What the fuck went wrong?
>>96551887Backing down from making the Chechen cave-dwelling gangrel.
>>96551887easier to list what went right. Here, I'll start>
>>96551887I mean, nothing really. Some of the clan combines are ham-fisted, but I've played it and it is perfectly adequate for telling the kind of stories you expect from VtM.
>>96551887Bland mostly. Lots of the flavor and excitement has been squeezed out of the setting/clans. IMO, people want to play Sopranos meets Blade. The new edition feels more like NGE meets Twilight.
>>96551887SJWs. 2010s culture was anti-edgy.
>>96551887I think what I liked the most about it was reintroducing broader humanity as a legitimate threat with the Second Inquisition. V20, vampires had far too much control over society broadly which made everything feel a lot more stagnant. Breaking masquerade was bad, but not really the end of the world cause the amount of control the vampires had meant they could just hush up low-level breaches without much trouble. Now that the Second Inquisition is out there, especially with them launching a decapitation strike on the Tremere, shit got a whole lot more real.
>>96552047>clan combinesthe what
>>96552221A lot of the smaller groups formed a thing called the Hecata.
>>96551887They wrote too much. I love and still play VtM. Nothing published after 1998 exists.
>>96552281>Hecata>Founder Clan Giovanni, Harbingers of Ashur, Samedilmao thanks, googled now. I mean, it kinda makes sense, but...Ok whatever
Clan Salubri, whatever happened there...
>>9655188790s ended
Did everything went to shit after gehenna or before it?
>>96551887Despite the game in the 90s claiming to be about personal horror, it was actually about power fantasy and fanged superheroes. The Euro-Larpers who bought the thing thought that it was actually about personal horror, and made a the game mechanically about that, and it made everyone mad.
>>96552381Based.
I like the idea of playing it. I have made several characters for it in a couple different settings but I am never able to really RP it out or enjoy the scenes.
>>96552381it was that or just wanting to strip everything cool out of players?
>>96552410You can still play a teleporting shadow sperm, my dude. It just isn't capeshit with eyeliner anymore. That is improvement.
>>96552358My guess is DURING Gehenna
>>96552505So if we delete the gehenna book out of existence then everything from revised and below is cool? sounds nice
>>96552464>nooooooooooooo you can't be a cool vampire you need to be a punching bag that doesn't offend anyone AIEEEEEE BEING POWERFUL VAMPIRE BAD!
>>96552612>the screeching of someone who knows what marvel phases arenature is weird
>>96551887Personally the oversimplification of the setting. Reducing unique disciplines to 'amalgam powers', bloodlines became loresheets, all the necromancy clans being blended into 1 single clan (to be fair the ground work was sorta being laid out in two of the older books), and turning the Sabbat into roving bands of NPC antagonists.Ive noticed the hunger system really turns people off. Makes the risk adverse unwilling to do anything in fear of a messy critical.
>>96552738>Makes the risk adverse unwilling to do anything in fear of a messy critical.Pussies should play with the consequence-free editions.
>>96552738>Ive noticed the hunger system really turns people off. Makes the risk adverse unwilling to do anything in fear of a messy critical.sounds like they want to be superheroes and not monsters
>>96551887Made an already clunky and shitty system more clunky and shitty in ways that made no sense.Turned the political angst up to 11 and chose politics that are relatable to nobody except the mentally ill.Ditched the metaplot, but not really so it ends up being incomplete in detail (Applies to most things in the book) and yet still wants to change shit that didn't need changing and was not made more interesting through changing.Removed cool shit people liked (Dementation is no longer an actual discipline)You can basically do everything V5 does that's good with any older edition, and most groups already were. But V5 is filled with retarded bad shit so if you decide to use it you're stuck with that.
>>96552738>b..b..b..but what if I lose humanity. You are fucking supposed to!
>>96552768>>96552791>>96552806Yikes, the V5 defense squad has arrived. I hope Paradox pays you at least!
>"I don't like this game mechanic, it's bad">NO ITS SUPPOSED TO BE BAD STOP SAYING YOU DONT LIKE IT!Lul
>>96552825>Defense squadIt's obviously one poster bro.
>>96551887Nothing at all.
>>96551887I'm reading through it right now and my issues are>too much virtue signaling about IRL issues >rules are too vague about things you'd expect to have more meat like combat, but weirdly in depth when it comes to feeding. Also not a big fan of the dozen different morality trackers.>art and layout is fucking abysmal, like seriously who the fuck greenlit this shit?Haven't actually played the game yet, so I won't comment on how it runs, but the book is a pain to get through despite WoD supposedly being rules lite.
>>96553201>like seriously who the fuck greenlit this shit?A group of swedish LARPers who don't give really give a crap about tabletop WoD, put in charge by Paradox Interactive, a video game company who didn't give a shit because they only bought the IP to make a sequel to VtM Bloodlines.
>>96553256Game literally has rules for making an ancillae in the the same place you learn how to make a neonate in the core book and then released even more advanced ancilllae character creation rules in a special ancillae book.Don't even know what the fuck they are talking about with the Anarch focus.Typical Xcretion.
>>96551887Removing unique clan disciplines was a fucking retarded choice that's also pretty much impossible to justify in-universe.
>>96552079What is NGE?
>>96551887Claiming Chechnya was run by vampires and harvesting homosexuals for their blood, that was a pretty big misstep.
>>96551887The Current Day setting was probably a bad idea. I guess what I'd do is start in 1990 as per the OG Vampire. Most people willing to play Vampire to begin with are smart enough to like history and have enough mental bandwidth to relate to people from past decades. So you'd have normal vampire stuff in the 90's, a bit of War on Terror paranoia in the 00's, Great Recession era desperation, and then the iPhone age could be a sort of a apocalypse event. Tons of stubborn Boomer vampires would get killed giving opportunities for vampires able to adjust to living in the panopticon.
>>96553479Neon Genesis Evangelion?
>>96553481>Claiming Chechnya was run by vampires and harvesting homosexuals for their blood, that was a pretty big misstep.HAHAHAHAHWHAAAT
>>96553479Nigger Gay Excellence
>>96553481To be fair, the Chechnyan government suing WW for implying they kill gays is pretty funny since they do actively kill gays
People are dunking on the Chechnya thing but I think IRL vampires in the 2020's probably would be feeding on undocumented immigrants, political dissidents and terrorists in permanent/secret lockup, schizo homeless, and other people no one would miss. You couldn't be a Victorian gentleman vampire only preying on pretty debutantes or you'd get caught. You couldn't even be a 70's/80's style trucker serial killer bumping off hookers and hitchhikers because there are cameras everywhere and even the poorest people have smartphones.
>>96554675I think that's because VtM is a 90s-early 2000 game at most, barring dark ages or victorian stuff. But not later. And people, players and designers alike, should accept that.Now I can imagine vampire existing in a world like the current one but not in the extent is implied in VtM
>>96551887The same thing that went wrong with cyberpunk - real world went to shit and became unfun to roleplay.
>>96553298Anarchs are so shit that they lost their mcs spot again, and the devs need "better than the lowy players" rules for their OCs.
>>96553481The fun part here is that the goatfuckers actually do kill gays and everyone knows it. They were condemned in international tribunals for doing so. But I guess Paradox don't have the balls to defend their virtual signalling.
>>96554880Didn't the gay community also hate it because it was saying that all the deaths were caused by Vampires?WW didn't blame the Holocaust on one of their evil faction, like the Sabbat or Technocracy in the Charnel Houses of Europe, so it does show a lack of tact on WW's part.
>>96554675>You couldn't be a Victorian gentleman vampire only preying on pretty debutantesThere's an entire clan doing shit like this which is the issue. The lore is written for the 90s and on the cusp of the surveillance state where the masquerade can believably exist but still be on the edge of shattering (Unless one starts claiming every other cop is a ghoul and every government infiltrated all the way up to the highest levels of the lowest alphabet agencies).Frankly they'd be better off going with a Dresden Files approach in any post-90s reboots where the supernatural is openly known of. The masquerade is irrevocably shattered and every other creepy weird freak's sekrit club gets busted open. They would probably just turn it into superheroes with fangs though because white wolf writers trend towards being lame as fuck
>>96554675real life vampires would be feeding on their immediate family or partner perpetually without bothering anyone
>>96551887The initial "personal horror" premise was always shit. Dark Ages "Call of Cthulhu but with Vampires" was better. Society got afraid of everything edgy post-2010.
>>96554907Yes, but that doesn't let them virtue signal. Instead you're pointing out something that humanity is bad on itself and don't need anybody manipulating them to do these atrocities.
>>96554913Another good reason to maintain the setting in the 90s or 00s is the existence of subcultures. They were more prevalent back then. There's no need to push people to use tiktok in vampire world.
