>>96475423
I asked the players for one boon they wanted and they chose a safe home base. So I am giving them a massive deserted castle that's effectively impervious to outside attack.

I've got considerably time before we actually play and I'm trying to get everything ready beforehand.
My idea with the castle was to make it huge but leave some or most of it unusable at first so that they can continue to improve it.

My issue is that I can't find a suitable or realistic layout for a tall, massive castle and designing it myself has been more difficult than usual.
Also, I could only think of a couple ways to cut off sections of the castle:
A magically sealed room
A tower closed off by a collapsed roof in need of repair
A flooded basement tunnel

I want several different challenges for them to work to achieve to gain access to an even better base.
But I also don't want dangers within to threaten them, as that was the entire point of their request: a *safe* place to return to and rest. So monsters are out of the question, aside from something like a trapped and sealed demon they can choose how to deal with.

I'm hoping to explore some ideas. If /tg/ still does that?

>>96475423
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HxPwQ4tjFc

>>96475662
I will check that out.
That looks like it actually might be really effective for designing the outside at least. I didn't see interiors.
Definitely better than other programs I looked at.

I am still trying to come up with multiple ways to flow my players down from just getting the full use of the castle or having to upgrade it manually.

I want parts to "unlock" as the explore the land and the castle itself.
I keep thinking of Stargate Atlantis as a dumb example. Where they had to power down almost everything and then slowly explore and uncover secrets.

>>96475423
Just five them an empty tower with rooms to spare duh.
Let them find some artifacts that can be brought in there for increased utility, better yet let them meet NPCs that can move in and provide services and quests.

The cool thing about hidden sections is that you *don't* need to map them out until they are found, though some helpful tricks are to leave walls thick enough to fit passages inside, make the tower sit on a cliff to provide a cave entrance and to have a good amount of large furniture still laying around to hide passages behind or under. Also a conical roof automatically makes an attic a definite inclusion, but very few people actually check it until something starts scratching there in the night.

Also a too complex layout is usually coubterproductive. If I gave my players a fortified tower I'd make it a simple circle or square in 3-4 levels with a single wing at the bottom. One big hall and several small rooms for later housing. Focus on the essentials (water source, fireplace, sturdy gate and dry bedding, a wide view from the top) let the players get wet and cold when they first arrive there and make the weather outside shitty for the first night. This stuff is very ingrained in human psyche.

>>96477769
>Just five them an empty tower with rooms to spare duh.
Kind of missing my point.

>Let them find some artifacts that can be brought in there for increased utility, better yet let them meet NPCs that can move in and provide services and quests
This is already the plan.

>you *don't* need to map them out until they are found
That's not really my style. I enjoy creating a set world with certain things establish beforehand and then players introducing the unexpected elements. And this is intended to be planned rewards for their advancement. It's supposed to be hidden bonus features thru can unlock.
And also another choice for them to engage with. Do they unblock the tower or basement?
I prefer to present many definite options rather than a blank sheet for them to fill. I find it actually yields more creativity.
Otherwise they all jump on the first halfway good idea one of them thinks of. Which tends to hurt be one guy leading the group whether he wants to or not.

>a conical roof automatically makes an attic a definite inclusion, but very few people actually check it until something starts scratching there in the night.
That's a good idea if I can work out a presence that isn't actually a threat.

>a too complex layout is usually coubterproductive.
How does one find the balance of "too complex" though? I don't exactly know how much more to add. I was going to base it off and existing layout but I haven't found one. Usually they're just, yeah, a simple four story shape.

>Focus on the essentials (water source, fireplace, sturdy gate and dry bedding, a wide view from the top) let the players get wet and cold when they first arrive there and make the weather outside shitty for the first night. This stuff is very ingrained in human psyche.
This is very good advice.
I think I might start with struggling to arrive in the weather instead of simply arriving.

File: 1753661296428735.jpg (330 KB, 1258x989)

330 KB JPG

When I need to conceive of something, I pick two Principles from The Secret Histories and combine them.

But:
>I've got considerably time before we actually play and I'm trying to get everything ready beforehand.
>My idea with the castle was to make it huge but leave some or most of it unusable at first so that they can continue to improve it.
you are massively overcomplicating things, long before you actually play. This is the worst thing a GM can do because it will exhaust you.

Just make it an empty tower. That's literally all you need to do.

