Ranged attacks have the advantage of distance. I personally observe that monster/enemy designers instinctively gravitate towards abilities that punish melee PCs. Think "This monster has a nasty aura. Better not get close to it!" or "This enemy can simply teleport away and still attack!" Or flight, or "frightened and cannot move closer."This applies to GMs, too. One piece of advice I see bandied around is "Do not just have your combats take place in small, empty, white rooms. Use bigger maps and spice them up with interesting terrain and 3D elevation!" While this is a decent suggestion, many melee PCs are at their best in smaller, emptier, flatter maps. Overcorrection towards large, cluttered, 3D-elevation-heavy maps can frustrate players of melee PCs (and push them towards picking up flight and teleportation even when that might not fit their preferences).Over the past couple of weeks and four sessions, I have been alternating DM and player positions in a combat-heavy D&D 4e game, starting at high heroic. The maps and monsters come from this other person. They drew up vast maps filled with plenty of terrain and 3D elevation. They homebrewed 43 monsters, many of which have dangerous auras, mobility, or both. Unfortunately, our battle experience has been very rough; half of our fights have been miserable TPKs, mostly because the melee PCs struggled to actually reach the enemies and do their job, even with no flying enemies.ICON, descended from Lancer, is a game I have seen try to push back against this. Many enemies have anti-ranged abilities (e.g. resistance to long-ranged damage), and mobility generally brings combatants towards targets and not the other way around. Plus, "Battlefields should be around 10x10 or 12x12 spaces. Smaller maps can be around 8x8. Larger maps should be 15x15 at absolute largest." Elevation and flight are heavily simplified, as well.Pathfinder 2e's solution is to make melee deal much higher damage.What do you think of "melee hate"?
>>96608943>Over the past couple of weeks and four sessions, I have been alternating DM and player positions in a combat-heavy D&D 4e game, starting at high heroic. The maps and monsters come from this other person. They drew up vast maps filled with plenty of terrain and 3D elevation. They homebrewed 43 monsters, many of which have dangerous auras, mobility, or both. Unfortunately, our battle experience has been very rough; half of our fights have been miserable TPKs, mostly because the melee PCs struggled to actually reach the enemies and do their job, even with no flying enemies.>Gives enemies wide array of mobility and area control options>Doesn't do the same for melee combatants>Nobody has funTruly is a mystery, Edna
>I brought a knife to a gunfight and didn't win, waaaaaa
>>96608943punishing melee far more than ranged is also a thing in the majority of MMOs
>>96608943I know this is a fucking meme answer, but I'm still going to say it with complete seriousness.HAVE YOU TRIED NOT PLAYING D&D?It's a well known fact at this point that D&D's game design is utter dogshit. My group dragged me into trying Lancer awhile back, which is a game in a genre I don't even LIKE, but hot damn does it do so many things RIGHT for melee combat that seem like no-brainers for D&D if it had any competent designers behind it. Opportunity attacks every turn (instead of once a round), melee weapons regularly having much higher damage than ranged options, secondary effects like knockback and burn being way more common or easy to get on melee weapons, actual talents for parrying, a cover system and line of sight rules that makes it easy to escape ranged camping bullshit in a way more meaningful than D&D's retarded "+2AC" rules. Grapple rules that actually work. Yeah, Lancer's authors are absolute faggots and suck at writing lore, but that's kind of the point if even they can make a more mechanically competent game than a billion dollar company like WotC can do with D&D.
>>96608943what game kept TPKing your melee heavy parties?
>>96609055Monster statistics, enemy encounter compositions, (very large) battle maps, and starting positions were all made by this other person, not me. They DMed half of the sessions, while I ran the other half. When I was DMing, I simply used the encounters given to me.It is not hard to replicate in base 4e, admittedly, even at the lowest of levels. Consider a bunch of elven archers (level 2 standard artilleries), elven assassins (level 2 standard skirmishers), and wilden hunters (level 2 standard lurkers). All of these are level 2 standard enemies with a thematic link, different de jure combat roles, a reasonable amount of tactical sense, and ranged 20+ weapons.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster188https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster5310https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster5026If they start at a long distance from the party (which is what was happening in our fights, because the other person got the idea to create vast and sprawling maps full of difficult terrain), then the melee PCs will have a rough time reaching the enemies.Once we move on to high heroic, we have near-untouchable nightmares such as the tridrone watcher, a ranged flyer with immobilizing multitarget attacks. I once fielded these in a 4e game back in December 2023, and they were as infuriating as they look.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster6405
>>96609122the best part of lancer is the wavedashing. Its so broken i doubt its ever going to be in another game.
>>96609134Maybe the solution was, like, not doing all that shit? Just a thought?
>>96609124Recently, it was 4e. The parties were not even melee-heavy. They were half-melee, half-ranged. Unfortunately, the maps were on the enormous size (e.g. 24 by 24 squares, PCs and enemies start on opposite ends, no retreat for either side, map is stuffed with difficult terrain and elevation changes), and the DM wound up statting enemies with very generous ranged attacks, mobility, or both.The maps were manually made by the other person. I do not think they were deliberately trying to inconvenience melee PCs. I think they just made a map that they thought looked cool, and wanted to proudly show it off in any way they could.
Edna thread, do not engage
>>96609175its okay to take a game loss sometimes
>>96609175there was a 13a 1e encounter that many DMs independently generated. Kobold archer mooks, kobold leader to buff their damage and some troops to stand between the party and the deathball.These monsters are printed next to each other and level 1/2 so many DMs tpk'd their parties by running a version of this encounter. Can't just evocation everything down everytime :^)
>>96609175Oh, and dangerous auras as well. I think it is easy to fall into the trap of designing monsters like this. "Hmmm, how do I make this enemy more interesting? I know: I will give them some sort of aura that makes them dangerous to approach!"Base, non-homebrewed 4e has examples of this as well. I think that the other person took this as a precedent and overdid it.>>96609220Half of the combat encounters in those four sessions were TPKs. I was DMing; I simply used the prescribed maps, monster statistics, enemy compositions, and starting positions.I do not think the other person was expecting the combination of the maps and the monsters to be so punishing on melee PCs.
