>>96545829
Dont glorify the tomb of horrors. Its a bad module

>>96545856
>Its a bad module
its a bad module for long-term campaign play or people who are attached to their characters
but it is good for what it was intended, which is a one-shot adventure with loads of pre-genereated characters and playing for high score

the fact that everybody and their mom has already dissected tomb of horrors and spread it on the internet makes it even harder to run in this context
no point in the challenge once everyone knows the solution

>owning the theatre kids (who're not actually at your table) by playing crappy save or die modules

>>96545870
No. Its bad by design. It was intentionally made to commit as many game design sins as possible to be an unplesant experience to the players trying to sit through it. If you had ever even read the book you'd know that "playing for a high score" only exists in a tournament context which is the reason why the dungeon is inherently adversarial- it is designed to force you to fail unfairly. The "puzzles" are arbitrary and unsolveable, the "traps" are unavoidable and the way to "win" with any reliability is to cheat with ooc information or just go home and sell your starting gear. Dont be such a secondary faggot

>>96545870
>but it is good for what it was intended, which is a one-shot adventure with loads of pre-genereated characters and playing for high score
No, it's complete and total shit, any way you look at it.

It's a shitty "Guess what I'm thinking" dungeon, with nonsense instant death traps, pointless "puzzles" specifically designed to punish players who try to parse any meaning out of them, and is generally neither fun or exciting, just randomly punishing.

It's a dungeon famous not for being good, but for being so bad. And not intentionally either; Gygax was never a good designer and most of his adventures are trash. ToH just stands out as being more trash than the rest.

>>96545829


It works well if all the players realise they are playing a game with throw away characters and don't get to attached to them, preferably with each character having a load of Henchmen in tow that the player can instantly take over and run as the new character with when the current one dies. It's basically a wargame in which you try to have a piece left on the board at the end (as most D&D used to be at the start)

If you try to play it with modern gamers that use their character as a larger than life reflection of themselves that are usually wrapped in cotton wool by the DM to protect them from every danger and slight, you will be have some problems trying to run a module like Tomb of Horrors accurately.

>>96546101
>If you try to play it with modern gamers that use their character as a larger than life reflection of themselves that are usually wrapped in cotton wool
holy mother of strawmen batman

>>96546105
You might be talking to a troll.
You're DEFINITELY talking to a retard.

>>96546101
shitposting is still shitposting, even if you are doing it ironically

>>96545829
https://www.enworld.org/threads/wir-s1-tomb-of-horrors-spoilers-spoilers-everywhere-%E2%80%8F.306885/

Pretty interesting thread.

>>96545829
No, I play with my friends and not people I want to punish for some reason.

>>96545870
>it's bad on purpose
>therefore it's good!

>>96545829
Storygamers will never understand the idea behind a tournament module because they are too obsessed about "muh story arcs" over playing a game.

>>96545829
Tomb of horrors drinking game when?

>Mention game that isn't based around gooning in /troongoyim/
>Instant melty
ICONIC.

>>96546101
Holy mother of truth nukes.

>>96547129
It's not even good as a tournament module.

>>96545829
Tomb of Horrors actually heavily rewards theater kids by having lots of riddles, probing the environment, and using lateral thinking not in regards to the game's basic mechanics in order to overcome them. The ridiculous save-or-die scenarios are a result of the lack thereof, not a direct challenge.

>>96545870
Tomb of Horrors was made specifically to punish dungeon-crashing players, who just go through dungeons to kill and loot. You're completely misunderstanding the module as well.

It's not a "good" module per-se, since it wasn't made with any actual story and was made with malice intended for the players. It is "good" in the sense that it is meant to evoke non-linear thinking from the players.

>>96547659
>riddles
theater kids hate this
>environment
they can't speak to it they don't care about it lol
>lateral thinking
they despise anything that isn't acting out a preset role
ToH was built to punish the metagamer and the rollplayer, theater kids didn't exist back then but its great at breaking them too.

>>96547129
Retards will never understand that competitive RPG play was always fucking terrible.

>>96548313
Skill issue cope

>>96545939
>The "puzzles" are arbitrary and unsolveable, the "traps" are unavoidable and the way to "win" with any reliability is to cheat with ooc information
>>96546082
>It's a shitty "Guess what I'm thinking" dungeon, with nonsense instant death traps, pointless "puzzles" specifically designed to punish players who try to parse any meaning out of them, and is generally neither fun or exciting, just randomly punishing
You want to point at any specific examples, or are you just talking out of your ass?

>>96547190
>game that isn't based around gooning
Who do you think you're fooling? Masochism is a fetish.