>>96554954>real life vampires would be feeding on their immediate family or partner perpetuallyThis wouldn't work in VTM because you need like a couple dozen people to sustain yourself without causing lasting harm, and more if you're actually spending blood on powers.
>>96552179That's a good point, it did shake up the torpid status quo that existed in the metaplot before that, and allow for more chaos, dynamic politics, factioneering and rogue elements, all of which contribute to a deeper, more complex roleplaying story for separate tables. The game had become too calcified, it was time to break some stones.
>>96555209what? you need like 1 blood point per day
>>96555217> chaos, dynamic politics, factioneering and rogue elements,>If you use an !phone once (1) you're killed by humansKEKAROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>96555217>The game had become too calcified, it was time to break some stones. So "feeding sims" is the only supported game mode now?
>>96555248And it takes around 2 weeks for humans to recover 1 BP.
>>96551887Watered down all the cool shit because everything good in the pre-9/11 world has to go.
>>96551887Bland, magazine style core book, over simplification, retcons, larper art, nonsensical changes.
>>96555324no it doesn't
>>96555349Ok keep playing homebrew.
It was given to nepobabies who were more interested in getting them dank retweets than making something good.Letting the pedophile have his own splatbook wasn't a great move either.
>>96555421>nepobabies>Letting the pedophile have his own splatbook wasn't a great move either.QRD?
>>96555421>Letting the pedophile have his own splatbook wasn't a great move either.Which one?
>>96555343The art for the new edition is a big step down from the B&W work of the earlier editions
>>96555486nta but I'm guessing that anon is talking about Beast the Primordial
>>96554913>>96554675If I was lazy and wanted to keep the increasingly hard to envisage masquerade status quo in a world of smartphones everywhere, I would just use the whole 'vampires don't have reflections' thing and expand it to recordings of any kind. I don't think that's too much of a leap.Maybe not pic related, that's a little too weird. But some vampire media has it so they're still visible but they're so blurred you can't make out anything but a shape. Like your mirror is frosted glass.That could work. Then they'd still be on CCTV and shit and it wouldn't just be people being picked up and carrier away by poltergeists. It'd just be what looks like normal video but things would always conspire so that they're too featureless to actually track. Every police report is just: "Suspect is male, white(?), around six foot, possibly wearing an opera cape and dabbing away tomato soup from his mouth wiuth a hankerchief".Maybe make it so they can turn it off and on so not everyone is the Lasombra or even something like if you know what the vampire looks like it doesn't affect you. I don't know, that's the quick and lazy solution anyway.
>>96555503>If I was lazy and wanted to keep the increasingly hard to envisage masquerade status quo in a world of smartphones everywhere, I would just use the whole 'vampires don't have reflections' thing and expand it to recordings of any kind. I don't think that's too much of a leap.I think they should work on cameras. Theoretically, ONE of the original reasons they didn't reflect on mirrors was the "magic" of the metal, especially silver mirrors.
Before the thread dies, what would you do to improve on V5? If you had complete creative control of V6 what parts would take and leave from the previous edition?
>>96555823back to 2eback to goth subcultureback to edgynessback to early 2000s vibesreturn back erased disciplines and clansV5 never happened, leave nothing of that dumpster firetake somethings from the metaplot in Revised but leave retarded gehenna shit outsideno more virtue signalling, all political positions get shit onrevive dark ages eventually0 censorship, all out edgy shit including nudity and sex
>>96551887Same thing that have happened to all of them, the makers got old, fat, balding, pussy whipped and brainwashed by their skank wives.
>>96555503>I would just use the whole 'vampires don't have reflections' thing and expand it to recordings of any kindThat would probably be the worst ways to do it. It's a specific clan weakness because not having a reflection is an easy way to reveal a vampire; Mirrors are obvious but if someone sees you disappear when they try to record you on their phone, you're caught. The masquerade would break harder and faster than ever before.All the alternatives pose the same issue. Blurry? Now it's even more obvious. At-will power? Now you disappear in the middle of recording and it's even more obvious.There's really just no way to fix the surveillance state issue other than putting it in the hands of Vampires.
>>96554675Honestly, I think a modern VtM needs to lean heavily into the idea of it being a "World of Darkness" and not just our world with more rain and goths.* you go back to the 17th Century and have some Ventrue and Lasombra encourage the Church to fixate on blood transfusions being sinful while simultaneously introducing this weird new thing called "blood play" among the nobility. And the kicker: the Kiss makes it actually fun! Fast forward to the present and blood play is to the WoD what asseating is to us: weird and unsanitary and people doing it anyway because they think it's sexy and taboo.* Play up the idea of the economic divide (it'll help you really get into the "punk" side if you do). People are desperate for money, they can't afford a cellphone let alone a smartphone, they can't afford good internet, and ramen is 70% of their diet. If that's hard to grasp, then take your scariest dreams of the economic future five years from now and set it in that time period. On the upside, budget limits mean the only parts of town with cameras everywhere are the parts the vampires -want- cameras everywhere.* I'm sorry, but vampires don't live in your home town of 25,000 people. They're in the cities, and they have strict population controls (1 per 100,000 at most). Yes, this seriously limits your potential to do games set around "Duluth by Night", but it's also one of those things the Masquerade operates by and is forgotten by everyone (and by "everyone" I mean the players and writers both).Just fixing those three things (blood play is quasi-normalized, tech sucks because people are poorer, play the game by the rules) would do miles to make the Masquerade more plausible in my book.
>>96556170>but it's also one of those things the Masquerade operates byIt's one of the lines the Camarilla claims to aim for*In practice it never happens and is unenforceable.
>>96556199Honestly, you're right. It's a noble goal for the Camarilla, but then the Sabbat come in and make a bunch of disposable shovel heads for yucks (and to intentionally endanger the Masquerade). At some point the answer to "how does the Masquerade even plausibly work" boils down to "a vampire did it. Now swing that enchanted chainsaw!"
>>96552806Humanity is a pointless system. V5 failed because the devs decided YOU WILL play the game their way. In the late 90's early 2000's we had a Vt:M LARP with 40-50 players every game. Hot chicks and lots of fun. All that's gone now, the numbers don't lie.
>>96551887Well, there was the time they instigated an international incident with the junta in Chechnya.
>>96551887I like the updated mechanics. V20 is functional, but V5 is better. The math is generally better, hunger as a dice in the pool that can make you act out is WAY better than frenzy in V20 that generally got ignored, it's better than blood-as-mana, etc. As far as the system goes, it's pretty much a slam-dunk improvement in every way.The lore-backing is just aggressively shitty. Say what you want about it, everyone LIKES the setting and the metaplot. It's one of the big draws to the setting. Shaving off the rough edges and completely neutering the universe are different things entirely.For example, they basically got rid of elder vampires and methusalah fuckery by having them all by sent off by the beckoning... Why? So that cities could be ruled by swarms of high generation vampires instead of a small group of low-gen elites, I suppose, but getting caught in the swirl of fucking jyhad was the FUN part.The premise of the setting is just actually fucked up now. Personally, I always just tell people to run V5 but use the Old World of Darkness as a setting instead.
>>96556241It's not even a purely sabbat issue, it's a natural result of political dynamics and (in)human error. Different groups and factions will always want more members, more power, and one of the most efficient methods is bringing in fresh meat. Clans will want to expand, anarchs and cammies will want to tilt numbers in their favor, the Sabbat is a threat everyone must contend with and be ready for and controlling your numbers is a weakness. And on an individual level, every could-be-sire will want a childe to use and abuse.Even individual Princes will have varying desires on the matter; It's easy to imagine one who'd want more Vampires than "population limits" would allow, because more subjects is to have more power. And also because they rule via divide and conquer; while two people can easily find something to agree on, ten will find it difficult, and a hundred will find it impossible.And there's also simple human factors. Giving favors like promising a subordinate a childe, having trysts whom you don't want to see grow old and die, feeling vengeful and turning the pretty girl on TV into a nosferatu, or just not really knowing the rules and acting recklessly.And of course there are matters of travel and how at certain times of year or events (Take Mardi Gras in New Orleans by Night for example) there will be an influx of Vampires. I can't imagine a Prince would be happy if there was a risk he might be overrun by unfamiliar faces either.Balanced against this, is really only the threat of being found out. And worse, everyone's take on that will be slightly different. Maybe there are more conservative (not like that) vampires who believe the 1:100k is a good limit. Some will think it too restrictive, or maybe not enough. Many others will probably go lower just to spite the rules and their makers. Some might be overconfident and think they could hide with even as low as a 1:5k ratio.At least ghouls exist.
>>96556321>everyone LIKES the setting and the metaplotThe issue, I think, is that people only really interact with things online by complaining about them. For a long time, people constantly bitched about the metaplot. Now that the metaplot is gone, all people do is complain about that.