>>96609122I like ICON, descended from Lancer. I mention it in the opening post. I have been keeping up with the 2.0 previews, and I eagerly await the full release.>Opportunity attacks every turn (instead of once a round)D&D 4e has this by default for all characters. Fighters tend to have some of the strongest opportunity attacks around thanks to their Combat Superiority class feature, to say nothing of their Combat Challenge.Draw Steel does this as well.>melee weapons regularly having much higher damage than ranged optionsThis is what Pathfinder 2e does.>secondary effects like knockback and burn being way more common or easy to get on melee weaponsD&D 4e does this with magic weapons and feat support (e.g. Lightning Weapon, Rushing Cleats, Mark of Storm, Polearm Weapon).Draw Steel's Knockback maneuver can be optimized to deal overwhelming collision damage by a hakaan null or a hakaan fury.
>>96608943In more competently designed games, melee classes usually have a way to forcibly draw aggro or punish enemies who try to retreat from them. D&D only has opportunity attacks, which are usually not worth wasting the reaction on. I could go on and on about D&D's other design fails as well, but we'd be here all day, so let me cut to my actual advice:Stop playing D&D. It's badly designed.Stop assuming and speaking as if all other games are as bad as D&D. 90% of the time people say this, they've never even tried other games, except for D&D clones or homebrew that's "totally not D&D guys" even though it's mechanically identical.
>>96609243I don't even think 24x24 is a particularly large map. The standard 3e battlemaps were always much larger. 3.X would offer players more creative freedom in solving this kind of combat challenge. I have played Icon on large maps like this and it did not work as well as Lancer. its been awhile, 4e has things like trade your standard action for a move action and full round running right? That should help against archers. Were your players using cover? Did one side get diced? .
>charging a gunline with a club gets you killedNo shit. What the fuck else would you expect?If there was loads of terrain why did none of it provide cover?
>>96609307I'd laugh at a Lancer map that was only 24x24. I'm running a Mourning Cloak with maxed out Agility right now and a base move speed of 8.Between my base move, boost, Hunter (talent) and Skirmisher (Talent), I'm moving 21 spaces when I attack. That's not even counting Overcharge. I'm sure the Nelson and Duskwing can pull of even more impressive feats of roleplaying Sonic the Hedgehog.
>>96609334the nelson pilot on my crew was such a moron, regularly ending his turn with like 12 movement unused and still stacking movement on level up. At LL4 he stopped leveling up until LL7, just didnt feel the need to.
>>96609292D&D 4e makes opportunity attacks 1/turn and not 1/round, for all characters.4e fighters have very good opportunity attacks and punishment, between their Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge class features. You can read about them here:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=class3All of this is moot, however, if the fighter has trouble actually reaching enemies in the first place. "Grrr, just you wait: once I finally reach you, then you will be screwed!" rings hollow when it takes two rounds of running just to reach the enemies.>>96609307>I don't even think 24x24 is a particularly large map.It is when the PCs and the enemies start on opposite sides, and it is full of difficult terrain and elevation changes.>its been awhile, 4e has things like trade your standard action for a move action and full round running right?Yes, that is what melee PCs were forced to do.>>96609319>If there was loads of terrain why did none of it provide cover?There was cover. It was just regular cover, though, not superior cover.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary165I do not think the other person designed these maps particularly well, no.
>>96609364post the map
>>96609292>In more competently designed gamesSuch as?
>>96609334>>96609345I have played and GMed for a significant number of elf melee PCs in Pathfinder 2e.30 base Speed elf + 5 Nimble Elf ancestry feat + 5 Fleet general feet + 10 status wand of Longstrider/Tailwind + 5 item Shawl of Seasons (spring) = Speed 55 feet.All of this is affordable by ~6th or ~7th level.Add this to a fighter or barbarian Sudden Charge:https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4774And that is 110 feet of movement (22 squares) and then an attack, as two out of three actions in the turn.>>96609390The other person does not want their material shared at the moment, particularly when it led to a poor experience.
>>96609334This is literally what the Mourning Cloak is designed to do. Quickly reach the enemy's back line and start assassinating their snipers and artillery support. I know this might be mind-blowing to a D&D player who's used to every character having the same basic move speed, but you are playing your character as intended.
>>96609334one of the stranger mechs I have piloted had ' when you full tech preform 3 quick techs' as a frame trait and ' when you preform a full tech wavedash 3 when you preform a quick tech wavedash 2 ' Round one I would invade my entire team (most were happy to get the heat) and schmoove up to the enemy to start stacking my TORTURE.OS I and II dice. This thing could phase a third of its token through solid objects.
>>96609418>>96609429And I have played and GMed for exactly this in Pathfinder 2e, as described here >>96609416Pathfinder 2e is seemingly much more generous than D&D 4e about letting PCs stack Speed to incredible values and then Sudden Charge right in, threatening ranged attackers with Reactive Strikes.In contrast, the D&D 4e is a much better defender (e.g. Come and Get It)... when it can actually reach the enemies to begin with.There are some ways that a 4e character can mitigate this issue, such as Boots of Leaping:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=item3215Unfortunately, a level 9 rare item was outside of our price range at the time.