Are these theatre kids in the room with us now while fucking your mom?

>>96549421
Macbeth

>>96548352
Enjoy poking everything with a 10 foot pole for 6 hours and not finishing the dungeon, schizoid.

>>96547706
>theater kids didn't exist back then
I wonder what your definition of "theater kid" is. If it's "telling a satisfying story that the players are a part of, participate in, and ultimately end up choosing the outcome", then that dates all the way back to the 70's. But most of the challenges in Tomb of Horrors are designed deliberately to not simply be achievable by rolling high, but thinking of creative solutions. It was meant to kill smurfs and grognards.

>>96550916
>then that dates all the way back to the 70's.
It doesn't. Gamplay came first. You cooked up something resembling a story from the outcome of play. Vs the modern theme park we iz gonna do a tolkien le epic story. I mean great for you if you like that kind of faggotry. But thats not what early dnd was. Its closer to a boardgame version of Rimworld.

>>96550021
you have a 1-in-3 chance for probing with a stick to fail anyways, and no amount of perception can help you with that

the optimal solution is to be as blunt as possible and sweep the entire hallway a once with your followers
this was a tournament module, you wouldnt use this character long enough for your followers to mutiny,

>>96545870
Thus we ought to take the lessons of it and apply it future dungeons to make them better.

Iterate on the good, toss out the bad.

>>96550984
Sounds retarded.

>>96550983
As plenty of people have pointed out, the gameplay mechanics suck because the optimal player strategy is using meta knowledge. On top of that the actual dungeon mechanics are often counterintuitive and require parties to take actions that are, from an in-game perspective, stupid. There are far better constructed, more entertaining, and more enjoyable modules from the era that provide a challenge and sense of accomplishment. The ToH is a novelty of experimental game design to produce a specific outcome in a specific game format against a specific type of playstyle, but that's all it has going for it, novelty, and unfortunately it's been around since 1975. It's the TTRPG equivalent of a hot sauce challenge.

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>>96546198
I like that this thread goes into such autistic detail and proves the point, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that people have made for decades: ToH doesn't make any fucking sense and the only way to win is to know how every single trap, puzzle, and trick already works before you ever even start. It even pretends to be fair by claiming there are clues and hints for what to do, but as the thread points out, those hints are a pile of obtuse bullshit or they hint at nothing, leaving out the most important and useful information entirely.

>>96550916
>If it's "telling a satisfying story
Games are not about "stories" or "telling stories". It's about playing a game. Hence
ROLE
PLAYING
GAME

>>96550984
>you have a 1-in-3 chance for probing with a stick to fail anyways, and no amount of perception can help you with that

>brings 3 sticks

>>96551568
what kind of game anon?

>>96551817
Hmmm I guess one in which you role play.

Play a role if you will.....in a story.

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>>96545829
Haven't played Tomb of Horrors but I frequently run OSR one-shots between campaigns. It both cleanses the pallet while waiting for the next campaign and also introduces them to other games that aren't 5e.
I'll typically do the peasant funnel from Dungeon Crawl Classics. Recently I sent them through a Paranoia one-shot which they enjoyed immensely.
>>96545856
>>96546946
>>96546082
It's a convention tournament module. That's how Gary designed it. It's not meant for the standard play of a regular session. It's a test of the player's skills and wits, meant for "roll play" and not "role play". It's literally meant to be played as Anon (>>96545870) described.

>>96545939
>just go home and sell your starting gear.
This just made me wonder - what is the most expensive "starter gear" set you could get? What would make you the most money if you just sold it and fucked off?

>>96551875
>It's a convention tournament module.
And, as people have said repeatedly already, it's a bunch of stupid bullshit and obtuse moon logic that can only be overcome by group trial and error. It's a random sequence of numbers and everyone is taking turns guessing a number by listening to all the other numbers people have already guessed.

It's fucking stupid and the fact that it's stupid on purpose doesn't mean it's actually good or that there's a special context where it works. It's just an infamously tedious pile of bullshit.

>>96545856
What's a good module that fits a similar purpose then?

>>96545829
https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?cache=1&f=1&t=11427&c=1

This is a transcription of a fanzine covering the Tomb of Horrors from it's debut in 1975.

>>96551568
>Role-playing games are not about role-playing.
That is pretty funny. But also true for joyless bloviating nogames, for sure.

>>96551817 (Samefag)
>>96551826 (Samefag)
I forgot it's called the greatest role playing in a story game of all time
OH WAIT ITS NOT LMFAO

>>96552177
>role playing
lel stay mad

role playing GAME
not story shitting GAME
I win :)

>>96545870
tl;dr - it's a bad module

>>96545856
fibby pibby

>>96552314
Your autistic misunderstanding of how the word "game" can be used is astounding. You're probably the kind of person who freaks out when someone mentions "session zero" because you can't comprehend using the word session to mean anything less than a 4-6 hour period of gameplay time.