>>96556372People bitching about the metaplot never made any sense because you could always ignore it with no issues, or hell just take what you wanted from it with no real issues.Now you still get dumb lore restrictions that people change/ignore but there's also nothing really beyond that.
>>96552791>fun power fantasy is capeshitHow are pussy V5 vamps monsters exactly? They're meant to be played as woe is me brooding YA vamps.
>>96556150the solution is just to stop sucking the cock of the surveillance state. this idea that a setting needs to address it in the first place is stupid, just don't put the game around this era. you can have make a point that some section of vampires are actively opposing it. but corporations like paradox hate power fantasies, and prefer making players slaves to this shitty technology, probably as a form of propaganda.
>>96556598>this idea that a setting needs to address it in the first place is stupid, just don't put the game around this eraThat's what I said.
>>96551887Implementation. All fields. Most major changes are understandable but explained and justified in the most dumb way possible. The book itself is a mess, almost a 101 on how to not design an RPG that you want to be a reference on a game table. From things like information being scattered around the book, shit typography, woman's fashion magazine style, and the insane and downright comical photos instead of based OG black and white art. The most 'defanged' vtm to date, but I think that if the book wasn't so shit most people would be meh about instead of the hate it received.
Do you use that memoriam mechanic? "I take out this thing from my ass because I'm a kinky little shit" rules are not new nor bad, but having to relive and roleplay the events leading to you getting that thing instead of just a quick justification do seem a bit cumbersome
>>96556927>memoriam mechanicNo, no one uses it because it's something that should be a 1pt merit that no one takes
>>96556598>>96556150No, the obvious, simplest solution is to not have vampires have any weakness to mirrors or recording devices. Same for their other weaknesses, such as garlic or invitation into houses, or fear of running water. Those are archaic weaknesses that 1) only appeared in some mythologies and 2) are inconsistent and unnecessary for a contemporary urban horror game. Only keep the two things that make vampires iconic: need for blood and damage from sunlight. This instantly removes a lot of the surveillance state problem.
>>96556150I think it could work. Just make it explicitly magical that something about vamps reject attempts to copy their image. That's fine in settings where all the curses are explicitly magical anyway.If it's more 'in the eye of the beholder' face blindness than a binary on/off censor effect it'd be fine.Like, you take a picture of your good friend Vlad, you know Vlad's face, you see that picture and all is normal. But anyone else who looks at it just sees Generic Man. There's nothing unusual about it. There's nothing identifying either, just some dude. Someone could put it on the evening news, people look at it and it could be anyone.Except maybe if you were watching TV next to Vlad and he says aloud 'oh, that's me' suddenly it's like getting a magic eye picture and you see it and it's so obvious it's Vlad, how weird you didn't pick up on that...Putting several effects under 'Vampires are cursed and blessed so that the world rejects attempts to copy their visage, to better facilitate preying on humanity' might work best. Like if there is a reasonable way for to fail it will.Film photography? It's just way more likely that the person developing the photos will mess up on that one photo. Crappy old CCTV system recording in 240p where someone would be difficult to see anyway? Then it'll just be extra hard for whoever is using it to make out their features. If you have a high-powered sophisticated AI facial recognition service, it just fucks up in whatever way is most convenient for the vampire unless someone is babysitting it each step of the way.Sort of like some odd mirror of paradox from mage. The world knows vampires aren't meant to be recorded, so things get shunted around slightly as is convenient. It shouldn't be perfect - vampire hunters should probably be able to make use of a general pattern of there being surprisingly few pictures of someone or a general uncertainty around it - but it should heavily bend odds in their favour.
>>96556501I don't disagree with you, I just think boiling it down to "everyone liked the metaplot and then they killed it," is probably an oversimplification. Some people really liked it, some people really hated it, I think for most it was and is closer to value neutral, exactly for the reasons you say.
>>96557132To add to that, if a vampire hunter knows someone is a vampire and gets a picture of him, they're not going to have any issues. They see that guy and know it's that vampire fuck.But trying to show a picture of him biting someone as proof to randos, they should just be like 'yeah, I guess maybe it kind of looks like him? A bit? Not really actually it's kind of a shit picture, are you okay?' Vampire hunters should come across to normals as high strung paranoid weirdo jumping at shadows. If anything having a magic curse gaslighting them into second guessing the hard photographic evidence they have somehow got would add to things there.
>>96557132Or you could just work around it. Having "safe" hunting grounds be a contested important resource like they were supposed to be and cleaning up breaches to the masquerade with ruthless efficiency.
>>96557132>Like, you take a picture of your good friend Vlad, you know Vlad's face, you see that picture and all is normal. But anyone else who looks at it just sees Generic Man.This creates a problem in and of itself because while they cannot identify Vlad through photo imagery, they'll know something fucked is going on.Frankly, you've missed a vital problem here: It's not about identifying individuals. The masquerade's overarching issue is not "So long as nobody can ID you, you're k"The problem is that it's about suppressing the fact that Vampires and the supernatural at large exists. If they do something fucky to cameras and cameras are now everywhere, they are going to be even MORE noticeable.
>>96551887Buffalo Bill Tzimisce characters are now a heckin valid protected class, the true world of darkness.
>>96557002that only solves a part of the problem yes you delete the surveillance but that leaves you with a shit setting ran to the ground. YOU DON'T NEED VAMPIRE TIKTOK. just let it fucking go. put vampires where they're supposed to be, in a time period where they can actually bloom. stop trying to press for fucking social media shit in a fucking vampire games nobody fucking cares.
>>96557139>I don't disagree with you, I just think boiling it down to "everyone liked the metaplot and then they killed it,"It's less that and more "some people liked it, most people used whatever they wanted, a small group hated it."And as in many situations, the small group was loud and got listened to, to the failure of many game lines.
>>96557278Is there even an audience for Vampire? I question if people can even roleplay anymore. Every game out there has people that play their characters with modern Neo-Liberal "morality" even when it's an insane missmatch. D&D yep everyone in the miltiverse is a r*ddit mod, 500 year old Vampire, yep they really hate racism and bigotry more than anything. WTF
>>96557315This seems like a you fixation that you can't get over. People want to play urban horror games in the real, modern world of now. It's not 1920s Call of Cthulhu.
>>96557220Hunting grounds don't exist on the net. If you want to keep the game in the west - and no one wants to play African vamps - there is no amount of precautions to outdo everyone having a camera in their pocket. At some point *someone* is going to go Rötschreck on camera. It's just gonna happen. Either the vampires are already in control of the entire world and can override everyone's phones, which is lame, or there's something supernatural going on. >>96557260 I guess I overfocused on the Vlad. For how the effect would work on a bigger scale, think of Big Foot or UFOs. There's loads of 'evidence'. But it just happens that every single one is awful quality, shaky, out of focus or just conveniently cuts off at just the perfect time to be unhelpful. Or "I had perfect footage but I lost the tapes!" That is what I'd be suggesting for vampires. It's a supernatural effect that fudges the odds to obscure wherever possible, and vampires are a minor urban legend. No one ever worries about Mages getting outed in the same way as vampires do, because consensus reality. If normals could recognize Magic they'd be Mages already. In the same way reality knows you're not really meant to be able to see a vampire's image except directly, so it works with that in whatever way is needed. The vampires would still need to do damage control: it would just now be believable that they had the opportunity now without being the World Government. On the face blind thing, people do not notice they are face blind - its kind of the point that people will go their whole lives not noticing anything is wrong (very funny, look up stories sometime if you want a laugh). But it''d be the vamps job to make sure if a mugshot of Vlad biting a prostitute did show up that it gets out of the public conscious ASAP to minimize chances of people who are maybe more willful or resistant from noticing that the photo seems to be unusuallly uninteresting to people who look at it.
>>96557338Playing RPGs is now a mostly parasocial experience where you don't personally know anyone in the group. Most people will default to the status quo or try not to mention anything outside of the orthodoxy, not accounting for the useful idiot tourists who see the hobby as a lifestyle brand or some of replacement for a personality. The only way to have a true roleplaying game is by filtering by game system or by some sort of survivorship bias where the group is formed from a pre-assembled group. Not to get into edition wars, but while in theory a table playing V20 and another playing V5 are playing the same game, they aren't really playing the same game.
>>96557460>For how the effect would work on a bigger scale, think of Big Foot or UFOs.This comparison falls flat because neither exist and would not work the same way.Again, not overfocusing, it's just that it fundamentally does not make the vampires less noticeable and making supernatural shit happen every single time a camera looks in their direction will always make the masquerade HARDER to upkeep, not easier.
