I have been playing and running Draw Steel's playtest since August of last year, and have since moved on to the release version. I recently ran a brief level 5 game. This is my play report: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Be1a7GJ1gjK7SqYQWZmxA2Tx_nIF6vRcTNqOKuUUQ3g/editThe full version is above, but to summarize:• I had four players. One had already played the system a fair bit, and had experience with grid-based tactical games like D&D 4e and ICON. The other three were new, but also had experience with tactical games.• I set this in the timescape's space-fantasy upper worlds, in a UNISOL-aligned manifold. The story began with a counterattack on the fleet of Lord Syuul, and culminated in delving into the minds of two Space Gods to save a planetary system.• I kept basic numerical statistics transparent, but enemy traits and abilities opaque.• Negotiations were received poorly by the players. They felt too rote (uncover, appeal, uncover, appeal, repeat), and it quickly became evident that some PCs should just step back and let the characters with relevant perma-edges (e.g. High Elf Glamor) handle everything.• Montages had a somewhat better reception, but the players still were not too warm on them. They just do not like 4e-style skill challenges.• Combat was the most well-received facet of the system. The consensus seemed to be "decent, would definitely play again, but nothing special compared to other grid-based tactical games we have already played."• One pain point was that some characters felt locked into optimal routines. Our shadow spammed Shadowstrike, because it was the best thing to do. The players mentioned that 4e's AEDU felt more varied from turn to turn.• Another pain point was the sheer complexity, leading to slowdown. Maybe it was because three of the players were new, but mid-level combat felt significantly more complex than mid-level 4e combat, in large part due to the constantly fluctuating Heroic Resource pools.
>>96497917seems like alotta hoops to jump through when better games exits
The troubadour's player is writing up their own post-adventure report. It will be ready when it is ready, maybe in a day or so as of the time of this message.>>96497926I think that Draw Steel is decent enough for a grid-based tactical RPG. I would not discount it.
>>96497917Edna, have you considered just starting a touhoufag general so you aren't constantly shitting up the board with your autism across several threads? You've got like three up right now.
>>96497917Nice. Been wanting to hear more from this system.>>96497926>but nothing special compared to other grid-based tactical gamesWhat games do they consider better?
>>96497917>• Another pain point was the sheer complexity, leading to slowdown. Maybe it was because three of the players were new, but mid-level combat felt significantly more complex than mid-level 4e combat, in large part due to the constantly fluctuating Heroic Resource pools.And this is before we get into tracking surges on each PC, and on each attack...>>96498385>Nice. Been wanting to hear more from this system.Thank you. I am genuinely invested in Draw Steel, but I am not going to ignore its shortcomings.>What games do they consider better?In my case, the shadow's player seems to like D&D 4e more than Draw Steel, while the troubadour's player looks to prefer Tom Abbadon's ICON 2.0 (or at least the current pre-pre-pre-alpha of it, anyway).
I submitted my Draw Steel summoner playtest survey.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h2to8GJMvfcmg-G_aJCX4aGbZwaptldwpC5h7j0KyCo/editIt is a superb start, but...• The class has an uncomfortable amount of ambiguities. Furthermore, the minion rules are tough to grasp, especially since they diverge from bestiary minions at several key junctures.• Midair fall summoning should not be possible.• The bestiary has many board wipes available to enemies (some of which call for individual tests from each target, forcing a summoner’s minions to make all of those tests). "Oops, all your minions are gone" feels punitive and unfun for a summoner.• Call Forth should not be eligible for Learn from a Master (Hone Ability).• Take the Hit! is currently the single best summoner triggered action by an extreme margin.• The class's damage is front-loaded. It is excessive at 1st echelon, okay at 2nd echelon (Rex Scepter aside), and underwhelming at 3rd and 4th.• Swap Ward is just too good as printed, and too universally applicable.• Many of the treasures and titles in this document are too strong. The Warbanner of Pride, the 33 Field Commanders Baton, the Rex Scepter (particularly with dandeknights, and yes, even without the misreading that allows extra attacks on Strike for Me even on a natural 18 or below), Safeguarded, and Summoner Successor are especially egregious.• The retainer summoner is not good when it is stuck with razors and violences, and not ensnarers and spewlers.Atop all of this, everything is cumbersome. Resolving a summoner's turns is a hassle due to managing many minions, particularly a fey summoner's flying minions, which force the tracking of altitude and can share spaces with other creatures. The Safeguarded and Summoner Successor titles, in addition to being too strong for their sheer damage output, also flood the board with too many minions, severely slowing down the game. The retainer summoner causes significant slowdown, too.