For example, here is what a D&D 4e fighter can do if they can actually reach the enemies.• Minor Action: Activate Rain of Steel, acquiring an automatic damage stance until the end of the encounter. 1[W] is the weapon's base damage, plus any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon, and other miscellaneous bonuses.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power1436• Move Action Minor Action: Use Kirre's Roar, marking each enemy within 3 squares and gaining Dexterity modifier as resistance to all damage until the end of the fighter's next turn.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power12850https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary139• Standard Action: Charge an enemy, with greater accuracy than normal thanks to Fighter Weapon Talent, marking that enemy with Combat Challenge.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary139• Action Point, Standard Action: Come and Get It, pulling enemies within 3 squares, dealing damage to them, and marking them with Combat Challenge as well.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary177https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power2177• The fighter now has damage resistance, several enemies marked, and a whole cluster of enemies adjacent. Rain of Steel deals automatic damage to those enemies, they have a hard time moving away due to Combat Superiority and the fighter's Agile Superiority feat (opportunity actions in 4e are 1/turn, not 1/round, and are completely separate from immediate actions), and even shifting away will trigger an immediate interrupt melee basic attack from the fighter's Combat Challenge. Similarly, if one of those enemies tries to attack one of the fighter's allies, Combat Challenge will likewise go off and give the fighter an immediate interrupt melee basic attack against that foe.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=class3https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=feat1733https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary119https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary335This is what a 4e fighter can do at level 7, and this is a 30-level game.This has great results... if the fighter can actually reach the enemies.
>>96609466If the fighter cannot reach the enemies with just a charge, then the fighter will have to use their move action to actually move, giving up Kirre's Roar.And if a move and a charge cannot take the fighter to where they want to be, then the fighter is out of luck.This is where Pathfinder 2e fighters and barbarians have a leg up. They find it much easier to amass high Speed and then Sudden Charge right in.
>>96609466there is a gunslinger class in 13th age that can shoot its gun for 1/4th damage as a move action and shoot its gun as a quick action ( does miss damage on hit ). I like the 'risky' magic weapons in 13a that let martials do a few extra dice of damage for their move action. More games should do cool things with the move action in cordellion action economy. Did your party have movement support through leader roles?
>>96609495>Did your party have movement support through leader roles?If they had a warlord on hand, they would have been able to, say, Reorient the Axis.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power10934Unfortunately, one party had an artificer, while the other had a cleric. They did not invest particularly in party mobility options, and importantly, there was no expectation that maps and deployment would be so stacked against melee.That is a key factor, I think. If the players know to expect large maps with plenty of difficult terrain, then they can build with that in mind. If they are going in blind, then they are likely to be poorly equipped (perhaps literally, considering how important items are) for the job.
>>96609517they should have ritual magick'd a scrying spell. No movement support on the supports, no utility or items to bypass elevation or difficult terrian is a skill issue.
>>96609539Combats in this game were of the spontaneous, both-sides-simply-stumble-into-one-another-and-now-have-to-fight variety.
>>96609517>That is a key factor, I think. If the players know to expect large maps with plenty of difficult terrain, then they can build with that in mind. If they are going in blind, then they are likely to be poorly equipped (perhaps literally, considering how important items are) for the job.Hot take, but I feel like some of the responsibility here is on the DM as well. Like... if I'm running a Lancer game, for example, and the players come to me with a Drake, a Balor, a Barbarossa, and a Saladin, I'm probably not going to run combat encounters on a 50x50 map with objectives 20+ spaces apart from eachother. I'm probably going to cut that map down to like 15x15 for their 3-4 speed chonky asses.
>>96609569versatility is char-op too , again, SKILL ISSUE . Players are scum, get shot with arrows player-scum.
>>96609574When I was playing and GMing Pathfinder 2e, the melee PCs with Sudden Charge had such good mobility that 30×30 or even 35×35 maps, with PCs and enemies starting on opposite ends, were very much viable.A ~6th or ~7th-level elf fighter or elf barbarian Striding and then Sudden Charging for 33 squares of movement and then a Strike was very much possible.I think that this other person, the one who made the maps, monsters, encounter compositions, and starting positions in the D&D 4e game, simply did not think through the ramifications of everything they assembled together.They probably just thought: "Oh, I want to show off this cool map I made, and these cool monsters. Let us throw them together into a fight!"
>>96609574i've seen DMs put a speed buff on pushing the cart to help these guys. its funny that the pilot net core of lancers seem to think speed is a bad stat. There were alot of sitreps i played in that were like nelson and jaeger-kunst musashi crossing half the map or more in one round while some heavy gets stuck in the back lines. I have seen like 4 people try and pilot the tarrasque and that thing is always too slow to function.
>>96609645>Pilot.netHoly fuck, these people are such retarded faggots. Do no ask them for advice on anything. They're unironically the equivalent of DnD 5e """players""" that only use the game to make sexualized otherkin versions of themselves and push politics. I can't understate how cancerous and retarded Pnet is. You are LITERALLY better off getting advice from Plebbit. It's THAT bad.
>>96609122tl;dr I never played D&D or any other tabletop game but I posted anyway because I am stupid.
>>96608943>One piece of advice I see bandied around is "Do not just have your combats take place in small, empty, white rooms. Use bigger maps and spice them up with interesting terrain and 3D elevation!"This is good advice for GMs, terrible advice for game designers. If your combat sucks and becomes terribly boring in a white room scenario, your combat system just sucks.
>>96609697I know you desperately want D&D to be good for the day you finally have friends and get to play, but take it from someone who played for years... it's just not a very good game. Brand recognition is all it has going for it. The actual product is crap.
>>96609574I like how many GMs are so fucking bad and playing systems so fucking bad you have to do oblivion-tier level scaling but applied to every element of the world.
>>96609716yeah
>>96609811Name one TTRPG where this isn't the case.
>>96609811This statement bleeds so much irony that it tells me everything I ever needed to know about you in and of itself.
>>96609811>not level scaling >bunch of easy filler content instead most games dont do scaling power anymore beacuse game designers are lazy and bad (how many games have a functional monster manual?) and beacuse more people play one shots and short scenarios instead of actual campaigns. You can still have very dangerous wandering monsters in a level scaled game but with some scaling you can reduce filler and increase fun.
>>96609811What amazing game does an amazing DM like you play? I'm genuinely curious. I want to be a better DM.
>>96609827Traveler. I accept your concession.
>>96609827things before third edition and MMORPGs. MUD era never had scaling.