>>96557509I really don't understand your thinking. Let's say that a berserk vampire is in a nightclub, killing people one by one and feasting on people while using blood magic to cut them into little pieces. Someone hiding in the upper level brings out his phone and starts streaming to freaking twitch. Pick two options:A) Everything works fine, his stream goes up in beautiful 4k, people watch for an hour until the guy is killed visibly on screen. Vampires are revealed to the world.. B) The effect kicks in, reality nudges the dice. Everything that could reasonably go wrong does. Oh, his connection is suddenly bad, the quality is low and the audio keeps cutting out. In his panic he touched the lens for a moment and left behind a smudge so everything is blurry. People can't see much, can't really say what is happening. Oh, stream cut off. Weird. Well, whatever, whole thing looked super fake anyway. What else is on?Now both of those will get attention, but which is easier for people to ignore? Especially if there's a magical compulsion to forget about it and move on. Which is easier for vampires to cover up? What, that livestream hoax from a few weeks ago? Yeah that was wild, but this entertainment company fessed up, it's a teaser for this new movie come out. Looks rad bro.You can't say that things going wrong in believable if coincidental ways whenever proof of vampires show up on camera is worse than vampires actually being on camera. One has no chance at all of hiding them, the other just makes it *really* difficult. Of course even with that Vamps would probably still be fighting a losing battle to clamp down on everything. But honestly I kind of like that, vampires feeling like they're just barely hanging onto not fucking up and revealing the masquerade is fun. But worldwide information sharing is such a big deal that having a vampire equivalent of paradox massaging things behind the scenes is pretty much necessary just to even slightly even the odds.
>>96557643>Someone hiding in the upper level brings out his phone and starts streaming to freaking twitchI deny your false dichotomy and goalpost shifting, and instead substitute it with my own:Regardless of any scenario, the masquerade is getting broken. That Vampire is probably getting staked and thrown into an incinerator before daybreak. But if it's streamed, the Cammies try to perform as much damage control as possible, and all that matters depends on proliferation of footage and who takes notice of it. How that can turn out depends on the ST. But, here's the problem: The scenario where Vampire bullshit gets caught on camera, where obviously supernatural shit becomes publicly visible would occur again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Over and over and over, and there will very quickly be a moment where the dam breaks and the masquerade is done.>Ah, but what if Vampires are now practically mages and consensus reality applies to them?Their powers would fail in the presence of mortals and they'd suffer paradox and a ton of other shit we're not getting into because it's a long rabbit hole that would be so dumb and pointless even WoD writers didn't try it. Sorry man, but this just sucks and feels like a mangled attempt to force a square peg into a round hole. You're better off doing as >>96557315 said: You don't need Vampire Tiktok, dude. Let it be.
>>96557643yeah but what's the reaction of people that see that?>fake and gay lol>AI slop>what are they trying to distract from
>>96557770>goalpost shifting,>I will do anything to avoid explaining why I believe that coincidences that obscure direct evidence of the supernatural are explicitly more noticeable and a bigger risk to the masquerade than actual evidence of the supernatural that would break the masquerade.>Paradox.I'm sure you have the reading comprehension to realize I wasn't suggesting vampires are mages - though they are known to interact with paradox in a way that confuses actual mages since they can openly use magical effects that'd get a mage splatted. Instead I was using it as an example of something similar that already exists in the setting. The way paradox works is consensus reality says magic doesn't exist. When sleepers see undeniable magic it conflicts with that and damages them: the mage gets fucked over by the backlash and the sleeper wanders off and then tends to rationalize or forget what they saw. In a similar way, if the explanation was the magic of world of darkness' knows the rules of the world are 'vamps aren't meant to be reproducible on camera' then there being fuckery and backlash against it happening is not unreasonable. But fine, I've used up enough of this thread talking about this idea. I just thought it was a better idea to give a vague justification for why vampires are only hanging on to the battle for the masquerade instead of having actually lost it.
>>96557878Wraith has the Fog and Werewolf has Delirium why not something like that for starters
>>96557920That and any recording gets fucked because Cain
>>96557878I think it's better to have a strong justification that's tied into the setting at a root level and works well with it rather than anything half-baked. I've had to play in many games before where the GM clearly paid attention to nothing but his "plot" and did not try to maintain a more cohesive world, and they've always ended in failure. Commercially that was a big problem for Nwod as well when it first released. Too few details, too little justification, too little actual thought and work put into tying things together in a coherent way.
>>96557931Tremere Ritual has always worked in the past, literally level 10 Banish Big Brother
>>96557405Just because you don't have Twitter and TikTok doesn't mean you're going to live in pre-history, zoomer.>People want to play urban horror games in the realNo one wants to play Vampire: TikTok and Instagram Edition. That's why V5 is a colossal failure.
>>96557931A good solution would be to bite the bullet and just start worldbuilding. I mean, Batman already has Gotham and it works there.
>>96551887rave/goth/industrial aesthetics became irrelevant, should pander more to dark aesthetic of e-kids from TikTok and Instagram instead.
>>96558173by the time the got a book out those kids will be on to something different. honestly better off trying to revive goth
>>9655820090s nostalgia and a single major movie to kick it off, a perfect storm bound to happen
>>96554954Unlikely given the risk. Eventually you are going to get overexcited and kill someone and you would prefer it be a stranger since the joke that is your humanity is held together with duct-tape and the few mortal relationships you are able to maintain as the vampiric equivalent of touching grass. Players like to play their vampires as human and in control, but that is not VtM. You are an animal, a beast, a monster. You have a thin veneer of humanity that you clutch as tightly as you possibly can, but the propensity to snap is always there. You hold the humans around you that can actually draw some feeling from your cold unbeating heart only as close as you dare, cause it only takes one bad day.
>>96551892chechenyas are a endangered species. 10 years from now when theyre all extinct they're inclusion in lore would not make any sense
>>96551887Punk died
>>96558846>You are an animal, a beast, a monster. You have a thin veneer of humanity that you clutch as tightly as you possibly can, but the propensity to snap is always there. You hold the humans around you that can actually draw some feeling from your cold unbeating heart only as close as you dare, cause it only takes one bad day.I'm sorry but that sounds gay as fuck. Vampire power fantasy is way more fun and has much broader appeal.
>>96558846>>96560634Both of these (solid) takes need not be opposites.VtM can 100% be played with that monster clinging to humanity feel while also allowing for very OP power fantasies. Nta btw.
>>96551887They ruined the metaplot which is the only thing anyone has ever cared about in VtM. Might as well play VtR since at least the system isn't dogshit.Also Gen Z finds everything cringe except their brain rot garbage.
Autofire rules in the core book are garbage. Spraying mortals with an uzi feels less satisfying. This is important to me.
>>96555823>character creation with 2 points pools 1 for human and 1 post embrace>rulebook 2 columns and b&w art>drop the kitchen sink 'extended universe' setting, there's vampires and hunters >rules for both, this is easy now cause character creation has human and embrace phase >drop generations and clans, power level is given by the number of years passed from embrace till now>orgs (new clan type shit) and coteries should have a clear purpose (no more we control everything that instantly goes away the second you ask the GM)>rules for social interactions and domain level playI would drop the dice pool also and this would be my ideal vampire game, no longer VtM I guess but I think it deserves a merited torpor.
>>96555823Just play 20th anniversary dark ages ruleset with pre-V5 lore.
>>96558855>chechenyas are a endangered species.check the triple dubsAlso their population is growing (russian one is declining)
>>96553201Vampire has never been a combat heavy game
>>96551887>We want the Antifa audience
>>96562300>v20why would you do that tho
>>96562707I play games to not be reminded of real life shit. What's the spiritual successor to Vampire The Masquerade if there is one?
>>96562707>NO FASCISTS ALLOWED IN OUR COOL KIDS CLUB>anyways so vampire clans are obviously pretty fascist by our own ridiculously loose definition of the term but it's okay because we're lefties so it doesn't count when we roleplay lolfucking insane to me how fagged out White Wolf has become
>>96564305White Wolf has been intentionally using female pronouns just to tweak people since its very earliest publications, anon. VtM and White Wolf generally have always been at the extreme liberal end of pop politics. It's one of the things that made it popular in the 90s. Counter culture, at the time, was liberal. There were no alt-right or whatever. And those issues were won, which is why supporting those things today (pro-choice, feminist, gay marriage, environmental consciousness) are centrist. In the 90s these were hot-button issues and moderates were not on the side of them. Nowadays you'd be labeled an fundamentalist to oppose any of them. And White Wolf's games have consistently stayed on the liberal edge of popular politics--just like it always was.Really White Wolf has stayed in the same position on the spectrum of liberal to conservative that it was always on. It's the center of that spectrum that shifted--not the game.
