>average 5 turns unconscious, blind, and stunned>plus average 2 turns blind and stunned>plus 1 turn stunned>Materials: fucking sand
>>96497660have you tried not playing dnd?
>>964976603.5 is shit, play 5e
Why did WoTC kill this spell so badly...
>>96497660Did you screenshot this with the hubble telescope?
>>96497679clearly he's the recipient of a color spray spell.
>>96497660>15ft cone>4+con mod hpBest hope no one makes their save bro.
>>96497660>Short-af range, this is like three squares, a Lv1 wizard is going to have 5-6 HP on a good day and an armor class of "lmao">Will negates, the odds are good but not fully reliable>Friendly fire is in effect, you need a clear line to something that is going to be within melee range to use it>2HD is nothing, there are very few (if any) CR2 enemies with less than 3HD
>>96497660Don't worry. I've been told on good authority that spellcasters become completely balanced as long as you track spell components.
Was pretty decent in 4e as far as I can tell
>>96497660>2hdA cat looking at them funn
>>96497726>spellcasters become completely balanced as long as you track spell components.Nobody tracks regents, you idiot.
>>96497726>tracking components
>>96497660>15ft range: target passes save, instantly in your face>only affects creatures with 2 or less Hit Diethat spell is functionally useless the moment the party hits level 3, and before then the caster runs the risk of dying to a rusty, poopknife wielding goblin if the frontline drops the ball or there's more than 3 of them
>>96498316No, 2 HD is you getting the full effect. 3-4 HD is you getting stunned and blinded for 1d4 rounds then 1 round afterward, and 5+ HD is getting stunned for 1 round.
>>96497668You sure that's 3.5e, buddy?
>>96498242Based>>96498232>why are casters so OP>get a balancing solution>No one will use this, retard>why are casters so OPI know D&D is shit but you faggots don't make it any less shit
>>96498570It's not a balancing solution.
>>96497660>>96497721>2HD is nothing, there are very few (if any) CR2 enemies with less than 3HDAdding to this even if it does get up to your artillery in sniffing range, your wizards are expending one of very limited spell slots on a mook that your fighters can beat senseless in a turn. A good gm shouldn't have enemies so static that you can reasonably hit more than one guy with this anywaysAnd as required by board law:>have you tried playing something other than dndGod I hate secondaries
>>96498316>>96498555I mean, it's obviously designed to balance the slot limit gimmick DND loves.When you have less than one spell per encounter a day, the one time you cast has to be really strong. Except that's too strong to let you keep once you have more than two spell slots to rub together. So it nerfs itself just in time to have other spells to rely on.
>>96497732Large AoE and daze? Yeah that's decent for an encounter power and does some chip damage on top. Much less broken than "Save or be removed from the entire fight"
>>96498677> Spells aren't so disturbingly powerful that you have to take on 10 tons of restrictions to use them> Get to spam spells all day > Don't have to use a crossbow and feel like a loser as your backup option> Don't have to bank everything on a single spell and hope the DM isn't reading the rules to see how shitty the spell actually is> Abilities are allowed to JUST WORK from level 1 > And you still get stronger over timeI genuinely don't get why people hated 4E's changes so much. Being a caster in 3.5 is a special kind of pain in the ass and suffering, and it's justified with spells that take 1000000 gold and XP to cast and probably won't work anyway.
>>96498694>Get to spam spells all day>Don't have to use a crossbow and feel like a loser as your backup optionThis is a bad thing, you have shit taste, and this is why modern fantasy sucks.Magic stops being magical when it's cheap and easy to use that anyone who can has no reason to ever not use it for everything.Imagine if when Thulsa Doom said "flesh is stronger than steel" some nerd just came in and started slinging firebolts all over the place making flesh and steel utterly impotent.
>>96497726Too bad I took the Eschew Materials feat at level 1.
>>96498715> A 1d8 or 1d10 attack once per round from a light or heavy crossbow...>....Is replaced by a 1d8 spell once per round.Oh no! Magic has gotten too powerful! It's insane! Our delicate flesh cannot withstand this withering volley of spells that are only as strong as someone trained in marksmanship! Aieee! My riddle of steel! AIEEEE!
>>96498753missed the point retard> A 1d8 or 1d10 attack once per round from a light or heavy crossbow...>....Is replaced by a 1d8 spell once per round.you've just made the magical mundaneGandalf used a sword when he needed to kill something, not sling around technicolor special effects.
>>96498782Wow it's almost like cantrips are intended to be mundane and demonstrate the casual fantasy nature of the D&D world.Gandalf wasn't a wizard, he was an angel LARPing as a wizard.
>>96498782>Gandalf used a sword when he needed to kill something, not sling around technicolor special effects.This is not how wizards have been balanced in DND, anon. You are living in your daydream and pretending it's reality. You want to play a GISH. Not a wizard. Just play a cleric or druid. They were always tank mages. Maybe a hexblade if you want to be mediocre instead.
>>96498799I don't think he knows what he means by 'made the magical mundane' anyway.
>>96498840holy fuck you are retarded.anon literally just said exactly what I was saying except he disagreed thinking it was a good thing not a bad thing then you come along and say "I don't think he knows what he means" when clearly both of us had an understanding of what I meant.
>>96498782>>96498822You are both retarded. Gandalf is not a D&D wizard. Just because they're both called wizard, that doesn't mean they work the same across completely different settings.D&D was not originally high / heroic fantasy.
>>96498846> Have a basic, repeatable, tiny magic only good for basic self defense>If you want anything more, you have to focus and expend masses of magical reserve to do it>Acting in any significant way thus requires prep and real considerationNo, anon, I don't think you know what you mean. I don't think he did either. What DO you think it means? Particularly because the example they use is GANDALF. Who was a DMPC and a Tank-Mage-DPS. This comparison is a joke, right? Further, let me point out what actually is happening back in an edition like 3.5. While your wizard is told to just use a crossbow once a round for 1d8 flat if they don't like having limits on basic attack magic, the fighter is attacking four times a round for 1d12+15 each attack. Ho ho, I'll just use one of those amazing spells all those ancient stories I heard us- ACK. I don't want to spend xp to cast this, and this needs 10 pounds of every kind of rare gem that costs my wealth per level. ACK, what do you mean this one won't work even half the time due to DCs? /tg/ told me being a wizard is a special and unique experience. I guess I'll just shoot some magic missiles- oh that barely ticked the enemy. FUCK. I wish my DM didn't know what the rules were like theirs did! What is actually going on here? Are you mad you are told Gandalf is an inappropriate expectation? Or do you want to live in that world you were lied about where magic is SO RARE AND SPESHUL that you literally cast one spell and solve the encounter?
>>96498885>What DO you think it means?It means magic should have narrative weight, not be banal and trite. God forbid Batman uses a tool that isn't bat themed. That is your mindset. You see how weird that is?>Particularly because the example they use is GANDALF. Who was a DMPC and a Tank-Mage-DPS. This comparison is a joke, right?Lay off the memes, you dip.>that you literally cast one spell and solve the encounter?Yes. Magic should be impactful.
>>964988853.5 is incredibly easy to build yourself in a way that requires no preparation or consideration whatsoever, while avoiding costly components. And the best stuff beyond that still wins even when you pass the DC.Granted, that's not quite so easy for Wizard who is more dependent on items and optimizing the spellbook. It's Druids and Clerics who rule 3.5 and can do anything they want.
>>96498919>It means magic should have narrative weightIn which case theming an entire core character around the use of magic is not viable from a system design standpoint. What you want is to remove spellcasters entirely, and have magic relegated to a system like D&D 4e or PF2e's Ritual system. I'd be happy with that, personally, but if magic is impactful and has genuine weight to it, you can't have wizards as a core expected player option.
>>96498919>It means magic should have narrative weight, not be banal and trite.This is DnD. Not LOTR. You don't get to be a DMPC. You don't get to be a tank mage. You don't even get to be Elminster. Your magic is already banal and trite. The game does not revolve around you nor should it. If you want that, get your DM to run a solo campaign and throw level one encounters at you while you play at level fifteen at lowest. > Yes. Magic should be impactful.And there it is. That is not how it works. It is never how it worked unless at tables ignoring the rules or abusing new DMs. No, you don't get to be the one spell wonder and wipe your ass with the game. There's at least two other people there for the usual number of players, and I just know you think they exist only to serve you.People like you are why we got 4E in the first place. Literally people like you. 3.5 was put down like a rabid dog for a reason. Or shit. Just go write a novel. I'm sure your amazing and incredible mind will vault you to the status as the next Tolkien and prove me wrong. I'll eat my post if it happens. I'll wait right here for you to get back to me on that. I'm sure your version of things won't come out boring and trite instead.
>>96497685Correct, I have long term damage from being targeted by color sprays during my formative levels.Please be nicer to me.
