My friends still play occasionally but every time they mention new cards or sets its always with a sense of resigned dread. The brand has been ruined well past recovery.
MTG by leagues, but dosnt excuse 40ks downward slope. MTG ilhas gone to slop levels never thought possible. Shit art with diversity quotas, shit cross overs, shit plots (hurr durr im a bisexual cowboy). Cards literally meant to break the game so you buy boxes, and they ban them immediately. 40k is, luckily, not so deep in the swamp that they cant reverse now that the cultural pendulum is swinging back to some sense of normalcy.
Games workshop has a net worth of 6.59 billion and Hasbro has a net worth of 11 billion. So according to capitalism WH40k is doing worse.
^ terrible bait post, no (you) for you
>>96466979SCHLMO QUE THE MUSIC!
>>96468221i feel like this is wotc punishing us for making so many custom cards and meme cards. We built this fucking timeline
>>96468221Check out sorcery. It's fucking great
>>96468295Jewish hands wrote this post.
>>96468173it does if you want the argument to make sense
>>96466979>hating on bagelsAt least use a dog whistle like miles anon>>9646628540k because at least mtg has some players that aren't gross
>>96469504>40k because at least mtg has some players that aren't grossI'm a pretty new MTG player and I absolutely fell in love with it, and I decided to go to my first tournament at my local collectors store. It was awful though. I signed up, pretty excited, and for context I'm an 18 year old girl. I was immediately made uncomfortable with like 2 guys coming up to me, I tried to be polite but they were asking really personal questions beyond MTG, things about my dating life. I finally sat down to play, and when i do I nearly gag from the smell, the guy I was playing with smelled like a mix of BO, booze and piss. I lost and I said good game, I'm just being polite, and he is bragging and just generally being a sore winner. I just left, I didn't want to stay at all. Is it always this awful or am I just unlucky? Or maybe I broke some unspoken etiquette I didn't know about?Edit: I've read all the replies and appreciate the advice! I live in a small more rural town so it's the only card shop near me. I'm a very nonconfrontational person so I don't know how comfortable I can be with bringing up issues to the management. I will definitely try and go back during more casual games, or even go to the next town over if I still have issues. Thank you all!
>>96469585>for context I'm an 18 year old girlPost tyranids or gtfo
>Pic related.This is Magic now.No matter how bad 40K, AoS or any game of GW is, Magic is worse by very very far in any aspect (prices, bullshit story, consumers, shitty products, etc.)
>>96469638>HeavySetBadass.jpg>>96466691Picrel is to blame of course
>>96469638>>96469663these have to have some of the worst flavor text i've ever read. its a toss up which is worse.
40k up until wizards made UB standard sets. Yes I know final fantasy was fine and they made a ton of money and ff fans love it. But it paved the way for Spiderman. It made them think that this is ok.
>>96467521nta but Kayla is exactly what you want
>>96469638How does this chunky chink not have Defender?
>>96466533Not yet
>>96466533>blackwashingmore like shitstaining
>>96470095Adopting that kek
>>96466533>40K>one of the greatest fantasy franchises of all time>my_sides.jiffYou should do stand up or something...
>>96466285Magic completely sold its soul. Warhammer has to grit through occasional woke retcons, but nothing completely earth-shattering
>>96470178You should learn to read.
>>96466670>>96467335The funniest thing about races of Magic is that they make no biological sense. Arwen is white, but her grandma Galadriel is black. Eomer is white, but his uncle Theoden and sister Eowyn are black. Do kids on Magic Middle-Earth just get a random skin color at birth?
>>96468295That's actually surprising. I had no idea GW was over half as big as hasbro. Actually that's pretty fucking ridiculous. I'd have expected it to be at, like, 2% the size. I know GW exploded around 8th (unsustainably) but has Hasbro also completely collapsed or something?
>>96470446Magic: The Gathering and Monopoly are quite literally the only successful Hasbro products in the current year. D&D has been taking hits too, most recent fiascos including the official VTT crashing and burning and senior creatives abandoning the ship.