"Tomb of Horrors" is such a badass name for a dungeon that somebody should re-write it for OSR / AD&D and make it a compelling and fun adventure.

>>96545829
It's not exactly a good dungeon. It's literally just a published version of Gygax's notes on a contraption he made to make players suffer because they thought they were really good at the game.

There's a lot of things about it that are designed poorly. In a lot of ways, and not just one specific way.
>There are details that literally serve no purpose
>There are a numerous fake-outs
>Stuff exists just to make people tilted, rather than to be challenging
>You can die, be maimed, or lose your stuff with no warning, sometimes with no saves

I used to like the idea of this thing when I was a teenager, but I kind of grew out of the mentality that makes wanting to subject people to this seem fun. I still like coming up with traps and tricks, but Tomb of Horrors is just not actually good.

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>>96550983
Wow, that's an awful lot of strawmanning headcanon you got there, but you're wrong and incredibly fucking stupid.

>a boardgame version of rimworld
Lmao

>>96551295
the 10-ft pole is pretty much the only thing standing between you and death
DEX is pretty unreliable, since maximum DEX just boosts your 15% of dodging to 25%
if you fall in, its entirely up to luck whether you get impaled by 0, 1, 2, or 3 spikes, and you save-or-die for each spike hit
50% chance to avoid all spikes and there is no way to change that

this is why people resort to sending hirelings in first like its indiana jones and the last crusade or sending in a feral hog to thunder run and find a safe path
these solutions, while reliable, do make your characters look somewhere between strange and insane
in tournament play, these kinds out-of-pocket moments are immortalized for eternity but they can be immersion breaking if you are playing normally

>>96551295
it is, that's why people stopped playing games like that

>>96553165
even from a gameist perspective, its not really consistent like this thread points out >>96546198

in order to proceed through the door with many swords or to get the gem of true seeing, you need to be very careful and persistent with inserting objects even when it looks like its punishing you for it
you need to keep inserting gems into the gargoyle

but if you come across the archway of reversal, then trying to zip in and out of it too much results in you being ejected back to the start totally naked, so in this case you dont want to risk it

>>96549262
How about the trapped chest thats undetectable by detect traps because the "trigger mechanism is invisible inside the lid" (the lid is somehow not part of the mechanism)

>>96550984
Or just load up with useful Detect Trap spells instead of the usual AoE stuff.

>>96551439
Keep in mind the traps were built to kill off any tomb robbers trying to steal the treasure within. Modern gamers are like bank robbers complaining that the bank is unfair because it has walls, locks, traps and guards that might injure them. Having a Tomb (or a bank) that people can waltz into to help themselves would be fucking retarded.

>>96553932
>Modern gamers are like bank robbers complaining that the bank is unfair because it has walls, locks, traps and guards that might injure them
if you are playing a game where you are all bank robbers, then it is still an absolutely fair complaint that the game has fake difficulty

>Having a Tomb (or a bank) that people can waltz into to help themselves would be fucking retarded.
the complaints are less about the difficulty and more that its frustrating rather than fun

>>96553932
Except it's not difficult. It's retarded clown logic. Robbing a bank is difficult because it's dangerous and many things can go wrong. ToH is retarded because it's just a string of retarded traps that kill you if you do literally anything except the highly specific things that don't kill you. No bank robber has ever stepped on the wrong tile and activated one of the bank's dozen instant death spike pit traps.

>>96554254
>No bank robber has ever stepped on the wrong tile and activated one of the bank's dozen instant death spike pit traps.
This is why I don't leave my stuff at the bank, it's like they're not even trying.

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>>96547706
Are these "theater kids" in a room with us right now?

My only complaint about the tomb of horrors is the mechanics of the traps are a bit arbitrary. I don't mind that everything is a trick.

>>96554285
And they still have the nerve to charge service fees even though they aren't even really protecting your money. There's not a single roaming monster in those vaults!

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>>96554254
>No bank robber has ever stepped on the wrong tile and activated one of the bank's dozen instant death spike pit traps.
WotC Exec: Get Overkill on the line, I have an idea!

>>96555712
That kind of attention to security is more of a Credit Union thing.

>>96545829
I change the sphere of annihilation to look like a giant ass with two hands clenching its cheeks. It's closed at first, and a switch in the room opens it. I've had more success of people trying to go through it for the lulz

>>96546105
It's a steelman if anything. The reality is considerably more dire.