>>96609852Saying you're genuinely curious while showing signs of insecurity and terminal D&D brainrot doesn't work, anon. I would not want shitty GMs in my community eitherway tho
>>96609843>most games dont do scaling power anymoreI wish this were true but they still do because CR is something ingrained in the RPG-sphere. Ironic that it was born for the laziest, worst, and dumbest designers to ever exist who were trying to make it even easier for the braindead GMs of the world. Oh well, at least they soak up all the braindead players too.
>>96609864Not even that same anon. But I did notice you're failing to answer and are just dodging the question. While continuing to defend D&D (which you clearly don't play, because you only play super secret good games instead) as if your life and shill paycheck depended on it. We're done here.
>>96609895>Obviously samefags>"You're defending D&D!!!">After he was just called a retard for having terminal D&D brainrotLul, filtered.
>>96609762>t. retarded nogames
Never thought I'd see the day when the D&Detard White Knight shows up on a thread that's mostly talking about Pathfinder and Lancer.
>>96608943An mobility or area control that the monsters can do, the melee combatants should be allowed the same.>>96609111To be fair, with the advent of the repeating rifle that happened in the real world too.>>96609100While you are correct conceptually, you being a faggot about it makes me dislike you.
>>96609923>durr durr D&D bad durr white knight derp.
>>96609875So your arguement is that CR is bad and has a negative effect on world building? Even though usually when printed CR only pretends to be functional? trying to field balanced encounters does warp a game but CR almost can't not exisit. If not organizing monsters by expected combat strength you would organize monsters by how much treasure or XP they are worth
>>96609944He won't answer you. He's just here to screech at anyone who's said anything bad about D&D, even though he supposedly only plays secret better games and would have no reason to even care what people are saying about D&D.In short, he's a troll.A particularly retarded one at that, but that's to be expected from the 5e crowd.
>>96609944>So your arguement is that CR is bad and has a negative effect on world building?CR has a negative effect on game design, period. >Even though usually when printed CR only pretends to be functional?"CR fails at its own design goals" is not a defense of CR, my guy, it only emphasizes how shit it is. The response to CR often being wishy washy has been to dumb down fights and monsters more with the intention that fighting should be the party and the monster wailing on eachother for X damage per turn each with the party statistically winning most of the time.>If not organizing monsters by expected combat strength you would organize monsters byHow about common sense and with the expectation that the players should NOT think it natural to rush into combat with the big scary monster because they're "meant to" fight it?
>>96610015some of us are here because we want to play a game chess with wizards and ninjas . The first time i saw dnd depicted in media was in disney's recess and my thought as a elementry child was 'wow that grid looks so cool'
>>96610047>some of us are here because we want to play a game chess with wizards and ninjasYeah and we're aware this is a tiny minority and not the bulk of the hobby. If you're interested in grid-based autism with perfectly balanced combats that make zero sense, there are games for that. Good luck finding the other four or five people that play them though.
>>96610073Lancer has one of the biggest communities in the hobby, despite being a pretty small game. Its top 5 or top 10 for TTRPG engagement. Very High player retention too
>>96610119>Lancer has one of the biggest communities in the hobbyLancer is closer to 5e, but this is also just untrue, it's pretty tiny.
I think the difference between 4e and Lancer is that the first has a melee as default asumption hile he later has a range as defoult assumption, because mechs will shoot guns and warriors will hit with swords. It's a genre expectation, Gundam has probably more melee conflict than ranged, but the idea that people have is that if there's tech you're gonna be shooting stuff.So games design around reacting to what players are expected to do. Which doesn't work when players are thinking about the game more than the genre.
>>96610159a weight of a community is not determine by size alone but also how vocal it is and how much impact it has. Most games with a similar reach to lancer have a fraction of the community is what I am trying to articulate.
>topicI try to avoid "melee hate" as you've described it.I prefer a melee approach in most games as a whole, not just TTRPGs, but I do my best to avoid favoring it through my games' mechanics. I try to make it a dangerous, but low-cost & rewarding approach, moreso with unarmed attacks. In my current project, they expend only 1 of a turn's 2 actions, but may be empowered by that 2nd action to strike stronger than 2 individual strikes. This empowered strike also enhances the chance to push/launch/smackdown (if the skill has any of those effects), & increases score gain from the attack.Without getting too off track, score is built up from dice rolls & eventually grants star points, which are spent on special skills.While the ranged-offense roles have the highest score gain, it's the melee roles that have the lowest star point cost to their specials. Melee attacks also have the lowest reflex penalty (especially unarmed strikes, which have next to no penalty), making them prime choices for reaction skills. Melee fighters are great on enemy phase for this reason, because if they can act before an offending foe, they can possibly invalidate the queued action by pushing them out of range, intercepting their movement, injuring the attacking body part; all sorts of cool things.Guns have melee attacks beat in the reflex department, having literally no penalty to shoot, but it takes 1 action to represent loading the weapon, & 1 more action to represent "priming" it, so on enemy phase, they're more godly than melee fighters, but just for the single shot, & reactions to prepare the weapon need perk investment.As far as guns go on the ranged attack spectrum, they're pretty powerful & have no range limitations, but are less powerful than a thrown burst of magic, given that skills with higher star point costs are inherently stronger than those without.
>>96609292It's not about competence. In DnD, melee warriors are supposed to be scary because they're lethal. That's why they're a priority for enemies to attack. The concept of "aggro" is taken from silly gamist computer games.