>>96497917I'm gonna be real with you man. Your threads are terrible. Since this is basically a blog post, there isn't anything to really discuss.
>>96498781Nice and honest addition to the discussion. You definitely made this board a better place.
>>96498746Here is a bonus showcase. A level 5 fey horde summoner with a Rex Scepter (which can be picked as a starting leveled treasure if the game starts at level 4 or higher) and the Summoner Successor title is currently one of the highest-damage builds in the game, if not the highest-damage.At the start of combat, the fey horde summoner summons two sprite dandeknights. At the start of their turn, they summon four dandeknights as a horde summoner (maximum 16 minions and two squads summoned as a level 4+ horde summoner), and three dandeknights as a Summoner Successor (maximum 8 minions and one squad summoned as a Summoner Successor).The character starts their first turn with nine dandeknights on the field. Thanks to the dandeknights' Staccato Swings and the Rex Scepter, each deals 4 damage with a ranged free strike. The nine dandeknights all swing for 9 × 4 = 36 damage. If the summoner spends 5 essence on a Rally Cry, they each deal 3 more damage, so that is another 9 × 3 = +27 damage.But wait, the summoner has not even used their main action yet. They use it on a Strike for Me through their Rex Scepter, most likely earning a tier 3 result using the item's double edge. That is seven more free strikes, for 7 × 4 = 28 damage.The summoner has not spent a single Heroic Resource yet. They also have a fly and hover speed and 12 Recoveries. Take the Hit! makes them and their party exceptionally durable, while Swap Ward lets the summoner teleport around the battlefield, all but immune to non-damaging effects.The summoner gets more and more dandeknights each round. If the enemies are lacking in board wipes, they will be swamped by large stacks of automatic damage.I should know. I have played this exact build.
>>96498792There's nothing to discuss here man.These are blog posts. Touhoufriend is blogging here.So he starts was primarily a "draw steel" thread but in such a way that actively discourages discussing the game.And OP, genuinely, you'd be better off creating a blog about this kind of stuff.
>>96498875In these threads it is best to just talk around them. I like that I can play a teleporting sniper at level 1. That's been fun.
>>96498954Shadow (Black Ash or Caustic Alchemy) plus Rapid-Fire or Sniper is a tried and true, effective build. Admittedly, it can be rather repetitive and routine-inducing, as I have seen, but at least it gets the job done competently.
>>96497917Explain these negotiations to me. First off, do you got a PDF? Second, the way someone else summarized them is that they're a subsystem that could potentially be tacked on to another system. Is that broadly accurate?
>>96499017I am doing a lot of the same things round to round, but I've found that it gives over characters more choices to make as to whether the situation favors throwing love my way or on other characters.Combat can get a little samey when the encounter objective is just defeat the enemy, but my Director likes doing lots of different encounter objectives that help to mix things up and Black Ash has a lot of utility there. Last session I wasn't even really attacking I was on the rooftops teleporting around and sabotaging controls for security consoles so my party could win a traversal encounter across a locked down bridge before they were overwhelmed. Was a blast.One thing I am noticing broadly is that the system is at its poorest when you have a director that is doing back to back to back 'defeat all enemies' encounters. It shines with variety.
