What makes PbtA games so disliked on /tg/? I hate to admit it, but I was interested in the Avatar game before becoming disappointed after learning it was PbtA, but I've never even played a PbtA game let alone read the system. The only times I've seen people talk about it is to say it's not really a game but I don't really understand what makes it not a game? Characters still have to roll when they attempt an action, still have progression, can still fail.
>>96512999oversaturationit was a fantasy heartbreaker that was propped up by skotos tech more than a decade ago over on big purp, and an easy way to get your buddies a writing credit and in to the gama industry backrooms
pbta is easy and accessible as a framework for games, meaning that the rpg world is inundated with pbta games that are poorly made and worse written. Since so many pbta games are bad, it gives an impression that pbta itself is bad. It's sort of become the go-to rpg framework for people who don't know much about rpgs and don't really want to.
pbta is probably fine as far as high-fluff systems go, but avatar legends is the epitome of pretentious fart-sniffing, made for people who look down their noses at those who actually enjoy a tactical combat now and again
>>96513020>>96513045What are the must play/good pbta systems? I really don't know where to start.
>>96513321Apocalypse World (the originator), Ironsworn, World of Dungeons coupled with some OSR bestiary.
>>96512999>>96513321So, PbtA only really works well for a narrow range of genres and game types. Ironically, the original Apocalypse World and Dungeon World (which started the PbtA trend) are not in those categories. Both games fucking suck and aren't any good at the things they want to do. However, because 99% of PbtA games feature "lemme copy your homework" levels of creativity and imagination, they end up copying the same mistakes.In my experience, the only one that really delivers on the promise of the PbtA framework is Monster of the Week. Characters are TV show archetypes. The threats are vague supernatural monsters of any flavor you want. The moves play into the genre and are there enough to evoke the broad beats of that genre.
>>96513357way back before the PbtA boom really took off, I ran three sessions of monster hearts and had it work.All the players were young enough to remember being idiot teens figuring their shit out, all the players were on board with the idea of a game that took "monsters as windows into human psychology and teenage identity drama", and everyone was OK with a game that featured uncomfortable romance and the idea that nobody was getting a "then they banged, paired off, and it was all happy" ending.That worked fine, but it worked because of the players more than the system.Meanwhile I've played a campaign of flying circus and found it fucking intolerable. The mechanics were grinding against the roleplay constantly, the game insists you do these specific things in this specific loop, and there are a bunch of unnecessary things stapled on to the original rules framework, and it stinks of autism in a bad way. I have dated and then married an autist, we've been going fourteen years, so when I say flying circus stinks of autism I don't just mean it as an insult for anything crunchy I don't like. I mean it's a hyperfixated mess that determined its sacred cows and then slaughtered anything that threatened those cows.
>>96512999A lot of the games made on the system completely miss the point. They think the game is a playbooks, moves, 2d6 success on +7, high success on +10. That stuff is part of it, but the bigger part is the procedural stuff, the player and MC agendas, and the MC moves.Devs have also wanted to go super broad with it, or try to cover a bunch of edge cases with hyper specific moves (Baker himself fell into this trap in AW 2nd edition.)Also, there are a lot of people like this asshole >>96513277 who think that any game that doesn't pander directly to them is somehow a personal attack.
>>96513813In defense of >>96513277, Avatar Legends really is kinda at war with itself regarding fighting stuff. Easily one of its biggest weaknesses IMO, which isn't good when most are attracted to AtLA for the martial arts.
>>96512999>Characters still have to roll when they attempt an action, still have progression, can still fail.According to the people I've seen defending the engine, it's the exact opposite.Or rather, players aren't meant to attempt actions. The moves aren't meant to be like a skill list. They're meant to be purely resolution mechanics called for at the GM's whim.Similarly, a failure isn't necessarily meant to be a failure. You're not rolling to pick a lock or heal someone and failing. You open the door to find guards, or you heal someone's wound only to find they've been poisoned. A low roll isn't a failure, it's conjuring up a dramatic twist. Because the GM also isn't meant to have everything finely detailed in advance. He's meant to be discovering what happens at the same time as the players. It's still a game, but I think why it rubs people the wrong way is because it ends up feeling closer to a board game. Sort of like if you sat down for a game of Life with your friends with the goal of play-acting in response to the various life events. You can lament the fact that your house floods, but the idea your house had that risk didn't exist until you landed on the space. By the end of the night, you may very well of crafted a compelling narrative of the journey of several friends through a life full of many financial highs and lows, but you didn't really make many choices in the process. You're largely just at the whims of random numbers, playing out whatever story beats are dealt to you.