>>96475445
>My idea with the castle was to make it huge but leave some or most of it unusable at first so that they can continue to improve it.
The problem with this idea is that they are just as liable to stay in and explore the castle or try to puzzle out how to clear it out moreso than they want to head outside, because there is a more obvious reward (nice big clean house) than the outside (maybe treasure that we don't have a clear spot to spend on?) That could still work, but since you said West Marches, I'm assuming you're following the original author's tenant of "No adventure occurs in the 'in town' area" and don't want them couped up inside their base all day.

My immediate thought here is to give them an engineer and staff on hand with no supply train to their location. This does two things:
1. The engineer can send them on quests for materials he needs that he can also tell the players they don't have on hand (I need a blasted sammoflange if we want to build additional pylons!)
2. Having staff on hand with no supply train gives a constant need to get out of the base (We need food! We need water! We need a gladiatorial arena where we can put in magic monsters for entertainment!)

If they are still have a problem with the incentives from 1, you could also provide some sort of unique benefit that the upgrade will provide. e.g. you could have him build an alchemist's laboratory to provide a steady revenue of potions, or an observatory that the clerics can use to watch the stars and divine things which tells them about points of interests and what possible treasures and monsters they have once/week.

Also
>>96477858
>I enjoy creating a set world with certain things establish beforehand and then players introducing the unexpected elements.
Personal question: How experienced are you at DMing so far? Not over-creating to avoid DM burnout is like one of the top 3 pieces of advice EVERY experienced DM hands out, and it sounds like you're trying to massively flub it.

>>96477858
>How does one find the balance of "too complex" though? I don't exactly know how much more to add. I was going to base it off and existing layout but I haven't found one. Usually they're just, yeah, a simple four story shape.
Easy litmus test is to take a picture (or floorplan, which is better) of a real life medieval fort of your aimed size and count the rooms. If it was a real fortification it's going to have exactly enough facilities to support habitation and nothing more. These would be your mundane starting areas.

Since you're set at having preset unlockable areas I suggest you at least nail down what the place was used in the past (which could be multiple builders/occupants for various reasons) Mad wizard lair is a easy but maybe tad cliche. Best if you have some knowledge of your player characters and tie it to them somehow.

Consider keeping the past uses either fringe or downright illegal to justify all the hidden stuff. Smuggling and manufacturing of contraband, evil cults, nobles with weird hobbies, corrupt military garrisons come to mind as possible occupants who'd have a reason to build stashes and hidden rooms. Layered history is great and gives the place a more unique feel while excusing weird modifications that have been done over the years.

This is my personal preference but I strongly prefer mundane ways to hide stuff, like a stone slab on the floor (it's the only one without lichen growing in the seams), walled up door (sounds different if tapped, wall cracks if something collides on it.), fake pillar with ladder inside and of course the classic simple swing door behind the fireplace.

>>96477876
>you are massively overcomplicating things, long before you actually play. This is the worst thing a GM can do because it will exhaust you.
>Just make it an empty tower.
I just want to hide rewards in there that they can't reasonably find and access immediately. That's the idea. It's not that complicated I just can't think of anything not lame or repetitive.
Yes I could just not do the idea. But that's not helpful advice on how to do the idea.

>I pick two Principles from The Secret Histories and combine them.
I do something similar with Alignments but your technique kinda confuses me.

>>96477891
>How experienced are you at DMing so far?
Mildly.

>Not over-creating to avoid DM burnout is like one of the top 3 pieces of advice EVERY experienced DM hands out
Agreed.

>and it sounds like you're trying to massively flub it.
I'm literally just trying to graph the layout of a castle that will be used repeatedly throughout the game and hide positive surprises within it that they can discover as rewards as they progress. It's like, a third of what's involved in making a dungeon.

I just can't figure out how to make the rewards already there but undiscoverable at first.

>The problem with this idea is that they are just as liable to stay in and explore the castle or try to puzzle out how to clear it out moreso than they want to head outside
Well, the idea was for it to help direct and motivate them to go outside so that they can return with more means and choose something to unlock. There's any number of solutions the few I thought of so that's where I stop the preparation and will just roll with their ideas.

