>>96592331
>we

>>96592331
Also stop evading filters, you prancing la-la homo man.

I would rather play it than 5th.

>>96592331
The world was basically not ready to appreciate all the good it did for D&D and TTRPGs in general. You will notice that no one has any argument against why the system is bad except "it was WoW" without any elaboration on why they say that or why that's a bad thing. Notice that the fastest growing D&D competitor in Draw Steel is basically 4e and it's taking the market by storm.

>>96592331
Fell's Five comic was really good and its a real shame that it got cut short

im utterly indifferent about it

I don't mind it but they very obviously didn't understand aesthetics, stupidly obvious mistakes like using "powers", "bloodied", etc.

>>96592357
>it's taking the market by storm
citation?

>>96592466
Ain't OP but to be fair considering how small the market is even a thousand sales within the short timespan it's been out could be considered "taking the market by storm".

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I have played and run D&D 4e since 2008.

I have been playing both D&D 4e and Draw Steel for over a year, now.

I ran a level 7 session of 4e a few days ago, played in a level 10 session earlier today, and will run another level 7 session tomorrow.

>>96592515
Are you the Touhou guy?

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>>96592515

Also, I would like to plug the 4e homebrew works of "absolitude." I have been playing and DMing with them for a couple of years.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f0_Gd5Xu86rXgsZ-f7vII-jLVotFdVI5dGuG6j1fBtg/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CzkCldGxIkLopWTvyx1wbkvhNm0CnXznYrApMwwBmos/edit

Another 4e homebrewer whose material I have played and DMed with is "erachima." Here is a collected compilation of their works:
https://mega.nz/file/jN11XB7R#No-ZPpvO-tXQD4XSiGvVG7NLS_YBwajJgU0AGuEkxhc

There is also the PandOmnibus, but I do not have experience playing or DMing with it:
https://imp-faced-publishing.itch.io/the-pandomnibus

>>96592519
Yes 2hu has shifted to spamming mihoyo slop

>>96592534
Thanks dude

>>96592331
It was unfairly maligned, but that malignancy stemmed from the surprisingly hostile advertising campaign and the unnecessarily sterile in-book presentation of material. There are definitely design decisions I disagree with, such as every single power being class-specific instead of powers being a universal list that classes have restrictions on their access to, but every system other than GURPS has some flaws.

Sadly, the presentation does continue to filter me from actually running a game of it.

>>96592331
forget about 4th edition
WHY THE FUCK
was /tg/ so mad at World of KINOcraft during its prime?
Jealousy?

>>96592610
How to break GURPS:

Option 1: make a character who is really rich. Have him buy everything. Presto, he's now unbalanced against the poor slobs. "Well I'll take away all that stuff!" When I said everything, I included body guards.

Option 2: play a game of GURPS Mecha, RAW.

Option 3: Play a highly lethal game where characters die frequently. Have a player (or players) who didn't make backup characters like you told them, and don't want to play one of your pregens. They just need "a minute" to make a new one, so please pause the game while they do so. And no, they won't just rename their dead character thankyouverymuch.

(I like GURPS, but it shares some of the classic old-school TTRPG design hiccups.)

>>96592331
>dusk

>>96592722
unironic mental illness

>>96592730
I made a martial artist character who was really rich in dungeon fantasy and he wasn't unbalanced against the dwarf barbarian who had nothing but a really big axe

>>96592331
It's still a garbage attempt to cash in on WoW's popularity by making an analog MMO, no matter how much contrarians and zoomers who started with it insist otherwise.

>>96592331
Honestly the OP sums it up nicely.

>>96592730
>so please pause the game
No.

>>96592757
it plays nothing like wow or any mmorpg

>>96592777
What we mean by that is that the game boils down to everyone managing "X at Y" interval abilities to order-of-operations your way through fights, with differences between the classes being little more than if they had different animations.

>>96592722
Just paper nerds being angry at computer nerds, and also not liking the popular thing.

>>96592814
you've never played a mmorpg in your life

>>96592826
That's nice, anon.

>>96592331
Analog version of an MMO.

>>96592331
A middling rpg system that was killed by the first monster manual.
also we arent We, I don't know you from Adam.

>>96592331

That youtube comment is right. Rare occurrence.

>>96592814
>interval abilities to order-of-operations your way through fights
You're describing Exalted, 4e doesn't have inter-combat cooldowns; you don't have a rotation.

>>96592357
>no one has any argument against why the system is bad

Did they ever fix skill challenges? Because as I understand it, between the PHB, DMG, and first two published adventures, there were at least four different iterations of the skill challenge rules that made it to print over the course of about a year, none of which actually mathematically worked.

Given that skill challenges was sort-of a cornerstone of the edition, you'd think they'd work right out the gate...but as far as I'm aware if you want skill challenge rules that actually work you need to go with a community-made homebrew fix.

>>96593073
>none of which actually mathematically worked.