>>96499033All of the rules are available online for free:https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/You can have a look at the negotiation rules here:https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Chapters/Negotiation/In theory, you could port them over to another system if you really, really wanted to. I personally would not do so, but you might find them engaging.>>96499059I think that the shadow is more repetitive and routine-inducing than, say, a fury or a null. Those two melee classes have more varied decisions to make from round to round, whereas a shadow has a comfortable pattern.Yes, Black Ash Teleport is incredible for rushing objectives. I have seen it myself on multiple occasions:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgyUQXg6CP4f4FNzre6Jck0VrkjKmXmUaFx4ZUVDyZI/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.fcmxvyf68czfhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgyUQXg6CP4f4FNzre6Jck0VrkjKmXmUaFx4ZUVDyZI/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.b397o6jqkjtqhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgyUQXg6CP4f4FNzre6Jck0VrkjKmXmUaFx4ZUVDyZI/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.ll5hnicfbh03In all three of these encounters from the Delian Tomb playtest, the pregenerated shadow (Black Ash) used their enormous stockpile of Victories to funnel insight into Black Ash Teleport and instantly fulfill the objective.>One thing I am noticing broadly is that the system is at its poorest when you have a director that is doing back to back to back 'defeat all enemies' encounters. It shines with variety.I personally find that D&D 4e feels more varied and less routine-inducing even across back-to-back "kill all enemies" encounters. Perhaps it is simply because AEDU discourages reliance on a single pattern.Objectives in Draw Steel are okay, though the Monsters book's subchapter on them could use plenty of work. I find them incomplete in several regards. Many objectives are in sore need of round-based reinforcements, round limits, or both. And even then, monsters were clearly not designed with objectives in mind.
>>96499211Designing monsters around different objectives would be an interesting project.
>>96499301A problem with many of Draw Steel's monsters is that, right from level 1, so many of them have enough mobility to break objectives in half. Any objective that calls for mobility can be cheese by level 1 demons with Abyssal Rift, level 1 high elves (e.g. soot crows, zephyrs) with In Defiance of Time, level 1 wode elf scouts with speed 10 and Vines Everywhere, and so on.Those are just level 1 enemies, too, to say nothing of higher-level foes.
>>96499017>>96499059This is really damning for the game to be honest. The main appeal was to have combat that was deep enough that it would be fun on its own without the dm needing to spice up the encounters in order for it to be. This was to be the cs on de_dust2 that you can just play forever and it'd be entertaining, but apparently not.
>>96499641As I mention in >>96499211, I think it is more of a problem with the shadow specifically.
>>96499641Not him, but Draw Steel shines at its best when you are taking advantage of the high mobility and pushing/pulling mechanics.I don't know if you consider this 'spice up', but just make sure to put trees/pillars/walls to be pushed against and hide behind, and some difficult terrain/holes/hazard here and there for both parties to take advantage, and you will see everyone playing much more tactically, because it's not just a contest of dps anymore.
Starting a game with some friends soon. Frankly haven't done anything /tg/ in quite some time, so pretty excited. Is there anything like what pcgen is for D20, for this game? Something to handle the character sheet gen stuff for me? I'm not scared of crunch and I think I more/less get the mechanics, but it'd be kinda nice to get a character sheet all pretty'd up with all my spells and shit without having to write them all by hand.
I've played two sessions and ran 3. It's a blast. I wish they'd support roll20 tho
Can someone just drop a PDF link or at least greentext the basic mechanics (beyond the "you always hit and deal damage" shit, we know) so I can tell how much a pile of shit this game is? I'm not spending 35 dollars on a PDF. Fuck Fatt Coville and his simps. None of his advice is anything a relatively-intelligent person doesn't think of while running D&D anyway. And frontloading that advice onto a new DM is like "New Math": you teach someone shortcuts to doing mental arithmetic that they are supposed to think of naturally, after a full understanding of the concepts involved. Instead, you just confuse people and fuck up their entire mindset. Literally every single person I know who has watched Fatt's videos or recommends them, fucking sucks at DMing. I watched 2 or 3 while bored at work and I had to shut them off after that because I could feel the godawful mentality he has poisoning my mind. Also he supports leftism, fiction first, rule of cool, and freakshit races, so he is an even more insufferable twat.
>>964996411.) tg is always looking for an excuse to say something is bad. Break the cycle. Do you want to be the kind of person that looks for reasons to enjoy things or the person that looks for reasons to hate things?2.) Every system is more fun with a DM spicing it up with dynamic play and variety in what the players are doing. There is nothing unique about that to Draw Steel.3.) We are talking about the repetitiveness of a specific build of a specific class. One that I mentioned that I still enjoy playing, at that. That is hardly an indictment of the system.4.) No system is going to be fun forever for me. I will eventually want to run types of games that other systems are better optimized for. I will run this for a while and then I will move on.