>>96552083
>>96564409>White Wolf has been intentionally using female pronouns just to tweak people since its very earliest publicationsUsing female pronouns in abstract tense is supposed to be offensive? To whom?>Really White Wolf has stayed in the same position on the spectrum of liberal to conservative that it was always on.What complete and utter tripe. Old White Wolf didn't give a fuck what people found offensive (that's what 90s counterculture was all about, shaking off stupid politically correct norms). It was here to tell a story and give people the tools to run games in a world of the supernatural, and real world politics didn't matter. The fact of the matter is that nobody at White Wolf today is the same people that built it in the first place. The studio has been hollowed out by political activist parasites who want to try to push some bizarre gaslit narrative that this is what White Wolf was always about. No, it most certainly was not about this trash. It used to be a proudly politically disinterested franchise, and as soon as someone else got their hands on it, it suddenly veered fully into identity politics to the extent of peeling away every mildly controversial aspect of its own worldbuilding and gameplay to appeal to a vocal minority of unhinged extremist retards. It's the same Weekend at Bernies zombie franchise shit that happened to Star Wars, 40k, and everything else that was passed on to the next generation. It just turned out the next generation is a bunch of nepotistic trust fund Millenials who drank the koolaid so hard at college that they legitimately believe everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fascist.
>>96564527>Using female pronouns in abstract tense is supposed to be offensive? To whom?The people who threw fits about it and called it gay satanism in the 90s, anon.
>>96564538>The people who threw fits about it and called it gay satanism in the 90s, anon.That's about as credible as nu-White Wolf complaining about the supposed horde of fascists in the hobby.
>>96564549I can provide you information, anon. No skin off my back whether you choose to learn.
>>96564551I'm sure you have a collection of posts from angry neckbeards. Maybe a news article or two about an angry fundamentalist pastor who burned Vampire the Masquerade books at his church after decrying their contents as satanism. What you don't have is evidence that this perspective was in any way a majority attitude or a significant backlash. The use of feminine pronouns in abstract tense goes back at least to Shakespeare, facing zero backlash because nobody gives a fuck what pronouns are used for an undefined mannequin in the English language. This is just like all the rest of the narrative you're pushing: complete and utter gaslighting hogwash.
>>96564575k
>>96564527>Using female pronouns in abstract tense is supposed to be offensive? To whom?To regular people who expect "He" to be used in abstract tense. Actively chosing to go against the default expected gender in abstract tense is an intentionally politically provocative move, since if someone weren't politically minded, it literally wouldn't come to mind.Most people just read it and went "Whatever, some people leaning left wrote this game, it's still fine."Now, were lefties a bit more reasonable and tasteful(ignoring werewolf) in the 90s? Yes. Are modern lefties now ridiculously distasteful and brain rotted? Yes. Does this mean that old white wolf was apolitical and new white wolf is somehow differently political? No. White Wolf games always had a lefty-political, anti-conservative anti-Christian pro-lgbt bent to them. Mage:The Ascension was literally about being postmodern revolutionaries where reality is literally defined by consensus and your job is to change the consensus reality to redefine what reality is. Reality itself is *literally* a social construct in Mage:The Ascension.
>>96562707My fucking christ the fuck. I can feel the horned glasses, dyed blue hair and abundant facial piercings in this. I'm about as left as it's possible to be (i.e. left somewhere which is not the US) and I want to curbstomp this person for the second hand embarassment I've just been forced to experience. >After all, the player characters are something unique and special -- something fascists cannot abide.I think this person thinks fascists are real life vampires, and if a fascist bothers you in the stret you should hold up a rainbow flag - no, not a rainbow flag, something more niche like an asexual pride flag - and pose smugly as the fascist screeches and retreats into the nearest storm drain for shelter.This is not the first similar section I've seen screenshotted. There's nothing wrong or crazy about putting in a section of general advice. Explain how some players are going to be asocial weirdos and you need to learn to not tolerate intolerance to avoid drama, and at the same time you need to understand that the point of this is to play a game and characters can have evil viewpoins and this doesn't make the players Mecha Hitler. So why the fuck is every single one I've seen the absolute cringiest thing ever? Can people not give advice if they can't use it as a vessel to virtue signal?
>>96564623>To regular people who expect "He" to be used in abstract tense. Actively chosing to go against the default expected gender in abstract tense is an intentionally politically provocative move,Literally to whom? Who would be provoked by this? >White Wolf games always had a lefty-political, anti-conservative anti-Christian pro-lgbt bent to them. That's a stretch anon. OWoD was very anti-political to a fault. Two entire splats revolve around the idea that God is real, the events of the Bible are true, and you play as the broken and demented angels that failed in their rebellion or as humans who sinned so severely they were cursed to be immortal bloodsuckers as a result. In both splats, God is not portrayed as evil, he's real, he's actually a force for good, and you're playing as monsters who suffer for their sins but have a chance at redemption. The culmination of the entire VtM splat line is Gehenna, where each scenario involves seeking atonement and forgiveness from God to defeat the Antediluvians (or getting Caine/Lilith to defeat them for you). There's tranny jokes in the books, mockery of mental illness, LGBTQ are mentioned but never treated like they're special, a respect for Christianity and its precepts (but of course condemnation of 'bad' Christians, which was commonplace in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), and I could go on. The political alignment you claim to have existed was nowhere to be found in OWoD. The first edition of NWoD did bring some of the things you're talking about into play, most obviously the fact that NWoD very plainly states God isn't real and strongly plays into more left-aligned ideologies with the Forsaken vs. Pure being basically the furry LGBTQ community versus an army of Neo Nazis. But the studio had already changed dramatically by this point.
>>96564673>as a vessel to virtue signalWas your rant just now "virtue signaling?" Consider that the author in the screencap probably felt exactly the same way that you do now. So why'd you make that post?
>>96564673Realized a second too late I had the perfect image for this.>>96564690The problem with this logic is I could reflect it in turn back to you, and every communication from now on will become this.
>>96564703>The problem with this logic is I could reflect it in turn back to you, and every communication from now on will become this.You and that author are both using identity politics to dehumanize and express anger at the people you identify as "other." I'm trying to connect with you and teach you some empathy. It'd do you good to reflect a little, anon.
>>96564690People virtue signal to get social clout, and virtue signalling anonymously gets you no social clout. So I don't think he's virtue signalling.
>>96564745I don't think he is, either.
>>96562097I like the initial suggestions, but dropping the generation and the suggestions after that, I do not agree with. V5 already diminishes the role of generation. Now it pretty much only determines starting blood potency and maximum blood potency, which is fine. Incentivises diablerie, which thematically on point for the whole road to hell shtick.
>>96564676>Two entire splats revolve around the idea that God is real, the events of the Bible are trueOnly in a very strained, timey-wimey sense in which everything and anything is true depending on how you look at the multi-faceted cosmos and the most ultimately true God is a perennialist monad that's at the core of all of the traditions that have a vague slice of the truth, making Christianity *not* exclusively true, and the entire point of Christianity is that it *is* exclusively true.If oVamp was based on the premise that Christianity was true and that Christian God cursed Cain to be a Vampire, then the True Faith stat would only work with Christianity. But it doesn't, and the canonical counter-example is a yuppie turning a vampire with true faith in capitalism with his bank card.That, along with the oMage problem you ignored, is subjectivism and agnostic perennialist "everyone can be right" baked hardcore into the blood and bones of oWoD.
>>96564673>So why the fuck is every single one I've seen the absolute cringiest thing ever? Can people not give advice if they can't use it as a vessel to virtue signal?If I remember that time period correctly, there was basically a witch hunt for "bad" elements amongst the creative teams by SJWs in the industry after a series of controversies occurred. Every single major TTRPG publisher was trying to look pretty and hide or replace all their older edgy stuff. The point of these taking up page space was to virtue signal so that the team wouldn't become a target of the SJW witch hunters.
>>96562707>Fascism in PlayI had a /pol/ phase in my life. Wish I could say that someone talked some sense into me, but really I just woke up one day and realized it wasn't right. I can say with certainty that the writers behind the words have never met a fascist. Nor would they know how to deal with one if a crew of skinheads walked up to them and revealed who they are. >"we urge you to put this book down and call someone who you trust to talk about where you went so wrong in your life."This is exactly how you do NOT try to reach people who are deep in the /pol/-hole. If anything this contempt will only make the fascists that occupy their heads like Germany did to France dig deeper down the hole. There is no bigger fuel for fascism then left wing hypocrisy and contempt. You don't begin the rehabilitation of fascists by being contemptuous. But I don't think these people can comprehend such a concept. because to them "fascists" aren't people that may have had a rough time in life and ended up with the wrong crowd. That's usually how it is with these 'fascists' these days.Tying this back to VTM. It is disheartening seeing dogma taking precedence over product quality.
>>96564968>his is exactly how you do NOT try to reach peopleThere is absolutely nothing that penetrates identity politics except the person changing. There is no version of a blurb in a ttrpg that could.