>>96498930I really wish more anons understood this. It's such a ridiculous expectation for them to be the center of the entire game world and have mechanics revolve around their one special moment they want. >>96498928Yes, but anon wants the old stories (which were lies in the first place) where the wizard strut around casting one game ending spell and laughed at the martials and- Well you should understand my objection by now. You can make decent non pain in the ass wizards, but you're not going to be Gandalf the White either. How utterly ridiculous.And yes, the real ones realize Clerics and Druids were the default GISHES above even wizards. Which is why I told him just to play those instead if he wants it so bad. That he won't is why I know he just wants to literally be Gandalf.
>>96498930>but if magic is impactful and has genuine weight to it, you can't have wizards as a core expected player option.It is viable, itself D&D did it for decades>>96498933>This is DnD.See above>No, you don't get to be the one spell wonder and wipe your ass with the gameYou're so useless because you have to use a boomerang instead of a batarang boohoo. You're so useless because you have to use a car like everyone else is instead of your batmobile. You're spider-man, you can't just tie someone up with a rope you HAVE to use a web to do the same thing or you're entirely useless!>People like you are why we got 4E in the first place.If anything 4e makes the problem worse with the at-will/encounter/daily system
>>96498232Well you should be. It's not hard either, unless you're a zoomer trash. It's the exact same system for ranged weapons, they should have a cost, that's why you buy arrows.>Hurr, it's too hard to keep track of arrowsYou might be clinically retarded. You should get that checked.
>>96498955>It is viable, itself D&D did it for decadesNo, it didn't.
>>96498969>D&D before WotC didn't existlol
>>96498955>If anything 4e makes the problem worse with the at-will/encounter/daily systemThis is just you manipulating the argument. Or you didn't understand it in the first place. One of the things that pissed people off is exactly removing the ability to one hit wonder encounters and making other classes as capable as wizards in their own way. Again, anon, do you even know what you mean when you insist giving people a regular attack on top of existing spell slots makes magic mundane? From here, all I can see is you interpret the system on the most simple basis possible.>I cast more than one spell in a session>Thus magic is too mundane now for meIs this wrong? Please enlighten us.
>>96498983It did, and it still didn't work that way.
>>96498988>I cast more than one spell in a session>Thus magic is too mundane now for meThat's not what I mean.As a general rule of thumb, any time you use magic for something that could have been done without magic then you've made magic too common.Exceptions include but not limited to:-time. saving time when the mundane way would take enough time cause consequences with similar narrative weight-scale-advanced technology. magic letting man fly is ok.-magic costs a resource>>96498992you're wrong. a single level 1 sleep spell can be the difference between a TPK and no lost resources other than the spell slot
>>96499021>you're wrong. a single level 1 sleep spell can be the difference between a TPK and no lost resources other than the spell slotOkay, I start to see where you are coming from.You want a game to exist at no more than about level 3. Because past that, your statement here gets more and more wrong. It's not that I don't get what you want. You want your job to be waiting around for the right moment to cast your one enchantment then get a pat on the back for solving the combat for everyone else. Those easy solves are low level only to compensate you for having no spell slots. Life only gets harder and more difficult from there. You're also going to start filling up your lower slots with blast spells because there's simply not much else to do with them anymore but that while you wait for an excuse to do something more substantial. At which point, we're throwing around fire willy nilly while Thulsa Doom cries anyway.> As a general rule of thumb, any time you use magic for something that could have been done without magic then you've made magic too common.This is just asking for magic to be removed in the first place. Again, you use descriptions you yourself do not understand. You've not thought this through enough. >>96498930 This anon was right.
>>96499075>This is just asking for magic to be removed in the first place.I literally just gave a spell in the very post you're replying to that runs contrary to this statement.>You want a game to exist at no more than about level 3. Because past that, your statement here gets more and more wrong.Depends on the edition. Also, I wrote -costs a resource- as an exception you moron. So having a lot of blasty spells is fine. It's using costless magic because you think you're magicman and so if you're not using magic you're as useless as batman not using a bat themed tool is what I take exception to.
>>96499097>I literally just gave a spell in the very post you're replying to that runs contrary to this statement.You don't get to claim that when the issue with your example should be plain to anyone who's played the game past the earliest possible levels.>It's using costless magic because you think you're magicman and so if you're not using magic you're as useless as batman not using a bat themed tool is what I take exception to.At least you finally explained what your real issue with this is rather than using the same descriptor to explain your original descriptor. I think I know what you actually want, and it just comes off as you being pissy about it. Since an objection on this basis makes no sense. At least not with this example. If Batman suddenly used shuriken instead of batarangs, your argument falls apart and Batman is unchanged. I think if you could actually articulate what you were trying to put together, without relying on poor attempts to reference media you don't understand, you'd suddenly see the same issue with it the rest of us do.
>>96499152>If Batman suddenly used shuriken instead of batarangs, your argument falls apart and Batman is unchanged.But he does not. And it -would- change things.And, you are complaining that batman (magicman) is using shurikens (crossbow) instead of batarangs ( cantrips ) Why? Because you wouldn't be batman ( magicman) anymore if you did. And I'm saying it's stupid that you're treating magic like capeshit thematic superpowers.Somehow you're still missing the point.
>>96499178>But he does not. And it -would- change things.Explain how then.
>>96499178OH, and stop acting like the metaphor you brought up is my metaphor. You have this weird habit of forcing your own argument on to your opponent in this weird form of straw manning them in to submission.
>>96499181>Explain how then.It reduces magic to a mere palette swap or reskin of something mundane.If it didn't make a difference, then why does it make you upset to use a crossbow instead of having a cantrip?
>>96499202No, see, you're changing the argument. I asked you to explain why a batarang versus a shuriken changes things. You keep making terrible metaphors that you then avoid explaining and leap levels of reasoning to something else. It makes you come off as having this very weird view of media and abusing it to force your point.>If it didn't make a difference, then why does it make you upset to use a crossbow instead of having a cantrip?This is a valid question and actually getting us somewhere. A crossbow is something anyone can use. It's a peasant conscript weapon. It's not inherent to the individual either. It's also something that can simply be taken away as it is just any other object. And whoever takes it can use it without having to think about it. It's just a crossbow. Having [GENERIC MAGIC BOLT] is something solely experienced by the mage. Only the mage can do it. It may be the most ho-hum version of something a mage can do, but it is still only the realm of those in on the secrets of magic. The mark of a specific kind of person. Even if they are only a hedgemage. It may be represented as only a 1d8 damage die and probably a reflex save, but this is d20. 99.9999% of stuff boils down to similar. That I can only tell people to get over it. I will be clear here, though. In terms of having a reserve power you can fall back on when you can't spend materials or slots, we could do much better than an at will 1d8+whatever a round. We REALLY can do much better, and it wouldn't even be hard to do. I even have something in mind. I get why things ended up the way they did, but we could do MUCH better to solve the same issue.
>>96499244>I will be clear here, though. In terms of having a reserve power you can fall back on when you can't spend materials or slots, we could do much better than an at will 1d8+whatever a round. We REALLY can do much better, and it wouldn't even be hard to do. I even have something in mind. I get why things ended up the way they did, but we could do MUCH better to solve the same issue.I'll go ahead and put a rough up to put my money where my mouth is.Rather than boring at will generic bolts and cantrips you can use all day long, we walk back to more proper 3.5 and institute a concept of reserve feats. So long as you actually know or have memorized a certain effect, you can channel in to an attack that doesn't spent the spell. With some catches. Possibly this is your entire turn doing this. Or maybe two turns (with the caveat that it MUST be worth the damage if it takes multiple turns). Possibly make it a very small placeable aoe to incentivize tactics on the team (three targets all getting plinked suddenly turns in to a nice chunk of damage versus 1 and still possibly reduced time to kill by a turn for others). Probably make it interruptible as well. Though, naturally, there should be some mechanism to scale this over time with your natural power. Things get way too much HP over time to do otherwise. And key it to specific types. If you pick fire(for better damage versus other options), it's always going to be fire. Or you need to pick another feat to get a second reserve. Which means it's not your all encompassing fall back. If something is resistant to fire or casts resists against it, you need another plan. Tough shit. And since it takes a feat, this is a much more precious resource for wizards in an edition like 3.5. I mean, it's workshoppable. We want something with more catches and interaction than just taking out your .22 pistol and shooting a guy when you have no spells. THAT objection I understand.
>>96498782They hated him because he told the truth.jpg
>>96499244>It's a peasant conscript weaponIf mundane tools are beneath you as a level 1 character or the narrative equivalent, you've made magic too trite or overpowered.That kind conceit should be reserved for powerful characters, not literally every fucking character of the archetype.Batman can't drink out of a regular mug, he batdrinks from his batmug batcoffee, which he brewed from his batcoffeemachine using only the best batbeans imported from batland.I'm being absurd to make a point so obvious surely you can't not understand.
>>96498955>itself D&D did it for decadesDid it? I don't see what "narrative weight" the wizard unfailingly preparing a large batch of spells to be expended every day like mundane ammunition has.