>>96502578Dude, don't bother. Just play whatever it is you are playing and fuck off. Seriously, if you are this bitter at someone just mentioning a system in a thread no one invited you to, I never want the possibility of running into your obviously depressed, miserable ass outside of tg.
>>96498343He should just get a tripcode at this point. Not far away from avatarfagging.
>>96502819lmao. bro, I'm going to find it eventually. Don't worry. I WILL be shitting on Draw Steel extensively. I just want to be able to do it accurately. The game is definitely a poorly-made 4e ripoff and with books that cost 70 bucks each it's clearly overpriced as well. >>96499211>https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Just looking at the monsters' stats this is very clearly a bad 4e ripoff. Lots of jargon, same 6 stats as D&D just took away constitution and renamed them. I assume the "malice" mechanic is some DM metacurrency. That's a sort-of cool idea but will only work in a tightly balanced system where the Challenge Rating rules actually work, so it can be DM versus player to actually make it hardcore. Otherwise it just will be some gay add-on bullshit that the DM will end up not using half the time because the PCs are getting rekt by overpowered monsters.
>>96499211>https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Chapters/Negotiation/>go to read mode>estimated time 48-61 minutesI've never understood the need for such autism when you could just talk and maybe make a single role to see if you change someone's disposition.
>>96502974You might. I give it even odds you commit suicide first.
>>96503004Why would I commit suicide?So it looks like this game has a paladin/inquisitor type, a barbarian, a rogue, a bard, a monk that fucks with casters, a blaster mage, and a tactical fighter dude. That's kind of cool. Too bad it's fallen for the meme of "let's give you arrays and shit to build your character's ability scores slowly so that it's more balanced, but you also choke the fuck out of character customization">b-b-b-but character customization is actually.... LE BAD!!! because of coffeelock and punpun the kobold and stuffThen your game is terribly designed.Also looks like healing surges are back... cool, just stack the game with metacurrency right from the get-go. Everyone works off 4e's bizarre framework (including 5e) because it was a formalization of the 3.5e "adventuring day" which tried to force a structure of play that didn't need to exist. Now we are expected to run 8 encounters a day and none of them are challenging, just powerwanks for the PCs until they get tired and have to take a nap. And then adding in healing surges for false tension so you get close to 0 hp in every fight, but aren't actually significantly getting hurt.Really retarded structure and the auto-hitting is fucking stupid too. Just looking at the orcs where they tromp around the battlefield and deal 4 damage to everyone automatically, is just laughable. This game literally looks like one of those cartoon mobile games you get ad-spam for, that was probably vibe-coded by jeets with AI.
>>96502999Your character sits at a table with Volodymyr Zelensky and Vladimir Putin, ready for the kind of negotiations that you have spent your life preparing for. The war has been long but this is your time to bring it to a close. The life and death of hundreds of thousands hang in the balance. The livelihood of millions rests in your hands. Roll a d20. Ok you got a 16. War is over.
>>96503051Because it is all your fault.
>>96503061This system literally has me roll a d20 until I've gotten a 12+ four times to stop the war.
>>96503250This system doesn't.. use d20's.
>>96503452Mea culpa, it's 2d10 in the final release.
>>96503481...bruh. Just get the fuck out of here and come back when you have read the fucking book. Jesus Christ. This place is so infested with fucking no games and people who won't read the the books of the systems they want to play. How you gonna be a fucking poser on tg?
>>96503512The die type doesn't change that the subsystem is a hunk of autism.
>>965034522d10s aren't much more different except that they make modifiers more and less impactful sometimes.
>>96503061>Fattfan is unable to envision any scenario except modern politicsKek.
>>96498875>There's nothing to discuss hereWe could discuss how Wizard is still shitting up /tg/ after being banned from every group and IRC I know of.
Matt was wrong to change from 2d6 to 2d10 for power rolls.
>>96503785>A flat statistical distribution isn't much different from a statistical normal curve.Can you fucking squeakers please sit down and shut the fuck up while adults are speaking.
>>96503871All a curve does is change how important modifiers are my guy.
>>96503885>Squeak.Fortnite is that way.
>>96503904>No rebuttalI accept your concession.