*Worse, if I recall correctly, even after all that work, the final result was that the best way to win at skill challenges was to have one player make all the checks, which was the exact opposite of the intended purpose: getting the whole group involved.

AND, didn't it discourage deviating from the "script" of the skill challenge that the DM wrote up, in that while you are allowed to attempt something the DM didn't anticipate, the DM was to impose a penalty on the improvised check? In other words, it punished creative thinking?

>>96592357
any system that requires as much hacking as 4e did at launch is a bad system.
>Draw Steel
literally who

>>96592357
>Notice that the fastest growing D&D competitor in Draw Steel

Throughout the 1990s the fastest-growing religion in the world was Wicca.

How many Wiccans do you know today?

>>96593093
Go around the table, everyone making one contribution, someone might go twice.
And malus if it's off-the-wall but still kind-of-sort-of related.

>>96593073
The PHB and DMG skill challenges are actually the same iteration but written from different perspectives which is actually even worse.

>>96593153
>And malus if it's off-the-wall but still kind-of-sort-of related.

The actual text of the DMG is:

>If a player wants to use a skill you didn’t identify as a primary skill in the challenge, however, then the DC for using that secondary skill is hard. The use of the skill might win the day in unexpected ways, but the risk is greater as well. In addition, a secondary skill can never be used by a single character more than once in a challenge.
- pg. 73., DMG (4e)

So no, the penalty for going off the DM's curated script (don't call it a "malus", that's too dignified for what it is) occurs regardless of whether it's off-the-wall but still sort-of related, or if it's actually perfectly reasonable but the DM just didn't anticipate it. That's the Rules As Written in the DMG. It *presumes* that the risk may be greater when in reality there's every possibility that it might actually be more sensible, depending on the DM.

So. That's my complaint with 4e, which has nothing to do with "it's WoW". My complaint is:
- The Skill Challenge system's math was never worked out by the actual company
- They published four different iterations of the rules over the course of a year, none of which worked
- A solution had to be contrived by fans of the game, in essence a community patch, doing the job the devs should have done in the first place
- Even then, due to the fundamental way the math works out, it's usually better to have one person make all the checks, instead of everyone contributing
- And to top it all off, the rules mechanically punish creative thinking or otherwise going off the DM's carefully-curated script.

Now then, shall we turn to Monster Manual 1 and its math? Or are we willing to accept that 4e has mechanical problems that have NOTHING to do with the fact that it's an attempt at a tabletop WoW clone?

>>96592331
I think it was the wrong IP for an otherwise okay system framework. Otherwise, it was plagued with a lot of problems surrounding its production and after it crashed and burned, some people put fresh eyes on it as a finished project and decided it was alright. However, they had to be a bunch of pretentious faggots about it and now we've got 4e evangelists who haven't actually touched the system in nearly 2 decades, but will eagerly tell everyone how wrong they were about 4e and how it was the most perfect system and everything everyone every said negatively about it was dead wrong.

>>96592369
It was Marvel-tier quipshit and you know it.

>>96592331
the game is better than what 90% of people give it credit for, but the remaining percentage of die hard 4enjoyers on 4chan over rate the game and/or do not admit the problems it has

>>96592357
I think ADEU+Action points is toxic and essentials sours the line. I think the abundance of forced movement powers don't offer as much pay off as they should- systems like gubat banwa, lancer and draw steel have addressed this well. The controller role is undercooked ( Icon fixes it beautifully but they fucked leaders with their new action economy). Essentials line sours the product line, probobly the worst .5 edition ever.

>>96593073
Skill challenges are fine, use whichever version of the rules you like. I found that the game having 'no rules' out of combat made for much more roleplaying and I wish the line stuck to that instead of trying to fill things in over product releases. Monster Manual math got fixed in the creature compendium which is more than you can say for 95% of bestiaries. Most bestiaries are barely functional.

>>96592534
>>96592515
run a game for me and my sambo Edna. Excuse me for throwing a random space in your 13.2 feedback document

>>96592534
these homebrew class changes look really fucking good. I adore the idea of playing the game without a guide and with some new content. Treating assassin like a real class? Fucking based. It was terrible but I thought the concept of shrouds was cool ( Reapers have them in FF14 now, fucking liminal ). Not sure how I feel about changing swordmage's name.

>>96593265
It was quipshit before quipshit had completely saturated every single medium of fiction, which made it less bad and still more tolerable compared to contemporary quipshit.

>>96593265
And?

>>96592767
This also breaks the game, because now you're down a player. Rinse and repeat and you have no players.

>>96593312
>do not admit the problems it has
You have not been to the threads, then.
The rub is that the problems of the system are either not fatal ones, or come down to an opinion of style/presentation.
Imo. 4e actually is a distilled Gygaxian approach to D&D; the surprise people displayed when it came out makes me think a lot of the vocal crowd came off of 3e and WoD experiences with rpgs, and not Basic or even Advanced experiences. The complaints about lack of rules for incidental actions, where in earlier editions the DM/Ref was expected to make judgment calls, was telling.