>>96499313Anon, the game not existing only at level 1 IS exactly the problem. You're just being manipulative again.> I'm being absurd to make a point so obvious surely you can't not understand.No, you're ignoring the point and being manipulative. Besides that, have you only ever seen the Adam West version of Batman? Granted it was kino in it's own way, but I'm not going to give in to another metaphor that means nothing. You keep thinking it's like some silver bullet for debate, and it isn't.
>>96499333Anon, don't. He'll just quote the weird batmug thing at you too.
>>96499333the preparing is what gives it the narrative weightthat he can't use a spell to solve every problem and still has to ration spells out also contributes to the narrative weight>b-but what about muh 5 minute adventuring dayyou're not playing the game as intended anyways>>96499335You contradict yourself. If you have so many spells at a high level that it doesn't matter, then why do you need a cantrip that does d8 damage so you don't have to lower yourself to use a mundane weapon to begin with?
>>96499348You have a very, very strange definition of narrative weight.If you're doing something every single day without fail, I don't see what narrative weight that can have anymore. It has become mundane and expected. There's no narrative weight to that.
>>96499348So there's narrative weight to preparing and rationing out spells, but no narrative weight to preparing and rationing out encounter powers and daily powers?
>>96499348>then why do you need a cantrip that does d8 damage so you don't have to lower yourself to use a mundane weapon to begin with?Precisely to discourage> b-but what about muh 5 minute adventuring dayas a default behavior because the system was too reliant on magic users in the first place. Stretching things out and allowing space for more niche or utility spells is healthy as opposed to the 'walking around' loadout that becomes inevitable. As DnD is super guilty of most options simply being trash in the grand scheme. Magic having such a slow turn around is what encourages these unwanted behaviors. It encourages them VERY hard too. It also mitigates some niche issues with DMs not realizing how reliant on spells as loot drops and other gimmies wizards are and other similar issues 3.5 had. It's actually pretty easy to ruin your wizard's time. It's more than HP that is fragile. Probably why a lot of cheating occurs too. There's a lot of potential benefits. But again, there are potentially better alternate solutions to the same thing? Leaning in to how people want to play, rather than patching it, may be better. Dark and Darker proves having fewer slots that are easy to recover (but only between fights) is a workable idea. Freeing you from the 5-minute day while also showing the wizard that running out of slots mid fight will probably end them. And swapping to utility loadouts easier but still risky (ambushes or other unexpected fights. it just needs to be mechanically exploitable). We could also limit a lot of stuff to being ritual only to limit certain things that would interact badly with this system. DnD's past has always been the worst way to handle it, and I'll agree just at will powers is not neccessarily the most elegant or interesting solution. Yet that still doesn't remove DND handles this terribly.
>>96498570>>96498959Spell components are not used at most tables because they are a poorly designed system that actively encourages disengagement with it from literally everyone at the table. NO ONE benefits from choosing to remember that spell components exist, not even the GM. In 20 years of playing rpgs, I have never met anyone IRL that has ever tracked components that were not measured in thousands of gold like diamonds. No one has the fucking time to give a fuck about how many balls of lint and pinches of bat shit the wizard has in his inventory. Its a bad limiting system, because they say 'you need this' but its entirely non-interactive. NONE of the shit that you use as spell components is stuff that you find as treasure, so the only way to get it is to go out of your way to acquire it in town or whatever. Which means that the GM either has to stock every town general store with a bunch of weird bullshit or they have to make a quest out of restocking the wizard's basic supplies. Imagine a world where people stick to this, and every 3-4 sessions the party has to drop everything and go back to the bat cave so the wizard can restock on bat shit for their fireball spells. No one else benefits from this, just the wizard who considers it essential and won't do anything else until he has re-armed.Oh, the plot has the villian fleeing to the elf kingdoms in the north? Ooooh, sorry. I can't go with you guys. That would take me too far away from the bat shit caves, I wouldn't be able to restock for my spells. Lets find something else to do that is within comfortable travel distance from this vital resource I have to build all of my decisions around.There are good ways to do spell component type restrictions, but DnD isn't it. Its so cumbersome that people just choose to ignore it whenever possible. Which the game itself even gives you multiple ways to do, because even DnD thinks this bullshit is tedious and best ignored.
>>96498782>you've just made the magical mundaneEvery single magic system in D&D has made the magical mundane.
>>96499411I think calling it non interactable is the single best way to point out what is truly wrong here. It's just a chore that doesn't add a layer of interaction at all. It's just BORING, but it's too vital not to do cause certain spells are literally balanced around taxing your wizard's wealth by level to use. Which creates a domino effect on other mechanics. It's just horrible. I'd rather have spells balanced around not having components if I had to pick my poison.I'll also agree it makes world building weird as shit. So you want wizards to be weird and esoteric and probably rare. Every 3rd person shouldn't be a wizard. That does really change the tone of things, but we also need the wizard to have some way to stock up on everything they need in every single town? No matter how small? I guess there is an apothecary. Making potions could be something everyone can do, but that changes the actual structure of DnD again. Proving it's just.. wrong at it's outset. I want magic to be more impactful than pulling out your 9mm too, but there has to be a better way.
>>96499348A level 5 wizard has enough slots to cast a spell every single fight assuming you're using a frankly ridiculous rate of 8 encounters a day.If you're not, a level 5 wizard will be able to cast a spell every single round in nearly every single D&D edition.
>>96499411>Its a bad limiting system, because they say 'you need this' but its entirely non-interactive.That isn't even true. You have to have reagents on had. Arrows exist.>NONE of the shit that you use as spell components is stuff that you find as treasureSo?>Imagine a world where people stick to this, and every 3-4 sessions the party has to drop everything and go back to the bat cave so the wizard can restock on bat shit for their fireball spells.That's like saying the ranger needs to craft her own arrows. Imagine simply buying reagents when you're in town, like a normal human being. Besides, reagent limitations can actually be cool because they limit the tools you have. I find it funny that you call the system "non-interactive" while ignoring this entirely.>No one else benefits from this>No one else benefits from the wizard being able to cast his spellsThey benefit more from wizard reagents than they would from ranger arrows.>>96499438>doesn't add a layer of interaction at all. It's just BORINGAmmunition is a part of the system. It's fine if you don't want to track ammunition, but then you also can't complain when not tracking ammunition means your shit is overpowered. There's a reason you buy your arrows: range is an advantage, and deciding when to use your arrows is a part of decision making a lot of people like, and it's not about "realism", it's about a survival and resource management perspective. So it does objectively add a layer of interaction, if you actually bother to track it. If you ignore it, then obviously it won't. Not sure what's confusing about that.Also, doesn't D&D pretty much handwave smaller reagents away with "if you have your reagent pouch, assume you have the reagents you need"?
>>96499476The smaller reagents aren't the issue anyway. It just makes the lore ridiculous and is noninteractive still. Used to be, giving wizards eschew materials for free was very common. Everyone knew how bad this system was then. Not sure why someone is going around now saying it isn't. It is just bad.
And to the fags claiming a "5 minute adventuring day" is "playing it wrong", have you ever done any hex-crawling campaign? You know the classic "old-school" style that is theoretically supported since the "based" old editions?Let me remind you that in that style of play, you are NOT having 8 encounters per day, you are having 1 or 2 at most. Meaning any wizard will be shitting out spells on every round of every fight, plus using utility spells to solve every problem he can. >Oh, a bridge has fallen? Well we could do the very dangerous climb while over-encumbered with treasure, take the long path around and spend two more days, or I can just switch spells and tomorrow we'll all fly over it! Now excuse me while I cast alarm to make sure we're not ambushed during the night.How the fuck is that "giving magic narrative weight" you nostalgia-blinded retard?
>>96499486It's not, you just don't like it. Resources aren't inherently bad, it depends on your expectations. Nobody complains about tracking ammo on a survival horror game. Nobody complains about tracking ammo and reagents on a dungeon crawler where resources matter (you know, the origin of D&D).
>>96499487>You know the classic "old-school" style that is theoretically supported since the "based" old editions?Old school is dungeoncrawl, not hex crawl. Between random encounters and ( intended, anyways) getting lost in the dungeon there is no 5 minute adventuring day.If anything, old school style play is -too- harsh on low level spellcasters imo. Like "cast sleep to save the party from a tpk only to tpk later because you don't have any spells anymore and everyone got unlucky" harsh.
>>96499411I think it's there for the sake of the RP, rather than mechanical stuff. Something to be acknowledged if it's brought up, but not required for the gameplay. My DM did handwavey >"Whenever we go back to town, you restock on whatever regents you need. Since they're so cheap, I don't need to track your cost."I hear some people saying >"What about the high-end spells requiring diamonds and such?"You're usually at the end game anyway and can pull off ridiculous shit to generate a cash flow to get the super components if you need them. That or the caster in question works something out with the DM to conjure or otherwise obtain the items without spilling a fortune of gold on the special components.>>96499450I tried to save my slotted spells for when I really needed them. I always cast the bonfire cantrip because I like starting fires everywhere.>>96499476>Also, doesn't D&D pretty much handwave smaller reagents away with "if you have your reagent pouch, assume you have the reagents you need"?HOL' UP, so are you saying we should do a whole reagent gathering/buying session at town? Treat them like spell slots where they auto-regen every so often? When you're homebrewing shit, you can do any number of handwavey mechanics so the answer doesn't matter. I think the main issue is that people don't want to turn the game into more of a spreadsheet manager than it already is.