>>96503934>was dismissed when it was clear you hadn't read to page 5>was laughed over lack of understanding of dice mechanics>still thinks this is a debateHoly reddit, Batman.
>>96503977>Still doesn't understand how probability worksThe adults are speaking sweetheart, go to bed.
>>96503994>desperately trying to get back in control>doesn't realize that he is on a leash>will go on replying for hours until I get boredWonder how long I can continue forcing you to reply
>>96504017*Yawn.* Night night time sweetie, this adult is gonna go "wrestle" with your mommy now.
>>96504046
Yep, that's why you lost.
>>96504073Whatcha gonna do. Kids like this need to learn to read the book. We are saved from his yammering for now at least.Anyway, let's all talk some Draw Steel. I really like what they did with the tactician. Sometimes with these sorts of support classes I worry that they are not going to be too impactful, but they really put some good variety into the sorts of aid they can throw around the battlefield.
Nah you lost and are mad kek, keep crying.
>>96504100Oh my god, You are still going. You know I was just fucking with you about you being on a leash and replying until I let you leave right? Like.. I didn't think you would actually do it. Is this sexual? Are you getting off on this? Oh shit, are you going to do that thing where you pretend to be someone else now?
>>96501979https://andyaiken.github.io/forgesteel/#/heroForge Steel may not be as polished as some of the character generators for like DND, but a bunch of the new players I've played with and DMed for have found it to be a huge help. Also some useful tools for other facets of the game. I generally like it, but don't always love the interface. Regardless, probably worth checking out and will probably do exactly what you're looking for
He's still mad that I won lol
Ednas threads were never that good but they sure have gotten worse now that he feels the need to reply to random trolls.
Nope you're mad that I'm superior
This nigga talking to himself now. We are in the midst of a mental breakdown.
Nope you lost
>>96504098In a hilarious twist of cosmic irony, this is the kind of thing that revives the "WoW-ification of DND" shit from the 4e days.Remember all the new players who want to be a "tank" when playing Pathfinder or DND, then get disappointed cause shit like total defense just isn't viable? They eant to play a tactician.I personally love it and greatly prefer this design paradigm, but people are clearly autistically screeching about draw steel in the way they screeched about 4e, and we can't really refute the screeching.
>>96504234Replying to yourself to keep discussion going? Wew...
>>96504234>Remember all the new players who want to be a "tank" when playing Pathfinder or DND, then get disappointed cause shit like total defense just isn't viable?Uh, no. Who the fuck would want to declare "I defend" every round? That's even more boring than a champion fighter.
>>96504259If you've never encountered the player who buys into the fantasy of having high AC, high HP, and tanking aggro for the party, you don't play enough games.This fantasy doesn't actually work in most games, and these players are mostly new or retarded, but they exist. Im fine with a system that allows that fantasy, instead of one who will never touch a game again cause their useless character did nothing and the whole party wiped.
>>96504300>If you've never encountered the player who buys into the fantasy of having high AC, high HPAll of which are possible.>and tanking aggroWhich is not possible because that's an MMO mechanic. And no, I've never encountered a player who gets pissy because the game doesn't work exactly like his video games.
>>96504334Again, play more games. For a higher-profile example that even no games can access, I refer you to the old Glass Cannon Podcast where, playing Pathfinder, one of the players wanted to be a party tank and made Four Bears to soak damage for his party, and this character was ridiculed for being both a useless shit for hoping total defense mechanics worse and also (quite hilariously) a bad stereotype of a (feather) Indian
>>96504384I'm a phone posting faggot, please ridiculed my faggotry and not my typos
>>96504234In many ways I think that 4E hit the tabletop community at a weird time. People don't really remember that well, but WoW devastated the tabletop community. Entire tables just emptied out overnight. Some people did both, but a lot of people for a good number of years just abandoned the hobby in favor of WoW.It left a lot of people, myself included, very prickly and even spiteful about MMOs and I will admit that I took some of that out on 4E at the time with the MMOification talk. I was definitely that guy. We are past that, though, and I honestly think that a reexploration of some of those mechanics is a good idea. To the extent that Draw Steel does similar things to 4E, I think it is a lot more palatable now than it used to be.