>>96593436
you bring up some strong points but I have participated in many 4e threads and there is a strong core of fans who pretend the edition is flawless.

>>96592534
Spellguard and Cleric LF DM. I might have a third player too.

>>96593365
No.

>>96593377
And it fucking sucks.

>>96593558
Its great, you just have no taste

>>96592722
because it was a boring grindfest of a game even in the golden years and people coming with mmorpg sensibilities into the hobby were always the worst

>>96593634
that shit does not matter compared to doing entire continents with no loading screens and huge numbers of players active , combined with the most responsive controls of the genre.

>>96593664
a game being boring because it's whole thing is numbers go up through grinding is not important but not having loading screens, big continents and lots of people playing the game is huh?

the fuck is wrong with you mmo people and wow specifically?

>>96593699
I dont think the game got reduced to being a numbers game until an addon made gearscore a meme in wotlk. Classic was a big joke beacuse of esports culture.

For the original crop of players things were about exploration and collecting cool shit. the majority of wow at launch was much less grindy than anything else in the genre. FF11 and EQ were literally about grinding mobs. WoW focused on quests and pvp. There was nothing like dueling in wow on the market at all when it came out. They learned alot from diablo 2 ( where I did not like the pvp- now that was a grindan game ) You don't see big grinds in vanilla until the honor system and AQ

>>96593122
I know about as many Wiccans as I do Christians.

>>96593220
>it's an attempt at a tabletop WoW clone?
Imagine invalidating your entire post like that. We won't make any progress in any discussion until you people admit that it's nothing like world of warcraft.

>>96592814
>What we mean by that is that the game boils down to everyone managing "X at Y" interval abilities to order-of-operations your way through fights,

That's just completely false lol

>>96593220
>Now then, shall we turn to Monster Manual 1 and its math?
Math that was fixed, officially; to the entire community's satisfaction in direct contrast to 3.5 and 5th edition? I mean hey, if you wanna refite yourself after saying "the fans had to fix it!" When the rpg community's been doing that longer than either of us were alive, be my guest.

>>96593379
Rinse and repeat until I have players who can follow the basic instruction of "Make Backups." And/Or players who have the wherewithal and systems mastery to efficiently make new characters on their own as we play. And presumably wipe their own ass.

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>>96592331
While the balancing efforts definitely worked, it worked by making every class feel and play somewhat the same; the streamlining removed a lot of texture.

>>96594326
This is only true for PHB1

>>96592331
the whole gameplay loop sucked ass and most importantly it sucked ass at trying to simulate dnd.
the math was so bad that even after fixing it combats took forever.
it managed to be more popular than pathfinder i guess, at least as far as sales go (as that is supposed to mean anything) and some of it's trash rules like the short rests were latched on to 5e to the detriment of players worldwide

the true reason people hated 4e was that people really wanted to love dnd and this edition was truly hard to love for many
this is why people were so fucking excited for the lukewarm flavorless lipton green tea that was 5e.
it just wasnt hateable so people were allowed to love dnd again
this was obviously upset by the wotc x hasbro shenanigans that has everybody feeling angry trying to find the dnd alternative.

Tldr, it failed because it honestly failed to capture the hearts of dnd fans and sales numbers dont really matter imo

>>96592331
>dust
is that an icon refrence?

>>96594381
ah geez dood, thats not what pundit would say and pundit got paid to ruin 5e with the advantage mechanic. Pundit would say that there was a cabal of early 90s cyber liberals who would openly talk about trying to force the hobby to be a storygames thing and not a tactical wargame like its roots. Considering what else we have seen happen in modern culture its probobly the results of the white and blue flag nation trying to get revenge for gygax turning phylacteries into a thing liches use instead of a thing rabbis use.

Why did they shoot that web dev anyway?

>>96594423
who the fuck is Pundit? He sounds like an osrg tripfag

>>96594423
"Israel killed Joseph and Melissa Batten" would be a really good line on a TTRPG-specific conspiracy iceberg.

>>96594447
pretty much yeah, except hes a venusalian freemason writing about alchemy and shit. dood wrote a bunch of games like lion and dragon, arrows of indra and an invisible college game ( somewhere between CoC, WoD Mage and an irl secret society initiation)

>>96594482
woah woah woah cool it with the antisemitism

>>96592722
It was the source of every design decision that killed the MMORPG genre
>hyperfocused on raids and dungeons
>inhibted players' ability to socialise with segregated factions
>gearing system steadily discarded the idea that some items should stay relevant for a while, by the end of TBC if you weren't in gear from the latest patch then you might as well have been in worthless greys
>reduced wide variety of roles and party positions down to "uhh tank and healer and damage" completely removing roles like logistics(party resource management), supports, and controllers, then steadily pruned away what little role flexibility 90% of the classes had over time
>world went from being 99% of the game to being an inconvenience that was barely tolerated, flight was introduced so you could just afk in a straight line from the hub to your raid location for the night without having to care about pesky things like immersion