>>96499487Well said. Even if you try as many encounters per day as projected by the system, that shit is EXHAUSTING mentally. Most of your time is probably more in RP moments or noncombat focused and doing weird shit. If people want a string of combats, we'll have to go back to the game's wargame roots. Which then reduces your character to a very brief set of nonpersonalized stats. 40k mini tier. That is your entire character. That one mini's worth of stats is your whole character. Anything else is bullshited on the spot or just RP. That's not me trying to be derisive. It works. If that's what people want, it works. Though the direction of history proves that is not what people want. I suggest just leaning in to the cadence of things myself. Again, a very small set of resource per encounter, but recovering them OUT OF COMBAT is simple. Though also making a ton of shit just plain rituals. Not everything needs to be a slotted spell. That was one of the few things 4E did that was legitimately a straight upgrade all around. Lots of stuff should just be a ritual.
>>96498715Depends how rare you make wizards mate. In my campaign our elf wizard played uo the rare mystic angle and I believe he met a total of two other NPC magic users, one of whom was retired.
>>96499476For spell components to be equivalent to arrows, anon, you would need need to eliminate the concept of arrows entirely and replace them with 200+ unique subsets of ammunition with no crossover. Arrows work because they are universal in application, are a mundane items that every community needs, and not difficult to make yourself in a pinch with commonly available materials. You do not have arrows that only work on wednesdays, arrows that only work if you are at least 3 inches taller than the target, arrows that must be kept refridgerated or they spoil in a matter of hours, etc. Keeping track of THOSE kinds of arrows would represent an absurd book keeping addition, and they range from either minorly useful to completely worthless such that the idea that most communities would just have them on hand is insane. You are right in the general sense that resource limitations can create interesting moments and decisions in gameplay, but spell components as DnD implements them is not how you do that. To think that it is how you do that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept. I'll propose an alternative structure as an example, but that will take a second post due to length. One moment.
>>96499538>Old school is dungeoncrawl, not hex crawl.Go read the Expert rules right now you fake old-school gamer.
>>96499543>I think it's there for the sake of the RPNot that guy, but I can see this easy. It was never meant to be serious. Just like yeah if you want to lean in to the silly jokes some of the reagents tell or just want some extra flavor for what you are doing, you can do that.> Schmedrick The Magician's hand disappears in to his robe as the barbarian chases him down.> When his hand is seen again, it's holding a small collection of multicolored dust> He blows on this in the barbarian's direction!> The dust turns in to a whirlwind of colors and lights that assaults the barbarian's senses and very mind!In that way, it can kind of help you to be extra. And one thing magic needs is being extra. Even when you have only daily slots and no cantrips and all that, it's easy to make things a bit mundane?
>>96499558>For spell components to be equivalent to arrows, anon, you would need need to eliminate the concept of arrows entirely and replace them with 200+ unique subsets of ammunition with no crossover.Completely missing the point. The different reagents are part of the wizard mechanically. They aren't mechanically equivalent to arrows, they're just another resource, and you already track resources. Reagents allow you to have much more powerful spells if done right, and can make magic usage much more interesting. Now, you could argue that reagents + vancian magic is too much, and I'd maybe agree there, but reagents themselves aren't inherently bad, even when there are more than a few, and even when you have to track them.Maybe we're talking past each other. I'm not defending D&D reagents (again, I don't even think D&D has given reagents much attention ever, every time I've read about them it just sounded half baked), I just completely reject the idea that they are inherently bad, when they are often times the best part about being a caster. The "bat poop" thing was an obvious slight at the concept as a whole, and it's a dumb argument.
>>96499558Imagine, instead, a much more simple and straightforward system that replaces spell components with 'magical essences'. The wizard can extract magic essences from dead monsters, with different monsters have specific magical essences that can be extracted from them based on their natural abilities or powers. Places of magical influence can also be tapped into for magical essences, or in a real pinch you can drain a magic item for the essence used to create it in the first place. All of those sources of magical essences that I just listed? Are things that an adventuring wizard will ALREADY BE INTERACTING WITH. They are already going to be fighting monsters, going to cool magic places, and finding magic items. This exists within the core gameplay loop of the DnD experience. But it still creates a meaningful resource management, because it means picking spells that can make good use of a wide range of essences. If you are fighting ice monsters in the magical frozen wastes, then you're going to be up to your ass in Cold essence, but you're not going to be able to find more fire essence easily for the fireball spells that these ice monsters are weak to. You have to find something useful you can do with the abundant Cold essence you are farming to excess right now, and if you didn't pick a single spell fueled by cold essence thats going to be a bad time. It means you either stock up on fire essence by fighting a dragon ahead of time, or visiting a volcano or something, or you might be forced to make the decision to eat a magic item you didn't want to for fuel for your spells. These are meaningful decisions, because even if you decide to go on a resource run that is still EXCITING. Fighting a dragon for the magical essence still means that the party gets to fight a dragon, have a cool fight, and get xp and loot as a result. Visiting the bat shit caves so the wizard can go home with a stinky barrel of bat shit isn't inherently interesting or fun for anyone
>>96499582I wouldn't say the X part doesn't count, but domain management and domain level play is clearly an alternate game mode, not he main game mode.It's called Dungeons & Dragons not Dungeons & Domains.
>>96499598>Imagine, instead, a much more simple and straightforward system that replaces spell components with 'magical essences'. The wizard can extract magic essences from dead monsters, with different monsters have specific magical essences that can be extracted from them based on their natural abilities or powers. Places of magical influence can also be tapped into for magical essences, or in a real pinch you can drain a magic item for the essence used to create it in the first place. I'm pretty sure they do that in Malifaux/Through the Breach with Soulstones. Which are also worth a shitton of money since they let people cast magic on Earth. Meaning that most of the people who use them are either wealthy individuals that have their own secret stash, working for an organization that can afford to buy/stash them away in bulk like the dictatorial Guild or the anarchistic Arcanists, or serial killers who go around "refueling" them the old fashioned way like the Resurrectionists or other freaky individuals who are likely empowered by the setting's equivalent of Great Old Ones.
>>96499600The X part is where you're meant to go after the first 3 levels, and that is hexcrawling/wilderness adventures, where you're likely going to find 1 encounter a day, two at most.That is part of old-school roleplaying.Domain is indeed later but wilderness adventures have been a thing for every D&D edition beyond the very first, maybe, and I only add this maybe because I haven't read the original D&D booklet.
>>96499626bro there are 7 dungeon levels at leastBut to be honest I never got a party past Basic when I was running B/X.
>>96499596> The "bat poop" thing was an obvious slight at the concept as a whole, and it's a dumb argument.Anon, the fireball spell in dnd 3.5 literally has "Material Component: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur." If you care about spell components, a constant supply of bat shit is unironically essential to the average wizard. Fireball is the iconic wizard combat spell, after all. So a wizard that is using Fireball every day is going to constantly need to re-up their bat shit supply. Bat shit isn't something that is going to commonly be sold in stores, both because non-wizards have no use for it and because *most places don't have conveniently located bat caves to harvest shit from in the first place*. Therefore, unless there is a thriving trade supplying bat shit across the realm (which, again, most places would at best be using it as a very expensive fertilizer) there is actually only a fairly narrow range of places where it is even POSSIBLE for the wizard to acquire bat shit for their spells. Meaning that a wizard with the fireball spell has to base their decisions around access to bat shit.
>>96499648>7The basic booklet only has the first 3 levels. Expert is the one with the rest of the levels up to 14.Domain play is level 9.So from levels 3 to 8 you're meant to be going on wilderness adventures as you search for dungeons farther and farther away from the town. And that means that during those days, weeks or months of crawling through hexes, the wizard is shitting out spells on every encounter, thoroughly trivializing magic and completely removing any so called "narrative weight" that magic is "supposed to have".
>>96499655You mean the powerful spell is limited by unusual reagents that aren't always available?That's crazy man.