>>96504396Y'know what, because you asked nicely I will resist my urge to be a nigger at you anon.>>96504384I'm not saying it's impossible that someone COULD try to do something like that, just that it's not something I've ever encountered. Tanking isn't even particularly popular in video games so maybe that's part of it. But most players I know will call something a tank if it has high AC and HP.
>>96504457WoW came out 4 years before 4e did retard.
>>96504457I am very grateful to my mother that she refused to pay $15 a month for wow when I was 13/14. That shit would have ruined me.
>>96499211the null looks pretty cool
>>96504540What bearing does that have on my point? WoW came out. Tabletop community took the hit for like a decade. Lots of people were bitter about it. 4E came out. Seemed to have MMOish features. People took some of the pent-up bitterness out on it.You were in such a rush to "get" someone.
>>96504551I am loving that walking debuff aspect to it. Psionics and monks make for a cool mix. There whole things reminds me of that one thing from Shadowrun. Forget the name. Physical adept?
>>96504559You don't have an actual point, WoW didn't "devastate" tabletop because tabletop occupies an entirely different niche. Nobody was bitter about WoW when 4e launched because it hadn't affected the hobby in any significant way.They sure were after though, because 4e was designed to cater to the WoW audience.
>>96504559He got you pretty good tbf
>>96504576Hasbro was.
>>96504576>>96504585Literally exactly one minute between posts. Is (He) in the room with you right now? lol. Come on, man. This is amateur samefagging.
>>96504626>Exactly one minute>They aren'tDoes it hurt your ego that much to think more than one person is disagreeing with you?
>>96504576You don't know what you're talking about. WotC was internally considering RPGs a dying hobby at the time in part due to WoW and blamed 3.5's flagging sales on it in part too.
>>96504122This looks like exactly what I'm after. Thanks anon!
>>96504638Well you are decent enough to use inspect element.
>>96504643>You don't know what you're talking aboutMore than you.>WotC was internally considering RPGs a dying hobby at the time in part due to WoWSuuuuure buddy lol. Let's see a quote from their CEO blaming world of warcraft, go on.
>>96504666Nice to know that satan is also a delusional schizophrenic.
>>96502775I guess hearing that the rogue equivalent boils down to just doing the same thing over and over again like an mmo rotation in what is supposed to be a tactical game really struck a nerve since it's the class I'd be most excited to play. Considering the game hasn't been out that long, even if you've played some of the beta and you're already finding the combat repetitive I don't think is a good sign. The devs really pride themselves on extensive playstesting and making sure that the different options in the book are viable and comparable in power, to hear that the core class isn't fulfiling that doesn't feel great. You're right that one should endeavour to be more positive, but I only react so strongly because I care about the product and I've been looking forward to it as if any game is going to do replace dnd, it's this one. >>96501732No I always assume some sort of interesting battle map, but the "not him" anon's issues with the shadow didn't seem to have anything to do with good or bad terrain, they are just repetitive on their own.
>>96504681>and comparable in powerI'll never understand why people think this matters in tabletop games. Everything being viable and fun is more important than making sure we all contribute perfectly equal amounts. The most popular and culturally impactful games ever made were unbalanced as shit.
>>96504681I found one build of one subclass of one class plays samey in the context of one combat objective after one year of playtesting. Like, I don't mind in the slightest if that is your bridge too far, but don't act like we are agreeing with all this other shit.
>>96504533You could have turned this into a meaningless shit flinging of "uh huh" - "nuh uh" like the other fagfots in this thread, and you've instead opted for an angry conversation. Good poster, better than my phoneposting cretin self.I just hope you trust that these people exist, even if they're uncommon in MMOs (which you're right, they are). "Healbots" too, which work a bit better in DND, but I think that many come new to tabletops with these fantasies in mind, and I can't blame them. I've had to explain on many occasions that a game like Pathfinder is a game of rocket tag and you cant tank cause you pose no threat so people won't target you, and they struggle with not having a built-in way to make people focus them. Im fine with telling those people that if they want to make it work, then they'd better learn the fucking system and do something autistic with fringe feats like Blundering Defense, but they won't to that cause their concept already failed and they don't wanna play. Having the baseline be "hey, you're not useless you can push and taunt enemies and shit to control the battlefield the way you want to ask a high AC/ho character" in draw steel feels a better alternative.