>>96466285Magic doesn't even exist as a meaningful IP anymore, it's just funkopops on card paper
>>96466285Yugioh>b-but-Yugioh
>>96466285Magic. It went from a fantasy card game to fortnight multiverse SHIT so quickly my head is spinning. Spongebob squarepants cards? Really? REALLY??? WHAT THE FUCK?!At least 40k doesn’t have literal cartoons (and any other advertising IP they can whore out to) in their game. Which is a very low bar.40k has been shit for a very long time too but still at least pretends to care about the lore.
>>96470611I'm now imagining a brand new Warhammer 40K Crusade about the Imperium spending 10 million lives to secure an STC of the 2026 Honda Prelude with optional heated seats
>>96466533>the greatest fantasy franchises of all time But that's the thing, outside of a bunch of nerds nobody really cared about the magic IP and wizard never managed to make people care about it. Llanowar elves is iconic because of its role as a card but if you ask most magic players what Llanowar is they probably can't answer. Mtg went so easily into UB because the core of the game will always be good, you don't have any other card game with as much depth and deck building options but the IP part, the settings has always been the weakest part and most people just don't care about it.
>>96470678He’s talking about LoTR and black Aragon autist kun
>>96470691Black Aragorn alone would be halfway acceptable since isn't he from different ancient stock? Every place looking like modern London is fucking ass though, I wish we could have the cool black heroes of yore back without invoking cuckshit
>>96470706Aragon was white in the books. There really is no excuse> Frodo found that Strider was now looking at him, as if he had heard or guessed all that had been said. Presently, with a wave of his hand and a nod, he invited Frodo to come over and sit by him. As Frodo drew near he threw back his hood, showing a shaggy head of dark hair flecked with grey, and in a pale stern face a pair of keen grey eyes.
>>96470727To play devil's advocate a bit here, jotc did come out and say "lmao it's our vision, we have permission from Tolkien's family, we'll do whatever the fuck we want, chuds" and they're not technically wrong, even if Tolkien's family right now are the crazies who approved Rings of Power as well. 'Reimagining' a work like LotR for a more 'modern audience' is what they wanted to do (that, and they couldn't get the rights for the movie appearances), they didn't want to do a faithful representation.
>>96470760Tolkien’s family are obviously terrible stewards of his work. Just trying to milk as much money as they can out of it before it becomes public domain.
>>96470650https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vincent_Black_Shadow_bikehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Black_Shadow
>>96466670>>96466979>>96467335>>96469638Wasn't Magic supposed to have its own worldbuilding and stuff? What's with the slop from other franchises? WH40K may be in a terrible state but at least it doesn't have random references to other shit.
>>96470772It did once. Now it’s all turned into multiverse slop.
>>96466670white boys will never recover from this
>>96470760>technically not wrongNobody is talking about legal priveleges when they say something is right or wrong. Many things are perfectly acceptable by law but wrong to do, and vice versa. Even corporate lawyers would tell you so, every single one.This point is a pet peeve of mine. Seeing it brought up pisses me off, since it almost always succeeds in pivoting the conversation into laymen shitflinging about copyright or contracts or whatever.
>>96470772See>>96470678
>>96470787You are misunderstanding me, anon. I'm not discussing the legality of the move (it's very obviously legal, IP law doesn't care whether 'Aragorn' is depicted as black or white), I am responding to anon saying "there's no excuse for making Aragorn black", but there very clearly is (the creatives at jotc wanted to make him black, and they got green light from corporate to do so). Whether you think all representations of LotR should exactly follow Tolkien's work (or as close as it can possibly be) or whether you believe new creators can (or should) take liberties with it, or any other fictional work that gets handed off to different people, is a different matter, but jotc had a perfectly valid excuse to make Aragorn black, which basically boils down to "they wanted to do it".
>>96470808Yeah, fair, but that's still not what's under discussion, I think.