>>96477984
>Layered history is great and gives the place a more unique feel while excusing weird modifications that have been done over the years.
This is a good point and something I was already doing although I might consider changing it slightly.
It was originally a lookout tower fortress on the edge of the kingdom with tall towers to see enemy movements at great distances. But centuries ago a war was waged and won and the kingdom expanded four times over and it became the center of the land. Rich nobles used it and remodeled it as an opulent showcase of their wealth and power until rivers were diverted to create vast farmlands, the capital was created in the south, and the wealthy abandoned the area in favor of the capital and the diverted water slowly turned the surrounding land into marshlands that became increasingly difficult to manage and ultimately abandoned and left for whoever took responsibility for the land.

>wall cracks if something collides on it.), fake pillar with ladder inside and of course the classic simple swing door behind the fireplace.
These are giving me some ideas.

For example, they might not be able to find a hidden passageway until the rogue levels high enough or they recruit an NPC with skill.
And an accident might uncover a hidden room. That's another idea to reveal a secret later on but I need to link it to a reward. It's something...

>>96475423
What system?

>>96478198
>Well, the idea was for it to help direct and motivate them to go outside so that they can return with more means and choose something to unlock.
What about the engineer idea I gave you? You focused way too much on the philosophy of DMing aspect. Is it because they "Have to be there" first without someone building it? I can't see a way of that working without either building it or repairing it. If it's something to "unlock" and they gain access right away, then there's not a whole lot stopping them from kicking/bashing/picking/magicking the locks. You do know that Knock in D&D tends to be a 1st level spell, right?

>>96478248
>That's another idea to reveal a secret later on but I need to link it to a reward. It's something...
I think the other issue your idea is running into is there is a huge logical disconnect with the inside of the castle and the outside. For example, if one of the rooms is locked and SOMEHOW the players cannot get through it, there isn't much reason to think that the key is actually being hoarded by Orcs in the North East in their caves for them to explore. That would likely be miles and miles away, and if they managed to get the key, the story you'd have to come up with for why they have it but also didn't use it to raid the castle would be so convoluted that it could be used as the plot of a supernatural romance novel.

Another issue with locking it by player character advancement is still the disconnect with the outside. e.g. if you're basing finding the secret chamber on the Rogue's skill level, then
1. What do you do if he rolls a nat 20? Or powergamed his Rogue to have a +600 at level 1 and beats the DC you intended to "only be beaten at level 5?"
2. If you're not letting him roll, how do you communicate in an elegant way that "going out into open wilderness makes you a better lock pick so you can open that door?" Outside of "that's just the way the game works," there isn't a lot of good narrative for why he wouldn't just stay IN the castle and practice on those locks.
3. What do you do if he *really* fucks up and rolls so low that he permanently damages the lock forever?

Your idea is really fun, but it's also something I would expect to see in a video game where the game can just tell you "You don't get this until I say so" and that's that. When you're dealing with Table Top, you have to think about these situations like a low-tech hacker would. For example, all that stuff about the door? What the fuck do you do if they decide "fuck the door" and then blow up the fucking wall next to it?

>>96475423
Feasible upgrades to the castle that would take time are due to it falling into disrepair, e.g. broken stone, unfertile lands, etc. Your players can then interact by questing to gain control of iron mines, stone quarries, druids for land stuff so that eventual hirelings can build the castle.
For stuff that's in the castle, old spellbooks, treasure rooms, and training manuals could be locked by needing special reagents to unlock them and etc.
Hope that helps, this stuff is really important as a gold sink and for player enjoyment

>>96479383
>Is it because they "Have to be there" first without someone building it?
Pretty much. It's intended to be part of the reward of the castle, a surprise mystery bonus.

>If it's something to "unlock" and they gain access right away, then there's not a whole lot stopping them from kicking/bashing/picking/magicking the locks.
That's why I am having trouble coming up with possibilities.
A flooded tunnel can't easily be explored without planning.
A collapsed roof closing off a tower would be a good reason to get an engineer or mason.
A magically sealed door is good but can only be used once.

The attic idea is good because it's obvious and in plain sight but difficult to reach and they might not think of it until scratching.

There's ways to do it beyond literal locked doors. I just wanted an assortment so it's their choice how to proceed and they can't do everything at once.