>>96592331
Seems like the general consensus is "it's bad because it's not 3.5e".
Pretty much every criticism leveled toward it other than bookkeeping struggles are also present in older editions.
Almost every sacred cow that it killed, other than "vancian" spellcasting (which isn't actually vancian but whatever), was largely an emulation of earlier versions of the rules:
>Magic missile was an attack roll in 0e
>The change to multiclassing was closer to AD&D multiclassing than 3e was
>Hybrid multiclassing was introduced in PHB3 which was basically AD&D Dual-classing
>Martials being allowed to do things other than full-round attack, which was generally how you would approach combat in earlier editions anyway (if you were just attacking, without getting creative and thinking in the moment, in character, you were probably going to die in short order), just codified into abilities so that 3egroids could actually understand it
So basically, some teething issues aside, which were completely solved by the time PHB3 released, 4e was the answer to all of 3.5e's problems. But the 3.5e community didn't want a solution, they wanted ivory tower design so that they could coerce new players into being meatshield slaves for them. It's little wonder that the terminally online clowns of the 3.5e community made such a vocal stink about it - it showed the world just how vile they were.

>>96594930
you sound like the ACKS shill anon

>>96594930
Ivory Tower design is based and martials should suck forever.

>>96594943
Never played acks in my life, sorry. Could I perhaps interest you in a shitty european ryuutama clone instead?

>>96594959
sure

>>96594954
At least you're upfront about it I guess, but don't be surprised when other people rightfully tell you to fuck off for wanting a power fantasy that can only be maintained by making other players miserable.

>>96594959
>Could I perhaps interest you in a shitty european ryuutama clone instead?
If it's shitty, yeah.

>>96594965
>>96594986
Awesome! It's called fabula ultima, and it styles itself as a "TTJRPG", although clearly written by people who have only ever heard memes about what JRPGs are apparently like instead of actually understanding the various core tropes of the genre and twists of it, further corrupted by a terminally online leftist's view of how a party should be assembled - The starter adventure's pregenerated characters consist of a nonbinary bard(who the starter kit insists MUST be played if less than four players are present), two strong women, and a femboy. Still, it's a reasonably fun and simple RPG with a focus on collaborative worldbuilding to get the players invested in the story, and it makes for a great introduction to RPGs for people who have only a vague knowledge of them.

>>96594967
Nah, it's just your whining. You can still have fun with a party mostly or full of martials, because it's fun to have a real challenge not solvable by magic fingers.
Don't try to project your desire for power fantasy. Were wizards not omnipotent, you would then argue that martials should be stronger and so on.
And the lesson of the day - don't be a metagaming niggerfaggot and play straight.

P.S. that said, all classes should be serviceable in their niche, with the default martial able to solve most problems with effort. Having classes more powerful than an idiot with an iron stick is only a problem if you're insecure.

actually I hate 4e because it plays more like a rigorously defined boardgame where everyone gets superpowers by level 2 than an open ended cooperative story telling game about adventurers, but whatever you gotta tell yourselves. people just made the video game comparisons because of the art and the neatly arranged cards for abilities which seemed right out of a contemporary strategy game of the time. fuck all of you, everything is bad, I will not buy whatever you want me to buy, eat shit and kys.

>>96593505
I rarely saw that, as it one of the most common posts was the math fixes for MM1+2 monsters.
Like I said, the most common complaints came done to style and presentation. Posts such as >>96594326 insisting classes were all the same, where that really wasn't the case in actual play. The details mattered more than sweeping differences in text.

>>96594381
>sales numbers dont really matter imo
>compared to complaints on the internet, specifically 4chan
This site is the only place that espoused an overall negative opinion of 4e in aggregate that I ever saw.
The only other place I really saw a negative opinion in total was places devoted to FR as a setting, because 4e kicked over the status quo in a serious way. The same was done to Eberron, but with far less complaints.

also everyone on the "OLD DND WUZ WARGAMEZ" stuff is mad, there were just as many if not more people playing without mats and figures forever. when they started to incorpate more wargamey ideas they still followed the narrative coop game approach. source: got my start playing a and/odnd bastardization ran by my buddy's ~60 year old dad for his group of ~60 year old friends (some of which who had already passed away by 2005). the way they tell it, their style of play was by no means unique. straight up revisionism nonsense to pretend there was some specific gygaxian wargaming crowd driving the popularity of dnd when it's simply not how the game has existed in the public/average player's mind for most of its life.

anyways like I said fuck you I'm not playing 4e and I wont be buying any nostalgia fangame remakes that "fix it" anytime soon either. eat shit and kys.