>>96502578>dislikes something>spends more time on it and knows more about it than the biggest fans of said somethingI see this a lot on tg and it's the most pathetic thing imaginable. Think about what you're doing.
>>96504737t-thanks y-you too
>>96504748Now take off your pants and untuck.
>>96504737>AngryI don't know where you got angry from when I'm being more civil than 90% of posts on this site.>I just hope you trust that these people existSure. But them being uncommon is my point. Very few players approach the game thinking, "Yeah I want to sit there and defend while the enemies attack me."Tank usually means they want to be able to tank damage, not forego interaction entirely, there's a reason Barbarians often get called "Tanks". Same with healing, nobody wants to be the guy whose sole job is sitting there and healing, they want that to be just one important component of their tool kit.>I've had to explain on many occasions that a game like Pathfinder is a game of rocket tag and you cant tankThis, however, I do not trust or believe in. I've been playing since 2005. I've had four LGS's, I must have met a hundred different people irl between college and now, I've played just about every system that was popular at some point between the late 90s and 10s, I've looked over IRCs and discord servers to talk about and in desperate times find games to play in, and I've never once seen this. So I severely doubt you've had to, on "many" occasions (Which at the level of experience I'm used to, would roughly mean dozens), explain that you can't sit still and tank. Maybe once, maybe a couple of times within the same group. But few people will come to the table with the fantasy of "Sit still and soak hits".>Having the baseline be "hey, you're not useless you can push and taunt enemies and shit to control the battlefield the way you want to ask a high AC/ho character"This I also think is slightly delusional. If you try to tell someone who wanted to be a tank (whether in the MMO sense or the common vernacular) to play a Tactician, they're gonna be immediately put off by the name alone.
>>96505003I'm not talking about incoherent rage like the other faggots here. "Anger" is the baseline on this site. It's why I'm referring to you and to myself as a faggot, and why you were going to call me a nigger. Anger isn't a bad thing, it's just a performative mode and part and parcel of the very nature of this godforsaken place; the ideal /tg/ post is an angry one, and if an anon can't sort the trolling from the ribbing from the schizoposting from the actual good content, they're too autistic and probably shouldn't be here.I think its slightly delusional to refer to my point about tanking as an archetypal fantasy as "sitting still and soaking hits." And while I haven't played with a "tank" person with draw steel - I'm engaging in a thought exercise - if a player asked for help with a character who could "tank," I bet they'd be thrilled with a simple pitch "you can mark a target so that your allies are more effective against it, and you can either taunt an enemy or direct your allies to attack."I'm sure you've encountered players frustrated when Pathfinder, with all of the possible feats, frequently demands that a few very specific feats are required so that the character can hit adequate benchmarks. Have you had to explain to ANY of these hundreds of players that power attack is good because making the enemy die faster is the best tactic? Very few new players come to the table with an intuitive understanding that power attacking with a two-handed weapon is incredibly strong, if a bit boring, especially if they've been sold on the idea that "Pathfinder has so many feats that you can build any character you can imagine!"The "tanking doesn't work" is a variant of the "here's why power attack is good and many of these feats are trap options." Maybe the "tanking" fantasy comes up more frequently cause I went through a period where I had to play in-person with some genuine bluehairs who were new to games, but you're free to dismiss my anecdotal experience.
>>96497917(You) will never be a woman.
>>96505191Edna has posted nudes on discord before with a timestamp sharpied on her tits. Bitch is actually pretty fucking hot.
>>96505175Curse words =/= angry. Ever been to a pub?>tanking as an archetypal fantasy as "sitting still and soaking hits."I mean, you literally described this in mechanical terms with Total Defense. And while I'm not an MMOfag, I enjoy sunlight too much for that, I know that the way tanks are played is to sit there and make the enemies hit you.>I bet they'd be thrilled with a simple pitch "you can mark a target so that your allies are more effective against it, and you can either taunt an enemy or direct your allies to attack."Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how it's sold to them. "Direct your allies to attack" is one thing I don't think is a common factor there though, nor is battlefield control in general. People who say they want to tank want to play a guy whose main shtick is that he can take way more hits than everybody else and has the vibe of a guy whose big and brawny. Tell them "Oh, you want to play the Tactician?" and most of them will be predisposed to dislike that due to the name and all it does to preclude that possibility.>I'm sure you've encountered players frustrated when PathfinderI don't like pathfinder so no. In my experience, it attracted a very unusual type of autist who looked at the dying mess that was 3.5e and said, "Yep, I want more of that."I do know what you mean from 3.5e though, and it was really only a complaint that I saw build autists getting upset about. Most people didn't care as long as something viable enough existed for whatever silly idea they wanted to play out.