>>96610526>punish melee PCsThere are measures against melee options, but these are in place to give an incentive to invest in something other than melee.Spiked shells/armor, or even sharp weapons can punish incoming melee attacks. Unarmed strikes receive more punishment damage than weapons, but weapon attacks that are punished receive durability damage.Any attack that's blocked incurs durability damage, & even a direct hit will cause a little damage. Any attack that hits a certain material will also incur durability damage, & these instances stack."Nasty auras" tend to only exist on higher level foes, and can usually be bypassed through higher-cost special skills.A fighter who is worried about teleportation could invest in their own localized teleportation ability; my project isn't so much one that locks your characters into a specific archetype, as it is a simplified point-buy whose progression is based on perks. And some cool things about teleportation is that knowing it allows the user to declare reactions against a teleporting target, & melee options tend to have follow-up skills that attack for free after successful teleportation (you can literally "nothing personell" your enemies with the right perk investment).Flight? I have the "aerial state" for that. Having based some of my project around older Nintendo games (especially Mario), hero characters can jump & meet aerial foes for 1 turn (usually). Strike them on the way up, or strike them while in mid-air. Take one last swing at them before your hero falls back down to the ground level! It is harder & more dangerous to fight in mid-air, especially if you can't fly, but your melee heroes can still engage fliers.As far as a "frightened" condition goes, this is less of a zone of control, & more just a steady drain of score, then on the head's HP (HP represents fighting stamina, endurance, & luck, a frightening presence would definitely affect one's luck & mental endurance).
>>96608943>nooooo! you have to let me run up to you and physically hit you!lol. catch this spell, dweeb.
>>96610561>small flat empty white roomsThough much of distance & space is abstracted in my project, there's still a grid (measured in 10ft×10ft spaces). There are small (1/4 space), medium (1 space), & large (2×2 spaces) objects & mounds heroes & foes may either use for cover or mount, affecting some attacks, enabling some other stronger attacks, & affecting defenses. And of course, there's that additional layer of the aerial state I mentioned before.The point is, the elevation beyond the mounds & objects tends to be abstracted; just because it isn't tracked, doesn't mean it isn't there. As I type this, I may implement dips & valleys as sort of "reverse mounds" that can be occupied for defensive & offensive benefit.But yeah, I think I have plenty in place so that there's no "melee hate" in my game; melee is just another option, & there are counters to that option, just as there are counters to other options.It would be foolish to punch a spiked enemy, just as it would be foolish to try to out-reflex a skeletal swordsman with a fire spell, just as it would be foolish for a gunner to expose herself to a group of enemies that have her surrounded without loading & priming her weapon.Now cry at me about video games.
>>96610507>a weight of a community is not determine by size alonePFFFFFFFHAHAHAHAHAHAHAEverything you said was wrong and hilarious coping with the fact that it's still teensy and irrelevant.
>>96610565i played a nudist gish one time, that was fun
>>96608943Punishing Ranged by singling them out isn't any better than stuff that fucks over mele.My general approach is that Melee and Unarmed do more damage and have more mobility options while Ranged has the safety of being able to be in cover and attack from a distance.
>>96608943What prevents a character from moving outside the boundary of a map?
>>96608943Wait, your game is so bad it forces characters to choose between being good at hitting close things and hitting far away things? LOL
>>96610773sometimes the dungeon master
lol trash
>>96610773The DM will start stuttering and getting really embarrassed if that happens so most players avoid it out of kindness.
does no one else notice these threads are all reposted from reddit?
>>96609319D&D takes place in the era before firearms. Firearms are intentionally excluded so people can smack guys with swords. Arrows are not bullets, that's why people fought with swords in the era of arrows, but not in the era of bullets.
>>96611789>does no one else notice these threads are all reposted from reddit?I don't use plebbit, but it doesn't surprise me the slightest if tranny-infested /totallygay/ posters are 99% plebbitors.
>>96610507You literally said "one of the biggest". "Biggest" is an adjective, meaning "largest size". Fucking retard.
>>96609827Prowlers and Paragons.
>>96609839It's not ironic in the slightest, obviously.
>>96609811There is no system where you "have to" do level scaling. If you play 5e, you can put a bunch of level 1 characters on an island filled with nothing but CR 26 dragons. Nothing stops you from doing that, other than the same thing that stops you from doing it in games without CR: that it wouldn't be fun and your players would all end up dead.
>>96612262>uh no you totally can do itthe players tpk instantly>n-no just like, rule zero man-oberoni fallacy try again
>>96612319>the players tpk instantlyYes. They also TPK without CR. OD&D literally has an example in the book of a dragon doing so much damage that no reasonable max level character could survive, over 25 years before CR was invented.>oberoni fallacy try againDon't try using fallacies, you're too stupid to understand how they work.
>>96612345>Yes. They also TPK without CRIn what sense? As in if you design the game without CR? Because no, if it's designed without CR in mind and the players are not meant to scale their levels and win every fight by just rolling to attack 20 times against the level-appropriate encounter, they won't TPK unless they act retarded.>Don't try using fallaciesKek, seems you're not happy that your entire argument fell apart.
>>96612380As I just got done explaining with an example, it is retarded to attack an ancient dragon whether or not it has a CR number on its stat block. Please explain how CR existing means players must attack everything they see, since apparently you believe that.
>>96612392>As I just got done explaining with an example, it is retarded to attack an ancient dragon whether or not it has a CR number on its stat block.If you run up to it and decide to beat it with your sword, duh. Which is why CR sucks because it's built to encourage such behavior and modes of thinking, all fights become numbers you can just grind your way through when they're scaled to you.
>>96612406>Which is why CR sucks because it's built to encourage such behavior and modes of thinking, all fights become numbers you can just grind your way through when they're scaled to you.No, it's a GM facing tool to help norm encounters so you know that dragons are stronger than werewolves who are stronger than ogres who are stronger than goblins. You can plop down whatever CR monsters you want in your game, and let your players come up with whatever clever ideas they want. It will only cause a TPK if they are stupid, and it would do the same thing if some guy Thanos snapped the CR out of every 5e stat block that exists.
>>96612460The actual mechanical change from AD&D to 3e that annihilates players' ability to engage in anything other than facegrinding death matches is the removal of morale, by the way.