>>96595229
it kicked over the status quo of FR is the understatement of the century.
it raped the setting so hard they had to soft reboot it in 5e and it still is just an empty husk of what it once was forever and ever.
The treatment of Eberron was by no means similar to that of FR.
also stop spouting lies. just like tg 4e is a divisive edition everywhere online. the first things that pop up if you google it are a couple of reddit threads where you see the same talking points from both its detractors and it's fans that you would see on tg
Hell you neednt google anything. If something is good people will play it. The fact that 3rd edition retained so many players and recruited so many more through pathfinder which is basically the same game should tell you that it had to directly compete with the previous edition, something that was unprecedented int he history of dnd and especially at that scale

>>96595245
>specific gygaxian wargaming crowd driving the popularity of dnd
That was called 3e, anon.
No one except poorfags lacked a battle mat.

>>96595343
>talk about the entire history of dnd
>anon still can't help but hyperfixate on his specific life experience
goddamn I fucking hate retard autist tabletop gamers so fucking much.

>>96595340
I said 'on the whole', anon.
You had people bitching about the game, but no other place had an overall negative opinion of 4e.
>The fact that 3rd edition retained so many players and recruited so many more through pathfinder which is basically the same game
I was there. What I saw was that many people cut their teeth on rpgs during the time where 3e was the ONLY game in town of note. WoD was on it's spiral down, and games like SR, WE SW, GURPS, etc were virtually unknown.
I'm old enough to remember how the opinion of 3e on the heels of 2e were very negative from the 2e crowd (Diablo Edition), but there was no internet to calcify the opinion, rightly or wrongly.
>FR
I'll say it: the change to FR swept the mat in a way that made it so that new players weren't hampered by decades of lore and the presence of 3 dozen beings that could casually end the world if they wanted. The few that remained were explicitly represented as antagonists for players to strive against. It was as close to Hyboria: the Setting as you would get outside Howard's books as you could find. I ran a campaign specfically about crushing the ambitions of 'The Evil Nation of Wizards' and took story beats right out of the Conan stories, and it melded seamlessly in to both the plot and mechanics in a way I didn't even expect. FR became a playground for the individual group, rather than Greenwood's coke money, and I appreciated it.

why do 4e autists feel such a big need to defend the superiority of their game?
If you go to the 3e general rn and tell people you tried 3.5 but dont like it, they will probably respond with something like, this edition isnt for everyone, its ok anon go play what you like etc.
4e autists on the other hand will act like arguementative assholes trying to defend their edition like they have personal stakes in it.

I get having these arguements 15 years ago when most fans of both editions would be either underage or in their early 20s but nowdays both communities are populated by people in their early to late 30s. shit's weird man

>>96595436
you act like tabletop players are capable of maturing as they physically age.

>>96593436
> 4e actually is a distilled Gygaxian approach to D&D
lmao no its not. WotC D&D players are utterly deranged.

>>96595436
>people say provably untrue things, why does anyone object to liars?
No one in this thread has said 'hey, tried 4e, it's not for me'. They come tied to very common internet arguments about why the game is actively bad.

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Never played it, it was so short lived that by the time I saved up enough to buy the core rules 5e came out and I played that instead

>>96595433
the FR arguement makes zero sense
>hurr durr i raped a setting because newbies and normies could get more easily into it
i incidentally did no such thing to other established settings i converted like Eberron or Dark sun
Also FR wasnt even the default setting of the edition, Nethir's Vale was, so why the fuck does it matter if normies could get more easily into FR. it was a secondary setting.
Either way if they wanted people to have no assumptions about 30 years of lore they could just not give a fuck and just post a list of deities and races available to the FR and leave it at that just like 3.5 did with Greyhawk.

stop trying to defend inexcusable shit like this.

Also my personal experiences from the early 2000s were wildly different with people in my lgs circle playing other games likes gurps, exalted, legend of the five rings, warhammer fantasy and stormbringer. doesnt mean this is the universal truth the same way your personal experiences arent either.
The fact that loads of people stuck with 3e or tried 4e and eventually settled on pathfinder is a fact

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>>96592607

You are welcome.

>>96593073
>>96593220

The original Dungeon Master's Guide 1 is, sadly, outdated in many ways. You will have to check the Rules Compendium for the latest version of skill DCs and skill challenges.

The Compendium has the skill DCs here: https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary384

Monster Manual 1 math and design are badly outdated compared to Monster Manual 3 math and design, but you probably know that already.

>>96593320
>>96593332
>>96593511

I do not run voice-based games. If you want to try something via text, leave an email address (it can be a throwaway account), and I will contact you.

>>96594326
>>96594377

I do not think even Player's Handbook 1 classes of the same role (cleric and warlord; fighter and paladin; ranger, rogue, and warlock) play the same.

I am not defending 4e with just the Player's Handbook 1, though. The game refined itself a good deal in the years after its release.

>>96595436

It is a grid-based tactical RPG. If you like grid-based tactical RPGs, you might enjoy 4e. If you dislike grid-based tactical RPGs, then 4e probably is not for you. That is about it, as I see the game.