>>96470760No one is arguing they COULDN'T do it, people are arguing they SHOULDN'T have chosen to do it. Tolkien could have made Aragon black. He could have very explicitly made Aragon 'Jewish Coded' (he told the Nazis he respected Jewish and told them not to publish his books if it bothered them). He didn't, he made Aragon explicitly white. WotC race swapped Aragon, and many other characters, with literally no other reason that to score points, there was no attempt to justify the decision for any other reason than score woke points; they weren't making any narrative point or reinterpretation by doing so.Like, for Miles, there can be an argument that someone who looks like Miles represents the face of a born and raised New Yorker now (get rid of the tourists, students, etc and look at the people born and raised in NYC- they look more like Miles now than fucking Peter). It's a weak as fuck argument but hey, it's a justification. WotC didn't even have a justification besides 'well we can do it so we did get fucked CHUDS.'
>>96470808>jotc had a perfectly valid excuse to make Aragorn black, which basically boils down to "they wanted to do it".That’s a valid reason to you? I never imagined they didn’t want to do it, aragorn wasn’t suddenly black without them choosing for him to be. It wasn’t some printing error. I’m saying them choosing for him to be black was a terrible decision because he wasn’t in the books and there is no excuse for it. “Because we wanted to” isn’t an excuse I accept.
>>96467335God I fucking hate libshits like you wouldn't believe.
>>96470832>>96470808The reasons they wanted to niggerify Aragon wasn't just some passing fancy, but it is a symptom of their disgusting world view.
>>9646628540K still has an identity all its own. You can argue all you want whether that spark has been lost or its identity has been muddied and watered down by corporate meddling, but the identity is still there. Meanwhile, MTG is just cardboard fortnite now.
>>96466285Both are shitty as fuck.
>>96468319https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bEZQ00OOxY
>>96466285Pretty sure Magic gutted even it's own gameplay since awhile. That's not even mentioning what they don't with the lore.40k always had a final fallback to - YourDudes and NotCanon, which despite all pretences, Black Library and associated shit falls to.You can have your 40k clean-er, even if you accept dogshit modern rules.
>>96470446Honestly, kinda.Transformers peaked over a decade ago to the point where they apparently begging Michael Bay to come back and make more movies.Goldner diversified into a bunch a non-toy entertainment purchases that either failed or were done just before Covid screwed up the economy.Manufacturing prices have seen their toy prices nearly double in the last decade, which can't be good for sales especially as children have given up on toys generally.
>>96466285Warhammer, obviously. Not only unplayable because of rules bloat and bad design decisions, but also way too fucking pricey.Meanwhile, Magic is still fun from time to time.
>>96466533>something something muh woke, yaddah yaddahMagic can be played and enjoyed, black aragorns or not. But Warhammer now sucks in all of its variants as a game
>>96466285Magic has reached the point of no return. There is no deleting cards, unmaking the releases etc. There is the changing of rules and whatever else for a miniature Wargame
>>96470771Ah yes, the lucrative licensing agreement with a product that had been out of production for over thirty years. My favourite.
>>96470178>>96470678I'm talking about LOTR>>96471240Fuck you. Don't reduce me to some anti-woke warrior screeching and fuming at every instance of black people in media.The LOTR books and movies held a special, dear place in my childhood, adolescence and now adulthood. If you want to suck WOTC cock because they're not forcing you to play with black Aragorn, fine. I'm saying that them raceswapping well established and beloved characters for no apparent reason other than good boy points is a creatively bankrupt decision. That's why they're a company I don't and won't support
>>96466285MTG costs more. MTG's variations are just more expensive. Nobody plays the lopsided commons only variation which is the only affordable type.I have MTG commons tribals decks that havent seen the light of day in almost 9 years.40k you can buy proxies and 3d print if you play with friends. An affordable 2k army can be 350 bucks even officially if you know what to purchase and do it on Ebay/Amazon. I just bought a 2k army off ebay by finding 30k marines and their weapons and purchasing that for a chaos army. I have over 2300pts of marines from that 350 dollar purchase. Free shipping, tax pushed over 350, but thats the real cost of 40k.A competitive deck in any popular format is over 3,400 dollars. People want to play with their expensive cards and ruin their condition. It makes no sense to me. Cards are for saving to sell and playing cards you should be able to bend them and share with friends.
>>96469663>picThe corposhit is so jargonized that I can’t understand a single word he’s saying. Holy shit. I’m switching to 40k.