>>96512999PbtA doesn't work for any genre that isn't le power of friendship animeslopEvery single game using the system I have played leans into some sort of friendship or team mechanic
>>96514004PBTA is great for running FATE powered games without have to run those games with FATE
>>96513992>Or rather, players aren't meant to attempt actions. The moves aren't meant to be like a skill list. They're meant to be purely resolution mechanics called for at the GM's whim.I can't really agree when a lot of those moves (and the advise for using them) are player-directed, alter stats that they roll, or outright grant experience for players acting a certain way.
>>96513992>It's still a game, but I think why it rubs people the wrong way is because it ends up feeling closer to a board game. Sort of like if you sat down for a game of Life with your friends with the goal of play-acting in response to the various life events.I mean that's part of it but that it plays very differently from other games in other respects as wellIn D&D or some such you can tangentially consider synergies with your party, in PbtA you're essentially playing as your party. Most games you can't even muster a simple success without someone helping you
>>96514112>outright grant experience for players acting a certain way.Yeah, that's the part I saw the defenders talking about, where the players aren't supposed to be playing in order to specifically enable a move. They're supposed to roleplay, and then the GM decides if a move applies. In that context, playing PbtA like a normal rpg is precisely why it falls flat for so many people. Because if you play it like D&D, players are going to see they have a move that grants them free XP, and spam that as often as they can. That's what people are describing as the wrong way to play, with the right way being for the GM to be fully prepared to recognize and identify when moves get triggered. The players focusing too heavily on their moves or what actions their character is results in a weird sort of metagaming if they try to play it like a roleplaying game. It results in the players pidgeonholing themselves, which due to how the rules are relatively light, makes it feel like the game simply lacks options to help them succeed. When really, it's more that the game doesn't care if they succeed or fail, because something interesting is meant to happen regardless.
>>96514162It seems like a flawed foundation that wants to have its cake and eat it too. It presents itself as a an RPG, spaces for backstory and advancement and all, but it doesn't want anyone but the GM to do any actual gameplay to the point of putting all work in their hands. It's like some satire made by someone really angry with passive players.
>>96514162I think codifying fail forward (in PbtA it's more like succeed backwards) rules is a mistake, it's like an overcorrection of 90's games where you rolled on a table to see if you shot yourself in the head if you rolled a failure
>>96514124Most Pbta don't work like what you're describing. Hell, it's weighted that you'll get a lesser success more than half of the time on an unmodified roll.Are you thinking of Forged in the Dark?
>>96514297A lesser success in PbtA wouldn't be a success at all in most games
>>96513045Notably, this is the same problem the OGL had, except that the fundamental skeleton of 3e is also quite bad.
>>96513357I have to give credit to Dungeon World for being the pluperfect game for groups that normally play D&D as a fuckaround game. Throw 90% of the rules out, give the GM more license to mess with stuff, make player abilities more freeform. Exactly what those groups need. Is it what _I_ want to play? No. But that's not the game's aim.
>>96514317>make player abilities more freeform.I wouldn't even say that much, at least anymore than flavoring any 5e Class Feature would be.
>>96514424I was thinking of various magic moves which are much less stratified than the spells in D&D. Should have phrased it better.
>>96512999PbtA requires a different mindset/approach from more traditional RPGs, and I think a lot of people have difficulty with changing into that mindset. Some of the other anons have already discussed the whole "moves are not supposed to be a skill list" thing, but I also think that fundamentally you have to approach the game more as an author/director than as an actor, if that analogy makes sense at all.I've played in 2 PbtA games: Free From the Yoke and Urban Shadows. I really enjoyed Free From the Yoke, but the duels system is definitely meant for conflict between players and doesn't work well for player-npc duels. That specific campaign got a bit sci-fi weird at the end, but that was more GM than the game itself. Urban Shadows was less fun; I'm not sure if it's because the other players didn't really seem to want to interact with the debts system, or if it more suffered from "we're trying to fit every WoD gameline into a single campaign." I suspect it was a combo of both.PbtA are totally games though. However, anyone who tells you that Wanderhome is a game is someone you can safely ignore. I think stuff like Fiasco 1E and Good Society are basically the bare minimum of "qualifies a game," and Good Society is cutting it real fucking close.
>>96512999Quests aren't games, so it stands to reason activities operating similarly to quests also aren't games.
>>96513357>In my experience, the only one that really delivers on the promise of the PbtA framework is Monster of the Week. Characters are TV show archetypes. The threats are vague supernatural monsters of any flavor you want. The moves play into the genre and are there enough to evoke the broad beats of that genre.Masks is much in the same vein, except angsty teen superheroes.