>>96595436
Because 4e "feels" like an underdog to many of its fans. It had some actually great ideas, but most people did not consider them because:
>WoW audience marketing problem (the game is not WoW, but positioned itself in the market alongside it, justifiably creating animosity in the playerbase that just wanted D&D)
>crazy murder suicide stops digital tool development
>video game development stopped
>college textbook presentation spread out with core books greedily divided into multiple pieces
For these reasons, many people think 4e was never given a real chance. For these same reasons, most people never -will- give 4e a chance. Take the good stuff and move on, my dudes.

>>96595481
you want my personal experience? i bought the 4e PHB excited to play a game of dnd with a friend of mine because we were in highschool and poor enough.
Mind you i had already read loads of dnd novels, drizzt included and i was stoked.
Fast foward one month and i havent managed to read even half the book. Dont even know what it was, it just didnt click. It really didnt feel like dnd they way i had envisioned it. Eventually gift my half of the book to my friend that never got around to playing it either and put of rpgs. Fast forward a couple of years later in college a friend of a friend invites me to specate a dnd game after telling him i am a fan of dnd literature. This actually feels alright. Turns out they were playing a homebrew based on 3e. Start playing 3.5 with some books downloaded from pirate bay and printed on some cheap as paper. Eventually graduate the dnd containment zone.

>>96595547
I dont know if you ve heard but 3.5 is also a grid based tactical rpg anon

>>96592331
it was a fun board game but a lousy roleplaying game

>>96594857
we only know this with the benefit of hindsight, I'm curious why it was hated THEN.

>>96595526
It was actively supported for 4 years and was still around a further couple on shelves, anon.

>>96595797
psst.
Let me tell you a little secret
the only rules that matter in any game pertain to combat.
if you can't roleplay because of the combat system that's on you.

>>96595611
Speaking from personal experience, the hundreds of pages in each and every book dedicated to little power statblocks made my eyes glaze over. There's decent art in there every few pages, and the layout is fine... But the fucking excel spreadsheet aesthetic they went with for every power and magic item and anything else they could fit into one of those little awful fucking boxes just drained my will to even page through the book to get to the stuff I wanted to read.

>>96595886
I had significantly better uses for my money

>>96592331
Still the worst edition of D&D despite 5th's attempts to take that title.

>>96594857
logistics ( excellent name for that role) was definitly a thing you thought about during raid composition. Resource management mattered alot until wotlk.

raids are good and dungeons were good before they got casualized, though I think the loot system when the content was good was pretty toxic. I agree that horizontal gear progression is better, FF11 had the best itemization. You are right about hybrid characters not mattering, i started as a hybrid shaman and by the third instance my tanking and healing skills no longer mattered - i ended up rerolling warrior beacuse if I was going to be a big weapon DPS i might as well have charge.
the issue with the world not being the game is somewhat true - thats a big problem FF has right now. Vanilla had a very good world design - TBC and wotlk were too reliant on mind numbing daily quests. When they made the world relevent with world dailys in legion it quickly became a never ending chore list.

I dont know if it is fair to say WoW killed MMOs, its still the most popular MMO - its not infallible. Some of the WoW clones are pretty decent ( warhammer online! God its ugly but it plays good) . FF14 has some really excellent shit in it. Probobly the best soundtrack in all of video games - setting up a light motiff for 10 years for a big payoff is an unheard of feat.

The frustrating thing about WoW is that no matter what patch you are playing on there is always some humungo flaw to current patch. Oh the pvp dosent work. Theres only one raid. class x is absurdly broken. Some dumbass thing , like finding a log of shit in potato soup. 14 would mog it upsidedown if they utilized their world map more and if the company actually reinvested into the game with its profits.

>>96594943
hello fishfag have you assfuckedmany fish today?

>>96595039
I had a long conversation about game design with a DM on discord who ran a pathfinder open world for a 100 people for like 5 years. He was convinced that using 3.5's tier system for classes were tier 0 and tier 1 are full on reality warpers like wizard, cleric, druid, artificer, erudite-psion for pathfinder was just incorrect. He staunchly beleived that at high levels martials were the core of damage, tankiness and the party and that wizard were far more effective buffing fighters than fending for themselves. I tried to convince him that Rogue was not that bad in pathfinder and he kept telling me to fuck off even though I'm right.

>>96594999
the class design is pretty dogshit in fabula ultima which sucks beacuse the other systems are pretty comfy. I've been seeing google ads for this game - i'm starting to think people are being paid to shill the game on here. I've known about FU for like 2 years now and suddenly everyone else is talking about it cuz of the ads?

>>96595214
that kind of gaslightly ' i never saw that' response is what I expect from the 4e crowd. People will tell you that 4e does not have a problem with high level combat being going nova instead of going tactical - I don't think that was a problem with monster math either but an optimized party using action points and daily powers in sync only got better at nova-ing as it leveled.