>>96564784>the entire point of Christianity is that it *is* exclusively true.I'm gonna stop you there, because Demon: The Fallen does state flat out that Christianity is exclusively true. All the godlike entities in the setting like the spirits of the Garou, they are stated to just be Angels governing aspects of reality at God's command. Yes, the other splats can argue otherwise, but Demon came out after them and gives explanations for pretty much all of them. >If oVamp was based on the premise that Christianity was true and that Christian God cursed Cain to be a Vampire, then the True Faith stat would only work with Christianity. But it doesn't, and the canonical counter-example is a yuppie turning a vampire with true faith in capitalism with his bank card.Caine is a real character. Caine is the source of all vampires. He was taught everything he knows by Lilith. Lilith was created by God. Caine was cursed by God. God intervenes in Gehenna if the players truly repent, and he destroys the Antediluvians once and for all. It's all there, anon. Christianity is explicitly true in OWoD. True Faith just has the funny property of working on any sort of belief system because human belief is a source of power.>That, along with the oMage problem you ignoredI didn't ignore it. I gave counterexamples. But what you're ignoring is the Consensus is not absolute, it's just a magic spell enforced by the Technocracy in an attempt to wipe out all supernatural elements of the setting, though of course it fails at that purpose. Even the magic of Mages is derived from God according to Demon: The Fallen. It's the latent potential of humanity that God gifted them with, the same potential that Lucifer taught Lilith to unleash, which is why Lilith became an immortal demigoddess. In fact, it turns out that the ancient Mages were taught to actualize their magick by Lucifer as well coaxing out those talents to arm humanity to face the Fallen that would eventually break free from Hell.
>>96564998>I'm gonna stop you there, because Demon: The Fallen does state flat out that Christianity is exclusively true.Nope. Go try to find your quote. We'll wait. The demons BELIEVE that the judeo-christian god is real. But the book explicitly states that this isn't confirmed.
>>96564990Maybe you're right. To be honest I don't really know how to reach a fascist. I think the tragic thing is that the writers of that segment most likely mean well.
>>96565010>Nope. Go try to find your quote. We'll wait. The demons BELIEVE that the judeo-christian god is real.My god man, read the damn DtF books. They even give the whole history of Lucifer, Paradise Lost style antihero and everything, and that he's been working behind the scenes the entire time since he was struck down from Heaven to help humanity by encouraging it to gather strength. He's been encouraging every splat since the dawn of time to build powerful secret societies that can oppose the Fallen. >But the book explicitly states that this isn't confirmed.The Core DtF rulebook avoids confirming anything by setting the entire thing in a conversation to leave gaps of lore and room to improvise if a Storyteller wants to steer away from Christian elements. The Gamemaster's Guide and the other expansion books drop the formalities and just play into the Christianity behind it all, including talking about Lucifer as mentioned before. Even if Demon the Fallen didn't exist, there's still Vampire which explicitly confirms the existence and supremacy of God through Caine, Lilith, and Gehenna's events. There's no way of arguing around this; OWoD was fine with embracing Christianity as a setting for its games, even encouraging it as the default premise for DtF.
>>96565058Still waitin on the quote you claim is in there.
>>96565062>literally the entire post of evidence>but muh quoteNice to know fedora tippers are still autistic brainlets, lol
>>96562707Fascists are barely even a real fucking thing. The sooner the left drop this idiotic gaslight that only works on themselves, the sooner they'll start to regain whatever semblance of respect they might be able to pull from normal society again.
>>96565072You claimed: >>96564998>Demon: The Fallen does state flat out that Christianity is exclusively trueWhere?
>>96565076In the books. The ones I just talked about. If you bothered reading my posts, you would have seen that. Hyperfocusing onto some kind of quote that only you asserted to exist is typical fedora tipper behavior. But you're basically just shifting goalposts at this point; first you claimed OWoD was anti-Christian, then you tried to argue Christianity is only one part of OWoD, now you're trying to argue it may not be the only truth in OWoD despite DtF and VtM literally framing it as such. If all you have left is the fact that Storytellers are encouraged to come up with their own interpretations of splatbooks, you have nothing, because every single splat in World of Darkness encourages Storytellers to make their own decisions about what is and isn't true.
>>96565099>In the books.Where?They're all online.
>>96565099>But you're basically just shifting goalposts at this point; first you claimed OWoD was anti-Christian,Nope. I'm asking you for a source to back up this claim: >>96564998>Demon: The Fallen does state flat out that Christianity is exclusively trueYou have failed to provide a source because the claim is false.
>>96565103That's my line, friendo. They're all online, so you can get to reading about the fantastic adventures of Caine and Lilith and God's last miracle of salvation in Gehenna. Or if you want, Lucifer trying to save the world and the Demons arisen from Hell trying to end it in the Storyteller's Companion for DtF which drops hard facts to clarify the setting for the Storyteller, including that yes, God is real, Demons are fallen angels from Hell, and yes, Lucifer is real, too.
>>96565123Neat!Where?
>>96565108You're not going to salvage your argument by cherrypicking and twisting my words when you lost the argument already, friendo. By all means, keep pushing those goalposts back as far as you can. I already told you what books to read to educate yourself. But it does make me glad to buttblast yet another retarded atheist who thinks World of Darkness was his pet.
>>96565130There's this thing called reading. You should try it some time. But given you struggle to read even my short posts, it's pretty clear you wouldn't last past the first paragraph of Gehenna or Storyteller's Companion.
>>96565142>your argumentMy argument?You claimed that a book contained a quote. Produce it.
>>96565149Neat! So where's the quote?
>>96564409>VtM and White Wolf generally have always been at the extreme liberal end of pop politics.The politics of White Wolf were those of the sub-culture and counter-culture of the 90s. Basically: "Think for yourself, never trust the system. Rage against the machine." What they did was genuinely transgressive against social conventions and pushing boundaries of tabletop RPG because things like DnD were sanitized and censored to appease the pearl clutching mob who demanded it.Modern White Wolf, in this sense, is the opposite of the original White Wolf. Instead of pushing boundaries, they try to sanitize their content. Instead of being counter-culture, they openly try to suck up the establishment. Instead of preaching for critical thinking of every actor in a political climate, they demand adherence to a cargo cult set of rules of conduct. As many people have said, White Wolf became exactly what they were fighting. White Wolf was killed by the people who pushed these things after Paradox, a soulless corporation, bought them and then after the international fiasco.The people who killed White Wolf are now seeing the fruits of their behavior, because a new Satanic Panic has started and censorship all over media and cancellation is being used against them. Obviously this is a bad thing, but is serving to awake many minds that really thought being the establishment was fighting the establishment.
>>96565151You're the only one who said anything about a quote. Not that it really salvages your argument either way, this is more like you giving up on the argument the moment you were presented with real evidence.
>>96565161>You're the only one who said anything about a quote.Here was your statement: >>96564998>Demon: The Fallen does state flat out that Christianity is exclusively trueSo where's the quote that "states flat out that Christianity is exclusively true?"
>>96565165>>96565157I didn't mention a quote. You are the only one who said there is a 'quote'. I'm sorry that you are so mentally challenged you can't follow a very simple post from start to finish and instead turn to trying to take sentences out of context because you have nothing left. I detailed where this information of Christianity being confirmed comes from in the very same post as that sentence, which is the DtF sourcebooks and the Gehenna book for VtM. If your brain wasn't stuck in a broken loop of being wrong, you could have already started reading those books and broadening your knowledge of the game.But since it's clear at this point you're just going to argue in circles against a cherrypicked sentence, removed from all context, rather than address any of the actual points I made, I'll leave you to it, anon. It's also okay to just close the tab and walk away from the computer for a while to stop being so booty-wounded that you were wrong about World of Darkness.
>>96565203So Demon: The Fallen does not "state flat out that Christianity is exclusively true."So, in >>96564998, you were lying.Thank you for finally admitting it, anon.
>>96564305>has becomeYou have clearly never read any of the original material. They were always like this.
>>96565211It does state flat out that Christianity is true. I already explained what the Storyteller's Guide explains.>All the godlike entities in the setting like the spirits of the Garou, they are stated to just be Angels governing aspects of reality at God's command. Yes, the other splats can argue otherwise, but Demon came out after them and gives explanations for pretty much all of them. >Even the magic of Mages is derived from God according to Demon: The Fallen. It's the latent potential of humanity that God gifted them with, the same potential that Lucifer taught Lilith to unleash, which is why Lilith became an immortal demigoddess. In fact, it turns out that the ancient Mages were taught to actualize their magick by Lucifer as well coaxing out those talents to arm humanity to face the Fallen that would eventually break free from Hell.>They even give the whole history of Lucifer, Paradise Lost style antihero and everything, and that he's been working behind the scenes the entire time since he was struck down from Heaven to help humanity by encouraging it to gather strength. He's been encouraging every splat since the dawn of time to build powerful secret societies that can oppose the Fallen. The really funny thing is that you're not the first fedora tipper to throw a shitfit about DtF. The game is despised by the same crowds that adore Werewolf and Mage because it hurts their fee-fees that their setting was compartmentalized into just more facets of the Christian cosmology of DtF. It's just weird that you're so determined to disregard reality when DtF is despised by everyone in your camp for being precisely what it is.