>>96479464
>there is a huge logical disconnect with the inside of the castle and the outside.
Well for the magically sealed door, they could research the history of the castle, they could research the magic used, they could seek out powerful dispelling magic, or they might have an even better idea.
It's not about finding the one key. It's about adding friction and challenge to make the reward feel awesome. I'm planning on giving them some tools and gear they were planning on eventually getting. But the reward isn't set in stone at all.

>how do you communicate in an elegant way that "going out into open wilderness makes you a better lock pick so you can open that door?"
It's more about the challenges he faces in the marshes lead him to improve his attention to detail and wariness. Although it would make sense if he found a much cruder hiding spot in some dungeon and recognizes the design of stonework in the fireplace at home or some such.

I wouldn't let high or low rolls override the world by giving him a 5% chance to stumble over or break something that's survived hidden for decades.

>What the fuck do you do if they decide "fuck the door" and then blow up the fucking wall next to it?
For one, they specifically asked for a safe stronghold. The walls are tough.
But also, if they find a way to blow the wall down, that's just them finding their own solution.

Hell. If one PC wants to spend his downtime chiseling his way in I'd allow it.

I just want to avoid "Here's a whole bunch of cool shit you don't value because you got it for free" and then they don't care, plunk it into their inventory, and move on.

If you chiseled for three months in game to get an enchanted dagger, you might be more inclined to remember that dagger.

>>96484615
>That's why I am having trouble coming up with possibilities.
Right, and keep in mind, I'm speaking in terms of abstract game design. So the "flood" acts as a key to the "room" of the tunnel in your scenario. There is ALWAYS a way to pick a lock (like say one your players comes in with a water breathing character, or someone huge that can move derbies, or someone that can fly.)

>Pretty much. It's intended to be part of the reward of the castle, a surprise mystery bonus.
See, but this is also part of the problem I'm referencing. Players get *enticed* by mysteries, and they are going to try and find ways to access them *now* because they are also impatient. This is also why it's imperative to make a logical connection with Door in castle = Key in wilderness. They are more liable to spend tons of time poking at your doors inside, especially when there is no reason for them to think the Key is outside. Like, lets say the flooded tunnel works as your bonus content. What causes me to think that killing the North-East orcs will give me anything that lets me drain the tunnel or navigate it, instead of say looking around the castle for a plug or sewer, or building a siphon, or even just saying "Okay, well we're safe and we have buckets. Time to get to work?"

1/2

>>96484615
Also, I want to pass along a piece of advice before I get too much more into nitpicking these ideas as well. One of the best pieces of advice I received for DMing is "Never deeply care about what you set in front of your players, because they WILL find a way to kill, steal, and/or set it on fire." I think with my experience, the piece of advice I would pass on to a new DM is "Never make something that the player CANNOT kill, steal, and/or set on fire, because they will care about that transgression deeply."

Some of the things you mentioned will for the most part work with some adjustments. But you also need to come to terms with potential ways for them to get around it and get the rewards early if you want to run with this as-is. That's also part of the reason I'm suggesting an engineer come along and build the items themselves instead of trying to fix everything as-is. Your method has a lot of vulnerabilities in them, and that's fine. You just need to be aware and accept that risk of it and maybe even WANT them to do it the smart way.

2/2

>>96484467
>this stuff is really important as a gold sink and for player enjoyment
Yeah. The gold sink element is not lost on me. They're planning on building an outpost town I think. And they're likely going to be scraping everything valuable they can from the marsh.

>>96484678
Me again, just saw your post, but I think my last two addressed the points, so I'll let you absorb it first and see if you have new thoughts. Also, don't think I'm just raining on your parade. I like the idea, just need to give you good feedback is all.

>>96484684
>looking around the castle for a plug or sewer
Perfectly fine.

>building a siphon
They're skilled murderhobos. They'll need an engineer for that. To pay one to come all the way out there, they'll need more money than they have. Therefore going outside to find treasure.

>or even just saying "Okay, well we're safe and we have buckets
It's below the waterline in a swamp.

The idea is that they'll want a solution and need to work for that solution.
On top of that, they'll have dozens of things that need solutions.

>>96484691
>"Never make something that the player CANNOT kill, steal, and/or set on fire, because they will care about that transgression deeply."
Agreed. There's always a way. But I don't entertain brute forcing a solution that won't work because they're willing to bash their heads against a stone wall until it breaks.

>>96484709
No worries. I'm happy for the discussion it's been helpful.
Although I will be unconscious shortly.