In one way, I think I get what the anon wants? Even if he can't explain it well.You kind of want to be more of a mystic, yeah? Not the man who raises his hand and >ZOOOLLLLTRAAAAAAAAKKK! I get it. Magic should do something weird when it's used. Not just be another way of killing someone but now with strobing lights and dubstep. This is probably fine for a villain or a story where fighting is very rare anyway, but for a game of DND this gets weird cadence of your day-to-day activity. So you want more of a mystic who solves weird issues with rare knowledge and esoteric skills. When you go to this, it's then fine to give them a decent measure of martial ability for walking around. Like a 3/4ths BAB class with a decent HD per level. Even if they can MAYBE buff themselves a bit, they don't get nukes or magic attacks as such. You wouldn't design a d4 low BAB class that can only pick locks, right? It's fine.But.. what does it actually do then? Mechanically. I get why things reduce to clear use combat abilities cause this is a deterministic system and with how game design works it kind of just ends up that way. So.. what does it do instead of that?There's having all sorts of rare knowledge. Fine for the archetype, but what's the magic? From here I keep just.. well it's basically a rogue but they do everything the rogue does with magic instead. Need to go unseen? Cast invisibility. Need to pick a lock? Weave an enchantment to open the lock on the spot. Searching for hidden things or dangers? Searching through the magic stream for whatever blah blah blah. Instead of rolling diplomacy, befuddle a man's mind with magic. It's just a rogue but doing rogue things with magic? We already have rogues who have skill points for every weird skill you could dream of. Or bards. Bards exist.
>>96499687I mean that the random encounter tables has dungeon levels labeled, and it goes up to level 8 ( of the dungeon ) which includes monsters which aren't strictly 7 HD monsters.I use OSE as a reference I assume in the original ( I don't have the pdf anymore ) Basic went up to dungeon level 3 while Expert is dungeon levels 4+ which is why I thought that expert was still mostly focused on dungeons with domain level a side thing.
>>96499717Then they aren't equivalent to arrows then. You keep wanting people to see things your way so bad, but all you're doing is tricking yourself into hypocrisy.
>>96499743The idea (which may or may not have actually happened) is that those dungeons with lots of levels were far away from towns and cities, so you'd spend days and days hexcrawling to find the legendary lost dungeon of XXX. Like it wasn't supposed to just be "we go to the dungeon" "you find yourselves looking at a big skull" with no travel time.You didn't stop going to dungeons, but dungeons were no longer something you could just go into directly from the basement under the inn.
>>96499717*BUZZZZZ*! Sorry anon, thats the wrong answer. You can't make the argument that the bat guano requirement is an inherent, intentional limiting factor based around the strength of fireball as a spell, because Lightning Bolt is the same level and the same damage, just a different damage type, and its material component is a "a bit of fur and some glass", both of which are cheap and trivially easy to acquire basically anywhere. Would you like to try a different argument?
>>96499718This is it. The dreaded Nekomancer.
>>96499755Seeing as I never said reagents were equivalent to arrows (whatever this means in your head), and that I've already stated the difference between the two, I'm good, thanks.>>96499787Glass is trivial to find in a medieval setting? Ok buddy.
>>96499794The nekoromancer is more dreaded, I think.
>>96499832We're probably dealing with people slipping in to other people's debates so it gets confusing, but the reply chain goes something like one anon disagreeing on>Uh, reagents are FINE? bows need arrows and you have to stock up on those! it's the same!Then someone pointing out it's not near the same thing. Then the counter to that is then>They aren't like arrows! It's missing the point!Then pointing out how much of a grind this makes having bat shit on hand then the reply to that is>You mean the powerful spell is limited by unusual reagents that aren't always available?>That's crazy man.Except the entire line of conversation started with using ammunition as a justification for reangents.If you aren't the same anon, you are still responsible for jumping into an existing debate and arguing something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than what is being discussed. You're rightfully being called out, and saying you aren't the same anon is meaningless to that.
>>96499832>Glass is trivial to find in a medieval settingIt is in D&D. What do you think all the potions you find on the random treasure tables of D&D B/X are stored?>Potions are usually found in small glass vials, similar to Holy Water.Holy water costs 25gp and it's something you can buy during character creation, and that price is not due to how expensive glass is.
>>96499794I was workshopping a cheese-based magic system where, instead of regular regents, all of my spells would be cheese-flavored versions of other spells. My favorite idea is a fondue fountain I can spawn. It'll create an unlimited flow of hot cheese as long as I can maintain concentration. The bowl beneath it will consume any unused cheese, but if you turn the fountain on its side, you can create a small cheese river. You could use it to flood an entire area with cheese. >how long would that cheese last?After it leaves the magical fondue spawning fountain/bowl containment, it will spoil in the same time as regular cheese.>how long does it last?Last for 30 minutes.This was part of a larger character I wanted to make that belonged to a cheese cult. A Ratman that speaks the common language poorly, with a Borat-style cluelessness to cultures outside his own.
>>96499886Adding to this: while *high quality glass* is tricky to make, simple glass is just heat and sand. Anyone with a bad of sand and a blacksmith in town can make some glass. It won't be GOOD glass, but it will be glass and thats all the spell needs.Technically, the spell components for "a bit of fur, and a peice of amber, crystal, or a glass rod". The glass rod can be manufactured, but the fact that there are two other alternatives for that part of the component makes it all the more likely that you can find at least one of them. The fur, of course, being a complete non-issue to acquire. And you only need to find some amber/crystal/glass ONCE and then you can keep re-using it!All of this as opposed to guano, which can only be sourced from specific locations that are limited by a specific form of wildlife that isn't actually super commonplace across different regions. Which you need to have a steady supply of because you will go through it fast.
>>96499864I pointed out tracking arrows was like tracking reagents in the sense that they were resource management. You have to have some special kind of autism if you equated that to mean >reagents = arrowsThe point was resource management for things that aren't automatically replenished during rests.The whole bat shit shit was just me pointing out how ridiculous the notion was. You could make the same argument with literally any resources, look:>Ah, we have to go on a month long campaign to some place in the wilderness? Sorry guys, I won't be able to buy arrows, so I can't really go. I know I know, UGH... I know... UGH...And like I said, I never defended D&D's brand of reagents, and I'm not sure how well they work. I understand that people were originally talking about D&D specifically, and that's my bad, but then some nigger went "Hurr, da wizard need to stay close to da bat cave???" and acting like that's some sort of 200IQ counter argument to magical reagents.>>96499886You're now arguing with me that you can't buy bat shit when there's clearly people selling magical things in towns. I also know for a fact D&D wizards aren't that rare.
>>96499981>You're now arguing with meI'm not, I don't even know what the argument is about. I'm disagreeing with the post I quoted that implied glass is rare. Glass, is, in fact, trivial to find in D&D.
>>96499718Shakugan no Shana makes a good example of role distribution in a high-magic setting>All "PCs" are pacted with a Goetian demon in the form of an object. They're taught some basic spells like setting up an anti-Muggle field, and have a general "flame" motif which translates into about half of them being able to throw basic firebolts.>Shana (pacted with Alastor) is a swordfighter who can wreath her sword in flames to increase its power/range, and later gets the ability to fly with Alastor's fiery wings. Her pact object is an amulet; her other gear consists of a high-quality sword (magic but with no particular special properties), a cloak that stores items, and a ring of fire resistance. Near the end she develops a new spell which lets her see through illusions, and upgrades her wing technique to let her manifest different parts of Alastor's giant fiery body.>Margery (pacted with Marchosias) is an expert on spell construction, and the only one capable of analysing and dispelling whatever weird poisons or city-scale magics the villains are using this week (though the other characters need to protect her while she works). Her pact object is a book, which can fly and carry her around while doing so. She can also hand her allies bookmarks with various effects like working as communicators or sensors or letting Muggles interact with magical things. She has very little combat skill, but compensates with brute force - transforming herself into a fire-breathing bear and then spamming Mirror Image.I guess you could say Margery's role is like a fantasy version of a hacker or a "tech superhero".
>>96499981>but then some nigger went "Hurr, da wizard need to stay close to da bat cave???" and acting like that's some sort of 200IQ counter argument to magical reagents.You realize that the bat poop thing is not specifically important, right? Its to highlight the tedium and pointlessness that would arise from focusing on resource acquisition of any of these ingredients that the wizard needs a constant supply of for their most common spells. You are encouraged to skip over it and handwave it away, which most people do in fact do. But this ALSO means that it cannot fulfill its role as a supposed limiting factor on casters. It is a bad mechanic, because it makes the game worse whether you enforce it or not, it just makes the game worse in different ways.
>>96497662Have you tried playing games at all?
>>96497679what are you talking about?
>>96500100Yes, it sucked because it was D&D.
>>96498316why would the goblin be rusty?
>>96498563Yes.
>>96498715Wrong.
>>96498782WE DON'T WANT TO BE GANDALF RETARD
>>96500110it's been a while since he's poopknifed anyone
>>96498919Swords should be impactful.
>>96500134He's not as spry as he used to be either.
>>96498955Yes, obviously. Why would you continue playing in game where the premise was "you get to be spider man", if as soon as the game started you were told actually you can't use any of your spider powers more than once per some arbitrary period? That would be fucking awful.
>>96499021Who decides what is too common? Certainly not you. You don't have any knowledge, authority, or taste.
>>96499202Cantrips are fun, crossbows are lame faggot shit. Why are you having trouble with this?