>>96565252>It does state flat out that Christianity is true.Neat!Where?
>>96565228No, no, I'm quite sure that White Wolf was not putting 3 pages of "fascism bad mkay, trannies good mkay, if you don't like that don't buy our game" before every book they published.
>>96565260Ah, so you HAVEN'T read them. It is okay to admit when you are wrong.
>>96565275Let me double check my VtR 1e book introduction. Oh, yep, nope, you're full of shit.
Reddit moment.
>>96555317It is a roll at the beginning of the night. No one knows what you are talking about.
>>96556296>everything I don't like has failedrolled my eyes so hard they almost got stuck that way
>>96565258>Where's the quote! Where's the quote! Where's the quote!
>>965562961999 zuumur here.Were the 90s really better even without the nostalgia glasses on for VTM?
>>96565301You claimed:>>96565252>It does state flat out that Christianity is true.and >>96564998>The Fallen does state flat out that Christianity is exclusively true.Where?
>>96565303Anything is better than the doomscroll hell that we're in now, and the 90s was a pretty authentically good time.
>>96565303VtM was better before they wrote the mysteries out of it, and wikis collated them all for easy access.
>>96556598I mean, at that point you are just relegating VtM to being a historical game set in an ever-distant past. And there are plenty of games that marry themselves to a specific historical period. Even subgames within VtM itself, but when I think WoD I think, "current year with hidden supernaturals" and that is what I want to play.
>>96565329For the 99th time, just because you're not using Twitter doesn't mean you have to go back 200 years in the past. Even in 2008 social media wasn't so prevalent.
>>96565348I miss myspace. It was so exciting and new!
>>96565307Well the 90s were a pretty good time for me as I could shit myself and my parents would change my diapers for me, no questions asked. >>96565310Like what kind of mysteries got written out?What can I do to not be part of the problem that older traditional gamers expect when a zoomer comes to the table?
>>96564575>Satanic panic wasn't a widespread thing anon. it was all in your head anon. rightoids didn't try to destroy the hobby, anon. I am one of you, anon. I pinky swear I won't try to burn it all to the ground.. this time.
>>96565359>Like what kind of mysteries got written out?In the 90s when we were playing, most people had the main rulebook and maybe a couple sourcebooks that they particularly liked. To learn the lore, you had to read these. And they provided an incomplete picture. There were seven clans and then other clans mentioned sometimes, but nothing specific about their histories. The Book of Nod, when it came out, literally got its own shelf in Hot Topic. The backstories of the clans, the antedeluvians, the secret orders and histories and everything that happened and what gehenna REALLY was and all of it. You were working with ridiculously incomplete information and you and your players all speculated on "what it could mean."Now there's literally no corner of the lore that you're more than three clicks away from. It's just not magical, any more.
I saw an interview with Mark Rein Hagen and he said he created Vampire as a peaceful game, where you have to avoid conflict as much as possible with those 7 clans trying to coexist with the human world without revealing themselves.
>>96565360>Satanic panic wasn't a widespread thing anon.Yes. It literally wasn't. I was there. It was some Baptist churches throwing a hissy fit over Pokemon and Harry Potter and nobody else gave a fuck.
>>96564968It isn't there to reach people. It is there to keep poltards out of the community. There are very few designers that want the taint of having to be game that rightoids think is based. No one wants the headaches they create, the fights they pick, the people they alienate and they definition don't want to spend all their time having to put out, "This isn't who we are" apologism for their community. And they can avoid all of it by sticking stuff like this in there and getting right-wing communities to call it a woke game. You lose nothing but headaches.
>>96565418>cites shit from when the Satanic panic was in its nadir and basically overThere it is. You are too young to understand what happened.
>>96565421Yeah man, inclusivity is based. Make sure to include every letter of the sexuality and gender alphabet soup! But inclusivity ends at political allegiances of course, so 90% of the world population is banned from our games because they don't share our unhinged trust fund kiddie Millenial beliefs.
>>96565418My neighbor wasn't allowed to play Super Mario Bros. 3 because literally his church told parents that it contained demonic imagery. He musta been maybe 12? His dad had bought him a .22 for his birthday.
>>96565421>>96565160
>>96565463We read what you posted, anon. It just wasn't very good. You constructed an argument to try to pretend "well it wasn't REALLY liberal." Bro, we were there. It was.
>>96565430>i-it was already over! Or maybe it was always a vocal minority of religious extremists that did not represent the majority of the Western world but had their voices amplified by the mass media taking them way too seriously. Hold on, let me google news articles from the 80s about the rock and roll Satanic panic... oh, nobody took the claims of satanism in rock music seriously? Rock and roll and heavy metal remained top genres of music despite the 'mass hysteria sweeping the nation'? Hmm... no, no, that can't be true. Clearly it was a witch hunt the likes of which made the Spanish Inquisition envious. It's just that the American Inquisition was so smart and so powerful they were able to cover up all the interrogations and killings of suspected heavy metal and Dungeons and Dragons enjoyers.
>>96565449Seriously. These fucking toddlers have never lived in a world where the church has held dominant sway over the culture. They can't even imagine how fucking everywhere it was, how powerful it was, how in control even the most random podunk preachers over their local communities and how organized they were across their denominations.
>>96565478My town was Mormons. They were all really nice, though. They were fun to hang out with, they had good toys, and I even remember fondly going to "lock ups" which was the only kind of sleepover they were allowed to have.
>>96565469>WeWhy are you using a collective noun to talk about yourself and why are you so defensive?
>>96565489Read the comments and notice me and another dude I'm guessing is in his mid forties are being nostalgic, at the moment.
>>96565469>it was.OWoD and NWoD 1e were politically agnostic at best. There aren't even serious references to real world politics, at best a few milquetoast jokes here and there. You're pushing some kind of bizarre revisionism, I guess to try and justify the insane shit like in this post >>96562707 as being therefore perfectly normal and not a massive red flag showing just how much brainrot has infested White Wolf.
>>96565500Alright, man.
>>96565478Dude, what fucking world are you from? England circa 1650?
>>96565478>Anon apparently lived among the Puritan settlers of pre-Independence America
>>96565485I never met any mormon communities. And hey the regular communities were a lot like that too.. as long as you more or less fit the mold. If you didn't though.. shit got dire very quick. Communities were close then, so there could be a lot of great community support, kept too much to your, didn't have conventional interests, you could very easily end up a pariah in a society where that actually meant something.
>>96565529Oh I remember getting the shit bullied outa me and the non-stop insult was always "fag." The early 90s kinda sucked for scrawny, dorky kids. But VtM and goth were always there for me.
>>96565421> You lose nothing but headaches.You lose out on an immune system against many forms of basic human decency, which was already greatly compromised even before all this stupid virtue signalling came into play.I've attended V:tR LARP a decade or so ago. And that type of environment enabled a couple of extremely ugly and moustache-bearing lesbians to make out in front of everyone because they justified it "In character" making countless people uncomfortable but you couldn't say anything because to say anything would be homophobic.They also left me alone with a gay guy feeding me drinks and trying to get me to come to his house. I thought that he was just being nice because I was new. But it turns out I was being treated by everyone there as fresh young meat to be fed into the gay old guard.Maybe it's just because LARPers are all horny fucks. But I've been around in RPG communities enough to know how cancerous they get when there's incestuous groupthink, both rightoid and leftoid groupthink, but at least the rightoids aren't trying to turn every public event into a sex thing. Actively chosing to pre-emptively alienate one political wing means that you have chosen the path of public sex garbage.
>>96565541Anon... VtM larp has always, and I mean ALWAYS, been about theater kids getting laid.That's why it was so popular.
>>96565550tfw I'm autistic enough to just want to actually have some fun playing an RPG while also walking around.
>>96565541>We are the defenders of human decency.Oh for fucks sake, take that "democracy dies in darkness" shit and get the fuck out of here you insufferable, self-righteous faggot. You are here because you like to play pretend, same as the rest of us. Stop pretending this is some crusade.
>>96565562Sorry. Someone shoulda warned you. The whole blood drinking thing? Absolutely an excuse to steal your mom's wine and kiss the girls and boys as bigga rejects as you were.