>>96612460>No, it's a GM facing tool to help norm encountersWhich is exactly the problem, because the entire game is built with the expectation that you explicitly level scale it towards the players because they are meant to run up, roll to attack, and that's it. Combat is akin to playing a video game rather than actually trying to win.>it would do the same thing if some guy Thanos snapped the CR out of every 5e stat block that exists.Duh dipshit, I already said you'd need to design the game without CR rather than just strip it out and expect anything to change. What are you, fuckin stupid?
>>96612494>Which is exactly the problem, because the entire game is built with the expectation that you explicitly level scale it towards the players because they are meant to run up, roll to attack, and that's it.No, it is not. Even in OD&D, the designers explicitly sequestered monsters of different danger levels to different levels of the dungeon. You did not throw a bunch of dragons on the first level of the dungeon because it would cause a TPK. Knowing how strong monsters is is useful information in designing a dungeon.
>>96612503>No, it is notYes, it literally is. Crawford even talks about how monsters are designed for you to run up and wack them so long as you're level appropriate. You've admitted OD&D doesn't work like this, dumbass.>You did not throw a bunch of dragons on the first level of the dungeon becauseBecause it made no sense*It had nothing to do with "Levels" and "Preventing TPKs". OD&D would kill your ass dead constantly if all you did was run into fights and try to smash your way through them, it's meant to because that's not how you win.
>>96612516RAW, it is impossible to meet any of the following on the first level of a dungeon in OD&D:Trolls, Superheroes (high level Fighters), Wyverns, Spectres, Mummies, Minotaurs, Manticores, Cockatrices, Sorcerers (high level magic-users), Hydras, Medusae, Giants, Dragons, Basilisks, Gorgons, Chimeras, Vampires, Lords (high level fighters), Balrogs, Wizards (high level magic-users), Evil High Priests (high-level clerics), or Purple Worms.You cannot find one single dragon on the first level of the dungeon, RAW! This "makes no sense"? It makes no sense for a powerful creature to live closer to the surface, where it can go find food? It makes no sense for an evil cleric to live close to the surface so he can go make converts? Trolls and beasts like basilisks and cockatrices all live deep underground?No, it is like this because these things would kill you without you being able to do jack shit about it. Stop parroting what other people have said as some bizarre cargo cult understanding of game design, and try actually reading books, then thinking about their contents, and considering them from multiple angles.
>>96611789We've had openly redditor OPs like puckee for years now
>>96612534Yeah, because it makes no sense for those to be on the first level of a dungeon.>B-but muh food-They're magical and are attracted to denser magic, putting aside the fact that you're objectively wrong and they can appear on the surface, dumbass.>No, it is like this because It is like this because it is sensible. You are expected to design a world that is sensible and not based on video game constraints.Your whining in general is dumb and shows that you've never even played, because regardless you aren't expected to survive up-front encounters. You will easily lose if you try to fight enemies "fairly".
>>96612534>No, it is like this because these things would kill you without you being able to do jack shit about it.Anon you obviously have never played OD&D, because you know what can appear on the 1st level of a Dungeon according to the *guidelines* you're using?Wraiths.Wraiths will TPK any 1st level party, and even many high level parties, because they're immune to being hit except with silver or magic weapons. This can be tougher to kill than a dragon. This and a couple dozen other monsters are something you can run into immediately, and you can't do jack shit to beat them. You have no idea what you're talking about.
>>96610526>Melee attacks also have the lowest reflex penalty (especially unarmed strikes, which have next to no penalty)>Guns have melee attacks beat in the reflex department, having literally no penalty to shoot,Learn from 2e and THAC0, anon, and how it was corrected in 3e forward. No one likes penalties or counting negatives. Make pistols and unarmed, for example, have -the highest- ratings and have other weapons have a -lower- rating. Otherwise interesting stuff; I'm also doing Aerial state in my rpg.
>>96608943InterrestingThinking about it I think you’re mostly right.Making things difficult in melee is much more intuitiv.That beeing said, as someone who uses dangerous auras Aswell,I mostly use them to have monsters go at squishy ranged characters, trying to get characters into melee that don’t want to be in melee.Overall however yes it is much harder to disincentivise ranged characters from hiding back.Cover is 4es go to answer but that can ofthen be circumvented
>>96609122Anon you’re discribing things 4e does.Opportunity attacks once a turn, who do you think invented that?>lancerWhat game do you think lancer is based on?Spend less time on /tg/ 4e isn’t actually worldo Warcraft simulatorICON and Lancer specifically are 4e likes
>>96608943This is why you need penalties for frying into or in melee with ranged weapons in a game Maybe a chance of friendly fire if you fuck it up Otherwise if left unchecked ranged characters if they get powerful enough will dominate most tactical considerations and it turns into rocket tag Modern editions of d&d and any derivative is particularly bad at this Personally the ttrpgs I’ve played that have felt tactical were closer to xcom and had gun combat and not very many hit points A lot of hiding rolling around prone with line of fire playing a big consideration which is a concept alien to d&d players Even in d&d With how to tactically counter backline ranged attackers manipulation of line of fire is key Have enemies use spells like fog cloud or similar abilities in open areas use ambushes and stealth units to your advantage to get into a nasty position vs squishy back liners In more enclosed spaces choke points funnels and limited amounts of space to make angles either hard for all ranged attackers or just ranged intruders with ranged defenders having an advantage and retreating further into the space In a white room if you turn your brain off powerful ranged shit defaults as the best option But if you have enemies apply just a little bit of itThere are also large area of effect attacks which do not give as much of a fuck about direct line of fire but some of the things here still apply
>>96612732>No one likes penalties or counting negativesIf I enjoy it, if it makes sense to me, and if I'm the only one playing the game, why does this matter to me? And I'm not trying to be dismissive at all; I understand completely that most people tend to dislike seeing a - next to things on their character sheet.I get the sentiment, but it just doesn't bother me.I was remiss to mention, in my massive walls of text, that the agility of the user's head plus the agility of the user's attacking body part provides their reflex bonus. So you have the body's natural and trained parameters reduced by the time it takes to actually perform the move, by worn and/or held equipment, and any energy channeling that's involved.It just doesn't make sense to me to have something that weighs upon its wearer or takes more time to charge offer a positive value to something representing action speed/priority.>Otherwise interesting stuffI appreciate that.Thank you for reading my text dump and not jumping on my back about just playing a video game; it means a lot to me that you gave my posts earnest time and thought.