>>96497917If your point of comparison in a positive light for a game is dnd4e it sounds like you really just wanted and should have played a video game instead.
>>96505003>>96505175Also note that my typing has improved cause I have moved from my phone, because while I think you're a stupid faggot and you're wrong, I respect your comments enough to engage with you on my computer now, and without dismissing you out of hand with a "nuh-uh u wrong." This is basically what I mean when I praised your willingness to engage in angry conversation.> they're gonna be immediately put off by the name aloneI'm also curious about this, because I've largely avoided pitching to new players (and they've basically all been new players to some degree, considering how recent draw steel is) using the class terminology. I think that D&D baggage has polluted common consciousness so that even many normies know the basic class archetypes, and I think draw steel is trying to get away from that but in a shitty way doesn't actually succeed. "Fury? Oh, so it's a barbarian!"I mentioned some conceptual archetypes like "tank" that exist outside the standard tabletop space, and I'm questioning if any of the other "archetypes" I might list as compatible with draw steel are "MMO" archetypes. Just thinking out loud.
>>96505231>Curse words =/= angry. Ever been to a pub?That's exactly what I mean, actually. I referred to it in my later post as performative anger, which I hope clarifies.>Total DefenseReplace "total defense" with "fighting defensively" and the broader point still stands in my mind. Perhaps I should have been more careful in my wording.
>>96505233Yawn.
>>96505231>>96505259One last thought because I got called away and just hit post before fully replying>I don't think is a common factor there though, nor is battlefield control in general.People who say they want to tank want to play a guy whose main shtick is that he can take way more hits.I think we are discussing different archetypal fantasies. My perspective is that the "tank" wants to take the hits so that his team is in a better position to succeed, so things like giving an action to let allies do something frequently appeals. Anything for them to eat shit, but for the party to come out on top cause they're the big daddy protector, not just the grizzled, brawny hp sponge. Shit like the Protection fighting style in 5e, or the life link of a Pathfinder oradin. I almost feel bad for going to D&D-adjacent examples as my primary ones, but they're the most common so they're what I'm defaulting to.
>>96501732I have previously talked about how forced movement builds in Draw Steel are some of the most overpowered PCs around: >>96419270>>96502578All of the rules are available online for free:https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/>>96504098I am a great fan of the tactician as well. I think that the mastermind subclass is plainly better than the others, though; Overwatch is a fantastic triggered ability, Goaded allows damage to be spread around the party, and Anticipation makes Mark much more flexible by applying it to two targets.In the party I Directed for, I am 100% certain that a tactician (mastermind) would have been significantly stronger and more synergistic than the troubadour we actually had.>>96504234Tacticians are offensive support and offensive enablers first and foremost. Defending other PCs is merely a very minor facet of their toolset.>>96504551>>96504571I think that the null is the one class with the highest optimization ceiling in the entire game, particularly as a hakaan null (metakinetic): https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96220096/#96226573>>96504681I really do think that it is the shadow that is the most locked into repetitive routines.
>>96506180Shadow is definitely pretty fucking repetitive. I think one saving grace is that everything that makes shadow repetitive can be fixed with new abilities in future books. One thing I am noticing about the design of the classes is that bad classes don't really have to stay bad forever Because so little is really baked in as core class features.That said, if I were to fix it, I would give them unique ways to spend surges that tack effects onto other moves.
>>96506213They seem to be prioritizing new classes, like the summoner and the beastheart, over new content for preexisting classes. I am unsure of when we will see the latter.
>>96506293That makes sense at the outset. I noticed that happened with PF2 as well. They initially hard rushed new classes, but eventually turned around and plumped up options for existing.