>>96471228Magic feels incredibly pricey to play, from the FF set price increase to the investor crowd inflating the prices on the second hand market. Sure you can proxy, but if you wanted to have a legal deck for events you're spending obscene amounts of money to stay current with any format that's not specifically about using lower powered cards
>>96472086>MtG is more expensive because the real cards are expensive>40k is cheaper because you can just print cheaper stuffYou know you can also print cards right?
>>96472820nta but I'm guessing MtG tournaments care a lot more about Card proxies than third-party 40k tournaments. outside of doing stuff at Warhammer World in the UK or really big official one at Adepticon, Proxy usage for GW game doesn't seem to be a big deal.
>>96466285its always been magic. look at the average playgroup for both games. 40k is approaching mtg in terms of smelliness but mtg has always held the crown for autism.
>>96466297Would you rather drink shit or eat it?
>>96466285Personal observation:40kers are happy with their slop. The community has normalized proxies and proonts (a double-edged sword).MTGers are worn out by set churn. Several sets have like 5 good cards out of 300. Retailers are frustrated. Proxies are frowned upon.
>>96473167How are proxies and prints a double-edged sword?
>>96472912a lot of tournaments care now. blame 10e and GW
>>96473745proof?
>>96473383some prints look ugly if the individual has poor taste I guess.
>>96470770the last defender of good LOTR adaptations died with Christopher Tolkein. After he died it all went to shit. He called the trilogy of LOTR movies action movie slop. Now no one’s around to stand against the dogshit.
>>96473383>proxiesNobody gives a shit as long as they’re decent>3d printingToxic fumes, shitty files, sellers with garbage quality if you don’t do it yourself, fiddly and a hobby in itself. Give me a nice plastic sprue any day over that toxic crap. Plenty of non GW minis out there.
>>96473751personal anecdote. look up your local tournaments if you care enough.
>>96473953so nothing and you're talking out your ass
>>96468295GW is based in the UK and has their hands on every store in the US. Hasbro is a multinational corpo with numerous acquisitions and MTG is about as small fry as small fries get. With your logic 40k is doing much better than MTG.
>>96473978no nigger I’m talking from experience. this isn’t a debate and I don’t care about proving you wrong. All my locals don’t accept proxies because they’re hosted by stores that sell GW product.
>>96474024you have no experience and you have no models nobody gives a fuck about proxies or prints outside of specific official tournaments held in official GW stores.
>>96473806>the last defender of good LOTR adaptations died with Christopher Tolkein>He called the trilogy of LOTR movies action movie slopSo, uh, what good adaptations did he support?
>>96473979Except that MtG is Hasbro's biggest money maker
>>96466285I think mtg. Hard to find 1 redeeming quality about it. If you don't care about commander, it's almost impossible to find a table to play.No core sets, no more blocks, deluge of UB sets, shit art, shittier lore, playerbase now consist of lifebrand consoomer retards.
Magic's unrecogniseably fucked in ways that I genuinely can't even describe. It's gone from an institution of sorts that propped up multiple mini-industries to a pop culture whale-hunting money printing exercise by cannibalising its own mechanisms, players and soul. The Magic that I started playing is long dead and the Magic that we see today is unsustainable. 40K meanwhile is still 40K; good old GW churning up rules to bait players into buying their overpriced plastic crack. There's been gradual enshittification as with anything, and I've seen their approach change over the years, but they haven't cracked open their own ribcage to tear out and eat their heart and lungs like WotC has. I do own collections for both and I'd play a game of either with friend or stranger, the difference is that 40K makes me feel younger and Magic genuinely makes me feel like a geriatric dinosaur.
>>96466285Warhammer is still making models to collect and paint, which is the real core of the hobby. The tabletop is awful but it's always been awful and has never been the point. M:tG is supposed to be a playable game and it is a total clusterfuck. I give the title to M:tG.
I know nothing of the state of warhammer wargame. can someone give me a quick rundown?
>>96470770>Tolkien’s family are obviously terrible stewards of his work. what?i believe the people okaying it is Cathleen Blackburn and the other executor of the estate
>>96466285If you're talking about gameplay alone then both are poorly balanced in all of their game modes. But I think I would give the crown to Magic. Never have I played a game where you can do absolutely nothing for an hour because randomness of draws a absolutely fucks you. It's rare, but the fact that it happens is failure of game design.With 40k you can get most of your shit wiped off the table quick with an alpha strike, but at least you can do things with your surviving units, and try play for the objectives.