>>96499021>As a general rule of thumb, any time you use magic for something that could have been done without magic then you've made magic too common.Let's make sure you understand what you're saying here.Fireball: Could be replaced by throwing a stick of dynamite. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Scrying. Could be replaced by having your rogue infiltrate the location you want to observe and bringing back information. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Invisiblity. Could be replaced by proper usage of camouflage techniques. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Earthbind. Could be replaced by throwing a net. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Purify water. Could be replaced by a relatively crude filtration system. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Summon animal. Could be replaced by simply befriending and taming an animal and having them accompany you. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Comprehend languages. Could be replaced by ensuring your party has a good variety of language coverage. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.Alarm. Could be replaced by setting traps around your camp. Too common, too mundane. Remove it.
>>96500107Are you sure that's why?
>>96499021Nope, magic is just one of the six power sources. A power with the magic source functions just the same as the same power with any other source. And there's no limit on how often you can use a power unless you choose to apply the Charges, Recharge, Costly, or Harmful Cons.
>>96500292Yes
>>96500234Yep.
Nope.
>>96499021>>96500234This is why a bunch of Japanese media (where magic is "mahou") distinguish all those too-common spells as a separate thing called "majutsu" instead.Though every time this distinction comes up the translators will handle it differently.
>>96500349They're not too common.
>>96500349Tolkien's famous essay "On Fairy-Stories" gets at a similar idea, distinguishing between fantasy and fairytale. Magic is like a science in that it works within the bounds of the world, while Faerie is like an art in that it creates new worlds with their own logic.IIRC the old use of "mahou" (in contrast to other mystical words) had connotations of something dark/foreign; the modern usage shift relates to Japan opening up to Western literature, where translations got established like the very foreign-themed "Fairy Godmother" becoming "Mahou-Tsukai" (Mahou User).
thank god RPGs don't have to be shitty, dull, tedious tolkienslop.
>>96500102It's a 3840x2634 image.
>>96500195crossbows are rad af dude
>>96500522And?
>>96500526lmao lame
I don't want to use a crossbow, I want to use magic. That's why I wrote Wizard on my character sheet, and not Guy that shoots a crossbow and occasionally casts a spell sometimes but not too much because then the game might be fun.
>>96500619then why are you joining my sword and sorcery game anon
Why did you put a class in your game whose premise is guy that uses magic if you don't want players to use magic? Retard.
>>96500637He isn't, you're the one showing up at his high fantasy game and complaining that magic is too cool now.
>>96500637No one has ever shown up to any of your games.
>>96500710Don't project people's disdain for your bland style-less games onto me, thanks.
>>96500100> i swear my my extra chromosome that all games have this problem!
>>96500850Same to you loser LMAO
>>96497660I cannot even completely grasp how incompetent one must be as DM to have this spell be so problematic.It's a cone, so positioning fucks it up.It's mind affecting, so Undead, Vermin Oozes etc don't take itIt's a great tool but the type of retard that thinks this is an all-solving spell should play 4e D&D.
>>96500946congratulations for addressing exactly zero of OPs concerns about it lmao
>>96498753>Oh no! Magic has gotten too powerful!The issue isn't that its powerful (It's not), it's that its boring. Which was the real issue people had with 4e: Shit was boring brother.
>>96499886>What do you think all the potions you find on the random treasure tables of D&D B/X are stored?Ever heard of ceramics, retard? You play too many video games.
>>96501327>mfw this nigga never actually read the fucking handbookYou stupid retard, I directly quoted the D&D basic rulebook, they specifically say that the potion vials are made of glass.
>>96501350Nah, rule zero. They're made of Ceramics.
>>96501378Nah, rule zero, they're made of glass.
>>96499497>It depends on your expectations.No, it depends on the expectations that the game itself sets. >Nobody complains about tracking ammo on a survival horror game.In survival horror your resources are sparse, but you're guaranteed to eventually scavenge more.>Nobody complains about tracking ammo and reagents on a dungeon crawler where resources matterBecause you're expected to prepare all the resources you'll need ahead of time.Neither of these apply to the modern iterations of D&D. Reagents are too waried and specific to just be picked up on a trail, so you can't count on refilling your stocks naturally. Also most modern campaigns have no set ending or schedule to plan around, meaning there's no way to plan around what you'll need and how much of.
>>96501441Nope, you lose.
>>96501513You can really tell when someone is a no games when they think material components are something you should individually count the numbers of instead of just having them be a general item the wizard can lose.
We're complaining about something that doesn't really exist anymore. You can choose to totally trivialize most material components by using a focus, the only exception being ones that have a significant cost. If you don't, that's on you.
>>96501543woah calm down there shang tsunghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAwWPadFsOA
>>96499717One, Fireball isn't powerful in 3.5, it's mediocre at best, two, there are a pile of utter bullshit spells that have no components at all or components that are so easy to get that they're effectively infinite.Stop pretending spell component beancounting balances the game. It doesn't do shit.
imagine spending your level 3 spell slots on generic "do damage" spells in any edition. You all are wizards tearing apart reality, respect yourselves and your spell slots.
>>96499832A glass bottle of wine is 2 GP, well under even the smallest settlement's GP limit. Glass is trivial to find in D&D.
>>96501295Shooting a crossbow is more boring than throwing a firebolt.
>>96497660>closes my eyesWhat now?
>>96502068Zoomers frame of reference isn't Jack Vance's Dying Earth.Let alone the fact that the Dragon Riders didn't actually ride dragons.
>>96502088https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mc-XOd1fqU
>>96500522poorfag.
>>96501559You can really tell when someone is a no games when they think there's no difference between reagents that are abstracted with one GP costs and ones that aren't.
>>96502225t. Hasn't even read the PHB
>>96502259How many PHBs have you read in your life, anon? Be honest.
>>96502088weeeell, very bright lights can still blind you even with your eyes closedit's still doesn't factor that you can technically turn your head away from the caster (making it a reflex save) or that some creatures just have no eyes at all
>>965023009
>>96501295You have never played 4e.
>>96501295>BoringSays you?For me, it speaks of a hedgewizard that cannot rely on their magic to be there when it counts. Imagine if your fighter suddenly told you OOPS I didn't bring enough SWORD today, guys. My bad. I'll be using this cardboard cutout of a sword I made as a backup instead. Insane behavior.
>>96502322...PHB 2's don't count, anon! I said PHB! Not PHB X. Actually, I forgot they kept releasing those just with more numbers. If we include those, I'm not sure how many I've read myself.
>>96502388>>96502374>Says you?And everyone else kek.
>>96502374I suspect they havent? Particularly, these days the narrative against it that has survived is that they screwed up the math on HP and made combats take too long. Not that it was inherently boring. Though at release, the major complaints were just that the book was too clean looking and the rules too consistently written. Also aching wizards mad they can't cheat anymore.
>>96502408You've never read any.
>>96502429>samefaggingPathetic
>>96502423Who is this everyone else, anon? Are they in the room with us? One thing I love about this thread is how your side of the argument is presented with some alternate fix that accomplishes the same task (removal of reliance on lamer tools when simply burning slots is unwise) and is met with utter silence. You don't want to play. You don't want others to play either. Nor do you want the experience to be enjoyable for anyone. You just want to belly ache that people aren't playing how you want them to.
>>96502451>Who is this everyone else, anon?The entire TTRPG market. 4e failed, sucks that you're still salty about it.
>>96502388>it speaks of a hedgewizard that cannot rely on their magic to be there when it countsI think the real idea is that a magic user certainly can, it's just up to that wizard to rely on his own threat assessment and evaluation to know when it counts. Because when it does, it's big. Think about how one of the passages in Jack Vance's books on how a wizard is memorizing his spells. He only gets a few, but he's thinking about the challenges ahead to make them count.>Imagine if your fighter suddenly told you OOPS I didn't bring enough SWORD today, guys. My bad. I'll be using this cardboard cutout of a sword I made as a backup instead. Insane behavior.It used to be like that. The resources of fighters were their hitpoints. Can't go on missions unless the fighters of the group are in tip-top shape.
>>96502462And yet 5E exists and is being avoided as a topic in this conversation all thread long because it had to use the same inevitable solution. 3.5 is the one that went away. Even PF1 became PF2. Face it, anon. You've lost this argument almost 20 years ago. ...4E came out in 2008? Man where does the time go. Fuck this debate, then. How utterly pointless. Wail and try to change the past from the future all you like.
>>96499558It's even worse than that, because in some contexts, the 'arrows' are basically free and infinite. Tracking how much sand you have when the party is at a beach or a desert is pointless. Ice spells often just need a drop of water. You kill any animal and you have all of the bits of fur or bone that you'd need for an entire campaign. Meanwhile some other materials are shit like 'ashes of a specific type of plant" where getting any at all is a quest by itself.But it's not a balancing factor because there's no rhyme or reason to it. Some fantastic spells have extremely easy components, and some spells have none at all. Hold Person just needs you to have a nail or another straight bit of iron. Witch bolt requires a twig that has been struck by lightning.