>>96595245
gygax hosted dungeon tournaments with cash prizes, man invented e-sports

>>96595340
5e players were definitely trained to hate 4e. WotC set it up in marketing. >Chris Perkins: hahaha 4e sucks > bald from penny arcade: wtf it was my first edition and I enjoyed it greatly > chris perkins: flabbergasted, has never heard someone say something independant of the marketing script, his NPC brain overloads from non npc response.

the spellplauge shit was dumb in FR I agree with that

>>96595436

>>96595436
I find those people incredibly annoying too - but I would defend the game for many years because I wanted more TTTRPGs and it is good that we finally have them now

>>96595547
I'm down for a text game. You joined one of the text games I hosted once. I'll get ur discord off of absol.

>>96595919
Ah yes a an easy to read box is so much worse than blocks of texts

>>96596328
muh naturalistic language

What are the real differences between 5/3.X and 4? Naturalistic language vs clear 'mtg' esq language, simulationist design vs straight foreward design. People used to bitch about healing surges alot. No one minds Hit Dice or Recoveries - that was simply a bad choice of language. if 4e ruined dnd it might have been by putting teiflings and dragonborns in phb1. People say 4e was trying to be WoW but really 4e was trying to be MTG. Remember how they almost sold booster packs?

>>96595611
>>96595919
I had said already about presentation.
You went in looking for FR style novelization of the rulebook, and both of you were disappointed that a book of rules was merely that.
>>96596307
>People will tell you that 4e does not have a problem with high level combat being going nova instead of going tactical
That was something touhoufag routinely brought up when it came to bleeding edge optimization. Alpha striking depended on the entire party working together to function, so you required an entire party of high level optimizers to make it happen. No one denied that it was the case, but it didn't negate the core conceit of the game in that the party was greater than the sum of it's parts.
>>96595547
Sup, TF, hope things are going well for you!

>>96596328
I too love staring at spreadsheets.

>>96592331
I have no opinion on anything past 3.5 because I never played that crap.

>>96596377
anon i had read dnd novels based on both 2e, 3e and 4e and i didnt know the difference back then. it just didnt feel like dnd when the 3rd edition rulebook did, which was also just a book of rules as you say

>>96595436
There is a difference between 'I don't like 4E because I don't like the kind of game it's trying to be' and 'HURR 4E NOT RPG 4E MMO MINIONS BREAK MY IMMERSION 4RRIES ARE FAGGOTS!'

There have been people who are the former and I don't have a problem with them. 95% of the time on /tg/ that's not who you're dealing with.

>>96596368
The booster pack one is also hilarious because they sell spell cards now for all of the classes

>>96595611
Ironically I felt 4E better captured the tone of a lot of D&D novels through gameplay. Save for magic, which was always setting-raping bullshit that made most of those novels not actually make sense.

>>96596221
FFXIV might be the single worst game on the market right now
Not just MMO, the worst game.
It's in a worse state than 1.0 and that was bad enough they practically pulled it from sale.

>>96595817
>we only know this with the benefit of hindsight
No, EQ and FFXI players saw that shit immediately. Faction segregation was a major selling point and a massive step down from the reputation system of EQ, and the tank/healer/dps unholy trinity was codified at launch. The increased focus on instanced raids and dungeons was also a big change from how MMOs typically went, so many people saw the writing on the wall that it would get worse as the game continued as soon as it launched.

>>96596719
Faction segregation wasn't even the plan originally, it was crowbarred in thanks to one of the devs playing Dark Age of Camelot where it actually made sense.

>>96596221
>logistics was definitly a thing you thought about during raid composition. Resource management mattered alot until wotlk.
It was never a dedicated thing. It was just - Is there a druid to cast innervate, is there a paladin to put BoW on the healers / shammy to drop mana tide. It was never a primary concern or the main reason you brought along a particular character.

>>96592331
The least bad game printed with the name Dungeons and Dragons. The least Dungeons and Dragons role-playing game ever printed by TSR/WotC. Yes, this even includes the modern and scifi games.

>>96596434
Until 4e, the D&D books read like a story book, with rules scattered in the text.
Presentation.

>>96596307
>5e players were definitely trained to hate 4e. WotC set it up in marketing.
That's literally how 4e was marketed with reference to 3.x

>>96596931
It was also how 3E was marketed with reference to 2E (back to the dungeon, etc) and how 5E was marketed with reference to 4E.

>>96592357
>"it was WoW" without any elaboration on why they say that or why that's a bad thing

It doesn't need to be elaborated upon if you aren't mentally handicapped.
"D&D should not be like WoW" is a self-evident statement.

t. AD&D 1st ed player

>>96598118
So dnd shouldn't be based in a fantasy setting?