>>96466285While I'd be the first to shit on 40k, mtg is way waaay worse. If 40k suddenly introduced female marines and niggerify some known heroes - then we'd have something to talk about.
>>96469663>GoldnerOf course
>>96469663complete lack of a human soul in his eyes
>>96473809>Toxic fumesWait till you hear inhaling plastic particles from filing your official minis is just as unhealthy as resin dust. Just be fucking careful, idiot. Or have someone else print for you like I do.>Shitty filesThere are bad files just like there are bad official models. Separating them takes no effort.>Sellers with garbage qualityLmao, imagine going to sellers. Anon, there hundreds of dudes with printers out there happy to take requests. The guy who makes mine never ships or charges bad prints and always cures the print so it's hobby-ready; and he's far from unique.I swear not even bible clutchers from the 90s were as afraid of cartoons as you're afraid of prints (then again, I'm willing to bet you're just a paypiggy). Sucks to be you.
>>96475772>Getting this butt blasted because someone doesn't like 3d printingCalm down, you might have a heart attack you fat fuck
>>96475772>Wait till you hear inhaling plastic particles from filing your official minis is just as unhealthy as resin dustNTA but should you wear a dust mask when filing?
>>96470965But you get to have a power fantasy where you are a weird looking tranny like Sami or a Sheboon who works at the DMV like the white green bitch. Fucking faggot leftists
Magic has had the biggest fall from grace and total degradation in quality across every single aspect that it would be nearly impossible to name a product or IP that has imploded even 1/10th as much as it has. I have genuinely never in my life seen anything accelerate as rapidly towards the bottom as Magic has in <5 years. The cardstock and QC in general sucks, the art looks WORSE than ai slop, the mechanic and word count bloat (despite shortening keywords to make more room on cards to jam in more effects) is getting out of hand and encroaching on YGO levels of wordswordswords, the Magic IP and lore doesn't exist anymore and it's a vessel for 3rd party ads, the entire competitive scene is dead and no one plays constructed, they orchestrated a false flag coup to take over the only profitable surviving game mode so they could cater products and sets exclusively to EDH without any opposition (it was a strong possibility that the RC would have pushed back and blanket banned UB), physical print runs are being artificially strangled to the point that even if you wanted to play competitive magic you can't.Upper management genuinely hates you and wishes you would stop playing entirely so they can shift their business model to collectibles catered to whales to rake in as much short term profit before the 90s 'member berries' nostalgia bubble bursts in the early 2030s.
>>96467521This you?
It's insane that they didn't go with the Ikoria's model of how to do UB. I can't even rationalize it from their perspective. Only logical conclussion is that they did it purely out of spite for their existing playerbase.
>>96469638magic has a story?
>>96475265Over the past decade or so, the game of 40k has gone through several editions intended to simplify and streamline the dense and complex ruleset required to accommodate so many and such wildly varied factions as the game has (how well they've done is up for debate, but that's the goal). This has been wildly successful commercially, with the game being more popular than ever, and lots of new blood being brought in, but has also lead to deeply entrenched grogs grumbling about the good old days along with a massively larger competitive scene that GW caters quite a bit too, with frequent (currently every three months) rules updates based on tournament results and player feedback (mainly coming from the tournament players).
>>96478184They probably thought it'd be too much effort to make double versions of all the cards, since then they'd need twice the art and make sure the flavor fits and all that. Now they're forced to do that anyway with the spider-man set.
>>96478867seems cumbersome to keep track of but yeah making new additions every year is prone to get some powercreep issues eventually and banning a unit seems like the worst solution.that being said even magic has had some rules changes of all things when bans are not enough and warp the game so much they have to either nerf a whole mechanic or change it for god knows what reason. shit sucks over here in that regard too so if that is the only negative, magic wins the shittyness award out of the two
>>96470678>Mtg went so easily into UB because the core of the game will always be gooEvery single card game Richard Garfield designed after MtG has better fundamentals.
>>96468311>robert... this rock pisses me off