>>96502485>And yet 5E existsAnd completely ditched 4e's entire basis of design and was wildly successful, because 4e sucked ass.>Wail and try to change the past from the future all you like.Kek, so screeches the 4rry, desperately pretending his favorite autistic grid game didn't fail horribly because nobody likes that boring garbage.
>>96498232I do when I take alchemy expertise and start going to stables and farms for manure, taking everyone's copper pieces, and ionizing salt water
>>96502515Interesting that every time you start screeching about "4rries" you conveniently ignore that the overwhelming majority of 5e players use "homebrew" that is basically just making the game into 4e. The most popular homebrew rulesets and custom player options are just 4e ports. 5e players want 4e.You'll ignore this of course. Just the same as every other time it gets brought up to you. Seethe.
>>96502462Forgotten Realms was shit and deserved to get butchered.
>>96502534>Fuck this debate then>Keeps screeching in defeatKek>the overwhelming majority of 5e players use "homebrew" that is basically just making the game into 4e.Oh my god is that how you freaks cope these days? Yeah buddy they're all secretly 4e fans and that edition just failed miserably cuz of uh... corpo sabotage, or smth.
>>96502465Look, it's not as if I don't know where you are coming from, but what you want isn't realistic. The kind of wizard you want only ever existed in it's own narrativist structures, and it really begins looking like some people only read fantasy books and haven't played DND itself. The reality of how game design works is much harsher. 3.5 gave way to 4 and that gave way to 5. 5E being as close to 4E as it can while pretending to be 3.5 as to not piss off old men who'd rather shit where they eat than let things change. If we go back to 2E, you still really don't have an argument. There's so much varied opposition in this thread against this precisely because people have actually played various editions, and the same issue crops up. Mechanically, the one spell a crisis dream doesn't work. Not in reality. Simply put, game balance won't allow it. You cannot be so important, or have abilities so powerful, that literally and I mean LITERALLY one spell is all you will ever need. There's other people there, and enemy design isn't so flat as to allow it either. The simple practical challenges and actual game structure don't support your version of DnD having ever existed...Unless you are that guy who clearly only plays at level 3 at most so SLEEP keeps being the only spell he ever needs. Which is also at a level where you have a single digit number of slots. Which.. you do you I guess?
>>96499598See this would actually be cool. It means that casters have to make the best use of what spells they know + what magic juice cocktails they have on hand. If you are not getting back the same essences after a fight as you spent doing it you won't be able to just rely on the same spells over and over. And more powerful spells can not just require rarer essences they can require more of the lower tier essences than a weaker spell does. This lets a caster do some big impressive magic that ends a fight all by itself, but with the understanding that there was a major resource investment that went into that and the caster might have been foolish to blow so many resources on one spell like that. As opposed to vancian casting, where casting a 7th level spell just costs you a 7th level spell slow, and "costing" is a general term to use considering you got that spell slot for free and you'll get it back again after a nap.
>>96502554>5E being as close to 4E as it canThis is next level delusion.
>>96502553>Oh my god is that how you freaks cope these days?Its been their latest cope for the last 2 or 3 years now (Took them a while to come up with it, they're slow). Somehow it still mystifies them that 5e went to the moon while 4e and all of its clones have been miserable failures.
>>964976685e is also shit
>>96502553There it is, just like I said, the classic "pretending you haven't been told this a million times already" trick. Very cool and funny, except you're literally the only retard on this entire board that uses the term "4rry" (no matter how many times you insist that actually EVERYONE hates 4e to the point of letting it live rent free in their heads and "4rry" is just common terminology, you always out yourself as the same fucking guy). Actually, since you're here and shitposting and screeching like a demented retard as always, I wanted to share a little experiment with you. I ran 4e for some 5e only players recently, except I simply referred to it all as "just a list of 5e homebrew". Did this with two groups. All eight players LOVED it, and two of the players in the first group referred to it as "the most fun they've ever had playing D&D". You'll find most 5e players are like this, actually. They hate 5e. Nobody wants to play it. They just tolerate it because it's what they know, and they're scared of change. Offer to play 3.5e for them, oh I don't want to learn a new system. Offer to run something different, oh I don't want to learn, you get the picture.I can guarantee you that there is not a single human being on this planet that legitimately and wholeheartedly believes that 5e is good.
>>96502553>cuz of uh... corpo sabotage, or smth.Well, yes, that is literally, inarguably what happened. What the fuck did you think Essentials was?
>>96502554>>96502465You know, I just realized it's also possible people like this have had their DM mollycoddle them their entire lives. If your DM lets you genuinely live a life where you cast one spell and walk away, they're not presenting appropriate challenges to your team. I mean it's fine and cool on the occasions the stars align. Where you can trick everything in to clumping up AND everything fails it's DC. I do love my mass control spells myself. They have a cool factor simply barfing fireball on things doesn't have. Granted, you go and explode, explosion chads. I don't get the appeal myself even though I appreciate the aggressively competent results.
>>96502596>he's still screeching in anger>thinks only one person on all of /tg/ is laughing at his retarded assLmaooo, your game sucks and nobody likes it except you.
>>96502553>pull PDF sales LITERALLY because of Touhoufag>In 2009>Put the game in the hands of someone who hates 4ESabotage by sheer retardation is still sabotage.
>>96502607>>96502596>>96502627(Samefag)>Well, yes, that is literally, inarguably what happenedAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHANo, sorry anon, it failed because it sucked cock. Invent more cope.
>>96502625>>96502632Pretending to be retarded is still being retarded.
>>96502632Still outperformed 3.5, then outperformed 3.5 again when PF2 outperformed PF1.
>>96502648>Fuck this debateAnon petulantly screamed before proceeding to get mad and keep the "debate" going, because god forbid he not embarrass himself further.
>>96502655Still failed miserably and performed so poorly pathfinder overtook it. Now do your predictable cope and seethe about how numbers aren't real.
>>96502565Infinite cantrips are just at will powers, anon. Slotted spells are just daily powers. You have abilities you can use at will, per encounter, or daily. They filed off the names and suddenly you can't tell the difference in functionality? Even fighter maneuvers still exist, you know? This just backs up my theory the major reason for hate against 4E was actually just it presenting the rules too clearly for the average 3.5 player who was used to the rules being explained in an inconsistent and muddy manner that requires constant from the hip rulings. 3.5 organized the same system in a more consistent and well labeled way and everyone loses their shit. Then 5E rubs off the labels and goes back to unclear rulings while keeping most of the moving parts and everyone thinks 4E is gone in it's entirety. What a joke.
>>96502669Pathfinder never overtook 4E.
>>96502670>He continues to post absolute delusions and thinks the games are basically the same because they roll diceWew lad. No wonder 4e failed, it attracted the dumbest autists imaginable. If my game was championed by people like you, its failure would be all but certain even if it were literally perfect.
>>96502681>He says for the 900th thread in a row, desperate to avoid talking about hard numbers4e failed.
>>96502670>>96502565Shit, that should be 4E reorganized the same system in to a more consistent and well labeled way. Not 3.5.Also, everything you do is still some variation of roll against some save and then roll 1d8+x with a tacked-on status like forced movement or a daze or something else. 3.5 and 5E do everything the same way but more sloppily and you praise it as a different paradigm.
>>96502700>He's still copingKek, give me an essay on how corporate sabotage did 4e in next retard, I love watching you faggots flail and desperately try to rewrite history as if it'll ever save your dead game.
>>96502515>>96502553>>96502585>>96502625>>96502632>>96502658>>96502669>>96502684>>96502696>>96502710Loud obnoxious autistic screeching until everyone else gets sick of your shit and leaves the thread for somewhere they can have a civil discussion doesn't count as you winning an argument, I'm sorry.
>>96502655>Still outperformed 3.5Why has 4e always been the least popular edition in VTT statistics?https://blog.roll20.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf
>>96502721>only mentions roll20 which literally never had robust 4e integration
>>96502718Samefag some more my guy, I'm sure it'll make people think there's more than one retard who seethes about 4e's failure.Oh wait no it won't, just like it won't undo the failure of the least successful edition of D&D.
>>96502554I play Ad&d and I haven't looked into newer editions too much.>Mechanically, the one spell a crisis dream doesn't work.You're right actually. You need a few spells. IF your GM is actually using the treasure tables as written, the Magic Man usually has a few contingencies if the need arises by 2 level and onwards. And well, that's the catch. They just gotta get there.>>96502610>If your DM lets you genuinely live a life where you cast one spell and walk away, they're not presenting appropriate challenges to your team.What has happened once before in the game I played is that our magic friend tries to use a multi-segmented magic spell to deal with a combat once. Leaving 2 other friends, my retainer, and me to protect his ass. I almost lost my character in those 2 turns.
>>96502728Roll20 has been the dominant VTT for a while, 4e's always been abysmally unpopular. People just... Well, they don't like it at all, it seems.
4efags have severe little brother syndrome, jesus christ
>>96502696The D&D Insider subscription service had 75% of Pathfinder's core base of 100k, ie, the people who buy products regularly, a full year after the game was put out to pasture and 3 full years after the shift to Essentials. Keep coping.