>>96608943>thread about how GM encounter design unthinkingly disadvantages melee characters in 4e and ICON but unrelated to the system>anons sperg out about system design in 5eI hate this board sometimes
>>966130875e is the game everyone here plays.
>>96609151>lancertroons are smash bros melee groomertroonsThat explains SO much
>>96612479Nobody used morale.
>>96612636>>96612699Yeah, you're both so smart. The only reason the more powerful creatures are on the higher Level charts and show up only deeper into the dungeon is because Gygax and Arneson thought it would be realistic or something, not because they're more dangerous and thus get secreted away from PCs. Fuck off.>Your whining in general is dumb and shows that you've never even played, because regardless you aren't expected to survive up-front encounters.This is just revisionism. The players were wargamers, we have accounts from them at the time, they absolutely "just fought" monsters. You've created a mythology of a game that never existed.
>>96613508It was in every single edition until 3e for a reason. Its absence encourages players to do facegrind deathmatches because that's what all the enemies now do.
>>96608943Have you ever thought of playing with real people instead of running your weird ass solo white room experiments, Edna?>>96609165It's touhoufag. He doesn't actually play, he engages in weird simulations and thought experiments to prove points no one has ever asked about.
Designing my own OSR heartbreaker.How much should I nerf ranged weapon to hit or damage?I already grant to hit boni from level ups only to fighters. Thieves, magic-users and clerics don't get none. Maybe give parry and shield bonuses to fighters as well. Can't quite decide.
>>96614363>not because they're more dangerousConsidering a Wraith will kill most parties at any level and can be found on the first floor... No, literally nothing to do with danger lol.You should try playing the game sometime. You might learn something.
>>96614419>It's touhoufag. He doesn't actually playThis is the most unaware post I've ever seen.
>>96608943i think it is justified. just giving melee more raw power is the most boring way to fix the problem
>>96609122I'd argue there are many non-DnD systems that punish melee. For example, in GURPS, melee is generally bad if ranged exists.
>>96614371It was removed in 3e because the people that played 2e didn't use it.
>>96608943Depends on the combat paradigm of the game. In a historical setting, ranged attacks may be good for disrupting distant foes or killing animals, but are likely to be inefficient against armour. In contemporary settings, ranged attacks are king with most hand-to-hand combat happening by accident or in non-permissive environments with limited weapons. The idea of artificially buffing melee to widen the number of builds available is absolutely insane. Combat should be war, not sport.
>>96615351>In a historical setting, ranged attacks may be good for disrupting distant foes or killing animals, but are likely to be inefficient against armour*invents the handgonne*oops, no more knights!
>>96609122Lancer is utter fucking dogshit. Same bounded accuracy type bullshit as D&D 5e, the whole game is just a slow ass mess.>opportunity attacks every turnIt's called combat reflexes faggot. Also being limited on that adds more tactical depth, instead of letting you just spam reflexive swings.>melee having higher damageTrue in D&D too. Bow deals 1d8. Greatsword deals 2d6. You're wrong retard.>knockback effects on meleeSo you knock them out of melee with you when the whole point is closing? Retarded.>actual talents for ParryingLiterally a feat in 5e D&D>a cover systemLiterally a thing in 5e>line of sight rules that makes it easy to escape ranged camping bullshit in a way more meaningful than D&D's retarded "+2AC" rulesLike what retard? Flat out total cover? And it's +4 AC not +2. >grapple rules that actually workDoubtful considering the rest of the system barely does.>Yeah, Lancer's authors are absolute faggots and suck at writing lore,They suck at writing a game, too. They couldn't even make a game I'd rather play than 5e. I'm not even joking I would rather play D&D 5e than another session of Lancer. I'm glad my group played 3 sessions of it then forgot about it.
>>96615693>It's called combat reflexes faggot.feat>True in D&D tooincorrect, archery fighting style + sharpshooter outclasses anything melee can do >like what retard?the rules lol >A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.>Doubtfuloh so you haven't read or played it got it lol>They suck at writing a game, tooyou wouldn't know about anything except sucking fag get dabbed on
>>96608943This has only really been an issue for me in games like DnD where the primary defense is AC/A Bigger Number instead of DR. Even if we take a look at more lethal examples like GURPS or Mekton you can have melee people be viable with ranged character simply by giving them the DR to take hits as they close in.>>96615169I'd argue it's only bad in GURPS if you're repeating firearms. Anything prior to that and you can get armor sufficient to stop most if not all the damage and the time between shots are significant enough that you can close the distance to attack.
>>96615726You ignored half the shit I said Including where I said a single AoO adds tactical depth not takes it away.Sorry your melee defender build doesn't get to make 50 attacks a round by default.I'm sorry cavalrymen in history were unable to pass by a single pikeman because he would get 50 attacks in a blur and kill them all.Fucking retard.>the rules lolElaborate on them for me, our combats only had a few small buildings in them.>oh so you haven't read or played it got it lolPlayed 3 sessions as a Minotaur started at LL2 for whatever reason we all had the Whore-ass mechs because they wanted to try them. I don't give a shit what you think, I played the game. Stop ad homineming.>incorrect, archery fighting style + sharpshooter outclasses anything melee can doNot at the range most D&D combats take place at and not where a reckless attacking barbarian is involved. Can't really do that at range.
>>96615938>You ignored half the shit I saidCuz it was irrelevant>Including where I said a single AoO adds tactical depthnah makes it boring, everyone goes where they want to lol>I'm sorry cavalrymen in history were unable to pass by a single pikemanyou think cavalrymen charged into pike formations? LOL>Elaborate on themHAHAHAHA YOU REALLY DIDN'T READ THEMyou're mad over rules you're too dumb to even read LMAO. Why would I bother spoonfeeding a useless tit like you?>Not at the range most D&D combats take place atPFFFT you don't play and you can just take crossbow expert if you're too stupid to stay out of melee, DUMBASS.