>>96596818
I was in the high-end mythic raiding scene for a few xpacs, and we had some fairly byzantine practices regarding:
>class selection and expected ilvl
>learning and practicing encounters before raid night on characters other than our mains
>cooldown management (especially heal cds) with almost military precision
>parse reviews and witch hunts for those who "stood in the fire" or fucked up an essential mechanic
>loot distribution was a mexican standoff that lasted from Tuesdays at 7pm to midnight
>and yes, we were expected to commit to that much time 3x/week

>>96598118
Sorry for the double post, but if you don't mind I would appreciate you elaborating on it because I'm writing an RPG myself as a side project and want to get some real feedback about what -actually- pissed people off.
>What mechanics or presentations in 4e really epitomized "WoW shit" to you and made you hate the system
>What was missing from 4e that should have been in anything that bears the name of "real D&D"
Not looking to argue with whatever you say and I'm pretty far from retarded (I, good sir, am abyssally moronic and six sigmas in the wrong direction); I just want to have some insight into what I should avoid or definitely have. Thanks

>>96592331
It was not what I want from a TTRPG, nor what I want from a D&D game. I'm sure if you're all about minis and don't care if the mechanics make sense in-character and don't care about non-combat mechanics much and don't care about setting continuity with earlier editions or the novel lines - it's probably fine. If I want a goofy skirmish tactics game that doesn't make a ton if sense, I have Disgaea. I very rarely play that either though.

That wasn't / isn't me though. Play what you want ofc, but for me it missed every checkbox that might get my interest up. I did play in a ~6 month campaign pre and post essentials. It really was not my thing.

That said, I'm not speaking for other people or making any claims about my RPG design priorities applying to other people.

>>96592357
> no one has any argument against why the system is bad except "it was WoW" without any elaboration on why they say that or why that's a bad thing.
False. >>96598640

I know what I like from RPGs and D&D specifically, and it's not a dissociated skirmish minis game lacking decent support for the classic D&D settings.

>>96594999
>and a femboy
How fat is his ass?

>>96596818
shadow priest mana regen was very important for some classes and was the only reason shadow priests got a raid slot

>>96598537
the multiple character shit is egregiously bad. I've played a ton of games with alting but when I played a game without it I realized that having one character that does everything is so much better for the community its unreal

>>96598640
disgaea lacks the action selection of 4e. If your game does not make sense that is on you and your DM for not roleplaying better.

>>96594954
>>96594967
>>96595039
Most blatant 4rrie false flag lmao.

FYI - after 20+ years you STILL don't understand what Ivory Tower Design means.

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6 KB PNG

>>96601071
You're the only person that uses that term. Please shut the fuck up. It's a wonder you haven't been permabanned from /tg/ with how insistent you are on shitting the place up.

>>96601418
NTA, but:
> Ivory Tower Design
Is how Cook described the 3.0 practice of not telling players what each ability is good for and leaving them to figure it out and optimise.

And

> 4rrie
Has been used regularly on this board for 4e fans since at least 2010.
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/8284419/#q8284419

Both terms are pretty old and known, though a lot of idiots don't know what Ivory Tower Game Design means, and clearly never read the article. >>96594954

Ivory Tower of Game Design

> There's a third concept that we took from Magic-style rules design, though. Only with six years of hindsight do I call the concept "Ivory Tower Game Design." (Perhaps a bit of misnomer, but it's got a ring to it.) This is the approach we took in 3rd Edition: basically just laying out the rules without a lot of advice or help. This strategy relates tangentially to the second point above. The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.
> Perhaps as is obvious from the name I’ve coined for this rules writing style, I no longer think this is entirely a good idea. I was just reading a passage from a recent book, and I found it rather obtuse. But it wasn’t the writer’s fault. He was just following the lead the core books offered him. Nevertheless, the whole thing would have been much better if the writer had just broken through the barrier this kind of design sets up between designer and player and just told the reader what the heck he was talking about.

>To continue to use the simplistic example above, the Toughness feat could have been written to make it clear that it was for 1st-level elf wizards (where it is likely to give them a 100 percent increase in hit points). It’s also handy when you know you’re playing a one-shot session with 1st-level characters, like at a convention (you sure don’t want to take item creation feats in such an instance, for example).

>Ivory Tower Game Design requires a two-step process on the part of the reader. You read the rule, and then you think about how it fits in with the rest of the game. There’s a moment of understanding, and then a moment of comprehension. That’s not a terrible thing, but neither is just providing the reader with both steps, at least some of the time.

https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=13812.0

>>96598574
>what -actually- pissed people off.
Are you writing D&D? If not, it really shouldn't matter because your game will be sold to a very niche market and will live
However if you want the real truth of it:
1. People didn't like that Martials and Casters played similarly
2. People didn't like the way the game was presented and how it was gamified
3. People really, REALLY didn't like healing surges, and short-rest mechanics are still one of the most bitched about things today even though short rests in 5e are 20x as prohibitive.
4. Skill challenges sucked.
5. Grid-mandated combat cut a lot of people out.

>>96603533
Ironically almost no games have ever actually learned from OTGD's mistakes properly. The two paths I've seen have been
>Make something so simple it cannot be misunderstood
>Make something so single-use it cannot ever be misused
Which just result in increasingly less fun mechanics to toy with. The solution all along was to simply write a guide. Most designers suck stunning amounts of ass at understanding their own games, but even then you can just hire some autist who can figure out the most optimal way to beat a given encounter within 30 seconds of seeing it. Hell most of them do it for free.