>>96552489
Game
a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

>>96551826
Nope, in a game.

>>96553027
It's amazing how failed novelists have been twisting this passage for decades to mean
>I can force my shitty writing upon the players and they aren't allowed to stop me!
No matter how many times it has failed to keep their games running.

>>96551875
There is no such thing as roll playing. Roleplaying is making decisions, and everything you do in a game is making decisions. The outcome of decisions in a game is determined by rolling dice.

>>96551955
roleplaying is not story telling.

>>96553616
You got a page number or a screenshot or something? Because I'm looking through and can't find what you're quoting.

>>96556162
>a form of play
Sounds like something you'd find on a stage. Perhaps in a theater.

>>96545870
>Tomb of Horrors remains unknown, GMs run it for their players who go in blind
>Vast majority of runs end in ignoble failure, usually from surprises the players had no idea about and just stumbled upon
Or
>Tomb of Horrors has been taken apart by players everywhere
>Everyone knows what the dangers and traps are already
>Runs become a mechanical exercise of following steps to get through without any challenge

Where's the happy medium? Should players ever feel like they've lost because of bad luck through no fault of their own? Should they have the answers in advance and be expected to treat modules like they're a classroom quiz?

>>96557029
>a form of play or sport
Sounds sound very Shakespeare.

>>96557029
No it doesn't.

>>96556181
Yes there is. "Roll play" is a pure crunch game. Where your character and the party's build is more important than the RP. It's where stats, math and number crunching is more important than pretending to be a fairy. There are other modules and campaigns that exist that play to this style. Rappan Athuk is one that comes to mind that's geared more toward this style.

>>96559075
Wrong. Everything you do in a game is resolved by rules.

>>96559093
You're completely retarded and missed his point entirely. You're agreeing with him.

>>96559097
Nope.

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>>96545856
All pre made RPG adventures are bad.
People who buy these stuff are literal npcs without criativity or imagination.

Not theatre kids no, because it's a high level AD&D module for players who know the playstyle and capabilities of high-level AD&D characters really well and doesn't make sense outside of that context.
The vast majority of uses of it are pretty much the same as taking a sandbox setting and making it into a pure railroad, totally missing the point.

>>96555712
I'd even be satisfied with some dogs and pit-traps, but nothing.
>>96555744
>WotC
Now those guys know how to deal with their property. Not really in the trap/monster-filled dungeon fashion, or even in the "keep a consistent output of quality" way, but in the "hire murderhobos to retrieve things you've erroneously misplaced" fashion.

I Played through tomb of horrors a dew years ago. With another player (2 chatacters each) rolled at high level (10 I think?) With a couple random rolled mahic items. Or at least to what my playgroup considered the end. Which was like a lich on a couch or something? I think 2 characters died. It took us idk. Like 3-4 play sessions of osr trap grinding. 10 foot pole. 200 lbs of rock on each floor tile. Ect. Even then we woulda all died if it werent for some arguement about how much rock we could move with a spell plus some hours of work while guestimating how long we had till c02 toxicity killed us. My group usually plays osr games and it wasnt hardly as lethal as our normal lotfp or ose games just because we took the time to be pedants about it. Grind/10

>>96547706
As a theatre kid I loved Tomb of Horrors when I played it at a convention. Everyone else at the table were grognards who got a real kick out of me committing super hard to characters that were undoubtedly going to die. Probably helped that the con had a bar right next to our table. The maze of secret doors right off of the first hall was particularly fun, I was at that point playing a foppish elf who survived repeatedly survived being shot by the trap stormed out of the room complaining that such work was beneath him only to easily flattered into going back in.

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>>96556189
>nogames
>still mad about nothing for no reason

>>96545829
Man, say what you want about the puzzles being dumb, but I really like the art. The "atmosphere" just feels right. You don't get that anymore.

>>96559361
It's from when they started adding more illustrations to D&D books for interior room sections

>>96559233
>Which was like a lich on a couch or something?
That's not the end. It's a fakeout illusionary ending to trick the players into thinking that they beat the dungeon. I'm not even joking.

>>96559331
lol seething

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>>96561027
>Still nogames
>Still sperging about nothing

>>96562420
lol seething

>>96545829
Nope. Grimtooth's. They kinda expected ToH, so I broke out a few favorites.
They still curse my name under their breaths. "At least it ain't Tucker's Kobolds," I reply.

Good times. Many screams.

I've been accused of as much. I think I'm a pretty fair handed DM but these people overreacted to any kind of consequence at all.

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>>96545829
>This fucking thread once more