Wonder what's going on in this thread...
>>96502772>Measures itself by how much of the pathfinder market they can captureYeah that's a definite sign that they had lost the market dominance lol
>>96502721Because Roll20 has sucked ass for 4E since day one. It also infamously sucks ass for PF2.
>>96502773There really is no recovering this website after the removal of the IP count, is there?
>>96502788>Because Roll20 has sucked ass for 4ESo did real life. I guess the real problem all along was that 4e sucks ass to play in every and any format, huh?
>>96502655>Still outperformed 3.53.5e was outperforming 4th edition, actually. Not just relative to one another but in real time.The Amazon Best Seller's List in July of 2011's fantasy gaming category:1: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic2: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Core Rulebook3: Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale: A 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons Supplement8: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: The Pathfinder Bestiary9: Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game: An Essential D&D Starter11: Player's Handbook, Version 3.5 (Dungeon & Dragons Roleplaying Game: Core Rules)12: Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook (4th Edition)
>>96502792It's crazy how long one guy will spend talking to himself.
>>96502780If your subscription service alone is 75% the size of a competitor's core base when your own game is effectively 3 years dead, you don't have a real competitor.
>>96502788It's not like there were any other alternatives. The closest thing on the market is Foundry, but it didn't even have a 4e module until 2022.
>>96502850Nah, if you need to judge your share of the market by how much of another game's audience you can attract, you are now playing second fiddle. 4e got washed, tough shit, cry about it.
>>96502849It's kinda funny how he thinks he can trick other people into thinking he isn't just samefagging.
>>96502862That's not what that statement means at all.
>>96502862You are a retard who does not understand what a subscription service is.
>>96502873>>96502849>>96502792Like you're doing right now?
>>96502881I'm not sure what you're implying, anon...
>>96502875>>96502879>N-no judging the game by how much of another's audience we can get doesn't mean we're smaller than them!Incredible levels of seethe. 4e might be the most autistic failure in tabletop history. Its clingers are still going into histrionics!
>>96502839Looks like 4E's beating 3.5 to me, actually.
>>96502881I think we all are.
>>96502856To put this into perspective, Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition had a Foundry Module back in 2020.4e is less popular than the Vampire larp simulator is.
>>96502849>>96502873>>96502881>>96502901Like you're doing right now?
>>96502899PHBs of 4e is in 12th place compared to 11th place. 4e was just not popular. A few dedicated autists like 2hu really liked it, and that's all it had going for it kek.What WOTC should've done is waited 6 years and then launched it as an online thing with included microtransactions. Then they could've turned their autists into whales.
Oops, my bot broke. Sorry about that guys.Anyway, you should play #e. And don't ever think about playing #e. It sucks and nobody actually likes it.
>Edition warsDoes this shit only happen because 4etards can't find games? Can't you faggots get in a trannycord or something or is it really just one of you doing this?
>>96502947You're literally edition war posting right now, anon. Glass houses.
>>96502388And yet the Barbarian having limited rages per day never bothered you once.
>>96502955No, I'm asking a question, why aren't these faggots playing games? You DO want your edition to succeed right? The only way to do that is to run and play games.
>>96502961Yes it did.
>>96502670>for the average 3.5 player who was used to the rules being explained in an inconsistent and muddy manner that requires constant from the hip rulingsNever played 3.5 but only played 1/2 a session of pathfinder 1e.I think the problem is what natural language can be processed by human brains easier while 4e gamist language is less processed so easily.I can recover my spells after a short rest. Even though that's a technical term, it also has a real life meaning as well.However an "encounter" is a purely gamist and abstract concept. Which makes the powers feel arbitrary and videogamey rather than a result of fantastical natural law.
>>96502889Is this your inability to read, or your inability to understand numbers?
>>96502977No, gamist language is much easier to parse.
>>96502982The numbers say 4e sold worse. Die mad about it btw.
>>96502977Except encounter powers in 4e are also recovered after a short rest. It's literally where 5e got the concept.
>>96502969I'm running 4e tomorrow night, PF1e on thursday night, playing in a PF2e group on saturday morning, and ryuutama next tuesday (I alternate between groups on tuesdays because one of the guys in the 4e group has a horrible work schedule)
>>96502947>Does this shit only happen because 4etards can't find games?No, it happens because 3aboos get buttblasted someone started talking about 4e.
>>96502994>Except encounter powers in 4e are also recovered after a short rest.The difference is a short rest was 5 minutes, hence why they were called "Encounter powers".
>>96502993No they don't.
>>96502993Nope. Best seller. Try again.
>>96502996>I'm running 4e tomorrow nightThat's crazy, why are you sitting here fighting over edition wars instead of preparing? Do you care more about defending the "honor" of your system of choice than your group, anon?
>>96503024>>96503020Sold less than pathfinder. Cry.
>>96503015Yeah, a 5 minute short rest allows the players to actually justify taking a break in the middle of a dungeon without worrying too much about a potential ambush, compared to a 1 hour rest.But they still function the same way. The PC rests and regains the use of the ability.
>>96503028>implying preparing for 4E takes much time at all
>>96503042>But they still function the same way.Not really. One is 12x longer than the other.
>>96503047Every game benefits from prep work. There's no such thing as being overprepared. You'd know this if you ran games.
>>96503057>One is 12x longer than the other.And?
>>96503072This inherently makes them function differently, duh.
>>96503081And yet in both cases, a player can say "I can recover my spells after a short rest" and be correct.What's the issue?
>>96503096>And yet in both casesThey still do not function the same as one takes 12x longer than the other.
>>96503103And? How does that change the rest of the sentence you cut off?
>>96503103Not to mention that short rests in 5e are harder to actually use (The time obviously being an issue) but there are less things you can do. 4e lets you stand guard and travel via a cart, for example.It also has the gamey concept of healing surges that nobody likes.
>>96503117>And?And so they are inherently different.I know you don't want to accept that, but your acceptance isn't required. The market made its preferences clear long ago.>>96503124It's ironic how the gamist nature of it is what really killed it, and how even to this day spergs don't understand why that made such a difference.
>>96503124Healing surges are one of the best parts of 4E.
>>96503136>I know you don't want to accept thatI haven't disputed the point that one is longer with the other. "I can recover my spells after a short rest" is still a statement that applies to both.Why don't you want to accept that?
>>96503150People hated them back in the day because they were stupid and made no sense.
>>96503150>>96503157Healing Surges were such a good part of 4e that 5e tried to sneak it in with spending Hit Dice during short rests, and have been reinventing the wheel ever since.
>>96503152>I haven't disputed the point that one is longer with the other.You don't want to accept that this makes them inherently different however. It would bother you to accept that they do not function the exact same, and because you're emotionally immature, you can't change that.
>>96503162And yet you won't even acknowledge the rest of my post because it bothers you that much.
>>96503157No they didn't, they made perfect sense.
>>96503160>Healing Surges were such a good part of 4e that 5e tried to sneak it in5e has no Healing Surges. Instead you get to tend to your wounds and recover your stamina (rolled, unlike surges).In 4e you just got healed by uh... Who knows. Maybe they were regenerating health potions that were dispensed from the anus of every player character.
>>96503157You hated them because it was 4th Edition and you made hating it your entire personality some 1.7 decades ago.
>>96503186I like getting to the crux of the matter, and the crux of it is that they do not function the exact same.
>>96503191>5e hasHit Dice, yes. Which function in the same way as Healing Surges by letting characters heal during short rests. Just another example of 5e copying good ideas.
>>96503191You got healed by tending to your wounds and recovering your stamina, except there's a hard limit on it. That's healing surges.
>>96503193>>96503187>>96503160>>96503204The delusional samefag continues to defend the honor of his system, because he has no games to play.>Which function in the same way as Healing SurgesHealing surges heal 1/4th of your max HP.In 5e you can tend to your wounds by rolling your hit dice.
>>96500301The only people who bitch about D&D are people who play D&D or don't play games at all. D&D players need the catharsis and nogamers assume everyone is as much of a fag as you are.
>>96503203Oh, in that case, they are the same. Die mad about it.
>>96503215No, healing surges were just 1/4th of max HP recovery. You did not "tend to your wounds", it's just magical healing power that happens when you stand still for 5 minutes, like in WoW.
>>96503218>Healing surges heal>In 5e you can tend to your woundsYep, same thing
>>96503221>>96503232I accept your concession that they aren't the same and that you're mad about that. Seek therapy, child.
>>96502763I enjoyed 4e. Cuz of media and gamer culture half of the 3.5 tables evolved into metagaming. I mean thats almost part of the game ' this thing is going to kill us how can we work together to make that not happen' so making the combat fun is something worth doing for some games.
3.5e let you recover HP by resting, which is exactly how a healing surge works. 4e and 5e are both just aping the best edition as usual.
>>96503257I enjoyed experimenting with it myself, but my group didn't stick with it for long. It wasn't outright terrible, it just didn't have staying power desu