>>96608943This sounds like a symptom of the fact that most tabletop games place the players in the role o f an aggressor which naturally puts them up against the defensive attributes of the other side and by that fact gives ranged combat the advantage.If the roles were reversed and the players were on the defense then a melee heavy part would have a much better time as the their opponents would need to come towards them.
>>96616016Eh, not really. Even as a defender it's better to have range.
>>96612392No, it's only retarded if an ancient dragon is too powerful for the player characters to defeat, which depends entirely on the capabilities of the characters, the capabilities of the ancient dragon, and the ruleset.
>>96615980>Cuz it was irrelevantNot an argument>nah makes it boring, everyone goes where they want to lolWho cares?>you think cavalrymen charged into pike formations? LOLDid I say pike formations? I said a single pikeman. Read my post.>HAHAHAHA YOU REALLY DIDN'T READ THEMI played the game.>you're mad over rules you're too dumb to even read LMAO. Why would I bother spoonfeeding a useless tit like you?You're the one who brought them up like I give a fuck.>PFFFT you don't play and you can just take crossbow expert if you're too stupid to stay out of melee, DUMBASS.I played more of Lancer and D&D 5e both than you have played any TTRPG, and they aren't even my most played games.
>>96616121>Not an argumentNot an argument.>Who cares?Not an argument.>Did I say pike formations? I said a single pikeman.They didn't go to war with one guy wielding a pike dumbass. Can't believe you think this and that they charged into pikes lmao>I played the game.Nah.>You're the one who brought them upNah, different anon. You're the dipshit who didn't read them and is mad LOL>I played more of Lancer and D&D 5e both than you haveNo you haven't and its painfully obvious, you didn't even know how ranged works in 5e LMAO
>>96615853I don't know. I get where you're coming from TL4 and below. But once you get to T5 it really becomes too much for melee to handle. I'm not saying it can't work, just that there's virtually no pay off to it. It's a flaw in most every universal system, so I can't fully blame them.
>>96616144>They didn't go to war with one guy wielding a pike dumbass.It was an example you fucking mongoloid.>No you haven't and its painfully obvious, you didn't even know how ranged works in 5e LMAOI do know how it "works" retard just disagreed with your retarded conclusion.>NahI accept your concession.
>>96616723>It was an exampleA retarded example revealing how retarded you are.>I do know how it "works" Obviously not, you don't even know basic feats LOL>I accept your concession.I accept your concession.
>>96610773You politely tell the player to leave if he has no interest to participate in the game at hand.
>>96616896in the video game at hand*
>>96616896Did you mean to reply to someone else?
>>96615459A) plate armour was often bulletproof at relatively close ranges. B) Early firearms were not good weapons to use against cavalry, as it required a lot of nerve to hold against a charge and the terminal effect was not a sure way to deter horses compared to pikes. A bunch of arquebusiers in a defended static position would be a hard nut to crack, but they would be giving up the initiative to mounted forces who could manoeuvre around them with impunity.
>>96616492TL 5 is kinda exactly what I mean, that's when you start seeing repeating firearms (Single Action Army, Winchester 1873, and even earlier stuff like roman candle repeating muskets), plus armor starts to fall behind there. I actually personally think it levels off at around TL 8ish, because while you start seeing assault rifles and SMGs, you can get nearly all round DR 12 protection which defangs 5.56 rifles and is very reliably against pistol calibers. I will agree it's not totally balanced and the pay off isn't amazing, but in my opinion it makes the playing field a lot more even compared to DnD style AC systems where your armor doesn't really matter beyond being harder to hit.
>>96616032Ture but at the very least if your on defense they need to come to you negating most terrain issues.
>>96618801No they don't, they can just use ranged weapons. Or simply not engage at all and accomplish their goal without fighting you.
>>96609122>don't play dnd, play even gayer dnd that was designed to be played with a fucking computer
>>96612951Np at all. Good luck with your system and remember to actually finish it and publish it! I would buy it and I know I'm not the only one.
>>96618807Buddy, if they need to get through you to get where they need to go and you have a nice solid wall, unless your already playing hyper magic rocket tag you can jsut hang out.
Nah.
>>96613127Imagine the smell
Newfag here, where does the name Edna come from? I know their posting style is so distinctive you can immediately identify Edna but I have no clue where the name come from.
>>96619438Reddit username EarthSeraphEdna
Edna did you figure out the turtling on objectives problem from last episode? Seems inter related to your current boggle.
>>96622303In what system in particular? ICON, a fantasy grid-based tactical RPG with "capture zone" objectives, has a decent amount of forced movement. Draw Steel also has a "capture zone" objective, however unrefined the mechanics may be, and forced movement is omnipresent across the game.
I'm sick and tired of this """""""""""low fantasy""""""""""" """""""""""""""""realistic""""""""""""""" slop where martials can only be dirty unwashed mud farmers living in squalor. If your had martials that could do more than stand and attack with a rusty dagger, maybe they'd be better in combat.
>>96622454Play 4e.
>>96619438You can also just search >>96619487with spaces and find the character it's referencing.
>>96609923And I never thought a text-based medium would have so many illiterate retards like you, but here we are.
DnD has had this issue for decades. Even in 3.5, you could simply five foot step away every turn and ruin every martial's life. You can only really rely on DMs not being cruel about it.
>>96623421You five foot step away and take action. He five foot steps after you and pursues.???
>>96619438It's Touhoufag's reddit account
>>96623568I know this is a strange concept to you but 3E relied on full attacking. The best way to be a jerk to melee characters in 3E was just forcing them to use basic movement to stay in melee range. Then they can only attack once per turn no matter how high their BAB was.