>>96565496I never used the word "liberal" in that post. I however used the term "critical thinking" something that can be find all over the original oWOD books and was encouraged. As the other anon pointed out, Paradox/nu-WW is consumed by brainrot and they spout exactly the opposite of critical thinking. They demand compliance and obedience like some sort of cult. Even if you claim "you were there" we can just go back to the original material and pick stuff like that Skinhead archetype character that was included in the original 2e version. Which would never make its way in a product like V5. Neither would pic-related.
>>96565596Sure anon.
>>96565567>I'll take things I never said for 1000, Trebeck!
>>96565599>Anon gets buttbroken after facing the original VtMAnon...
>>96565516>>96565526Televangelists were the proto cancel culture, calling everything as being demonic.When I was a kid, i remember a friend saying that his sister had to burn her hellokitty stuff, because the owner was a woman who sold her daughter to satan.
>>96552083/thread
why /tg/ prefers to discuss politics? I was expecting more anons talking about oWoD
>>96565842Because, unfortunately, politics has overtly invaded tabletop RPGs and you have to talk about it in order to talk about how RPGs have degraded in quality.
>>96551887You making this same old tired thread again with the same exact comments following. Do we really have the same threads for YEARS on end. People say generals are cancer and they still post these same topics over and over agan. Just make a general at this point.
>>96565696>proto cancel cultureNo, that shit is older than you think it is.Also, with Christians, the good thing was that they didn't change what was politically correct every year since it was based on an old book.
>>96565842>>96565856oWoD is too political to not talk about politics when talking about it.
>>96565858Yes, how dare the OP talk about Traditional Games?piece of shit, he's ruined the place!!!!
>>96565858Look man, if you want original discussions, enthusiasm, and general joy and optimism about the hobby, you need a change of scenery. tg is for nostalgia, good ol' days, and bitching about how things are different than they used to be. This is the nursing home, not a college campus.
>>96565978>>96566009The discussion isnt even about the fucking game. Its just culture war this and sjw that. Just a fucking special snowflake echo chamber screaming about a game nobody played and nobody cares.
>>96552083You say that like 2020s culture isn’t still.
>>96566192Again. Welcome to tg. We are a bunch of bitter, divorced guys pushing 40 and discovering the joys of back pain and cultural irrelevance. This is what you get here.
>>96558200This. Nightreign putting Bring Me To Life in one of their trailers was when they should’ve struck.
>>96566233>back painI’m a fucking genius. I realised that even if you’re shit at exercise, it’s an incredible investment for the point of life when you fags’ bodies are falling apart because you didn’t breathe hard and haul weight enough to tell your body it’s not okay to start falling apart.
>>96551887I have a suspicion that White Wolf games, by and large, were never good.The success of the video game was a fluke, popular in spite of the mechanics not because of them, and the barely enduring popularity of the TRPGs is 99% wistful nostalgia by people in their 30s and 40s who were just the right age at the right time when the books came out.
>>96564676> Who would be provoked by this I found it insulting. Rather than choosing to use a non-discriminatory form of address (neutral they or alternating by example character) they chose to exclude their male customers for political brownie points. Not as bad as when RPG publishers actively and openly insult the customer, but still not great. I'd care more if the gameplay was better though.
>>96566422Trolling.
>>96565960You could always stick to dark ages.
>>96566233Some of us are still married. But most of us srill seem to not like current TTRPG industry trends.
>>96566438Think what you'd like. It's a juvenile political stunt, mildly insulting your customers. Maybe they were making a legitimate point in 1991, but not by the time V20 came out.>>96566276I think they mostly got popular because people liked Anne Rice vampire novels, and gen-x goths and edgy nu-metal-heads. I like the setting for dark ages, but the game mechanics still aren't great.
>>96566444I mean. No shit. Bitching about changing is half of getting old. I don't like current trends in music, I don't like current trends in video games. I don't like the shows they are making. I don't like the movies they are making. I don't like the comedians that are popular now. And you know why? They aren't making them for me anymore. I am aging into cultural irrelevance and so are most of the people reading this. I am no longer the target demo and that was inevitable. It happened to my parents, their parents, and so on to times immemorial.All I am doing is pointing out to this ostensibly young person that this is an aging website with an aging board, filled with aging people, who are all going through the slow grind of cultural irrelevance together. Whatever this place might have used to be, it is not a place of creativity or optimism anymore. It is a place to remember, mourn, and cope. If they are looking for anything other than complaining here, they would do well to move along and stop wasting their time.
>>96566472Okay, yeah, accurate summary. This board is not what it was in 2010 (around when I would say it peaked for thread quality), and the posters are not who we were in 2010. (And even in 2010, a bunch of us were not interested in the newer RPG design trends, favouring older games).I still like a bunch of indie videogames, but the AAAs have gone to shit. It doesn't seem to be just us old guys who think that though. I haven't liked domestic music trends since I was 14 or 15, so I'm not a good judge on that one.And fuck this decade's Anglosphere TV is just not good. And Anime is all just the 'first arc of the book done as an aevertisement' crap now. I feel you there.I heard somewhere TTRPGs are also an aging hobby, and the average player is like 30. Dunno how accurate that is, but it sounds plausible.
>>96562530I know but V5's take is to just ignore it entirely.
>>96555497Which was Chronicles of Darkness and not the V5 reboot. So anon is just being a retard faggot.Generally V5 has gotten better since its launch. I dont know when exactly, or why, but all that LARP shit got thrown out, the weird photos of IRL people replaced with actual art, and a lot of the retarded concepts have been simmered down on (e.g. The Gehenna Crusade and the Sabbat going awol)Actually the general quality of the books has just risen. Comparing say, Tattered Facade, to the core release book is just sad. And I dont know whether its because the recent books have been covering certain less realistic subjects (like vampire cults and blood magic networks) but I havent spotted any IRL political bullshit. Like how Chicago by Night had a bunch of BLM and Antifa shoutouts. Now lets go into whats still wrong with V5.>Discipline pruningIts crowding disciplines too much. Cramming Obtenebration and Necromancy together just cuts off both powersets legroom. Blood Sorcery has got like 2 or 3 different subsets shoved in now (The Muslims, the Tremere and Tzimisce Koldunism). Likewise turning Vicissitude into an amalgam in Proteam is just insulting. >The HecataI get where you were going with this. I do. But its still stupid. You took like 5 bloodlines/clans and jammed them all in together because 'hey they're all corpsefuckers right?'. >FeedingThey've put too much importance on it. Yes, its a vital part of Vampire life. Hell it should be the thing their whole existence focuses on. But its not. This is a political game, not a hunting sim. How it seems to go it players do a couple of feeds, then unless you throw major spanners in the works they just start glossing over it. Do we really need to start every Sopranos episode off with Tony inhaling a plate of gabagool? No. We know he does it, and a scene of him going to the Deli or arguing with Chris over the last bit is nice now and then, but its not what we're here for.
>>96566631>Generally V5 has gotten better since its launch. I dont know when exactly, or why,the original core rulebook writers moved on to shit on Werewolf and Hunter in H5 and W5 so people who like VtM could go back to writing it
>>96566906That...yeah I can see that. There's a definite change somewhere after the Anarch/Camarilla sourcebooks. I hadnt bothered reading the H5 or W5 stuff yet so I had no idea what its quality was like.
>>96553481Why do people keep siding with some shit islamist hellhole third world government over this non-issue? What's remarkable is how quickly Paradox folded and took a self scourging stance, instead of just telling them "it's an imaginary game about vampires. Sorry you feel personally attacked bruh." Like what was Chechnya going to do?A real lesson in never ever admitting guilt when someone attempts to cancel you. Now idiots constantly talk like White Wolf did anything particularly outrageous or wrong. Wonder what they would have said if Germany took offense to Totentanz back in the 90s.
>>96566906Who specifically?
>>96567684I don't think anons are siding with Chechens goatfuckers. They're just pointing out that WW wanted to be edgy but unlike original WW they were not prepared to take the heat. Paradox killed the company after the incident.
>>96565421>You lose nothing but headaches.Looks like to me they just lost a shit ton of money cause VTM is in flames because they tried to pander hard to trannies only to realise the closest thing to a TTRPG those people play is running an RP account on Twitter and Bluesky
>>96568146Link me their financials.
>>96564784>and the canonical counter-example is a yuppie turning a vampire with true faith in capitalism with his bank card.???Where?
>>96564998>All the godlike entities in the setting like the spirits of the Garou, they are stated to just be Angels governing aspects of reality at God's command.>WtA's main villain is a powerful spirit that went evil and now seeks to corrupt and shit up the world>its spirit minions can possess people>its mortal minions wormed wyrmed? their way into positions of authority and seek to create a totalitarian sóy state>rituals are used to call powerful good spirits for aid>bad guys get mauled by the animalsIs WtA That Hideous Strength: The Game?
